ABC News has been given a photograph that might make the difference between life in prison and a walk. For weeks, we have been discussing the case and the application of the Stand Your Ground law. As discussed earlier, I think the case was over-charged and I remain doubtful of a conviction. This picture will likely be the single most important piece of evidence in the case. It shows Zimmerman with significant blood on the back of his head — an image that supports accounts from the scene and will be used to corroborate Zimmerman’s account of a struggle with Trayvon Martin where he feared serious bodily injury. [UPDATE: Zimmerman granted bond].
Unlike the photos of Zimmerman at the police station, this photo was taken a few minutes after the fight. Zimmerman’s shaved head could prove Godsend for Zimmerman. Had he had longer hair, the injury would have not appeared so stark.
The photo shows both cuts and a contusion — injuries that would normally be defined as serious bodily injury by many courts in torts cases where head injuries are treated as inherently potentially serious. The original police report said that he was bleeding from the nose and head and that his clothes looked like he had been in a fight. Zimmerman claims that it was Martin who jumped him, punched him, and pounded his head on to the concrete sidewalk.
The prosecutors can still argue that they do not contest the fight but that Zimmerman started it. However, with this photo, the charge of second-degree murder appears even more excessive and undermines Special Prosecutor Angela Corey’s claim that she was not affected by the political pressure to charge Zimmerman. I can understand a manslaughter charge, even with the photo, but no reasonable prosecutor would consider the second-degree murder charge as based on this evidence. Corey clearly must have seen this photo and the reports before her charging of Zimmerman.
The photo should also assist Zimmerman in his efforts to get bail.
Zimmerman, 28, is still being held on charges of second-degree murder of Martin, 17. In my view, a denial of bail would be an abuse and unwarranted given the fact that Zimmerman cooperated at the scene and voluntarily turned himself in.
Source: ABC
OS, thank you for that information. The more I measure things, write things down, plot graphs, and so forth about the period of time between Z spotting Trayvon Martin and the final filing of the Officer Ayala report, the more I am convinced that the biggest piece of evidence is still being developed in the DOJ.
BTW, thank you for sending me to the DailyKos.
Right now I can’t find the thread about Dershowitz’s recent proclamations, but I’m gonna weigh in on Dershowitz, now, and why I don’t take him seriously when he tells us all whom we’re allowed to consider culpable and whom we’re not. OK?
Here goes. (Boys, sharpen your wits now, the silly bunt is starting up again.)
I don’t remember the name of the woman who was complaining witness in the rape case against William Kennedy Smith. She claimed WKS raped her; he claimed she wanted him so much she practically raped him. The jury acquitted. That NIGHT Dershowitz went on the evening news and announced that HE thought the woman who got WKS charged with rape should be indicted for perjury.
OK, now, let’s get real. Saying WKS was NOT GUILTY of rape was saying that there was NOT proof of rape beyond a reasonable doubt. That’s very well known to Dershowitz from the courses he has taught at Harvard Law School, OK? So maybe that’s the same as 90% sure, OK?
If you’re NOT 90% sure a man raped a woman, you might be 25% sure that she PERJURED HERSELF about it, but would that make out a prima facie case for perjury? I don’t know a single prosecutor in this country — who has not already been utterly publicly humiliated and wiped out of office — who would step forward and suggest perjury charges for compaining witnesses simply because the defendants they accused were not convicted!
And we’re still LISTENING to that man?
Who is, who? NOT ME!!
Elaine, according to a certain contingent here, several of us are offering only illogical possiblites. It would be much better to imagine iPhones being hacked in a matter of seconds, photos showing what they don’t show and recordings magically not saying what they say. Makes sense.
Enjoy your little playground
Otteray,
Have you been offering ILLOGICAL possibilities, huh?
@Bosco: I don’t assume all the reports we are getting are 100% factual,
There is a difference between “reports” and recorded video and audio evidence. You seem to want to ignore or dismiss evidence.
No matter how many times some people here offer other LOGICAL possibilities to what happened that night there are those that are set on convicting the guy.
Back atcha. I do not think anybody here HAS offered a logical possibility that would clear Zimmerman and comports with the evidence and testimony we already have. Everything YOU offer to cast doubt on Zimmerman’s guilt ignores the testimony of people that have nothing to gain by lying (like Trayvon’s girlfriend), and trusts the testimony of Zimmerman, who has absolutely everything to gain by lying, and whose story clearly contradicts the earwitness testimony of the girlfriend about what was said between Trayvon and Zimmerman in the last few seconds of the call.
We aren’t pessimists, we are realists. A obsessive paranoid individual with delusions of grandeur stalked, terrorized, fought and then killed an innocent high school kid for walking around in “his” neighborhood. It makes no difference who ultimately threw the first punch, Trayvon Martin was clearly committing no crime and would be alive but for Zimmerman’s invasion of his privacy (by following him) and aggressive pursuit of him.
