New York Senator Calls For The Torture Of Boston Bombing Subject

200px-Gregball2UnknownNew York State Senator Greg Ball (R) took little time after the Boston bombing to call for the torture of 19-year-old Dzokhar Tsarnaev. Ball went to Twitter to call for the teenager to be tortured in the name of all of the values we hold dear as Americans.


Ball sent out a tweet stating “So, scum bag #2 in custody. Who wouldn’t use torture on this punk to save more lives?” It is the new normal in America. Ball feels entirely comfortable in speaking of torture in the most casual terms. It also shows how torture is always the answer since you cannot say for sure that there are not more bombs after an attack.

Later, Ball dismissed notions that torture (which is a federal crime and a violation of international law) is wrong: “If people find that offensive, they’re going to have to check their own conscience,” he reportedly said.

Later his office issued a statement:

170px-AbuGhraibScandalGraner55

“Terrorists play by a different set of rules by manipulating the greatest strengths of our open society against us. One of the questions to be asked is this: is “torture” ever justified in the war against terror, if it can save lives? I am not shy in joining those who say yes, and I believe we must give those tasked with protecting us every constitutional and effective tool to do so.”

“Every constitutional and effective tool” for Ball includes a tool long defined as a war crime. I have previously written about the corruption of American values on torture.

The willingness of politicians like Ball to embrace torture is a product not simply of the Bush Administration’s legitimation of torture but the Obama Administration’s refusal to prosecute anyone for torture. As I have written before (here and here), the Obama Administration has destroyed some of the core Nuremberg principles, particularly in its revisal of the “superior orders defense” to excuse U.S. officials. The failure to prosecute has allowed those who ordered the torture program to continue to speak out in favor of torture. It has destroyed any credibility of the United States in demanding prosecutions in other countries and given support for politicians like Ball to rally supporters behind a banner of torture.

Ball’s bio states that he “grew up on the family estate of Stephen and Jean Kennedy-Smith, sister of President John F. Kennedy, where his parents were both caretakers. He is the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans, Homeland Security, and Military Affairs.” He is a graduate of United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) and is currently completing his Thesis for his Master’s of Arts in Liberal Studies with a concentration in International Affairs from Georgetown University.

Source: Raw Story

190 thoughts on “New York Senator Calls For The Torture Of Boston Bombing Subject

  1. Graduate of the USAFA? Wonder what they taught him about the constitution and effectiveness of torture? Or maybe he should have a sitdown with McCain whom I believe said torture does not result in truth or works.

  2. Graduate of the USAFA, isn’t that one of the military academies that has a “Are your the right kind of Christan test” for their cadets.. I guess they were too busy reading the Bible when they should have been reading the CONSTITUTION!.

    Some times in my dark dreams I think may be people who love torture should have an opportunity to experience it; then I wake up and give myself a good talking to about the Constituion. But that’s just me.

  3. I can see how growing up on a Kennedy estate would make you a Republican, but this is a despicable statement.

  4. I love it when they double down. Because much like the fictional Col. Aldo Raine, “We like our Nazis in uniform. That way we can spot ’em just like that.” That brown shirt looks good on you, Ball.

  5. …..Is Ball Chechen by any chance? …(My apology to Chechnya…)

    He sounds like a “hands on” type of guy..I guess he didn’t pick up any ethical perspectives from his name dropping self-proclaimed Kennedy connection; …but he does remind me of “Cheney” in many ways. I think he should be censured.

    .

  6. Source materials:
    http://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_index_subjects/Censure_vrd.htm

    Censure

    “Less severe than expulsion, a censure (sometimes referred to as condemnation or denouncement) does not remove a senator from office. It is a formal statement of disapproval, however, that can have a powerful psychological effect on a member and his/her relationships in the Senate.”

    Who Has Been Censured in the Senate?

    Read more about censure and expulsion and see a list of expelled and censured Senators.

  7. Onlooker from Troy…And what public office did Joe hold? do you have a clue what you are talking about?

    Are you presuming to denounce the Kennedy influence in American political and cultural history? On the world?

  8. This guy should be made to sit and watch the Gerald Baron’s documentary, “Lost Airmen of Buchenwald”, until he understands it. Hermann Goering had more ethics than this graduate of the USAAF. That’s sad.

  9. “…call for the teenager to be tortured in the name of all of the values we hold dear as Americans….”

    At last check, America holds no value in torture. Obviously, conservatives don’t share the same values as America the nation or as WE, the majority of American people, but then we’ve known that for a quite a while.

  10. Joe Kennedy was 44th Ambassador to the United Kingdom, 1938-1940, who resigned after stating,”Democracy is finished in England. It may be here, [in the US].”

  11. Anonymously Yours 1, April 22, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    So can we torture or should we be able to torture people who have violated the laws…..
    ==========================================
    His new nick name may become Humpy Ball:

    Ronald Reagan was in office as U.S. President from 1981 – 1989.

    In 1983 his DOJ prosecuted a republican Texas Sheriff for the crime of waterboarding:

    In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. [NPR Link]

    Humpy Parker was at the center of a law enforcement scandal in the 1970s and 80s that was finally interrupted in 1983 when an undercover FBI agent was arrested and subjected to water torture and other illegal tactics. Gary Parker was a patrol sergeant at the time the corruption scandal was uncovered. Parker’s deputies testified at trial that they would park on U.S. 59 and watch for “long-hairs” driving vehicles displaying a bumper sticker for Houston radio station K-101.

    “Humpy” Parker died in 1999 of cancer after he served a 10-year sentence in federal prison. The American Civil Liberties Union also won a judgment against San Jacinto County for three Kentucky residents and a Baytown man. The county was ordered to pay $40,000 per year until each person named in the class action lawsuit received $1,500. News reports at the time indicated thousands of people may have joined the class action lawsuit. The long-running corruption scheme was the subject of a book and movie, “Terror on I-59.” [East Texas News]

    (Amazon Askville). Dick “Chain Man” Cheney is openly advocating the use of waterboard torture in the United States, which is the same as telling people to commit felonies.

    He and his cronies, like Rush Limbaugh, are talking about how Ronald Reagan is their mentor, as they try to justify the federal crime of torture.

    Ronald Reagan would have been their jailer, not their mentor.

    (President Reagan Puts Cheney In Jail). Humpy Ball should be careful, because someone may step up to join him in a conspiracy to torture, which is a federal crime too.

  12. Well Dredd… Thanks… I knew that at one time….I was not a Reagan supporter at all…. But the more the US goes down its sink hole….. I’m seeing him as the last good presidents…..

  13. I just read the DOJ will be seeking the death penalty. At the news conferences last week I kind of liked the US attorney, Carmen Ortiz. The different LEO’s @ those pressers were all male political/bureaucrats for the most part loving the attention. Ms. Ortiz seemed like she would rather be @ her desk compiling info. And, when prematurely asked but a reporter if the death penalty would be sought she gave a good response saying much information needed to be assessed prior to that decision. Well, I’m sure she worked all weekend but this seems like a shoot from the hip decision today. I personally don’t believe in the death penalty. But, I don’t wear that on my sleeve and I NEVER preach about it. My beliefs are based on religion and years of experience in the criminal justice system. Although many of my beliefs have become more moderate from my liberal youth; that belief, which was solely relgious in my youth, has been reinforced by real world experience. The practical implications of my belief is I will never be a juror on a capital case. I imagine most folks here also don’t believe in capital punishment but I don’t remember any discussions since I’ve been here. I know I’ll find out! I hope and pray the discussion is civil.

  14. nick,

    In re the death penalty:

    You’d find a mixed bag going by previous conversations. Some are for it when certain legal standards have been met, some are opposed only on practical grounds such as cost of appeals having risen well above the cost of lifetime incarceration (my personal position), some are staunchly against it for a variety of ethical and/or religious reasons. However, I wouldn’t say any one view dominates over another.

  15. Death Penalty = Carmen Ortiz = Strategy to get a confession = Her M.O.

    I have no doubt Nick kind of liked her……his kind of person.

  16. The chances of him even being able to meet the competency criteria to stand trial is suspect at this point. Death penalty? Somebody is blowing smoke.

  17. Bruce

    You implied that some high ethics would be imparted upon him by associating with the Kennedy clan. Not so much.

  18. Some folks are blinded by hate and incapable of reading..even Ivy Leaguers. Still stinging from being called out on the horribly insensitive “Enjoyed the day off” comment. Read it again, innuendo man. Maybe you need to revert to diagramming sentences. You are diminishing yourself on almost a daily basis. Remember, resentment ends up destroying the person w/ the resentment, not the person who is resented. They remain unscathed.

  19. OS,

    From what I’ve gathered… Federally it’s minimal competency…. And if they need to force feed him drugs in order to make him competent they will do that as well…. Federally, he can be executed….. If he was tried in Massachusetts …. They have no official death penalty on the books…. I might be wrong…. But that’s from what I’ve seen…

  20. One should not mistake dislike for resentment.

    They are not the same thing.

    dislike /dɪsˈlʌɪk/, v.,

    :feel distaste for or hostility towards:

    resent /rɪˈzɛnt/, v.,

    :feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person):

    Mike is never bitter although I have seen him indignant with circumstances or actions, but never with a person. To be clear:

    indignant /ɪnˈdɪgnənt/, adj.,

    :feeling or showing anger or annoyance at what is perceived as unfair treatment:

    Words have meaning.

    Just sayin’.

  21. Update: The DOJ has now come out w/ a statement saying while they have charged the defendant w/ weapons of mass destruction, which carries the maximum sentence of death, they have still not decided whether to seek execution, contrary to what was being reported. Maybe Ms. Ortiz has not shot from the hip. I believe however Eric “The Cannabis Sheriff” Holder has to sign off on seeking execution, but I’m not certain. The barrsiters here may want to weigh in on that. There will be some politics since Ma. is not a death penalty state. However, as we know, Federal law trumps the state, and he is obviously being prosecuted Federally.

  22. “Never” should always be used w/ extreme caution. To say “Mike is never bitter” is unequivocal and if true, would put him on the same level as Jesus Christ. Words do indeed have meaning.

  23. Let’s stop this childish behavior! Please, for the sake of everyone here. I’ve made this request previously but it has fallen on deaf ears. We need someone who these gents will respect to step up to the plate and talk some sense to them. I’m trying to stop this horseshit, but I will not allow them to take swings w/o swinging back. I’m not Ghandi.

  24. AY,

    I’m kind of with OS on this one, but for a slightly different reason: pure tactics. Seeking the death penalty in this case has no downside for prosecutors. He’s not a sympathetic defendant and nothing the defense bar can do is likely to change that. If it’s overreaching and they don’t get it? He’s still going away for life. So why not? If they get their death verdict, he’s still going away for a very long time as his appeals dwindle away. This, of course, presumes he’s found guilty. We don’t know the extent or nature of his involvement yet. If he were coerced and there is proof? That’s a game changer for instance. But from the prosecution’s angle, there is no visible downside at this time.
    ************
    nick,

    Mike isn’t Jesus, but he is a really nice guy. I also saw him walk across a margarita once, but never water. And for the record, he is never bitter to the best of my knowledge and I’ve known him for years. Cranky a few times, sure, but not bitter.

    bitter /ˈbɪtə/, adj.,

    2: feeling or showing anger, hurt, or resentment because of bad experiences or a sense of unjust treatment:

    What do you know. Words do have meaning. Given some of his experiences, Mike could be bitter, but he isn’t. He doesn’t complain because “it’s just so unfair to Mike” or show hurt, anger or resentment for his bad experiences. Instead, he learns from them and is grateful for the knowledge. See, that’s what most people do when the world feeds them bad experiences. Others are incapable of learning for a variety of reasons.

