Remarkable People: My Cousin Jimmy Gates and the Flower Bed, Seventy-Two Years Ago Today.

Contributed by Charlton Stanley (aka Otteray Scribe), Guest Blogger

Hickham Field Pearl Harbor 7 December 1941
Hickam Field
Pearl Harbor
7 December 1941

I remember where I was and what I was doing shortly after one o’clock in the afternoon on December 7, 1941. My dad called me in to where he and a couple of his friends were sitting by the huge Stromberg Carlson 350R console radio, its front doors swung open. They were leaning forward, hanging onto every word coming out of the polished walnut cabinet. The breathless announcer was talking so fast he sometimes stumbled over his words. The usual calm and soothing baritone of a professional radio news reporter was replaced by an almost panicked staccato, an octave higher than his voice would have sounded normally. One phrase has stayed stuck in my mind’s ear all these years, “They stabbed our boys in the back!”

At first I thought they were talking about Japanese soldiers bayoneting our soldiers and sailors in the back, as I had seen them do in the newsreels of the massacre of Nanking. Even as a kid, I knew war was on the horizon. Six weeks earlier, a Nazi U-boat had sunk the destroyer USS Reuben James as it escorted a convoy of cargo ships carrying food and supplies to England.

Everyone thought that when war did come, it would come from Europe. No one but a few farsighted tacticians like General Billy Mitchell were looking west, and even predicting that an attack would come by air. Mitchell was Court Martialed for his outspoken military and political heresy. When Americans were killed in what was to be the first military engagement of WW-2 with the sinking of the Reuben James, President Roosevelt held back committing troops and sailors to combat despite the provocation. Hitler was counting on that kind of restraint, or he would not have been so bold as to sink an American warship. He knew the US was not prepared to fight a war, since American troop levels had been drawn down to very low numbers, and much of the equipment was either obsolete or obsolescent. The country was recovering from the Great Depression, and needed time to re-arm.

Admiral Yamamoto took Roosevelt’s options away from him that Sunday morning. Hitler was said to be furious with his Japanese allies.

Which brings us to the story my cousin Jimmy.

Jimmy Gates was from Cleveland, Mississippi. He grew up hunting squirrels and other game to help put food on the family table during the Depression. He was a crack shot. After he got out of high school, the economy was still reeling from the Great Depression, and opportunities were few in the Mississippi delta cotton fields. Seeing the peacetime military as a way to escape the hot farm fields, He joined the Army Air Corps as a Private.  He liked airplanes, and figured it would be a lot better branch of the service for him than being an infantryman. For Jimmy, flying beat walking any day. The Air Corps liked Jimmy too. He was a superb marksman, and had unusually good eyesight, traits which seem to run in our family (when I was his age, my eyesight was 20/13). They made Jimmy a bombardier and nose gunner in a B-17 bomber. It was a good choice, because his ability to put bombs on target was uncanny, at a time when the average bomb fell a quarter mile off the intended target.

Burning Depot and Barracks Hickam Field 7 December 1941
Burning Depot and Barracks
Hickam Field
7 December 1941

Jimmy was playing pool in the Day Room that Sunday morning. He heard airplanes flying at combat power settings and bullets hitting things outside. He ran to the window and saw planes with the “red meatball” markings wheeling overhead and diving on Hickham Field. He dove out the open window, because he knew buildings would be a target. After all, he was trained as a bombardier, and knew exactly what bomb aimers would be targeting. He tumbled out the window into the flower bed and took off running. He had only gotten a few steps when a bomb came through the roof , exploding in the room he had just vacated. The blast knocked him down, but he wanted to get as far from the buildings and flight line as he could. Those would be the targets, and he was in no mood to be a target that day. He was a 24 year old Sergeant at the time, and wanted to have a 25th birthday. He knew his next birthday might be his last, if he did manage to live that long.

He got a chance to fight back soon enough. As the runways and ruined hangars were repaired, new B-17 bombers were arriving from the mainland US. After a few more weeks of training, Jimmy Gates went to war. He had lost good friends that December morning. It was payback time.

When his eye was not glued to the eyepiece of his top-secret Norden bombsight, he was handling the machine guns in the nose, looking for enemy aircraft.

He sank several Japanese warships, one of them by putting a bomb down the smokestack. Apparently one of his crew-mates had bet him he couldn’t do it. It was most unusual for a bombardier shoot down a fighter plane. I know he was given full credit for shooting down at least one Zero fighter. He told of one mission where the crew voted on whether to bail out or stay with the crippled plane. He elected to stay. When he jumped down from the plane, shredded ribbons of his parachute started falling out a hole in the chute pack. There was a piece of antiaircraft shell the size of his hand in the middle of what was left of his parachute.

The August 7, 1942 New York Times reported that Air Corps Sergeant James F. Gates of Cleveland, Mississippi was awarded the Silver Star for gallantry in the Solomon Islands area. It would not be his last medal, or his last Silver Star. Jimmy wore very little flash on his uniform. He was as different from soldiers like General David Petraeus as night is to day. After it was created in 1958, he was awarded the Air Force Commendation Medal.

Jimmy survived WW-2, but stayed in the Air Force. Because of his outstanding skill, bravery and intelligence, he was sent to officers candidate school, and was now an officer. When B-29s arrived on the scene in the Pacific, he was assigned to a B-29 squadron. He flew right up until the end of the war, including some of the last raids on Japan. In the early 1950s he came to visit at our house. I had about a million questions, but some he would not, or could not, answer. I asked him if he had been one of the crews selected to train for the atomic bomb. He changed the subject. I remember him suddenly wanting to talk about the outstanding performance of the P-38 in dives and climbs, compared to the Zero. I found out later he had been assigned to the 509th Composite Group, and my suspicions had been true.

Jimmy went on to fly during the Korean war.  He was one of those aviators for whom flying was a way of life, so he stayed in the service. At various times he was assigned to B-47 and then B-52 bombers when his squadron got them. He was a three war veteran, staying on through the Vietnam war.

Photo by Mike Kinsley Find A Grave contributor
Photo by Mike Kinsley
Find A Grave contributor

Jimmy retired from the Air Force with the rank of Major. He eventually became the victim of Alzheimer’s Disease, living his last years in a nursing facility in Springfield, MO. He is buried in the Missouri Veterans Cemetery at Springfield.

I prefer to remember the young man who took his brother Billy and me to the Saturday afternoon matinee, and who loved to go squirrel hunting. He made a joke of diving out that open window into the flower bed that sunny Sunday morning, but I know now something I didn’t realize then. There was a hell of a lot of pain in those memories. Seventy-two years ago this morning.

100 thoughts on “Remarkable People: My Cousin Jimmy Gates and the Flower Bed, Seventy-Two Years Ago Today.

