-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger
Northwest Rankin High School is a public high school located in Flowood, Mississippi. On Tuesday April 9th, a student, representing Pinelake Baptist Church, addressed an assembly at the school and showed a video of two young men who had been “saved” from drugs and sex. Several students reported the mandatory assembly, during school hours, to the Appignani Humanist Legal Center (AHLC). AHLC coordinator William Burgess sent a letter of condemnation to principal Charles Frazier.
Rankin County School District released a statement saying the assembly was not mandatory:
Our students have the freedom to organize student-led and planned meetings and the assembly in question was student-led and organized.
However, the AHLC letter claims that the assembly was mandatory and an e-mail, shown here with names redacted, from Frazier to faculty members bears this out. As the AHLC letter notes: “Making attendance voluntary would not cure the constitutional infirmity.” This is borne out by the Court’s 
opinion in Lee v. Weisman (1992), where J. Kennedy wrote in the opinion of the Court: “the government may no more use social pressure to enforce orthodoxy than it may use more direct means.” The school can take no part any private student meetings promoting religion.
The AHLC letter notes that having a student deliver the presentation does not “absolve the school and its officials from liability.” That the presentation was school-sponsored and held on school property during class-time is sufficient for a violation of the Establishment Clause. The violation is exacerbated by Frazier’s promoting student attendance of the assembly as a requirement.
The AHLC letter also claims that several students, who tried to leave, were harassed by a principal and told to sit back down. One has to admire the students’ courage, in the face of official intimidation, in attempting to escape the proselytizing.
In her concurrence in Lynch v. Donnelly (1984), J. O’Connor wrote:
The purpose prong of the Lemon test asks … whether, irrespective of government’s actual purpose, the practice under review in fact conveys a message of endorsement or disapproval. An affirmative answer to either question should render the challenged practice invalid.
Clearly, school officials used the authority of their office to require and maintain attendance at a Christian proselytizing meeting. This is a blatant example of Christian privilege and a violation of the Establishment Clause. The Rankin County School District better rein in Frazier, or they’ll have to use taxpayer funds to pay for defense lawyers in a civil suit.
The intent of the Establishment Clause is found in the words of the founders, whose envisioned a “perfect separation” between church and state. The progression towards that “perfect separation” requires constant vigilance. History shows us that those in power will use that power to maintain their dominance. New converts are essential for religions to maintain the status quo. Let religion obtain those converts using the persuasion by argument, rather than the coercion by authority. The historical predominance of the latter testifies to the ineffectiveness of the former.
H/T: Hemant Mehta.
It doesn’t make sense to me either, raff. Then again, I do suffer from a crippling excess of logic and reason. Magical thinking just doesn’t cut it for me.
Gene,
Why would Jesus want us to ignore science? If I believe in God making man in his image, how can he make a scientist to use his brain and then not want us to believe him?
“Sigh! Delusion is rampant!”
Apparently so.
“Evolution is a pseudo-science, it is not fact and that is a fact, It deals in some facts but cannot prove its basic foundation premises.”
Wrong. Evolution is a process described by science and it can be proven by repeatable verifiable experimentation. It is described by the fundamental modality of scientific exploration. For example, breeding fruit flies for specific traits is an experiment that proves evolution. It is also observable in nature in both the fossil record and in speciation of plants and animals such as the cichilds found in Lake Victoria which all spring from a common ancestor but have a multitude of variations. Here’s what some experts on biology have to say about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV4_lVTVa6k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Ctl9nzEqs
The other 22 parts of this series can be seen on YouTube. They are all equally critical of the pseudo-science of creationism though. Sorry.
“It is a origins theory, just like creationism and the self evidence of this atheist indoctrination process by the state over many many years in schools is proven in the claims that its not a human religious doctrine.”
Gibberish. The origin of evolutionary theory (and just because it’s called a theory only means it’s incomplete, not wrong) rests on the observation, empirical data and experimentation.
“Ummm time to start holding hands and singing our little atheist mantra…. “Evolution is a fact, evolution is a fact, I will not hear any alternative, for those that state it must be insane and completely crazy…. The state told me its all fact and this is what really happened, so it must be true. I learn’t it in school!” Oh deary me, church and state once again holding hands……”
Atheism has nothing to do with it. Science is science. It is based on the scientific method which is a method consisting of systematic observation, measurement, and experiments, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses. It is the opposite of belief.
“Both sides begin with an act of faith,” blah blah blah.
