New Mexico Man Stopped For Minor Traffic Violation and Given Digital and Surgical Anal Exams Is Charged $6000 By The Hospital For His “Medical Care”

220px-PVC-HandschuhYesterday, we discussed the horrific allegations against police from Deming, New Mexico and the medial staff of Gila Regional Medical Center in Silver City, N.M. They (and others including the local prosecutor) allegedly conducted repeated digital anal searches of man stopped for a minor traffic violation and then performed multiple enemas and a colonoscopy in search of drugs. David Eckert has sued for both compensatory and punitive damages. However, I learned today that in addition to the alleged physical abuse, he was sent a $6000 bill from the hospital for the involuntary colonoscopy.

His lawyer says that the hospital sent him the bill, which is perfectly bizarre. They must be treating this as if he had come into the hospital unconscious and required the procedure. Yet, he was objecting to the procedures and the other intrusive measures taken against him. Hopefully, the court will rule against the likely motion al limine filed by the hospital to keep the bill out of the trial. I would love to see the jury that is informed at the end of this alleged nightmare, Eckert received a bill for his mistreatment. As opposing counsel, it is sometimes better to be the one to mention such damaging facts in your opening argument to avoid Plaintiff’s counsel dropping it with greater effect at trial.

What is clear is that, regardless of the outcome at trial, someone needs to be fired for such absurd acts. My assumption is that the police declined the bill for the procedure but it is not clear who made this decision.

Source: US News

145 thoughts on “New Mexico Man Stopped For Minor Traffic Violation and Given Digital and Surgical Anal Exams Is Charged $6000 By The Hospital For His “Medical Care”

  1. Gotta hand it to the hospitals, no matter what they do they will bill you. The good news is this is that the 6k they charged will be a pittance compared to what these a holes will be paying out in legal fees and settlements.

  2. Are there any laws which penalize frivolous billings? It seems that the hospital should be criminally liable for doing this since it is clearly an illegal billing. It seems near extortion and I think that such a billing could be grounds for intentional harassment and retaliation for this guy complaining about their illegal activities.

  3. I certainly agree with your objection of sending him the bill, but I also object to how the hospital can charge so much money … $6,000? Is that not a sum to be questioned for an examination like this? His life was not in danger. Such a high price tag indicates that the medical community is out of control with prices, and making us buy insurance in order to pay it is the wrong approach. If a mechanic sent him this bill to inspect the muffler on his car, you can bet there would be outcry about it and the bill would never get paid. We really should not treat the medical community any differently. I do not understand why they always get a free pass on gouging their customers.

  4. If the procedure were covered by insurance, the bill would have been less than half of what was charged. But in its defense, the hospital billing office probably could not locate a code for a “colonoscopy and battery.”

    Why can’t I ever get a case like this?

  5. if a mechanic was legally obligated to, at the very least, stabilize and transport every car that came in the door regardless of the ability of the owner to pay that argument might make sense.

    great thing about the affordable care act (obamacare). since everyone will have a minimum of health insurance, hospitals should be paid something for the emergency room care they have been providing for free.

    so hospital costs should go down.

    though i doubt that will make mr. eckert’s a$$ feel any better.

  6. The hospital and doctors do not expect payment when they make these absurd billing charges to uninsured people. They do however intend to use these charges as a tax write off. All of these unpaid charges which are double the negotiated insurance rate and triple the Medicare rate are counted as a loss. This scam is why the medical industry is the third most powerful special interest in DC.

  7. I can guarantee you that emergency room visits are not free.

    If the services were ordered by a government agency the hospital and medical personnel are held harmless unless their actions were clearly illegal.

  8. There are federal color of law statutes to prosecute this police department, the Department of Justice could initiate the proceedings against these criminals. One statute covers “pattern & practice” dealing with a culture of corruption where the entire department can be restructured and the top management removed from office.

  9. If he was in custody I think it’s the Law enforcements bill….. I think I’d be shifting if I got this bill….

  10. If I was the lawyer for Anal exam John I would stand up at jury selection and slowly pull on a pair of rubber gloves over each hand as I conducted voir dire. In closing statement I would leave them up on the rostrum for the other guy to deal with when it was his time to give his closing argument. Drape em over the edge up at the top so the jury could see them. I would ask for a sum of money for each penetration equal to the squeals the jurors each felt each time they heard about it from the witness stand. I would suggest a hundred thousand for a finger, five hundred thousand for an enema and then puns of twenty times actual damages. In addition to damages I would seek declaratory judgment and injunction against the igPays and the hospital. The igPays are reliable to do this again and I would want them to be liable for it.

  11. New Mexico is Pirate Territory which abuts (no pun intended) Mexico which is a civilized nationstate. When flying down to Acapulco for vacation and you fly over New Mexico, please flush the toilet.

    We dogs like to identify the various Pirate Territories mentioned on this blog which are casually referred to in the Articles on topic as countries or states. By so doing we remind readers that there are tiers of various places on Earth and they are not all civilized nations which uphold the rights of man or beast. East of Corfu the Ten Commandments do not apply. But it is worse than that. The list is worldwide. Sometimes the territories are controlled from top down and other places from bottom up. In New Mexico you have it both ways. No pun intended. These people in that town in New Mexico have a lot on their plate, so to speak. If you drive through and stop in the truck stop do not eat off a plate. God only knows if the dishwasher or waiter has a second job at the hospital. You know they don’t wash up right in Pirate Territories. But Jeso do not drive into New Mexico. If you do wear a metal uttBay bucket with a lock on it that they cannot cut off.

  12. Pete wrote: “if a mechanic was legally obligated to, at the very least, stabilize and transport every car that came in the door regardless of the ability of the owner to pay that argument might make sense.”

    During the Reagan years, the EMTALA was passed because of various outrageous situations, such as women giving birth in the reception area of a hospital, or patients being transferred to non-emergency care with a knife still in their back. However, for the most part, these kinds of situations were not common. Still, because it should never happen, the law basically was created that any hospital participating in Medicare benefits had to stabilize patients and release them with their consent. Hospitals or medicare professionals who do not participate in Medicare are not required to do this.

    So if you are going to pass a law that pays mechanics to provide free services to seniors, and then require them to make unsafe cars safe, you might have a point. My point is simply that the human body is like a machine, and a doctor is basically a mechanic who uses his knowledge of the body and of chemistry to treat people in a way that increases their odds of recovery. People enshrine the function of medical doctors because they fear what might happen without them. At some point, we need to wake up and realize that the medical community is gouging us because of our fear of what might happen to us if they were not there. I choose not to operate by fear. I do not want to pay for the insurance executives and doctors’ mansions, fancy cars, etc.