  1. ** He eventually became the victim of Alzheimer’s Disease, living his last years in a nursing facility in Springfield, MO. He is buried in the Missouri Veterans Cemetery at Springfield. **

    OS,

    Some may think it odd but my wife & I have made a hobby of tracking down relatives that have passed, going to the towns in which they lived & finding their tombstone if possible.

    We’ve been by that Veterans Cemetery many times & will again maybe in the spring or fall next years.

    Thanks for sharing that story.

  2. Pearl Harbor Day,

    509th Composite Group:

    I had been so busy I’d forgot the day Dec 7 until OS’s piece jogged my memory.

    Here we all stand again today on the Literal brink of War, WW3! And Why?

    One hundred years ago this month Dec. 24, 1913 British Red Coat Banks & Royalty trash, others, conspired with US Wallst banking trash & pushed through the Federal Reserve Act.

    President at the time Wilson signed it into law & despite his assurances otherwise he entered US troops & the nation into WW1 on the Red Coats side.

    What would the world look like today if there was no Federal Reserve System that enabled the last 100 years of wars like WW1?

    Would there have been a WW2 Hitler & his Nazis & their Jap/Italian Fascist friends?

    We’ll never know that answer now.

    But what we are absolutely positive about the 509th Composite Group is that it wouldn’t have existed without Albert Einstein.

    I don’t recall all he is credited with, But on This Day, Dec 7, his prophecy to the world should be on everyone’s mind.

    Paraphrasing, he wasn’t sure how WW3 would be fought, but he was positive WW4 would be fought with sticks & stones.

    So before we jump off the cliff into Dante’s Inferno, what I believe Al was trying to tell us was we had better devise a better strategy for managing our governments policies, economic activities & product works of the world’s people then blowing the hell out of the planet though more needless/senseless government conceived wars against humanity.

  3. **He made a joke of diving out that open window into the flower bed that sunny Sunday morning, but I know now something I didn’t realize then. There was a hell of a lot of pain in those memories. Seventy-two years ago this morning. **

    OS, I too have seen that look in far to many boys eyes, that’s why I wrote that comment.

  4. Say what one will about the Japanese attack on U.S. naval and army facilities at Peal Harbor on December 7, 1941, but at least they waited until the dawn. The U.S. now regularly starts wars against countries that never attacked America by “stealth” bombers and robot drones operating like ninja assassins in the dark of night. Talk about “stabbing in the back.”

    While serving an eighteen month tour in Vietnam from July 1970 through January 1972, I would occasionally pass a dilapidated little plot of ground just outside Tan Son Nhut airport in Saigon. Rank weeds choked the ground and many tombstones had fallen over or seemed just about to do so. At the edge of this sad little cemetery, a faded sign with barely legible Vietnamese and English writing proclaimed: “The Vietnamese people will never forget the sacrifices of the brave French legionnaires.”

    Just a thoughts about the irony of history.

  5. Unfortunately, those incredible people would all likely be surprised to see the country now.

    Perhaps we should change that if we can.

    General Eisenhower gave one formula:

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone.

    It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

    This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.

    (She’s Come Undone).

  6. Another conservative source (Wall Street Journal), explains what would surprise, in a bad way, those incredible people OS speaks of in his moving post:

    Since the 1960s, in response to a range of perceived threats, law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier. Driven by martial rhetoric and the availability of military-style equipment—from bayonets and M-16 rifles to armored personnel carriers—American police forces have often adopted a mind-set previously reserved for the battlefield. The war on drugs and, more recently, post-9/11 antiterrorism efforts have created a new figure on the U.S. scene: the warrior cop—armed to the teeth, ready to deal harshly with targeted wrongdoers, and a growing threat to familiar American liberties.

    (comment made on the Mike S post today).

    Michael Murry gives a perspective on history in his comment up-thread:

    “The Vietnamese people will never forget the sacrifices of the brave French legionnaires.”

    History is something one of the greater generals (Napoleon) had an interesting perspective about:

    Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

    History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.

    Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.

    One General’s opinion.

  7. O.S.
    Once again, with the impeccable focus on the greatness of his purpose, you have brought Major Jimmy Gates to life for us.

    Thank you for that wonderful gift……Darrel

  8. While I was not born until at the end of WWII, I was fully aware of it since it was very recent history for all of my family when I was growing up. In fact, I can still remember the roles all of my friends dad’s played in WWII, their branch of service and where they fought. Even later I knew of the service of all the men of that era when I met them. I recall where my mother and dad were when they found out about Pearl Harbor and their shock. My grandfather even tried to get back into the service as a WWI veteran, but was too old, so he signed up as a Civil Defense Warden and my grandmother was a Red Cross driver.

    My father had just gotten married to my mother, and as a grad of MIT in electrical engineering, signed up for the US Navy. He served as an instructor at the Naval Mine Warfare School for most of the war. I tell my brother that Col. Tibbetts, and your cousin, and Robert Oppenheimer are the reason he is alive since Dad was going to go to Japan for the invasion as a minesweeper captain. That was rather high risk duty since minesweepers are the first boats in the van and their job is to clear mines from the approaches to the beaches. So they get to sail up and down the coast within range of shore guns in small boats clearing mines. They do not stand up well to .50 cal rounds or any other large caliber ones. If one gets a bit careless in sweeping mines the damn things have a bad tendency to blow up, and even steel does not fare well with that kind of thing. So I wish to add my family’s personal thanks to your cousin.

    He must have been one hell of good bombardier since I do not recall many ships being sunk by a B-17. I would be interested in knowing which ship and where he got that one. At Midway, the USAAF claimed many Japanese ships when in fact they missed all of them and it was the Navy which did all the damage.

    As for irony in Vietnam, the British gave the natives a lesson in treachery and stabbing in the back that would have made Hitler and Tojo proud. When the Japanese surrendered, the anti-colonial Vietnamese who were our allies and supported our troops took control of Vietnam. The Brits landed and decided that the wogs could not be allowed to run their own country. They re-armed the Japanese, let the imprisoned French Vichy colonialists out of the prison where the Vietnamese had put them. Then proceeded to jail and shoot our immediate allies. The French colonialists then went on a rampage of murder and looting in retaliation for their imprisonment under the watchful eyes of the Brits and re-armed Japanese who were under British orders.

    Not to be outdone, the Nationalist Chinese forces took the Japanese surrender in the north part of Vietnam. They did the only thing that Chang’s troops were ever any good at which was murder, raping, and looting the locals. Ho Chi Minh and the Vietminh had a hard time keeping the Vietnamese peaceful against these atrocities. They advised them to leave the Chinese alone and let the Nationalists go home since they had a more pressing fight against the Red Chinese Army and would not stay long.

