In California’s Rancho Corral de Tierra (part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area), a National Park Service Ranger reportedly shot Gary Hesterberg in the back with a taser after he walked away during a confrontation over walking his two lapdogs off leash. He was then arrested on suspicion of failing to obey a lawful order, having dogs off-leash and knowingly providing false information. The park service spokesperson reportedly said it is all part of teaching citizens about the new leash law in the area . . . or teaching Hesterberg to heel.
Witnesses objected that the force was excessive and said that the ranger refused to respond when confronted over the necessity or reason for the arrest.
The ranger says that Hesterberg gave a false name and then began to walk away from the ranger. Howard Levitt, a spokesman for the park service, added that he did not have identification on him. Levitt explained that the ranger “pursued him a little bit and she did deploy her [electric-shock weapon] . . . That did stop him.”
It is common for people to walk their dogs off leash in the area, but when the area was made part of the national park system in December, a new leash rule was imposed.
The article below says that Levitt explained that “the ranger was trying to educate residents of the rule.” Wow, if true, that is quite a lesson plan. Stop, explain, tase, and repeat.
The account of these witnesses not only raises serious questions of excessive force but also excessive charges that followed the alleged abuse. We have seen other cases of alleged abuse where citizens have been hit with an array of charges. This creates significant pressure for the accused to plead or remain silent. I do not see why a taser would be needed on such a minor offense.
Source: SF Gate
Kindly quit saying the guy got tasered for walking dogs — that’s a load of crap. Based on news accounts to date, here’s why it went this way: First, it’s got nothing to do with the effin’ dogs — the leash education part seems to have gone OK, as the dogs wound up leashed. The ranger has legal cause to get name, etc., for the record. >>> If the guy had not given a phony name, they would have been all done then, and you’d never hear a thing.<<<
Lying to a cop gives an officer legal cause to detain you — it's suspicious behavior. (BTW, not legally required to arrest you — wiki "Terry stop" e.g.) You should then reasonably expect an officer to figure out what the hell you're up to — because that's how it goes. Leaving before it's all cleared up generally gives an officer legal cause to arrest you. NPS rangers are authorized to use taser "to effect an arrest."
BTW Law Enforcement (LE) rangers are issued tasers in many (not all) parks, and are fully qualified Federal law enforcement officers; but most uniformed staff are not LE. As you all know, law re: tasers is in turmoil these days, and there have been some obvious abuses.
In her shoes I would have let the guy go (you can't win 'em all) — UNLESS there was something seriously not adding up, which has not come to light in this case. Note that she would also have to justify letting the guy go without a "clear." However to me it does not yet look like she broke with promulgated policy or law, just with good judgment.
Richard,
Thanks so much for that. Since I worked in three national parks, I knew that. For some reason, people don’t want to accept that. Parks such as Grand Canyon South Rim have all kinds of crimes committed. Even gang bangers will travel there, etc.
“I feel that while some people who wear badges are assholes, just because someone wears a badge doesn’t mean they are one. Nor does is it cause to abuse the badge wearer.”
Then maybe you should consider not defending assholes like the Park Ranger in this instance simply because they wear a badge, Eric. Tasering someone who isn’t an imminent threat to the officer or others is simply wrong and there is no justification for it. Using a taser – which as others have pointed out can be lethal and indiscriminate – should be reserved for actual threats, not to force compliance over a code violation. The abuse here was from the Park Ranger, both in her authority and her decision to use force. That isn’t an opinion. That’s a fact. She made two bad decisions and in doing so risked potentially serious harm to a civilian and exposed both herself and her employer to legal liability. All because she didn’t know how to handle being disrespected.