No. Science has nothing to do with faith. Creationism begins with an act of faith and ends with an act of faith. Evolution is science based on systematic observation, measurement, and experiments, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
“How about we teach our children actual provable facts, real science, maths”
Like say . . . evolution? Which is accepted as scientific fact by 99% of the scientific community based on the evidence. And some of those scientists are even *gasp* Christians.
“and English in schools and leave all divine and non divine religious dogma to the parents to choose how they wish to indoctrinate their own.”
If you want to raise your children to be scientific illiterates who operate off of wishful thinking instead of empirical fact, then that is your choice, but it is a great disservice to the children and to society.
Seriously!
There is truly a distinction between valid science and false or pseudo science. Real Science is concerned with the observation and classification of facts within the parameters of general laws and is done chiefly by induction and hypothesis (again with the parameters of verifiable laws). Evolution contradicts many known laws, like biogenesis and the second law of thermodynamics. Look up any dictionary on science and they all basically state the following “testable, repeatable, experimentation, verifiable and observable. If the subject cannot be observed, repeated and verified and subject to experimentation, then it is not science. Wow guess what evolution has never been observed, repeated, verified or been the subject of experimentation, therefore it cannot be a science but a theory. The issue is not religion vs science but religion vs religion, Umm hello church and state question all over again. As to whether atheism has anything to do with evolution, it is fact that the theory of evolution was invented by atheists as a means of combating the dominant religious pseudo-science views of the day. Many of the theories of evolution have had to evolve as they are discovered to be untrue. Darwin stated that Blacks are less evolved than other races like whites. Wow, so how come your president is black, i would be asking for a refund if Darwins gibberish were actually the case, because he is, according to Darwin, the father of evolution, being black – inferior? Evolution scientists (note the word scientists) rely heavily on the accuracy of their measurement systems like C dating etc said 100 years ago the world was 70, 000 years old then 50 years ago 3.5 million and 15 odd years ago 4.5 million and lets not forget that wonderful chestnut we all came from monkeys, despite pigs having a closer DNA similarity. So considering that students were taught all these so called facts and proofs which turned out according to later research and science to be false, exactly how is the idea of evolution anything other than just that a theory, constantly evolving a changing. Notice Gravity does not change nor does the theory of gravity, so please lets not use that rehashed record. Oh and lets not forget the growing speculations of multi-verse theory and many other modern atheist scientific theories that place current big bang theory in jeopardy. Yes clearly it is a science and not a load of gibberish. Brilliantly marketed, hence its current control over the scientific community, you know via schools and indoctrination over the last 70 odd years, breeding new evolutionists from childhood, despite its many clear flaws and I have only just touched on them. Too many contradictions and revisions of the theory have occurred by scientists preaching evolution and yet changing the facts as they decide when and where to………. Science is provable, verifiable, and repeatable and not constantly evolving and being changed when a old part of the theory is shown to be false. What else can I say, lets stop trying to prove the unprovable just so we can try and prove another beliefs to be wrong by saying science says. Evolution is a false prophet at best and a downright conspiracy at worst. Let it go and believe it personally but not in schools. Schools are about learning how to think not brainwashed what to think by modern religious dogma.
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 04:37:00 +0000 To: queveritas@hotmail.com
“If the subject cannot be observed, repeated and verified and subject to experimentation, then it is not science. Wow guess what evolution has never been observed, repeated, verified or been the subject of experimentation, therefore it cannot be a science but a theory.”
Drew,
Reading your words is like the old con man joke: Who are you going to believe me……or your lying eyes?” Everything you said about evolution in your comment and in the above paragraph is wrong.
“Wow! You didn’t even answer any of the real questions regarding evolution and why it is flawed and constantly having to be revised.”
Those weren’t real questions since they were all factually incorrect. You are literally living in an alternate reality and it is impossible to get through to you to at least establish a grounds for discussion. I truly hope you are happy and safe in your contented bliss, but you must understand that because you live in a nother reality contentedly, that is no reason for us to humor you.
Gene,
you beat me too it. The idea that evolution is a religious idea is crazy. I agree that there is no place for so-called creationism in public schools. If you want to teach that nonsense in your private school, be my guest.