    Pete wrote: “great thing about the affordable care act (obamacare). since everyone will have a minimum of health insurance, hospitals should be paid something for the emergency room care they have been providing for free. so hospital costs should go down.”

    This is a completely unrealistic expectation. Obamacare has absolutely no provisions to compensate hospitals for uncompensated emergency care. Many people will opt to pay the fine instead of buying insurance, so not everyone will have minimum health insurance as you claim. Hospitals will still jack up their rates because the insurance companies are there to pay it, and the government will give hospitals a tax write off for the people who abuse the system.

    Obamacare is basically going to worsen the situation because it favors insurance companies, which are the very culprits in why medical prices are so high. If there was no such thing as insurance companies, medical services would be much lower. Nobody would pay the bills being handed out. But because of insurance, prices have escalated out of control. Now the government has basically bailed out the insurance companies through Obamacare, giving their stamp of approval to this industry, basically communicating falsely to the public that we cannot live without insurance and that they are the savior of mankind. I personally do not follow that line of thinking. When my time comes to die, I will face it with dignity, hopefully without medical doctors trying to treat me. I resent the fact that government is operating in a way to block my desire to live my life without interference from the medical community. I realize that my views are in the minority, but I think that I have the right to make these choices for myself. I wish the government would butt out of my life in the area of health care.

  13. Once again we see a vivid example of how this country is becoming a fascist state where the local police have become the new SS. Of course none of these semi literate morons will ever be disciplined despite the fact that there flagrant violations of this man’s constitutional rights will hopefully cost their employers a fortune

  14. I don’t know anything about that particular hospital, but do know quite a bit about hospitals in general. The billing and accounts receivable departments are completely separate from the medical service departments. Neither knows anything about what the other is doing. The emergency department clerk obtains basic information about every patient who walks through the door, no matter if they are in custody or the free world. That is entered into the computer and sent to the billing department electronically. There are a couple of standard signature forms all hospitals use, including an agreement to pay what insurance does not cover and the informed consent form. I would like to know if Mr. Eckert signed those, of if he did, did he do it under duress? If he signed the forms, it creates a hurdle for his own attorney, but nothing insurmountable. I would love to see the informed consent form and know what Mr. Eckert was told if he did in fact sign it. Such as just how “informed” was the consent.

  15. From the US News article:

    “Officers then transported Eckert to the Gila Regional Medical Center after an emergency room doctor at a Deming, N.M., hospital told them “this is unethical,” Kennedy said. The doctor who refused to comply with police is willing to testify if the lawsuit goes to trial, according to Kennedy.”

    Kennedy filed a motion for summary judgment Oct. 24, asking the court to rule on the facts of the case, which she says are not disputed. She says defendants responded by expressing interest in resolving the case outside of court.”

    LOL. I’m not an attorney, but would imagine that the defense will go to great lengths to keep this from going to trial.

    Thankfully, there was at least one physician who said “no” to the police.

  16. When you seek treatment from a doctor or a hospital you, typically, sign an agreement/contract to pay for the procedure if the insurance company won’t pay or for any other reason the doctor or hospital can not get paid. Two simple moves automatically void a contract, fraud and negligence.

    If Eckert agreed to pay in writing then he is screwed legally. If he did not then there is no contract. If the hospital did not get a signed agreement and/or acted against the wishes of the subject, then there is no legal way they can collect.

    Unfortunately this is the USA and judges are systems of laws unto themselves, especially in the South. Who ever sent the bill out is an idiot and contributes to the excessive costs of American health care. One of the largest ingredients is legal costs. The hospital will pay well over $6k and probably, hopefully not get paid and on top of that may be fined.

  17. Sadly, this appears to be heading to settlement out of court. It is very likely other misdeeds by this department that will not see the light of day now. From my view, the scope of the violation at multiple levels warrants a federal investigation.

  18. Michaelb, I don’t think that settling the civil case will preclude Federal charges against the crooks. I am reminded of a case involving BP agents Ramos and Compean who were tried and found guilty of shooting a career drug smuggler who fought with them, ran away across the Rio Grande. This was an extreme case of prosecuting two agents who acted legally and in good faith, but the US attorney decided that it would make good political capital to prosecute them. They got a savage sentence of 15 yrs in prison, but were later commuted by Bush at the end of his term.

    This case is so egregious that I hope that enough political pressure can be brought to force criminal charges against all the defendants, including the doctors. I am afraid that the doctors might skate and keep their licenses unless they are convicted of the felonies which they committed. The cops need to get some serious prison time, otherwise they and their fellow cops will continue these kinds of things.

  19. “I don’t know anything about that particular hospital, but do know quite a bit about hospitals in general. The billing and accounts receivable departments are completely separate from the medical service departments.”

    OS,

    I’m positive that this is the explanation as I’ve seen many a bill come and go from my own medical care that I had no obligation to pay, but was incorrectly sent out by the billing department.

    What makes this follo-up story so interesting though is the adding “insult to injury” factor for a completely innocent man. More than a few people should be summarily fired for this is truly an outrage and its perpetration was the height of stupidity and arrogance.

  20. ap,

    Things are starting to unfold … though sadly, perhaps only because there is money to be made.

    If this first case is settled out of court and I can understand why for, after all, the man is 63 years old and wants to get on with the rest of his life, but … out of court keeps so much of the necessary info that would benefit all of us from us.

  21. I find that I am actually in agreement (partially) with davidm on something. The Affordable Care Act is an unnecessary boon to the health insurance industry. However, I disagree that the solution is to eliminate government involvement in health care. The solution is to eliminate insurance company involvement in health care. That means creation of a single-payer system, and I am convinced that it will eventually happen..

  22. What Mike A. said about getting cases like this extraordinary one from New Mexico. As to the ACA, I agree but there was no way that a single payer system would have passed. I do believe that the ACA will eventually lead to a single payer system.

  23. I don’t know NM laws or even most of Oklahoma’s, as they pass so many new ones that get buried ever year.

    I did see Okla passed an up grade to the laws reg. Noodling.

    Could it be the police & doctors in New Mexico were just Noodling up there searching for Catfish Charlie?

    (attempt at Dark Humor)

  24. “Things are starting to unfold … though sadly, perhaps only because there is money to be made.

