In Winnipeg, a white nationalist mother thought it was fun to draw a swastika on the arm of her seven-year-old daughter. When a teacher rubbed off the mark, the mother drew it back on. The second time, the school reported the incident and child welfare officials took both the daughter and a two-year-old boy away from the mother. It is a case that raises very serious questions of free speech balanced against child welfare.
Recently, there have been some alarming attacks on free speech by Canadian agencies, click here. This story, however, is the first involving the removal of children.
Schools are given a great deal of leeway in prohibiting hateful or inappropriate clothing. Presumably, this would also include body messages. However, the penalty is generally suspension or expulsion — not removal from the home. Moreover, so long as it is lawful for a child to receive a tattoo, a family is allowed to put a cross, star or other religious or political symbol on their children. The school may require that it be covered up, but it cannot prohibit a family from exhibiting their political beliefs.
The mother in this case is obviously pretty creepy with a house full of Nazi symbols. She now admits that it was a mistake: “It was one of the stupidest things I’ve done in my life but it’s no reason to take my kids.” Yet, Child and Family Services has removed the children because it considers such views to be potentially harmful for the children.
There is no greater form of government punishment for speech than taking away one’s children. This mother has a right to raise her children in a Nazi home. The school has the right to regulate some demonstrations of speech that are clearly inimical to the educational mission — though such limitations have to be narrowly tailored.
Canadians need to take a serious look at these attacks on free speech and the future of free expression in the country.
For the full story, click here.
I find the topic of removal of children from their parent a touchy subject that should be done with plenty of thoughtfulness and introspection. Rarely is it really necessary IMO and there are options.
I wanted to bring to Jonathan’s attention this NYTimes article on the ICE raid in Postville, Iowa meatpacking plant. Didn’t know if he was
interested and had no contact info to tip him off.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/11immig.html?
The article contains a video of Erik Camayd-Freixas, Ph.D. of Florida International University, the disgusted 23 year federally certified interpreter who has broken his code of confidentiality and has spoken up to reveal the inner workings.
More from the Sanctuary:
http://thesanctuary.soapblox.net/showDiary.do;jsessionid=603E26830E004BDE43B0709A39F83D4E?diaryId=269
“Dr Camayd-Freixas will be testifying before Congress later this month at the Immigration Sub-Committee of the House of Representatives in regards to the raid.
He has asked that anyone moved by his account help the relief effort in any way possible;
“Finally, my new friends from Postville involved in the relief effort inform me that they are still dealing with a very tough humanitarian crisis. So, please, if you have any opportunity for fundraising, this is the address where donations can be sent:
St. Bridget’s Hispanic Ministry Fund
c/o Sister Mary McCauley
PO Box 369
Postville, Iowa 52162” “
I apologize for screwing up the word “has” in my first sentence.
Bartlebee,
First of all, this country ahs been leaning fascist ever since George W. Bush was appointed to the Presidency. Secondly, however, I still believe that the “State” has to have extraordinary circumstances to remove one’s children. Is teaching your kids to be a skinhead extraordinary? I am not sure, but it is getting close. Maybe Canada should recommend some family counseling for the mother and her children.
Now, back to my comment, unless Messpogirl wants to start more trouble he can’t finish with me.
Which is more Nazi like?
To draw a fake tattoo of a symbol of your belief system that may be offensive to others?
Or to silence someones free expression and KIDNAP their children away, tearing apart a family and permantly traumatizing the child, simply because you don’t like their belief system?
😐
Don’t know about you folks, but I’ll take “B” Monty.
😐
But in all fairness, he would make a great Nazi.
mespo727272
1, July 13, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Jill:
Do you enjoy eavesdroppers as much as I do? I thought manners dictated allowing the conversation to continue among the participants and injecting only if someone asked it of you,
Speaking of Nazi’s, lets examine this proclamation by the idiot calling himself messpo.
Notice once again Bartlebee said nothing to him.
Nothing.
Yet he decides to insult Bartlebee’s “manners” by not “waiting to speak until spoken to first”.
😐
So what exactly is he saying?
