NYPD Officers Caught On Tape Roughing Up Teenager and Threatening To Break His Arm

There has been continuing controversy over the heavy use of stop and frisks in New York —  700,000 in just 2011 alone.  Only 2 percent turned up contraband and minority groups have objected to what they claim is profiling and harassment.  This video gives an insight into the type of abuse that can occur in such incidents. In this video, a teenager named Alvin is stopped by three officers on the grounds that he looks “suspicious.” The officers are caught calling him a “fuckin’ mutt” and threatening to break his arm and beat him. He is roughed up and repeatedly told to “shut the fuck up” when he tries to ask questions.

The teen is never given any reason for the stop or the abuse. His secret recording capturing a torrent of abuse. One of the officer responds to his questions with “You want me to smack you?” while another tells him that he is being stopped “For being a fucking mutt.” Alvin’s arm is held behind his back as the first officer says, “Dude, I’m gonna break your fuckin’ arm, then I’m gonna punch you in the fuckin’ face.”

There is no indication by the NYPD of any punishment for the officers, though it generally takes public pressure to force departments to act on such YouTube videos. It is yet another example of how important these videos have become to deterring police abuse despite the efforts by prosecutors like Anita Alvarez in Chicago to arrest citizens recording officers. For a prior column, click here. As discussed in prior columns and blogs, police across the country have been arresting citizens who film them — a clear abuse of their rights and an effort to prevent citizens from creating incriminating videotapes increasingly used against police. This trend has continued (here) despite court rulings in favor of citizens. Politicians have done little to reaffirm the rights of citizens in these cases and officers are rarely subject to discipline for such arrests.

Source: Nation

79 thoughts on “NYPD Officers Caught On Tape Roughing Up Teenager and Threatening To Break His Arm

  1. I am the judge at the civil trial of the suit against the LEOs (Law Enforcement Offenders). First thing I say to the cop when he or his lawyer speaks is “Shut The F up you mutt!”
    Parents: where you thinking of sending sonny boy to NYC for college? Think again. Parents who live in NYC: are you thinking about stopping the abuse of civil rights in your town? Sonnyboy is next.

  2. That’s a real interesting display of protecting and serving. Good thing the kid wasn’t drinking an extra large soda.

  3. Mike Bloomberg is a privileged billionaire who won his mayoralty by investing hundreds of millions of his own money to win his position. His concept of NYC is one where rich people like himself can live in their personal version of Disneyland. His stop and frisk policy is completely racist in nature. As a born NY’er who has lived extensively in Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn, I no longer recognize what it has become in terms costs and gentrification. This trend began under Giuliani, but there was resistance because Giuliani was not a likable or affable man (think Richard Nixon). Mike Bloomberg comes across as mild, affable and reasonable. In truth he is o different from Giuliani in dictatorial style, but covers himself with a bland exterior. He is supported by the Media in NY because that media has always been corporate shills and Bloomberg is the ultimate corporate favorite. Thus his portrayal to the people of NYC is always positive and they are fooled.

  4. The real deterrent is supposed to be the ability of citizens to file in federal court under section 1983 for law enforcement misconduct. Sorry to keep talking about myself, but I do have documentation galore.

    Organizations like the Colorado Intergovernmental Risksharing Agency insure law enforcement misconduct. See a copy of CIRSA’s insurance with the City of Steamboat Springs Colorado on my blogspot


    CIRSA arranged for my case Sieverding v. City of Steamboat Springs, Colorado et al. to be dismissed and retaliated against me for filing it to begin with by having DOJ imprison me without a criminal charge or a bail hearing and by having former judge Nottingham order me to pay their bills — without them even filing a Rule 11 motion and without a Rule 11(c)(6) order. CIRSA isn’t a public entity, doesn’t pay income taxes, doesn’t report its claims paid total, isn’t claims handling procedures, or its executive compensation. I had charged that the police let the wife of the city council president, whom they had reason to know was a convicted felon, initiate criminal charges against me because I complained about zoning violations. The form was supposed to be used only by police officers who witness a crime in action and don’t have time to get a warrant. No police officer signed the form and the police report shows no evidence that they thought I did a crime — they didn’t even interview me or someone else who was nearby when we were discussing the zoning while I was on the street adjoining my home in the afternoon. The City also allowed Kevin Bennett to barricade and convert Princeton Ave, a misdemeanor, and to build extra buildings that violated the zoning and weren’t put onto the Routt County property tax rolls. And the City extorted me and forced me to give up my rights to the street adjoining my home and sell Bennett land for $1.

    There are only 2 or 3 lawyers in Colorado who take section 1983 lawsuits and those they take are for long term imprisonment released on DNA evidence (Tim Masters) and for age discrimination in employment. So everyone else is pro se. And in the District of Colorado, no pro se plaintiff has EVER gotten a trial or any financial compensation.

    The CIRSA insurance policies are only a $10,000 deductible so there is no reason for any local government official on CIRSA policies to be avoid unconstitutional acts at all. In fact, I read about one case in which local government employees bulldozed someone’s home and then were found to have “immunity”. And research I did a few years ago seemed to show that the City of Denver has the authority to test police for steroids and other drugs but never does.

    There are inexpensive video cameras that an officers can wear on their heads which would film everything but they choose not to because that way the police can do what they want.

    Police act to benefit themselves. It isn’t just a matter of impulsive beatings and rape. Police also steal. One of the things police steal are illegal drugs. The federal Government Accounting Office did a report on that a few decades ago before they turned their attention to fighting international terrorism and decided to let local government thugs oppress the population uncontrolled. Now DOJ is starting to file actions against a few police departments but it is doing nothing to help victims.

    Lawlessamerica.com is a group that is attempting to document complaints by people of judicial misconduct. A significant proportion of them are people who attempted to sue local governments and police. USCourts rule making is partially at fault because it hasn’t adequately documented who has “immunity” and therefore section 1983 litigation is considered to be “complex” and therefore expensive and therefore it is hard to get an attorney unless you can put down $100 K for starting legal fees. The Cornell Legal Institute reports that the case law about “immunity” is contradictory and therefore there is no way to know how a judge will rule. Of course, all the Rules of Civil Procedure are optional; there is no one to complain to and no one to intervene when they are not followed because the judicial discipline authorities don’t want to rule on misconduct in office and the appellate courts hate pro se litigants and just want to get rid of them.

    That is part of the reason for the growing distrust of government.