Here is what is logical: Put yourself in the position of a young black male walking a strange neighborhood at night, alone, in the rain, in the South. You have already had plenty of your own experience with racial discrimination, both explicit and subtle. You have seen the Internet stories of what has been done to your brothers of color, both in the past and recently. All of a sudden you realize some guy is following you slow in a car. And all of a sudden, you feel like prey. You walk fast, you run, but the guy is out of his car and coming after you.
It makes no difference exactly what happened next, Zimmerman terrorized an innocent kid and whatever happens next was the result of Zimmerman’s aggression, not Trayvon’s fear and fight for survival.
Bosco, I never said that photo answered any questions. It just raises more. The investigators have their work cut out for them. Like any investigator, I point out the obvious discrepancies and a few of the questions to explore. As for the body being moved, that is really unlikely unless EMT’s rolled him over to do chest compressions or examine him. The case will not be solved until every question is answered to within a reasonable certainty.
‘Scribe’s words- “Assuming the body was not moved, then how could the two men be having a scramble on the sidewalk at the time of the shooting with Martin pounding Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk?”
(Ah, the ASSUMPTION word again, people here love to do just that). Actually I do understand your point Scribe. Lets say that IS a body under that yellow tarp.
Do we know whether or not once Martin was shot he immediately fell OR was his reaction was to get away ,then falling down in the grass?
I don’t assume all the reports we are getting are 100% factual, its sad that Trayvon Martin died but I wouldnt ‘convict’ Zimmerman in my mind until ive heard and seen all the facts to this case. . No matter how many times some people here offer other LOGICAL possibilities to what happened that night there are those that are set on convicting the guy. This thread is more like a playground for pessimism.
Now this is an interesting picture. It is a screen grab of a video CBS posted earlier today. This comes from about the 2:02 mark in the video. The whole crime scene shot is brief, running from 1:59 to 2:04 in the video. First link is to the screen grab photo. This was apparently shot the night of the shooting. You can see officers standing on the sidewalk and what appears to be a body covered with a yellow tarp. Notice how far the body is from the sidewalk. Assuming the body was not moved, then how could the two men be having a scramble on the sidewalk at the time of the shooting with Martin pounding Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk? More questions.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39658729@N07/6962092266/sizes/m/in/photostream/
Here is the CBS page with the full news video. There are several items on the story before the crime scene is shown.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7406352n&tag=strip
@Malisha: Well, I say that taking the account of other eye witnesses at face value. If at some point Trayvon WAS on top of Zimmerman, as was reported to the media by one witness, then for that to be true and the girlfriend’s report to be true as well, I think Zimmerman attacked Trayvon after demanding “What are you doing here?” Like slapped the phone out of his hand (or his headset off) or something, and Trayvon fought back.
I think it is fair to say that whether or not Zimmerman was a racist, for a black being followed in an unfamiliar neighborhood on a dark night, the prospect of racially motivated violence could not have been far from his mind. If Trayvon was “cornered” as his girlfriend says, with flight precluded I would fully expect him to fight hard, and that probably surprised and scared Zimmerman. I wouldn’t doubt Zimmerman had already shown Trayvon he was armed, that would be consistent with his belligerent attitude of authority, and would have put Trayvon in fear of his life.
In the end Trayvon would not be dead if it weren’t for Zimmerman’s pursuit and confrontation, so Zimmerman brought the attack on himself and deserves the worst he can get at this point. He is a proven danger to others and should not be free.
Mespo, thank you, exactly. If a guy I did not know was following me on foot, after seeing me WHILE in his car, and that guy showed up again after I thought I lost him, I would fight with every ounce of my strength as soon as he got into range, and I would scream bloody murder. Why would I not do that? If he meant no harm, let him shout across at me, “Ma’am, I don’t mean you any harm, I just noticed that you dropped your wallet [or whatever]” — but just to come at me and keep advancing? If I were to wait to see what would happen, it might get to be too late to do anything about it. If I were to ask him politely what his business was, why would I imagine that I would get an equally polite answer without danger to me? Trayvon Martin had no reason to trust Zimmerman, even though he had not heard Zimmerman call him an asshole, a “punk” [or something] and suggest that he was on drugs. Martin had every reason to suspect trouble from Zimmerman; history has proven that point beyond cavil.
As to the question posted to Tony C, as follows: “based on what you had also said-”Zimmerman wasn’t afraid until he was getting his ass kicked,..” So you have spoken directly with Zimmerman?”
Really, we don’t have to rely on what Zimmerman said as the truth, the only truth or even the approximate truth. He had plenty of reason to lie. If I were to speak directly with him, it would NOT be to ask him any questions, because things attributed to him so far have damaged his credibility in my view. His first two lawyers, who leaped off the case like rats off a sinking ship, may have had a similar experience — remember the statements they were making as if they were gospel?
I think Tony C’s inference that Zimmerman was not afraid until he was “getting his ass kicked” — if he EVER was afraid (my guess is that he was never afraid, and there may have been two gunshots, not only one) is an inference that can be drawn from the available information so far.