Evolution is a scientific fact. It’s not a religion or even a religious dogma. Creationism, on the other hand, is simply a concocted fiction and has nothing to do with science or facts and has everything to do with religious dogma. The reason creationism is not part of the vast majority of science curriculum as taught in the Western world is because it flatly isn’t science. Nor should it be taught as part of a proper education except within the context of comparative religious studies or other like sociology courses. If you choose to disbelieve the provable, that is your choice but it is an adoption of willful ignorance. Willful ignorance harms the self as does any act of delusion and self-deception. As Marcus Aurelius noted, “it is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance that does harm.” It was truthful when he said it. It is truthful today.
Sigh! Delusion is rampant! Evolution is a pseudo-science, it is not fact and that is a fact, It deals in some facts but cannot prove its basic foundation premises. It is a origins theory, just like creationism and the self evidence of this atheist indoctrination process by the state over many many years in schools is proven in the claims that its not a human religious doctrine. Ummm time to start holding hands and singing our little atheist mantra…. “Evolution is a fact, evolution is a fact, I will not hear any alternative, for those that state it must be insane and completely crazy…. The state told me its all fact and this is what really happened, so it must be true. I learn’t it in school!” Oh deary me, church and state once again holding hands……
Both sides begin with an act of faith, then look at the various facts of origins theory through those rose colored glasses of their own beliefs. I have nothing more to say. Sadly, blind leading the blind and enforcing their own religious dogma – Atheist dogma in this case.
How about we teach our children actual provable facts, real science, maths and English in schools and leave all divine and non divine religious dogma to the parents to choose how they wish to indoctrinate their own.
I have found the debate interesting and the responses even more so. So far I can only see a “he said, she said”, by “alleged eyewitnesses” on both sides. I am sure a legal hearing will discover the actual truth. Being an Aussie who has only visited California and New York I cannot make any cultural comments on the South, what beliefs are dominant and so on. Also I will not get into a discussion on the Constitution and various amendments, their intent and context from the original document to interpretive law regarding the original document. I will leave that to US lawyers to debate over 🙂 What I can say is “power corrupts”. No belief system is without that. If one is to assume that the school overextended its authority and this is unconstitutional, then the school needs a smack on the bum! On the other hand both Evolution and Creationism are faith based pseudo-sciences. No neither can prove their interpretation of the same facts and both need to start from a point of utter conviction in the origin of God or the utter conviction in the fairy tale of God, that there is no God and so life cannot have come from the bible “fairytale”. And yet Evolution is almost entirely taught around the Western world, especially the USA and Creationism is not. As I see it if there is meant to be a separation between belief and politics (you know the old Church and State chestnut) neither should be taught and only actual science, repeatable, observable etc and no origins theories, which both are just that – theories on how we all came to be. Secondly Roe vs Wade should never have happened. Human life is transitional. Pre born human, to post born human, post born human to child, child to adult, adult to old person! Form and function of the human life changes remarkably all the way through the process of life. But at no stage is the human ever non human. To murder a human, no matter what transitional state they are in is a violation of human sanctity and violation of a the next generations citizenry. To decide that human life is only potential life based on a capacity for independence of function and quality of that independence is a theory that is NAZI in conception and practice. Social evolution a humanist religious doctrine, Atheist-humanist in development and current form. For example Babies inhibit the ideal construction of the feminist world view and also the overpopulation eradication world views. Since humanist-atheism declares, (without proof, just like any divine religion, which also have no actual proof either), that God is a myth and a fairy tale invented by men that looked up at the sun and needed to explain it, they by doing – live by faith (no not the same form of faith but still faith – i.e. “the overabundant conviction in their own view without suitable proof or evidence”. And yet abortion, which ignores the actual presence of human life even if that life is transitioning and rather presumes that human life can under some circumstances be eradicated when the women, the state sanction it, is enforced as a right by law, but this is a humanist belief based on humanist doctrines. If there was a true separation of church and state neither evolution/creationism and abortion would be tolerated as these are examples of church (that is “belief”) being shoved down the throats of those of different beliefs. And yet I do not hear these being discussed or apologized for as inherently unconstitutional, using the same separation of church and state arguments I have read here. Consistency and fair and rational minds cannot allow these fundamentalist humanist doctrines being shoved down the throats of other religions. When I hear more about a unbiased and uncompromising defense regarding the eradication of church and state. When I see the schools teaching reading, writing and arithmetic instead of socialization and origins ideology and when I see the Hippocratic concept of life (yes that is right, those crazy