  25. Nick,

    You’re the angry one and your constant innuendo’s about me show it. I don’t resent you, how could I? To me you are little more than an obnoxious clown, who as Gene and I have pointed out from your beginning here, cannot construct a logical argument. Angry at you? I think you’re hilarious. :) Most times I don’t even bother to respond to you and your infantile behavior.

  26. I watched the video of Senator Ball defending his view on torture. The rational of “if it saves one innocent life” then it’s worth it is the foundation for his belief that torture is justified.

    It is exactly the same justification employed by President Obama and VP Biden in their quest to pass gun control legislation. Though I can eaily live with some of the proposed legislation and think that background checks is a rational place to start, I resent the Hell out of the argument for any legislation being founded on one hypothetical innocent life.

    All regulation impinges on something or burdens somebody. It’ s appropriate to weigh the utility of the thing being regulated against the probability that there will be a predictable risk that someone may be injured or killed. Guranteed safety, just liked guranteed prosperity, isn’t attainable nor should legislation be pursued on the basis that things that have great utility should be dumbed down to the point that a products usefulness is unreasonably compromised.

    Any time a politician wants to support an argument for legislation based upon it providing the greatest benefit to the most Americans, I’m willing to listen to their case. If however the legislation or action is predicated on the notion that it just might, save one innocent life, I will remain suspicious of both the proposed legislation and the motive of the proponnent.

    Senator Ball’s preference for torturing a suspect on the speculative notion that it just might save one innocent life is not something that I am willing to abandon either our Constitutional princpals or treaty obligations for. I think Senator Ball’s Jack Bauer fantasy of him and his baseball bat alone in a room with some suspect for a half hour is repugnant to those values that we claim distinguish our political system from inferior ones. Respect for rule of law, and I don’t mean John Woo, Dick Cheney or Jay Bybee’s law, is something that I believe all elected officials should demonstrate. Senator Ball’s contempt for law in my mind makes him unfit to serve in the Senate. It will be interesting to see if NY voters see fit to re-elect him.

  27. Getting back on track… this New York State Senator needs a little refresher course in what the law here in the states says about torture. We have prosecuted citizens, our soldiers and the soldiers of our countries for waterboarding and other torture techniques. Maybe Mr. Ball should read the book Unbroken and see the descriptions of torture under the hands of the Japanese during WWII.
    And as OS stated, the lost airmen of Buchenwald lived past WWII because a Nazi didn’t want his own fellow airmen tortured due to improper treatment of the airmen in Buchenwald.

  28. Ball is a NYS Senate legislator, not in Congress. His district is northern Westchester, eastern Putnam, and south eastern Dutchess counties. Hope he loses next time out.

  29. NICK:

    that Ortiz woman is a bit hard core. She brought all kinds of charges against that young hacker who killed himself. Most of which seemed over the top since he posted material (most of) which I believe was paid for with tax payer money.

    I think she is probably a POS.

  30. Gene,

    I took it OS was questioning his competency…. If so, the Feds have no problem executing incompetent folks…. Even if the have to force feed them drugs to make them competent before they execute them….

    As you are aware Gene, I am against the death penalty unless…. And unless it involves a rape resulting in death…. Or abuse of a child…. Then shoot the bast$&$@ on the spot……

    So you see there’s really no disagreement…

  31. Bron, I didn’t know she was THAT US Attorney. I know that case was discussed here, but I know little of it. I thought that case was out of NYC but I defer to you on it. Knowing this MIGHT help explain the unfounded and incorrect Death Penalty=Carmen Ortiz- yada yada previously spewed. She is also “disliked” maybe even more than myself. From what I read here it seems she was overzealous on that case. Hopefully this shitbird doesn’t kill himself, @ least until we get some info from him.

  32. [music]
    Hail New Yorkies, New Yorkies Rule the Waves!
    Hail Newewww Yorkies Rule da Waves.

    Went in dumb, coooommme out dumb toooo!
    Hail New eeewww Yorkies Rule da waves.

  33. Unbroken helped me understand the hatred some good people, including a couple uncles, had toward the Japanese. Clausen Miller had a sr. partner who would not allow the purchase of any Japanese equipment. When we[myself and my partner] purchased video cameras for surveillance, we had to hide the fact they were Japanese. The partner had fought in the Pacific.

  34. Nick:

    http://jonathanturley.org/2013/01/15/prosecutor-of-aaron-swartz-linked-to-another-suicide-of-defendant/

    Carmen M. Ortiz, I guess I am assuming she is the only attorney with that name in the justice department.

    Why kill the kid, honestly his brother probably put him up to it and the brother was probably brain washed by some radical Imam. He is the one ultimately responsible for the destruction all those lives and those broken bodies.

    Send a hell fire missile up his a$$.

  35. nick:

    I read that book and I dont buy Japanese anymore, that was some book and one tough man. Although I never did except a camera once. I get my cars [at least for my daughter] and electronics from the Koreans.

  36. First of all the kid can not talk because he was wounded in the throat by a LEO’s bullet. So how is he supposed to reply to waterboarding? With a notepad?

    The scuttlebutt (i.e Wayne Madsen ex-NSA agent) says that the brother was connected to an actual conspiracy The kid was supposedly blindly following his brother who was “radicalized” by Caucasus Emirate of Doku Umarov, a Chechen guerrilla leader who has been responsible for a number of deadly terrorist bombings inside Russia (source: http://www.waynemadsenreport.com).

    So what will the kid reveal? He was compartmentalized and “keep like a mushroom” (kept in the dark and feed manure – disinformation). That’s why torture NEVER works. OK… yes you get A STORY but you are getting a pre-arranged verifiable story designed for just in case you get caught story. The Russian KGB perfected this method decades ago (i.e. Google Lt. Col. Yuri Ivanovich Nosenko). Kept the CIA chasing rabbit holes for 5 years!

    So this brilliant Senator from NY is showing his benighted understanding of EIT (extreme interrogation techniques). And he is on the committee that are supposed to know this stuff. That is scary that these so called leaders are so stupid.

    Don’t let the movie ZERO DARK THIRTY fool you. Torture does not work – ever. Unfortunately the woman that inspired the first illegal CIA EIT used on “suspected” SW Asian insurgents is now the head of our CIA’s NCS and her boss (DCI Brennan) is the guy who supported this and even introduced killer Predator Drones.

    You do know that UAV Predators are now authorized for CONUS airspace? Wait for the next midair collision or near miss. Oops! Already happened last in March at NYC JFK airport!

  37. I do think that we need to ridicule the punk deffendant and his ways. The caps backwards, the backpack and the slouch. The hoodie. All these items of American punk kid human behavior need to be ridiculed. Trayvon too. We need to pen a nickname on this guy. I say: Punk Puss. Chimine in here on this one folks. And charge him with the felony murder of his Muslim Brother. That ought to rouse the Brothers. And when he goes to prison and gets the question: What are ya here for? He has to say,” Count One I killed my brother. Count Two a little boy. Count Three a jogger, Count Four another innocent jogger. Count Five, maybe you inmates will approve of this one, I killed a cop.”
    “Yeah, but Punk Puss, caps backwards dont work in da joint. Meet SquirtyPunker, he has something for ya.”

    Spread the word. His name is Punk Puss.

  38. While state laws for competency to stand trial may vary somewhat, the Dusky case is controlling:
    “sufficient present ability to consult with his lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding” and a “rational as well as factual understanding of the proceedings against him.”
    Dusky v. United States, 362 U.S. 402 (1960)

    Massachusetts law does not specify what the psychologist or psychiatrist must use as a standard, so one has to assume they use the Dusky criteria.

    http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXVII/Chapter123/Section15

    Criminal responsibility is a completely different assessment from competency. If he has had a brain injury, it will affect both competency and responsibility. In what way, I have no idea. In fact, no one will until he is assessed. I will say this. The brain is the most fragile organ of the body. When any kind of major trauma happens to the head, bone transmits energy throughout the head, even if the originating trauma is not directly to the brain case.

  39. Just so you all know… the CIA in Langley VA was attacked by a lone Muslim extremist from Pakistan on 25-January-1993, He killed two CIA employees (one an actual spook) and wounded three others. He used a Type 56 assault rifle (he bought in VA) which is the Chinese copy of the Kalashnikov AK-47.

    They eventually captured him and he stood trial, found guilty, and was executed in Virginia back in 2002 by lethal injection. But there was no torture (EIT) or any other Senator Ball type mentality. They captured him with HUMINT (human intelligence) which primarily uses stealth and guile among other things. They tricked him to return to a safer rendition location in Punjab province as he was holed up in the more dangerous Durand Line Border Region. The CIA even allowed FBI agents to do the take down at the hotel.

    They tricked him with the number #1 human vice: greed and selfishness. They used a gambit about him smuggling and selling Russian gadgets to Pakistanis and getting rich. That’s how this Chechen kid (if he actually has any actionable intelligence in his brain) should be treated. Win him over with kindness from a stranger and let him come to his own false conclusions. You’d be surprised how many people fall for that crap and give up the family jewels.

    For backgrounder on this story Google: Mir Qazi or “1993 shootings at CIA Headquarters”

  40. White House spokesman Jay Carney:

    “He will not be treated as an enemy combatant,” Carney said. “We will prosecute this terrorist through our civilian system of justice. Under U.S. law, United States citizens cannot be tried in military commissions.”

    (emphasis mine)

    Talk about poisoning the jury pool!

  41. Gene H. 1, April 22, 2013 at 3:37 pm


    This, of course, presumes he’s found guilty. We don’t know the extent or nature of his involvement yet. If he were coerced and there is proof? That’s a game changer for instance.

    ====================================
    Bingo.

  42. I caught that too, OS. Further blurring the line between criminal law and the Law of War as well. But what can you expect? That’s a consequence of declaring war on a tactic instead of a group of people, for example, the country that provided the money and manpower for 9/11 – Saudi Arabia. A great many crimes induce terror in their victims. It doesn’t necessarily follow that the perps are terrorists.

  43. OS,

    i do not disagree with you…. as you stated each state is different…. but then stand that i learned is Mcnaughten….. but hey… youre the professional in this matter… in which i defer …. i really have no car in the soap box derby…..bhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M’Naghten_rules

  44. Otteray Scribe 1, April 22, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    White House spokesman Jay Carney:

    “He will not be treated as an enemy combatant,” Carney said. “We will prosecute this terrorist through our civilian system of justice. Under U.S. law, United States citizens cannot be tried in military commissions.”

    (emphasis mine)

    Talk about poisoning the jury pool!
    ==========================================
    Bingo.

    So much for caring that justice is done.