Is he saying that this is not a public blog?
Because in a public blog, any member of the “public” is by default, “invited” to comment in any public thread where comments have been enabled.
Or is he saying that he is the lone decider of who speaks, or who doesn’t? After all, IF bloggers are not welcome to comment on the topic of the thread, WITHOUT first being “spoken to”, then who pray tell, does the first speaking?
😐
So tell me, does his comment, make sense?
Is it “blog ettiquite” to wait until one is “spoken to”, before they are permitted to speak?
That certainly would explain the dismal post count heretofore in this blog.
After all, if the self annointed “blog nanny’s”, like Messpo are the only ones permitted to post their comments on a thread, and can thus decide who speaks, and who does not, then its not a blog, now is it?
But the truth of course is that messpo is just a big baby, who doesn’t “like” Bartlebee, but can’t contend with Bartlebee’s comments, so instead he insults him, “FIRST”, every time he sees him comment.
And like I told this momma’s boy yesterday.
If he doesn’t like it, then he shouldn’t START it.
Jill:
Did you hearing a buzzing sound on the blog recently? It’s annoying but unintelligible.
We say we don’t like Nazi’s.
Perhaps then we should try not acting like them.
The real question here in this case, from where I see it Rafflaw, is who’s the more “nazi”?
The one drawing a fake tatoo on their kid, or the state, for kidnapping the child and silencing the mothers right to think and believe as she chooses.
Free speech and freedom of belief is not just for the beliefs we agree with.
See Maypo, when you comment in a PUBLIC blog, your comments are there for all to see, and respond to.
And since I was responding to Rafflaw, and not you, you can kiss my rosy red ass.
😀
Pucker up.
mespo727272
1, July 13, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Jill:
Do you enjoy eavesdroppers as much as I do? I thought manners dictated allowing the conversation to continue among the participants and injecting only if someone asked it of you,
Oh I’m sorry. I was under the impression this was a public blog.
Not a chatroom where you decide who can speak and who cannot.
😐
Good thing I could give a rats ass what an inbred with a big mouth thinks, ay?
But hey, soon America, and apparently Canada, will not even be recognizable to those who came before.
People love “telling others what to do”.
Its the new America. Or should I say, “Amerika”.
People today feel they have the right to commit acts of terror and crime against individuals simply because they don’t agree with their individual philosophies.
The real irony here, is people are actually suggesting that we adopt the tactics of the Nazi’s, with our own citizens, simply because they exhibit a Nazi symbol.
But hey, American’s never were too smart with regards to their own freedoms.
Just look how many we’ve gladly handed over to the government over the last 20 years.
Jill:
Do you enjoy eavesdroppers as much as I do? I thought manners dictated allowing the conversation to continue among the participants and injecting only if someone asked it of you, or if you were a welcome member of the conversation. Well maybe things have changed in polite discourse in our new electronic age.
And as for “indoctrination” of these kids, we ALL indoctrinate our kids, with the beliefs and values we hold dear, including religious, political and social morals and mores.
What’s happening here is, people don’t like Nazi’s, and understandably so, but they are taking their “preferences” and forcing them on others.
If parents believe the Nazi way was the right one, then thats their call, and they certainly have the right to teach that to their kids.
In fact, just visit Parma Idaho sometime, and you’ll find lots of families, even churches, teaching similar doctrines. And no ones taking their kids away.
Freedom means being willing to tolerate views that make your blood boil, as long as the people espousing them are not committing acts of violence, or physically assaulting the children.
Drawing a homemade tattoo of a symbol of your personal beliefs on your own kid, regardless of the symbol, is not child abuse.
Bad judgment, sure. Politically incorrect? Absolutely. Offensive? To most people no doubt.
But “abuse”?
Not even close.