    As to the French Foreign Legionaires, it is doubly ironic since they were mainly ex-SS troops after the war. So they hired on to reprise their exploits against oppressed people which is the only thing that they were good at. They got their a@@es kicked in the Battle of the Bulge by the 101st Airborne and cooks, clerks, mechanics and rear echelon troops with no air support. Those support troops are the kind Rumsfeld and his ilk had no use for since they were not combat units. I remember seeing photos of graves of Vietnamese colonial troops with the inscription that they died for France. That has to be one of the most dishonorable things for a Vietnamese to have on ones grave and they deserve the contempt and neglect that they richly deserve.

  9. LET NO ONE FORGET, TODAY IS PEARL HARBOR DAY:

    Remember those that were lost on this day at Pearl Harbor and the follow years to defend your nation and our Democracy. No words can be said of the bravery and courage of our Men and Women of that era. Everyone fought and gave to their ultimate. A lot and probably most have left us and we mourn their passage and pray that we can have the courage to continue their bravery to keep this nation free. Anyone that had the honor to know these men and women know that few spoke or said very little of those times and what they had to endure. We can now see that actions and deeds spoke louder than words could ever of what they accomplished. I only pray that I and all of us can only measure up in a small way to honor them. May God bless them, us and our Nation today and in the Future.

    Red Worthington

  10. The government is preventing a U.S. citizen from boarding a passenger plane to get to her trial where she is suing the government for harrasment (Papers, Please!).

    She is a doctor.

    That must cast a shadow on Pearl Harbor Day … assuming it has anything to do with constitutional rights that is.

  11. Randy,
    Jim was given sole credit for five Japanese warships and one Zero. There were more which were not independently confirmed.

    If whoever it was that bet he could not put a bomb down the ship’s smokestack had ever gone squirrel hunting with him and his .22 rifle, that bet would never have been made.

  12. That’s a great story, Chuck. A lot of guys attached to the 509th didn’t like to talk about it. I wonder if he and my grandfather knew each other? I wish could ask him. Pearl Harbor Day was always a rough day for my grandfather. It’s sometimes hard to look at the political landscape and shape our nation has taken and to think about what that generation was fighting for, but it is never as hard as what they lived through. They are never gone as long as they live in our memories nor is their nobility and courage forgotten.

  13. Oky1
    If you make it by the Springfield National Cemetery again, he is in Sec G, Row 17, # 0921.

    Get some photos, please. As many as you can. I will let you know how to get them to me. Jim was one of my favorite people, and loved to talk about flying. Or to put it another way, aviators don’t exactly talk as much as they use their hands to make imaginary airplanes.

  14. OS I have to assume that he got those ships while docked or moored. If he nailed them under way, that is even greater and damn near impossible. Even hitting a ship that is dead in the water is a real feat. My salute and gratitude to him and his crew.

    I got to know a real hero, Dan Illerich, who was featured in the book, The Airmen and the Headhunters. Dan and I were flight instructors at Aero Academy at HOU, and he is a great guy and he told me about his exploits when he took vacation to go back to his Aussie comrades in arms when we were working at the flight school. I would recommend that book to all and they made a TV movie about it too. Dan also stayed in the Air Force and retired as a Lt. Col. He later became a flight instructor and Designated Examiner at HOU.

  15. Gene, if your grandfather was with the 509th Composite Group at North Field, Tinian, the chances they knew each other–either well or casually–is about 98%. That was a rather exclusive club. Some crew members are not listed on the web site I linked to. Not sure why, but suspect a combination of nobody looking for them hard enough and those files being classified until years after the war. Most crews had backup members as well, in case somebody got sick or wounded. Officially the 509th CBG had 15 B-29 bombers and five C-54 transport aircraft. The whole unit only had 1,764 officers and enlisted personnel.

    At the time, the first half 1945, North Field on Tinian was the largest and busiest airport in the world. It had four parallel runways to handle all the traffic. Additionally, the south airfield on Saipan was also busy; so close it was a job to keep the traffic at the two airports separated. You can see Saipan from the north end of Tinian island. If you look on Google Earth, you can see North Field is being overtaken by the jungle. The south field on Saipan is now the main commercial airport, well kept and modern. Same for the south field on Tinian.

    Sometime I am going to have to tell the story of the guy who made my first flying lesson possible. He flew a B-29 out of Saipan, had six DFCs and five Air Medals, plus a Caterpillar Club pin. Talking to him, you would never have guessed his history, but a few years after the war, he went to medical school and became a beloved doctor, practicing until late in life. He died at the age of 91. I have to wonder if those thirty-five bombing missions, including the horrific one of 27 January 1945, influenced his desire to become a healer.

  16. OS,

    I’ll be glad to stop by next time we go.

    I’ve saved the Sec/Row number in a file.

    With these modern cameras we can shoot a bunch of pitches & send them easy.

    All I’ll need to know is what you want pictures of. IE: Front gate to the cemetery, historical markers, etc.

    As I recall there’s a large Federal Penitentiary & a major Federal Psych Hospital very close by.

    (Maybe my wife can drop me off there at the psych ward for an afternoon of electro shock therapy? ) :)

    We’re trying gather up more info for a rode trip back to West Virgina & by Gettysburg to see with my own eyes what the terrain looks like.

  17. Beautifully done, OS, and look at all the remembrances you and Cousin Jimmy sparked on this thread. It’s a flower bed of memories and tributes.

  18. Oky1 1, December 7, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    “Say what they wish about Jones’ crew …”
    ===================================
    I don’t like the ancient, yet modern, concept of shooting the messenger, so I do not reject any source of information because they are disfavored by Epigovernment.

    If what they say sounds out of the bounds of official dogma, convention, and the like, that does not turn off my ears.

    Especially when anything those edgers say that challenges the smells of war worship:

    “It is forbidden to kill therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” -Voltaire

    Fukushima is one of the altars of the warmonger religion, as are Pearl Harbor and Ground Zero.

    But by the same token, if the warmongers make a good case they have my attention.

    Some of the allegations of Jones and crew would survive a motion to dismiss from my mind, and some would not.

    But we all must thereafter present evidence and carry the relevant and appropriate burden of proof for that particular case.

  19. “n Day of Deceit, Robert Stinnett delivers the definitive final chapter on America’s greatest secret and our worst military disaster. Drawing on twenty years of research and access to scores of previously classified documents, Stinnett proves that Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. By showing that ample warning of the attack was on FDR’s desk and, furthermore, that a plan to push Japan into war was initiated at the highest levels of the U.S. government.”

    And GWBoosh Cheney were both surprised on 9/11. Not.

  20. **I don’t like the ancient, yet modern, concept of shooting the messenger,**

    Dredd,

    It’d be nice to have the more important info in Cliff Note form & Crowd Sourced Action Plans to attempt to correct the flaws.

    This current Gatekeeper model of leadership is blocking us all from what has to happen eventually anyway.

    After a time of slow deliberation it’s time to implement means to meet the objectives.