And I know about T’ai Chi. That you apparently don’t know about controlling techniques or how to practically apply them doesn’t speak highly of your seriousness as a student or your instructor though. You demonstrated a failure to grasp basics to any serious study of the martial arts. Learning a MA you cannot apply in real world situations is like not learning one at all. I also know there are dojos that call themselves MMA schools. However, the term mixed martial arts as I used it – “Let’s just call it a mixed martial arts background and leave it at that.” – was an accurate description of my experience without going into detail. I too share your concern about those who study at MMA dojos, meaning specifically those dojos that have sprung up in the wake of the rising popularity of blood sports like Ultimate Fighting. Many of them are training to be little more than street fighters and get none of the discipline that is taught with more traditional MAs, but with a few exceptions, the same thing can be said of just about any dojo in any style. I’ve met students from those “black belt factories” before and they tend to be bullying thugs. That is a failing on the instructors part more so than the student and it’s like giving a child a box of matches. MA knowledge is a tool. And like all tools, it is only as safe as the user and potentially ethical in application as the user was taught.
Just like a taser.
Gary,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Unfortunately, you assume mutch. I was trained in joint locks, and I did take it seriously. I simply have different thoughts on the matter.
For example: a certain wrist lock has no effect on me. Just a quirk of my anatomy. It feels like a good stretch. If my attack used that on me, both his hands are in use, leaving him open. I would most definately take advantage.
Some people are very limber. Certain locks have no effect, or take more time to apply. In that moment of uncertainy, you are vulnerable.
People who are drunk or otherwise anethesized will not respond to pain compliance. While you apply the finger lock, and get no reaction, expect to get a knee to the groin.
Other jointlocks work great on me, makes me cry and such. But I also have a high pain tolerance. While you are putting the hurt on me, the pain is actually causing an flight or fight response. I will react by becoming enraged, I will no longer “feel” pain.
Joint locks, pain compliance, therefore, in my view, have limited use. They have a use, usually to distract, or to move to a better lock or position. For example, my grandmaster showed my wife an application for “Repulse the Monkey” that was brillant and elegant. It involved a wrist lock, then moves to an elbow/shoulder lock, then moves to waist/upper body lock, then to a takedown with the opponent’s face on the mat, with their arm twisted behind their back. But I am not going to “try it out” until I have practiced it until it becomes muscle memory. I know too well a halfassed technique can actually cause injury. I know my limitations.
I was in a push hands match when my opponent applied a finger lock. I still managed to pull free, injuring my finger, but still fully capable of striking him. My point is: joint locks are not an end all, but rather something that leads to something else.
The point that you, and the other fail to grasp, is that the victim didn’t get tasered for “disprecting the authorita” of the officer. The victim didn’t get tasered for a minor offence. What is failing to be acknowledge, is that the ranger has been granted the power (right or wrong) to detain someone for a variety of reasons. An officer (right or wrong) is given a lot of latitude in that regard.
Personally, I think once you have to hire police, civility is already lost. I do think police work warps personalities.
Force and the use of force, is always problematic. Even a joint lock is a use of force. People can have certain physical conditions, that when any restraint technique is applied, could cause injury or death. Remember back in the 70’s when cops were banned from a certain chokehold because african americans were dying when it was applied?
Trust me when I say the day I can box up my uniforms and my “fake” badge and hand it back to my employer will be a very happy day.
And, most finally, control is an illusion. Step beyond the false duality of abuser/victim, guilty/innocent, right/wrong, authoritarian/anti-authoritarian. We can no more “control” our abuser than the abuser can “control” the victim. Many victims, given the right circumstamces, can go on to being the abuser. Most abusers have been abused as children. And on and on it goes.
“Tasering someone who isn’t an imminent threat to the officer or others is simply wrong and there is no justification for it.”
I would remind Gary and Bruce that the essence of this story is as Gene commented above. Any LEO dealing with a violation that is a ticketing offense at best, should not be using deadly force. The guy is an ass, however, being an ass is a common affliction and does not merit the use of force. Worst case scenario for the Ranger is that she’s got a rabid, escaped, leashless dog walker, roaming free. I think society can live with that without collapsing. This Ranger represents more of a threat to society in her authoritarian overreaction.
