Loaded in Arizona: New Law Allows Guns in Bars

thumb_weapon_gun_smith_and_wesson_hand_ejector180px-PintJugArizonans are now allowed to carry concealed weapons into bars. Gov. Jan Brewer signed the law on Monday to guarantee the right to be fully loaded in bars.

The law would still bar drinking while carrying a weapon and would allow restaurants and bars to prohibit the practice if they properly post warnings. Some may not be content with just being armed without their flaming shot or Schnapps shooter. Forty states have such laws.

Bar owners are not thrilled. Mike Nelson, owners of Pomeroy’s bar in Phoenix, said “This might be one of the stupidest things that I have heard of.”

Gun owners recently celebrated the right to bear arms in churches and work places in Texas and Arkansas (here).

For the story, click here.

87 thoughts on “Loaded in Arizona: New Law Allows Guns in Bars”

  1. My home was broken into a few months ago and without going into details I will say this experience had a profound effect on me. I had a lot of trouble sleeping and felt extremely helpless in my own home. I can tell you that I started sleeping much better once I purchased a firearm, and while i know it is no guarantee that it will keep me safe, the peace of mind is has helped a lot.

  2. Gyges-

    Are you going to stand by the idea that cops don’t use their guns for the safety of themselves and citizens?

  3. JW,

    If you look at my first response to you, I give you a way of starting to establish that the presence of guns makes people less likely to be victims of violent crimes, or alternately that they’re less likely to be harmed by violent crimes. That’s why I suggested it as a starting place.

    The universe is full of phenomena that don’t behave like humans expect, some that involve human interactions. Rather than force the data to fit the theory, I force the theory to fit the data. That however involves actually having data. So you make a claim to me, I ask for proof, not explanation. In this case, that people in with guns are statistically more likely to survive (either by avoidance or by a difference in the way the encounter plays out) violent crimes. There should be other ways, but that’s where I’d start.

    Words have meanings. A gun is a weapon, it fits the definition perfectly. It’s actually used as an example of Weapon in the two or three online dictionaries that pop up first when you Google “weapon definition” You can use a weapon defensively (although with a gun the defense is limited to offense, it’s not like a club that can be used to block other weapons) but that doesn’t mean they are something other then a weapon. The only reason cops carry a gun is for use “to injure, defeat, or destroy” (Merriam-webster). Therefor, cops carry guns as weapons, the reason they wish “to injure, defeat, etc.” is irrelevant to the guns status as a weapon.

  4. Gyges-

    “Now if you have something other then the DGU reports to prove that guns make individuals (and thereby society in general, because individuals make up society) safer, I stand ready to have a discussion.”

    Ok, so now that we’ve taken the DGU studies out of the equation, are you actually claiming that not a single person has saved their own life by using a gun? Or are you going to stick with the preposterous notion that because we can’t see into an alternate universe and know what *would* have happened had the victim not defended themselves, that zero lives have been saved?

    “As an aside, Police carry guns as a weapon.”

    Forgive me, but it’s difficult to believe that you are being sincere when you say things like this. It’s a weapon that is being used to do what? To protect the SAFETY of the LEO and/or the public. When used lawfully, it is because the LEO believes that he or someone else’s life is at risk. I’d call that protecting their safety.

    GWLawSchoolMom-

    “studies. I have some faith in them, but I tend to put my belief into facts based on real life events.”

    This is horrifying and something I would expect from a fundamentalist Christian trying to gut a science curriculum. I’m not telling you that every study is correct, far from it. Each study needs to be judged on its own merit and often they have none. But you can’t generalize onto society based on your tiny corner of the world. It also means that your view can be summarily dismissed if a person had an experience opposite yours. Of course, our experience informs all of our decisions, but this is something different.

    GWLawSchoolMom-

    “I think my horizon is pretty wide. how many of your siblings have been held at gunpoint.?”

    And this is what I mean. My uncle has been held at gunpoint. I had one friend who was shot to death and an acquaintance who was stabbed to death in her apartment. Another relative had an experience remarkably similar to your sister’s, though had it not been for a rescue, he would have killed her. Over the span of my life, my home has been burglarized twice.

    I’ve seen all of this and my conclusion is opposite yours. Neither of our personal stories alone should be sufficient for anyone to decide where they are on this issue. It certainly wasn’t for me, because I used to be pro-gun control.

