-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
Michael Salman, a pastor from Phoenix, Arizona, is currently serving 60 days in prison. He was also sentenced to three years probation and was ordered to pay a $12,180 fine. Salman’s crime? hosting weekly Bible studies on his 4.6 acre property. Salman is being represented by John W. Whitehead, president of The Rutherford Institute, who has petitioned the Arizona Supreme Court.
Whitehead said: “That Michael Salman and his family and friends are not allowed to gather in private to study the Bible goes against every founding principle of the United States of America.” Sounds like a serious violation of the First Amendment.
The City of Phoenix doesn’t agree that this is an issue of religious freedom:
- [Salman’s] case is about the building that is used for regular assembly does not meet construction and fire code requirements for assembly
- All houses of worship in the City of Phoenix must conform to the same codes
The City of Phoenix investigated neighbors’ repeated complaints and found numerous fire safety standards violations. Salman has repeatedly ignored opportunities to comply with fire safety standards. Whitehead responded: “I don’t think God intended on us to obey unlawful ordinances. If so, He must be pleased with Hitler huh?”
Apparently those “unlawful ordinances” include taxes since Salman claimed church status for property tax exemption purposes.
Salman was found guilty of 67 Class 1 Misdemeanors, out of 96 civil code violations. Salman appealed and the Maricopa County Superior Court which upheld the convictions stating:
[T]he Defendant was engaged in public or church activities, and further that Defendant’s convictions did not violate his Constitutional right to religious freedom.
H/T: Alethian Worldview, examiner, azcentral, examiner.
Kudos Bill W. on your civility. It is truly welcome, as you are.
One last addition and then I’m going to disappear for a few hours. This one goes to ID707.
I believe we have both have learned a great lesson here, especially myself. Although we are sure to have disagreements in the future, I feel that we will meet the differences with the maturity and respect required of those of us whose curiousity is never fully quenched.
Thank you, again, to all who have welcomed me here!
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Matt Johnson
I would be remiss indeed to not extend my deepest apologies to you as well. I’ve seen that you are also well respected on this blog and my affronts to you were indeed uncalled for. While I can’t remove the damage done, I will dutifully strive to extend to you the same respect and consideration worthy of everyone here.
With regards to the case at hand, further reflection dictates that, while Pastor Salman’s intentions were good, the law (and common sense) dictates that, if you are going to hold recurring assemblies of a large body of people, you must provide the safety net that regulations require. Building regulations, while occaissionally seeming restrictive and expensive, are put in place for a purpose, the purpose here is obviously to protect the safety and lives of the attendees.
Therefore, this is obvious not a case of religious persecution but a case of compliance with the law. No one person or group of people can be allowed amnesty of the law, be it for religious or other reasons. Besides, as any good Christian must know, the Bible teaches strict compliance with the laws of the land whether you agree with them or not.
As bettykathy pointed out in an earlier post, perhaps the good Pastor (and the congregation) would be wise to use the proceeds obtained from the tithes and other donations to upgrade the meeting house to meet regulatory codes and any licensing issues which may arise.
For those of faith, worship is a good thing, but let’s do so within the confines of the law and human reason!
Bill W.,
Your acceptance of my apology is important to me. Thanks again.
I can’t agree that I am as sage person nor venerable. Others here are far more qualified.
I am a person seized by curiousity. You can’t be so if you are not prepared to revise your opinions and adopt new ones.
I am not presumptious to believe I can judge anyone’s fate here, but your current attitude has already gotten kudos. Good luck with more.
Lewis 1, July 22, 2012 at 9:29 am
In answer to all of the comments saying, “What about a Tupperware party, what if I have friends over to watch the Super Bowl or a family BBQ, etc.”
If you put a 10 foot pig sign in your front yard advertising your weekly BBQ and charge, you have a restaurant. If you have two Super Bowl parties a week and charge, with a sign out front advertising the parties, you have a sports bar. If you have meetings three times a week, with a 10 foot cross on your front lawn, with a sign advertising worship hours, meet in a large building in your back yard with a pulpit, chairs lines up facing an altar, and pass the collection plate, all on a property you’ve obtained tax exempt status for, you have a church.
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Right you are. The events discussed above are in the context of family/friend events and are discussed in the context of how they normally occur.
With your enhancement they are indeed commercial ventures and are required to be in areas zoned for commercial endeavors or get a zoning exception. If the zoning allows it, then they have to follow all applicable codes, including those for signage.
The church doesn’t require special zoning but the building must meet the codes for places of assembly. The church would also have to follow the codes for signage.
So we go back to what is the building being used for to determine how the zoning and building codes apply.
Idealist707
While the acceptance of all the other readers is valuable to me, your acceptance is critical. After reading past posts, I’ve come to realize that you are indeed a venerable sage and I stand to learn much from your observatons. While, as humans, we tend to consider ourselves infallible and above reproach, we have an inclination to forget that we are, after all, only human and prone to lack of emotional control.
Having been used to trying to communicate with people on other blogs who invariably tend to be of the younger set (I, myself, am 54 years old), I grossly misread the maturity and knowledge of the members of this blog. I look forward to having a truly intellectual experience with you and the others on this blog!
Again, I regret the circus environment I brought to this respectable blog. I am warmed deeply by the acceptance of yourself and the others here and I only hope I can live up to the standards expected here.
Thank you very. very much, ID707, for your acceptance and the acceptance of all the others! Through diversity comes understanding.