  5. “The stop-and-frisk program of New York City is a practice of the New York City Police Department to stop, question, and search people.[1][2] About 684,000 people were stopped in 2011.[1][3][4] New York residents have questioned whether these stops are based on reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.[5] According to NYPD statistics, over 80% of those stopped have been completely innocent.[3] The vast majority of these people were African-American or Latino …. In early July 2012, stop-and-frisk protesters who videotaped police stops in New York City were targeted by police for their activism. A “wanted”-style poster hung in a police precinct headquarters, without any allegation of criminal activity, accused one couple of being “professional agitators” whose “purpose is to portray officers in a negative way and too [sic] deter officers from conducting there [sic] responsibilities”,[10] and police officers later surveilled and recorded the exit of persons from a “stop stop-and-frisk” meeting held at the couple’s residence, allegedly in response to an emergency call of loitering and trespass.”


  6. Powerful and very disturbing.

    “We’re gonna go out there and violate some rights.” -NYPD police captain (from the video)

  7. The attitude that citizens are fair game to be stopped and harassed in order to set them up for a long list of charges is not limited to NY. It is a nation wide problem. While there is no question that people of color suffer more from this attitude when a person of color is not around anyone will do, the them versus us mentality that is drilled into police officers leads to a mind set that constitutional protections are stupid inconveniences that can be ignored at will. The mayor of New York and his police commissioner have raised the concept of constitutional rights as nuisance to a new “high” or low depending on your perspective. People of the human variety mean very little in the City; corporations and developers are kings. This version of the world permeates every aspect of life from zoning to police activity.
    In Bloomberg’s world, the humiliation and abuse of this young man means nothing.

  8. “In Bloomberg’s world, the humiliation and abuse of this young man means nothing.”

    I have to disagree, Justice Holmes. It means increased revenue for the cops and courts. If not a budgetary decision, it certainly could be considered a form of tax shifting.

  9. In addition to everything else that’s wrong with this picture (such as, “they didn’t do that in Moscow in 1977!”) the sound of the cops doing the stop of that guy (“the mutt”) were using profane language while the stoppee was NOT; the cops were threatening and obnoxious while the stoppee was NOT; and the cops sound completely nuts and out of control and I wouldn’t want to be near them at all unless they were medicated. How did they qualify for the job of protector of the public safety when they’re unsafe?

    This is the police state; the folks who ARE the police are not only mentally unstable, they’re dangerous.

  10. Could it be the plan for a “voluntary” emigration? Get all Blacks and Latinos out of the city? Is most of this happening in Manhattan? Wouldn’t it be lovely for all of Manhattan to be a haven for rich white folks?

  11. I have a list of cities and towns where I will not go for a variety of reasons, this kind of thing being one of them. New York made my list a long time ago. I will stay away and spend money elsewhere.

    On the other hand, if anything like this happened to any of my family members, I would make those officers my hobby for the foreseeable future. Nothing I could be indicted for such as stalking, but social media is a powerful thing, not to be trifled with. Lt. John Pike out in California and Anthony “Tony” Bologna of NYC found that out the hard way. This blog entry by Professor Turley is a powerful opening shot across the bow for these trolls in uniform. Hopefully, other social media outlets and blogs will pick it up and run with it as well.

  12. I was told that the worst violations of rights in Colorado are in the mountain towns. These towns have almost no black residents so the NAACP and organized civil rights advocates are no help at all.

    Most of the Colorado mountain towns have only one “newspaper”. The “newspapers” such as the Steamboat Pilot rely on local real estate and local governments for their revenue. In Steamboat Springs, Colorado, over 90% of the economy is based on tourism and second home sales. The locals unite to cover up anything and everything that could even possibly hurt tourism and second home sales. Even the medical professionals rely on tourism as a significant source of their customers are tourists who get hurt skiing. Then someone steers them to one doctor or another. So everyone who is anyone unites to cover up police misconduct.

    Any police department which doesn’t tape citizen encounters in my opinion shows an advance commitment to cover-up.

    I went to the police station in Steamboat Springs with proof of a felony and they told me to take my evidence and get out of the station.

  13. Is it this the Lester Maddox he is singing about?
    “A populist governor, Maddox came to prominence as a staunch segregationist.[1] …” wikipedia.

    I wish we could wash “niggah” clean as a word. It was in my black-raised mind no worse than “negro”, which simply means “black”. And colored was worse. And today’s euphemismistic variants on the theme smell of
    deodorants. Bad ones. A spade is a spade….and he is human whatever you call him. How well the words come to mind.

    In case my words leave you confused on where I stand, a big memory was of the time at 22 years when I did not take the picket sign and bear it instead of letting it remain in the hands of the young black man who reproached me with his eyes outside the Wachovia bank.
    They wanted jobs.

    Until we can clean our minds then what does speech matter. Demeaning? yeah, in some minds, but not in others. Is not mutt also?

    Someone proclaimed above that videos help protect us from police abuse, and convict the police. Doubt it, The present results speak rather that the videos are NOT effecting positively in those efforts. The ignoring of videobased evidence is just a clear signal from the injustice system and the politicians that we WILL continue to be ignored.

    How many days would it take to stop this “stop and frisk” if Bloomberg ordered it? Two days? The only fall-out would be the arrest rate for crimes might go up.

  14. “rafflaw
    1, October 11, 2012 at 10:51 am
    Disgusting practice and I cannot see how it passes constitutional muster. Scary!”

    Thanks for the idea that came in response. Not your fault at all for the idea.

    You are one who represent the lawyer corps and the “better” class of citizens who seldom fear “stop and frisk” actions. That’s fine, maybe. But while we discuss that question, I ask, what can we, ie you lawyers do about this openly anti-constitutional system?

    You tell me, that is an open question.

    Put a lawyer as “citizen observer” with each cop duo on patrol?
    That did not work in the USSR. Nor here I fear.

    Based on the response here to similar challenges by unjustly treated citizens, I expect no answer.

    Surprise me.

    We don’t need to go to NYC to find such abuse. What was your last criminal defense all about? How was that handled by the injustice system?

    Do we need a system of obligatory legal help for pro se litigants such as Kaysieverding? And preferably as a free-standing agency, and paid by taxes.

    Medical health is partially covered. From my position of ignorance of our system, it would appear that nothing is covered regarding legal health.

    But explain pro bono, please. Is that an obligation that must be met by all lawyers quota-wise?

    PS Wonder if Justice Thomas would dare to wander the streets of NYC, without Scali and Bloomberg at his side? Black is black. But then he is not very young. But when nothing else is available, make do with gramps.

