Many of us have been alarmed by the obvious effort of the Obama staff to avoid any investigation of confirmed war crimes by the Bush Administration in the torture program. Obama and Attorney General nominee Eric Holder have been suggesting that a war crime investigation would be “uncivil” and “looking backwards.” It has not gone over well since torture is a crime under eight treaties and statutes. Now, General Michael V. Hayden claims that Obama secretly promised him that there would be no war crimes investigation or prosecution in a meeting in Chicago.
Hayden’s role in this growing controversy is particularly distressing for civil libertarians. Not only does it confirm signals coming from the Obama camp since the election, but Hayden has been a particularly dark figure in the unlawful surveillance and torture programs, including statements that have been criticized as knowingly misleading or outright false.
Hayden had a closed door meeting with Obama last month in Chicago. He said Obama made it clear that the Bush Administration and CIA staff have nothing to worry about. “He’s looking forward,” Hayden said, “and that’s very appropriate.” If true, it would be confirmation of a bait-and-switch by the democrats. For years, the Democrats insisted that they could not act on torture until they controlled Congress. Once they were given both houses of Congress, Democrats insisted that they could not do anything without control of the White House. When they won the White House, the Democrats insisted that there was not enough time before Inauguration. Now, they are insisting that they must “look to the future: and notably not to the war crimes in the immediate past.
Democrats believe that they have nothing to gain personally and politically from prosecuting war crimes. They have been trying to sell people on yet another meaningless commission as a substitute for prosecution.
Not surprisingly, Obama aides are denying the story, here.
Of course, there is a very easy way to dispel any such rumors. Obama simply needs to say that any war crimes will be investigated and, if evidence if found of such crimes, prosecuted. That is what it means when Obama and Holder repeatedly say “no one is above the law.” The fact that they have struggled to simply commit themselves to enforce the law is highly worrisome and only serves to confirm the Hayden story.
For the full story, click here.
Clinger,
I don’t presume to tell you what you’ve done and how you feel, don’t tell me what I’ve done or how I feel. I treat you as an individual, please return the favor. You see, I am an individual, not a faceless clone of some primordial “liberal.” I’m not even a Democrat. I don’t think it’s o.k. to lie to grand jury, or to hide bribes in your freezer. So take your baseless assumptions elsewhere, and speak to me as a person, not an ideology.
Corruption knows no party, neither should justice. I call for the rule of law to be upheld, no matter who the criminal may be. Will you do the same? Or will you continue to evade the issue?
Gyges
You haven’t held the Dems accountable, won’t, never have and never will.. It is OK to lie to a grand jury or keep bucks in the freezer to name a couple tolerances… This has been the Dem forte since Vietnam, actionable words equal action. For more than a decade the Dems pontificated about WMD in Iraq and Saddam should go because of that threat. They believed that and after more than 17 violations of UN sanctions someone chose action rather than just actionable words and has thus been condemned and now the UN is the Dem preferred method dictate our taxes, actions, and policies.
What I expect is an informed public that opens a book, reads, considers, and knows that what it considers may or could be wrong. But not even a blind pig could find that kinda acorn in this crowd.
Politics, moreover, is the womb in which war develops-where its outlines already exist in their hidden rudimentary form, like the characteristics of living creature in their embryos. Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
And on your last comment of action and books. Read the books, do the action, and through the actions learn and understand what pitfalls theory yields.
“Understanding the desire to distinguish oneself as essentially political because the goods of this world, even the intellectual joys of understanding never give total satisfaction or repose. He said “Theory itself is a sort of activity fraught with restiveness, and as such not surely superior to action.”” Alexis De Tocqueville
Gyges:
Just one of his many ironies. How are you enjoying the ceremony? Man, Aretha’s still got it!!!
Mespo,
I just think it’s funny that while advocating the necessity of physical experience over pure reason Clinger demanded that we go read some books.
Clinger:
Military types always seem to think that war is some unique human condition divorced from politics –it isn’t. They also think that expertise in war somehow qualifies them to opine about the human interaction within a society during those lulls between wars known as peace. Clearly a case of an expert claiming expertise on a topic he knows little about. History is strewn with the carcasses of flag rank military leaders who failed miserably as peacetime leaders: Grant, Johnson, Garfield — just in our own country. That is why our Constitution embodies civilian control of our “dogs of war.”
