Bizarre, Politics, Religion

Bring Out Your Dead … To Be Baptized

-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger

Posthumous proxy baptism is a religious practice where a living person, acting as proxy, is baptized on behalf on a dead person. It is currently practiced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church), who submit names for the ordinance. The vicarious ordinance for the deceased have included Holocaust victims, prominent Nazis, and well known Jews such as Albert Einstein.

It has been discovered that the name of Elie Wiesel, Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner, had been entered into the database but not submitted for baptism. Wiesel said, “I object fervently. It’s an outrage.” Wiesel wants Romney to speak out on the subject of the baptisms. Wiesel claims he’s still alive.

Those who practice this rite view baptism as an indispensable requirement to enter the Kingdom of God and believe that baptizing the dead will satisfy this requirement. The justification for this belief comes from 1 Corinthians 15:29, though Biblical scholars question the verse’s translation and  meaning.

The outrage is that anyone would take this practice seriously. Either the practice works and the dead person enters the Kingdom of God, apparently a desirable outcome, or it doesn’t work and nothing happens. Those who object to the rite seem to be fearing the former outcome for there is no reason to object to the latter.

None of this brouhaha is about the dead.

H/T: Howard Friedman, HuffPo, Jesus and Mo.

104 thoughts on “Bring Out Your Dead … To Be Baptized”

  3. raff,

    You said “Hah! I am partial to spiderman.”

    I must say that’s very appropriate. Just like power, with great underwear comes great responsibility. Who would know about that more than a guy with great powers swinging about Manhattan in a unitard?

  6. Regarding the voodoo priest. There was a case in Mississippi twenty or so years ago. Seems this guy claimed to put a curse on the judge in a case. It was supposed to be either a death curse or that the judge would have terrible misfortune. He was charged with contempt of court and making threats toward the judge. He was convicted.

    My point is that I would be offended, but what makes the current matter so offensive in particular, is the smug self-righteousness of the practitioners.

  7. Let me try this for those of you who are offended by this: if you found out that a voodoo priest was putting a curse on you, would you be offended? If you wouldn’t be offended by something that ridiculous (but sincerely believed in by the practitioner) why would baptism by proxy bother you?

    I don’t want to leave the impression that I’m an apologist for LDS. I’m an atheist and when I found out about the practice (there’s a hunk of my family that is Mormon) my knee jerk response was to be offended. And then I remembered that I found their beliefs absurd and as such, they could not have any effect on me. Is it arrogant? What religion isn’t? It doesn’t get much more arrogant than to say that *your* religion is the right one, seeing as how big the stakes are,

    Again, it’s about being told that your religion is wrong in a fairly unique way. It’s bad enough when they do it straight up, “Believe me or you’ll burn in hell,” will piss off most people. The LDS do it a little differently. “Of course your wrong, but don’t worry, our one true religion has you covered.”

  8. What OS said applies to me too.

    “We can’t be held accountable what for others think or practice.”

    Yeah you can. It’s your choice. You’re accountable for your choices. If I choose to worship Huehueteotl or Tlaloc and start the practice of human sacrifice (as dictated by the religions following those gods)? I not only expect that I’ll be arrested for murder by civilian authorities, but that people in general will look at me like I’m a psychotic religiously driven freak even if my motive was to prevent fires from striking the city or to bring much needed rain. Choices, including religious choices, have consequences.

    “We don’t deliberatley set out to offend”

    Intent is irrelevant. You do offend. If you don’t like people taking offense? Stop it.

    “but neither will be held hostage to other people’s unfounded beliefs concerning how we exercise our religious freedoms.”

    You will be as long as you insist on your exercise including the unwillful and/or unwitting being done in the names of others without prior permission. If you really wanted to help improve the relations between Mormonism and other religions including other sects of Christianity, you’d stop this practice as it relates to non-Mormons. What they (we) do in our names is our business, but you make what you do our business when you drag us into it. My solution still stands as a matter of logic. Your right to free exercise ends where the right to free exercise of others begins, including indoctrination rituals done by proxy.

  9. JL Fuller and any other Mormon out there….

    You do NOT have my permission for one of your “baptisms”, not now, not after I am 95, 195, not EVER.

    Do we have that clear, Sport? NOT EVER!

    I need not give a reason, because my reasons are none of your damn business.

  10. But you’ve mistaken me for a Jew, JL.

    I’m not. I don’t have a religion. I have a philosophy distilled from many philosophies; some religiously based, some not, some Western, some Eastern. For simplicity, think of it as a form of secular humanism.

    “We Mormons are just doing the administrative stuff so to speak.”