    This is Ortizinan caring about a “guilty” no matter how it is attained.

    Like JT said a couple of days ago.

  45. Hi Otteray! Long time no hear from… My fault I know… Anyway, I don’t think little “PunkPuss” will see one day of trial in a US courtroom. Now that the “Bïtċh of Buchenwald” is in charge of CIA NCS (national clandestine service) he will probably be rendition-ed to none other than Vladimir Putin. Why? Because Russia is our “friend” now and we have the annoying habit of renditioning suspected bad guys to our “friends” when they are suspected of terror against said friend. It will probably be framed up as a extradition for alleged crimes or plots committed pre-2001, when he arrived in USA. But since he was only 8-years old it probably would not stick. Therefore they might aim at Anzor and Zubeidat Tsarnaev, his parents, and extradite (rendition) all of them.

    PunkPuss’ brother was working with the Chechens who are at a kind of “cold war” with Russia right now. My source seems to think that this bombing was a ploy of some sort inspired by the Chechens (et al). He also thinks some other things too which make no sense to me but that’s Wayne Madsen’s brain I guess. He has friends in very low places (LOL).

    Last post got moderator attention for the use of Bïtċh I think (LOL)

  46. AY,
    M’Naughten has five specific criteria. When it was formulated, it was as if they never wanted anyone to be found NGRI again.

    The ALI standard is somewhat more flexible. However, there are two hurdles one must get past. First he has to be competent to stand trial, and that is not guaranteed. Second, they have to prove guilt, which may not be as much of a slam dunk as some posturing politicians and pundits would have you believe.

  47. Carmen M. Ortiz is being rehabilitated in the same way cops that screw up are; give them a promotion or medal of some kind after they screw up and get caught and send them back out on the street. She’s being given an easy assignment that will give her a lot of good publicity. It’s also a thumb in the eye of everyone that signed one of the ‘Fire Her’ petitions that have been circulating so it’s a twofer’. She’s got a history of excess zeal that doesn’t look good on US Atty’s. (objectively) but she fits right in at the Justice Dept.

  48. If the defendant is sentenced to life, I imagine he will be remanded to the custody of ADX Florence. Maybe that will be sufficient for Senator Ball, but probably not. But who cares what he thinks anyway, the justice process should continue regardless.

  49. Anonymously Yours 1, April 22, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    As you are aware Gene, I am against the death penalty unless…. And unless it involves a rape resulting in death…. Or abuse of a child…. Then shoot the bast$&$@ on the spot……

    So you see there’s really no disagreement…
    =====================================
    One report has it that Massachusetts has no death penalty.

    It is not lawful there.

    So, the feds have alleged interstate issues to give them jurisdiction and the potential for the death penalty:

    The criminal complaint also make a point of alleging that the bombings damaged “interstate and foreign commerce”. Though the reference to disrupted trade sounds gratuitous, it is significant, as it allows federal prosecutors to take the lead; that, in turn, paves the way for a possible federal death penalty, which would not be possible were the case handled by Massachusetts, where capital punishment is outlawed.

    (Guardian). That report goes on to say that one of the defendants, when the Mercedes SUV was hijacked, stated:

    said “Did you hear about the Boston explosion? … I did that,” the man said.

    (ibid). The SUV guy escaped, they did not let him go.

    One of the best reports I have read on the case so far.

  50. In time it might sink in upon the hearts and minds of young America and the world that the Punk Puss look,i.e. caps backwards, backpack, manner of walking, etc will subject this particular Punk Puss to being anally raped when he is in open population in prison. That is the origin of the word “punk”. The word had no origin in punk rock. Bad sex crazed inmates will rape a punk. He who looks like a punk, gets punked. You all can guess what the verbage “getting punked” means. He will probably be in solitary or controlled confinement for the next 20 years because he is so attractive to he pervs.
    This needs to be shoved in the face of all those punks out there that thinks that this “look” is “cool”.
    So, if your kid is sporting a hoodie, a ball cap worn backwards, a backpack with the slouch, then yell at him and let him know that he is looking punk and by punk as in prison punk. You are like a girl at the beach in a bikini to the guys. To the perps you are toast when ya get locked up.

    Punk Puss’ of the world take note. Ya ain’t cool, ya cause perps in prison to drool. Is that a hip enouigh way of putting it to ya? No pun intended.

  51. A couple points —

    Re the Death Penalty:

    He’s definitely eligible for the federal death penalty: Use of a weapon of mass destruction resulting in three deaths, and two homicides in the course of unlawful flight to avoid prosecution (the MIT police officer and his own brother, who reportedly was alive when run over in the course of his escape).

    The federal insanity defense was rewritten after John Hinckley was acquitted.

    18 USC 17 provides:

    “(a) Affirmative Defense.— It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under any Federal statute that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. Mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense.
    (b) Burden of Proof.— The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.”

    There are those who view this kind of religious zeal as a severe mental disease or defect, but I don’t think that will be the case here.

  52. Remember in Lethal Weapon II when the bad guy tortures Mel Gibson, and it’s meant to establish just how BAD he is?

    Torture is evil. It’s evil when people who aren’t American do it, and it’s evil when Americans do it.

    How you respond to any situation says absolutely nothing about the person your responding to, and everything about you.

  53. Speaking of conspiracy theories, one of the federal charges was conspiracy.

    The theory of the case is going to include a conspiracy theory:

    He has been charged with two federal counts: using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction – an improvised explosive device – and malicious destruction of property, resulting in deaths.

    (Guardian, emphasis added).

  54. Dredd, there were two of them, and they apparently agreed to commit the crime. That’s a conspiracy.

    I expect more federal charges than those, though. There were two separate explosive devices at the race, and more during the police chase.

  55. OS,

    Lets be realistic… A Person in these shoes will not get a fair trial…. Period…. More than likely the judge will anoint what the prosecutor wants…. The defendant federally have to prove by clear and convincing standards that he was crazy at the time of the offense…. One hell of a hurdle….used to be you alledged it… The prosecutor has to debunk your defense…. Still that way in a lot of states…. But, you must bring it up….. But hey, you deal with crazy all the time…. So, it will not really matter what I have to say…. You probably know more than I ever want….

  56. AY,
    From everything I have seen and read, the defendant in this case is not “crazy,” as you put it. There is a lot of difference between a crippling injury with possible brain damage and major mental illness in the usual sense of the word.

  57. guess they’ll have to cork up the hole in the back of his throat before they waterboard him.

    fair trial and a legal hanging.

    for the record nick, i’m against the death penalty. my reason in just one word. texas

  58. Hey, OS, if I were this defendant… I’d bring up every affirmative defense that I could…. But you are the expert in crazy…. There’s NGRI as well as lacking criminal capacity at the time of the offense as well as other tactile defenses I would make….

    I feel for the defense… They have their hands full…. Then if hey beat these charges…. Well… I know hold the Feds treat them… They do not like to loose and will do what thy have to in order to win….

    Pete9999,

    I agree with you….

  59. They can convict him of felony murder of his own brother. He is not insane enough,or even plausibly insane, to win a not guilty by reason of insanity defense. He is going to prison for the rest of his life. If he gets the death penalty so be it. The contenance of this Punk Puss and his older bro, will be front and center for years. Punk Puss and the caps backwards approach to life will suffer as a result of this case. The Punk Puss affect wont be “cool” anymore. If he gets punked in prison by some perp then so be it. The only issue remaining now is whether they had accomplices or mentors. If so, whether there was a Muslim Brotherhood conspiracy and beyond that a Russian KGB level of conspiracy. I sort of doubt that there are any accomplices.

    The 26th Amendment made adults out of every kid who reaches age 18. This Punk Puss was 19. He is an adult. He is a punk adult but nevertheless he needs no sympathy for his age. Punks of the world need to realize that they are not cool. They are perp bait. Prison will be rough on this punk. Solitary confinement is better than the alternative out there in general pop with the perps.

  60. Porkchop 1, April 22, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    Dredd, there were two of them, and they apparently agreed to commit the crime. That’s a conspiracy.

    I expect more federal charges than those, though. There were two separate explosive devices at the race, and more during the police chase.
    =============================
    Tru dat.

    That is a popular “theory of the case” in federal criminal prosecutions:

    The concept of criminal conspiracy has its earliest roots in fourteenth century English common law. At that time, it saw limited use as a legal theory. It became more broadly applied in the United States in the nineteenth century, though still the scope of prosecutions was not wide. Today, however, conspiracy is a far-reaching legal principle, embracing antitrust actions, an enormous number of more traditional criminal cases, and even tort lawsuits. It is the basis of prosecutions dealing with, among other crimes, drug violations, securities fraud, murder for hire, bank robbery, and extortion.

    … Conspiracy is an agreement by two or more people to commit a crime.

    (On The Origin of “Conspiracy Theory” – 3). The severe criticism the government received after the JFK assasination, when it decided NOT to prosecute that crime as a conspiracy theory caused a cultural phenomenon:

    Basically, our entire legal system is based on the idea of conspiracy. Despite this fact we have been conditioned by the government and the media to blindly accept the official reports and to treat any questioning of those reports as “conspiracy theorizing. That is, you are a conspiracy theorist if you don’t believe the government’s conspiracy theory.

    This cultural phenomenon goes back to 1967. At that time, in response to questions about the Warren Commission Report (which President Ford helped create), the CIA issued a memorandum calling for mainstream media sources to begin countering “conspiracy theorists.”[CIA Document #1035-960] In the 45 years before the CIA memo came out, the phrase “conspiracy theory” appeared in the Washington Post and New York Times only 50 times, or about once per year. In the 45 years after the CIA memo, the phrase appeared 2,630 times, or about once per week.

    Before the CIA memo came out, the Washington Post and New York Times had never used the phrase “conspiracy theorist.” After the CIA memo came out, these two newspapers have used that phrase 1,118 times. Of course, in these uses the phrase is always delivered in a context in which “conspiracy theorists” were made to seem less intelligent and less rationale than people who uncritically accept official explanations for major events.

    (ibid).

  61. I truly think Dzhokhar’s defense attorney is going to push for blaming EVERYTHING on Tamerlan and suggesting that Dzhokhar was under some sort of Svengali effect which I believe Patricia Campbell Hearst used to some limited success in her defense. She got 35 years, served 22 months, and a POTUS commuted her sentence, then another POTUS issued a full pardon.

    If in fact the Tsarnaev’s escape extradition to Russia for “alleged” crimes or plots against Russia (per Vladimir Putin’s potential future contention), then I don’t think the trial will run anything like what everyone here expects it will for Dzhokhar. Somehow I feel the POTUS will intervene in some strange way. As why did the POTUS authorize Jay Carney to make that totally FUBAR comment about “terrorists”? And what type of strange relationship does the POTUS have with Mr. Putin (see incident in South Korea with POTUS and Medvedev back in March 2012).

    I know all of the Tsarnaevs are naturalized citizens now. But that did not stop Amir Mohamed Meshal (a natural born US citizen) from getting extraordinary rendition to Somalia and Ethiopia with the help of 2 FBI agents and 2 “unknown” US officials (wink wink).