  15. Rafflaw,

    This is I hope you understand not directed at you personally. You should not personally be held responsible for the dysfunction of our system. You just happened to be the lawyer standing there.

    Just as the kid who got called mutt and worse, is only the one who stood there in place of the criminals the
    officers are charged wit arresting.

    Luck of the irish. to misuse an old phrase.

  16. “Gene H.
    1, October 11, 2012 at 11:05 am
    “In Bloomberg’s world, the humiliation and abuse of this young man means nothing.”

    I have to disagree, Justice Holmes. It means increased revenue for the cops and courts. If not a budgetary
    decision, it certainly could be considered a form of tax shifting.”

    I have to disagree, GeneH. I feel that these are minor factors in comparison with the suppression of elements judged to be possible sources of crime or seditious activity, or even those who lack the proper obeisance in the face of police power.

    You can not create a police state without cracking heads.

    I said that, but it could well be Bloomberg’s words.

  17. Malisha,

    I don’t feel they are out of whack, these cops.
    It is lesson 101 on provoking stoppees to violate the law post stopping. Speaking provocatively is not a crime, although against the published police manual.
    So make your quota brother and use the SOP we all learned.

    Dangerous? Only if you give them the lip. These cops were “nice”, they did not beat him up “resisting arrest”. Guess there sugar level was low at the time. Time to tank on a donut and coffee.

  18. BettyKath,
    “Wouldn’t it be lovely for all of Manhattan to be a haven for rich white folks?”

    Only if they did not have to pay taxes to run it. Need a few “middies” to run it, pay the costs, and serve our needs of the more qualified sort.

    Good shot, yours!

  19. There are a lot of things that could be done to help pro se litigants.

    # 1 in my opinion is to make lawyers sign their documents under penalty of perjury. The biggest problem that I faced was not my incompetence because I am actually an excellent researcher plus I paid for a case database, bought my own law library, and had borrowing privileges at the U of Wisconsin law library. I mean seriously, I am an excellent researcher with supposedly a 99% reading speed, reading comprehension, and long term thinking abilities plus I had a great computer. Right now I have google search alerts on subjects that seem relevant. The biggest problem I had was fraudulent pleadings from the attorneys and an informal agreement between the attorneys and the judges not to follow the written rules. Right now I am waiting for Judge Bates to allow my proposed amended complaint to proceed and DOJ didn’t even file an objection. And I quoted the circuit court with jurisdiction that res judicata cannot be decided without an answer being filed. The big reason I want a lawyer is that I think they will follow the rules if I have a lawyer. Of course this is also related to the fact that the Rules of Professional Conduct are optional.

    # 2 is to have a list of causes of action and not allow Rule 12(b)(6) motions if one of them is picked.

    # 3 would be for Congress to decide exactly under which circumstances there is “immunity” and then that issue should be separately appealable by either the plaintiff or the defendant.

    # 4 would be for ECF not to accept a motion unless there is a link to a rule and a statute. Not case law! No pro se orders are all based on the broke prisoner act AKA The Prisoner Litigation Reform Act. That allows broke prisoners to get extensions on paying filing fees only three times. From there case law quoted case law until now they order that free people can’t pay to file and have their documents accepted as is required by Rule 15(d).

    DOJ actually filed a motion that I should not be able to file motions. That was the first DOJ counsel, the same one who misrepresented the Federal Register in at least three documents — David C. Rybicki, DC bar #976836.

    # 5 would be to allow proof readers and editors to sell to pro se litigants. Right now proof readers and editors who are not lawyers advertise on the ABA website and sell to lawyers but pro ses can’t hire the exact same people.

    #6 would be to require that the taxpayer paid ECF system be made available to pro ses who can form a pdf and upload it — about 99% of the pro se population. Without that the judges can’t search and cut and paste from pro se pleadings so they are tempted to ignore them.

    # 7 would be to required that the taxpayer funded mediation services be made available to pro ses — as the federal statute requires. This is an alternative way to admit facts.

    # 8 would be to actually put some teeth in our insurance regulations and make sure that insurance companies operating totally without regulation aren’t manipulating things, bribing judges, blackmailing judges etc. behind the scenes. In my case I have the attorney bills and they show calls to and from the courts to arrange the outcome of motions and they show that insurance companies who weren’t registered with the State of Colorado Division of Insurance were paying the bills and managing or influencing the defense strategy.

    #9 would be a way to take a filing and cross out all the character evidence and unproven factual statements and then refile it in such a way that the judge sees it. In my case, the defense filed all these statements that I was mentally ill, obsessed, stupid etc. I tried to ignore them and no one can prove that they are not “obsessed”, not mentally ill etc. Plus the defense just misrepresented key facts. For instance I claimed that in Steamboat Springs Colorado I was prosecuted by the City in municipal court for trimming without a trimming permit — a non existent permit never issued to anyone because a gardener trimmed small branches from a tree that my neighbor also trimmed the same week as shown by photos I took. The defense filed in the 10th Circuit that the state employed district attorney prosecuted me for cutting down city owned trees.

  20. id707,

    “Could” as the past of “can” in that context means be inherently able or designed to or to be logically or axiologically able to. Contrast with “would” as the past tense of “will” which would if it had been used in this context meant used to express probability and often equivalent to the simple verb (that will be the babysitter). The key distinction is probability. “Could” used this way is a statement of possibility whereas “would” would have been a statement of certainty (or fixed probability). “Could” means a possible answer but not necessarily the only answer. Ergo, your “disagreement” is actually a “supplement”.

  21. Kay,

    Number one:
    You are correct. This is a universal rule around the world. If you don’t pay the guide, they won’t open the door to the inner sanctum for you.

    BTW, will you stand for President if we get you njominted.

    We knew you were special, but not an eidetic understudy to all of the Sct and several professors as well. What professions do you otherwise practice?
    Might need to retain you sometime for my heart troubles.

  22. idealist

    Actually when I filed my first lawsuit I would have paid up to $50 K for a lawyer and I had that in cash. It was hard because I was in Wisconsin and needed a lawyer in Denver. And, the big thing was that I needed a lawyer to sue a government and /or government officials. I am serious — there are hardly any lawyers who will sue governments or government officials. There are a few who do employment cases and one firm in Chicago that specializes in people who were freed on DNA evidence after at least 15 years in jail. But that’s it. My own lawyer, William B. Hibbard in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, specifically told me that he was terrified that if he represented me in a civil lawsuit, there would be retaliation against his law practice. My primary defendant, Kevin Michael Bennett, was rumored to be a bully. And even before I sued for damages I tried to get injunctive relief to make them enforce the zoning in the property next door, 701 Princeton Ave Steamboat Springs CO where Bennett added a free standing guest house and a freestanding two story building with heating and plumbing to a property which already had one house where the zoning only allowed one building with a sewer connection. I tried to get Tom Sharp of Sharp and Barney, which had represented my father in law Ray Sieverding for years to represent me and Tom said that if he had helped me he thought he would lose the Water & Sewer Commission account.

