Dave Lieber is a columnist for Fort Worth Star-Telegram who has found himself in a bizarre situation where he has been criminally charged for telling his 11-year-old son to walk home a few blocks from McDonalds. It began with an argument in McDonald’s and Lieber leaving his son to walk home. Lieber would return a short time later to find police speaking to his son and thought that the matter was closed by an amicable reunion and mutual apologies of the father and son. It wasn’t.
Lieber wrote about the experience in an August 15th column, describing how he returning after cooling off to find officers speaking with his son. He described his actions as “stupid and quite serious mistake” despite support from his readers who said that they have taken the same approach with disrespectful kids. That is when it got weird. Lieber, 51, was arrested by detectives of Watauga, Texas for child abandonment and endangerment, according to Detective Tiffany Ward.
State law defines abandonment as intentionally leaving a child younger than 15 “in any place under circumstances that expose the child to an unreasonable risk of harm.” Walking home a few blocks from McDonald’s is exposing a child to unreasonable risk of harm? How dangerous are the streets of Watauga? Yet, Lieber (who has been suspended by the newspaper) accepts that his actions “could have exposed my son to grave danger. I do know that. But in the moment of anger, I didn’t think clearly.”
I am probably the most protective, risk-adverse parent on Earth. My wife accuses me of wanting to turn the four kids into bubble babies. I would not use this type of punishment or scared straight technique. However, it is an example in my view of how we have criminalized every aspect of our lives, here.
For the full article, click here.
“If you honestly think telling you SON to take a walk, is a bad thing, that deserves punishment or EVEN YOUR TWO CENTS WORTH, then you are part of the problem, and not part of the solution.”
“Tell me how exactly, the child was “abused” by having to walk a few blocks”
CroMM,
I quit. You are once again frozen in your competitive loop, which means not bothering to actually read what is being said because as I said in my first post:
“We have reached a point in the US where as parents we have become over-protective of our children. Much of this is the fear inculcated in us by the media, mainly TV.”
Seems to agree with your sentiments.
“In my opinion, given these facts without any negatives we don’t see in the story, the man should not have been charged with two felonies.”
I never said the child was abused in any way. I said the father was a jerk for getting angry at his kid and driving away. his own story expressed his regret at this action.
You, however, choose to interpret what is in your head, rather than what is written. So okay Mr. Debating Star, I quit. you win. The nature of your victory, however, is ephemeral. You bore me and waste my time trying to get me to defend positions I never took. I thought there was a possibility that you had learned something, but all you want to do is nitpick a fight.
Mike said…
My first post clearly stated that I disagreed with the police, court and child welfare authorities.
Yea, then you called him a jerk.
How is he a jerk, for making the kid walk home?
If the kid was out of line, making him walk home might teach him to get back in line.
Who are you, or anyone, to decide how he instills respect in his son for his authority and finality on a matter?
Mike Spindell
1, August 31, 2008 at 4:16 pm
You apparently see discipline in terms of your own experiences and beliefs
No Mike, I see discipline, as long as it doesn’t physically injure the child, in terms of whatever the hell the parent wants it to be.
😐
You however apparently see the disciplining of other peoples children as whatever the hell YOU want it to be.
“And because the parents allowed them to do what the hell they wanted, and didn’t institute proper discipline in the home, which was also brought out in the case.”
CroMM,
Where did I say anything about not having discipline? I believe very strongly in discipline and my remarks certainly indicated it. My comments were all about maintaining discipline, it was the methodology of discipline about which I spoke. You apparently see discipline in terms of your own experiences and beliefs. I think you are wrong and I think that what you see as discipline is merely the same old mistakes that humans have made for ages. It is why humans are still so damn violent.
Your comments seem to be premised on the nostalgia for a time past where things were better and children knew their place. That time never existed, save for places where a citizenry made docile by violent treatment of themselves as children, was willing to follow the dictates of those in charge.