This helps to move the discussion forward. I think, at this point, what needs to be done, is to, momentarily, put yourself in the ranger’s shoes. You stop an individual to inform them of the new policy. This individual becomes argumentative. He refuses to give his name, etc. At this point we moved beyond citing for a minor offense. Now the ranger becomes suspicious. Why is he being evasive? What does he have to hide? Could this guy be a child molester? Could he be on Megan’s List as a Registered Sex Offender? Is he in the park to stalk a new victim? Is he a rapist?
In other words, if this man refused to cooperate and starting becoming belligerent, the officer had probable cause to detain him. His walking away and ignoring the Ranger’s directive is why he got tased (if in fact it happened this way. Witness accounts conflict).
Now, if he cooperated, kept calm, gave his real name, stated his rights without becoming argumentative, and starting walking away, and got tased without a warning being issued, then I would be much more inclined to say this was a case of abuse.
If in fact this man refused to cooperate, then he was giving the Ranger probable cause. And now it was no longer about the leash law. If the officer told him he was not free to go (he was being detained), warned him of her intention to tase, and called for medical assistance (required under many use of force policies), then she did nothing wrong.
Since in a democracy we follow rule of law, the facts in the case will be established in court. Whether or not its what really happened is anyone’s guess.
What I find fascinating is how many people jumped to conclusions and wanted her fired on the spot. That, my friends, is authoritarian thinking.
Bruce,
Interesting pivot, but essentially flawed. There are always potentialities that can be developed to rationalize authoritarian actions. To call those who decry it, authoritarians, is merely a version of a schoolyard taunt rhetorically.
The facts are as they are. The man could be a monster, but Occam’s Razor indicates he was merely guilty of walking a dog w/o a leash. I’ve actually had to deal with far more volatile situations in my career many times, weaponless. and resolved them correctly without force. To do this you need skills common among many LEO’s.
This Ranger lacked those skills, which have little to do with one’s sex.
“Alfred Adler provided another perspective, linking the “will to power over others” as a central neurotic trait, usually emerging as aggressive over-compensation for felt and dreaded feelings of inferiority and insignificance. According to this view, the authoritarian needs to maintain control and prove superiority over others is rooted in a worldview populated by enemies and empty of equality, empathy, and mutual benefit.”
One does not need a badge to be authoritarian; simply to see the police as your enemy…empty of equality, empathy, and mutual benefit.
Occum’s Razor is stated variously “the simplest answer is best” or “the answer that makes the fewest assumptions is the best, until facts prove otherwise.” One assumption you are overlooking is you are assuming she had no other reason to detain other than to cite him for a minor offense. You also have to assume that she probably contributed to the problem (she may very well have). You also have to assume, that she had other better options (but really, isn’t this 20/20 hindsight?).
I applaud your ability to diffuse situations “correctly” without using force (you never arrest anyone? You talk them into patrol car to visit the nice cops back at the station for donuts and coffee?). At the clinic I worked in prior to this one, a patient went into the doctor’s office. He saw her anti violence to women poster on the wall, and he just went off. She had done absolutely nothing to provoke him, and now he was yelling and screaming at her. This happened while I was off duty, so I didn’t have to deal with him. Not sure what would have happened if I did respond. If a poster was enough to get him enraged, what would a uniform and badge do?
OS,
My pleasure! See you tomorrow.
Eric,
What can I say? It’s not that you have a different opinion. People have differing opinions from me all the time. I just happen to have a lower tolerance for bullshit, but especially authoritarian apologetic bullshit.