  21. bill mcwilliams, Thanks for posting. Whether the events of Pearl Harbor 70 years ago was a disaster or not depends on how much you wanted it to happen. FDR wanted it to happen and did what he could to make it happen. He did not consider it a disaster.

  22. FDR DID consider it a disaster if you would read some real history. I refer you to Murrow’s account of his interview with FDR immediately after the attack. He was outraged, stunned, and frustrated. FDR told Murrow the full extent of the disaster which he considered off the record though FDR did not stipulate that and he kept the secrets.

    Those who think that FDR knew before hand of the attack have no logic, knowledge of the facts, and in most cases hate FDR. They basically accuse FDR of treason as President in wartime. They also forget the treason of many of the US military who hated FDR. Case in point is the FACT that opponents of FDR in the Pentagon disclosed US War Plans that were top secret. The only reason The Chicago Tribune was not prosecuted for publishing those plans was that is was done on Dec.6th and FDR had bigger problems. The agreement that Churchill and FDR reached when they declared the Atlantic Charter stipulated a GERMANY first priority if the US got into the war. The US had not come close to re-arming and the extension of the first peacetime draft only passed Congress by ONE VOTE, and that was only preserved by Sam Rayburn closing voting early so that the Reps could not change their votes.

    Then one has to ignore the FACT that FDR loved the US Navy and every ship in it. It is absurd to think that he would sacrifice any ships, much less our battleships to let the Japanese start the war. The same thing could have been done by letting the Japanese attack and laying a trap for them. That would have served just as well without the horrendous losses we suffered. Then such critics forget that we only declared war on JAPAN, NOT GERMANY. So the US was NOT at war with Germany at all as a result of the attack, and the Tripartite Pact with Japan did NOT require Germany to go to war with the US since Japan struck first. Indeed FDR had a BIG problem in that US sentiment wanted to get the Japs first, and we had US forces which were being overrun in the Pacific and NOT in Europe. FDR had a fight on his hands in giving military aid to Britain even after Pearl Harbor since it meant less aid for US forces in the Pacific. There is NO logical military or political reason for the disaster at Pearl Harbor other than the gross incompetence of the US military leaders there. The GOP in the last session under W Bush passed a resolution absolving Adm Kimmel for his role in the disaster, thus trying to revise history by partisan political votes. So I have to view such crap as the conspiracy theories as nothing more than political BS.

  23. i guess if have changed just a bit from that earlier time. now days when we do this to another country we’re told it’s just a limited air strike with no boots on the ground.

  24. My stone is red for the blood they shed
    The Medal I bear is my country’s way of showing they care
    If I could be seen by all mankind maybe peace will come in my lifetime.

    From the face of the dedication stone at the Veterans Cemetery in Springfield, MO.

    I was there this past September, I thank you for this story.

  25. Randyjet, After observing events such as the inside conspiracy to assassinate JFK, Pearl Harbor 9/11 etc. for many years, I’ve moved from mere belief to actual knowledge. You apparently have exposed yourself to only one view of the evidence – that which MSM propagates.

    The more one knows, the less certain they are about what they’ve been led to believe is the truth. The PTB aren’t concerned with what you believe – their concern is about what you know.

  26. “Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled “conspiracy theorists” appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events.
    The most recent study was published on July 8th by psychologists Michael J. Wood and Karen M. Douglas of the University of Kent (UK). Entitled “What about Building 7? A social psychological study of online discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories,” the study compared “conspiracist” (pro-conspiracy theory) and “conventionalist” (anti-conspiracy) comments at news websites.
    The authors were surprised to discover that it is now more conventional to leave so-called conspiracist comments than conventionalist ones: “Of the 2174 comments collected, 1459 were coded as conspiracist and 715 as conventionalist.” In other words, among people who comment on news articles, those who disbelieve government accounts of such events as 9/11 and the JFK assassination outnumber believers by more than two to one. That means it is the pro-conspiracy commenters who are expressing what is now the conventional wisdom, while the anti-conspiracy commenters are becoming a small, beleaguered minority.
    Perhaps because their supposedly mainstream views no longer represent the majority, the anti-conspiracy commenters often displayed anger and hostility: “The research… showed that people who favoured the official account of 9/11 were generally more hostile when trying to persuade their rivals.”
    Additionally, it turned out that the anti-conspiracy people were not only hostile, but fanatically attached to their own conspiracy theories as well. According to them, their own theory of 9/11 – a conspiracy theory holding that 19 Arabs, none of whom could fly planes with any proficiency, pulled off the crime of the century under the direction of a guy on dialysis in a cave in Afghanistan – was indisputably true. The so-called conspiracists, on the other hand, did not pretend to have a theory that completely explained the events of 9/11: “For people who think 9/11 was a government conspiracy, the focus is not on promoting a specific rival theory, but in trying to debunk the official account.”

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/07/14/whatabout7/

  27. I see that you offer nothing but psychologists, social scientists, etc for your support, NOT FACTS. That alone tells me you are full of BS. I really liked the 9/11 conspiracy nut who is a theologian as his area of expertise! Of course the engineers and scientists aviation experts mean nothing! So forgive me if I cannot take you seriously since you offer no facts, and the ones you DO offer are simply lies. I guess you missed the killing of Bin Laden in his mansion in Pakistan and he was NOT on dialysis.

    You and your fellows are funny in a sad way I suppose. It reminds me of how gullible people can be. Once again, you state you have KNOWLEDGE of the facts, yet offer NONE! The other problem is that what you allege makes NO sense at all and relies on either your ignorance or the ignorance of others to sell this stuff. You also fail to ask simple questions and follow a logical train of thought as to what else MUST happen in order for your hypothesis to work or make sense. So there is a good reason the mainstream view is correct because it is TRUE. Yours on the other hand postulates that YOU are the exalted being who has the true knowledge and the rest of us are sheep. Sorry, but I don’t think you have any qualifications or mental capacity to set yourself up as the superior being you think you are.

  28. Randy,
    Don’t worry about it. I have read the actual studies from the University of Kent, not the versions filtered through CT blogs and web sites. Billy Mac is misinterpreting facts again, so no surprise there.

    What does bother me is the fact he picks this story, and this day, to come and take a dump on Jim’s buddies who never made it out of the flower bed that day. http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt256/otteraylens/Military%20and%20war/HickhamFieldcasualties12-7-1941_zps90254376.jpg?t=1386428081

  29. when i was in in HS ROTC Chief Master Sargent Jarrell would tell of his experience at pearl harbor on dec 7. he said he spent the first part of the attack on the roof of his barracks, running from one parapet to the other trying to keep away from an aircraft that was trying to strafe them while trying to shoot the plane down with 03 springfields.

    only story i ever heard him tell about ww2 in the three years i was at school there.