    If Dzhokhar’s “ambulance chaser” lawyer doesn’t come back with a comment like: “Your honor my client ran over his brother to stop him from continuing his terroristic rampage. That indicates to me, your honor, a true turn around in behavior and intent. My client pleas not guilty your honor.” I’d be surprised otherwise…

    I’m just not feeling a natural life-cycle of jurisprudence in this scenario. I’m not predicting anything but I just feel things will become very strange and real soon. I could be wrong (and I usually am) – LOL

  62. @Gene H.

    “Gene H. – April 22, 2013 at 5:43 pm – … [clip] … That’s a consequence of declaring war on a tactic instead of a group of people, for example, the country that provided the money and manpower for 9/11 – Saudi Arabia…”

    I agree with you 100% brother! What are your feelings about the “Phil Marshall*” incident recently (Jan-2013)? Do you smell a Saudi (et al) rodent or two as well?

    *Author of novels: “Lakefront Airport” and ““The Big Bamboozle:…”

  63. Dredd:

    “Speaking of conspiracy theories, one of the federal charges was conspiracy.”

    Actually, no — there is no conspiracy charge at this point. He was charged with:

    “(1): Use of a weapon of mass destruction, in violation of 18, United States Code, Section 2332a(a); and malicious destruction of property resulting in death, in violation of 18, United States Code, Section 844(i).”

    That information is from the transcript of his initial appearance.

  64. Porkchop 1, April 23, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Dredd:

    “Speaking of conspiracy theories, one of the federal charges was conspiracy.”

    Actually, no — there is no conspiracy charge at this point. He was charged with:

    “(1): Use of a weapon of mass destruction, in violation of 18, United States Code, Section 2332a(a); and malicious destruction of property resulting in death, in violation of 18, United States Code, Section 844(i).”

    That information is from the transcript of his initial appearance.
    =====================================================
    Actually yes.

    The statute reads:

    (a) Offense Against a National of the United States or Within the United States.— A person who, without lawful authority, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to use, a weapon of mass destruction …

    (18 U.S.C. 2332a(a)). The alleged factual scenario and the statute fully support the conspiracy charge.

    Forbes: “In a criminal complaint unsealed today in U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts, Tsarnaev is specifically charged with one count of using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction …”

    Guardian: “He has been charged with … using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction …”

  65. “I’m just not feeling a natural life-cycle of jurisprudence in this scenario. I’m not predicting anything but I just feel things will become very strange and real soon.”

    SOTB,

    I have that same strange feeling in my gut.

  66. Anybody with the name Tsar appelled to the first half of his last name who comes from that part of the world has got to be questioned when he hits the U.S. border. While it may be Springtime for Muslims in Egypt, it is gonna be solitary for Punk Puss in the joint. Otherwise he is gonna get gang raped by perps without purpose which is the name of a gang in that federal prison in Leavenworth. When he hits Kansas they will be calling him Dorothy.

  67. HumpinDog is speaking about the gang known as PWP. Perps Without Purpose arose in Leavenworth Prison in 2010. They are coming to a prison near you. Punkpusses of the world beware.

  68. Oh, the bombing suspect, otherwise known as Punk Puss will get tortured. You can count on that Senator Ball.

  69. We dont need no Kennedy caretakers in the NY Senate. He can hold Chamberlane’s umbrella. Anyone recall that one?
    Give Ball a job on the subway pushing the passengers in when it gets real crowded. We can call him Pushy.
    Punk Puss face guys like Ball need some time in prison and some torture from the rear end.

  70. Yeah, the Kennedys needed caretakers. Why does not this generation get some balls and go take care of Mitt. Guys like this put the C back in RepubliCon.

  71. pete, I have another word for being against the death penalty, “Illinois.” The corrupt guv of that state even saw he needed to pardon all death row inmates, due mostly to the lazy, corrupt Chicago Police. Their philosophy was, “Tune up the suspect until they confess.” Illinois is arguably worse than Texas in this regard. But @ least they made it right for some.

  72. @Mike Spindell – I know huh? It’s like a repeat of 9/11 with a twist. Remember when 9/12 rolled up and all CONUS (i.e. Continental USA) air space was shuttered? Somehow a particular Saudi family was allowed flight outbound home DESPITE the FBI’s request to interrogate them. That speaks to the POTUS’ (President of the USA) power to override whatever he wants be it the DoJ or even the Constitution.

    Another man I look up to besides my friend Wayne Madsen (who some find to be a conspiracy theorist nut) is Richard Alan Clarke. He has a lot to say about what really happened in 9/11 as he was in the middle of the conspiracy being manipulated by the scum bags who today still think they’ve gotten away with it.

    I’m sure Richard has a lot to say about the Boston Marathon Bombing and what’s really going on that the rest of us don’t seem to see. I’m presently data mining anything he has said lately about it. Wayne has a LOT to say on his website and he is vilifying the POTUS as being conspiratorial on this mess. He has even implicated DCI (Director CIA) Brennan and crew. I like Wayne but I can’t see Mr. Obama playing a black hat role here. Brennan and his B. Of Buchenwald (I wont name here here) YES I do.

    Why? Because Brennan was in charge of cozying up to the Saudi family back in the day while he was station chief there. He is the one who introduced killer drones to the SW Asian theater of war. He has now brought them on CONUS with one almost near miss collision at JFK back in March. So yes I see him trying to get Dzhokhar sent to Poland (not Cuba) for some rougher treatment with the Russians assisting (i.e. FSB ghouls). IMO they all want to know how and why Doku Umarov needed to have the Tsarnaevs kill and maim some Boston Marathoners.

    It’s very complicated and there are no easy answers here. I’m not trying to say I know what’s really going on as I am confused by all of the new players. All I know is that Mr. Obama, Eric Holder, and Mr. Brennan are all probably NOT going to play by the rules of Hoyle here. Mr. Obama told Katy Couric in an interview when he was running for his first term that he would lie to the American public “if he had to”. So somebody do the math and figure out WTH is going on here.

    Why are the Chechens trying to hurt US to get at Russia? Are there OTHER players here we don’t see in the background from some so-called friendly nation like in 9/11?

    I dunno…

  73. sonofthunderboanerges,

    As to the Chechens role … the U.S. and Russia …you might want to look at Syria for some answers on that question.

    I believe you are correct in sensing something strange and like you, I have no real idea what it is … I have suspicions but no facts

  74. A state senator calling for the torture of an accused U.S. citizen is unusually foolish.

    The allegations of conspiracy against the 19 year old are not unusual in the federal courts, and certainly not unusual in this factual scenario:

    In fact, you might be surprised how many conspiracy theories are handled by the federal and state governments on a daily basis:

    Over one-quarter of all federal criminal prosecutions and a large number of state cases involve prosecutions for conspiracy.

    (Conspiracy Theory, 112 Yale L.J. 1307 (2003), Preface,  emphasis added). That is a lot of real, serious as a heart attack, beyond a reasonable doubt, and well documented occurrences of “conspiracy theories” going on in reality before the eyes of anyone who wants to see them.

    Notice the legal reality that conspiracy is a separate crime, different from the planned crime yet-to-be-done:

    Consider how a law school textbook might introduce the elements of traditional conspiracy law: Imagine that Joe and Sandra agree to rob a bank. From the moment of agreement, they can be found guilty of conspiracy even if they never commit the robbery (it’s called “inchoate liability”). Even if the bank goes out of business, they can still be liable for the conspiracy (“impossibility” is not a defense). Joe can be liable for other crimes that Sandra commits to further the conspiracy’s objective, like hot-wiring a getaway car (it’s called “Pinkerton” liability, after a 1946 Supreme Court case involving tax offenses). He can’t evade liability by staying home on the day of the robbery (a conspirator has to take an affirmative step to “withdraw”). And if the bank heist takes place, both Joe and Sandra can be charged with bank robbery and with the separate crime of conspiracy, each of which carries its own punishment (the crime of conspiracy doesn’t “merge” with the underlying crime). Why should conspiracy liability begin at the moment of “agreement,” before any crime is committed? Why can a conspirator be charged with both the inchoate offense of conspiracy and the robbery? Why should the law punish conspirators even if it’s impossible for them to commit the crime they planned? Why is withdrawal from a conspiracy so difficult?

    (ibid, “Conspiracy Theory“, Article, PDF), emphasis added). Remember that those “conspiracy theories” happen every day when a criminal prosecutor has a conspiracy theory of the case in criminal conspiracy prosecutions.

    (On The Origin of “Conspiracy Theory”). Everything gotta start somewhere pilgrim.

    The conspiracy, the attempt to explode a WMD, and the actual explosions are all separate offenses or counts under the statute at hand.

  75. All of you doom and gloomers who think prison rape is a common thing any more has watched too many HBO “Oz” re-runs or think Hollywood is a good indicator of reality. If Mr. Tsarnaev goes to jail he will be probably sent to a SuperMax under solitary confinement much the way FBI’s traitor-spy Robert Philip Hanssen is doing right now at ADX Florence CO.

    In a scenario like that all activities are monitored 24 hours a day by CCTV. No visitors allowed. Not even fellow inmates. Most state and federal DoC Officers are now held to a higher standard and are appraised periodically on how they interact with inmates and mitigate trouble like prison rape. Homosexuality in prison is not that common even though it still happens in private areas where trustees can meet. But hard core inmates are monitored much more closely than before.

    The warden is responsible for identifying any corruption of his/her officers like getting pay-offs from high-value-inmates. So stop with the prison rape scenario. It probably won’t happen to Mr. Tsarnaev. However they may try some of that psychological torture stuff when they get him to the Poland black site like they did at Abu Gharab and Gitmo. I think they called it a “mayonnaise sandwich” (ugh)? (trust me you don’t wanna’ know…).

  76. “The conspiratorially inclined blogger Wayne Madsen released a special report in May 2010 that was picked up by the tabloid The Globe. It tied a host of scurrilous stories into a grand gay conspiracy that not only recapitulated Sinclair’s outrageous accusations but tied Rahm Emanuel (like Obama, Madsen claimed, a lifetime member of a gay Chicago bathhouse), disgraced ex-governor Rod Blagojevich, the imprisoned real estate developer Tony Rezko, and U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald into the story as well. Madsen goes on to claim that Obama’s male paramours have included not just Reggie Love but former U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee, former U.S. Rep. Artur Davis of Alabama, and Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick. ” The Southern Poverty Center. Wayne Madsen is a well known anti-semite conspiracy theorist. Would not believe a word he says, Blouise

  77. What about all the unnecessary ure that is being donto black men byt Connecticut Justice… Where is the stories on that???

    ________________________________

  78. @Blouise – OK “Syria”… I’ll stick that into my Gary Seven (i.e. Star Trek) computer and see what pops out: “Computer! Factor is SYRIA into the scenario… WORKING…” No seriously I’ll see what I can find.

    I’ve been just “spit-balling” here and seeing what sticks. With all of the great minds here I’m sure we can come up with something plausible. I mean we pretty much solved the Trayvon case right? By adding a third-party assailant? We need some DoD (NRO) help with that one. I’m sure Eric Holder could request the imaging for that day and time (I digress)…

    OK Mr. Ball… you want torture? Let’s do the right thing and send in ST-6 & CIA and rendition the leader of the “Caucasus Emirate” namely Mr. Doku Umarov (a/k/a Dokka Abu Usman) to Szczytn. He is undoubtedly responsible for Boston Marathon Attack.

