Respectfully submitted by Lawrence Rafferty (rafflaw)- Guest Blogger
I guess I should not be surprised when I read of certain states trying to “cleanse” the voting rolls under the guise of voter fraud. However, I was saddened to read that the State of Pennsylvania was joining the growing list of so-called Red and some not so Red states that are taking steps to disenfranchise voters prior to the November National elections. The State of Pennsylvania is poised to possibly disenfranchise almost 10 percent of its voting population. “Pennsylvania’s new voter ID law, which will take effect for the first time this November, may prevent 758,939 otherwise eligible voters, who do not currently have an acceptable ID, from voting.” Think Progress
Most of the states who are embarking on these attempts to reduce the number of legal citizens able to vote in the elections seem to come from the states that claim that they are merely taking steps to stop voter fraud. Florida has been in the news lately with Gov. Scott’s attempts to purge the voting rolls and I recently wrote about an attempt in Georgia to prevent absentee ballots from being sent and received in time for them to be counted in the November elections. These absentee ballots would have an especially dramatic impact on deployed military members right to have their votes counted. Now, Pennsylvania has joined the fray and is attempting to protect the citizens of Pennsylvania from the almost invisible crime wave known as voter fraud!
Just what kind of photo identification is required to be able to vote in Pennsylvania? “The new law requires all voters to show photo ID such as a driver’s license or nondriver PennDOT photo ID, U.S. passport, student identification card with expiration date, current military identification, or ID card issued to government employees.” The Morning Call This kind of requirement sounds reasonable on its face, but when you look deeper it is arguable that this requirement is intended to prevent likely Democratic demographics from voting. “Philadelphia’s top election official, City Commission Chair Stephanie Singer, told the newspaper that the figures reinforced her view that the law was intended to decrease voter turnout in the predominantly Democratic city. She said Philadelphia “is hit much harder by this than any of the other counties.” The Morning Call
The leader in the Pennsylvania House recently confirmed that the Voter ID law will allow Gov. Romney to win Pennsylvania in November. “House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R-Allegheny) suggested that the House’s end game in passing the Voter ID law was to benefit the GOP politically. “We are focused on making sure that we meet our obligations that we’ve talked about for years,” said Turzai in a speech to committee members Saturday. He mentioned the law among a laundry list of accomplishments made by the GOP-run legislature. “Pro-Second Amendment? The Castle Doctrine, it’s done. First pro-life legislation – abortion facility regulations – in 22 years, done. Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.” Politics PA
If I understand Pennsylvania House Majority Leader Turzai correctly, the only voters who are voting illegally in Pennsylvania are voters likely to vote for President Obama. Am I missing something or did Turzai just admit that the Pennsylvania Voter ID law is a political gimmick designed to prevent likely Democratic voters from being able to vote. Indeed, similar voting restrictions in Wisconsin were recently struck by a judge who claimed that their Voter ID laws violated the State Constitution.
“According to Wisconsin Judge David Flanagan, they violate the Wisconsin Constitution too. In an order issued yesterday, Flanagan temporarily suspended his state’s voter ID law and strongly hinted that he will eventually strike the law down permanently. As Flanagan’s opinion explains, the Wisconsin Constitution provides particularly strong protections for the right to vote — “[e]very United States citizen age 18 or older who is a resident of an election district in this state is a qualified elector of that district,” regardless of whether or not they have an ID. Moreover, the state supreme court has interpreted this constitutional provision very robustly. “Voting is a constitutional right,” according to the Wisconsin supremes, “any statute that denies a qualified elector the right to vote is unconstitutional and void.” Think Progress
Are these state laws that are being passed to curb so-called voter fraud just an excuse to prevent legal voters from exercising their right to vote? If voter fraud is a real problem, where are the statistics and evidence to prove it? In Ohio, a study found that the instances of voter fraud was infinitesimal. “Despite his belief, representatives from the Board of Elections, the League of Women Voters, and the former Secretary of State office “have never even heard of one” instance of voter impersonation in Ohio. As the Brennan Center for Justice notes, a statewide survey found four instances of ineligible persons voting or attempting to vote in 2002 and 2004 out of 9,078,728 votes case — “a rate of 0.00004%.” Think Progress
At least 22 states have taken steps to restrict the right to vote and the Justice Department is becoming engaged in the “discussion”, but will it be too little too late for the millions nationwide who may lose their right to vote? Would the Voting Rights Act survive the Roberts Court if any of the challenges to these Voter ID laws make it to the Supreme Court? Is there a voter fraud problem in this country? Are people confusing the term vote fraud with voter fraud?
To me, the right to vote is an integral part of my right of free speech because it is the time when my government has to listen to what I say! What do you think?