And your derisive commentary about our Greco-Roman underpinngs suggest it is you who desperately needs a history book. Von Clauswitzs’ philosophy held sway in Prussia just long enough to usher in the rise of Kaiser Wilhelm’s agressive and impulsive foreign policy. This in turn led to Germany’s ultimate disgrace in WW1. Not exactly bragging material for our favorite major-general who had already mercifully exited the scene before the flowering of the bellicose germanic culture his works fertilized. Opining on the number of teeth in a horse’s mouth never catapulted a planet into two world wars with the loss of millions of lives, as the “brilliant” von Clauswitz’s philosophy of total war clearly did.
Finally, lest you think the idea that war is mere extension of national policy is the product of that “soft” Greco-Roman philosophy, you should know I learned that little notion from your guiding beacon who famously said: “War is nothing more than the continuation of politics by other means.” Well I guess a blind pig finds an acorn every now and again.
“…apologist as you…”
Clinger,
Are you saying that no decision by a commander should ever be questioned in retrospect? Or do you just pull those quotes out for people who you agree with politically?
Personally I’d love to see everyone held accountable for their actions. Especially people I agree with. The idea that everyone that voted for our (soon to be) President is a partisan Democrat hack is laughable. I know that many of us will be as harsh in our judgment of President Obama as we were of President Bush. If someone breaks the law, they should be held accountable. That applies equally to the commanders on the field and the politicians back home.
I’ll make a deal with you, I’ll agree to hold the Democrats to the same standards as the GOP, if you do agree to do the reverse. Or are you just as much of the partisan apologist that you seem to think those who disagree with you are?
mespo727272 & mespo or whomever it applies
Carl Von Clausewitz “On War” is still a book those who have assumed the responsibility of war study as well as a more recent consideration the “Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice,” David Galula. I’m told this is alleged to be the book Gen Petraeus used in part for his current successful methods. I offer this information well aware that unfortunately too many of these posts remind me of a story Peter Lynch told. “The early Greek philosophers were such pompous asses and thus so consumed with themselves that they believed with their self assumed superior intellect they could sit around and debate for a few days and determine the number of teeth in a horse’s mouth without ever opening its mouth.”
Do some study or go to war and then slam Clausewitz or Galula or anyone who has had the responsibility for conducting war.
“Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: war is such a dangerous business that the mistakes which come from kindness are the very worst.” Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
That quote by the way is not one Galula endorses. But I’m sure these contrarian posts can sit around and debate for just a few sec/minutes and intuitively determine the conduct of war without ever opening a book on war and its methods.
mespo,
You took the words right out of my mouth. Statesmanship advice from von Clausewitz is a lot like taking cooking tips from Hannibal Lechter. Except I’d take the cooking tips more seriously as they would be the better advice.
Clinger:
I had no idea that Carl Von Clausewitz, the product of a dictatorial, militaristic, fundamentally religious culture, had been granted divinity status in our democracy. Perhaps we should take all of his ideas to heart in our political system –like mandatory conscription, absolute warfare without regard to destruction of civilian targets,and complete lack of anything resembling respect for the will of the people or the law. “Read it and weep”–more like read it and laugh.
Why do the trolls get so upset when you point out the FACT that Bush committed treason? Both in word and action? And by definition?
The truth hurts, I reckon.
Enjoy being written about in history books, Bush Supporters.
Right next to Nero, the Nazis and the Khemer Rouge.
Come on, shout and copy and paste some more. Quantity is never a substitute for quality. Obfuscation and denial don’t work in the information age. Make yourself just as credible as the evil fascist bastards you follow. It’s funny. Perhaps I should clarify. It’s funny that you’re that stupid.
FFLEO,
Your comment about Hayden having a Bronze Star is interesting. Does anyone know of a site that reviews or allows you to double check on the medals that people claim? For a liar like Hayden, I wouldn’t be surprised if he never earned that Bronze Star. I hope I am wrong, but I will have to check into that.
As Stephen Colbert said to David Gregory last week, “Shouldn’t the supposed crimes of the Bush administration be paid for by Barack Obama?”
