-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
Author and journalist Dan Savage is known for supporting LGBT political issues and founding the It Gets Better project that helps LGBT adults improve their lives after being bullied as kids. More recently, he’s known for a talk he gave as the keynote speaker to a Seattle-area high-school journalism convention.
During the speech Savage said that “We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay people.” Numerous future Fox News journalists got up and walked out rather than listen to something they didn’t want to hear.
From the department of false equivalences, Savage is now being accused of bullying Christians. Savage responds that he doesn’t hate Christians, he just hates their sin (or words to that effect).
Christian pundits are claiming that Savage’s words violate their “religious freedom from offense.” They also accuse Savage of blasphemy and cherry-picking those portions of the Bible that support his claim of “bullshit.”
Christian groups are citing Savage as just another in the long line of anti-Christian persecutions. They are calling for laws against anti-Christian bullying while atheists are lobbying for an exemption on religious grounds.
Let’s clear up any issues regarding Leviticus 18:22. It’s only about men. The Bible nowhere condemns girl-on-girl action. God is cool with girl-on-girl action. House: “maybe there is a god.”
H/T: Amanda Marcotte, Jen McCreight, Ed Brayton, Jay Michaelson, Dan Savage.
“I think that where we spend eternity is an important issue, one which should be discussed based on facts, not used as a means of emotionally-driven, opinion-based attacks.”
Richard F.,
What facts are there to support any view of where we spend eternity? We will all die, that is both a fact and a certainty. Beyond that absolutely no one, nor writing, has provided any evidence of eternal life except as unproven religious speculation. Some religions, such as Judaism, do not concern themselves with eternity, believing instead that God wants us to heal this world, rather than speculate on heavenly reward.
Other religions Christianity and Islam particularly want people to concentrate on an afterlife and to consider this world an existence of sinfulness, best left as soon as possible. There is an easy explanation on why these two religions are so focused on eternity. When the Roman Empire adopted the nascent Christianity as a State religion it was faced with a dilemma. The Romans were a warrior people and as such soldiers needed a reason to risk their lives in battle. Then too it was a society of that was based on slavery and the promise of a better life beyond was a balm to people living in misery. The same was true of Islam where warlike expansion marked its first three hundred years.
Promise the majority of people living a miserable existence an afterlife ad that miserable existence becomes more bearable.
Cast aside were the other teachings of both Jesus and Mohammed, which were similar in the theme of Jesus “Golden Rule”. We have great prophets whose message was one of making this world a better place, morphed into “ignore the horrible now and be blessed for eternity”. The promise of an afterlife, though I don’t discount the possibility of some kind of existence, is basically a tool to exert power over people in this world.
Regarding Leviticus and homosexuality, see also the letter to “Dr.” Laura Schlessinger, which (according to Snopes) may or may not have actually been sent (doesn’t matter):
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp
Excerpt from a post on Dan Savage’s blog:
On “Bullshit” and “Pansy-Assed”
Apr 29, 2012
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/04/29/on-bullshit-and-pansy-assed
…and maybe I shouldn’t have used the word bullshit in this instance. But while it may have been a regrettable word choice, my larger point stands: If believers can ignore what the Bible says about slavery, they can ignore what the Bible says about homosexuality. (The Bible also says some beautiful things that are widely ignored: “Sell what you possess and give to the poor… and come, follow me.” You better get right on that, Joel.)
Finally, here’s Mark Twain on the Bible:
It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
Elaine,
There God is offended by questioning of their teachings……
Organizers of teen conference apologize for Dan Savage’s remarks about Bible
http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_20522814/organizers-teen-conference-apologize-dan-savages-speech
Excerpt:
“We expected it to be about how student publications can promote anti-bullying programs on campus,” said teacher Rick Tuttle of Sutter, who took six Sutter Union High School yearbook staff members to the three-day conference. “So we were surprised when it suddenly became clear it was not about that, but just a hostile torrent of obscenities and foul language that was completely inappropriate for a high school student audience and highly unprofessional.”
He said three of the Sutter students walked out.
In his blog Sunday, Savage apologized for his “pansy” comment, but stood by his biblical commentary.
“I did not attack Christianity,” Savage wrote. “I attacked hypocrisy. My remarks can only be read as an attack on all Christians if you believe all Christians are hypocrites. Which I don’t believe.”
Tuttle said he “fully supported” his students’ right to walk out and said he believes the Sutter students that stayed would have walked out also, but may have been intimidated.
Video of the incident posted on YouTube shows the vast majority of the students supported and applauded Savage’s remarks.
*****
Doesn’t that teacher understand that some Christians use excerpts from the Bible as their reason to be prejudiced against and/or bully lesbians and gays? Wasn’t that the point that Savage was trying to get across?
“No one has the “freedom from offense”, religious or otherwise.”
Gene,
Adding to your comment, the very idea of freedom from offense is ludicrous. A student receiving a “D” grade on an essay they’ve written is being “offended”. A parent rebuking a child’s actions is “offending” the child. My being told I’m acting like a boor in a social gathering is “offensive” to me at least, even if my actions are boorish. A gay man being told that his sexual preference is a sin and a “offense” to God, is being offended. “Freedom from offense” as a notion of a “right” is an absurdity.