Additional references: Think Progress; The Brennan Center; ACLU
@lottakatz
I just want to thank you for your remarks. I think you and I agree on much, including voter fraud is not a real problem, current efforts to purge voter rolls seem to be attempts to game the system for the benefit of one party, and these efforts place high costs on many citizens who have a right to vote. And it is my own view that society has an obligation to mitigate costs so that all eligible voters can register and cast their ballot.
But voter fraud is a specific crime. As I understand it, voter fraud is the false use of an ID by one individual in order to vote under a different name. In any case, as you have pointed out voter fraud is not a significant problem or threat to the election process.
My point was that voter rolls can be undermined in other ways. I think it is a reasonable question to try to determine if other kinds of problems are a threat to the election process.
As I mentioned before there are two fundamental points: (1) should there be restrictions on who can vote. Most communities restrict the who can vote in some way. (2) when it comes to the election preventing one eligible voter and including one ineligible voter have the same potential effect on the election. When it comes to fair elections it makes no difference if eligible voters are suppressed or is ineligible individuals are allowed to vote. It seems to me that these two points compel reasonable individuals to consider if voter rolls are compromised.
One possible way that voter rolls might be compromised is through ‘motor voter’. I am not asserting that voter rolls have been compromised by ‘motor voter’. I don’t believe anyone really knows if ineligible individuals have registered to vote though ‘motor voter’. But that lack of information ought to disturb anyone who believes in fair elections.
The American Community Survey (ACS) from the census bureau tells us that there are nearly 40 million (39.956) foreign born nationals living in the US. Of those, over 17 million are naturalized citizens. Of the remaining 22 million non citizens, about half entered after 1990 and of those about 80% are between the ages of 18 and 64 – what might be termed prime driving age.
From ACS we can conclude that many if not most of 8.8 million non citizens passed through DMV seeking drivers licenses and were likely exposed to ‘motor voter’.
The key question that everyone who cares about fair elections ought to want to know is ‘what happened?’ Did most of 8.8 million non citizens register to vote through ‘motor voter’? Or for some reason did most of the 8.8 million non citizens decide not to register to vote? I do not know the answer to that question and at the risk of being presumptuous I am going to guess that most reading this do not know either.
In addition, ACS tells us that nearly 75% of those 8.8 million live in just 10 states. We may conclude that there may as many as 7 million non citizens who are or at some time were registered to vote in just 10 states.
Is this really a problem? I don’t know. If you know or if you have a suggestion for data sources that would shed light on this question I would appreciate your response here.
Are you kidding? There have been instances when fewer than 1000 votes have made the difference between winning and losing an election. And then you mention millions of votes and wonder if an inexact number of millions is a problem. Let me help you. Regardless of how many, there are entirely too many ineligible voters voting. No amount of voter fraud is acceptable. It’s kind of like being just a little bit pregnant.
I was imprecise and mis leading when I said ‘Is this really a problem? I don’t know’. Let me apologize for that. I think seven million non citizens voting would have to be a problem due to voter registration laws in most or all jurisdictions.
When I asked ‘is this a problem’ I had intended to point out that the data does not tell us what happened at DMV. We don’ t know if 7 million non citizens registered to vote or if 7 million non citizens politely declined to fill out the form. So there remains the question: is there a problem with voter rolls? I suppose somewhere out there is someone who actually studies this kind of data and can tell us. I hope they post here soon.
raff, I think Michael gets his news from Fox.
Sorry guys !! I don’t get my information from Fox, MSNBC or CNN. Also, wonder no more. I don’t ever listen to Rush, Sean or Glen Beck.
Michael,
re: Florida voter list purging. The Governor or the Secretary of State may have ordered it but those actually in charge of the lists in each county (by law the ones with the power to decide) determined on their own that the lists were bogus and refused to purge the files.
As to its purpose:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/florida-voter-purge-us-la_n_1598873.html
Excerpt:
That list included so many people of color that some voting rights advocates insisted the purge is a database-driven example of old-fashioned voter intimidation, discrimination and suppression. Nearly 60 percent of the voters on the list are Latino, yet Hispanic voters make up only 16 percent of the state’s electorate.
Well now – If the governor and Secretary Of State ordered Florida’s voter registrations to be purged of ineligible voters and if the designated officials determined that there were irregularities on the lists which would have resulted in eligible voters being removed from the lists and the officials did not remove the eligible voters; where’s the problem? Oh and by the way, what does this have to do with showing a valid photo ID in order to get a ballot?
MJM,
I am not arguing with you. I am merely suggesting that your evidence is weak. Check out the purges in Florida in 2000 and you will see that Floida is trying to rerun their plan in 2012.
rafflaw: You still don’t get it. I am not offering any evidence or proof of the amounts or types of voter fraud in Florida or anywhere else. The comments I made have been widely reported and can best and/or only be verified by the local authorities. I do know that requiring a voter to produce an official photo ID prior to receiving a ballot will substantially reduce the incidence of voter fraud. Don’t you agree?
