UCLA Students Declare “Illegal Immigrant” To Be Racist And Discriminatory

Ucla_logoDespite the obvious free speech concerns, UCLA’s undergraduate student government unanimously passed a resolution  last week to declare that  any use of the term “illegal immigrant” is now deemed racist and offensive.  It is an example of how anti-discrimination policies are cutting deeply into free speech.  Millions of people in this country are indeed here illegally.  While many would prefer to use “undocumented workers,”  many others believe that these individuals are illegal by definition and should not be allowed to circumvent immigration laws.  It is a worthy debate with arguments on both sides. However, I am very uncomfortable with students (who historically have been voiced for free speech) declaring that use of this descriptive term is now considered racist or prejudicial.

The resolution, entitled “Drop the I-Word,” stated:

“[W]e are aware that certain racially derogatory language used in media, political discourse and other institutional settings has historically bolstered the foundation for racially harmful actions, including racial profiling practices, punitive policies targeting socially marginalized groups, hate crimes and violence . . . the use of the term illegals (the ‘I-word’) and its derivatives when referring to people dehumanizes and divides communities, contributing to punitive and discriminatory actions aimed primarily at immigrants and communities of color . . . undocumented students at UCLA and across the UC have expressed their concerns and fear with the recent appointment of Janet Napolitano, former US Secretary of Homeland Security, as the new University of California President…”

The students also declared “Journalists have an obligation to use neutral language that promotes democratic dialogue and upholds professional ethics and standards, and the term illegals is incorrect and inaccurate usage, as well as unfair and offensive.” Some news organizations have agreed not to use the term while others have objected that the status of many of these individuals is by statute “illegal.”

My concern is that such declarations chill speech by declaring certain words to be de facto racist or prejudicial. We have seen recently students leading fights to limit speech, including the recently successful campaign of Jewish French students to punish people for speech on the Internet. While many prefer to use “undocumented workers,” others find that description as inaccurate and want to refer to the illegal status of the individuals as lacking entry papers or permission to remain in the country.

What do you think?

81 thoughts on “UCLA Students Declare “Illegal Immigrant” To Be Racist And Discriminatory

  1. B.S……….. Students passing legislation doesn’t change reality!!! Illegals……. Get the F**K out!!!!

  2. “others find that description as inaccurate and want to refer to the illegal status of the individuals as lacking entry papers or permission to remain in the country.”

    Yep. Euphemistic language helps no one but those seeking to obscure meaning. Illegal means against the law. Immigrant means a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country. The term illegal immigrant is accurate and descriptive, not racist and discriminatory. It would apply no matter the person’s race. “Mexican” is not a race. It’s a nationality. A WASP from the U.K. here with no papers would be just as much an illegal immigrant as a Hispanic Mexican here without papers.

    PC language stupidity strikes again.

  3. DEB,

    Exactly how did your folks get here? Ellis Island…. Mine on my dads side came over as property owners…. My moms side we indentured servants… Why does a new person to this country affect you?

  4. Gene,

    What this language does is make them a specific status…. Sure there are proper channels to go through… But for a lot if folks…. It’s I got mine screw you attitude…. Regardless of how it’s stated…..

  5. I agree with the sentiment that using the term “illegal” portrays these illegal immigrants in a negative light, but illegal is not only accurate, but the most accurate term available. What we need are changes to the law so any of these illegal immigrants can go to the immigration office and get on a path toward citizenship. Then we would not be having these silly arguments about what to call them.

  6. The irony does not escape me. Latecomers to this continent came here a few hundred years ago. Then the newcomers tell a people whose forebears settled the place more than fifteen thousand years ago, they are here illegally.

  7. I saw this coming a couple years ago. Now, PC folks who know me, know not to try and change my language. However for those who don’t, living in the PC Capital of the world[Madison], when I say “illegal immigrant,” I would get that classic PC condescension look and then hear, “undocumented worker.” I then ask, what if they’re not working? Are they undocumented unworkers.

    There is no one more supportive of Mexicans in this country, illegal or otherwise. I would love to support a program where they get immediate citizenships if we’re allowed to deport 17 million deadbeat citizens. But, they are here illegally and being the grandson of 4 legal immigrants, I know the difference.