    If this first case is settled out of court and I can understand why for, after all, the man is 63 years old and wants to get on with the rest of his life, but … out of court keeps so much of the necessary info that would benefit all of us from us.” -Blouise

    Agreed, Blouise. Personally, I’d like to see this go to trial, but it isn’t likely to happen, it would seem.

    As for “things…starting to unfold?” Not quickly enough, unfortunately, but we seem to be moving in the right direction Quoting Theodore Parker:

    “Look at the facts of the world. You see a continual and progressive triumph of the right. I do not pretend to understand the moral universe, the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways. I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. But from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.

    Things refuse to be mismanaged long. Jefferson trembled when he thought of slavery and remembered that God is just. Ere long all America will tremble.”

  25. The solution is to eliminate insurance company involvement in health care. That means creation of a single-payer system, and I am convinced that it will eventually happen.. -Mike Appleton

    As to the ACA, I agree but there was no way that a single payer system would have passed. I do believe that the ACA will eventually lead to a single payer system. -rafflaw

    I agree. Some of us may not live to see it, but single payer is inevitable, IMO.

  26. Correction:

    …we seem to be moving in the right direction. Quoting Theodore Parker:

    “Look at the facts of the world. You see a continual and progressive triumph of the right. I do not pretend to understand the moral universe, the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways. I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. But from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.

    Things refuse to be mismanaged long. Jefferson trembled when he thought of slavery and remembered that God is just. Ere long all America will tremble.”

  27. **but single payer is inevitable**

    It may happen that way but I do not support it.

    All roads lead back to getting rid of the Federal Reserve, Income tax system & remove all withholdings from peoples paychecks.assets.

    AKA: Put the people back in direct control of all their money.

    The govt/corporations then have to shake it out of the people’s hands.

    Those that fall through the cracks could be funded by a State run Medicaid from govt royalty payments, tariffs, rents from things like airwaves, etc & monopoly rents.

    All these decades of Wallst/City of London’s “Vertically Interrogated”, “Centralized Planning” economic crap, I’m just sick of it.

    It’s passed time to head the complete opposite direction!!

    “Horizontal Interrogation” & “Decentralized Planning”

  28. If a patient is in the custody of the police, we bill the department for any treatment. The cops are the ones that ordered the colonoscopy, right???

  29. Let’s see, although if you conducted a poll here before this cl@sterf@ck of Obamacare the majority would have said, “We want single payer.” However, out in the world, the majority of people did not want single payer before, and will want it even less now. I have been on quixotic missions in my life so I understand the thought process. Keep charging those windmills troops!

  30. anonymously posted 1, November 7, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    The solution is to eliminate insurance company involvement in health care. That means creation of a single-payer system, and I am convinced that it will eventually happen.. -Mike Appleton

    As to the ACA, I agree but there was no way that a single payer system would have passed. I do believe that the ACA will eventually lead to a single payer system. -rafflaw

    I agree. Some of us may not live to see it, but single payer is inevitable, IMO.

    *****

    A public option would have been good–but the Democrats caved on that.

  31. They “caved” because there were some Dems who would not vote for it. When you ram legislation through on a party line vote you need EVERYONE to toe that line.

  32. All the responses thus far blamed the hospital / physicians.
    Is it so obvious that the Police performed what was expected of them?…

    O tempora! O mores!

  33. The Republicans did win more elections right after Obamacare “passed.” And, if you read something other than Mother Jones, The Nation, etc. you would see Dems are back peddling on Obamacare like a cornerback trying to cover Dez Bryant. We need some reform on a bipartisan vote.

  34. Elaine M., Raf, everyone.

    I’ve noticed most of you really have posted some great stuff here that’s found almost no where else.

    The other day OS posted a short piece on how we should behave respectfully towards others in person & here posting.

    I meant to save it to a file as I liked it, but lost track of it.

    I attempt to remain civil/polite, but fall short sometimes when an ole pain of mine starts it’s often nightly flare up.

    With all that polite nicety talk out of the way, people are driving me half looney by saying any nice thing about Obamacare or going further past Obama in that general direction.

    The people supporting that crap appear either drunk out of their minds or absolutely evil.

    If I found a friend in that type of drunkin state I’d drag them out from behind the wheel of the car, take the keys & throw them in a back room to sober up.

    Obamacare isn’t meant to improve healthcare & improve access to it, it’s nothing but a damn scam meant to rip people of for the govt/wallst profits & leave the people in worst state of health or dead.

    I don’t know where people are getting their info to form their views from, but I hope they’ll seek out alternative views & read some of the actual language contained in the law & consider why I & many other feel it’s a rotten way to deal with health issues.

  35. I know website problems are really scary to people of a certain age, but IT issues aren’t the same as problems with the program. Relax. The kinks will get worked out.

  36. Juliet, lol. They have such a great track record of choosing their nominees, right? Now with baby Cruz and daddy Cruz, they finally have their “pure enough” candidate. I say go for it righties!

  37. Whatever will they grouse about when the website functions well and enough people see a savings and a better insurance plan? Having said that I prefer Single Payer. I wonder if we will see it reintroduced if we have a Democratic House, Senate and Presidency. That is when I could see an uprising of the “Patriots” in earnest. If they think the ACA is socialistic, their heads will explode with any serious attempts at Single Payer. I can see it now.

  38. Raff and Elaine: Single player eventually? I think a government option is going to be a necessity. There are a lot of areas that aren’t getting the kinds of competition necessary to make the plan work. Some areas are covered by only one or two insurance companies and the plans they offer are still prohibitively expensive.

    One of the talk shows did the report on the areas not being covered just last week. They said that the areas not well covered are rural and also in states that did not set up their own exchanges or expand medicaid so the pool of consumers is depressed, they’re not attractive to insurance business.

    The talking heads didn’t make any predictions but it seems to me that the way to get around those limitations (and on the road to single payer) is a government option. It would be ironic if the foot-dragging by Republican Governors pushed the government toward a government option and/or single payer.

  39. Annie,

    Cruz, Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Leahy, etc, they all are working for the same bosses basically & it’s not us, “We the People”.

    just look at the thread we are on & then consider who voted for the Patriot Act, John Warren Defence Act, Supreme Court Rulings, State Dept Memorandum 200 & on & on…

    It’s a big Club & we’re not in it, we’re just getting hit over the head by it & with $6000 involuntary anal examines.

