Submitted by: Mike Spindell, guest blogger
Many years now at this site there have been side debates raging about false identities, used by people who are being paid to disrupt our discussions by making comments aimed at sidetracking issues. OpEdNews, a site run by Rob Kall, which I subscribe to sends me daily updates of articles of interest. Yesterday I received this intriguing article from Thom Hartmann’s podcast. It is an interview with Lee Fong from ThinkProgress on just this subject. Check out this link and see what you think.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Caught-Fake-conservative-by-Thom-Hartmann-110820-341.html
Given my experience commenting here I think it is credible. The question is whether this is indeed happening here and what if anything can be done? I’m not sure how this should be handled, if true, at Professor Turley’s blog. This is because of his dedication to free speech and that same dedication held by most who comment here. The podcast is only four and a half minutes and I think well worth your time, but if you only read Hartmann’s short summary you’ll get the gist of it. Do you believe this is true and if you do what if anything should Professor Turley do about it?
Roco and Anon,
I suggest that you reread just exactly what I wrote, which was a mere presentation of an article and my belief that it’s factual. I asked for responses and made no recommendations how to treat it. That their are people paid to comment is I think proven. Is it illegal? No. Should this blog take any action against those suspected of it I left open to response. In my own view I’m for calling them out when it is suspected, but giving them equal rights to comment, unless the comments are disruptive, or threatening. I would have a very narrow definition of both. My post was more to the point of what people think about this practice, than to what should be done about it. I’m sorry both of you so misconstrued my words.
“There are certainly UNPAID and UNORGANIZED but very motivated left wing participants trolling right wing blogs. Just read the comments at Kos, FDL, TPM, FARK, to see this.”
The meaning of this sentence is that when you read Kos, FDL, TPM, TP, MoJo, Atrios, et. al., commenters admit all the time going over to right wing sites to troll. Left wing bloggers like those at Sadly No used to semi-regularly call for others to engage in comment fights at the blogs of their opponents.
Again, some evidence to show that the left would not engage in having paid trolls, when the real evidence clearly shows that the left does engage at the very least in organized unpaid trolling activities.
And also a discussion then, of why paid trolling is different and so much worse.
As I said, I am certain there are trolls, and even paid trolls — what I see is no reasoning as to why we should think the left wing would not have their own paid trolls.
1. The IWW brought us monkeywrenching.
2. Much as I dislike it however often the rightwing tosses in Saul Alinsky gratuitously as if Alinsky croutons made an argument of iceberg lettuce into a nutritious logical convincing argument meal, this is Alinsky’s wiki entry:
“According to Alinsky, the organizer — especially a paid organizer from outside — must first overcome suspicion and establish credibility. Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate. An organizer has to attack apathy and disturb the prevailing patterns of complacent community life where people have simply come to accept a situation. Alinsky would say, “The first step in community organization is community disorganization.”
Through a process combining hope and resentment, the organizer tries to create a “mass army” that brings in as many recruits as possible from local organizations, churches, services groups, labor unions, corner gangs, and individuals.
According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”[2]”
3. If you listen to the Terry Gross interview about ALEC, a lobbyist for the left can be heard talking about how ALEC organizes, guides, writes legislation for new congressman, and then says, that in many ways what ALEC is doing is admirable.
4. This is an excerpt from an article about labor organizing at Starbucks: “SWU members have engaged in a plethora of creative and provocative direct actions to win concessions from Starbucks. When a critical mass of Starbucks workers have formed a shop floor committee, workers (together with members from other stores and supporters) will march into the store at peak hours to give the boss a list of demands. Typically, the demands include a living wage, guaranteed work hours, appropriate staffing, respect, and an ergonomically sound environment. There may be militant picketing, and managers known to harass workers who are a minute late to work may find their pictures together with a list of their misdeeds on leaflets handed to customers. A favorite tactic (borrowed from the late Saul Alinsky) is for a group of unionists to enter the store at peak hours, buy drinks, and pay for them one penny at a time.” (http://www.pmpress.org/content/article.php/20080722202202555)
There are certainly UNPAID and UNORGANIZED but very motivated left wing participants trolling right wing blogs. Just read the comments at Kos, FDL, TPM, FARK, to see this. Why should we not think there are not organized, and not organized and paid leftwing trolls there?
Why should I think organized left wing “trolling” as shown above is limited to real world tactics, and only unpaid and unorganized on the net, and simply never paid and organized on the net?
Show me some evidence as to why this is a tactic only the right would use, and not the left?
And then again, WHY does this matter? How is paid right wing trolling at otherwise left wing sites important? What is its effect? Why should anyone care?