However, in the context of many beliefs true believers do find contrasting views “offensive” in that there lies the danger inherent to any faith-based belief system that other viewpoints may undercut the faith with negativity. Those that need to face life with the certainty that they are safe from all the dangers fraught with existence need to hold fast to their protective “charm” of belief. The uncertainty of life is far too scary for many people, even though uncertainty of existence is one of the basic factors inherent to life itself.
Nal, elaine,
Bullying in any format in inappropriate….. You both probably have better knowledge by seeing it in action first hand….. There are some people that just never get it and probably never will…… Then they say what an assholes this or that person is…… They fail to realize karma is a real bitch….. And the beauty of karma its real….. You don’t have to believe anything…… It is a universal truth…..much like an eye for an eye or do unto others…..
“What really matters is whether or not Jesus really was crucified, buried and rose from the dead.”
That’s one of the big elements of bullshit to which Dan Savage was referring.
“…where we spend eternity is an important issue…”
More of the utter bullshit Savage discussed.
David,
Thank you for this post and for the Dan Savage clip. Savage is a brilliant man. I first became aware of him through his syndicated sex advice column in the Village Voice in NYC. His wisdom on sexuality for both gay and straight people is superb. As time passed I have had the pleasure of following his work and career. As he ages he just gets better and better as a social/political commentator “par excellance”.
As I watched the faces of those walking out in the clip I saw smug smiles on the faces of the kids. My impression was that the walkout was not only pre-planned possibly by their pastor, but the smiles also evinced the self-righteousness of the religious authoritarian thinker. They smiled in the certain knowledge that they held the truth. How sad it is that anyone can believe that they know the total truth about the workings of this Universe.
“freedom from offense” sounds like a another form of “stand your ground”
What really matters is whether or not Jesus really was crucified, buried and rose from the dead. I think that where we spend eternity is an important issue, one which should be discussed based on facts, not used as a means of emotionally-driven, opinion-based attacks.
**Try to have the**
Must. Have. More. Coffee.
“religious freedom from offense”? I don’t agree with Dan Savage on many topics, but to his obviously fundamentalist critics in this instance who rely upon the above as their defense for their willing and purposeful unreasoned bigotry?
I say to you, “Fuck you and the Zombie Fairy Tale you rode in on.”
No one has the “freedom from offense”, religious or otherwise.
No one.
The very nature of such a ridiculous idea subjects your freedom of speech (including the freedom you enjoy to espouse your own ridiculous religion to others who may or may not be interested in it) to the reactions and approval of others. What would you say if I said, “I find your proselytizing offensive and annoying.” You’d get your panties all bunched up, wouldn’t you? Sorry! Freedom of speech inherently includes the freedom to be offended. To to have the 1st Amendment repealed if you have a problem with that. If you don’t like what someone says? Make a rebuttal or ignore them. But if you’re offended? That is your reaction. As in “your responsibility” and “your problem”. No one else is responsible for you being a thin skinned candy ass who can’t take criticism of your religion without getting your widdle feelin’s hurt. Grow up. If your religion can’t take criticism, it’s not much of a God you worship now, is it?
If that offends you?
Forgive me.
It’s what Jesus would do.
i GOT IT BASSACKWARDS, BUT YOU KNOW……
If God exists, he must be omnipotent, cuz he sure lets evil things happen.
It doesn’t become better if you call it for theodice, now does it.
I think someone needs to get an idea about what bullying is.
“Christian pundits are claiming that Savage’s words violate their “religious freedom from offense.” They also accuse Savage of blasphemy and cherry-picking those portions of the Bible that support his claim of “bullshit.” Dan Savage is absolutely correct, just read it to see the “bullshit” of it! Religion is divisive, requires an “enemy” whether it is earthly like Dan or in another mythical dimension. All religions are based on myth, misogyny, fear and guilt, they just have different holidays! Voltaire stated, “Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities!” Thomas Jefferson said, “I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.” Religions strike at the heart of human nature, repressing and distorting human sexuality in a manner that causes tremendous psychological and emotional harm; that is what Dan Savage was trying to say!
Looks like the Christian sector wants America to become an equivalent to Saudi and other sharia countries. That is in fact what they are asking for.
And when does the expansion if the list of execution crimes come?
Hope Christ is there to witness the first stone casting.
He shoud be here today—-if he existed. We do need the equivalent force and that of love to replace all the “Christian church” hatred. Quotes because they don’t live it, so how can they claim his name.
“From the department of false equivalences, Savage is now being accused of bullying Christians.”
*****
An example of attack the person who speaks the truth and makes you feel uncomfortable. Better not to hear what makes you feel uncomfortable and and what might make you question your beliefs.
Wow. Really? HE’S the one cherry picking? Ummmm… wasn’t that the whole point of his comments was that Christians cherry pick what they like out of the Bible. And yes, that includes the people I agree with. They leave out the slavery and even Leviticus 18:22 because they do not like it. Of course those Christian friends of mine also believe that their faith should have fuck all say in public policy.