  40. Our health care system has always been plagued by a lack of competition. Always. Individuals just weren’t as aware of it, because insurance has been primarily issued through employers. Ask any HR person what a pain open enrollment time is.

    This is nothing new and the ACA didn’t cause it. Any and all issues could easily be addressed by Congress, if it were so inclined.

  41. Mike Appleton wrote: “The solution is to eliminate insurance company involvement in health care. That means creation of a single-payer system, and I am convinced that it will eventually happen..”

    But why do you think the FEDERAL government must be involved?

    As you know, here in Florida we have county health departments, which are basically a single payer system for health care. What is wrong with that? Why do we need the federal government to be involved at all?

    And by the way, while I don’t care about government health care for me and my family, I realize that I am in the minority. I am very willing to compromise and pitch in to help with health care for the community in which I live. I just don’t want the federal government involved, because they invariably waste our money. We don’t need the added bureaucracy. I just don’t see any purpose that the federal government serves in this capacity.

  42. It is interesting that a discussion on Obamacare had to come as a sidebar to a police, hospital abuse post. Maybe that’s because that although the train wreck has been front page for the last 2-3 weeks there have been no posts on Obamacare. It’s radioactive and everyone but the lemmings know it.

  43. New Democratic President, new goals. No more capitulation, (hopefully and changefully) which lost Obama some of his base.

  44. Pick up the newest edition of Time. There is a picture of Christie w/ the title “The Elephant in the Room.” Fat people are not a protected class in the PC world. Shameful.

  45. Juliet N wrote: “This is nothing new and the ACA didn’t cause it. Any and all issues could easily be addressed by Congress, if it were so inclined.”

    You have a lot more confidence in Congress than I do. Are they going to rewrite the law so people can go back to buying catastrophic insurance if they want? I don’t think so.

    What we are seeing with the website is only the tip of the iceberg, and when we see what happens over the next 10 years if we keep trying to prop up a bad law will make the website issue seem like a comical almost forgotten fluke. The President and his fellow Democrats seriously underestimated how difficult it would be to have the federal government assume the responsibility of healthcare for everyone. They will never be able to handle everyone in the country. They will blame everybody but themselves. It will be Bush’s fault, or the sluggish economies fault, or the fault of businesses for changing the hours of their workers, or it is the IT guys fault who did not do what they were contracted to do, or it is the insurance companies fault for canceling older policies, or it is the fault of the younger generation who would rather pay a fine than buy insurance.

    Since you say that Congress will address it, following is a link to how the Senate has dealt with Obamacare more than a year ago:

    Health Law Spends $2.6 Trillion Over First Full Ten Years – the law will significantly increase—not reduce—federal deficits.
    http://www.budget.senate.gov/republican/public/index.cfm/budget-background?ID=9594b951-2651-48b5-8805-8709ce7685c5

    The Senate Budget Committee can sound the alarm, but the Democrats in office are not listening because it is their pet project and the bill for it all will fall upon the next generation who will be the ones blamed for bankrupting the country. That’s politics as usual in the U.S.A.

  46. Yes, when you win a majority in the House, a majority in the Senate and the White House, you get to pass your agenda. And? You people act like it was cheating. They won enough elections to do it. That’s the way America works. Welcome to civics.

  47. The three BRANCHES of the government are the Congress, the Executive and the Judicial. Not the House, the Senate and the Presidency.

  48. You said “House Senate and Presidency” and then you responded to my answer. But you couldn’t leave it, you had to try and be the smartest person. I was a high school history teacher. Now, drop the childish horseshit, please.

  49. David: “Catastrophic insurance” is worthless. People shouldn’t be able to buy it and then hospitals and taxpayers still get stuck with the bill.

    Annie: I think this is the sixth or seventh different career I’ve hear Mr. Spinelli mention. It seems he has trouble fitting in everywhere.

  50. Juliet N wrote: “Yes, when you win a majority in the House, a majority in the Senate and the White House, you get to pass your agenda. And? You people act like it was cheating.”

    It is not cheating, but it is irresponsible. We Republicans will have to win more elections, you are right about that. Part of our difficulty is that many Republicans are defecting to Libertarian or other parties, which splits the vote. But I can tell you one thing, when we do win elections and get in office, we will not sneak through a 2,000 page bill that nobody read in the dead of night on Christmas Eve without a single vote from the other party… a bill that will move the country more quickly toward bankruptcy. We will not be that irresponsible. A bill that has only votes from one party would not be a bill worth passing. It would be a bill that will causes societal conflict. That is common sense.

  51. Juliet N wote: ““Catastrophic insurance” is worthless. People shouldn’t be able to buy it and then hospitals and taxpayers still get stuck with the bill.”

    You are being a bit selfish with this statement. It might be worthless to you, but not to everybody or it never would have existed. A plan which allows only three hospital visits a year and covers 100% costs with no deductible is a good plan to some people. Obamacare says nope, your plan needs to cover maternity care, blah, blah, blah. I delivered five children, never needed health insurance. Some people run to the doctor every week. For seniors, going to the doctor is the social event of the day. For other people, they don’t need the doctor.

  52. David: Oh, we know you wouldn’t! That’s why Mr. Obama was reelected. You people have it made it abundantly clear you’ll do nothing to help the American people. Instead, you’ll start another war we can’t afford, with people who didn’t attack us, and put that on the credit card. Then you’ll give more tax breaks to the very people who take their businesses and their money overseas to avoid paying their fair share. Then you’ll spend ever single second trying to regulate private behavior and keep Americans from citing.

    That’s why you keep losing. Glad you’re too delusional to see it. More elections for us.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  53. lotta, Thanks for the info. As YOU KNOW, the Dems were in control and for a variety of reasons, few if any of them being noble, Obamacare is what they were able to pass. The problems extend way beyond the website. However, the website is a metaphor. We disagree on this subject, but intellectual honesty is always appreciated and it this case shines brightly.

  54. Speaking of the Christie cover, I saw it on Morning Joe today. I tweeted Joe, Mika, Mar Halperin and Time to complain about how nasty and mean-spirited it is.

  55. It is red meat, Julia. But, it’s compounded by the fact that it was done not only in a mean spirit, but also to sell magazines. Magazines are dying and this is how they are choosing out to go out..classless.