Also for 1/3rd of your grade, please discuss: Professor Jonathan Turley would prefer his site be a) known as a left wing site, b) known as a non-partisan site, c) known as a _____ site.
I always figure someone is only there to disrupt when they spew their skewed ‘facts’ but then are gone or reply with non sequiturs when asked to give proof of their positions via clicks/citations.
Nada,
I’m glad you read the piece. That’s why I provided a link to the article.
I am shocked to read that right wing bloggers are being paid to disrupt progressive sites! Who could imagine such a devious plan? Can you spell Koch?
Sigh, trolls have no sense of humor.
—-
Excellent work Elaine, as always.
Here’s a quote from your source “Wolfie”
“Khalid Sheik Mohammed is evil incarnate, and he must be dealt with in a way that will protect our citizens,”said Obama. “Therefore, I will bi-partisanly blow his brains out myself.”
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said the President thought long and hard about his decision.
“Being that Khalid Sheik Mohammed is not a human, shooting him in the head is not against the law,” said Gibbs.
Elaine M,
Look at your source “Wolfie”. Here are some of his other pieces of investigative journalism.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/williamkwolfrum/
When asked to provide evidence all you do is provide links to more stories. Do you think unsubstantiated stories, repeated enough times, become evidence? Advantage Consultants was and is a joke.
Unionized Right-wing Trolls (see Irony)
Nada,
Did I say the American Cancer Society and the Florida Bar were right-wing organizations? I’m sure Advantage Consultants provides a variety of services to many different clients.
Right-wing trolls strive to form labor union
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/williamkwolfrum/2009/11/right-wing-trolls-strive-to-fo.php
Excerpt:
TULSA, Okla — The blog poster known as “Slick Rick” was in a bad mood. A thin layer of Cheeto dust covered his desk and keyboard. He hadn’t bathed in days. His hands hurt from hours of trolling around progressive Web sites, desperately trying to engage left-leaning commentors to take his bait.
His most recent comment: “You know, if you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about,” in a post about the U.S. government’s eavesdropping programs had gotten very little response, aside from a snide “Go away, troll” at the site Firedoglake.
“You know,” said Slick Rick via Skype. “Being a troll used to mean something. These days, it’s just work, all day, every day.”
Slick Rick isn’t alone. A full year ahead of the 2008 U.S. elections, the demands on right-wing trolls are higher than ever. Between questioning what law Scooter Libby broke, to assailing the patriotism of any and all that would question the long-running war in Iraq, to trying to get Cindy Sheehan’s name into any discussion about anything, the average troll has a busy, if completely unfulfilling existence.
Which is part of the reason why a loosely formed coalition of right-wing trolls are trying to band together to form a labor union that they hope will help them receive health insurance, conduct collective bargaining or even set professional standards.
Organizers hope a trolls’ labor group the importance of their roles in candidates’ campaigns.
“There are progressive blogs everywhere and the GOP needs us to do whatever it takes to get their message scrambled,” said Jocko, a troll who spends most of his days and nights monitoring the site OliverWillis.com. “I don’t see Dick Cheney out there on the front lines like us, saying anything to stem the tide.”
For the trolls, however, while they are much-hated and considered an outright drain on democracy by many, there have been signs of hope. The company Advantage Consulting has actively worked with trolls, sending out legions of them to “astro-turf” subjects ranging from stem-cell research to health care and the economy.
For many trolls, however, more needs to be done.
“When you create as many straw men per day as I do, It’s exhausting,” said Toad the Wet Sprocket, a right-wing troll who alternates between the sites Crooks & Liars and the Spacey Gracey Review. “We expect communists like John Kerry to flip-flop on issues. But we need to unionize.”
Elaine,
Here’s a partial client list for Advantage Consultants:
Motorola Corporation
Boy Scouts of America
Girl Scouts of America
American Cancer Society
The Gathering/USA
Sheridan House
For Giving Foundation
Live the Dream Foundation
Sportsmen’s National Land Trust
Florida Hospice & Palliative Care
Mote Marine Laboratory
The Florida Bar
Friends of Florida’s Waterways
Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute
Adopt A Pet
Sons of Confederate Veterans, Florida Division
While it still does not provide any evidence that can demonstrate implimentation of paid blogging, it is kind of funny that the American Cancer Society and the Florida Bar would be considered to be “Right Wing”.
Isn’t Mike Appleton a member of the Florida Bar?
Are Right-Wing Libertarian Internet Trolls Getting Paid to Dumb Down Online Conversations?