“Child abuse is a horrific crime and we need to be vigilant when it rears its head. But we are doing the children no kind service by extrapolating meanings into the word that it was never intended to include.”
My first post clearly stated that I disagreed with the police, court and child welfare authorities. I went further to explain how travesty’s like this come about. Back in my Child Welfare days and even today corporal punishment is not seen as child abuse, except in the event of serious injury or severe psychological harm. However, had you seen the direct result of angry parents, utilizing corporal punishment to kill or maim their children, as I did in far too many cases, you might see the issue in a different light. Many of those parents were not really bad people, but had let their anger get too far out of control. By the way lest you think that because of that last statement I was in any way “namsy pansy” in dealing with these real abusers (whether intentional or not), I was actually somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. However, I’m a card-carrying ACLU member and I made sure that no ones right were abridged and that each investigation was done thoroughly and impartially.
But please, defend your position some more.
Tell me how exactly, the child was “abused” by having to walk a few blocks.
Tell me how this constitutes anything that you, the fat lazy busy bodies at Mickey Dees, or the police have any role in.
Tell me how it is any of yours, or anyones business if I tell my boy to go take a walk around the block.
Tell me.
I’m all ears.
He is not a jerk, and he is certainly no criminal for merely asking his son to walk a few blocks.
Walking is not evil.
Not “abandonment”.
Not “child neglect”.
Not “child abuse”.
😐
Walking is a good thing. Not a bad one.
And before I let you sidetrack this any further from the reality of the story, THIS case, is about a dad who you are calling a “jerk”, and who was arrested on charges of CHILD ABANDONMENT, simply for telling his kid to take a walk.
If you honestly think telling you SON to take a walk, is a bad thing, that deserves punishment or EVEN YOUR TWO CENTS WORTH, then you are part of the problem, and not part of the solution.
Mike Spindell said…
At the same time it teaches a child to be deferential to authority, as we see so often in the followers of George Bush. In fact speaking of becoming a bully in response to a father’s anger, you do know George W. was considered a Black Sheep by his father and was a recipient of his anger frequently. It’s little surprise that our George W. is a bully of historic proportions
Bush’s pathology was Bush’s pathology and not the fault of his parents in disciplining him.
In fact, it is the likely result of their NOT disciplining him, and permitting him to do such things as putting fire crackers in the mouths of frogs during the rainy season, for fun.
Which they let him do, as Babs just shook her head and said “boys will be boys”.
Mike said…
It’s interesting that all the people who knew my children were amazed by their behavior and their niceness
Well isn’t that sweet.
But since you didn’t raise two little boys, but two little girls by your own admission, you haven’t a clue apparently about difference, a few micrograms of testosterone make.
Raising girls is a completely different thing, than raising BOYS.
Mike said…
The usual response to such anger is to learn to find others that you can take that same type of anger out on
A supposition in no way found in reality.
When I got clubbed in the head, as did my siblings, we simply stopped doing whatever it was that got us clobbered.
Just like Wally and the Beav.
Mike Spindell
1, August 31, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Kids today in a few instances have blown away other kids mainly because they were abused outsiders (see Columbine, etc.) who tired of being bullied, in a system that encourages bullying because of the “tough” attitudes you espouse
And because the parents allowed them to do what the hell they wanted, and didn’t institute proper discipline in the home, which was also brought out in the case.
A few decades back, spurned on by horrific news stories of murders and rapes of children by their own parents, child abuse became a national outcry, and rightly so.
But today we have bastardized the word, and expanded it to mean anything a jealous neigbor or busy body stranger, wants it to mean.
Child abuse is a horrific crime and we need to be vigilant when it rears its head. But we are doing the children no kind service by extrapolating meanings into the word that it was never intended to include.
And that is why we have stories like this one, where ignorant people, police, courts, etc, accuse parents of “child abuse” for the silliest and most trival matters, often, like we see in this story, things that are actually GOOD for the kid.
It is a travesty to the children, that we tolerate this. It is a travesty that goes unnoticed and usually unpunished.