  56. David: “For seniors, going to the doctor is the social event of the day. For other people, they don’t need the doctor.”
    *

    I’m a old fart. The better half is an old fart. Going to the doctor is a real pain. I see a lot old old farts at the doctors office, way more than younger people. They are like the better half and I, they spent too many week-ends sitting as close as possible to the stage during music concerts and are hearing impaired so they talk loud. They are ill with age and disease and many are dying by degrees (or have actual shelf-life dates) and from what I hear from them and the doctor (he talks loud to them and if you sit in an exam room you get to hear at least two other patients discussions with the doctor). If their visit to the doctor is the event of the day it’s because they are no longer capable of getting out of the house because one of them requires constant assistance and care.

    Going to the doctors office breaks my heart.

    Your views and opinions and truths are so diametrically opposed to objective reality it is simply unbelievable to me that you aren’t operating from a script. Unless you are an member of a religion (or cult) that keeps a large family and a small, insular community and need not worry about someone to care for you in your old age or intervening difficulty. You say things that veer into that direction. That’s actually cool. For you. If that’s the way you insulate yourself from the concerns and lives of the persons you so casually dismiss across the social spectrum.

    You have no idea what most peoples lives are like.

  57. Nick, I know that if I was the majority leader of the Senate I would have wheeled Sen. Ted Kennedy’s dead body onto the floor and had someone raise his putrefying hand to vote until I could no longer get away with it. The country would have been much better off now if there had actually been a Democratic majority in the House and Senate. As it stands we have the most obstructionist House and Senate in US history. Five years of non-action and counting. Except for taking food out of the mouths of hungry children. There is that.

  58. @randyjet

    about that Ramos/Compean incident, I understand that it I considered part of the job for the American thugs in uniform called “law enforcement officers” to shoot people in the back. And that, unlike in civilized countries, they do not need to fear any repercussions when shooting people in the back. But don’t you think it is a little too much to then complain if in ONE instance the law prevails? Even if it is just to keep up the appearance of the US as a civilized nation of laws (which as we all know it is not)? I don’t think ten years is harsh for shooting someone in the back. If it had been a black guy in the street doing that they would lock him up for the rest of his life.

  59. “I agree. Some of us may not live to see it (single payer system), but single payer is inevitable, IMO.” (ap)

    It might well be in our lifetime. I don’t opine that based on a crystal ball but on the very real fact that long term smart money started getting out of medical health insurance about six months ago. (check your mutuals for some of that) Short term smart money is still in it.

    Once the long term smart money leaves it’s guaranteed that changes are in the pipeline. All the political rants aside (which are mainly just cover jobs for Republican state administrations that have left their people stranded … especially rural areas), watch the long term money investments. I think single payer is going to move a lot faster than imagined because the models are well established. There will be a place for medical health insurance companies probably similar to Plan B’s under Medicare but those will be heavily influenced by State agencies … and, of course, … Cadillac policies for the wealthy who need to feel special.

    All in all … the heyday is over for medical insurance companies which is why the long term smart money is moving.

    (Even Kasich in Ohio saw the light before it was too late and boy are the TPartyers mad at him!)

  60. lotta, That is commitment. And, although I was never a fan of Teddy, we both know he would have abided your plan for his ghoulish vote, post mortem vote! Hell, it happens every election in Chicago.

  61. Nick: “although I was never a fan of Teddy, we both know he would have abided your plan for his ghoulish vote”

    Damn right he would have! :-)

    G’night for some good while, guilty pleasure TV time calls.

  62. Svoogle, initially I thought the shooting was wrong, but then I did something stupid and found out the facts. The guy who was shot was a career drug smuggler who fought with the BP agent Compean and got his shotgun away from him. Davila was NOT shot in the back either. He was shot in the rear end after Compean saw him turn towards him with what he thought was a gun. Davila was NOT an illegal just trying to enter the US, but a career criminal who was transporting nearly one million dollars worth of drugs. Even banks which transport legal tender of that amount use armed guards. Thus it is more than reasonable to know that he was most likely armed. After assaulting a BP agent, he becomes an armed felon who is legal to shoot under any law.

    I think that Compean made the mistake of not shooting when Davila refused to stop coming at him. Instead, he tried to use the shotgun as a club to defend himself. If he had done that, then there would have been NO case at all, and he would have avoided your accusation of shooting a poor guy in the back. A shotgun blast to the chest would have been more to your liking I suppose. The fact is that both agents thought that they had missed hitting the crook since he got up and kept on running like nothing had happened and ran across the Rio Grande, got into a car on the Mexican side and drove off. The prosecution was absurd and outrageous with the limits placed on the defense at trial. Davila was granted a border pass with unlimited entrance to the US which he promptly used to bring MORE drugs into the US on a US attorney’s pass. He was arrested once again in El Paso, and the fact of his second arrest was barred from being allowed in court.

    I loved Sen Feinstein of the Judiciary Committee who blasted the Bush administrations US attorney for his incompetence, and bias in misusing the law to get a conviction. That part of their conviction was overturned by a lower court. Bush did a somewhat decent thing in commuting their sentence, when he should have granted them a full pardon.

  63. dAVIDm:

    Lottakatz says: “David: “For seniors, going to the doctor is the social event of the day. For other people, they don’t need the doctor.””

    I cannot speak for all seniors but my mother inlaw certainly used the doctor visits as a social event.

    In fact I am pretty sure some of her doctors bulked up their medicare billings on her visits.

  64. davidm wrote:

    “For seniors, going to the doctor is the social event of the day. For other people, they don’t need the doctor.”

    *****
    Oh, good grief! I’m a senior. I don’t consider going to the doctor the social event of my day. Many older people are vital and keep themselves occupied both physically and mentally. There are also many children and young people who have serious medical issues. I lost a good friend to Ewing’s sarcoma when he was in his mid-thirties. He fought the cancer for six years. The eighteen year old daughter of two other good friends was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor when she was two years old. I had students that I taught in elementary school who had juvenile diabetes, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, cystic fibrosis, ulcerative colitis, brittle bone disease, blood disorders, asthma, etc. Need I go on?

  65. lottakatz wrote: “You have no idea what most peoples lives are like.”

    That’s what most Democrats say about Republicans, and many Republicans says the same thing about Democrats. So here we are, polarized, neither side understanding how the other side can view the world in such a different way.

  66. lottakatz wrote: “Nick, I know that if I was the majority leader of the Senate I would have wheeled Sen. Ted Kennedy’s dead body onto the floor and had someone raise his putrefying hand to vote until I could no longer get away with it.”

    Yikes, you just confirmed every Republicans worst nightmare about how the Democrats will commit voter fraud if they can get away with it.