    You know I, Kay Sieverding, wouldn’t put all these names and details on this blog with my name if I was worried that I would be sued for writing things that aren’t true.

  23. Gene,

    Have you gotten a hold of PKD’s “Voice From the Street”? It’s not science fiction, and is really worth the read.

  24. Kay,

    Lot’s of chatter, maybe better than white noise OR listening to chaos recordings. (They say both are soothing, I hope mine is not.)

    Who shares your genes? If they don’t exhibit your capabilities, what did your mom eat when you were being formed? Foetally heard music? Mozart? Other possible factors?

    Assuming you are not obsessive, you then have a complete life. You are then saleable as a tool or politician.

    Would replacing the current holder of Consumer Protection Agency (?) intereat you. If so, we could get the 100k which you need, or create a fund in your name to aid others, as you desire.

    BTW, I am not stroking or stalking you.
    Just dancing in happiness around you as a phenomenon.
    Most who have your talents are either autistic or have Aspis, which is fine but not a big seller. Oh, you are both. Well, why not Prez again. We have had idiots so this should be an Aspis turn now.

    Good luck. But don’t count on beating the system.
    And watch out for having drugs planted in your garbage.
    Feel paranoid? Obviously not, or you would exhibit those signs in what you have written.

    Babble babble another time. Bedtime for me.

    It’s been a good run today.

  25. Kay,

    I write so slowly so sync is not possible, but I try.

    “You know I, Kay Sieverding, wouldn’t put all these names and details on this blog with my name if I was worried that I would be sued for writing things that aren’t true”

    One thing is obvious Kay. They have already screwed you. NB to all—-At the local level, although it quickly escalated to get the big dogs to bite you.

    BTW, does this not confirm MikeS thesis that starting at the bottom is useless, as that is where the evil grip on people starts.

    Yes, you have even to my “not a lawyer eyes” sees, or thinks he sees the malicious using of the conspiracy, etc to get you condemned without a trial. And incarcerated to boot. Where the EFF is the ACLU and the FBI? You are only one of many, many, many. All over this country.

    The big question, in what way is the possible felon wired? Because he got not only preferable (not registered) handling of his building activities, but he got big time response to support him when you complained.

    I mean who gets turned away at the police station with evidence to file in support of a complaint. Obviously one who complains against a very well known protected person. Oh, he had made the call to his protectors, but even so. Wow, what a blackhat he must be.

    There are felons and there are felons. Some do narc for the CIA, other sell time-share, others laundry money.

    OTOTOT One of the newest (?) billionaires is a SWEDE who owns a money changing firm, now worldwide.
    It has been proven in Sweden that his firm regularly launders money for local thugs, etc.
    Guess what he can do on the international scale?
    No names, just think yellow as a trademark. This is newspaper stuff here.

    So what your neighbor does under his cover is not for you to know but the police do as they are told by their chiefs. “Let’s go violate some rights today”.

    Good luck again.

  26. PKD? Philip K. Dick? Isn’t he the one style fits all writer. Stuck in a rut, like Tom Wolfe?

    But if you say it is good, I can see what Amazon wants for used ones. Presume it is not available new now.
    And that is not a putdown. Some greats of the near past are just not available. And the Library of Congress does not lend to me.

    John Varley anyone? Besides his Nova etc award winners:
    Press Return, and The persistence of Vision, the ones on his moon culture is fun.

    People who choose to always stay in the same age range, who can decide to stay a child, although wiser than one. Or the idea of
    private Disneylands or other environments of your choice such as swamps (some like them).

    One child says of his 104 year old mother that it is good that they have sex to hold them together as they disagree on all else in life. Kinda hits you between your prejudices. But he does nice jobs too. Post-apocalyptic, etc. Like “Persistence….”. That will get the homophobes worked up. And the eugenic folks too.

  27. “PKD? Philip K. Dick? Isn’t he the one style fits all writer. Stuck in a rut, like Tom Wolfe?”

    Yes, but what a rut.

  28. idealist707 1, October 11, 2012 at 6:11 pm


    Number one:
    You are correct. This is a universal rule around the world. If you don’t pay the guide, they won’t open the door to the inner sanctum for you.

    BTW, will you stand for President if we get you njominted.

    We knew you were special, but not an eidetic understudy to all of the Sct and several professors as well. What professions do you otherwise practice?
    Might need to retain you sometime for my heart troubles.
    Perhaps that’s a bit over the top. Speak with specificity.

  29. idealist707

    One of my theories is that my neighbor was blackmailing locals. Someone told me about sleeping with a married man and going cocaine in my neighbors’ hot tub. That I actually included in a document I filed in court in 2003 with their names. Anyway, that was blackmail material.

    Kevin Bennett, the convicted felon who was president of the city council, built something really weird in his yard. Some electronics on a pole. I thought it might be a listening device, that maybe he was listening to us. But we didn’t give him any blackmail material.

    I went to Colorado judge Joel Thompson to try to get an order that my neighbor should contain his construction within the zoning.

    ( I thought Thompson would rule for us because he had ruled for another Steamboat man who had sued the city, a David Criste, that the City had to give him an occupancy permit. They wouldn’t give Criste an occupancy permit because they claimed he had violated the zoning by 18 inches although it was caused by circumstances and people beyond his control — the City wanted to tear down his house because of the 18 inches but didn’t care about Bennetts’ extra buildings. Criste told me that a city council member, a lawyer named Richard Tremaine, had asked him for 10K which was supposed to go 2/3rds to Criste’s neighbor, 2/3rd to Tremaine because he was the neighbor’s lawyer as well as a city council member. That I can’t prove though it was “hearsay”.)

    Anyway Judge Thompson ruled that adjoining neighbors don’t have standing to make sure that the zoning is enforced. There wasn’t any legal authority given for that. So I didn’t understand why. It didn’t make sense to me at the time and now I know that neighbors do have standing to intervene in zoning matters and that the Judge shouldn’t have accepted a motion made without legal authorities. (See the Law of the Law Blog by Patricia Salkin)

    Then a year later, Judge Joel Thompson’s girlfriend fiance, Vreeman, was arrested by the DEA. It was weird the way it came out too. Thompson was presiding over a murder trial. He criticized the police so then the police sprouted off that Thompson’s girlfriend was under investigation and then she was arrested.