Its not YOUR business, or mine, how Mr and Mrs Muckenfuss down the street, raise little Buford and his sister.
Its THEIR business.
Not yours. Not the courts. Not anyones.
The ONLY time it becomes are business, is when they are hurting them beyond what is considered normal in life, such as rape, physical injury beyond a smack in the chops, or other forms of actual abuse.
If I were the judge in this affair, I would order the DA to prosecute the fat, burger eating schmucks in the Mickey Dees first.
Then I’d instruct him to prosecute the “Detective”, for false arrest.
Then, I’d instruct him, to prosecute himself, for ever bringing such a ridiculous and ignorant case before my bench.
CroMM,
“This new mentality, is why we have kids blowing away other kids in schools all across the country.”
Kids today in a few instances have blown away other kids mainly because they were abused outsiders (see Columbine, etc.) who tired of being bullied, in a system that encourages bullying because of the “tough” attitudes you espouse.
“Its why, our kids today, are awash in a sea of apathy and self entitlement.”
Our kids today are not really much different than kids have ever been, except we live in a country that encourages apathy and self entitlement for most of us citizens, just like the Romans provided Bread and Circuses. i.e. crowd control
“Because namsy pansy doctrines like “not getting angry” are sold cheaply, as common sense.”
I don’t know if you are, or have been a parent, but if you allow a child to get you angry you’ve already lost the discipline battle. Why would I get angry at my kids as a means of control when it shows that I’m out of control? Because they behave like children sometimes? If you need anger to ensure a child’s proper behavior then you are failing as a parent. Disappointment and guilt work much better and reinforce good behavior in children. Anger just teaches them what buttons to push to control your behavior, or instills unreasoning fear in them, preventing them from fully taking control of their own lives.
“It does little junior no harm, to know that doing bad things, will incur pops anger, because in life, doing bad things to others, just might incur their anger as well.”
The usual response to such anger is to learn to find others that you can take that same type of anger out on. At the same time it teaches a child to be deferential to authority, as we see so often in the followers of George Bush. In fact speaking of becoming a bully in response to a father’s anger, you do know George W. was considered a Black Sheep by his father and was a recipient of his anger frequently. It’s little surprise that our George W. is a bully of historic proportions
It is your doctrines of child behavior and dealing with it, that have been sold cheaply for most of human history and I don’t think that the results you cite about learning not to do bad things to others has quite worked out. Perhaps a different approach might be needed.
It’s interesting that all the people who knew my children were amazed by their behavior and their niceness. My wife and I were constantly being asked how we did it. They are now adults, living very responsibly and achieving some nice success. What I find most satisfying though is that they think for themselves and have inquiring minds.
Mike Spindell said…
A parent’s job is to keep their children safe and hopefully to help teach them how to live properly in this world. A parent’s job is NOT to turn out clones, or to use children to live through vicariously
And how exactly, does telling your kid to walk a block or two, constitute all this?
How is it “turning out clones”? How is it “living vicariously” through them?
The guy told his kid to WALK A FEW BLOCKS.
Not eat paint thinner.
One of the most well publicized dangers facing our youth today, that any parent should be painfully aware of, is OBESITY.
So one could easily argue, that NOT making your kids walk, and driving them everywhere in your Dodge Caravan while they watch silly cartoons in the back seat on the built in TV\DVD player while shoveling snacks into their mouths, is abuse.
Telling your kid to walk a block or two, is the farthest thing from abuse that could possibly exist.
In fact, its the opposite.
It teaches character.
It teaches self reliance.
It teaches responsibility.
And, it is good for them, physically.
😐
It is mind numbingly apparent, that this society has become so utterly fat and lazy, and so utterly spoiled, that that which is clearly beneficial to a child is now labeled as abuse.
The guy told his kid to walk a block or two.
Something he should have told the lazy little runt.
There is absolutely nothing in doing so that makes him a jerk, or worse, abusive.
He was doing what fathers do every single day.