You should learn to read, too. Understanding would be a plus too. I have a mixed martial arts background. That does not mean I train MMA. That means I’ve studied multiple styles. Also, “MMA oh for the sake of…jujitsu is japanese wrestling. Small circle, small frame…” betrays your ignorance. Jujitsu, in any of its forms, is most certainly not “Japanese wrestling” even though it does involve some grappling. The two Japanese MAs that are most like Greco-Roman wrestling are Judo and Sumo; they are all about controlling your opponents center of gravity and pinning them (or in the case of Sumo, getting them to ring out). Jujitsu is a mixed striking/grappling art that focuses on joint manipulation and weapons training and it evolved the way it did because it was designed to train you to fight against armed and armored opponents, namely samurai. Joint techniques and throws are favorable when fighting an armored opponent because many traditional karate strikes are less effective or ineffective against armor. Judo is a direct derivative of jujitsu that is almost all grappling and is more sport than traditional art. “Your statements about joint locks is indicative of someone with little real world experience. I am sorry, but that’s my opinion.” And that would be incorrect like all of your opinions to date in the thread. When I was a younger man, I had quite a bit of real world experience including being a bouncer where joint locks proved quite useful. It’s my real world experience (in addition to my training) that informs me you are an ignorant buffoon in addition to being an authoritarian.
Like I said earlier, I am indeed showing ignorance here. Unfortunately for you, it’s your ignorance I’m showing and on every topic you’ve brought up.
“You have some training, and now you think you know better than all those cops.
Not in the slightest. “All those cops” are your words, not mine. Do I know better than the Park Ranger in this story? Most certainly. Not just from a MA perspective either, but from a legal perspective as well. She would have known better too if she were properly trained and didn’t have an ego problem about having her authority challenged. Her poor judgement and lack of skills has exposed her and her department to legal liability and bad press. As an aside, I also know better than you. You couldn’t fill my teacup even partially. Your pot is empty.
“Must gall you that they don’t have the training you do, but they get to order you around. ”
That says more about your authoritarianism than it does about me. It must gall you that you don’t get to order people around even though you so wanted to in Riverside. Please feel free to display your ridiculous ignorance while defending a draconian overreaction by a Park Ranger some more though. That is your 1st Amendment right to free speech in action.
Gary,
If we can set aside any name calling, maybe we can have a fruitful discussion. Authortarian attitudes are often in the eye of the beholder. I have never used force, if by force you mean physical force or the threat of it, in the line of my current empmployment.
I read quite a bit. I would prefer to read than deal with the public. Setting limits to freedom is not authortarian, in my opinion: your freedom to extend your fist ends at my nose. You don’t have the freedom to yell fire in a crowded theater. Its also I simply don’t think the use of the taser in this case was over the line. That’s my opinionm if you feel I am wrong, please use a logical argument rather than emotional, subjective statements. Tasers are not perfect, cops have abused it.
I do feel people can turn a contact with an authority figure into a confrontation, in which, despite whatever training that officer or whatnot, might cause the officer to over react. There are activists who go out of their way to do such a thing.
I feel that while some people who wear badges are assholes, just because someone wears a badge doesn’t mean they are one. Nor does is it cause to abuse the badge wearer.
Gary, jujitsu is japanese. Grappling is essentially wrestling. Its not a put down. Do some digging into T’ai Chi Chuan. The concepts in Small Circle Jujitsu are quite similiar. T’ai Chi has been documented to be around for at least 400 years.
MMA is a specific reference to a training system. If you are a not part of a MMA studio, you are not MMA. Someone who studies various martial arts is not MMA. Please be more clear.
I am convinced I could stand in front of a room filled with deadly gas, tell people not to go into the room, and people would ignore me and go in and die, simply because I had a badge, and was “telling them what to do”. What an aweful authoritarian jerk I must be, ordering people around. The nerve!
On the other hand, if I am standing there, ordering people around, sit here! Sit there! Stop talking! Then yes, I must be jerk. I have encountered security people like that. And yes they are very annoying. And yes, you have every right to complain.
Bruce, those were not “cops.” They were deputy sheriffs. You really need to understand the difference. They picked up the guy on a warrant, had a scramble with him and bought him in without killing him. I am not their supervisor, so take it up with the Sheriff or Chief Deputy.