MJM,
Once again, the alleged instance of your voting judge not looking at your ID is not evidence of any wrongdoing. As to calling the Sec of States, that is your job since you are making the claim that is unsupported.
rafflaw: The incident I wrote about was not alleged. It is a fact. You should contact the Maryland authorities to verify their policies and requirements directly from the source. I did not write or imply that the voting attendant did anything wrong or illegal. I related details of the incident exactly as it happened – nothing more and nothing less.
Michael Marsalek,
If you think the reason Florida was purging its voter rolls was to get rid f dead people, you are fooling yourself.
rafflaw: Florida is purging their voter rolls of ineligible voters because the Secretary Of State believes that voter fraud is a serious enough problem to warrant it. You certainly can disagree but that is something you should take up directly with the Secretary and not argue with me about it.
Let me add that the person in charge of voting at our precinct is our next door neighbor. She always seems embarrassed at being forced to ask for an ID. We live in an area where everybody knows everyone else, almost. If I did not have a state issued ID, she would be forced to deny me the right to vote, even though we have been friends for two decades. What is sane about that?
There are very few places where everyone knows everyone else. You are truly fortunate to live in one of them. Your neighbor has a job to do, rules that she did not make but must follow and she has a boss. If your neighbor did not require you to show the same ID that everyone else has to show, that would be discrimination.
ME:
A valid ID should not have to necessarily be a state ID issued at a specific state agency. A Medicare/Medicaid card, utility bill, library card or even a birth certificate should do. The whole idea is to make it as hard as possible for likely Democratic voters to cast a ballot. When I first voted, they asked for either a driver’s license or two other forms of ID. In those days, driver’s licenses were on a paper card and did not have a photo. You could have an electric bill and a phone bill, and that would do. They matched your name to the list in the big book, put a checkmark by your name and you voted. What is so hard about that?
The “ineligible voter” claim is a sham and a fraud on our democracy. Before you fix something, you must first have a problem to fix. And the solution should never be worse than the claimed problem.
Oh I don’t even believe you mentioned a birth certificate as a valid form of ID. Now please know that it was Hillary Clinton’s campaign that first raised the issue of Barack Obama’s eligibility. Since then, it has been reported that Barack Obama could have been born anyplace in the world and his parents could have requested and been issued a Certificate Of Live Birth for him. Document and imaging experts have examined the long form birth certificate that Barack Obama released into the public domain. They have concluded that the document was not a ” certified true ” copy of the original but is a poorly constructed forgery. There are also irregularities with Barack Obama’s Social Security number and his Selective Service records.
What are we to accept a utility bill, a telephone bill or a library card as proof of 6bama’s eligibility too?
whah, the republicans are trying to steal this election, whah, the sinister neo-cons are up to their old tricks.
Having a valid ID is a no-brainer, moot point. That you can’t see it doesn’t make us racist monsters, it makes us reasonable.
Axiom: Scared people do what you want them to do much of the time.
Corollary: Not necessary to prove that the threat you scare them with is real because they’re already in “do whatever it takes” mode by the time they should be asking if it’s a real threat.
Curious,
Michael refuses to provide solid evidence of the alleged voter fraud problem that he asserts is the valid reasons behind these Voter ID laws.
rafflaw wrote to curious that ” Michael refuses to provide solid evidence of the alleged voter fraud problem that he asserts is the valid reason behind these voter ID laws.” Is it really necessary to provide solid evidence for something everyone knows is happening? rafflaw – call the Secretaries of State where photo ID legislation is pending and ask the how big a problem voter fraud is. I live & vote in Maryland where anything goes. At the last primary, I offered my photo ID to the attendant who informed me that she not only could not ask for a photo ID, she was prohibited from even looking at it.
Michael,
It’s about old people who no longer drive, who no longer have cars, whose old ID has expired, limited service hours at a DMV, fragile health that makes it difficult to travel and stand in line, multitude of other IDs that are also difficult to obtain, limited funds to pay fees for various IDs, children who are unable to take off work to accompany parent, etc. etc.
Many, if not most states make reasonable accommodations for people in the situations you described. Florida is one of a number of states purging their voter registrations of dead people who continue to vote. Please contact the Secretaries of State directly for whatever proof you wish and ask them how big a problem voter fraud is in their state.
HA HA HA reading what BettyKath wrote made it hit me — ZING — nothing can be trusted!
This is not about me being paranoid.
This is about NOTHING can be trusted and why?