  5. IS writes: put simply how would you feel if someone wanted you to stop your hobby and took away your fabrics? You can make rope and rope is used to kill people. So therefore we should outlaw rope and confiscate spinning wheels because some people are going to use rope to kill people.

    Does that spinning wheel make you better in bed or better looking or taller? Probably not, and it is the same for gun owners.

    me: while I’m sure that there must be some record on the number of assaults connected to knitting needles, I’ve generally found knitting and spinning to be pretty safe. Not too many spinning wheel accidents cause death.maybe some wrecked yarn, but no deaths.
    I make yarn. it’s rather thin, delicate stuff and I have no interest in making rope. you can buy perfectly good rope at any hardware store. and while someone may use rope in the commission of a violent crime it is generally after a gun has been pulled. I don’t know of any criminals who have walked into someone’s home or business, without a weapon and have been able to convince the homeowner to sit down and allow themselves to be tied up unless there is a gun at their heads. you?

    spinning does make me better looking. I’m already very good in bed.

  6. IS writes: first of all from the studies I have seen, concealed carry and just plain carry typically leads to lower crime rates. There is plenty of info on the web in many different forms. Most firearms accidents happen because people do not respect a weapon, I have been around some people that were very lackadaisical about shooting discipline and I left the area. I did not inquire as to their party affiliation.

    me: studies. I have some faith in them, but I tend to put my belief into facts based on real life events. my sister is an interesting woman, not the smartest in her class, even by half. she’s creative and original in many ways and doesn’t have the best taste in men. one evening, her ex broke into her house and with a legally purchased handgun and no background of violent behavior, tied her up and held the gun to her head. he terrorized her for over 10 hours and left, of his own accord around 8:30 in the morning. he knew her kids would be coming home from their father’s house around 9. she had no warning.
    I don’t care who has discipline and who does not. I don’t care who has gun education or respect for guns. I just don’t care.

    all I can compare this to is the fact that many other countries have strict gun laws and gun ownership and gun violence is really uncommon. why are we content to put up with any gun violence? I just don’t get this.

    IS: As far as rednecks and firearms are concerned you are quite naive, firearms have been the toast of kings and heads of state for hundreds of years and to have a nice set of pistols or shotguns made for your body is a real pleasure. Had Obama had any class at all he would have given the Prime Minister a matched set of french dueling pistols or a fine shotgun.

    me: yeah the redneck thing was unfortunate on my part. the guy who held a gun to my sister’s head was from Massachusetts. but I don’t think I’m naive. I also don’t care who is given a gun or from whence it came or how valuable it might be. I just don’t like guns.

    IS: I hope this helps widen your horizon.

    me: I think my horizon is pretty wide. how many of your siblings have been held at gunpoint.?

  7. Jim,

    I’ll accept that, but it still doesn’t make it a “Safety device.”

  8. “As an aside, Police carry guns as a weapon.”

    Police carry guns as a defensive weapon. (or at least that is supposed to be the reason)

  9. JW,

    I have no control over what you use as evidence or don’t use. What I have control over is what I consider credible evidence. I happen to think that the most commonly cited DGU studies are flawed and therefor by themselves unconvincing. You’re assuming a reason for rejecting them as evidence that just isn’t there.

    I’ll tell you why the supposed reason for my rejecting those studies falls flat (I was also trying to avoid having to explain this again, this isn’t the first time I’ve had this discussion): Even if the number of DGUs is higher than the gun related deaths you list (which isn’t exhaustive of gun related deaths) it doesn’t prove that having a gun made anyone safer than they would be not having a gun. It’s like saying that more bicycles helmets were worn in accidents then there were bicycle helmet related deaths.

    Now if you have something other then the DGU reports to prove that guns make individuals (and thereby society in general, because individuals make up society) safer, I stand ready to have a discussion. If not, I truly enjoyed talking to you, I always re-evaluate my arguments every time I make them, so it’s nice to be forced to do that occasionally.

    As an aside, Police carry guns as a weapon.

  10. Gyges-

    “I hate it when people make me explain this sort of thing. A claim hidden in comparisons is still a claim.”