No mistakes permitted by the Dems or Obama… They have defined the standard that they know it all and can see the future…
From someone who knew the science/art of war, Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
…. Read it and weep.. The Dems will be held as accountable as those they endeavor to currently hold accountable…
“If the critic wishes to distribute praise or blame, he must certainly try to put himself exactly in the position of the commander; in other words, he must assemble everything the commander knew and all the motives that affected his decision, and ignore all that he could not no or did not know, especially the outcome. An event can never look to the analysis as it to the participant. The critic will always lack much that was present in the mind of the commander. But it is even more difficult for the critic to shut off his superfluous knowledge.” Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
“In the study of means, the critic must naturally frequently refer to military history, for in the art of war experience counts more than any amount of abstract truths. Historical proof is subject to conditions of its own.” Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
“A critic should never use the results of a theory as law and standard, but only – as a soldier does as aids to judgment.” Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
“Uncertainty of all information – The general unreliability of all information presents a special problem in war: all action takes place, so to speak, in a kind of twilight, which, like fog or moonlight, often tends to make things seem grotesque and larger that they really are.
Whatever is hidden from full view in this feeble light has to be guessed at by talent, or simply left to chance. So once again for lack of objective knowledge one has to trust to talent or to luck.” Carl Von Clausewitz “On War”
Perhaps JT could do us all a favor and ban username registrations containing the word ‘msnbc’?
LOL! If Bush was to start pardoning anyone connected with so called “torture”…….
HE WOULD HAVE TO START WITH JAY ROCKEFELLER, NANCY PELOSI, AND EVERY OTHER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR & REPRESENTATIVE THAT HAD DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE US WAS DOING TO GET INFORMATION FROM DETAINEES!
You fools here don’t think beyond the end of your noses! Do you really REALLY think that Bush would be so dumb as to not realize that the wacko left would DEMAND a new administration “investigate” his crimes and WOULD NOT BY HIMSELF INSURANCE BY KEEPING EVERY DEMOCRATIC LEADER IN CONGRESS FULLY INFORMED AND IN THE LOOP!!!!
LOL! If Bush was to start pardoning anyone connected with so called “torture”…….
HE WOULD HAVE TO START WITH JAY ROCKEFELLER, NANCY PELOSI, AND EVERY OTHER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR & REPRESENTATIVE THAT HAD DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE US WAS DOING TO GET INFORMATION FROM DETAINEES!
You fools here don’t think beyond the end of your noses! Do you really REALLY think that Bush would be so dumb as to not realize that the wacko left would DEMAND a new administration “investigate” his crimes and WOULD NOT BY HIMSELF INSURANCE BY KEEPING EVERY DEMOCRATIC LEADER IN CONGRESS FULLY INFORMED AND IN THE LOOP!!!!
LOL! If Bush was to start pardoning anyone connected with so called “torture”…….
HE WOULD HAVE TO START WITH JAY ROCKEFELLER, NANCY PELOSI, AND EVERY OTHER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR & REPRESENTATIVE THAT HAD DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE US WAS DOING TO GET INFORMATION FROM DETAINEES!
You fools here don’t think beyond the end of your noses! Do you really REALLY think that Bush would be so dumb as to not realize that the wacko left would DEMAND a new administration “investigate” his crimes and WOULD NOT BY HIMSELF INSURANCE BY KEEPING EVERY DEMOCRATIC LEADER IN CONGRESS FULLY INFORMED AND IN THE LOOP!!!!
FFLEO,
I respectfully disagree. Hayden knows the law as does Addington as does Cheney as does Yoo etc. They are all just trying to circumvent the law by making things up out of whole cloth should that be necessary (which it was, and they did!).
Essentially you have to pick which person, both of whom have lied in the past, is telling the truth now. Both Hayden and Obama have lied. Both Hayden and Obama have told the truth. Obama has been in this situation before, ie: telling Canada he didn’t mean what he was saying during the campaign about NAFTA, but had to say it to win votes. The same applied to the Palestinians–he had to play up support for Israel to get elected. In each of these cases, after the private conversation became public, Obama claimed he never said those things. This incident is precisely parallel. Without hearing the tape (which I’m certain exists) we have to look at other evidence to deduce who is not lying this time. We then return to these facts: 1. this situation has happened before, 2. the private statement matches the public statement which was given prior to the leak and 3. as JT points out, Obama could just come forward to clarify he means to prosecute. What I don’t think is reasonable is to believe Obama would never, could never, has never lie(d). The evidence points to Obama lying in this case. He may be lying for the reasons that rafflaw and Mike Spinell and others point to but it seems logical to assume he is lying.
Another thing to ponder is why Hayden told the truth about the govt. waterboarding KSM. He didn’t tell the truth because he’s a good guy, but he did tell the truth.