Gene,
One of our new staff just completed her doctorate. Tiny gal, only 5’1″ and really pretty, but former Army Sergeant who could clean the clock of a would-be attacker. Like your guy, looks are deceiving.
Once, two very disheveled deputy sheriffs brought in this guy who was in his early 50s. Thin and wiry, and I doubt he weighed much more than 140#. The deputies both had buttons missing and torn shirts. The prisoner was wearing three pairs of Smith & Wesson handcuffs. One pair had a broken chain. If fact the remaining chain links looked as if they had been stretched with a gear puller. When they got the first pair of cuffs on him, he simply yanked his hands apart, breaking the chain. They had two sets of cuffs left between them, and after a scramble, got them on the guy. He could snap one chain, but not two.
They did not use Tasers on him.
“This not about name calling. Its about examining your prejuidices. That extends to people who wear badges. Why are you so prejuidiced?”
I’m not prejudiced against cops. I have friends in LE. Real LE too, not security guards. It’s a tough job and most people aren’t suited for it. I’m prejudiced against assholes who think respect is due without being earned and aren’t afraid to use a taser to get it. None of the guys (and one gal) that I know would have used a taser in the scenario outlined above. They’re smarter than that and don’t have ego issues.
************
OS,
A good friend of mine named Dan is a perfect example at the other end of that size scale. He’s 5’10”, maybe 150# at the outside fully clothed. Looks like an accountant. One of the nicest if not the nicest person I know. Wouldn’t hurt a fly if given the option. And yet? He is a walking can of Bushidokan whoop ass. He’s got a really funny story about someone in high school wanting to fight him when he was learning how to use nunchaku. I’ll email you the story.
Look, I never claimed security was anything like law enforcement. Security is no more “fake cop” than cops being “wannabe security”. Security and LE are two distinct but related fields. Honestly? Most cops make terrible secuity officers. We have had more ex cops wash out of Healthcare. Ex soldiers wash out.
What is interesting is how much name calling you and et al have done, simply because I expressed an opinioncontary to your point. So I was the calm security officer facing down the loudmouth.
Huh, regards to the story with the two cops and the guy with three handcuffs: really think about this. Those officers placed themselves in great danger if this guy was able to snap the chain on handcuffs. I knew of a cop whose head got hammered into the concrete because he tried to arrest a belligerent drunk.
AY and raff—
Thank you, kind sirs.
Bruce, 40 you say? I have kids older than you and have been in this business longer than you have been alive. Based on my reading of your comments, you would have difficulty getting past my pre-hire psych screening tests. And as I said, I was doing this before you were born. I am not going to discuss my reasoning, because I don’t publish my methodology.
And one other thing. I am one of those Docs with a license to sign commitment papers. Don’t try to impress me with what you think you know; I don’t impress easily.
AY,
We think highly of OS here too!
He was, raff, he really was. Gentle giant. You should have seen him gently intubate a tiny newborn with those giant hands, yet he had the strength of an NFL offensive lineman. And a heart as big as all outdoors.
OS,
I read a thread at the Daily that was very nice about you and your loved ones….They must think very highly of you….
OS,
Tim sounds impressive.
Gene, my youngest son started out in Shotokan when he was only about 13. Later he got a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. His training was useful to him in the military, since he was in law enforcement. After his discharge, and while he was waiting for his license to practice to be issued by the State, he went to work on the Maximum Security unit of a very large state hospital as uniformed security.
That unit housed both pretrial detainees waiting on a mental exam up to people that even the state penitentiary could not handle.
When they had a patient/inmate who became unruly or refuse to come out of his cell, they usually sent for my son. It did not hurt that he was 6’5″ tall and weighed 270 pounds. Thing was, the inmates learned very quickly that if the Captain sent for “Big Tim,” as they called him, there was going to be pain involved. Despite his massive size, and formidable skills (or perhaps because of), he never actually injured or even bruised anyone. But there was always going to be pain if he had to go in a cell and get someone.
Roman,
Yep.