    This is in the Steamboat Pilot and I think there is a more complete version in the Craig Colorado newspaper. It was in 2001. So various people knew about Vreeman and her involvement with cocaine as well as the DEA investigation. And, rumor had it that my neighbor was a long time heavy cocaine user possibly a cocaine dealer. I don’t know for sure if that was true but I heard the rumors from multiple parties and when I told the police they didn’t want to discuss it. Anyway, this was a small community so if it did involve cocaine then probably everyone in the community that used or sold cocaine would have known. So that would be another opportunity for blackmail.

    The police turned me away because I wanted to report perjury. The perjury was cut and dried. The director of city planning, Wendy Schulenburg, now Wendie Roonie, said in Court while she was under oath that she was a certified planner a member of the AICP. I have a masters degree in city planning but was never certified. Being a certified planner is actually a big production involving testing, references, and agreements to abide by ethics. I contacted the AICP and they said that Wendie Schulenburg Roonie wasn’t certified. Anyone can verify that she said that because I filed the transcript on PACER in Federal Court district of Kansas 05-2510 document 18.

    Yes they already hurt me a lot. I just don’t think they can do anything else to me other than murder me and if I were to turn up murdered, they should be the suspects because I’m not picking up men in bars or doing anything else to get murdered.

    I don’t think that it was difficult for them to get Magistrate Schlatter and Judge Nottingham to hurt me. My personal belief is that they were both bribed, that they were bribed or influenced more than once, and that it wasn’t very expensive to bribe or influence them.

    All I really want is some sort of resolution in Court.

    DOJ made this announcement recently:

    PROVIDENCE, R.I. – The First Circuit Court of Appeals has upheld the federal court conviction and sentence of Robert S. Ciresi, 78, a former attorney and former North Providence town solicitor, announced United States Attorney Peter F. Neronha.

    Ciresi was convicted by a federal court jury in April 2011 of conspiracy, bribery and Hobbs Act Extortion. In August 2011, U.S. District Court Chief Judge Mary M. Lisi sentenced Ciresi to 63 months in federal prison and fined him $10,000 for his role as a middle-man in a corruption and kickback scheme run by three North Providence town councilmen.

    Former councilmen Joseph S. Burchfield; Raymond L. Douglas III; and John A. Zambarano pled guilty for their roles in the kickback scheme and are currently serving sentences ranging from 64 to 78 months in federal prison. North Providence businessman Edward Imondi pled guilty to acting as a middle-man in the scheme and was sentenced to serve a 12 month and 1 day federal prison sentence.


    I think that kind of scenario is not uncommon. Even when I lived in Steamboat I suspected the city attorney of collecting funds and distributing them to local politicians. I filed a lot of detailed material in court and one of the things I included was a comment former assistant city attorney Melinda Sherman made to me that “Tony [the city attorney] was the front man”. I looked up “front man” and found “one who lends respectability to some nefarious activity”.

    (of an action or activity) Wicked or criminal: “the nefarious activities of the organized-crime syndicates”.

    So these are Kay Sieverding’s opinions and not those of Jonathan Turley

  30. Gyges,

    Nice rut if you can get it. Actually I liked the premise of the first and only one I tried to read.

    Keep the society as it is today, but do a Burroughs on it, adding the mind-changing new items. Keep the morés and the moral essentially as today, so as to
    parody/emphasize our weaknesses as humans.

    I think I was too tired or unable to master all the new lingo. Reading Brunner at Amazon re-emphasixed my limitations. Does it get easier as you get into the books?

    No answere necessary.

  31. Kay Sieverding points out some things about the legal profession which are quite accurate. When it comes to civil rights litigation 99% plus do not know nuthin bout burthin babies. The things that they might have learned in law school are gone with the wind. Yet there is a demand for lawyers of intelligence who have knowliedge and skill in pursuing civil rights claims. There is a statute (42 United States Code Section 1988) which provides that a successful plaintiff in a civil rights suit be paid attorney fees. The hourly rate can be around $450. If you have to go all the way through district court and then a court of appeals the fees might run $450,000. A cop charged under the civil rights act is liable. If his superior is charged and the plaintiff wins then he/she is liable. If the municipality is also tagged they are liable–jointly. So, sue the cop, the superior officer, the chief of police and the town. Sue for conspiracy, it makes the evidence flow better. See: 42 U.S.C. Sections 1983, 1985(3) and 1988.

    The dearth of lawyers who are familiar with civil rights litigation reveals some things about law schools and the folks who attend and graduate. There are few souls teaching in the schools with experience in court, much less federal court and civil rights litigation. The area of law is easy to teach however. The students who graduate from law schools this year are basically went in dumb, come out dumb too. They gravitate to the easiest and dumbest little sectors of law practice such as divorce or bankruptcy. If you go to the so called legal sevices offices (free services for the poor) the folks there no longer have big scope views of their client problems and do not use the civil rights act to protect their interests on an individual or class basis.

    If enterprizing lawyers knew of the rewards available in civil rights litigation more would look into it. If you want to see an on-going case involving suits against bad cops, and now the attorneys fee end of it, then go to Findlaw or Westlaw and look up Michael Holland v. City of Gerald, MO, in U.S, District Court Eastern District of Missouri. A decision on attorney fees will be coming shortly.

  32. How about a 9mm pistol in the middle of their head. Or a 41 Magnum revolver. Or a 22 hollow point.

    Think about the constitution.

  33. I think a lot of fascism is people not wanting to be involved, not wanting to risk anything personally. That is why it is important for judges to take a stance, because they have guaranteed jobs, at least federal judges do.

    I am hoping that Federal Judge John D. Bates will recognize that the Prisoner Tracking System isn’t supposed to be used without a criminal charge and that DOJ attorney David Cotter Rybicki misrepresented that the PTS can be legally used without a criminal charge.

    If pro se litigants are going to be imprisoned by the U.S. Department of Justice for filing in federal Court, as I, Kay Sieverding, was, then it should be Congress that decides when that happens after holding public hearings and the laws allowing summary imprisonment of pro se litigants for filing in Court, as well as procedures for issuing orders against self-representation, should be consistent across the country and published. When I went into federal litigation I was under the impression that as long as I told the truth at all times I would be safe, but instead all my property, my professional and personal reputations, and my liberty were taken from me. As I stated before, there were no rule 11(c)(6) orders against me, no motions to impeach my testimony, and no complaints that even a single sentence that I wrote was perjury even though I verified thousands of pages of filings under penalty of perjury.