FFLeo:
“noticed that as an Air Force general that he did not have a ‘pilot’s wings’ medal on his uniform, although he had a big chest full of many colorful medal ribbons—known in military slang as “chest candy.”
**********
My uncle, a decorated Korean War vet who served honorably in combat, told me once as I was admiring the medals that he had long since locked away, that the most important medals are the one’s you silently award to yourself. I didn’t know what he meant by that then when I was age 14, but I do know what he meant now.
I must say that I was taken aback when I learned a few days ago how ignorant NSA and CIA Director Hayden was regarding his interpretation of the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. As a retired career federal civil servant and as a former military serviceman, I place substantive weight on a person’s military and academic accomplishments, medals, and the awards received as a federal employee, when I consider character, integrity, and fitness for a public service job.
I began wondering how such an accomplished Air Force 4-star general could have had the 4th Amendment faux pas that occurred with Hayden. When I read his biography and saw his official photo, I noticed that as an Air Force general that he did not have a ‘pilot’s wings’ medal on his uniform, although he had a big chest full of many colorful medal ribbons—known in military slang as “chest candy”. Surprisingly, General Hayden even owns a Bronze Star and I wonder how in the world he received that prestigious medal as a career “intelligence” officer. From an NPR interview, I learned that General Hayden never ‘won his wings’ and therefore he was not “rated” as an Air Force aviator, which is highly unusual for Air Force generals of any rank, regardless of their number of stars. Perhaps he had bad eyesight or other physical or mental disqualifications.
Searching for explanations of how a seemingly intelligent and accomplished person such as an AF 4-star general—based on education, accomplishments, experience, dedication, etc.—could make such errors in rudimentary civics while serving as the USA’s ‘Chief Spy’, I gave General Hayden the benefit of the doubt because I assumed he was much more ‘credentialed’ than he was. Naively, I still largely assumed that high achievement and credentials equal honesty and integrity.
Regarding the National Intelligence Estimate document, regarding WMDs, NSA Director Hayden voted “YES” on the validity of the intelligence. (see 2nd Olbermann video link below) Referencing military slang again, military intelligence is known as the greatest oxymoron of all; now very similar to “Bush intelligence” and the CIA intelligence that falsely, and most likely criminally, led us into this wrong-headed and disastrous Iraq War and “justified” the associated illegal wiretapping of U.S. citizens—the latter for which General Hayden was principally responsible.
I suppose I will forever be biased in my—at least initial—assumption or assessment of any person’s character based on statuses of medals, honors, especially summa-cum-laude, stations in life, and other innumerable awards or honors. I am slowly learning now that a person’s direct actions far outweigh all of the material accolades, some of which are acquired through pompous circumstance and based on political or religious ideologies rather than through actual merit and founded on high principles.
Clearly, every citizen must meet—and preferably exceed—the established standards of any profession and we should strive to accomplish the highest academic and employment level possible; however, those achievements will not guarantee an acquisition of integrity along the way nor necessarily build the strong character essential for furthering the cause of democracy. The most important lesson I learned through 8 years of the Bush Administration is that the highest credentials bestowed on a person are worthless when possessed or worn by ideologues and demagogues.
Here is the video from an Olbermann segment of General Hayden regarding the 4th Amendment question of probable cause
youtube.com/watch?v=cGhcECnWRGM
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Here is General Hayden stating that he and others got the WMD “intelligence” wrong. Once you reach the site from the hyperlink, you must type “Hayden” in the SEARCH box at the bottom of the menu bar on left side of the page. You will then click on, “Hayden: We Got Iraq WMD Report Wrong”:
msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#23867579
________________
George Bush is a TRAITOR. The Constitutional definition of treason is providing material aid or comfort to enemies of the United States during war time. By protecting the Saudis, the actual perpetrators of 9/11 and his Daddy’s business partners, he committed treason.
That’s just his first offense.
It gets worse.
Shall I or any of the other more knowledgeable people here slam you down some more, you Neocon Copy/Paste Nazi? Because that’s all that will happen. You’ll moo some more and paste some spam and then get promptly sat back on your ass like all the other trolls you pretend to be.
Keep it up. It provides us with fuel to further demonstrate why you and your kind should be politically neutered. And that will be the final result – the political castration of Neocons. Your boys (and YOU) will be paying a price. So give up your guilty before the rest of us come searching for you house by house.
That’s not a threat. I’m just predicting the future. It’s your lot that’s making it come true.
I intend to enjoy that part of the show.