by Gene Howington, Guest Blogger
I had in interesting argument the other night. Not interesting because of the content precisely. It was old ground about the rationale for being in Iraq and Afghanistan and this person took the position of the post hoc rationalization “to contain Iran” and that – and this was a new one, funny but new – that our reason for being there was based on our need as driven by the hostage crisis of the 70’s. It wasn’t a match against a skilled opponent. He was about as smart and skilled at argumentation as a house plant and that is really an insult to house plants. But what was interesting was when the topic turned to the idea of just wars and ethical relativism. I’ll summarize the just war argument to give some context and then show how ethical relativism came into the conversation because it got me thinking about ethical relativism (and its natural cousin moral relativism). Is it a good idea or a path to anarchy?
Summary of the just war argument:
A’s Primary Contention: We went to war in Iraq to contain Iran because we’re on a 70’s style revenge mission for the hostage taking. (Ed. Note: Seriously. That was the claim.)
B’s Primary Contention: The rationale given the public for invading Iraq was “to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein’s support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.” In the end, there were no WMDs, no support of terrorism, and the Iraqis were a lot better off before we removed the only stabilizing force holding their secular country together and destroyed their infrastructure. The just war would have been to attack those who attacked us on 9/11, the Saudis with help from Afghani terrorist training bases. It would have given us the same benefits as invading Iraq (oil, common border with Iran) and come at a substantially lower cost to materials and troops when combined with an in and out strategy in Afghanistan (which history has proven to be fairly immune to long term occupation because of geographic and societal factors).
A: There is no such thing as a just war. Name one.
B: I can name two. American entry into WWII and the Revolutionary War come to mind, but there are other examples of just war through history.
A: We went to war to make rich men richer.
B: Really. And that is a reason to wage war that is just?
A: I haven’t heard the term “just war” since Medieval History class. You’re a (*#$#($*#head.
B: That’s all very interesting but I think you don’t know what a just war is. %$*($%$.
A: I know there is no such thing.
B: I can think of a couple of examples. Coming to the defense of your allies in the face of outside aggression, in defense of attack or in retribution of an attack by foreign forces.
A: There’s no such thing as a just war. Just depends on your perspective.
B: No. It doesn’t. There are some ethical absolutes.
A: No there aren’t.
B: Saying there aren’t and proving there aren’t are two separate things.
A: You *()$(#)($#) $)#$()#$ ()$#$!
B: That’s still not proving there aren’t, )($#)()@head. Are there are are there no ethical absolutes? Yes or no.
A: That’s a stupid question.
B: It’s not stupid just because you can’t answer it. It’s a simple question.
[Much back and forth of “stupid” and/or ($#_)#@$#% combined with a rebuttal of “non-responsive, try again”.]
A: People make ethical judgements all the time.
B: That’s not what I asked. Are there ethical absolutes or not?
A: Have your ethics changed over time?
B: Yes they have but that is irrelevant to the question here: are there ethical absolutes or not?
A: You’ve got nothing!
B: You saying I’ve got nothing is not the same as you proving I’ve got nothing. Are you an ethical relativist?
A: Give me an example of an ethical absolute.
B: Human life has value. Protecting it is a good thing.
A: That’s true, but I just want to see some people die.
B: Then you are an ethical relativist and we really don’t have much more to discuss.
A: You’re jumping to conclusions.
B: No I’m not. If human life has value except when you “want to see someone die”, then you are an ethical relativist.
The rest of the conversation was basically A drunkenly ranting about how I (B) didn’t know $*(# and that he had me just where he wanted me (on my knees) before he called me a little girl and proclaimed victory. I was very not impressed. I’d say it was embarrassing for him, but he proudly proclaimed that “ignorance was not a problem for him” and that he thought “retrograde drunken Neanderthal” was a compliment. But I digress . . .
It all got me thinking about ethical relativism though.
What is ethical relativism? It is the philosophical theory stating that ethics are relative to the norms of one’s culture; whether an action is right or wrong depends on the ethical and moral norms of the society in which it is practiced. There are no universal ethical or moral standards and the only standards against which a society’s practices can be judged are its own. The implication of this is there can be no common framework for resolving moral disputes or for reaching agreement on ethical matters among members of different cultures. We know from history that this is not the case. Some acts are considered to by universally wrong or right among the human species. Most ethicists reject ethical relativism because while the practices of societies may differ, the fundamental ethical and moral principles underlying these practices do not. Consider cultures where euthanasia is practiced like some Eskimo tribes when parents declare they are ready to die because of old age or illness, their families would kill them directly or leave them on the ice to die at the hands of nature. This would be frowned upon in our culture, but if you look at the underlying principle – taking care of one’s parents – both societies hold this principle as valuable.