There are many more facts to come out. I hope they do.
If Zimmerman felt a man walking alone in the dark with something in his clothing was suspicious and merited arming himself for battle, then why wouldn’t Trayvon be entitled to the same conclusion about a man he encountered in the dark with something in his clothing who stopped him for no reason?
@Matt: By the time Zimmerman was attacked, he was already the aggressor. As for your hurry to shoot someone, maybe you will end up in prison too: Just as the law says that verbal threats are not enough to justify using deadly force, neither is your imagination of what somebody has.
Besides, Zimmerman was NOT under attack when he reported that to 911, and I personally doubt Zimmerman really believed Trayvon had a gun. Because I do not think Zimmerman would have tried to follow somebody he thought was running, and also thought was a criminal with a gun. I think Zimmerman knew before he started following Trayvon that Trayvon had no gun, that is why he felt safe following him. Of course, he wasn’t going to tell that to the 911 dispatcher, he wanted the cops to come roust the kid, which may be the reason he was alluding to a gun in the first place. I actually doubt Trayvon HAD his hand in his wasteband: He had an iced tea in one hand, skittles and a phone: Which is why I speculate he had a headset on; because he didn’t have an empty hand to put in his waistband.
What happened during the attack or how Zimmerman felt about it is ALMOST immaterial, he was the aggressor from the moment Trayvon felt threatened enough to run away from him (according to what Zimmerman said on the 911 call, but I think there is the chance he was lying about that to the dispatcher in order to get the cops out there), he was the aggressor when he confronted Trayvon and demanded to know what Trayvon was doing there, and as the aggressor he had very little leeway in the use of deadly force. I think he attacked Trayvon (based on the girlfriend testimony of the suddenness of their call disconnect), but even if Trayvon struck the first blow, Trayvon was justified in it, he was frightened, cornered and being threatened by bully Zimmerman.
Zimmerman gets no sympathy from me; if justice is served the rest of his life will be miserable, as it should be, and will serve as a lesson to other wannabe heroes.
As for your hypothetical about what you would do, you left out the part where you invited the attack and sought out the confrontation in the first place.
TonyC. – I do aplogize, I didn’t read your statement before hand. I read it right after I posted my comment.
“What Trayvon was carrying was his phone, but why is that any of Zimmerman’s damn business?”
Zimmerman in his statements to dispatch were, “he has something in his hand” and “he has his hand in his waist band.” IF….IF he truly was attacked by trayvon, don’t you think that would be something that might run through your mind? I commented quite a few posts back, if you are in a life or death situation, you have no idea what the other person is carrying and IF they are on top of you attacking you, would you give that person the benefit of the doubt? I’m sorry, but myself personally, if I’m being attacked I “wouldn’t wait to see what the other person has” before I make my decision to shoot. Those are the precious seconds that COULD decide whether you live or die.
@Matt: Mespo was responding to my conjecture; which you obviously did not read. I was explaining why I thought Trayvon was walking around and looking about, and what he had in his hand (an iced tea, perhaps a phone, unless he had a head set, because he was talking to his girlfriend on the phone).
As for this: How was he supposed to know what Trayvon was carrying?
What Trayvon was carrying was his phone, but why is that any of Zimmerman’s damn business? You do not have the right to know what is in my pockets, my waistband, my jacket or my shoe, no matter how suspicious you think I look. It doesn’t give you the right to confront me or question me.
He wasn’t found to be “suspicious” because he was a teenager. He was “suspicious” in the eyes of Zimmerman (I THINK) because he was walking around and “looking about.” You even hear Zimmerman state, “he has something in his hand” and “he has his hand in his waist band.” At night, when you can barely see anything anyway, you have NO IDEA what someone has on their person. How was he supposed to know what Trayvon was carrying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgR7gCxXQYg
Take another listen through the WHOLE tape. Zimmerman isn’t even sure, without doubt, what Trayvon’s race is to begin with. There are a lot of things that you are all ASSUMING happened because of what you are hearing on the news on TV.
The Following statements are from the CCW law in Florida and everything in parentheses I am adding:
“Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are trying to protect yourself or another person from DEATH or SERIOUS BODILY HARM or trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary, or kidnapping.”
(Death COULD be caused by getting your head smashed into concrete. Serious bodily harm DEFINITELY can be caused by having your head smashed into concrete. I don’t know for a FACT that this DID happen but I THINK it’s possible due to Zimmermans injuries looking congruent to what he told police happened.)
“A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person, which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably
believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.”
(That one speaks for itself.)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/23/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-apology?newsfeed=true
mespo,
Thanks.
Tony C:
That makes sense and the case even more tragic. “Suspicious” for being a teenager.
Blouise:
In the federal courts, Federal Rule of Evidence 404(a) (1) was amended in 2000 to allow for the admission of evidence of the defendant’s character once
the defendant has attacked the victim’s character as in this case. Not sure about Florida law.