    Easier said then done though:
    Doku Umarov is the most wanted man in Russia. The US has offered $5m for information leading to his capture. Since 10 March 2011, Umarov has also been on the UN Security Council al-Qaida and Taliban Sanctions Committee list of individuals associated with al-Qaida.

    Alexei Filatov, retired KGB officer and Vice-President of Russia’s elite Alpha Group Veterans’ Association assumes that the Tsarnaevs may have been brainwashed by Umarov. (Source: Russia Beyond The Headlines)

    Vladimir Evseev, Director of Center for Social and Political Studies, said “…some Russian passport holders have joined the Syrian rebels. These are people without a true homeland. They earn money by killing people, and cannot change their occupation…” (Source: Russia Beyond The Headlines)

  79. @Swarthmore mom – I agree Wayne Madsen has had his WRONG moments. Like when he started the BIRTHERS on their ignorant rampage to “prove” Mr. Obama was born in Kenya. He has recanted that now.

    Also how can you be a ANTI-SEMITE against a people who have no noticeable DNA traces to the Semitic people per Dr. Spencer Wells Harvard Genograpics Project and a leading outspoken Israeli Rabbi? The people you refer to are the ASKHANAZI who are arguably decedents of Noah’s sons Japeth NOT Shem (aka Semite). Now when Wayne points out some shenanigans by AIPAC, the Likud Party, Bebe Netanyaho, the Mossad, etc. somehow that is anti-Semitic? Pointing out the truth behind events is not a vilification of an entire ethnic group. It’s only politics.

    No Wayne is not always right. He is not right about Obama being a hidden homosexual. Anything he says about Obama is usually just guess work and mere speculation. He even thinks Obama and his mom worked for CIA back in the day.

    I think his angst is because the White House snubbed him and wont recognize him as a legitimate journalist like his mentor the late Jack Anderson. However, most of the stuff he has to say about OTHER things seems to be right on the money due to independent verification of his facts. He has said things that I personally knew where true and I was astounded he had that much insight. He still has whistle-blower friends in military industrial complex, NSA, ONI, US Navy, and CIA.

    There is an orchestrated campaign to smear Wayne on the Internet. Why? Because he is getting too close to the truth and it hurts the guilty. Look what happened to Philip Marshal only 4 months ago. Murder-suicide? Come on!

  80. Porkchop 1, April 23, 2013 at 8:47 am

    Dredd:

    “Speaking of conspiracy theories, one of the federal charges was conspiracy.”

    Actually, no — there is no conspiracy charge at this point. He was charged with:

    “(1): Use of a weapon of mass destruction, in violation of 18, United States Code, Section 2332a(a); and malicious destruction of property resulting in death, in violation of 18, United States Code, Section 844(i).”

    That information is from the transcript of his initial appearance.
    ========================================
    Actually YES again.

    The sworn affadivit of the special agent attached to the less detailed pleading or transcript you cite to, goes on to say under oath:

    3. This affidavit is submitted in support of an application for a complaint charging DZHOKHAR A. TSARNAEV of Cambridge, Massachusetts (“DZHOKHAR TSARNAEV”) with using a weapon of mass destruction against persons and property at the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013, resulting in death. More specifically, I submit this affidavit in support of an application fo a complaint charging DZHOKHAR TSARNAEV with (1) unlawfully using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction

    (Guardian, emphasis added). As I stated above, the statute also covers “attempts” to use a WMD following a conspiracy … for example … any unexploded ones made to be exploded.

  81. Blouise, I look the truthers up when someone starts quoting them . They are really quite a self promoting bunch. The Southern Poverty Center has done some very informative research on them.

  82. SwM,

    Besides, conspiracy theories are built into our DNA. The Founders were convinced (Franklin was the last to come on board) that Parliament was involved in a “Great Conspiracy” to take our rights as free Englishmen, freemen, thus to “enslave” us forever. See the DOI:

    ” The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.”

  83. Here’s some high strangeness for you:

    1) How did Mr. Doku Umarov know about the Boston bomb drill that was concurrent with his operation? There was also a military drill during 9/11. How did they know about it too?

    2) How did the law enforcement know how to shut down all cell-phone service to stop any further bombs? I must admit that was one awesome move I would have never thought of. Was it cell-phone-jammers or a cell provider pre-arrangement?

    3) Why were the Sandy Hook Connecticut parent victims bleachers targeted? They disarmed a bomb under the bleachers.

    4) Was the woman that died and the man that had his legs blown off the real targets? If so why? Maybe there where no specific targets only mass causality goals by Umarov. He didn’t get that many as it was 4 bombs in total. Only 2 went off. That’s not really “mass destruction”.

    5) Why didn’t Umarov give the brothers a better exit-strategy? Like an a secondary hired assassin to finish off the brothers to clear up any loose ends. I know a bit morbid. But you know the Caucasus Emirates are not going to supply a helicopter-exfil and false-flags (i.e. false documents like passports).

    Can anybody think of any more? I’m just brainstorming here…

    No need to torture Dzhokhar. Let’s torture Umarov… just for the justice of it all; even if it reveals nothing. That’s what the new female director of CIA/NCS did and was depicted in Zero Dark Thirty movie.

  84. Swarthmore mom 1, April 23, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    Blouise, I look the truthers up when someone starts quoting them . They are really quite a self promoting bunch. The Southern Poverty Center has done some very informative research on them.
    ======================================
    Ditto for the fictioners.

    Especially the detail on the Memphis jury trial that found that the early truthers were correct about the conspiracy to assassinate Dr. King:

    The fact that conspiracies take place between members of government to carry out state crimes against democracy, crimes against the people, has been proven in courts of law.

    One example it would be appropriate to mention on a day remembering Dr. King, would be IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY, TENNESSEE FOR THE THIRTIETH JUDICIAL DISTRICT AT MEMPHIS, where a jury verdict stated that the government participated in a conspiracy to kill Dr. King:

    THE COURT: In answer to the question did Loyd Jowers participate in a conspiracy to do harm to Dr. Martin Luther King, your answer is yes. Do you also find that others, including governmental agencies, were parties to this conspiracy as alleged by the defendant? Your answer to that one is also yes … Is that your verdict?

    THE JURY: Yes (In unison).

    (King v. Jowers, emphasis added). The assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a state crime against democracy.

    Governments, including state governments of the United States, as well as the federal government, can and do commit crimes against the people.

    (Dr. King Is Remembered). Like Noam Chomsky of Cambridge recently in lock-down said in a recent speech: “it takes real genius not to see it.”

  85. @Blouise – I’ve always admired Ben Franklin. He was involved in quite a few conspiracies of his own. When he was in France (cheating on his wife), he successively fooled British spies as to his true intent for his visits. Namely to get French support in the war.

    A little known fact: Franklin set up and deployed a team of buccaneers or pirates to plunder British shipping. However, as greed would have it he could not control them and had to disband them.

    I particularly like how he “borrowed” the basics for the D.O.I. from the Haudenosaunee Iroquois Confederacy. That was a shrewd move of plagiarism as the victims had no venue to complain to.

    And I’m still trying to figure out how they got Chief Passyunk (Delaware Nation) to deed over Philadelphia area and New Jersey to them. There may not be any legal standing on that to this day.

  86. @Blouise – Regarding torture and early Americana… I found a 19th century torture chamber dungeon in Southern NJ. It is called Fort Mott. The Union Army used the chamber(s) to get information out of Confederate captives. It used a crushing wall. It was two masonry slabs. One stationary and the other on sliding rails. It was moved forward by a ratchet device much like the ancient “rack” but in reverse. They would crush the enemy combatant until he would give up the intel… Failing that they didn’t have to make the pine casket too thick… (bad joke).

    Come to find out the Fort had many dungeons and lookout towers. All closed now for safety reasons. It’s in Pennsville NJ home of actor Bruce Willis.

    Senator Ball would love this place!

  87. @Anonymously Yours – Maybe they could have spoke with Moses Harry Horwitz (Moe from 3 Stooges) – I wonder how many squaws Ben had?

    @Bron – Then he fooled you too. That’s what the British spies thought too. Ever here the expression: “Giving one (or two) for the team”? Ben did his duty for God and Country and slept with as many French women he could to keep his end up – (LOL)

    Letter to Deborah Read (Mrs. Franklin): “Hello my dearest Deborah. I’ve been having a lot of ups and downs here is Paris. However, I’m having a good time wishing you were here…” (not!)

  88. SOTB,

    I don’t have a clue where this is going, except for my gut that something is not quite right. It’s too early to posit any real conspiracy theories since we still need more details to come out to determine the shape of what is happening. I think it is still up in the air why it was done, or what point was supposedly being made. As for Wayne Madsen. I don’t respect him because I think he goes off half-cocked too often by trying to scoop the field. As for the Ashkenazim I think he and the Harvard guy are wrong. Other genetic studies have shown that genetically the Askenazim are about 75% Middle Eastern origin. I wouldn’t call Madsen anti-Jewish though, but I think his politics regarding Israel influence his opinions.

  89. Mike,
    Self-exculpatory statements are not only common, they are expected.

    It must be up to the investigators to prove their case and not depend on a confession to make it easy for the prosecutor.

  90. New York State Senator Greg Ball (R) is a fraction of a human being who espouses the use of torture when any fool knows the information garnered employing torture will be worthless.

    Mr. Ball’s role as a NYS Senator is simply a ceremonial as the true business of the NYS is conducted behind closed doors by the troika of tyrants that go by the names Andrew M. Cuomo, Sheldon Silver and Dean G. Skelos. These three clowns get together and pronounce to the 17 million serfs residing within their fiefdom how the state will be run. So much for the NY state consitituion.

    The folks infesting the NY statehouse in Albany have abdicated their authority for so long on issues of consequence that they are now regulated to acting as a rubber-stamp-committee whose priorities are renaming bridges, highways, public parks, taking bribes, cronyism, nepotism and in Senator Balls case demanding we torture people so his pathetic little self spout absurdities from his taxpayer funded soapbox.

    Please Mr. Ball take yourself and your senatorial ilk home and shelter in place for all eternity.

  91. Some commentor above said that Punk Puss wont get punked in prison because they will put him in solitary and keep him away from perps 24/7. That will be worse than the death penalty for Punk Puss.

    So kids out there, here is a great person to emulate. Get the ball cap, put it on backwards, put the backpack on and slouch along with girlyboy face and girlyboy locks and walkin slow.
    Knick nack paddy wag, give a dog a bone
    Girly boy is going home.

    Role model for the local yokels who need love too sticker, and its up against the wall Redneck mothers,….

    Maybe Punk Puss wants to get punked. Well, solitary stops him getting his wish. Stitch in time saves nine.

  92. OS,

    Could you elaborate a little….. If I recall anything said can be used against the defendant or to even impeach prior inconsistent statements…. I’m not following you….

  93. Let’s agree that we can torture people we really don’t like, but we should never torture people who are just like US. Then we can really get constitutional on them. This also has the virtue of being comprehensible.