  8. There is a negative connotation in ‘illegal.’ If we had no welfare state, no minimum wage and sound money there would be no barriers to welcome workers. Meanwhile, back in reality, they are technically ‘illegal.’

  9. Um… they “should” be viewed negatively and discriminated against…. they are here illegally. They thumb their noses at US immigration law every day they wake up and choose to continue violating the rules…

    If such a status becomes known to me, or when discussing them in an abstract way… I certainly discriminate against people who are blatantly evading and breaking the law. *shrug* Nothing racist or unfair about that…

    I’m not seeing how the term illegal fosters “racism” though, or how using a different term would change a racist’s viewpoint.

    *eh… kids. They sometimes do dumb things.

  10. I had an experience in Rome, GA where I had to take a cab back to the airport. The cab driver did not speak a word of English, but I speak enough Spanish so I got to where I needed to go. I think it was a safe assumption to say that the driver had NO US license, and was here illegally. So I told the airport FBO, to call the police and check this guy out. Hopefully, he was arrested and deported ASAP since he was violating multiple laws. Of course, these rather ignorant students think that our laws do not apply to illegals. He was also a lousy driver too.

    The Daily Bruin could increase its readership and educate the students, which is of course the role for a campus newspaper, by having a contest to rename criminal activities that do not prejudice people against them unfairly. Drug dealers can become undocumented pharmacists, car thieves can become undocumented car owners, bank robbers will become undocumented account holders, and the list is almost endless and more importantly entertaining.

  11. Students were historically for free speech in the ages of war and the draft and legitimate global conflict, simply because students were liberals who opposed these things. In today’s world, what do young liberal students have to oppose? Not war, their president is the warlord. No, rather “social injustice.” Which essentially means the existence the GOP and of Fox News. Thus, speech control now serves their aims because all the perceived “great injustices” of the world center around a lack of thought control and PC speech rules.

  12. Amazing how the definition of a “law” changes things….used to be if you couldn’t walk a straight line, you were drunk, then we got measurements of drunkenness….at one time you could be .08 and you were “ok”, then the “law” changes…bingo, now your drunk & a criminal…

    Or if your Rita Mirembe Revell, Grand Daughter to ex-President Ron Regan, you can have a special session of Congress to put you at the top of the immigration list…(while bumping the bottom person off)…and become a “legal” citizen…..imagine that!

    So if the “law” changes for ‘illegal aliens’ then they could be regular immigrants like the rest of our ancestors….or would there still be people calling them criminals?!?!?

  13. Meanwhile, bans on free speech are going the other way in Canada. The valid and accurate term Israeli apartheid has been banned from use at certain colleges and universities, with “punishment” (read: harassment) for those who do. The group Students Against Israeli Apartheid (SAIA) has been banned from several campuses and falsely labelled as “anti-semetic”.

  14. This is how a country goes down. This generation has learned that certain speech should be prohibited. The next will take it one step further and as the commercial used to go and so on and so on and so on……
    (as to the illegal status, I notice from the comments so fra no one has a word to say about the employers who hire these folk. No jobs for them then there is no reason to come here illegally.)

  15. And I’m really tired of that “my ancestors” crap. Welcome to 21st Century America, and leave that 17th, 18th, and 19th century crap behind.

    I’m sure about 99 and 44/100ths percent of the lib-tards screaming amnesty would have a stroke if someone cut in line in front of them at Whole Foods.

  16. leejcaroll,

    “I notice from the comments so fra no one has a word to say about the employers who hire these folk.”

    They should be penalized out of business. They only do so to avoid paying minimum/fair wages and taxes. We need business in this country. We don’t need that kind of business.

  17. Gene agreed.
    The big and the small. Reminds me of the comments on the post about Deen, racists have no problem hiring African americans to look after their children, too many wealthy, and not so wealthy, have no problem hiring cheap labor (read “illegals”) to watch over their kids.