    What happened to me was in some ways similar to what happened in Gerold Missouri. In both Gerold and in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, criminal prosecution was instituted by an individual who was not a government employee. In Steamboat Springs, Colorado, Jane Bennett, then the wife of the city council president, initiated the criminal prosecution of me by signing a police form that was supposed to be signed only by police and the apparent reason she did so was so that she could keep the buildings she and her husband Kevin Bennett built that violated the zoning. They paid a lot of money for those extra buildings but the Bennetts knew when they built them that they violated the zoning. The transcript in the District of Kansas, 05-2510, document 18, shows that the D.A. didn’t participate and that there was no evidence that I did anything criminal. The local judge, James Garrecht, predicted on the transcript that I wouldn’t be able to get a lawyer to sue the City of Steamboat Springs because law firms in the area don’t have that sort of practice. No one there cared about my rights, all they cared about was money, which was highly controlled by Kevin Bennett, the convicted felon who was the president of the city council in a town with no mayor.

  34. This is the way the majority of these kids are treated by the NYPD. The cops have become armed THUGS. Armed and dangerous THUGS who harass and violate peoples rights all day long.

    This is the norm for police now. It is part of our security state to keep people in fear of losing whatever small freedoms they currently have. They will arrest you for having bad manners or perceived ‘disrespect’ that violates no law on the books.

    Americans do not have rights now, we all are just animals in the jungle being hunted by various factions, and the cops are one of the most dangerous groups you can encounter. Avoid them.

  35. Matt — thank you.

    shano — As per my previous postings I don’t have a criminal record but DOJ detained me without a criminal charge. That changed my perspective on law enforcement. Previously I thought it didn’t concern me because I wasn’t planning to commit any crimes.

    So anyway I was held for 124 days in a facility that had 40% federal prisoners and 60% state prisoners. One woman who I met was detained for about two weeks because she failed to timely renew her auto registration. The only phone was in a communal area so everyone knew everyone else’s business plus she was open about it. She said she did’t have a criminal record. She said the reason that she didn’t renew her auto registration when she was supposed to was because her daughter had cancer so they were broke. Georgetown Colorado where this was was formerly a coal mining area and the only income to the area seemed to be people stopping on the way to the mountain resorts. All the jobs there were probably minimum wage. It took her husband two weeks to raise bail, which was $450, and during that time her husband was trying to earn an income as well as take care of their children including the daughter with cancer.

    You cannot tell me that she had any criminal intent. Excessive bail is supposed to be against the 8th Amendment and when workers are making about $250 take home per week and most are living paycheck to paycheck, then $450 minimum bail is way too much. The officer didn’t have to arrest her, he could have just told her to renew her registration and given her a month to do so.

  36. Let me make some general observations, if they interest you, take them to heart at your OWN risk.

    I am not inciting to revolt, but to change. To change our useless fight for change, which Obama did not deliver, and to get the one we long for. To escape the serfdom we see coming soon. Since the voting route does not work, other ways of effecting our situation must be found. And MLKjr and Gandhi are mre my choicess.

    Don Quixote never won against a windmill, although he was brave.
    Joan of Arc could not have won without the King’s army.

    Fighting the system on the bsais of laws etc is a losing proposition. That is why it is a business idea for ACLU, who get compensated in other ways.

    Why do lawyers don’t do civil rights, etc. of Kay’s type. Maybe it hurts their chances of survival, and of their families.

    Why do judges not judge according to law, procedure, canons, etc etc.
    Because he who bucks the system get to eat crap for the rest of his life. His honor will be dishonored and harassed the rest of his life. His kids will, his wife will, his car will, his house will—–everything will go to hades subtly, slowly, excruciatingly, very painfully.

    Until we band together and stand, replacing the ones borne away from our group to the FEMA camps with fresh bodies, so freshly arriving that the one percent will finally despair and try to lure us into negotiations—-until then we will lose to the system. And maybe we will lose then also. Or of course thay could loose the drones/UAVs on us.

    But, like I wrote on the Siegel thread. we are occupied by a foreign army and the one percent are the generals and we the colony.

    When in order to create a more perfect union…….!
    “It is the duty….” Independence, wasn’t that why we moved to America and westward in search of land and liberty.

    It is bleed now or starve later. Starved not only for food, but the nourishment of life and liberty—the pursuit of happiness is your job to fix.

    Is this a seditious act? My mentioning of civil disobedience to change the system, to shake off our bonds? A citizen’s duty is to know all the laws to be obeyed, even if you are in Yemen. Anybody know where the line goes between free speech and sedition? Obama is using 1918 more than all the cases previously. Best we learn what we can say that is not seditious. But voting? We know how that works, not at all well. Choosing a stooge of capital to replace a different color stooge is meaningless.

    Any young persons to sacrifice? Well educate them and don’t let them volunteer for Afghan or Iran.

  37. Quickly I add….. I speak of blood and sacrifices. I do not speak of offéring violence but we must face the violence that has been and will be offered us. And that will lead to our blood being shed and pain. Bodily pain.

    Do I call for violence and the sacrificing of your childrens’ lives? Not at all, but taking a risk of being abused exercising your constitutional rights, is a sacrifice of security.

    The security that we have purchsed by following Bush and Cheney, thus losing more liberty in the process, and some million lives, if we count Iraqiana snd Afghanistanians. And they had families, all the civilians and suspected combatants we eliminated. So they do count in my eyes.

  38. idealist707 1, October 12, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    It’s going to change. What the women don’t understand is they’re going to be wearing burqua’s if they don’t get on the train.

    By the time they figure that out, it will be too late. They think they can do something about it, they can’t.

  39. I still think that the wheels of justice turn slowly but do turn.

    US Courts is slowly responding to the needs of pro se litigants. Now, according to pro se wikipedia, 18 of 94 federal district courts let pro se litigants use ECF. The Third Branch, the magazine of federal judges, found that prisoner litigation often has value.

    DOJ is actually pursing a lot of police departments for misconduct.

    Citizens are more willing to sit on juries and if pro ses could get through a motion to dismiss I think a lot of the juries would rule pro pro se.

    Judges aren’t at risk for ruling pro pro se or anti government corruption. Really, nothing bad will happen to them. They aren’t going to lose their jobs and their kids aren’t going to be harassed at school.