  30. **Otteray Scribe 1, December 7, 2013 at 8:45 pm **

    OS,

    I always wish to treat delicate subjects with respect. I knew I should attempt to show a special respect today. I believe did on;

    **Oky1 1, December 7, 2013 at 3:58 am **

    I’m only what I am & often have to reach to be better then I have available.

    As I’ve mentioned before my family has many vets that served & received honorable discharges.

    Why back, ie: Virginia Continental Line.

    Heroic actions or just following orders they did what their commanders & our govt ask them to do.

    One of my Great Grand Dads rode with William Tecumseh Sherman & his march though the South. Yes, he was Honorable Discharged.

    I mostly understand what that outfit did & just how ugly it really was.

    (Pride or Shame?)

    I understand what Gen. Custer did & if up to me I’d disband 7 Calvary forever in Disgrace.

    Yet I know even of the actual history I’m sad that it had to come to that, but that is War!

    Chivalry & War are almost impossible to mix.

    That’s that familiar look in boys eyes many of us know.

    Knowing as I do is the reason I promote the view of a Native American Peace Chief & non-violent solutions first.

    I honor what vets were/are called to do, but even more so will hold leadership responsible for their actions of putting those vets/soldiers in those positions in the first place.

    My wifes Grand Dad, wounded in action in Italy by German Nazis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45th_Infantry_Division_%28United_States%29

    I wish I could remember the name of the book, it had a red cover & was written by a guy from that outfit.

    In it he detailed what a total Fubar it was there & the senseless slaughter on both sides. Most every War is, a senseless slaughter.

    When I was a kid I guess like many kids became sucked into the govt propaganda of glamorizing War.

    No more, there are heroic acts of men who serve honorable in War, but there is nothing glamorizing about it or the Wallst Banking/Insurance trash that caused most of it.

    Wallst/polecats know those soldiers/family histories better then any of us & that’s why today they are working at a fevered pitch to disarm everyone & destroy our 2nd Amd.

    They know there’s something in us Americans that is Beyond Fear!

    I respectfully submit.

  31. Pete, my Uncle Bob was in the Canal Zone on Dec 7,1941 manning a machine gun on the beach. HIS commander took the war warnings he got,the same ones Kimmel and Short got, seriously and made his position ready. He never did tell me any of the tough parts since he was a grunt in Europe who fought his way into Germany

    It must be said that the US military leadership did think the Zone might be hit in a Japanese strike or the Philipines. There were very few who thought the main base at Pearl Harbor would be the target and the majority opinion was that the Japanese would attack Indonesia and Borneo since that is where the oil was.

    Adm Yamamoto knew most of the US Navy leaders and had zero respect for them. He said that they were only great country club military men. Unfortunately he was right, but he never met the real leaders who came to the fore such as Nimitz, Fletcher, Spruance, and others who did a great job. King, Leahy, and Halsey were the ones he did know and was not impressed. Which is probably why he figured the attack would succeed.

  32. Randyjet,

    No disrespect meant, but if you wish to teach military history please by all means tell us the names & history of the Banking.Insurance Scum & other War profiteers & their actions in financing all these wars the past 3-400 years.

    If you perjured yourself in public ever you’d have almost no creditability in court, yet many in govt have done so on a consistent basis over just the last 200 years.

    I do not believe most any govt official story or the Dec 7 story without more proof.

    I can still honor vets yet still ask the questions that need asked.

  33. I’m sure many of you have noticed all the Nazis in the USA that have recently uncloaked themselves to all of us.

    Well as you can see with your own eyes Thomas Jefferson is advising everyone to send them packing or straight to hell.

    Violence is absolutely not needed at this moment when this current violent revolt against us & our USA by those Nazi bankers, all that’s called for at this moment is your strong resistance to it & the force of your daily commerce/financial commitments towards your families & the nation.

    **”No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government” — Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 **

    http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/strongest-reason-people-to-retain-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms-quotation

  34. randyjet,

    I’d triple down the bet that you’re a decent person as are most of the guys/gals that hangout here on JT’s Blog.

    We all care a great deal about our families, friends, our nation & the planet.

    All any of us have to do is everyday be a decent person & if we screw up just attempt to be better tomorrow.

    ( and if you’re into heavy metal bass turn Rammstein wide open LOL Ph those eardrums )

    Gnite.

  35. OS,
    It is amazing that people seem to confuse the war with the men fighting that war. I have heard that nonsense about FDR “knowing” that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor all my life. No one has yet provided any substantive evidence of that scurrilous claim.

  36. raff The people who put forward the idea that FDR wanted the Japanese to attack us and knew of the attack are basically ignorant and/or stupid. They either don’t know or care that the US only declared war against Japan on Dec 8,1941. They also forget that we only declared war on Germany after Hitler had declared war against US, and he was under NO obligation to join Japan in war against the US. Hitler also knew, thanks to the treason of conservatives at the Chicago Tribune and the Pentagon, that FDR and Churchill had decided on a Germany first strategy if the US went to war. Had Hitler not declared war, FDR could not have declared war on Germany. Even after the US was at war with Germany, FDR was facing strong opposition to sending military aid and troops to Europe since the conservatives only wanted to get Japan. Thanks to Hitler, he solved FDRs problem to some extent. The US could have remained at peace with Germany as the Soviet Union remained at peace with Japan for most of the war. The folks who believe the conspiracy crap have NO answer for these facts.

  37. The Japanese code had been deciphered so there were no surprises. The valuable ships, the aircraft carriers, were all at sea, well out of range. Only “old iron”, the 22-27 year old battleships were actually in port. An amazing coincidence?

  38. Thanks and excellent article… War is hell I’ve heard….

    As to Germans sinking merchant marine ships…. They were guarded by the US Navy…..Well, they usually were carrying multiple types of cargo…. And yes, we were building up the strength and war efforts of other country’s….. Including build up in Africa…..

    As far a being prepared for war…. The us had turned numerous auto plants into warri diction efforts about three years before we actually got involved…. Such plants as willow run…. The tank plant in macomb county….chryslers…

  39. Hanlon’s razor — A corollary of Finagle’s law, and a play on Occam’s razor, normally taking the form, “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” As with Finagle, possibly not strictly eponymous. Alternately, “Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence

    R A Heinlein

  40. When he worked in the WH, Cass Sunstein proposed a CONSPIRACY of his own: that intelligence operatives should infiltrate Web forums where state-sponsored conspiracies are discussed and disrupt them via disinformation, insults etc.

    Some of the customers here act like THEY’RE volunteers in that conspiracy.

  41. betty You are simply wrong about the Japanese codes. They had NOT been broken and the only one the US could read consistently was purple, the diplomatic codes. Even after we went to war, the codes were being changed, and the US had a lot of work to do to keep abreast of these changes. You obviously have NO knowledge of this subject and I suggest you learn more by reading about the subject. As for the so called valuable ships, you take what was learned LATER in the war and apply it to US Naval doctrine at the time of the attack. The FACT is that the battleships at the time were regarded as THE main prize, NOT the carriers. Once again,your ignorance is showing.