  67. pdm,

    Hadn’t you heard, didn’t you know, most of congress, senate, the prez, supreme court are aliens from the planet Titan Uranus!!!

    The whole of the damned USA, suicidal prevs taken over for the wallst Banks/Insur scum.

    Everyone one else involved looks like a Bad Guy!

    Oh please Mr, give us some Obamacare. We Promise we’ll Squeal just like a Pig!

    Is there nothing the current Americans wont drop their drawers for & Squeal like a Pig? No evidently

  68. Bron wrote: “I cannot speak for all seniors but my mother inlaw certainly used the doctor visits as a social event. In fact I am pretty sure some of her doctors bulked up their medicare billings on her visits.”

    Bron, do you ever get the feeling that we live on a completely different planet from these people who frequent this blog? Sometimes I wonder if they are just toying with us. A few of them I feel certain are doing that.

    My own mother is a very active senior and does not do the social doctor visit thing, but my mother-in-law sure did for many years before she passed away. Medicare made it all possible to have weekly visits to the doctor so the doctor could tell her everything was great, lose a few pounds, yeah, doing good, keep that weight that you have now, by the way, your hair looks nice today. Say hello to everyone for me. She loved to update us about her doctor visits and would be sure to tell us everything the good doctor said. It was very exciting for her, and if we wanted to do something with her on the day she had her doctor, no way, she would decline because she had her doctor’s appointment that day. It would be difficult to say which was more enjoyable for her, the doctor office visit or the hair salon.

  69. That’s good Oky1, even if I say so myself!

    One of my best, powerful, directly to the issue at hand.

    Hey you Aholes, I’m not writtening this stuff for free, I’ve a bunch of family & friends I care a great deal about………………..!

    Damn, sober up, pay attention!

  70. davidm wrote: “Bron, do you ever get the feeling that we live on a completely different planet from these people who frequent this blog? Sometimes I wonder if they are just toying with us. A few of them I feel certain are doing that.”

    ****

    Too funny! Both you and Bron frequent this blog. You must be living on the same planet as the rest of us.

  71. “But you couldn’t leave it, you had to try and be the smartest person. I was a high school history teacher. Now, drop the childish horseshit, please.”

    When it comes to you Nick she is the smarter person and you can’t stand that can you? The only childish thing around here is you and your need to inflate your ego with scatology. Being a high school history teacher wins you no points when all you do is merely bray your opinions and then get angry when people fairly disagree with them.

    Remember Nick, Professor Turley asked you to be civil and you promised you would be. The sentence above was not civil and you seem again to be breaking your promise. Tsk. Tsk. The angry man who just can’t stand a female opposing him….I wonder why?

  72. “Your views and opinions and truths are so diametrically opposed to objective reality it is simply unbelievable to me that you aren’t operating from a script.”

    LK,

    The more DavidM comments the more I believe it is a script coming from the Tea Party playbook. It is almost like David is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Koch boys. Perhaps a worshipful Courtier as well. Nevertheless, DavidM should be complemented because unlike some others he does try to press his opinions with sources and always maintains a chipper civility, that should count for something.

  73. “For seniors, going to the doctor is the social event of the day. For other people, they don’t need the doctor.”

    DavidM,

    The fact that you aren’t kidding puts emphasis on the fact that the sentence above is just plain silly and ludicrous.

  74. Sometime High School history teacher’s favorite SCOTUS judge is Antonin Scalia, a preference that says all that need to be said about his perspicacity.

  75. Some interesting toy facts:

    The N J gubernatorial election voter turnout was 38% beating the N J record low for a governor’s race which was 47%, set four years ago … both were Christie races.

  76. “David and Bron,
    If you are aware of Medicare fraud, shouldn’t you be reporting it?” (raff)

    Excellent point especially if the doctors are still practicing medicine.

  77. Ok, no help for helpOky1, fine I’ll deal with it.

    I know what WP/Wallst/DC puppets do not like.

    You’ll see it right after this post or not.

  78. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/president-americans-losing-health-care-article-1.1510222

    If you lost your current health-care plan under Obamacare, you have the President’s sympathies.

    President Obama told NBC News that he is “sorry” that he did not keep his repeated promise that anyone who wanted to keep their present insurance plan could do so under the Affordable Care Act.

    “I am sorry that they are finding themselves in this situation based on assurances they got from me,” Obama said in the interview, conducted at the White House.

    RELATED: OBAMA’S AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE ACT DOOMS ME TO DIE: PATIENT

    “We’ve got to work hard to make sure that they know we hear them and we are going to do everything we can to deal with folks who find themselves in a tough position as a consequence of this,” he said.

    People who buy insurance on their own are at risk of being booted from their current policies because their plans don’t meet the standards of the new law.

    LISTEN TO THE INDONESIAN IF YOU ALL WANT…. he’s is a communist and not here to help us one iota…..

  79. This isn’t it, but it’s down range.

    **
    Mike Adams
    Natural News
    November 4, 2013

    The primary tool of socialism is force, and while that force usually begins with good intentions codified into law, it inevitably ends up with the kind of force used by Mao Zedong to murder millions of his own citizens. “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun,” he famously stated, and Obama-supporting democrats are following in his footsteps. **

  80. **helpOky1 1, November 7, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    Looks like WP ate another post
    **

    1 of 2: Ya Wally st doesn’t like this free speech, Re: 4:29,
    **Juliet N. 1, November 7, 2013 at 3:19 pm

    If Republicans (and libertarians) don’t want legislation “rammed” down their throats, they should try winning more elections. Just a thought.
    **

    The Wallst Corporations have most every Democrat/Republican congressmen/senator/prez & statehouses working solely for their interest.

    Maybe we should attempt to organize & hire representatives to represent our interest?

    Of course in order to do that Demo/Repub voters would need to be deprogrammed from their military style brainwashing they currently operating under.

    “The trouble with this current form of socialism is it works great until Wallst/City of London runs out of your money to spend on themselves.”

  81. 5th repost

    The trouble with this current form of socialism is it works great until Wallyyst/City of Londonn runs out of your money to spend on themselves.

  82. raff, Real Clear Politics surveys all major polls. EVERY major poll has people being opposed to Obamacare. They average out 52%-41% opposed. Nice try, though.