    Judge Bates is a hard one because he is a former DOJ employee and therefore has a perspective based on that. And he hasn’t let me use ECF, hasn’t allowed any oral hearings and hasn’t cut me any slack. But, he is a Presbyterian “The Compassion, Peace and Justice ministry area helps Presbyterians respond to the needs of the world’s most vulnerable people, address injustice in all areas of life and advocate for peaceful solutions to conflict.”

    “Jesus frequently witnessed to the priority of the poor in the reign of God. He challenged the rich young ruler, he sharply criticized the hard-heartedness of religious leaders, and he taught that those who reached out to marginalized persons were serving him (Luke 18:18-25, Matthew 19:16-24 and Luke 10:25-37). In addition, Christ speaks of the accountability of nations to do justice in Matthew 25 and states, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”

    Presbyterians believe that one’s acts determine your salvation, not just expressions of faith. It’s what you do that counts.

    If I can get Judge John D. Bates to recognize pro se rights including that DOJ shouldn’t use the Prisoner Tracking System to imprison pro ses to stop them from filing in court, I think it could make a huge difference. Judge Bates is a respected judge and the U.S. Federal Court it the District of Columbia has more impact than other federal courts.

  40. kaysieverding 1, October 12, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    I still think that the wheels of justice turn slowly but do turn.
    Guess again.

  41. I’m absolutely positive that the wheels of justice do turn even though they are slow to turn. Look at the entire civil rights movement. It used to be considered legal to have separate railway cars for minorities and for them to be barred from public restrooms. Less than 100 years ago minority rail passengers had to use the fields to relieve themselves. And the Supreme Court at the time ruled that that was legal.

  42. Kay,

    You are not taking a holistic view. Let us not forget the corporate tyranny which rules, and will continue to ignore the law with the aid of bribes, lobbying, etc to create laws, weaken regulating laws, and the agencies enforcing them, etc. A new law inhibiting EPA has been passed newly.

    They bought their rights in 1840’s, if not before.
    Not for nothing is a Koch organ called the Federalist something or other.

    The law and legal system per se is a Potemkin village, where behind the scenery deals are made suiting he who has the most power. Witness Zimmerman vs FLA now. His father is not a man/magistrate who sells legal decisions to Washingtonians in exchange for power, por nada.

    The second freeing of the slaves in 1954 and the resistance to that emancipatiion until now has been also a good example of social engineering opposed by secret cabals.

    Good luck. Did you sell your house and move? To live next to such neighbors must have been unbearable.
    Sorry if I get personal, but I wonder if that would not have been better. To sell, lose money and move.

    To see a very few bleed for the many who shirk is sad to see. Good luck.

    And I still believe that even judges have to follow the dictates of the system or suffer. Yes, and their children too, out unto the seventh led. Who said such condemnations?

  43. Our lives in Steamboat Springs weren’t totally miserable. We did make some friends there. We went skiing a lot. It’s just that at a point I felt that he had just gone too far. And, our property was our major financial asset. And I was afraid of people selling drugs to our adolescent children.

    Hindsight is 20/20. If I had known that Judge Nottingham would treat me so terribly I never would have filed a lawsuit. But at the time, the Internet was just beginning and I didn’t know how terribly pro se litigants were treated and of course, Nottingham’s prostitution issues weren’t public until late 2007. It was good that we moved because I think we could have been killed if we had stayed. But there was a lot of money involved not just with our house but also with moving our business.

    Obviously I can’t do everything. But what I think I can do is get the Courts to acknowledge that DOJ can’t imprison people without a criminal charge. I am just hoping that that will happen within the next few months instead of my having to go through another appeal. Then once it is determined that DOJ is liable, I want the amount of economic damages to be set to the hearsay value of my lawsuits that DOJ screwed up based on Rule 804(6). If that happens then I will have some working capital to do another justice project.

    Lawsuits don’t have to be decided behind the scenes. I think the Rules of Civil Procedure and the Rules of Evidence are actually fine, they just aren’t strictly enforced. If the rights of pro ses to strict observation of procedural rules are recognized, then the rights of litigants with lawyers to the same will follow.

    I don’t think that pro ses need special rules with the only exception being that there should be a mechanism similar to Rule 11 that will allow a hearing and punishment when the other side files total B.S. that is made up facts and laws.

  44. As I say good luck, you’ve made the best of it so far. You did get out with your life. You know running narcotics for the CIA makes him invulnerable. A possible connection for him. And don’t say his name here.

    Here you say:

    “Lawsuits don’t have to be decided behind the scenes. I think the Rules of Civil Procedure and the Rules of Evidence are actually fine, they just aren’t strictly enforced. If the rights of pro ses to strict observation of procedural rules are recognized, then the rights of litigants with lawyers to the same will follow.”

    No, they don’t have to, but yours was. Accept that.

    And plan for failure. Just opposite what I told my bosses when launching a new product—I told them plan for success. A peculiar company, the Swedish mindset.

  45. artiewhifefox, That is just not true. The laws of god recognize the positive of courts as do the laws of people. The problem is that corrupt forces came to be in power but that doesn’t mean that the forces of corruption will always be in power.

    idealist, I don’t think he was running drugs for the CIA, I think he was just selfish and doing illegal things for his personal financial gain.

    The problem with planning for failure is that it is depressing. To me, it is much less stressful to plan for success. I realize that I was totally “screwed over” but given Judge John D. Bates, it is much less stressful for me to think that he will recognize what DOJ published in the Federal Register, recognize the tolling of the Privacy Act subsection g(5), and basically do the right thing even if it means acknowledging a pro se litigant.

    And if not him there is always the Court of Appeals. Are they really going to rule against their previous rulings?

    DOJ also, an inconsistent agency with some 40,000 employees. They can’t all be schmucks.

  46. Kaysieverding,

    Look, I have never been a litigant, so my expressing an opinion is basicly just being helpul, The guy who happens to hear your plaint when you are chatting on your cell at the coffee counter. How good a source is that.

    To remove the stress, you may or may not have to face the worst things that can happen and say what then?
    What can I pick up with and survive? It makes it less of a life threat if you do that short mental runthrough.
    Two times you happen to get a bureauscrat who is very
    helpful and does what he is supposed to do. Then the next time he doesn’t know you and rebuffs you totally.
    The basic guide is “I got my routine. If I have to call my boss, I am not gonna get that raise, stall, get rid by whatever means,etc.”

    So why should you get any other reception?