**********
Eric,
“By the way, you failed to mention what martial art you are trained in. Care to share? I notice I have been quite open about my background, but you and et al stay in the shadows.”
That would be because, unlike people who have issues with their author-it-tie not being respected, I have no compulsive need to compare dick size in public. I know what I know and I use it when I have to and not before. Let’s just call it a mixed martial arts background and leave it at that.
“Truth is, there is no such thing as non-lethal force. All force carries the potential for harm.”
Bullshit. Harm and lethality are distinct concepts. If you had any real MA training, you’d know this and know the difference. One can detain someone with an arm bar or any number of different joint locks without causing permanent harm or you can finish through the move and break joints, none of which are likely to be lethal even if debilitating. I know several joint locks that will make an opponent cry like a little girl long before they come anywhere close to permanent harm unless they are psychotic or on something like PCP. The key lies in controlling the tension on the joint. Just Google “Small Circle Jujitsu” if you want to see real and effective joint locks in action. All you need to be able to subdue an opponent is be able to grab their fingers, wrist and/or arm. Huge amounts of force are not required to render effective control and your opponent – if they don’t resist too hard and you know what you’re doing – is left with little more than soreness. Almost all of these techniques can be escalated into breaking techniques, but they are taught because they work as controlling techniques. Control is the whole point of serious MA training, both of yourself and your opponent. Contrast this with a blow to the throat, which can very easily be lethal even when executed by someone with even master level skills. This is why these techniques are not taught as controlling techniques, but killing techniques only to be used against intractable opponents. Much like police work, when it comes to martial arts, you’re talking out of your ass.
Fascinating. Well, gary you certainly are the superior man. Can’t pour tea into a full teacup.
Unfortunately, you wouldn’t be the first MMA stylist who has over inflated opinions about their abilities. But you certainly cried like a little girl when you got tased. Must have been a blow to your ego.
Tell you what. For about 600 dollars you can buy the civilian version of the TASER. Go back to the park and tase the ranger. Just do it. You will feel so much better.
MMA oh for the sake of…jujitsu is japanese wrestling. Small circle, small frame…T’ai Chi is taught with three frames: large circle (this is the public form most people are familiar with). Then medium, then small. Sorry, most MMA teachers have a smattering of training here and there. I hope yours is different. But honestly, your own actions prove my point. You have some training, and now you think you know better than all those cops. Must gall you that they don’t have the training you do, but they get to order you around. Your lack of knowledge and discernment is profound.
Your statements about joint locks is indicative of someone with little real world experience. I am sorry, but that’s my opinion. People in MMA are always bragging about their skill and how they are so much better fighters. Whatever. Most really have no clue about where their knowledge comes from.
Bruce Wislon—“Ask any combat soldier if there is a difference between simulated violence and actual bullets whizzing past you. There is a thing called “the fog of war”. Think about that. Watch the opening sequence to Saving Private Ryan. Then watch again and again. Do you think any sort of training prepares one to seeing your fellow soldier subjected to that kind of ferocity and carnage. Please. What you are defending is a fantasy of the worst sort. It allows you and your ilk to feel superior. Well my goodness. Where were you on 911? Maybe you could have diffused the terrorists of their murderous intentions. Oy”
Are you suggesting that this particular Park Ranger and the police in general are at war with the citizenry?
No. I was talking about training versus the real deal. People seem to think well trained cops and well trained soldier will never do anything wrong. I was suggesting this thinking is a fallacy. Did you read all the comments, or are you simply cherry picking?
@Bruce Wilson: Earlier in comments I recall you saying that you were a security guard. In response, and especially in light of your last comment @ 8:51, I can see why.
I see now what the problem is. I see shades of gray. You guys see everything as black and white. Yep. Definately fundamentalists here.
By the by, I write a 500 word essay, and all you can say is, “yep that’s why you are a security officer. This shows me! Well, care to share your logic and argument, so others can respond? I suppose and say coyly, lyour last comment certainly shows what a loser you are.”