Because of the cover-ups, the lies, the money. I never even THOUGHT of what BettyKath wrote — we don’t even think about the ways in which we are cheated and misused on a daily basis in a thousand little ways, we are lost, we have no trust because there is nothing TO TRUST.
OS, The computer can give you a receipt that says who you voted for but you still don’t know how the computer tallied your vote. It’s been many years since I wrote a program but it wouldn’t take me long to write one that give you a receipt that says who you voted for and then cast the ballot for someone else.
Michael Marsalek,
You are just giving us talking points. Show us the evidence of any substantial number of cases of voter fraud. If you are so concerned, you might want to look at what OS is talking about with voter caging.
What in the world does voter caging have to do with requiring positive ID in order to vote. I see no evidence, let alone proof, and find it impossible to believe that tens of thousands of people absolutely cannot obtain some positive form of ID.
The vote fraud is in the suppression of votes. Its called voter caging and is a strategy employed by Republican operatives to keep Democrats from voting. There is no proof there is a widespread problem of ineligible voters casting ballots. Under this flawed logic, it is better to keep tens of thousands of eligible voters from voting, out of fear than a dozen or two ineligibles will vote. There is fraud all right, but it is not a few ineligible votes being cast that is the problem. Voter caging and rigged electronic machines are the problem.
BTW, I keep hearing about how hard it is for Diebold and other manufacturers of electronic voting machines to create a fraud proof paper trail. I have been using Diebold ATM machines for many years, and never once have I had one fail to give me a printed paper receipt for the transaction or fail to record the transaction accurately. What is wrong with this picture?
It used to be that our SS number was only for dealings with the IRS and other entities related to income (employers, banks). I just renewed my driver’s license and they wouldn’t renew it unless I provided by SS number to prove who I am. It’s also been demanded by hospitals, police, etc. I refused the latter two but I need my driver’s license and it would not have been renewed without the SS number, actually, not the number, but the card to prove it was mine.
rafflaw, I couldn’t agree with you more. MY point is simply that since we are required to ‘prove’ who we are in many different everyday activities (and we seem to be alright with that, unfortunately), it isn’t so egregious to confirm our identity at the polls. Make no mistake,rafflaw. I do not like the ‘papers, please’ meme that has become standard in this country (since I live in AZ with SB1070, I have a little experience with this). I KNOW who I am and I don’t particularly give a rodent’s rectum if you (and I mean the general ‘you’, not specifically ‘you’) don’t. We have apparently decided as a society, however, that someone demanding ‘papers please’ is perfectly acceptable. Several years ago, there was a rumour going around that the Congress was considering a National Identity card. I can still remember the hue and cry that went up about that. We were becoming a Soviet state; there were allusions to Nazi Germany (always a staple argument in discussions of that sort) and it’s ‘papers, please’ demands. We have since then, however, put the ‘papers, please’ demand into practice, by default, if nothing else. Just consider for a moment how many times a day you must, in some form, pull out an ID of some sort to prove you are who you say you are. Personally, I think the FF would be/are rolling in their respective graves at what we’ve become in this matter. Given that this seems to be the societal choice, however, I don’t think that it’s egregious to show a photo ID to receive a ballot. Distasteful, yes. Illegal, probably (although given the TSA and it’s actions, I wouldn’t bet on it). Insulting, most certainly. Should these laws be overturned and/or prosecuted by the DoJ, Defiantly. Will that happen? Not in a million years. We’ve become too used to pulling out our ID whenever required and without protest. As long as we are content to do that, as long as society accepts that as a sign that they are now more ‘secure’, than ID to cast a ballot will become the norm.
Michael,
You have presented us with zero evidence that your lack of confidence in the voting system is due to proven cases of voter fraud. Give us some evidence of your claims. The article provided a study in Ohio that seems to refute your claims that their is a widespread voter fraud problem. Are you maybe confusing voter fraud with “vote fraud”?
Many thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. Ineligible voters commit vote fraud which is categorically voter fraud. Throughout the course of this discussion; I see no evidence, let alone proof, that voter fraud necessarily has to be widespread in order to affect the outcome of an election. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In the recent past, fewer that 1000 votes separated the winner from the loser. In at least one race, fewer than 200 votes made the difference. Even if the candidates are flawer, the electoral process should have the highest degree of integrity and reliability about it.
Michael,
The right to vote only applies to eligible voters.
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You’re absolutely correct.
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The priviledge of voting is being enjoyed by entirely too many ineligible voters.
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This has a subjective element to it “too many”.
There are many people who are not eligible to vote, but investigations have shown that, with very few exceptions, they don’t try to vote.
Do you think it right that hundreds of thousands of eligible voters should lose their right to vote because of an unsubstantiated, and relatively infinitesimal, number of ineligible voters might try to vote?