    The neighbor, his occupation was postulated only as illustrative of a “connected” person, not his actual one.

    The judge: what are you doing to curry favor or make him realiize that you are somebody that he should favor? Is there anything legal to do? Join his chess club?

    Again, good luck. You know all the printed stuff, but none of the rotten undergrowth, except what you have experienced—so far.

    Is your life empty? Fill it with something else.
    I am a dutch uncle.

  47. You’re not supposed to curry favor with a judge or seek informal contact with him or her. You’re just supposed to lay out the facts and laws and he or she is supposed to rule on that.

    The biggest problem is abuse of Rule 12(b)(6) motions — motions to dismiss for failure to state a claim. All you should have to do is state a recognized cause of action and they should be barred.

    The Courts could also keep the identity of the judge a secret until there is a trial. They could just redact his name from his minute orders.

  48. True.
    Don’t know.
    True, and even during and after trial can identity be known only to the court officials, and then only upon impeachment or misconduct investigations. I have proposed this before here. Using lot assigned non sequential ID numbers for court officials attached to case numbers which ain turn are permanent and publicly known.

  49. Well one thing that was suspicious about my District of Colorado 02-1950 Kay Sieverding v. Kevin Bennett et al. case is that Nottingham wasn’t the original judge assigned to my case. Judge Matsch was, a senior judge. And senior judges can get out of any case with no explanation supposedly, I don’t know all the details.

    Anyway Judge Matsch reassigned my case to Judge Nottingham. It didn’t go through a random reassignment procedure.

    I have some of the attorney bills, since I was ordered to pay them. They show that David Brougham, the lawyer representing Kevin Bennett, the City of Steamboat Springs etc. also billed Lloyds of London. That was because Elizabeth Wittemyer the Colorado prosecutor who prosecuted me without a written statement of probable cause, bought prosecutor’s insurance from Lloyds. The State of Colorado had no record of such insurance, they only showed Lloyds as a reinsurer. Lloyds sells hard to place insurance on line apparently without regulation by the U.S. government.

    So in the attorney bills, on 4/14/03 David Brougham, a partner at Hall & Evans, billed for “confer with Slezak regarding case assignment issues; review fax regarding same.” In September I filed a second paid complaint alleging that Thom Ernst just sent me an email saying Bennett threatened to shoot his family while they touring my extra lot for sale but that Magistrate Schlatter had forbidden me to call the police. That was assigned to Nottingham even though with pro se cases the cases are supposed to be assigned to the same judge assigned to case filed by the same litigant. (An example of differential pro se rules since lawyer filed cases are randomly assigned). Then in October my 02-1950 case was assigned directly to Nottingham with no explanation as to why.

    Anyone can get that bill. The 10th Circuit has it as AP-0517 in my appeal of the attorney fee shifting order, 06-1439. That is free on the 10th Circuit database for opinions. None of the 10th Circuit opinions explains the factual basis for my claims or even what I claimed as a cause of action. They just all refer to an oral hearing the magistrate had before my defendants were even all served and before they filed any response at all to my claims. And there are public records by both Brougham and Magistrate Schlatter that they discussed my case before the hearing. So my theory is that Sclatter, Nottingham, and Brougham were probably meeting every night at the Diamond Cabaret strip club and Brougham was picking up the checks for everyone.

  50. The Police remind me of the stories about NDE people seeing devils looking like people who say follow us you will be safe with us, and then slowly get agitated with the NDE saying to him hurry up.we are almost there. Their attitude gets worse,and worse and end up beating him up gnawing on his spirit. He calls out the name of Jesus. The devils suddenly vanish.. Guess who is behind police?

  51. ArtieWhiteFox,

    You’ll get a chance to peek someday, so give it a break.

    PS Hope I am not plagueing a mental defective, to some degree all religious persons are. Any toes left unstamped. Catcha later.😉

  52. Saw that video about the dumb cop named Moss. One of the weirdest, I must say. But since he had already called in the ticket, and did not “fix” the ticket, he actually committed a lesser crime, didn’t he? I mean, it probably comes off as something like a misdemeanor. Now as to the particular defendant and her speeding ticket, it was probably well worth her while to get all that publicity!

    My main question now: Is Barbie really her name? OH NO! Fact is stranger than fiction!

  53. idealist707, It is a misnomer that a person following Christ is religious. The fact is Jesus is apposed to religious people. Mark 14:1-9 KJV the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. John 12;10 the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
    Sodomite wanted to give worse just like the policeman.
    KJV,Genesis 19 >>. 9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: no eternal fire ring around city.
    Jesus talking to the religious peoiple” Police are like the religious people,and sodomites, and pre flood people too. Hell is the glorified face of Jesus to darkness. Jesus is as far from religious as the east is from the west.
    Matthew 23 >> 13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

    15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

    23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

    25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

    27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    King James Version

  54. Artie,

    how can you say that you are not religious? you cite the same fairy tale as they.

    Scribes and chief priests…..who says they were religious? Ha!

  55. MY spirit is not like them. I am for the people they are against like the zoosexuals, gays, clothing optional, furries not wanting them to have anatomically correct furry suits. How can I be for the religions being against the religions. I see their errors.
    I am a person that teaches religions what they have done wrong.

    Religions have the KJV but do lot teach us the truth therein. Here again is evidence of the devil in people hiding truth, perverting words, taking verses out of context while having KJV in their blood soaked hands. 8 places in KJV says the heart figuratively is to be circumcised not the penis tip at all. Deuteronomy 30:6, Deuteronomy 10:16 ;Jeremiah 4:4 , Jeremiah 9:26; Colossians 2:11-15;Acts 7:51;Leviticus 26:41;Romans 2:29, circumcision is a blood sacrifice. nothing more nothing less.

  56. AWF,

    Wow, where can I join. I do not like circumcision.

    It IS a blood rite. And a damn primitive one. It does not even qualify for medieval!!! Professor JT?

    But I won’t and would not kill the users of it. Cut off your wee-wee if you like. Poor kid. Some days after his birth they want to take away his chief plaything he had to kill time with for 9 months. Let the hair on my palm grow! Leave it alone!

    But all should leave the women alone. I know Somali women are itchBays, but with the guys there how can one say the women have no reason to complain.

    Women need something extra for their trouble.

  57. PS Typical Somali woman complaint:

    “Bring home a 200,000 tonner next tiem. The kids are hungry and I need a new dress. And stop chewing chat. Your face is falling off and your teeth are falling out. Wake up! I know you are there”

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