Iran has long been flog-happy in its imposition of medieval Sharia laws. Now, it has sentenced cartoonist Mahmoud Shokraye to receive 25 lashes for drawing a caricature of Iranian MP, Ahmad Lotfi Ashtiani, that the MP found insulting. As you can see, it is a pretty mild cartoon but Iranian officials stand by the punishment.
Ashtiani is depicted in a football stadium with a congratulatory letter in one hand and his foot resting on soccer ball. The MP’s forehead has a dark mark of a pious Shia Muslim. Ashtiani is unpopular with many for his interference with the country’s sports teams.
Esmail Kowsari, a member of the parliamentary committee on national security, explained: “[A cartoonist] should be persecuted if the cartoon is not ordinary and ridicules someone … Any crime has its own punishment, including lashing, imprisonment or being fined.”
I suppose it is only appropriate that a legal system that is little more than a caricature of the real thing should concern itself with flogging cartoonists.
Source: Guardian
hskiprob and/or skiprob,
Well, this is turning into a rerun of the thread I linked to above. Your one-trick pony show has long exhausted itself.
“Obvious gbk, I have two workpress accounts and they are getting crossed up as i go back and forth between the two. I didn’t even know it until you made me aware of it.”
Well then, you should obviously keep them straight. I must say though that the avatar for hskiprob is much better than the one you use with skiprob because Rodin’s “The Thinker” really wasn’t working.
hskiprob,
Apparently you don’t actually know any criminals.
What part of “without government to enforce laws, you’re left with self-help as your only option” don’t you understand? Aside from all of it?
You also apparently don’t comprehend that equal protection and application of the laws is a methodology and argument in itself that still ends with government enforcement as the solution, not the elimination of government.
The rest of what you say is a fine illustration of the logical fallacies of appealing to emotion, argument from ignorance, mind projection, begging the question and the regression fallacy.
It’s like arguing with a teenager who stumbled upon “Atlas Shrugged” and thought they had found the solution to the world’s problems when what they found was a piece of turgid fiction rationalizing the selfishness and greed resulting from a hack writer’s sociopathic mental illness. You have no more chance of winning this argument than the Libertarians who tried to make it before you.
And they could argue much better than you do.
Obvious gbk, I have two workpress accounts and they are getting crossed up as i go back and forth between the two. I didn’t even know it until you made me aware of it.
Hmmm – can we flog all the “news” people at FOX?
hskiprob,
Consider the irrationality and unrealistic expectations of human nature your faulty premises rest upon. That you don’t understand the fact that laws without enforcement are as useless as suggestions in controlling or mitigating the actions of bad actors is your failure to recognize the realities of human nature.
“Now we have the evidence that no Constitution can stop the tyranny of government, yet you guys are to brainwashed to be able to see it.”
No. What we’ve got is your unfounded opinion and dogmatic reflex that because governments can malfunction that they must not be necessary. History shows that for any society of scale governments are necessary. Of the forms of government most likely to represent the will of the people, constitutional democracies are still the best option. You Libertarians talk and talk about liberty and freedom and about how bad government is without realizing that without a government to protect your liberty and freedom, you only have the liberty and freedom you’re personally a badass enough to keep others from taking from you by force physical or economic. However, you still haven’t understood that you can’t be against democracy and not be by default for either monarchy/dictatorship/autarchy or some form of oligarchy as the only options are rule by the one, rule by the few or rule by the many. Then again, you’ve demonstrated that when it comes to forms of governance in general you don’t know what you are talking about. If you did you’d realize exactly how non-functional your fantasy of voluntary government is in reality. None of you anti-government types understand either the sociology or psychology behind law and government, be you Libertarians or outright anarchists. You live in a fantasy world where everyone is a good actor and markets will punish the wrong doers with equity and justice. Utter nonsense.