    Baptism? Isn’t just “administrative stuff”. It’s a very specific ritual of admission to or adoption of any one of a number of Christian sects. Ritual has meaning. If Elie Wiesel, or anyone else, doesn’t want it done in their name? That should be the end of it. Period. You don’t get to choose the “administrative stuff” for others any more than you get to choose their other religious practice. You want to pray for them? No objection. But you can’t baptize others, even symbolically, against their will (or permission) and not be in violation of their human rights. To even attempt to do so is the very height of theological arrogance. It’s a stupid and arrogant practice no matter how well intentioned. I know Christians of other sects that would be just as offended by this practice as non-Christians. If Mormons don’t like being criticized for it? Then maybe they should stop it and learn to keep your religion to yourselves. If people feel they need your help as God’s Secretary, they’ll ask for it. However, even by appointing yourselves right to choose who to “bestow” this “honor” upon, you’re showing hubris in the extreme. You clowns are no more the gate keeper of an afterlife than any other charlatan who would claim to be is. God doesn’t need your help any more than non-Mormons do. You don’t get to decide God’s Grace. That’s His to dispense and His alone. Humans don’t get a say in the matter.

  11. mike can be offended at anything he wants. he doesn’t need your permission or approval.

    now, as the guy on my special underwear says
    “forget you guys, i’m goin home”

    1. Gene. Yep, that is correct in most cases but not in the case of proxy baptism. Getting wet is absolutley 100% meaningless with out assent – living or dead. We can’t be held accountable what for others think or practice. We don’t deliberatley set out to offend but neither will be held hostage to other people’s unfounded beliefs concerning how we exercise our religious freedoms. Even among our own we require the closest living relative to give his or her approval if the deceased was born within the last 95 years.

  12. Mike Spindell
    It is OK with me. Just be sure you do it like we do. No names on a membership roster and give me the option to disgaree on the other side of the veil. I don’t want to pay tihing to two churches at the same time.:)

  13. Sorry about my poor editing above. This is the edited version.

    Gene. Your “solution” is a fait accompli. According to some, we Mormons and you Jews are on the fast track to hell because we don’t believe as they do. At least according to Mormon theology all people belong either to the Church of the Lamb of God or to the Church of the Whore of Babylon. They are those people who reject God in practice and in their hearts and cling to worldly pursuits. (There is no denomination that fits that appellation. These people are found in every religious tradition but they do not represent it.)

    The members of the Church of the Lamb of God can be of any denomination or belief system as long as they are sincere and live their religion to the best of their ability and understanding. That means Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Baptist, adherents to the Native American religion, Presbyterians, Mormons and all the others are on the fast track to the pearly gates.

    The issue is not doctrine but sincere belief in God and a life lived according to the beliefs a person adheres to. We Mormons are just doing the administrative stuff so to speak. For all the other members of the Church of the Lamb of God, the details will be worked out later – on the other side.

  14. How did I miss this gem of Mike’s:

    “The fact that this program also includes many, many no-Jews is proof I think of an ultimate religious program that threatens this country.”

    Are you insane? What’s next? That Mitt Romney was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

  15. Hehehehe… Mike’s ignorance shines bright:

    “I don’t give a rat’s ass what Mormon Theology is about . . . . As a Jew . . . to be baptised into the LDS shows disrespect and frankly callous stupidity. ”

    The antecedent is the only possible explanation for the consequent. In other words, Mike doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about! The fact that he has been corrected time and time again to no avail shows Mike’s laughably low level of both maturity and intellectual integrity.

  16. Genius:

    “The outrage is that anyone would take this practice seriously. Either the practice works and the dead person enters the Kingdom of God, apparently a desirable outcome, or it doesn’t work and nothing happens. Those who object to the rite seem to be fearing the former outcome for there is no reason to object to the latter.”

    For those tempted to be misled by Mike as some hubristic attempt to conversion, please be informed that the practice – as CNN reported – is nothing more than a VIP invitation. The belief is centered on the individual choosing to, or not to go. For people that find that offensive, they really need to get over themselves. In the end, it’s silly that people take any issue at it for the reasons stated in the OP.

  18. raff,

    I want to, but I can never find it with either “Batman” or “Hello, Kitty!” on it.

    When it comes to magical drawers, a boy has got to have standards.

    1. OS,
      Read that article and it only reinforced my disgust.
      The thing is this isn’t a matter of preventing the exercise of Mormon’s religious freedom. They will do as they please. However, I and others will not hesitate to denounce them publicly and to the extent I can I will encourage economic boycotts of products by Mormons. Hubris describes this practice, but moreso a callous insensitivity.

    1. Gene. Your “solution” is a fait accompli. According to some, we Mormons and you Jews are on the fast track to hell because we don’t believe as they do. At least according to Mormon theology belong to the Church of the Lamb of God or those who reject God and cling to worldly pursuits aka the Church of the Whore of Babylon. (There is denomination that fits that appellation. These people are found in every religious tradition but they do not represent the it.)

      The members of the Church of the Lamb of God can be of any denomination or belief system as long as they are sincere and live their religion to the best of their ability and understanding. That means Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Baptist, Native American religion, Presbyterians, Mormons and all the others are on the fast track to the pearly gates. The issue is not doctrine but sincere belief in God and a life lived according to the beliefs a person adheres to. We Mormons are just doing the administrative stuff so to speak. For all the other members of the Church of the Lamb of God, the details will be worked out later – on the other side.

Comments are closed.