There are daily attempts to control and influence content in the interests of the state and corporations: attempts in which money talks.
December 15, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/media/149197/are_right-wing_libertarian_internet_trolls_getting_paid_to_dumb_down_online_conversations?page=1
Excerpt:
So what’s going on? I’m not suggesting that most of the people trying to derail these discussions are paid to do so, though I would be surprised if none were. I’m suggesting that some of the efforts to prevent intelligence from blooming seem to be organized, and that neither website hosts nor other commenters know how to respond.
For his film (Astro)Turf Wars, Taki Oldham secretly recorded a training session organized by a rightwing libertarian group called American Majority. The trainer, Austin James, was instructing Tea Party members on how to “manipulate the medium”. This is what he told them:
“Here’s what I do. I get on Amazon; I type in “Liberal Books”. I go through and I say “one star, one star, one star”. The flipside is you go to a conservative/ libertarian whatever, go to their products and give them five stars. … This is where your kids get information: Rotten Tomatoes, Flixster. These are places where you can rate movies. So when you type in “Movies on Healthcare”, I don’t want Michael Moore’s to come up, so I always give it bad ratings. I spend about 30 minutes a day, just click, click, click, click. … If there’s a place to comment, a place to rate, a place to share information, you have to do it. That’s how you control the online dialogue and give our ideas a fighting chance.”
Over 75% of the funding for American Majority, which hosted this training session, comes from the Sam Adams Alliance. In 2008, the year in which American Majority was founded, 88% of the alliance’s money came from a single donation, of $3.7m(13). A group which trains rightwing libertarians to distort online democratic processes, in other words, was set up with funding from a person or company with a very large wallet.
The internet is a remarkable gift, which has granted us one of the greatest democratic opportunities since universal suffrage. We’re in danger of losing this global commons as it comes under assault from an army of trolls and flacks, many of them covertly organised or trained. The question for all of us – the Guardian, other websites, everyone who benefits from this resource – is what we intend to do about it. It’s time we fought back and reclaimed the internet for what it does best: exploring issues, testing ideas, opening the debate.
Company offers service to pose as liberals and assault progressive websites and blogs
http://accidentalpatriot.com/company-offers-service-to-pose-as-liberals-and-assault-progressive-websites-and-blogs/
*****
GOP Paying Trolls to “Blog Attack”
http://open.salon.com/blog/christopher_di_spirito/2009/08/10/gop_paying_trolls_to_blog_attack
Excerpt:
“Flood the zone?” “Blog warriors?” “Launch your attack?” “Blog warfare.” It certainly sounds to me like a well-orgainized rightwing has declared war on the reality-based community. So, you may be wondering, just who are these people? Who is Advantage Consultants? Turns out their president/leader is Doug Guetzloe, a right-wing radio host and anti-tax activist based in Florida.
Nada:
I would like to see that evidence as well.
rafflaw “I have only seen evidence of the Right paying bloggers to disrupt the discussion…”
If you have seen “evidence”, why don’t you share it with the group. As a licensed attorney, I’m sure you know the difference between evidence and an accusation.
Tootie:
Please send resume to andrew@breitbart.com.
A.
Commentator for hire.
Will do windows. (XP even).
References available on request. (Just ask Turley regulars, they already think I”m a professional disruptor/troll).
Send requests to: Lootie for Tootie @ Comments To Disrupt Leftist Pinheads With ADHD Inc.comm
The whole HB Gary/Chamber of Commerce thing broke in February and Mikes right about it including bloggers. One of the sites I visit regularly, The Brad Blog was targeted specifically along with other websites and Velvet Revolution, an activist site/organization Brad helped found.
There have also been job recruiting ads publicized for the right-wing disinfo/disruption campaigns. Pay depends not only on quantity but quality of posting. (I posted an article including the recruiting ad elsewhere on this blawg.) This is a big money business and there’s no downside- it doesn’t seem to be illegal.
Then there are the bots, disruptive little postings generated by false persona’s reliant on key-word searches. Follow Maggie Simi’s postings on this blawg, notice where they appear. I’m convinced that Maggie is an automated bot.
I’m also convinced that the hit and run potty-mouth posters that show up here are bots, either completely automated or paid one-hit-wonder trolls.
There’s one sure defense against bots, trolls and paid operatives, even if they write well and in that regard Nal is correct: “My mantra is to ignore the trolls, paid or otherwise. They can only disrupt if the other commenters allow it.”
My motto is: the scroll wheel is my friend.
It’s Not Important, 😉 chuckle, snort, chuckle
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8351