As to fascism? That makes me laugh out loud when Libertarians use that word considering their fantasy “economics” are a recipe for corporatist tyranny. Deregulation of business and the economic malaise that has created is simply a preview of your Libertarian ideals put into action. Jefferson also said, “All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.” He also wrote the Declaration of Independence which is a document full on against tyranny of any form – including economic tyranny like the sort Libertarian economics encourages. Jefferson wasn’t a fan of tyranny, but he did recognize the necessity and role of government in protecting rights and freedom. To that end, he also said, “A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference.” Protection of your rights by the Rule of Law and equal enforcement. You really shouldn’t quote Jefferson when you clearly don’t understand the man or his writings in context. Cherry picking without understanding the context provided by the totality of his writings only displays your ignorance of the political principles for which he stood.
You’ve offered nothing of the sort as far as proof goes. Again. Like all Libertarians, you’re long on bullshit and short on proof. Read your own propaganda, but don’t expect others to buy it when they are both critical thinkers and knowledgeable about law, history and political science. There’s a reason Libertarianism is the perennial stepchild of proposed political alternative systems and relegated to the fringes of conservatism: it won’t work. It’s the perpetual motion machine of political science.
You’re assuming Gene that govenment must be the final arbitor and that there is only one method of detering criminal behavior .i.e. the taking away another human beings rights and that is by force. How can a system that takes away the rights of Citizens for it’s economic foundation, protect Citizens rights? Talk about being illogical. And we wonder why govenment just never seems to work out they way we think it should and ends up turning against it’s own people. Govenment is antithetic to it’s own purpose. Hense why Citizens are better off when govenrment is minimal and are worst off as it grows and gets more powerful. This we all know. It all about justice. If corporations or government commit crimes, we must be able to stop both and generally the end up in collusion, corps making the profits and kicking money back to government to protect them. You think you can stop this???? B.S. and history has shown this time and time again. Just look at the military industrial complex over the last 15 years. It black and White.
*IGNORE* Just regaining access to this thread.
hskiprob,
And the spittle flies! Why a different handle and avatar skiprob? Did you find your past rantings embarrassing:
https://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/17/appellate-judge-writes-opinion-denouncing-limits-on-cowboy-capitalism/#comment-364019
especially seeing how you end up talking to yourself?
Also, why do you assume I live off of the government teat? Do you need this contrived fantasy to justify your screed?
There is a lot wrong with our current government. You would know that all who visit this blog agree with this — if you to took the time to know.
However, most don’t agree with your vision of no government at all — that’s all there is to that. Your propensity to attack and stick inaccurate labels on people merely so you can run through the script that you so love is not indicative of much thought either.
BTW, it’s gbk not Gkf.
Yea that’s it gbk. I’m worried that a couple of fascist can overwelm me with their illogical twitter, so I changed my Avatar. Gene H., How can a corporation create tyranny. You need to brush up on you left wing propaganda if you are going to conintue to spew their illogical rhetoric. Gene H. if you are so opposed to corporatism, that I think you should immediately sell everything you own that was built by a corporations or any other entity conducting free enterprise and you can keep all the things that you have that government built.
Geez Louise, I miss the Cold War… Times were simpler then, when you knew the 1st Guards Tank Army was facing west, and their strategic objective was to dip their toes in the Atlantic.
“A decade and two wars after the fact, and only after they got caught.
Do you believe that propaganda?”
========
Jesus, Dredd. Wrong side of the bed??
If you don’t know the answer to your question after all the posting that I’ve done here (which you may or may not have read), I’m not gonna spell it out.
But I do want them to get caught, no matter how long it takes. These folks need to be held to account, at some point. It may never happen and I may not live to see it, but it won’t keep me from doing my small part.
In my post above, some may not have read:
That means millions of officials (soldiers, spies, and police) have been indoctrinated for a decade.
Anyone see that as a clue as to why this blog has so much material available showing a decline in constitutional understanding in our nation?
anon nurse 1, May 11, 2012 at 10:31 am
Dredd,
….
America’s top military officer condemned in the strongest possible terms a Defense Department course that taught troops to prep for a “total war” on Islam using “Hiroshima”-style tactics.
=============================================
A decade and two wars after the fact, and only after they got caught.
Do you believe that propaganda?
Does Texas publish the military’s textbooks too?