    The ONLY thing Kimmel knew for sure from radio intercept tracking where the transmissions were coming from was that his intel officers had LOST the location of a good part of the Japanese fleet. They told him they ASSUMED that they were headed south. They did NOT have the Japanese Naval code broken at the time. Even if they had, the order telling the strike force to proceed to the attack, was “CLIMB MT. Nitaka” Now if YOU could figure out those words meant attack Pearl Harbor, YOU are in the wrong business. Then the strike force had strict radio silence for a couple of WEEKS when they were assembling In the north of JAPAN.. THAT is why Kimmel had NO idea of where they were.

    Given this state of affairs, Kimmel knew the US was probably going to be at war with Japan in a matter of days from the war warnings and alerts he had gotten from Washington. Yet he had no air patrols out, nor did Short take any actions to defend Pearl Harbor from Japanese attack which was his responsibility. He too had no patrols out or even put his forces on alert. That he had no knowledge of where a good part of the Japanese Navy was, that the Japanese were going to attack somewhere in a few days, yet both commanders did little to prepare to defend their own base against such an attack. THAT is the responsibility of commanders. That is their failure alone, not some conspiracy on the part of FDR. FDR’s job is NOT to tell his commanders HOW to do their jobs.

  42. Pete that is outstanding. Since Heinlein was a Naval Academy grad, I think he probably had Pearl Harbor in mind when he wrote that. I would add another corollary, that those who resort to conspiracy theories as explanation lack the intelligence that they assume in others.

  43. AY Once again you show your ignorance, especially about YIP,Willow Run where I fly into all the time. The first B-24 came off the production line in Sep 42, NOT three years before in 1938 before WWII even started. IN FACT, it was Eisenhower who was brought to DC by Gen.Marshall to establish the War Plans division which was the military industrial complex which won WWII. That only happened after the Louisiana war games in 41, I believe.

  44. rndyjet says ” those who resort to conspiracy theories as explanation lack the intelligence that they assume in others.”

    Must be referring to Bushes/Obama and the long-disproven conspiracy theories they promote as explanations. Do they lack intelligence -, or are they intentional liars?

  45. **bill mcwilliams 1, December 8, 2013 at 1:53 pm **

    Yes they do Bill, but most of the public sees right through them now.

    A most interesting case, semi-current, was the 93 World Trade Towers bombing. That court case is a matter of public record. ie: the audio tapes.

    I finding the evidence so spooky I hesitate to write what needs repeated in public again, so I’m not writing it now.

    I haven’t read all this piece below yet, but it’s something the cultist chew on.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/pearl-harbor-hawaii-was-surprised-fdr-was-not.html

  46. AY I suggest you learn more than reading Wikipedia..

    The us had turned numerous auto plants into warri diction efforts about three years before we actually got involved…. Such plants as willow run…. The tank plant in macomb county….Chryslers

    You also forget what YOU wrote so I include a passage for refreshing your memory. WWII started Sep 1939 and the US came in on Dec. 41. Three from 1939 is 1936, then 3 from 1941 is 1938. I thought I would help you out on your math problem too. The production of complete planes did not start until 1942 when the first rolled of the line though the plant had started in 1941 to produce parts. Also, you will note that Willow Run was NOT an auto plant until AFTER the war. I suggest you also READ your own posts, and what you recommend to others.

    Given the isolationist sentiment up to Pearl Harbor, to even think that the US would shut down any civilian production for war production is ABSURD on its face. The only measures FDR could get through was in fact the resolution allowing the US to sell military supplies to Britain and France. Hell FDR could barely get the draft extended in 1941 and the saying among the draftees was OHIO, Over the Hill In Oct. Then when Britain ran out of money to pay for the supplies, he got Lend-Lease in 1941.

  47. ** One of my Great Grand Dads rode with William Tecumseh Sherman & his march though the South. Yes, he was Honorable Discharged. **

    Sorry for the typo.

    My Great Grand Dad likely never rode anywhere with Sherman, that is unless he happened to have liberated a horse or a mule along the way.

    He was in an infantry unit formed out Indiana. As I understand it most of them were barefoot not by choice.

    That unit was one of which marched in a parade in DC celebrating the end of the Civil War. ( AKA: War of Yankee Aggression. lol wink)

  48. Randy,

    I suppose like the tooth fairy things magically appear….. This is Christmas…. So it’s ok to believe…..

  49. **Given the isolationist sentiment up to Pearl Harbor**

    I keep seeing people use the word “isolationist” attempting to define myself & other through history.

    There are likely a few isolationist, but I know when it comes to myself & Ron Paul’s stated position the proper definition wound non-interventionist.

    In other words we demand our govt stays out of other country’s internal affairs unless the US congress declares that nation to be a threat to our nation.

    Thus avoiding foreign entanglements that the founders warned us of.

  50. oky1 says “In other words we demand our govt stays out of other country’s internal affairs unless the US congress declares that nation to be a threat to our nation.”

    IOW – no more false flag operations such as 9/11 or outright lies about
    Saddam, Ghaddafi, Assad etal. etc. right?

  51. Right Bill, no more false flags.

    That’s why I choose to mention that 93 WTC attack, by the court record it seems clear to me that’s what that case was.

    But many of us know those aholes are likely right now planning more False Flag attacks like Boston 4/2013 & intend to attempt to blame them on us peaceful Americans who want nothing more then to have those tyrants that have infiltrated our govt run off or arrested.

    Remain peaceful & keep shinning a light exposing those cockroaches raping kids, grandmas & shooting puppies, etc…..

  52. Arrested human development issues shall remain, until the day that bias yields to the pursuits of truth by doubting Thomas’s first asking for proof of a contention – prior to cavalier/capricious dismissal of a premise.

    You know – that thing called science/evidence.

  53. Many of you here have no doubt heard of Major General Smedley Butler.

    If there was ever one short history report you could read you really owe it to yourself/families/friends to read his comments: “WAR is a racket.”

    Hell, now someone was kind enough to give you it in a video.

  54. Wsn’t GW’HB’s father one of the coup plotters? I’m nearly positive he was.
    Seems to run in that family. GWH is connected to Dallas in ’63. the attempt on Reagan in ’81. Gw in 2000 & 2004.

  55. Bill,

    For decades those of us that clearly see the massive conspiracies going on right in front of our eyes were ridiculed.

    Yet just look at the case of the Nazi family of the Bushs & Prescott Bush.

    CBS & other media in the USA kept it a tightly held secret that Prescott Bush was a Nazi that hated American & even as GHW Bush, GW ran for prez the media made no mention of what is a matter of Public Court Records.