In answer to all of the comments saying, “What about a Tupperware party, what if I have friends over to watch the Super Bowl or a family BBQ, etc.”
If you put a 10 foot pig sign in your front yard advertising your weekly BBQ and charge, you have a restaurant. If you have two Super Bowl parties a week and charge, with a sign out front advertising the parties, you have a sports bar. If you have meetings three times a week, with a 10 foot cross on your front lawn, with a sign advertising worship hours, meet in a large building in your back yard with a pulpit, chairs lines up facing an altar, and pass the collection plate, all on a property you’ve obtained tax exempt status for, you have a church.
Bill W.
Please acknowledge receipt of my comment immediately above.
Bill W.
Welcome to our world. That is genuinely said. I have no territorial claims.
And I thank you for your apology.
As you now seem to have noticed now, it was you who accused others of turning blind eyes. And all I did was to suggest that even you, like most humans, have a blind eye.
And we would do well to consider that possibility when we are disturbed by others views. Ie, is there another viewpoint to consider?
The anger in your response was unfortunately the match which too easily, on my part, ignited my angry response.
I feel sure at this point that we can meet amicably to discuss many issues.
And I for my part have received a new lesson in the need for diplomacy when advancing criticism or opposing views.
My late response is explained by my living in Sweden, 6 hours in advance of USA EDT. So I was sleeping when you posted last night.
My first rented house was across the street from a church. The church owned the house next to mine. The congregation wanted to build a school in the back yard of the house. The city said no.
The church built a bus garage in the back yard of the house they owned. There was no driveway to the bus garage. The parochial students walked into the back yard to receive classes in “the garage.”
Parishioners would park in my two driveways behind our two cars. If I called the police, the responding officers would refuse to tow a car while its owner was in church, but they would also refuse to enter the church. The police had no such qualms about banging on my door if my wife or I parked behind a parishioner’s car in our driveway.
None of the children visiting the bus garage daily was missed by the local school district, beause the were being “home-schooled.”
Mike Spindell, bettykath
Again, many thanks! I anticipate many enlightening exchanges in the future!
Bill,
Well said. Lots of lawyers here Lots of non-lawyers too. Always room for one more. See, I’m writing like an old-timer but I’m really fairly new, too.
Where is the Hebrew writing? I couldn’t find it.
mespo727272
Many thanks!
Bill W:
Welcome aboard.
Idealist707
While I don’t know if it will be accepted, I’m writing this to express my apologies. Upon reviewing all previous posts, I realize that I am the one reponsible for this entire unpleasantness due to my uncalled for attack on your “blind eye” comment. I can offer a dozen excuses for my unthinking assault, but, as I don’t accept excuses, I’m sure you don’t either. All I ask is that you understand that I am not a lawyer (nor am I a mental slouch) so I look at many laws with a civilian cynicism, yet I still have a fascination with the laws as they are written. By intervening on this blog, I was hoping that all of you skilled in the law would patiently correct my misconceptions in a civil way.
I fully intend to continue contributing to this blog but I will refrain from any further emotional outbursts and present myself in the respectful way deserving of this blog. However, if the majority of the readers want me to observe and not be heard, I will fully respect your wishes. Before you decide to isolate me, please consider what my family attorney once told me, “My success is due to the fact that I never stop looking through the laymen’s eyes which can see the fallacy of the law.”
Again, my thanks to bettykath and mespo727272 for your early indications of patience!
With all due respect,
Bill W.
Bill W,
As another one of the oldtimers here, welcome aboard also, we welcome all opinions civilly expressed, though some of us at times can be harsh in debate, please don’t let yourself believe you don’t have a right to express yourself.
idealist707 1, July 21, 2012 at 7:46 pm
BettyKath,
Let me honestly help you up on the saintly pedestal.
I will gladly sit at your feet and listen.
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Please. There’s nothing saintly about me. It’s taken me a long time to get to the point of really trying to appreciate everyone in some way and I’m frequently not successful. I try to give everyone more than one chance to p… me off. Sometimes they need more chances but I run out of them and it’s “off with his head”, verbally or with silence. This just my way of keeping my balance.
Bettykath
Per the 9th circuit:
Cities cannot impose zoning requirements on churches and other religious organizations that do not apply to others
That doesn’t mean you can plop a church down in the middle of a residential area any more than you can a gas station or a fast food joint.
For others above trying to hash out rules and size; per Judge Kleinfeld:
“For example, one can legitimately treat a tall person differently from a short person for the purpose of picking a basketball team, but not for the purposes of picking a jury,” he said. “Likewise, a 10-member book club is equal to a 10-member church for purposes of parking burdens on a street, but unequal to a 1,000-member church.”
ID707
The Brits think they know English better than the Americans. Not all the words are spelled the same. Do you know how to pronounce aluminum?
Aluminium. See, the spell checker didn’t get that. The Brits don’t even know how to speak proper English. They think a flashlight is a torch.
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And again where did you learn Hebraic alphabet?
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I get most of my information from the internet.
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http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/07/19/3549280.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter
Can’t put more than two inks here, or I go to purgatory.
Matt,
We are friends so I drop the family name.
Four your infourmation I prefeur to use the -ur fourm,
including the colours of the rainbouw and many other similaur uses.
So what is wroung with my spellcheckeour?
And again where did you learn Hebraic alphabet?