One of my grad school profs always said…
“Mind what your teacher teaches you, but mind more who taught him”
hskiprob,
“Could it really be that simple?”
Could what be that simple, hskiprob? You offer nothing before this rhetorical question except to claim that government and taxes are unethical. So what exactly could really be that simple?
“Until the world rethinks this all important issue, governments and religions will inevitably join forces to commit various attrocities [sic] against their own Citizens and others.”
So without a government to protect the rights of individuals and small groups what do you suggest when majority groups commit various atrocities against their fellow Citizens and others? Do you really think that the world is filled with altruistic individuals and there is no need for protection from the tyranny of the majority? History easily proves you wrong on this count.
“Try getting a school teacher, fireman, cop or any other bureaucrat to stop taking money that has been stolen from their neighbors via taxation.”
Many don’t consider the taxes paid for education, having a justice system, and emergency response systems as a form of theft.
Ah, now you are stating your fears that large groups will become depostic if governemnt is not there to stop them. Remember guys, govenments are the biggest Killers. Over 170 million people in the twentieth century alone, not including military combatants. Goverments almost aways turn on their own people and you guys think this is just human nature or something – That is has nothing to do with the legalization of the use of force?????? What else could it be?????? Give me a better solution…….
Totalar Krieg! YES! That is certainly what we need. The only way to be safe from those filthy, less than human, others is a final solution.
Sing with me!
Amerika,Amerika uber alles
Uber alles in der welt
Independence Institute
Consider the source.
“It provides substantive evidence that only libertarianism has the potential of working over long periods of time. Some suggest perhaps a voluntary government association may work.”
There is no substantive evidence Libertarianism would work but there is logical, psychological and historical evidence that it will not work. Laws without enforcement (i.e. voluntary laws) are suggestions that the unethical, the socipathic and the psychopathic have absolutely no incentive to follow and since compliance would be voluntary their victims would have no recourse for justice. No society of scale has ever existed without methods to create and enforce laws. “Once again though, how do you get such high percentages of people to stop operating at such unethical levels?” By, duh, enforcing the laws and not making them voluntary. Libertarianism is a fantasy based upon a portrait of human nature that is dangerously naive at best and simply ignorant at worst. We have crime in a world with deterrents and laws. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that a world without law enforcement is lawless tyranny writ large.
Better yet Gene, consider reading the book. As Jefferson stated: Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. – You and your fascist buddies just can’t stand the though of not being able to live off the tit of government dispotism. You’re part of the problem Gene and Gkf. “The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.” – Thomas Jefferson – Jefferson however did not have the hind site, as you and I. Now we have the evidence that no Constitution can stop the tyranny of government, yet you guys are to brainwashed to be able to see it. You call this a justice system? Have you not read the multitude of books to the contrary. Are you not following the century of continued usurpations opined by our fascist courts. You call this an education system? Try to start facing reality guys and get out of you never never land attitude towards the only potential social system that could work. Did not our country fair better when government was minimal? If you don’t understand then you need to reread your history books. The larger governments get the worst off are the majority. You guys need to retire your obvious fascist mentality. Fascism doesn’t work for many obvious reasons.
As I argue in my essay Complicity Wtihin an Institution, it is government that authorizes the various religions giving them legal force and effect. https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/HarrietRobbins/TdY6cgWMmY4 – Since government is based on unethical principles for it’s economic foundation; the use of force and coercsion to tax and regulate, it is not inconcievable why govenments attract like behavior. Some will argue that the use of force to tax and regulate is a neccesity and some have even coined it a necessary evil. Until the world rethinks this all important issue, governments and religions will inevitably join forces to commit various attrocities against their own Citizens and others. Could it really be that simple? Philosphically it is, but trying to change peoples behaviors are quite different. Try getting a school teacher, fireman, cop or any other bureaucrat to stop taking money that has been stolen from their neighbors via taxation. There is substantive historical evidence that the various collective systems/industries/activities that governments try to maintain, have been done by people and groups operating under voluntary contractual relationships. The best book that I’ve read on this subject is “The Voluntary City” by the Independence Institute. It is quite enlightening. It provides substantive evidence that only libertarianism has the potential of working over long periods of time. Some suggest perhaps a voluntary government association may work. What is surely my opinon is that a limited government as our founders had intented would be atleast acceptable. Once again though, how do you get such high percentages of people to stop operating at such unethical levels?