The only problem here is a bunch of busy bodies namsy pansy lazy schmucks with cell phones decided to tear his family apart, and ruin their lives.
And by the way Mike, raising little girls, is a far cry from raising little boys.
The two experiences are poles apart, and when your boys nuts start to drop, you’ll know something about why little boys are different than little girls.
Mike Spindell said…
With that commitment comes the problem of how to handle misbehavior. It doesn’t take anger, punishment, or even raising ones voice to control a child’s behavior.
This new mentality, is why we have kids blowing away other kids in schools all across the country.
Its why the kids working at the retail and food places we frequent, stand around ignoring us, and yakking on cell phones.
Its why, our kids today, are awash in a sea of apathy and self entitlement.
Its why we can no longer control them.
Because namsy pansy doctrines like “not getting angry” are sold cheaply, as common sense.
😐
It does little junior no harm, to know that doing bad things, will incur pops anger, because in life, doing bad things to others, just might incur their anger as well.
And its best little junior know that, prior to leaving the comfort of his modern day E-nest.
Mike Spindell said..
My 6′2″, 220 lb. father used to slap me in the face as his corporal punishment if I misbehaved
My father was also 6’2, and right around 220. He was the “runt” of the litter.
But he never “slapped” me in the face.
😐
He preferred to call it, a “rap in the snout”.
“clubbed upside the head” was another favorite.
😐
Odd, somehow he never had to do it often. After once or twice, I just seemed to get the message.
In fact, I still relive the horror almost daily, as traumatic memories of that twisted, sick abuse, compells me to take walks around the block, for of all things, pleasure.
Clearly my judgement is forever warped by the horrific memories of my abuse as a child, actually deluding me into thinking these walks are now pleasurable.
No doubt due to some sort of victim psychosis brought on by repeated abuse as I was compelled to walk to and from school by parents too cruel to care.
Thus, I now live out in eternal ritual the abuse once suffered as a child, as I stroll seemingly content, around my own neighborhood. I even on occasion catch myself whistling, as if seemingly unaware of the trauma I am reliving.
😐
I am haunted by the shame.
CroMM,
While I agree almost totally with your last two posts, I do believe the father was a jerk. If one is a competent parent of an 11 year old, you should not lose control. In your story about running away at 12, your Mom didn’t lose control. She turned your actions into an object lesson that taught you something.
My 6’2″, 220 lb. father used to slap me in the face as his corporal punishment if I misbehaved. While this was par for the course in the era in which I grew up, I vowed as a child to never forget what it felt like. This experience was part of why I worked in Child Welfare. As a father of two girls I committed myself to never using corporal punishment.
With that commitment comes the problem of how to handle misbehavior. It doesn’t take anger, punishment, or even raising ones voice to control a child’s behavior. It takes the realization that you’re the adult and you’re supervising a child. You’ve got the edge in knowledge/experience and you use that edge, plus a loving firmness and a fair consistency to ensure they behave properly.
Then too you have to know when to pick your battles. A parent does not have to control all aspects of a child’s life. My wife and I might tell our girls that a school outfit was mismatched as a point of information, but ultimately it was their choice without further protests from us. A parent’s job is to keep their children safe and hopefully to help teach them how to live properly in this world. A parent’s job is NOT to turn out clones, or to use children to live through vicariously.
When I was a kid, we walked just under a mile, up and down steep hills, every day, back and forth to school. This is when I was 6, and living just outside of South East DC.
Every day, rain or shine, we’d grab our books, musical intstruments (yes, I played, poorly, for a while) and headed off for a walk that apparently by todays standards, at least those in Watuga Texas, constituted child abuse.
And this is “abuse” went on for 5 years, until we moved out of the District area and into a more rural community.
So for 5 years, from the time I was 6 until I reached 11 years of age, I was apparently “abused” by my parents daily, by incurring on me and my siblings the sick and demented act of making us “walk”.
Imagine.
Being forced to use our legs.
😐
What a horror.