What gary et al are doing is classic passive aggressive behavior. Its designed to provoke the antagonist into committing an outrage so all good citizens can cluck their disapproval.
You know, in my 40 years, I have had only two contacts with LEO’s aside from traffic stops. Why are some of you having so many negative contacts? How many times do you blame the police for how they reacted? At one point does the victim take *some* responsibility? Or are you the types who forever blame your parents for your cruddy childhood?
This not about name calling. Its about examining your prejuidices. That extends to people who wear badges. Why are you so prejuidiced? From where comes thy hatred? My point is this: the only thing a power hungery thug hates more is a power hungery thug with more authority than they have.
Oh, for just general info: a LEO authority is not derived from their badge or gun. They are issued a licence by their employer (a government agency). This license is to be carried by them, and defines their jurisdiction. What seperates a LEO from private security is not the carrying of a gun, but their possession of the license, which gives them the right to deprive a citizen of their liberty.
What’s interesting is doctors have this ability too. Its called 5150. A county certified md can place a 72 hour hold on you. In that time a social worker will evaluate your mental/emotional state. You can either be released, or be sent to a pysch ward. Chew on that for awhile. Wonder what can get you committed? Fancy, the md doesn’t even have a badge and gun, but can have you locked up.
Truth is, there is no such thing as non-lethal force. All force carries the potential for harm. Especially if the person is resisting or under the infuence. Even using tranq darts can kill. Use the wrong dosage and the subject will suffocate. Someone mentioned firing a pistol over their head. Right. Please mention that to *any* cop and be prepared for the laughter. Obviously this person has never handled firearms around people. My point is that people who critise like this have never been in these situations. There is always a “this coulda been handled better” scenario. The question is: did gary h. Ignore a lawful order? Did he ignore lear warnings from the ranger? Did he argue with the Ranger? Did he become so angry that the officer had justifiable reason that he woul resist arrest? If in fact, she did not release him, he was under arrest at this point. What was the height and weight difference between gary and the officer? Was he much bigger than her? Does anybody know what the parks policy is in this matter? What is the parks policy on use of force? But wait, so much easier to badmouth the officer and anyone else. So much easier.
TD — A couple of stray comments.
That got a smile!
Gary, thank you for confirming what I originally posted. You deserved it. The best way not to get tased in the back, is not turn your back to the taser. By the way, you failed to mention what martial art you are trained in. Care to share? I notice I have been quite open about my background, but you and et al stay in the shadows. Doesn’t really matter I suppose. Most of the posters here need to educate themselves. Its important to stick up for your rights, but picking fights with a LEO is a really dumb way to go about it.
Honestly, if you guys hate cops so much, why don’t you move someplace where there are no police? Better yet, move to a real police state and see what its like. We need to be wary of police abuses, state abuses of power, but really, a hothead arguing with a cop and getting tased is not evidence of a police state. Try reading about the Old West and see how things were. They were prettty violent. And sometimes the marshalls were bad guys with badges. But not every marshall was a power hungry thug with a badge, unless you define anyone with a badge as a thug. This tells me a great deal. I am familiar with police abuses. We had police raid the wrong house in my small town. Ooops. Their special unit was disbanded.
But hey, whatever. So gene h. Wat is exactly your background? Brucespoint, you say you worked at kaiser fontana? Really? As a psych tech? When? See, I don’t think you did. Both you and gene are the trolls. Every argument is classic debate tactics. What’s interesting, brucespoint, is that you describe yourself as a “bouncer”. Hmm that’s very revealing because lingo comes from bars and nightclub. Those are the lowest of the low in the security industry. I am not a “bouncer”. I don’t “bounce” anyone. So. In truth I think there is so much horseshit flying around. In truth, the people who give me the most problems are self-righteous blowhards who are always second guessing everyone else, whose time is more important than anyone elses, whose needs are more important than anyone elses. In my experience, its the bullies who cry the hardest when they get tased.