    First you claim that I think CCW makes SOCIETY safer. The evidence for this is currently mixed at best. I think the pro-gun side is overselling this point. An Ohio university, forgive me, I can’t remember which, did a meta study on the subject and came to a conclusion that makes perfect sense to me: concealed carry is basically a wash. It makes sense because of two reasons: 1) There aren’t enough CCs relative to the number of criminals. 2) Media coverage, particularly nationally, of defensive gun uses, is almost non-existent. For that matter, if you listen to people like Dianne Sawyer, it is virtually impossible for any regular citizen to so much as hold a gun without killing themselves, forget self defense.

    Gyges-

    “That part where you compare a gun to a seat-belt, and a fire alarm is pretty clearly indicating that you think guns are in the same category as them.”

    Since I never made the claim that society as a whole is *currently* benefiting from concealed carry (nor is it being harmed), I can only claim a (potential) benefit for those that carry. I suppose I could claim a societal benefit by saying that at least hundreds of thousands of people defend themselves every year, but you don’t recognize those.

    “The only category I can think of that applies is things that make people safer. So I ask, why should it be in that category?”

    Now you seem back to individual people, but you won’t let me cite the thousands of specific cases that I can cite, or the dozen or so peer reviewed studies on the subject, the most conservative of which put defensive gun uses far above the total number of gun deaths from crime, suicide, and accidents.

    “I was just saving us time by saying why I don’t consider the DGU statistics good evidence.”

    It’s not uncommon for people to disagree with some or most of the studies in a given area of research. Obviously, the people doing the research disagree, as the numbers they’ve come to are very far apart. What you can’t stand is that even the lowest of them puts the number over the total of criminal gun deaths. So your solution is that they must ALL be wrong.

    “If you find that unreasonable, and can’t figure out other ways of showing that guns make a society safer, then I guess we don’t really have anything else to discuss. I do think that if guns really are a good safety device it should be evident in more than one way.”

    The two ways that guns can “make society safer”, at least that I can think of, are deterrence and actual use. As I said, I don’t think the evidence is there yet for deterrence. As more people carry, that could change. I think the evidence for defensive gun uses is overwhelming.

    Why do police carry guns? Could it be for their safety? Obviously they have utility as a “safety device”.

    GWLSM-

    “I just don’t get it. sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around stuff that other people just get. I read. I listen to the tv news machine and I know that everyday there is gun related crime.”

    This is true, and it’s sad. But also every day, people defend themselves with firearms. Those stories are less newsworthy, often because they aren’t even reported because no shots were fired.

    “people die in gun related crime. maybe that isnt rational.”

    That you would even consider that your opinion *might* not be entirely rational makes you more intellectually honest than most people.

    “I don’t think I’d feel safer if I had a gun. I can’t tell you why, I just don’t.”

    And that’s ok. I can tell you that there are lots of people who felt the same way but who were exposed to firearms in a safe and comfortable environment and ended up enjoying it.

    I’m only half kidding when I say I’m more terrified of hot glue guns than of firearms. My pistol can’t hurt me unless I do lots of really stupid things. On the other hand, I can’t seem to get within five feet of a hot glue gun without getting third degree burns. If Satan existed, he’d be into crafts and he’d have a hot glue gun in a holster.

  11. Gyges:

    thank you, I know GWLSM thanks you too and so bad juju could be bad whiskey and its magical after effect.

  12. IS,

    Juju is from west Africa, it’s a magic item, or the magic effects of the item.

  13. gyges writes: o to sum it up, you don’t need to research what you’re saying because you KNOW you’re right? If you want to have a rational discussion on a topic, it’s best to base your reasoning on evidence not faith. If you want to give a great sermon, well then faith is the way to go. Personally I’ve been preached to enough in my life, so you’ll forgive me if I walk out of this big tent revival.

    Not every gun owner wants a grenade launcher, and not every gun control advocate wants guns banned. We’ll be much closer to finding a happy middle ground when both sides realize that.

    me: I just don’t get it. sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around stuff that other people just get. I read. I listen to the tv news machine and I know that everyday there is gun related crime. people die in gun related crime. maybe that isnt rational. and maybe I know I’m right because I know I’m right about it for me. I never intended to preach, I just don’t understand why guns are so important.
    I don’t think I’d feel safer if I had a gun. I can’t tell you why, I just don’t.

  14. JW,

    I hate it when people make me explain this sort of thing. A claim hidden in comparisons is still a claim. That part where you compare a gun to a seat-belt, and a fire alarm is pretty clearly indicating that you think guns are in the same category as them. The only category I can think of that applies is things that make people safer. So I ask, why should it be in that category?