  83. Goldman Sachs crook, Corzine drove Dem voters away last election, and this Dem had the base scratching their heads.

  84. Rafflaw/Elaine/Mike:

    I witnessed this phenomenon with my mother in-law. I dont know how wide spread it is. But you have 2 people saying it happens. In fact my wife pointed it out to me and also said her grandmother did the same thing.

    Those are 3 separate individuals who did what you are denying the elderly do. All living beings of a particular species act in certain ways specific to that species. And all human beings have certain behaviors at each stage in life.

    Based on this, I can predict that squirrels in Montana bury nuts for the winter even though I have never seen a Montana squirrel but I have seen Virginia and California and Missouri squirrels do so. Similarly I can also say that some seniors [not all because Elaine and Blouise say they dont] use doctor visits for social outings because I know of at least 3 who did. If there are 3 there are probably others who do the same for the same reason.

    Quite frankly I am at a loss to understand why this simple concept is hard for you to accept/understand. Is it because there can be not criticism of medicare? Or is it because since you dont engage in this behavior it must not happen?

    If I was confronted with 2 separate empirical accounts as to an occurrence in nature, I would probably check it out before I came to any conclusions.

    You can denigrate me and DavidM all you want but that isnt going to change reality. She is a tough master and we are seeing the results of evasion in our country.

    “Man, being the servant and interpreter of Nature, can do and understand so much and so much only as he has observed in fact or in thought of the course of nature. Beyond this he neither knows anything nor can do anything.”

    “Human knowledge and human power meet in one; for where the cause is not known the effect cannot be produced. Nature to be commanded must be obeyed; and that which in contemplation is as the cause is in operation as the rule.”

    Francis Bacon

  85. Oky1:

    I have long thought that the average citizen of the US should get together with his fellows and start a national lobbying firm which looks out for their interests. Get 100 million people paying 5 bucks a month and you are talking about 6 billion dollars/year to influence the political climate in this country.

    If you cant beat Wall St. in the voting booth then beat them on their own terms.

  86. “The primary tool of Fascism is force, and while that force usually begins with good intentions codified into law, it inevitably ends up with the kind of force used by Adolph Hitler to murder millions of his own citizens. “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun,” he famously stated, and Tea Party supporting Conservatives are following in his footsteps.”

    Oky1,

    Quoting someone who is merely name calling leads to revisions like that above.
    Obama is not a Communist, nor is he a socialist, by any definition of those beliefs, except for that of some libertarians. Our political system in this country is in bad enough shape without resorting to hyperbole that is simply not true. I don’t know how old you are Oky1, but I’m 69. If Obama is a socialist then Dwight Eisenhower is a communist, as was Richard Nixon, because both their views were to the left of Obama and I know because I lived through their administrations.

    What is occurring in this country is the redefinition of political systems by ultra rightist Corporatists like the Koch Brothers, who unfortunately have read too much of Ayn Rand. These Corporatists control government to a great degree, but they hate having to expend any energy/money controlling it. They are rich enough not to need any government at all. Hell the don’t even need roads because they can helicopter to and fro. The government of the United States, set up by our founders in the Constitution has been made the enemy, rather then looking at what is really going on. Our government is under the control of those same Corporatists (doesn’t matter which party) and that is the problem, not the government. Barack Obama has not been a good President, but you must agree that a major part of the reason is that he followed the policies of G.W. Bush when it comes to war, spying and torture. Are you calling G.W. Bush a socialist as well?

    We agree on a lot of things Oky1, but this one I can’t let pass because the misuse of words adds to the confusion the Koch Bros., ALEC and their allies are trying to keep us all in. Your enemies aren’t “liberals”, nor are they “conservatives” because those are just labels used to play with your mind. Your enemies and my enemies, are the 1/2 of one percent of the wealthy who are determined to return us to feudalism and make you, me and our children serfs. Using labels, is like Sooner fans hating Longhorn fans because of the long rivalry. True conservatives like Dwight Eisenhower and true liberals like FDR had much to give OUR country, but today their work doesn’t get recognized because we are all being played by labels that are not only meaningless, but are incorrectly used.

    As you alluded the only “socialism” going on in this country is “socialism for the rich, and “capitalism” for the poor. The only people benefiting from this are rich socialists like the Koch Bros., whose daddy made all their money doing work for Joseph Stalin.

  87. Mike S,

    That Star Fighter I was flying last night had a stabilizer break loose & the main frame’s neuronet must have been in the close vicinity of an EMP blast.

    It made for a damn rough landing.

    The mechanics say it’s read for a test flight. We’ll see. LOL :)

  88. 1 of 2

    ** “The primary tool of Fascism is force, and while that force usually begins with good intentions codified into law, it inevitably ends up with the kind of force used by Adolph Hitler to murder millions of his own citizens. “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun,” he famously stated, and Tea Party supporting Conservatives are following in his footsteps.” **

    Couple of small points:

    1. Mao= “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun” , not AH

    2. T Jefferson, Madison, founding dudes only trusted for the most part the weapons/guns to be in the hands of “We the People” & not in the hands of the govt.

    It’s not something new that the Tea Party came up with on it’s own

    We witness how bad & how many rapes & assaults are happening everyday at the hands of govt agents/bureaucracies, ie: TSA/DHS, etc., just imagine how bad it’ll become if the citizens are ever completely disarmed.

    3. The Tea Party is not a monolithic group. It contains many sub groups within it. I support one of those sub groups that follows Jefferson’s & Madison’s “intent” through the “Preamble of the Bill of Rights” & the “Rights” contained there-in

    TJ, Madison, most of the the founding dudes were Liberals of that era.

    4. Political definitions, Commie/Nazi authoritarians

    In this USA, a democracy type govt in the form of a Republic, it’s easy distinguish the correct type political posture that needs to be taken in most cases.

    ** Does the Govt agency, regs, laws grant “We the People” more freedom and liberty or do they take freedom/liberty away from the people.

    In most cases if Govt agency, regs, laws do the later, take away freedom/liberty, then those agencies should be disbanded & the offending regs & laws be made null and void. **

    Does it matter what the political affiliation of a govt agent/bureaucracy is to one of us when we see/read of them raping/assaulting lil kids, young & older adults?

    Yet we as citizens have to remain non-violent even as govt agents/bureaucracy are violently bashing in the brains of our follow citizens.

    **Up to a point*

    Is it any wonder that I don’t fly off the handle more then now at the fact of seeing No Action from local/state/federal govts on these important issues month after month, year after year.