  94. Dredd:

    Actually, no, again.

    The affidavit differs from the complaint. The complaint is the charging document. The complaint doesn’t charge a conspiracy. The complaint charges (1) use of a weapon of mass destruction and (2) malicious destruction of property resulting in death. Maybe someone was thinking of a conspiracy charge, which would explain its presence in the affidavit, but it wasn’t put in the complaint.

  95. Crime is not as complicated as many people try and make it. Most criminals are not very smart. These two shitbirds were amateurs and not very bright, that is painfully obvious. That is not to say there aren’t surprises and unexpected facts that arise when you conduct an investigation, that’s why you keep an open mind if you’re good. At this juncture I would not rule out some surprises. From my perspective, what interests me most is the prior contact by the FBI. Was this kid a CI that got out of control? The three former buddies of the dead shitbird, who got their throat slit, is also intriquing. However, at this point my take is the older brother was just a sociopath and he had a lot of influence over his impressionable brother.

  96. AY,
    What I meant was that defendants and suspects commonly lie to get out of trouble, or to minimize the consequences. It is common to hear, “I was just walkin’ down the street,mindin’ my own business, and I don’t know nuthin’ about no convenience store.”

    It is rather uncommon to hear, “Yeah, I did it. I will tell you all about it.”

    Detectives, if they are good, gather evidence and prove the case, rather than waiting on a confession to do it for them. The other side of the same coin is the fact people sometimes make false confessions. There are many reasons for that, but they do. It is the good detective who checks out details to see if the confession is false.

  97. sonofthunderboanerges,

    Never heard of that particular torture prison … I’ll look into it

    As to the Foundings and good ol’ Ben’s plots … it doesn’t hurt to remember that the English, as part of their treaty after the French/Indian War were trying to actively discourage settlement of the Ohio territories by Colonists because it upset the Tribes and thus interfered with the fur trade. Now George through his surveyor work, Ben through his partnership with speculators, and Thomas through his father who was a cartographer, were all heavily invested in said Ohio territories and stood to lose substantial sums committed and future profits expected if the Brits shut down the territories to Colonists. Of course much of this was kept from the rabble who were going to do the actual fighting to gain independence from Britain. ;)

  98. nick,

    “From my perspective, what interests me most is the prior contact by the FBI.”

    Yes! That is the thing that most interests me. Russians gave the FBI his name sometime in 2011… how did the Russians know about #1 two years before he makes his visit in Jan. 2012?

  99. NICK:

    I heard on the TV this morning that the FBI gets something on the order of 50,000 requests per year from other governments to check out people living in the states.

  100. State Sen. Ball takes pride in being an Air Force veteran, a state senator and a Catholic. He has successfully violated the traditions and obligations of all three through his call for the commission of crimes under domestic and international law.

  101. Turnabout is fair play. So if we find out that this Sen. Ball has possibly taken a bribe then it will be ok to torture him to find out the truth. He is a citizen, Punk Puss is a citizen. Equal rights.

  102. our old friends the Saudis may be at it again:

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/041813-652517-boston-bombing-timeline-suggests-obama-saudi-coverup.htm

    April 15: Saudi college student Abdulrahman Ali Alharbi is seen near the Boston marathon finish line with two other Saudis. He’s tackled after fleeing the scene of one of the bombings. Authorities question him.

    April 15: FBI agents search Alharbi’s apartment, leave with bags of evidence. He’s described as a “person of interest” in attacks.

    April 16: Secretary of State John Kerry secretly meets with the Saudi foreign minister, locking out reporters who initially were told the meeting would be open.

    April 16: Saudi ambassador phones several papers and insists neither Alharbi nor any Saudi nationals are involved in the bombings. Saudi officials visit the well-connected Alharbi at a Boston hospital.

    April 17: Officials clear Alharbi, who’s reportedly related to al-Qaida Gitmo detainees, as a person of interest.

  103. We don’t need to worry about a trial. I had inside edition on in the background (disclaimer I don’t listen to this awful show but hadn’t changed channel and was too busy to get to it). In the intro to a story they said This is ‘despicable” a facebook page called, I think, Tsarnaev is innocent.
    It is rare we are hearing the word alleged or anything that is a qualifier. We don’t seem to need ‘no stinkin’ ‘ trial. Too much of the media, congress, and the executive via Jay Carney, as noted here or in another post, have named these guys as ‘terrorists’ and the definitive perpetrators. How in the world can they get any kind of a fair trial (which is kind of debatable anyway) when all the potential jury pool has been tainted?

  104. Bron:

    Or maybe the guy had nothing to do with the bombing, and the Saudi ambassador did what embassies do — assist their nationals in foreign countries.

    There is such a thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not every Saudi is a bad actor.

    His fleeing the scene of one of the bombings is hardly suspicious — hundreds of others did the same thing. Now, calmly walking away — that is suspicious.

  105. OS,

    What you say re: self-exculpatory statements is true. What intrigues me are the possibilities. It might be him protecting his movement, it might be two brothers that got carried away into madness, he might have been manipilated by a sense of loyalty to his big brother, etc. Also in the picture though is that the Intelligence Community might want to let it be the “lone terrorists, or perhaps find a new target to make war on. At this point I have no clue how this will all play out, but I have a hunch the death penalty will be taken off the table in a plea deal.

  106. Personanongrata,

    I see you have an excellent understanding of New York State politics. Of course I say that because it is my understanding as well. :)

  107. Mike,

    “Also in the picture though is that the Intelligence Community might want to let it be the “lone terrorists, or perhaps find a new target to make war on.”

    This is my concern as well. This could be just the weapon used to kill the 4th Amendment and gut what is left of our already degraded privacy protections. “We are all enemy combatants” – unless you’re one of the “elites” is the entry point to martial law, officially declared or not.

  108. Porkchop:

    I hope you are right. I went to school with many people from different countries in the middle east and I liked the majority of them. In the last 30 years something has happened. I used to have a beer with these guys, BS and talk politics and religion. Normal college kid stuff; I never got a whiff of them wanting to do anything but improve their financial status, get married and have children.

    These were just normal middle class guys. I would really like to know how we went from that to this in 30 years. I understand the last 10 but not the 20 years prior to 9/11.

    Is it really all about Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan?

  109. You know mike S… We have no idea of what was really said…. We don’t know if The Government got them to go along with some plan…. I think self exculpatory statements are different from that we acted alone…. I think folks and including you are putting the cart before the mule on this one…. But on occasion I know which way the wind blows…

  110. “[M]anipulating the greatest strengths of our open society against us.” This can be said for about 99% of all criminals. Once this justification becomes the norm for in terrorist cases (which it has since the “liberal” Democratic administration now in place has adopted the rational of Mssrs. Bybee and Yoo), it’s only a matter of time before it’s used to justify torture in all criminal cases.

  111. Porkchop 1, April 23, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    Dredd:

    Actually, no, again.

    The affidavit differs from the complaint. The complaint is the charging document. The complaint doesn’t charge a conspiracy. The complaint charges (1) use of a weapon of mass destruction and (2) malicious destruction of property resulting in death. Maybe someone was thinking of a conspiracy charge, which would explain its presence in the affidavit, but it wasn’t put in the complaint.
    ===============================
    Actually, YES again and again.

    What you call “the complaint” in the current case is only the first page alone of many pages that actually comprise a valid federal “criminal complaint” as required by the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure:

    Rule 3. The Complaint

    The complaint is a written statement of the essential facts constituting the offense charged … it must be made under oath before a magistrate judge …

    (DOJ). Under the federal rules “the complaint” is the sum of the facts related to the statute(s) that describe a federal crime.

    Just quoting the statute on the first page saying “John Doe violated statute x”, what you mistakenly called “the complaint” is insufficient and not “the complaint” under the federal rules.

    The affidavit attached is an essential segment and part of “the complaint.”

    It is not like a complaint in a civil case that needs only bare allegations not given under oath or affirmation.

    Furthermore, unless there is a follow TRUE BILL by a grand jury, even the properly filed criminal complaint isn’t sufficient to sustain charges in “the complaint” (ibid, Rule 7).

  112. PorkChop,

    For your further edification.

    I give you text from an actual Motion To Dismiss A Federal Criminal Complaint for failure to comply with F.R.C.P 3 I cited in my comment above:

    For a criminal complaint to support the issuance of a summons, the supporting affidavit must state in nonconclusory terms the “essential facts constituting the offense charged.” Fed. R. Crim P. 3; United States v. Greenberg, 320 F.2d 467, 472 (9th Cir. 1963). This includes setting forth the underlying circumstances supporting the government’s allegations, identifying the sources of the information, and establishing the reliability and veracity of hearsay witnesses. Giordenello v. United States., 357 U.S. 480, 485, 84 S. Ct. 1509, 1513-1514, 12 L. Ed. 2d 723 (1958); Aguilar v. Texas, 378 U.S. 108, 113-114, 84 S. Ct. 1509, 1513-14, 12 L. Ed. 2d 723 (1964). Together, these facts must be sufficient to support a magistrate’s independent determination of probable cause. Fed. R. Crim. P. 4(a); Giordenello, 357 U.S. at 485, 78 S. Ct. at 1249.

    (Motion To Dismiss, PDF). It is an actual motion from a federal criminal case.

    Just one quote from the Supreme Court that reversed the conviction based on a criminal complaint:

    Petitioner challenges the sufficiency of the warrant on two grounds: (1) that the complaint on which the warrant was issued was inadequate because the complaining officer, Finley, relied exclusively upon hearsay information, rather than personal knowledge in executing the complaint; and (2) that the complaint was, in any event, defective in that it, in effect, recited no more than the elements of the crime charged, namely the concealment of heroin with knowledge of its illegal importation in violation of 21 U.S.C. § 174.

    Giordenello v. United States., 357 U.S. 480 (1958).

    Your mistaken belief that the one page with “COMPLAINT” under the caption constitutes the complaint is misinformed.

  113. @Mike Spindell
    “Mike Spindell April 23, 2013 at 2:08 pm
    SOTB,
    …[clip]…
    As for Wayne Madsen. I don’t respect him because I think he goes off half-cocked too often by trying to scoop the field.”

    You get no argument from me on that. I feel that he is a bit too capitalistic as he will truck with Alex Jones ONLY because of the money. He also enjoys working with Russia Today which I guess is OK but it is purely money driven. I do not like his diatribes against Mr. Obama. That bit of fiction is all idle speculation and he shouldn’t keep preaching it as gospel.

    The other stuff appears to be bona-fide. So we can’t just “throw out the baby with the bath water”. IMO he is the king of international IC whistleblowers who flock to him. (i.e. IC = Intelligence Community).

    “As for the Ashkenazim I think he and the Harvard guy are wrong. Other genetic studies have shown that genetically the Askenazim are about 75% Middle Eastern origin. I wouldn’t call Madsen anti-Jewish though, but I think his politics regarding Israel influence his opinions.”

    No Wayne is not at all anti-Jewish nor anti-Israel… he is anti-Zionist. The three words are not synonymous. There are many Israelis who agree with Wayne on many points.

