With the Democratic leadership continuing to block any impeachment effort or any serious effort to hold officials liable for the U.S. torture program, Congress was free to hold another bizarre hearing today to calmly discussed our use of torture. Even though current Attorney General continues to evade the question, former Attorney General acknowledged and defended water boarding.
This is not the first hearing where the value of our use of torture was addressed as a routine matter of discussion, click here. Indeed, we have now gotten to the point where we openly compare our acts of torture with those of other nations, click here.
Thus, it was no surprise to see members bantering about on the use of a war crime today like it was some chicken subsidy going to mark up.
For his part, Ashcroft fulfilled his stereotype as more general and attorney. When asked if he felt that other nations could legitimately waterboard our own soldiers when captured, Ashcroft did not contest that possibility. Instead, he gave a non-answer: “Well, my subscription to these memos, and my belief that the law provides the basis for these memos persisted even in the presence of my son serving two tours of duty overseas in the Gulf area as a member of our armed forces,.” Some could easily read that response as affirming that it would be permissible to waterboard our own soldiers when captured.
With the International Red Cross informing the Administration that high officials could be tried for war crimes over our torture program, here, many of us are left with this out-of-body sensation in watching these hearings unfold. Just yesterday, Speaker Pelosi reaffirmed that (no matter how strong the evidence might be that President Bush committed crimes, including war crimes, in office) she would not allow impeachment proceedings to begin. So, instead, we just sit around and calmly discuss war crimes like some interesting factoids and conversation points.
For the full story, click here.
forcing someone with the threat of physical duress(i.e. waterboarding) constitutes TORTURE–Plain & Simple!!!!!!!
And I have yet to hear from you guys on the morality of these things: A country of morals? You think priests raping boys, murders, obese people, pornography, stealing money from shareholders makes a moral country? HAHAHA!! Oh please, the rest of the world is laughing at us, but it’s not because of torture.
No, it means you seem to have this impression that just because they backed out of torture, they are so nice and moral. And I asked because the only people I’ve heard use BFF were teenagers, but I guess it’s cool for you to use gramps.
M,
JT is a constitutional lawyer, not a Wall street investor.
The problem with the internet is there’s no-one to do a rim-shot at the end of a one-liner.
M,
I will not equate legalized gambling as being the same as torture.
M,
Thanks for suggesting that I am under 14 years old. BFF means Best Friends Forever. By the way, I have to confess. I am not 14. I am 57. I guess your suggestion that the FBI is not always moral means that it is ok to torture. Wow.
So same time tomorrow for the debate on legalizing gambling?
M,
I am very closed minded. I only listen to people who debate using facts that they can back up. In fact I’m so bad, I only let myself be persuaded by those facts if the conclusions drawn from them make sense.
I did like your point about the Death Penalty. We should constantly be reviewing our beliefs to make sure that at the very least we’re consistent. We also (as bot you and Miles pointed out) shouldn’t be afraid to make sure that our laws are just.
Miles,
I forgot to answer one of your questions. No, I would not be in favor of legalizing torture.
My final thought. Go read a book called Inside the FBI. You’ll find that the FBI isn’t as moral as you think.
I’m sorry, I’m not 14. What does BFF stand for?
Miles,
I am sorry if my poor spelling insulted you. To answer your question what should we do if we catch Osama bin Laden? it is simple, you do what the FBI and the Military do and believe in, you question him in a legal manner. You can get solid information from criminals through legal and moral means and the FBI is quite good at it. They even left Gitmo because they didn’t believe the methods were legal or effective.
M,
Haven’t you seen the news. Your BFF is sending a diplomat to open up relations with, Iran! Imagine that. A few months ago he said it was like appeasement to talk with them directly and he is now appeasing them, I guess. Now that you have been shown that torture is illegal, ineffective and immoral, you want to discuss the upcoming election? Just what are you afraid of if Obama wins?
How people just don’t get mad about stupid things? We can argue forever, I think we can agree we will not change opinions. So is the life of politics. What is interesting is that you and I don’t know about half the things the government is doing out there. Most of it is for our protection. You always hear about the bad things we do, but you never hear about the plots the FBI, CIA, and NSA stop everyday that do in fact take place. So just relax and take a deep breath, and be thankful that you live in this country. If you don’t agree with me, that’s fine, you have your opinion. I’ve only made fun of your spelling today, I haven’t gone as low as to say you’re compared to crap. This is why we are becoming undone as a country.
M,
Yeah, well McCain’s an stinky old man. That’s why we shouldn’t allow Coastal drilling!! And no true Scottsman would put cream on their oats!
I just thought I’d throw that out there while we’re trying to hit all the logical fallacies.
You guys complain about me being closed-minded. But you are just as bad.
What is crazy is that it’s the technique of waterboarding that makes it torture. If anyone had this done to them they would probably more often than not say that it is. I think before anyone in the government can vote yes it isn’t torture that they should be publicly waterboarded on C-Span and we could actually see their reaction. Fear Factor – Congressional Edition. I would think you could get the information the same by just the face first in a tub of water method. Plus to this being it’s hard to put this in the same context as waterboarding. One seems deviously devised while the other is a simpler way of getting what you need. Here’s a way to not ‘torture’ them. Put them in a room with a professional boxer. They have the ‘opportunity to defend’ themselves as well. Better methods need to be employed. I would say beating the hell out of someone is more humane than some of the stuff that we are doing. It’s like we’re trying to permanently traumatize people in the process of interrogation, not to mention the innocent people that have it done to them. This is probably the bigger issue. If ‘coercive interrogation’ was used on only people we knew were involved directly and that they had information we couldn’t find on their computer or such, then I could see why torture would be employed, but it is the fact that we do this to many/all the ‘prisoners’ that we ‘detain’in this ‘war on terror,’ that really upsets me and makes me feel like our countries values and honor have been corrupted/hijacked. The real world is not like the Series 24.
You guys are probably gonna vote for Obama right? The guy who was friends with a man that is a terrorist and was pictured standing on a burning American flag. He used to belong to a church that was anything but friendly. His wife hates America and is finally proud of something in this country. And oh yeah, he’s been to 58 states, two more to go. Oh did I mention he wants to talk with Iran and North Korea to make good relations with them? Are you serious? Nice.
M,
I would state right away that the death penalty is wrong and does not serve its stated purposes. It doesn’t discourage other murderers and it doesn’t help society to kill in society’s name. If you are trying to suggest that since the country will execute someone, we are free to just torture bad people, then you are incorrect. Ask George W. who has presided over more executions in Texas than anyone else, why are the murders still happening? Murder is wrong, torture is wrong and both are illegal already. And in my belief the death penalty is wrong. Unfortunately, it isn’t illegal, …yet.
Mespo,
I wasn’t wasting my time. If I can’t defend my beliefs with rational arguments based on reality and not on my gut feelings I look at whether I need to change them them.
Plus how often do I get a chance to use that whole shtick about “a part of the anatomy…?”
Mespo,
You are right, but Torture is not the same as being wrong in a politcal debate. And now Miles wants to discuss what is torture and what isn’t torture. It has already been defined by law and international treaties. The world understands this, but George W. and his blind followers do not.