  56. Rafflaw:

    There’s plenty of available evidence that FDR knew in advance. You’re
    just stuck in the “belief” phase of PH. JFK, WTC etc. Hopefully, one day you will make yourself aware of what really happened, and move into the actual knowledge phase of your understanding. Unless you’re just here shilling for
    The Man.

  57. **rafflaw 1, December 8, 2013 at 11:28 pm

    bill,
    Show me the evidence.
    **

    Raf, I posted some for you just above here, there’s much more out the net.

    ** Oky1 1, December 8, 2013 at 3:07 pm **

  58. All history stories over 50 years old have one thing in common.

    It happened a long time ago and the fog of war and peace have settled in.

    Today, there is ample proof that history is not as relevant as today is:

    Last month he appeared at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas in Sydney, Australia, where he spoke at length on these themes.

    It took a month, but on Sunday The Guardian published a highly edited version on its site—under the title, “There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show”—which drew wide attention. As far as I can see, no one posted the video of his entire talk, however, along with questions from a host and the audience. So here’s one excerpt from the edited piece and then the full video…

    (How America Itself Has Become ‘a Horror Show’, The Nation). So, I say again, some of the remarkable people of those times would not like what is happening now.

    The good news is that our current mistakes do not take away from who they were.

    Likewise, future generations will not take away from our doing the proper thing now either.

  59. ralphlaw

    “Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson both managed to entice “enemy” attacks on U.S. forces to rally American public opinion Congressional support. They aren’t alone. While damage to the U.S. fleet and personnel at Pearl Harbor far exceeded the couple of bullet holes inflicted on the USS Turner Joy and Maddox in the Tonkin Gulf in 1964, the pre-event manipulation was not all that different. That people in government might conspire to keep their machinations hidden from the press and public, sadly, isn’t novel either anymore. Radiation experiments, commandos known to be captured, but written off as killed and all the rest have taught us almost too much about human nature.”

    “Day of Deceit” provides compelling evidence that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked Japan to attack the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor so that America could enter the war on the allied side. Stinnett, a distinguished World War II navy veteran who researched his subject for over sixteen years, provides the following evidence:
    1. A naval intelligence officer named Arthur McCollum developed an eight-point plan to provoke Japanese hostilities. This plan reached Roosevelt who implemented all eight points.
    2. Contrary to popular belief, the Japanese navy broke radio silence on multiple occasions prior to December 7, 1941.
    3. More than 94% of all secret Japanese naval messages (including some with direct reference to the impending attack on Pearl Harbor) were successfully decoded by American intelligence units prior to December 7, 1941
    4. Roosevelt implemented a change of naval command that placed proponents of the eight-point-provocation plan in key positions of power. However, the newly promoted commander of Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel was consistently denied access to vital decoded translations of Japanese naval communications.
    5. Naval Intelligence and the FBI successfully monitored the communication of Japanese intelligence agents in Hawaii for months. These communications, which included a bombing grid map of Pearl Harbor, revealed Japan’s intent.
    6. Much of the information successfully collected and analyzed by American Intelligence organizations prior to December 7, 1941 was reinforced by information from British and Dutch intelligence.
    7. A sophisticated radio tracking system spanning from Alaska to Indonesia enabled America to track Japanese commercial and military shipping patterns.

  60. “”Day of Deceit” provides compelling evidence that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked Japan to attack the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor so that America could enter the war on the allied side. Stinnett, a distinguished World War II navy veteran who researched his subject for over sixteen years, provides the following evidence:
    1. A naval intelligence officer named Arthur McCollum developed an eight-point plan to provoke Japanese hostilities. This plan reached Roosevelt who implemented all eight points.
    2. Contrary to popular belief, the Japanese navy broke radio silence on multiple occasions prior to December 7, 1941.
    3. More than 94% of all secret Japanese naval messages (including some with direct reference to the impending attack on Pearl Harbor) were successfully decoded by American intelligence units prior to December 7, 1941
    4. Roosevelt implemented a change of naval command that placed proponents of the eight-point-provocation plan in key positions of power. However, the newly promoted commander of Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel was consistently denied access to vital decoded translations of Japanese naval communications.
    5. Naval Intelligence and the FBI successfully monitored the communication of Japanese intelligence agents in Hawaii for months. These communications, which included a bombing grid map of Pearl Harbor, revealed Japan’s intent.
    6. Much of the information successfully collected and analyzed by American Intelligence organizations prior to December 7, 1941 was reinforced by information from British and Dutch intelligence.
    7. A sophisticated radio tracking system spanning from Alaska to Indonesia enabled America to track Japanese commercial and military shipping patterns.

  61. “Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson both managed to entice “enemy” attacks on U.S. forces to rally American public opinion Congressional support. They aren’t alone. While damage to the U.S. fleet and personnel at Pearl Harbor far exceeded the couple of bullet holes inflicted on the USS Turner Joy and Maddox in the Tonkin Gulf in 1964, the pre-event manipulation was not all that different. That people in government might conspire to keep their machinations hidden from the press and public, sadly, isn’t novel either anymore. Radiation experiments, commandos known to be captured, but written off as killed and all the rest have taught us almost too much about human nature

  62. While LBJ did stage the excuse for war in that he did NOT tell the whole truth on any of the so called attacks, FDR did NOT entice anything other than escorting convoys part of the way to Britain. The Rueben James was SUNK by a German U boat just a few days before Pearl Harbor. FDR did not use that as an excuse to declare war on Germany because he knew he could not get political backing for a declaration of war against Hitler on that alone. LBJ knew that the US destroyers were covering a South Vietnamese attack on North Vietnamese islands, and he also knew that there had been NO attack at all the second time.

    FDR had cut off all steel and oil exports to Japan several months before to pressure the Japanese to end their war against China. That was perfectly within US rights and is a normal part of diplomatic means as we are doing with Iran. Since Japan got 80% of their oil from the US. it is obvious that Japan HAD to do something soon to get that oil. THAT is why most folks thought that Japan would attack only south which is where the oil was available. It did NOT mean that Japan HAD to attack the US. FDR did move the Pacific fleet from its base in San Diego, to Hawaii which is not exactly a major provocation in anybody’s book. We lucked out that the Japanese did not launch a third wave since that would have nailed the POL stocks, which would have forced the US to abandon Hawaii. That would have been an even greater disaster and prolonged the war by years. FDR sure as HELL would not have wanted anything like that at all.

    Yamamoto knew that to forestall any US interference with the push to the south, he had to neutralize the US Pacific fleet, which is why he hit Pearl Harbor. He had nothing but contempt for the US naval commanders since he knew that most he knew were not first rate. He was not in favor of war with the US because he knew the immense industrial power of it since he knew the US quite well. His concerns were overruled because as we found out after the war, the Japanese thought the US would sue for peace rather than keep on fighting because of the isolationist sentiment which had nearly defeated even the draft and they knew the US was totally unprepared for war. Given those facts, I cannot put FDR in the same category as LBJ’s deception, though FDR was devious to a degree, but nothing compared to LBJs blatant lies.