    You, I & most of the others here know full well we could immediately put an end to these govt’s current Military psychology warfare experiments, including the rapes, being carried out against “We the People”.if we were in charge.

    cont

  89. Ratigan now has a policy that actually covers something. At his age, and with his lack of talent, he should be grateful he can even get insurance without a job.

  90. Rafflaw/Elaine/Mike:

    I witnessed this phenomenon with my mother in-law. I dont know how wide spread it is. But you have 2 people saying it happens. In fact my wife pointed it out to me and also said her grandmother did the same thing.

    Those are 3 separate individuals who did what you are denying the elderly do. All living beings of a particular species act in certain ways specific to that species. And all human beings have certain behaviors at each stage in life.

    *****

    What “phenomenon” are you talking about? What did I deny that the elderly do?

  91. ** Be eager and earnest to learn more and more about the art of joyful living, the art of being happy always. People are happy when they dress well, wear rich clothes and strut about the streets. At times, this may cause envy among the little children who cannot afford these, and one may even feel elated with that response! But you can afford to be legitimately proud, only when you are able to control the vagaries of your mind and direct your emotions along honourable and healthy channels, braving even the ridicule of your so-called friends. That is true freedom; that is true success. If you reach that stage, then you become a seasoned driver and you can be trusted with the wheel on any road, and with any cargo, however precious.
    –SSB Nov 1959 **

  92. page 2 of 2

    **What is occurring in this country is the redefinition of political systems by ultra rightist Corporatists like the Koch Brothers, who unfortunately have read too much of Ayn Rand. These Corporatists control government to a great degree, but they hate having to expend any energy/money controlling it. They are rich enough not to need any government at all. Hell the don’t even need roads because they can helicopter to and fro. The government of the United States, set up by our founders in the Constitution has been made the enemy, rather then looking at what is really going on. Our government is under the control of those same Corporatists (doesn’t matter which party) and that is the problem, not the government. Barack Obama has not been a good President, but you must agree that a major part of the reason is that he followed the policies of G.W. Bush when it comes to war, spying and torture. Are you calling G.W. Bush a socialist as well? **

    Yes, we are in complete agreement.

    Also, yes GW Bush is some sort of Commie/Nazi Socialist,… his dad/mom, friends , Clintons, I would like to see all of them in the Dock along with Obama up on charges of treason, war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc.

    **We agree on a lot of things Oky1, but this one I can’t let pass because the misuse of words adds to the confusion the Koch Bros., ALEC and their allies are trying to keep us all in. **

    Again we completely agree. And words have powerfully meaning, and it’s made worst when I miss use them. I never was a big word smith, I’m just attempting to deal within my own limitations.

    *OT, an ole friend at DOJ I used to write to used to try to help me with my word smithing. He also reminded all of us that as people get older they lose their old friends & that we all should constantly attempt to reach out & stay in contact with them even if it’s just for short conversations. A good friend he was indeed. **

    Words Matter: I can be pretty fair at marketing. I’ve been back testing the phrase Commie/Nazi here locally, it phk’in sells! They laugh, I’ve hooked them. They sense a Commie/Nazi is bad/evil yet they laugh. The jingle they can’t get out of their head…

    The next time they hear it they’ll hear it they hear: that ole boy GW Bush, Obama, Clinton, etc…, is a crazy ahole & he’s evil.

    I’m not sure what the complete fix to all these issues are, but I & others are positive that that one of the keys is regaining control over what we use as currency and stopping Wallst’s selling fraudulent securities based on assets they do not own and nor can they deliver when called upon to do so.

    When “Informed/knowledgeable” people have personal control over their money/assets they tend use those resources to best meet their personal needs.

    If people will continue to use every non-violent means at their disposal those many messes could go away very soon.

    (I’d hoped to put a better end to this, but the evening got away from me. Mike, I may fall over any day, I don’t know when, but I don’t give up the chase to fix this mess.)

  93. Oky1: I’m not sure what your point is, but you’re indulging in a false premise — as most “capitalists” do . Unfortunately, hard work doesn’t very often lead to wealth. But perhaps the ACA will sick people get medical care so they can be useful citizens, again.

  94. Elaine:

    “I cannot speak for all seniors but my mother inlaw certainly used the doctor visits as a social event. In fact I am pretty sure some of her doctors bulked up their medicare billings on her visits.”

    A response to DavidM on his mother inlaw and doctor visits.

    You disagreed.

    That is what I was talking about in that post to you, Mike S and rafflaw.

  95. Bron,

    You need to read my responses to davidm more carefully:

    Elaine M.
    1, November 7, 2013 at 8:20 pm
    davidm wrote:

    “For seniors, going to the doctor is the social event of the day. For other people, they don’t need the doctor.”

    *****
    Oh, good grief! I’m a senior. I don’t consider going to the doctor the social event of my day. Many older people are vital and keep themselves occupied both physically and mentally. There are also many children and young people who have serious medical issues. I lost a good friend to Ewing’s sarcoma when he was in his mid-thirties. He fought the cancer for six years. The eighteen year old daughter of two other good friends was diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor when she was two years old. I had students that I taught in elementary school who had juvenile diabetes, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, cystic fibrosis, ulcerative colitis, brittle bone disease, blood disorders, asthma, etc. Need I go on?

    *********************

    Elaine M.
    1, November 7, 2013 at 11:24 pm
    davidm wrote: “Bron, do you ever get the feeling that we live on a completely different planet from these people who frequent this blog? Sometimes I wonder if they are just toying with us. A few of them I feel certain are doing that.”

    ****

    Too funny! Both you and Bron frequent this blog. You must be living on the same planet as the rest of us.

  96. Bron,

    Not all elderly people are the same–just as not all young and middle-aged people are the same. We don’t all become uniform in our thinking processes as we age. My elderly mother–who is now ninety-five–has never considered her visits to the doctor as social events. I have accompanied her on many of those visits. She usually groused about having to see her doctors.

  97. Elaine:

    I never said they were. All I am saying is that some seniors use medical visits as a social outing.

    My mother inlaw did, your mother doesnt. DavidM’s mother inlaw did, my wife’s grandmother did.

    Just because your mother doesnt, doesnt mean other seniors dont and just because my mother inlaw did, doesnt mean all seniors do.

    You and Blouise thought DavidM was preposterous for positing geriatric proclivity for medical social visits.

  98. “I may fall over any day, I don’t know when, but I don’t give up the chase to fix this mess”

    Oky1,

    Let’s both hang in there and maybe we’ll accomplish something.

Comments are closed.