Secondly, it’s an important topic because a kind of ethical relativism is encouraged in law schools under the guise of giving all comers adequate representation and ensuring a fair trial. It’s also something you see more often now in public behavior than in the past: rationalizations of bad behavior based on personal desire rather than ethical or moral principle. “I wanted to feel what killing someone felt like,” said 17 year old killer of 9 year old Elizabeth Olten. Truly a sign of someone with a broken ethical compass probably based in mental illness, but it illustrates the first problem with ethical relativism. It injects ego into the equation.
Consequently and concurrently we cannot remove ego from the equation altogether. If the ethical rightness or wrongness of an action depends on a societal norms, then the logical implication is that to be ethical that one must obey the norms of one’s society because deviance would be unethical or immoral. This leads to an interesting conundrum. If a member of a society that believes that racial or sexist practices are ethically wrong but they are permissible within that society, then one must accept those practices as morally right. This view is both oppressive and narrow in promoting unthinking social conformity and leaves no possibility for ethical and/or moral reform or improvement within a society. Consider that a lack of uniform majority though on a matter may not have created an ethical or moral standard to follow with the members of a society holding different views. Consider the example of the United States. Need I say more than “abortion” or “animal testing” or “medical marijuana” to provide examples of such unsettled ethical questions?
One of the strongest arguments against ethical relativism comes from the assertion that universal ethical and/or moral standards can exist even if some practices and beliefs vary among cultures. In other words, it is possible to acknowledge cultural differences and still find that some of these practices and beliefs are wrong. Consider that although the Aztec had a society that was in some ways more advanced that their contemporary European counterparts, that their practice of human sacrifice is simply wrong. Just so, the barbaric treatment of the Jews, Roma, homosexuals and the mentally handicapped by Nazi society is ethically and morally reprehensible regardless of the beliefs of the Nazis. Ethics are an intellectual inquiry into right and wrong through applying critical thought to the underlying reasons of various ethical and/or moral practices and beliefs. Ethical relativism fails to recognize that some societies may have better reasons for holding their views than other societies.
However, although ethical relativism has much going against it, it does remind us to examine and consider that different societies have different ethical and/or moral beliefs and invites us to examine those forces influence within our own culture. The only way to reach universal ethical truths whenever possible is through examining and challenging our own ethical systems by comparing them to other systems.
Can ethical relativism lead to anarchy? When everything is relative, there are no true stable standards, so I think the answer is yes.
Should ethical relativism be discouraged in our educational systems and society as a whole or do you teach it with the proper caveats and perspective to make it a useful tool instead of a dangerous tool?
Is ethical relativism a good thing or a bag thing?
Or is it like most tools dependent upon the user’s intent and application?
What do you think?
~submitted by Gene Howington, Guest Blogger.
Well, Tony and I had a good time anyway.
nick,
Your every reaction to me screams “INTIMIDATED!”
It has since the first time you addressed me over your “mother of the year” gibberish, Mr. I’m A Tough Guy So Don’t Challenge Me.
That is all.
Ciao, Cliff.
mespo,
lol
The Devil is in the details.
Back to Kay’s conundrum. Maybe what she wants to do is both legal and permissible. To borrow a phrase attributed to George H.W. Bush, it is, “not prudent.”
Here is an analogy: I am capable and legal to fly on instruments in a multi-engine airplane. At night. Now, I am getting older, but despite my age, I suspect I can multitask as well as anyone who blogs on this site. However, just because I CAN do it, does not mean, I SHOULD be trying to thread my way through these mountain passes at three or four miles a minute in clouds, fog and rain, making a blind approach into our mountain airport.
Kay, I suggest that while what you want to do may fall within the realm of what is legally possible, does not make it a good idea. You are not doing yourself and your family any favors. Get some counseling, and get a life. Please.
And stop going Godwin on us. No wonder you lose arguments. Going Godwin just makes you look silly as an argumentarian.
Gene/Raf:
Just heard this joke I thought was appropriate for this thread on good and evil.
Seems God was checking on St. Peters’s roll and noticed a farmer, sea captain, and cop were erroneously sent to Hell. God immediately got Satan on the phone (I guess the “Red Phone”) and said to Satan, “Something got fouled up at the gates and you got three of mine.”
Replied Satan, “Great! That’s three more for me and I didn’t even deserve ’em. What could be better for the Cosmic Bad Boy.”
“Now look here, Satan,” said an obviously perturbed Creator of the Universe. ” I’m in no mood to dicker. I want that sod buster, sailor, and sheriff back and I want’ em back NOW.”
“Or what?” said Satan. “You gonna send me Hell again?,” chuckled the Prince of Darkness.