Dredd,
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/dempsey-islam-irresponsible/
Top U.S. Officer: Stop This ‘Total War’ on Islam Talk
By Spencer Ackerman
May 10, 2012
America’s top military officer condemned in the strongest possible terms a Defense Department course that taught troops to prep for a “total war” on Islam using “Hiroshima”-style tactics.
“It was totally objectionable, against our values and it wasn’t academically sound,” Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters at a Pentagon press conference on Thursday. The instructor responsible for the course, Army Lt. Col. Matthew A. Dooley, is “no longer in a teaching status,” Dempsey added — but he is still employed at the Joint Forces Staff College in Norfolk, Va.
Dempsey’s comments were prompted by a Danger Room report on Thursday that described Dooley’s course in detail. For at least a year, Dooley taught an optional course at the college for lieutenant colonels, colonels, commanders and Navy captains that proposed taking a war on Islam “to the civilian population wherever necessary,” which he likened to the bombardment of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Guest lecturers in the course encouraged those senior officers to think of themselves as a “resistance movement” to Islam.
Dempsey and his deputy for military education, Marine Lt. Gen. George Flynn, pulled the plug on the course last month. The general said he was “quite thankful” for an unnamed military officer who brought word of the anti-Islam material to his attention. Dempsey and his staff launched an investigation into “what motivated that elective to being part of the curriculum,” as he put it on Thursday, and the general also sent a letter to the heads of every military service and regional command instructing them to jettison any similar material, as per a White House directive issued last fall.
The inquiry, conducted by Army Maj. Gen. Frederick Rudesheim, is scheduled to conclude on May 24. Any disciplinary action against Dooley; the college’s commandant, Maj. Gen. Joseph Ward; or any other officer is contingent on its findings.
“Final judgment should await General Rudesheim’s findings, but it’s not too early to say that these excerpts are offensive (though that word may be a bit mild here),” e-mails Douglas Ollivant, a retired Army lieutenant colonel and Iraq veteran who has taught at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. “Further, presentations like this do real harm to those trying to carefully distinguish extremism and support for it from otherwise admirable religious devotion.”
The harm perpetuated on student officers “who accepted the implied authority of the instructor,” Ollivant added, “is obvious.”
The military is hardly alone in dealing with anti-Islam instructional material passing itself off as responsible counterterrorism. Over the years, hundreds of documents claiming “mainstream” Muslims are “violent” have made their way into FBI curricula, alongside internal claims that agents working on counterterrorism cases could “bend or suspend the law.”
“Plenty of U.S. military officers and troops were inspired by their service in either Iraq or Afghanistan to learn Arabic or Dari and study the peoples of the region. I left the Army in 2004, as a matter of fact, to pursue a master’s degree in Middle Eastern Studies at the American University of Beirut,” says Andrew Exum, a retired Army captain who now serves as a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security. “But plenty of other officers and troops began their own amateurish studies of Islam and now, like Lt. Col. Dooley, peddle claims to know the truth about the violence and hatred at the heart of Islam. Pope’s warning that a little learning can be a dangerous thing is certainly relevant here. These hucksters, like the Robert Spencers of the world, know just enough to make themselves sound credible to an uninformed audience and hide their prejudices under a thin layer of amateurish, ideologically motivated scholarship.” (end of article)
One wonders if the higher educational institutions, the war colleges were right all along:
(The Intellectual War Monger). Well, at least we can wonder if they were correct, we know they are right … far right.
O, Bushit, check the source. Damn, will men beLIEve anything?!
Iranian culture is charging headlong into the fifth century, ready or not.
About right for a government and legal system based on the superstitious beliefs of late stone age sheepherders and fishermen. Not so much different from our own Republicans.