Jill:
In this limited circumstance, I have no problem with giving the parent the choice between teaching hate or rearing her child. Would we be so forgiving if the mother was raising ideologically motivated child bombers who were simply not strong enough yet to carry the payload? To teach that some of our fellow citizens are less than human and thus are amenable to gratuitous punishment on account of their ethnicity or skin color seems to me no less pernicious. I don’t think substantive due process requires that we permit parents to raise children who are ideologically determined to undermine our freedoms, our pluralism, and our society.
rafflaw
1, July 13, 2008 at 10:01 am
This is a tough one. I agree with the Free Speech implications, but growing up in Skokie, I saw what the fear of that symbol did to people, 20 plus years after WWII.
Agreed, it is tough, however stealing families children, is beneath contempt over such a thing.
We don’t steal peoples kids over “bad taste”.
And drawing a swastika on her child was in bad taste, but child abuse?
Not hardly.
Child abuse has come to be such a widely interpreted accusation that indeed our Child Protective Services in this country, and apparently in Canada now too, looks and acts more like the Salem witch trials, then an agency enforcing laws.
In Texas, 400 families were traumatized because a few busy body women in the state CPS decided that they had the authority to kidnap children from their parents, without charge or demonstrable cause.
Fortunately, their State Supreme Court was more concerned with following the law than desecrating it, and ordered the return of these kids to their families.
We’ve become, by our own hands, and thanks to the self righteous bigots of this country, and the busy body security moms, more of a police state than a democratic repbulic.
And apparently, Canada’s more than happy to follow suit.
Drawing a swastika was in bad taste, and the school has every right to prohibit the child from attending the school wearing such a tasteless symbol on their person.
However what effectively constitutes “kidnapping” the child, and labeling a “differing viewpoint’ child abuse, is a crime, and the state authorities responsible should be held accountable for their actions.
Abuse indicates cruel and harsh treatment.
Theres nothing more cruel and harsh than physically kidnapping a young child from their hearth and home, and placing them in the cold, and usually incompetent care of the state.
mespo,
I personally also consider indoctrination a form of child abuse, I just don’t know that taking children away from their parents, unless a “narrowly tailored” law is broken, is the way to handle it. Really, in my area parents who don’t indoctinate would be considered unfit by a vast majority of this community. I am open to ideas. What do you think is the right way to treat the Nazi mother and other parents who do indoctrinate?
Jill
Jill:
Indoctrination is indoctrination, and by whatever means or ideologies implemented is child abuse.
This and other cases like it are heartbreaking. Where I live there are many ultra conservative right wing Christians. Many of their children are intellectually stunted because of strict religious prohibition against learning science and critical thinking. These same children hate lesbian and gay people and all non-believers. One of these young people is helping me in my garden. I care for her very deeply. She is a highly intelligent, genuinely kind young person. Yet every day I hear about how people do not know god and she needs to teach them before they go to hell. Her church has a scary tape that they play during street missionary work. It involves Jesus as the lover of a young girl. The young girl then meets a handsome, inticing stranger (satan) whom she falls for. She leaves her lover, Jesus, becomes depressed, starts cutting herself and falls into complete despair. But Jesus convinces her that he is the one to give her everything she needs; all the love. even all the material goods, like nice clothing etc.
Naturally, when I hear these things it is very painful to me. I do not think she is well loved at home. At the same time, her parents do feed, house and clothe her, and in their minds, I believe they believe they are doing right by her. My own way of dealing with this young woman is to be as kind, loving and supportive of her as possible.
Many societies and many religions are what I would call “soul” murdering. If we took children away from parents for teaching cruel and dumb-ass beliefs we’d be taking away a lot of children. So I think it’s important to provide forums that people may use to question these received “truths” and to provide an accepting place for young people.
This is a tough one. I agree with the Free Speech implications, but growing up in Skokie, I saw what the fear of that symbol did to people, 20 plus years after WWII. That was when a local Nazi group wanted to march in Skokie which to this day includes many residents who survived the Nazi concentration camps. You saw the fear and the anger that the symbol and name caused in that community. Luckily, calmer heads prevailed. If the mother is truly teaching her child to hate like a Nazi, she is at best, a very poor role model. But where does Free Speech end and child endangerment begin? I would probably agree that she should have the right to teach her child whatever she wants and the children should not be taken away for that issue. But I would hope that the child services people keep an eye on those kids. What a scary story.