    I was just saving us time by saying why I don’t consider the DGU statistics good evidence. If you find that unreasonable, and can’t figure out other ways of showing that guns make a society safer, then I guess we don’t really have anything else to discuss. I do think that if guns really are a good safety device it should be evident in more than one way.

  15. GWLSM:

    “” gun owners are more attached to their weapons than little kids are attached to their puppies. why? what exactly does a gun do for you? make you feel more of a man? more in love with humanity? more tolerant? better looking? taller? better in bed?””

    put simply how would you feel if someone wanted you to stop your hobby and took away your fabrics? You can make rope and rope is used to kill people. So therefore we should outlaw rope and confiscate spinning wheels because some people are going to use rope to kill people.

    Does that spinning wheel make you better in bed or better looking or taller? Probably not, and it is the same for gun owners.

  16. Mike S.,

    I think you misunderstood the intent of my comment. I concur with your reasons to not own or possess a gun. I also know that you, like many others, without a gun, are willing to defend others.

    “Now where your point gets annoying to me is your assumption that only those carrying handguns, aren’t good at protecting others.”

    I think you intended to say that my assumption is that only “those carrying guns are good at protecting others. -That is not my intent. My intent is to demonstrate that those people, by being willing to use that gun in defense of others, are putting themselves in harms way. -I find that to be honorable.

    It’s the insinuation that people who own guns have a desire to kill someone that bothers me. -I, and those I know who do carry, don’t have a desire to harm anyone.

    “I’m not a hero, but I think you might see I’ve got a strong sense of duty to my fellow humans.”

    I definately do see that, and appreciate that very much. Most of us, even though we may have different points of view, have the same sense of duty.

    The best thing to do with any self-defense weapon is to avoid the need to use it. I completely agree that being too comfortable with your abilities is a mistake too often made.

  17. GWLSM:

    “besides. once she gets good at it,you will be first in line for amazing knitwear.”

    I am going to buy some sheep for her. Also I am not saying she is crazy but those people are really into knitting and fibres.

    I have an order in for a cashmere codpiece.

  18. GWLSM:

    “me: sez you. lets see how many likkered-up gun owners decide to go rambo after a few beers. time will tell.
    while we are waiting, what us bad juju? is that some redneck cocktail I haven’t heard of? why would anyone drink it?”

    First of all from the studies I have seen, concealed carry and just plain carry typically leads to lower crime rates. There is plenty of info on the web in many different forms. Most firearms accidents happen because people do not respect a weapon, I have been around some people that were very lackadaisical about shooting discipline and I left the area. I did not inquire as to their party affiliation.

    As for juju it is a catchall word as in bad juju, probably a derivative of some African word for bad medicine although I don’t really know but have heard it used most of my life. I could be spelling it wrong. So it would mean at least in connection with alcohol some sort of rot gut whiskey or gin or vodka that gives a bad hangover and makes your tongue white.

    As far as rednecks and firearms are concerned you are quite naive, firearms have been the toast of kings and heads of state for hundreds of years and to have a nice set of pistols or shotguns made for your body is a real pleasure. Had Obama had any class at all he would have given the Prime Minister a matched set of french dueling pistols or a fine shotgun.

    An expensive shotgun or rifle that is hand made can run into the tens of thousands of dollars and are exquisite works of art with the engraving and gold and silver inlay.

    I hope this helps widen your horizon.

  19. Gyges: O.k. your turn. If concealed weapons make a society safer, prove it.

    Where did I say that? Aside from that, 41 states are now shall issue or effectively shall issue. I would have no difficulty cherry picking low crime CC states and high crime no CC states.

    Gyges: (Anecdotes and hypotheticals don’t count as proof). I would ask that you avoid the studies on DGU (Defensive Gun Use),

    “Judge, my client is innocent of these charges and I will prove it in court. Bur first of all, I would ask that the prosecution avoid using evidence…”

    So I can’t even use the lowest estimate, which is in the hundreds of thousands?

    Gyges: there’s no clear consensus

    I agree there.

    Gyges: I’d suggest you look for something that compares violent crime rates in areas with concealed carry permits to analogous areas without.

    So I have to provide evidence for a claim I didn’t make, and in so doing, I can’t used peer reviewed research from the relevant fields. Sounds reasonable to me!

  20. Fortunately, the owners of most taverns and bordellos probihit firearms on the premises.

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