pre-atheist/humanist/christian Greeks with their fanciful notions) instead of enforced humanist social Darwinist and NAZI religious doctrines in the law of abortion on the right to kill humans based on a set of predetermined situational ethics, then I will be more inclined to worry about a school’s student body speaking about their own particular brand of faith. Until then I guess the proverbial happens and we should all have thick enough skin to get over it! I had evolution shoved down my throat at school and although I object to someone else telling me what I should or should not believe, I am more than capable of making up my own mind I just accepted when in “Rome do it Rome’s way. If that school is more pro one faith than another well I guess that is just what you have to expect. Maybe its the tough skin of the Aussies but you blokes over there come from a colonial frontier past as well so I am surprised this is such as shock to you that those with the power enforce their won religious biases, Atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Communist and so on. In short many atheists don’t want freedom of religion if it contradicts theirs anymore than any other religion want their power base compromised or threatened. I wouldn’t mind so much the pointing out of hypocrisy against Christians and there are plenty of examples to dig up if the same hypocrisy was not so self evident and yet so the atheist indoctrination is so entrenched that they cannot see where their own hypocrisy lies. Contradictions and bias and basic irrational stupidity are self evident to any rational mind capable of seeing introspectively and seeing where their own beliefs have flaws and contradictions. Something I have noticed crosses all beliefs, both Christian and Atheist. Ignorance is a world wide phenomenon and not just inherent in divine based religions as I witness more and more in humanist based religions as they proselytize through evolution, social media and generally speaking, through state run schools. To the children I impart this wisdom, you stick to your guns and beliefs and do not let anyone, government, professor or teacher and especially lawyers and accountants, (God save us from these meddling busybodies) tell you what you must believe. If you think God is a fairy-tale so be it, if you believe in God don’t be pressured otherwise. As the poem by Kipling – If states “If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too;” In other words keep the conviction of your beliefs without feeling so insecure that you have to supplant or legally suppress their beliefs so that you feel safe in yours, then as the next generation you will be far better off than those that have come before. Just my two cents worth 🙂
Lewis Black talks about the Old Testament:
Americans United:
Mississippi Burning: School Officials Coerced Students Into A Revival Meeting – And Now They’re Being Sued
School officials are now claiming the events were student-sponsored, student-led and voluntary, but the facts seem to tell a different story.
According to the legal complaint, Frazier sent an email to all faculty on April 9 ordering them to send all members of the senior class to a school hall for the religious event.
Said the principal’s message: “Sorry for the late notice. All seniors will need to report to the [Performing Arts Building] during Cougar Connection. They should report directly from the 5th block. Thanks.”
Hmmm. Doesn’t sound too voluntary to me.
Even worse, students were not told the subject of the assembly. When some realized it was an inappropriate proselytizing event, they tried to leave but were prevented from doing so by a school truancy officer, as well as teachers and parents who were present for the preaching.
Why does that not surprise me that all the so called Christians are lying through their teeth. I would think that they would be ashamed to testify for Christ as being shown to be liars and cheats. That is why when somebody says that they are a born again Christian. I put my hand on my wallet, and my back against the wall.
Nal,
I also notice there is a video record of the events. People everywhere should know by now that practically ever teenager on the planet has a camera-equipped phone and knows how to use it.
Mr. Walker, what Nal was getting at in his last comment above, is that no lawyer would risk lying to a Federal Court in an affirmative pleading. Ergo, the lawyer who made that filing has the means to back up the claim.
One has to wonder if Mr. Walker in all his self-proclaimed self-study, has bothered to read the words of Justice Hugo Black in
Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0330_0001_ZO.html
KWalker,
The facts asserted in the filing and the comments of direct participants made here all seem to belie your anecdotal counterpoint.
As for being called to “share your faith”, you – as in everyone who thinks proselytizing is a good idea – should all learn the common courtesy to only do so when asked. Most people simply want you to leave them alone when it comes to matters of their choice in faith and if they are curious, they’ll ask for your thoughts of their own volition. This methodology seems to work quite well with the preponderance of world religions and it avoids unnecessary conflict. Proselytizing is a particularly intrusive and obnoxious habit that seems to be particular to certain sects of Christianity and Islam. Neither Hindus, Jainists, Jews, Sikhs nor Buddhists proselytize and yet there is no shortage of adherents for any of those faiths. I don’t think that the fact that Christians and Muslims are also the most likely to go to war or commit violence over their beliefs is a coincidence to their being the predominant proponents of proselytizing. It also reeks of insecurity. If “your God” is so appealing and so absolutely right, then a sales job or forced conversion done by humans would be entirely not required. A god by definition would not need your help in spreading “their word”. So perhaps the fault lay with those who would proselytize without being asked.