  63. Bill McWilliam’s has a very good motive in supporting the notion that FDR led us into war. Bill is a holocaust denier and presumably a NAZI admirer, or do I have that wrong Billy?

  64. I see that bill m knows nothing about security measures in the military or military operations. I have no knowledge of the eight point plan and I have read a LOT on FDR. An intel officer does NOT report to the President by the way and bill m shows NOTHING at all that could possibly be a “provocation”! Unless he thinks that moving the fleet to Hawaii is one and that we should not have the right to move on our own territory so as not to offend Japan.

    It is absurd to say that the attack fleet transmitted while enroute to Hawaii. ALL naval vessels in such a group take the radio key and lock it in the captains safe. This is like the people who believe that radio operators heard all kinds of radio traffic from the force. It is beyond belief. The reason is that even assuming the codes are secure, such transmissions give away your position. The US Navy had been using that for a long time to track Japanese naval movements which is why the US lost track of the fleet because of that silence. Such silence SHOULD have been of MAJOR concern to Kimmel.

    The only code that had been broken on Dec 7 was the diplomatic code purple which was decoded and was the notice that did not reach Pearl Harbor, but that made NO mention of an attack on Pearl Harbor, just that the codes of all Japanese facilities in US areas should be burned. All that did was confirm that an attack against US territory was coming somewhere. Of course, Kimmel could have looked out his window and seen what the Japanese were doing at the Jap consulate before the attack. In FACT only 10% of the Naval code was being read, and even then the message that went to the fleet was “climb Mt Nitaka” Sure lets everybody know that Pearl Harbor was the target, right?

    All naval attaches and diplomatic facilities are SUPPOSED to get intel on harbors, ships, etc.. That is their JOB! The US did that for Japan too. Think that meant the US was going to attack Japan?

    The US was in a code sharing agreement with other nations, but the US group at Hypo, Hawaii was the best of the bunch and only was able to break the J-25 code just before the battle of Midway. Even then the OP-20, in DC made erroneous claims and fed BAD intel to Nimitz. Rochefort and his group made the correct call which severely embarrassed Cmdr Redman who was not very good at his job, but was a charter member of the Academy Protective Ass. Any claim that Redman makes is not backed up by his performance. He was backed up by his brother who was a Rear Adm which counted for more than his performance.

    The US did get its hands on the commercial shipping codes and broke them which helped in positioning US subs when war broke out. bill m still cannot answer the MAIN question, why would the US want to get in a war with Japan when Germany was the main target? Germany was under NO obligation to go to war against the US since Japan attacked the US. The treaty ONLY made it mandatory if Japan was attacked by the US. Indeed if Hitler had not solved FDRs problem by declaring war against the US, we would have only been at war with Japan.

  65. It’d be helpful if the records surrounding the run up to WW2/Pearl Harbor were unsealed/unredacted.

    But there are some records available to the public.

    And yes the Nazi Holocaust is well documented & I remember one uncle of mine telling me as a soilder, they were order to the scene of one the death camps & viewed the local towns people being forced to bury victims of that massacre.

    I don’t know much on Japanese massacres & much of the Japs Bio/chem weapons programs still remains sealed by the US govt.

    One thing we know for sure from history is that govt’s are by far the largest murders of humans.

    And that’s why the founders here said Never surround you Rights under the 2nd.

    And of course that’s why this govt is currently attempting to distroy the 2nd amd.

  66. Attitude:

    **Radar, too, was insufficient. There were not enough trained surveillance pilots. Many of the reconnaissance craft were old and suffered from a lack of spare parts. The commanders’ repeated requests to Washington for additional patrol planes were turned down. Rear Admiral Edward T. Layton, who served at Pearl Harbor, summed it up in his book And I Was There: “There was never any hint in any intelligence received by the local command of any Japanese threat to Hawaii. Our air defenses were stripped on orders from the army chief himself. Of the twelve B-17s on the island, only six could be kept in the air by cannibalizing the others for spare parts.”**

  67. Attitude:

    There are a many unsung heroes among us even today. Not seeking any special recognition, metals nor plaques for their wall.

    They just do their job as if their own families lives depended on their good works. Just like most of us around here are still trained.

    One of my wifes uncles in WW2, he was an instrument man. He made a career out of after the war. Retired out of AA with 40 in.

    Good chance many of a flier were looking at his work & never knew his name. It was Calvin.

    We’ve some of his hand built clocks hear he made as a hobby.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

  68. ** The Hersh article is based in part on a four-page secret cable given to a top official at the Defense Intelligence Agency on June 20, one of a group of intelligence community documents allegedly stating that jihadi rebel group Jabhat al-Nusra has the ability to make sarin gas. Sarin is the chemical believed to have been used in the Aug 21 chemical attack in Ghouta that crossed Obama’s “red line” and prompted the administration to push for a strike on Assad’s regime.

    “When the attack occurred al-Nusra should have been a suspect, but the administration cherry-picked intelligence to justify a strike against Assad,” Hersh writes.

    And this:

    Hersh’s conclusion: Obama sought to mislead the nation into war.

    “The distortion, [a source] said, reminded him of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, when the Johnson administration reversed the sequence of National Security Agency intercepts to justify one of the early bombings of North Vietnam,” Hersh writes.

    He also raises a more immediate question: “While the Syrian regime continues the process of eliminating its chemical arsenal, the irony is that, after Assad’s stockpile of precursor agents is destroyed, al-Nusra and its Islamist allies could end up as the only faction inside Syria with access to the ingredients that can create sarin, a strategic weapon that would be unlike any other in the war zone.”

    Do you believe your government or some wacky conspiracy theorist??!?!

    Do you believe your government or some wacky conspiracy theorist??!?!

    Read more at http://www.maxkeiser.com/page/2/#XDepR6swCWU9RUCV.99 **

    http://www.maxkeiser.com/page/2/

  69. I could well be delusional, but I still believe this is a nation of mostly decent people that will stand up without having to be asked & do that’s task called for when needed.

  70. LaserDLiquidator,

    I’m glad to hear you’re going after them.

    Among our other threats are the threats from those religious outfits like the Mormons. Many of them many not think themselves a threat, but I believe they are.

    And among their leaders is the Romneys/Oran Hatch, etc..

    One source for you to gain info on legal frauds, if you’re ever in need is at livinglies.wordpress.com

    There was also a gal named Maggie McDonald out of the Boston area that was doing forensic investigations into Wallst derivative/securities frauds.

    If I had anything else that might aid you I’d offer it up.

  71. Everyone should remember in this current time of social/govt/economic unrest caused by Wallst Banks/Insurance co’s & their DC Polecats, that there is something beyond Fear!

Comments are closed.