    Middle Eastern is not an ethnic group nor a racial group. Please note this from a highly respected Rabbi who resides in Hattiesburg MS (USA):
    “… Though many Jews are NOT of Semitic origin, we are the religious, spiritual, and national [but NOT genetic] descendants of those who first formed the early foundations of Judaism who were Semites” – Rabbi Cyril A. Stanway in Thursday, November 8, 1990

    So saying Wayne is a ANTI-SEMITE is an misnomer. SWM should rephrase that as a raging ANTI-ZIONIST and then she would be correct.

  114. PorkChop,

    For your further edification.

    The complaint specifically says:

    I submit this affidavit in support of an application for a complaint charging DZHOKHAR TSARNAEV with (1) unlawfully using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction (namely, an improvised explosive device) against persons and property within the United States used in interstate and foreign commerce and in an activity that affects interstate and foreign commerce, which offense and its results affected interstate and foreign commerce (including, but not limited to, the Boston Marathon, private businesses in Eastern Massachusetts, and the City of Boston itself), resulting in death, in violation of 18 U.S.C. 2332a; and (2) maliciously damaging and destroying, by means of an explosive, real and personal property used in interstate and foreign commerce and in an activity affecting interstate and foreign commerce, resulting in personal injury and death, in violation of 18 U.S.C. 844(i).

    (Read Criminal Complaint).

  115. Mike Spindell April 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm
    So what are we to make of this?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/boston-suspect-denies-terrorist-groups_n_3135523.html

    As I posted earlier an ex-KGB agent said he felt BOTH boys were brainwashed. He should know as he probably did a lot of that himself. So of course the younger one (still alive) will say what his contingency programming told him to say. I believe even the running over of his brother with the carjacked SUV was conditioned programming too. It was to clear up loose ends.

    How could Umarov brainwash him if only the older brother went to Chechnya last year? Ever heard the expression “Go downtown and get a [bleep] and bring back one for me?” (snicker) That type of psychological education is transferable. Or maybe Umarov has agents here in USA. There is a large population of Chechans and Russians (et al) in New England area.

  116. nick spinelli – April 23, 2013 at 3:34 pm
    …[clip]… what interests me most is the prior contact by the FBI. Was this kid a CI [confidential informant] that got out of control? The three former buddies of the dead shitbird, who got their throat slit, is also intriguing….

    Care to elaborate and share Internet citations Nick? This is news to me. FBI pre-contact with who? And what was the nature of the article that quotes this? Who got their throats cut? If so that adds a bit more political intrigue to the story. Please share more details…

  117. “Please note this from a highly respected Rabbi who resides in Hattiesburg MS (USA):
    “… Though many Jews are NOT of Semitic origin, we are the religious, spiritual, and national [but NOT genetic] descendants of those who first formed the early foundations of Judaism who were Semites” – Rabbi Cyril A. Stanway in Thursday, November 8, 1990”

    SOTB,

    The Rabbi represents a view that is not held by the large majority of Rabbi’s. Also you might know that on this blog, for years I have made a distinction between those that are anti-Jewish and those who are anti-Israel. Notice though I don’t use the term Zionist. That term itself is quite imprecise. I am Jewish, I am a proud Zionist, yet I have publicly in this space abhorred AIPAC, Likud and Netanyahu for years. As a Jew who was born in the early Forties I am aware of the anti-Jewish feeling that existed even in this country. I can see it coming back to this country in a heartbeat. Israel represents a refuge for Jews in case the proverbial sh*t his the fan. Many people here on the Left view the entire issue from their particular political perspective, I understand that, but there is another side to it and there is another story that has been obscured by almost one half a century of Saudi backed propaganda. I’m not into arguing this point because I have found that it is futile. The main reason I came to this blog is because I was literally laughed out of Democrats.com for my Israel views and accused of being a right wing propagandist. The Left, once it has an idea, can be every bit as insufferable as the Right. I write this in explanation to you because I respect you, not to debate the issue with you.

  118. “That type of psychological education is transferable.”

    SOTB,

    A possible explanation could also be idolization of his big brother and an inordinate loyalty to him. Who knows?

  119. SwM,

    Maybe the FBI and DHS did fumble the ball after the Russians warned them about #1. What I want to know is how the Russians knew about him in the first place … and we didn’t. If I were an enterprising journalist, I’d be very curious about that one.

  120. Blouise – April 23, 2013 at 4:13 pm
    sonofthunderboanerges,

    Never heard of that particular torture prison … I’ll look into it

    Yes look up Fort Mott State Park in Pennsville NJ. There were others in the area but this one was notorious during US Civil War. They say the enemy combatant cemetery was full and they had to seek other accommodations for the executed tortured Rebels

    As to the Foundings and good ol’ Ben’s plots … it doesn’t hurt to remember that the English… I thought you were going to mention the first use of “germ warfare” by the British on native Americans with small pox infected blankets…

    COINCIDENCE: Ben Franklin was born on Milk Street Boston Massachusetts. Just 3 miles north of the Boston Marathon.

  121. Bron – April 23, 2013 at 8:18 pm
    our old friends the Saudis may be at it again:

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/041813-652517-boston-bombing-timeline-suggests-obama-saudi-coverup.htm

    April 15: Saudi college student Abdulrahman Ali Alharbi is seen near the Boston marathon finish line with two other Saudis. He’s tackled after fleeing the scene of one of the bombings. Authorities question him.

    April 15: FBI agents search Alharbi’s apartment, leave with bags of evidence. He’s described as a “person of interest” in attacks.

    April 16: Secretary of State John Kerry secretly meets with the Saudi foreign minister, locking out reporters who initially were told the meeting would be open.

    April 16: Saudi ambassador phones several papers and insists neither Alharbi nor any Saudi nationals are involved in the bombings. Saudi officials visit the well-connected Alharbi at a Boston hospital.

    April 17: Officials clear Alharbi, who’s reportedly related to al-Qaida Gitmo detainees, as a person of interest.

    Yes Bron that is very interesting. Little known fact (I don’t know if this is still true today. Maybe somebody can verify.) The Saudi Embassy in Washington DC in 2004 was protected by the White House Police Force. WTF??? That force is under the USSS for executive protection only.

    How did that happen?

  122. sonofthunderboanerges,

    You really do know your Franklin! Have you ever toured Philadelphia? One used to be able to arrange private tours through the Park Service. Those people were a font of information as most of them are early American history scholars. The reason for the private tours was due to the fragility of the sites … one was thus part of a small group watched carefully by the Park Service.

    I spent 2 hours in the Todd House asking questions and learning all sorts of things about Dolly Payne Todd Madison. “On the corner of 4th and Walnut Streets stands the Todd House, home of Dolley Madison. It was built in 1775 and occupied from 1791 to 1793 by John Todd, Jr., and his wife, Dolley Payne. After Todd’s death in the yellow fever epidemic of 1793, she married James Madison, a young Virginia politician who was to become our fourth President.”

    Franklin’s house doesn’t exist anymore but if you take one of the walking tours, again by appointment only and group numbers kept very low, you can stop at the spot where it used to be and engage your Park Service guide … pick their brains and get all sorts of “little known facts”.

    Just be very, very careful about traffic … Philadelphian drivers stop for no one!!

  123. Gene H. – April 24, 2013 at 1:05 am
    Mike,

    …[clip]… This could be just the weapon used to kill the 4th Amendment and gut what is left of our already degraded privacy protections. “We are all enemy combatants” – unless you’re one of the “elites” is the entry point to martial law, officially declared or not.

    I agree Gene. Google: CISPA That privacy abomination was recently approved by HR and now awaiting Senate approval. Mr.Obama says he will veto it if they approve it. I believe it’s PATRIOT ACT on steroids.

    Under CISPA Jonathan Turley would have to supply our ISP’s and our IP address to whatever spooky ask for it SANS WARRANT! Then the same would apply to our ISP company getting our postal address and cc #. AT&T would do it anyway as they are so embed (or is it in-bed) with them. I dumped them recently. They totally suck as a phone and ISP company.

  124. sonofthunderboanerges,

    Are you referring to the “The Fort Delaware Death Pen” on Pea Patch Island? Yesterday, after reading your posts, I looked up Finns Point Cemetery which is adjacent to Motts and read that cemetery was built in 1863 for Confederate prisoners of war who died while in captivity at Fort Delaware.

    Some really gruesome practices went on there.

  125. Swarthmore,
    I want to echo Blouise’s response to your comment that you can be on the terror watch list and prevented from flying, but you are still able to buy a gun. That is a good summation of the state of this country.

  126. @Mike Spindell

    …I am Jewish, I am a proud Zionist, yet I have publicly in this space abhorred AIPAC, Likud and Netanyahu for years. …

    I’m glad you said this. I too am about 1/32 Ashkenazim but was born in the fifties in NJ. I am actually a “mutt”. I too hold these same feelings. However, I must add the INSTITUTE as well (i.e. ha-Mossad). I never knew the right word to sum up mine and Wayne’s feelings so I chose the phrase Anti-Zionist.

    I am against,extreme RIGHT-WING fundamentalist Zionism in Israel. I do not share the feelings of POTUS FDR & Truman in 1948 re: Balfour Declaration as it totally ignores the indigenous population ALREADY there for centuries beforehand. The only reason why it was done was for the Jewish contribution to the Brits in WW1 against the Turks. Not because they were actually SEMITES and had some sort of genetic (or Biblical) right to the land.

    I do not like what’s happening in the Gaza Strip today. I also think there is MAJOR hypocrisy regarding SW Asian nuclear proliferation in light of the DImona installation in the Negeb. I am appalled at the apathy some (not all) Israelis display over the 1967 incident with our US Navy spy-ship USS Liberty. To this day some are STILL covering up what really happened and why. I blame Sharon (aka Arik) for this.

    Yes I am glad you put these *stakes in the ground* here. I was trying to tread lightly around you as I knew of your Jewish background. I did not want to offend or get you started on a heated argument. You see I really like you. I think you are uber-cool guy!

  127. “That type of psychological education is transferable.”

    SOTB,

    A possible explanation could also be idolization of his big brother and an inordinate loyalty to him. Who knows?

    Yup that’s why I mentioned the SVENGALI EFFECT and Patty Hearst. She was a little rich white girl who was turned to low-life bank robber and machine guns by her black captor Donald DeFreeze, leader of the terrorist group the SLA (Symbionese Liberation Army).

    Instead of Svengali Effect I should have said the Stockholm syndrome, or capture–bonding. Psychiatrist Frank Ochberg helped define the term.

  128. Blouise April 24, 2013 at 3:22 pm
    SwM,

    Maybe the FBI and DHS did fumble the ball after the Russians warned them about #1. What I want to know is how the Russians knew about him in the first place … and we didn’t. If I were an enterprising journalist, I’d be very curious about that one.