“Nope, I’ll get a lawyer and sue the horns off you,” said God. With that the Devil put down the phone and his laugh was heard through the receiver and all over Heaven.
Motioning to his favorite demon, he said, “Hey Beelzebub, get over here and listen! God says He’s going to get a lawyer and sue us. Where is HE going get one of those? Ha, ha, ha.”
I can understand ethics and I have lots of relatives but I dont see how they mesh into this ethical relativism stuff. Especially uncle Gus.
kaysieverding
1, October 21, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Gene
…….” If I could afford an attorney I would hire one.”
————————————————————
The fact that the access to appropriate and equitable representation in ‘Law’ in this Country is not available, due basely to the socio-economic conditional standards of the practitioners, makes the practice of Law absolutely that of a state of ethical relativism and essentially immoral.
Gene,
I have to remember “assuage” for my next scrabble game! 🙂
Where do you deal w/ schmucks like me? As far as I can see your entire reality is online. And to think I’m intimidated by you is delusional. Saying your smug doesn’t even imply intimidation, it means what I said..you’re smug. Smugness is not intimidating, it’s just reprehensible and pathetic. I’ve seen you intimidate and bully people in this forum. You’ve been a failure trying to do that w/ me. Say your last words which is so important in your strange little world, I’m going to watch some baseball. Ciao, Gino. And “may the force be with you.”
nick,
I’m fairly certain I understand linearity and non-linearity with a much greater depth and breadth than you are capable. Ol’ Barney did just fine with that one bullet, but in reality the better comparison is MacGyver and his Swiss Army knife. Logic is a multifunction tool. I’m sorry but I will not become illogical to assuage your ignorance. If you think that makes me smug? I could really give a damn if you’re intimidated or not. And it’s really pretty obvious you are, no matter how you are going to predictably protest. I’ve been dealing with schmucks like you my entire life. What I’ve learned from that experience is that your feeling threatened by reason and those with superior use of the tool coupled with superior knowledge is entirely your problem, Cliff. That you act like a pseudo-troll is your problem. That you can’t argue for shit is your problem. That you don’t think well when you think at all is your problem. In short, your problem is you. You can project it on to me all you like because neither me nor anyone important to me cares about your problem.
Carry on.
I’m not unwilling to hire an attorney I just can’t afford one and also I don’t see them advertising with the expertise I need i.e. Privacy Act, Section 1983, or even False Light Publicity for an individual. I don’t believe a shrink can help me because my distress is not internally caused it is externally caused. That is why I engage in self help to the best of my ability to get what I need which is relief in court. It’s like I am putting my arm in a sling and trying to crawl down the mountain to the road. It’s not fun but its better than taking pills and dying.
But if a lawyer wants to learn the Privacy Act through practice they should contact me.
Thanks, pete.
And that’s a pretty good choice coming from Heinlein.
Gene, You do realize this is a non linear world in which we live? I’ve seen folks brighter than yourself, but maybe not as smug, drive themselves crazy trying to apply logic to situations that simply don’t fit into that box. If we were to take “troll” “strawman” and “logic” from your holster you would have one less bullet than Barney Fife.
raff,
Thanks!
Gene
it seems you’ve come up with a rhetorical rorschach here. great thread.
as far as relative or moral absolutes go i’ll stick with Heinlein
women and children first
Mespo,
You musical smartass, you.
LOL
Kay,
I’ve already said you have a right to represent yourself (and that is a Constitutionally protected right), but that doing so is a bad idea. Hire an attorney, Kay. That is the only advice you are going to get. I don’t even read your long diatribes anymore.
Hire. An. Attorney.
The only other advice I have is to say is simply humane.
“What Otteray Scribe said” in re counseling.
And I’m not saying it to be mean. You are obviously in distress and if you are unwilling or unable to hire an attorney to help you? Maybe the other profession can help you. There is no shame in it and people who think there is are simply ignorant.
You should really consider it.
nick,
Accepted … but there was no need as I figured it was a typo. 🙂
Gene
I’m glad you don’t think I was trolling. Since you are familiar with Federal Sentencing Guidelines then you know that there aren’t any sentencing guidelines for pro se litigants who aren’t accused of a crime. So you and will you please just agree with me that
I have a right to represent myself in Federal Civil proceedings if I want or need to and to get the same published Rules of Procedure as any other case even though having a good lawyer is better.
Just say this please so I can stop typing about this here.
Tony C.,
Perhaps I am more of an Absolutist than you in that I think the absolute moral stance against killing another human being initially stems from our species fear of extinction which is why we don’t eat our newborns as is done by other species.
That’s about as basic/absolute as I can get and part of what I mean by wired into our DNA.