Just a suggestion.
Mike Spindell, sorry you had a bad experience growing up. I grew up in a town with a large Jewish community. Our grammar school holiday celebration shows would alternate every year. One year we would do a Christmas theme, the next would be a Hanukkah theme. While I was not Jewish, I learned things about the religion from my Jewish friends. (Always envious of seven days of gifts instead of only one. You think that way when you are 8) I had friends of several religions and never thought anything about it. Our friendships where not based on our religion. I did think it was strange that there was no problem with me going with my friend into her Catholic church, but her religion would not permit her to enter the Dutch Reform church I was attending at the time. Our class said the Lord’s Prayer in the morning, but I remember the Catholic children did not say the ending. I don’t remember why, but nobody was ever forced to participate. I guess I was lucky.
On the subject of the article. If parents want their children to be taught religion in school, they need to send them to a religious school, or home school them. Both are an option in this country.
OS,
Great response to Mr. Walker. It is interesting that if it isn’t in the document, it must not be real!
“It is not up to the students to overcome the social pressure and object or try to leave. It is up to the government (school officials) not to place the students in such a situation to begin with.” – Nal
Bingo.
Reblogged this on An Open-Minded Journey and commented:
Crazy fundies strike again!
KWalker:
It is not up to the students to overcome the social pressure and object or try to leave. It is up to the government (school officials) not to place the students in such a situation to begin with. As I noted in the original post.
According to the lawsuit that Gene linked to:
During the presentation, some students attempted to stand up and leave upon discovering the nature of the assembly, but, according to M.B., “they were literally barred from exiting by teachers.”
Making a false representation in a complaint is a serious problem for the filing attorney.
KWalker,
“What you encountered was probably not true Christianity.”
Ah, the tell.
KWalker,
“One thing that struck me that everyone I spoke to, whether I knew them to be Christians or not, stated that not one person who claimed to feel their rights had been violated or who claimed to be offended made any attempt to leave, speak up in protest, or take any other step that the law allows them to do. Not one.”
That’s not what the complaint states:
45. Indeed, the presentation was mandatory and faculty and parents stood near the exit door, preventing students from leaving.
48. The School’s truancy officer, Jeff White (“Officer White”), harassed several students who attempted to leave and told them to sit back down.
49. Many students thought the presentation was inappropriate and felt that it discriminated against their beliefs.
57. Before the presentation started, M.B. and a few of her friends attempted to go to the library or another classroom instead but they were prevented from doing so by Officer White.
65. During the presentation, some students attempted to stand up and leave upon discovering the nature of the assembly, but, according to M.B., “they were literally barred from exiting by teachers.”
gbk I guess that lying for your religion is not only a so called Muslim “virtue”. Since I live in the South, I know these kinds of folks much too well, which is why I really dislike the SBC. Apart from being founded to promote and extend slavery and promote segregation.
Don Knotts as God. LOL
I can just read it in the Bible:
Romans 12:19 “And Barney said, Opie, never take revenge. Leave that to me, SNIFF the righteous anger of The Law of the Land. For the county code says, Vengeance is mine! I will pay them back with this bullet in my pocket. So sayeth the law SNIFF”
KWalker sez: “I’ve spent years studying history and government on my own and in school and have studied such under the most liberal and the most conservative. I’m aware of the writings of Jefferson, but they are simply that: writings. The First Amendment allows for freedom of religion, but does not mention separation of church and state.”
************************************
Therein lies the problem, Mr. Walker. You studied on your own. Apparently you are unwilling to pay attention to people who have graduated from top tier law schools and understand how all the footnotes and case law applies to explain and tie together the meaning of the original document. This is a law blog, and not just any law blog at that. It has been ranked the #1 legal opinion law blog on the Internet. When you argue with Gene, to just take one example, expect to have your layman’s butt handed to you. He actually went to law school. Religion is faith and opinion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and no one is telling you how to worship or not worship whatever you want. By the same token, you have no legal or moral right to tell others what to believe with regard to religion.
My first European ancestor (that we know about) to these shores was a Huguenot. He got out of France about one jump ahead of the authorities who wanted to either hang him or burn him at the stake for not believing in the official religion of the state. That made him an outlaw. The lesson was not lost on him or those that followed. State sponsored religion can be dangerous to your health.