    You must understand that the Chechans are under CONSTANT surveillance by the FSB (formerly KGB). They are #1 enemy of the Russian state. That surveillance does NOT stop in Europe or Asia. It extends to USA too. If your familiar with the new TV show “The Americans (2013 TV series)” you begin to see how far the KGB has infiltrated USA. There is no indication it ever stopped after “Perestroika” and “Glasnost”.
    —————–
    Yes that overall complex is where Fort Mott resides I believe. We used that Fort up until Spanish-American war and maybe even WW1. You have to check it out if your ever in Salem County NJ (lots of Americana there). I’m sure Bruce Willis used to play there after school. It’s a really imposing place. They also executed prisoners there. It is next to the Delaware River looking toward Philadelphia. Yes it is near Pea Patch Island, just north of the nuclear power plant Bruce worked at as security guard (playing his harmonica over PA system! The NRC just loved Bruce!).
    —————–
    Yes I used to live in Philly. I used to be the resident spook/haunt at the Franklin Institute. I had full FREE access due to my mom as she worked there. Ben was quite an interesting dude. You’d be amazed at what he invented and not too much in the spotlight. Recently I’m getting blown away by what Leonardo DaVinci invented and not spoke of too much. Did you know he developed a rudimentary wooden sword fighting robot of sorts? It had a rudimentary “voice” too via a bellow (i.e. grunts). Also designed a adjustable mortar cannon and a rudimentary machine-gun!
    —————–

  129. rafflaw – April 24, 2013 at 4:26 pm
    Swarthmore,
    I want to echo Blouise’s response to your comment that you can be on the terror watch list and prevented from flying, but you are still able to buy a gun. That is a good summation of the state of this country.
    My real first & last name is so darned common I know I’m on there. Is there any way to make them prove it’s you? Like DOB, SSN, or something?

  130. sonofthunderboanerges,

    Oh yeah, The Americans on FX is one of my favorites. I watched the first episode, yawned but figured I give it a chance. By the 3rd episode I was hooked. Looking forward to tonight @ 10pm.

  131. sonofthunder, The no fly list and the terror watch list are different lists. If you think you are on the no fly list, show up at the airport and try to fly somewhere.

  132. He’s a weasel, Blouise. “The Americans” is pulling off a difficult task and not dissimilar to “Dexter”. They’re making you root for ostensibly the bad guys.

  133. No, Dredd,

    Conspiracy is a separate charge — probably in this case under 18 U.S.C. 371, which is not cited in the complaint.

    The affidavit is not the complaint. In fact the complaint says: “This criminal complaint is based on these facts: See Attached Affidavit of Special Agent Daniel R. Genck”. The affidavit provides facts to support the complaint — it is not define the scope of the complaint.

    In any case, you read the complaint and the magistrate judge read the complaint. I think the magistrate judge has a little better grasp of these things.

    Ultimately, there will be an indictment or an information, but for now there is no conspiracy charge.

  134. What gets me about The Americans (2013) is that they show the FBI involvement in that Cold War mess of that time period (1980’s) but they show very little CIA and NSA involvement which was much more intense then the FBI’s. What tickles me is that John Boy’s part (Richard Thomas) as Bill Webster. Boy do they seem alike. Bill is now our Homeland Security Advisory Council chairman. He was DCI once too just after FBI.

  135. rafflaw – April 24, 2013 at 9:32 pm
    Sonofthunder,
    Neither, but I worked with a survivor.

    I’ve known both. I knew this old Belgian concentration camp guard who worked for a photo dept at a department store. He went AWHOL to the Russians (stole a uniform) then onto to the Allied lines to defect to the Americans. And I’ve known a few survivors too. I told one of them about the old guy and she was not very happy about my story.

  136. Swarthmore mom – April 24, 2013 at 6:03 pm
    sonofthunder, The no fly list and the terror watch list are different lists. If you think you are on the no fly list, show up at the airport and try to fly somewhere.

    Oh no I’m not on the TWL (I hope). I meant the NFL. I heard the late Sen Ted Kennedy got on a NFL and didn’t care who he said he was. But that’s the TSA falks for ya’!

    I haven’t flown in a while; I think the last aircraft I was on was an old Bell helicopter back a few years ago. Then I stepped foot on a Black Hawk once but we never took off. Last time I was on a commercial flight was to San Diego pre-9/11. Since then I drive or take the bus. I like trains but haven’t been on one of them for awhile either.

    I’ve got one of those John Smith kinda’ names so I must be on their somewhere. I just hope that if I have to fly again there’s someway to prove I’m not THAT John Smith…
    ————————
    BTW – thanks for the link to the 3 murdered druggies. However, I don’t think Tsarnaev did it. It looks like something Whitey Bulger might have ordered. I mean the hitter left a load of marijuana and $5 grand behind. I don’t think Tsarnaev would have left that behind. Sounds like a message was being sent out by some kingpin. Anyway, wasn’t Tsarnaev in Russia at that time?
    ————————
    Hey now I see the Tsarnaev parents are in Russia? What gives? I thought they became naturalized US citizens a couple of years ago. And then go BACK to Russia? WTF?

  137. Blouise – April 24, 2013 at 6:12 pm
    Gene,

    Lordy… I despise Agent Beeman …

    Yeah Noah is a good actor. I wonder if Joseph Weisberg is going to work him into a FBI agent Robert Philip Hansen character. Not sure but the plot-line seems vaguely similar. I’d sure like to see if they work in Nosenko, Golitsyn, and Kalugin (a few very notable KGB defectors – out of many).

    To show you that the Cold War spy games have not ended yet just Google: Stanislav Borisovich Grusev. Albeit, it was 14 years ago I assure you Putin’s men & women are still busy little beavers. However, not as busy as another so-called “friendly” young nation does to US.

  138. Am I hearing things right or what? I just heard that Dzokhar Tsarnaev ADMITTED to his involvement BEFORE being Mirandized by FBI??? WTH is going on here? They now can’t use ANY of that testimony in court. With Jay Carney’s totally F’d up remarks the other day and now this fakakta B.S. What are they trying to sabotage the case against Dzokhar? And why? I wonder what AG Eric Holder is saying right now.

  139. sonofthunderboanerges,

    re the NYTimes link

    I wonder if that’s where writers got the idea for the series.

  140. Interesting article from NYTIMES about Tsarnaev parents (who are American ex-patriots now) and the alleged idea that FBI & CIA screwed up. Also speaks to Russian FSB/SVR dummying up about Tsarnaev’s radicalization by Umarov (i.e. Caucasus Emirates terrorist group – extremist Chechan Muslim group)

    http://nyti.ms/Y6Q1ej

  141. Blouise – April 25, 2013 at 1:59 pm
    sonofthunderboanerges,

    re the NYTimes link

    I wonder if that’s where writers got the idea for the series.

    You and I think alike. As I was just reading my NY Times link about the 2010 Russian spies I started thinking the same thing as you. We need to OSINT data-mine this Joseph Weisberg (creator of The Americans) a little huh? He must have an interesting back-story? (LOL)

  142. Here ya go:

    Joseph Weisberg is a former CIA officer who grew up in Chicago and currently lives in New York City.

    Well, CIA … that explains the unsympathetic characterization of FBI Agent Beeman ;)

  143. Blouise – April 25, 2013 at 2:24 pm
    Here ya go:

    Joseph Weisberg is a former CIA officer who grew up in Chicago and currently lives in New York City.

    Well, CIA … that explains the unsympathetic characterization of FBI Agent Beeman

    Very good Blouise! I would have never figured Joe for a spook… Yes that does explain a lot. The agency people refer to FBI as Phoebe or FeeBee in a quasi-derogatory way. I don’t think the agency feels too sympathetic about Hansen and TRW’s Christopher Boyce (who’s dad was FBI). But they had Ames (et al) so they really can’t talk.

  144. What an embarrassment to America to have an elected official representing the greatest country on earth make a statement that Hitler would have said about the people he exterminated. Shameful. Reading the vast majority of comments make me realize that as a country we are above such horror and justification. Does this mean I do not think every terrorist should be blown off the face of the earth….of course not. They are sub-human and should not exist!

  145. @Blouise – The article says Joe was a CIA Case Officer. That means he was with Directorate of Operations (DO) aka National Clandestine Service (NCS). If you want to see a great movie that depicts what a CIA Case Officer does in the field and the total B.S. that goes along with it, then watch this Robert Redford/Brad Pitt movie online for free right here: http://tinyurl.com/c9t8abw

    I love this movie but it can be depressing. It’s over 2 hours long. Their technical adviser was ex-DEA agent Don Ferrarone. But the director was Tony Scott. The British guy who jumped off the bridge in San Pedro CA last year.

  146. Marty Heiman – April 25, 2013 at 3:07 pm
    What an embarrassment to America to have an elected official representing the greatest country on earth make a statement that Hitler would have said about the people he exterminated. Shameful. Reading the vast majority of comments make me realize that as a country we are above such horror and justification. Does this mean I do not think every terrorist should be blown off the face of the earth….of course not. They are sub-human and should not exist!

    I get your angst but you need to read a great book from a CIA officer assigned to the Ben Laden desk. He says we (USA) hands are not clean either. Sen Ball’s comments are reprehensible. However, the bad guys are just as human as you are. Before passing judgement try and not use so much hubris and see what their issue(s) were. Being a knee-jerk American is just another “ugly American” trait.

    The book is: Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror by Michael Scheuer.

  147. sonofthunderboanerges – April 25, 2013 at 11:49 am
    What gets me about The Americans (2013) is that they show the FBI involvement in that Cold War mess of that time period (1980′s) but they show very little CIA and NSA involvement which was much more intense then the FBI’s. What tickles me is that John Boy’s part (Richard Thomas) as Bill Webster. Boy do they seem alike. Bill is now our Homeland Security Advisory Council chairman. He was DCI once too just after FBI.

    I just figured out WHY Joe Weisberg isn’t writing in more CIA (and maybe NSA) roles in his Cold War TV Show *The Americans (2013)*. The NY Times article I cited above said he is sending EVERYTHING to Langley (CIA) for full vetting. I think the unofficial nickname is Operation Hollywood. If most of his alphabet soup characters are FBI why send it to the CIA?

  148. I remember the Redford/ Pitt movie. In fact, just rewatched it recently.

    “If most of his alphabet soup characters are FBI why send it to the CIA?” (chuckle)

  149. @Blouise – I love all of the Scott brothers films. I’m watching *Kingdom of Heaven (2005)* right now while I’m typing:

    http://megashare.info/watch-kingdom-of-heaven-online-TWpBMw

    The music alone is awesome, even in Spy Game (2001) too. The music scores are by Harry Gregson-Williams. “My Name is Tom” is simply mesmerizing, especially the Gregorian chant near the end. Can’t tell if the language is Latin or Gaelic. But is quite beautiful. Its in the scene where Brad Pitt (Tom Bishop) meets Catherine McCormack (Elizabeth Hadley).

  150. I think Senator Ball will like this one…

    A suggestion for how to torture Tsarneav or Umarov… From Tony Scott’s movie “Man on Fire (2004)” – ex CIA Contractor (i.e. “mechanic”) Creasey (played by Denzel Washington) inserts a 5m low-level explosive suppository in a corrupt Mexican cop’s wazoo. Creasey sets his DS&T supplied R/C digital watch to 40s. He tells the cop what is going to happen next.

    The corrupt cop begs Creasy “One last wish, please, please, PLEASE!”. Creasy responds while walking away at around 2 seconds left: “Last wish? I wish you had more time…” b-o-o-m! (of course the cop gave up some actionable intel BEFORE this)… :-)

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