  18. From Martinez v Regents (9/15/08):

    Defendants prefer the term “undocumented immigrants.” However, defendants do not cite any authoritative definition of the term and do not support their assertion that the terms “undocumented immigrant” and “illegal alien” are interchangeable. We consider the term “illegal alien” less ambiguous. Thus, under federal law, an “alien” is “any person not a citizen or national of the United States.” (8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(3).) A “national of the United States” means a U.S. citizen or a noncitizen who owes permanent allegiance to the United States. (8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(22).) Under federal law, “immigrant” means every alien except those classified by federal law as nonimmigrant aliens. (8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(15).) “Nonimmigrant aliens” are, in general, temporary visitors to the United States, such as diplomats and students who have no intention of abandoning their residence in a foreign country. (8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(15)(F), (G); Elkins v. Moreno (1978) 435 U.S. 647, 664-665 [55 L.Ed.2d 614, 627-628] [under pre-1996 law, held the question whether nonimmigrant aliens could become domiciliaries of Maryland for purposes of in-state college tuition was a matter of state law].) The federal statutes at issue in this appeal refer to “alien[s] who [are] not lawfully present in the United States.” (8 U.S.C. §§ 1621(d), 1623.) In place of the cumbersome phrase “alien[s] who [are] not lawfully present,” we shall use the term “illegal aliens.”

  19. Arizona has a law the intent of which is to punish businesses that hire illegal aliens, but in practice it has been largely ineffective. (I’ve read that the law was then-Gov and former Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano’s idea. The idea was then adopted by other democrats because they thought the republicans were too beholden to business and so would never approve the law, but the dems were wrong.)

  20. What we have here is a failure to communicate.

    Under the Rule of Law, “illegal immigrant” is a non-normative descriptor, but for those who Rule by Law it is a pejorative to incite action.

  21. Since it’s supposed we can no longer use Prez Ike’s phrase Wet Back,

    And they wish we no longer use the phrase Illegal Alien or Illegal immigrant, I suggest we call them as they are “Economic Refugees”

    We should be calling on congress to help these Economic Refugees by arming & training them to go back to Mexico & take their nation back from the lunatic sociopath mafia Wallst Bank/Insurance Trash!

  22. Atnor wrote: “they “should” be viewed negatively and discriminated against…. they are here illegally. They thumb their noses at US immigration law every day they wake up and choose to continue violating the rules…”

    I guess you don’t personally know these illegals. Many of them were brought here by parents when they were children. This is the only home they know. They go to the immigration office, but are kept in perpetual hold status as an illegal. They are not thumbing their noses at US immigration. They are saying, “I want to have a driver’s license and work like everybody else.” Immigration says no, we have to send you back. But they never do. There is no home to send them to. This is their home.

    The immigration system if the most broken of all our governmental systems. The way to fix the problem is when there are enough Congressmen and Senators and the President to agree to have a path of legality for everyone here in this country. Too many people are screaming to secure the border first, so nothing gets done. No reason why all solutions and concerns cannot be done at the same time.

  23. If US companies say they can’t find legal US workers let them hire “Economic Refugees” but force them to report them, pay 3 times the minimum wage & seize their entire operation if they get caught not complying.

  24. I do agree that the student newspaper should not do anything to infringe upon free speech, but the term illegal aliens has taken on a new meaning and is used by some as a derogatory term, without knowing the actual status of the party or parties being discussed. I would like to know how any of us really know if our relatives came here legally? Have we all checked the records to see our relative coming in legally and later becoming a citizen?
    I agree with Gene that the reason most illegal aliens cross a border is for employment and a better life. Many times the employer looks the other way so that they can pay this person sub-standard salaries. The illegal employers need to go to jail.

  25. Oky1 wrote: “force them to report them, pay 3 times the minimum wage & seize their entire operation if they get caught not complying.”

    I say get rid of the minimum wage and let people work for whatever the employer and worker agree upon. No need to make employers report the workers. Fix the laws so people who are able to come here can have a work visa and path to citizenship if desired.

  26. I think they’re really trying to get at a different problem than the one they are actually reaching. It is the all too common assumption that those who are from, or whose families are from, central or south america have entered the country illegal that is racist. I’m from the UK, but it never seems to occur to anyone that I might have entered the country illegally. Even if those making race-based assumptions in applying the descriptive label stop using that particular phrase, the new descriptive phrase will simply be applied on the basis of race by those making that assumption.

    In any event, “undocumented” isn’t accurate, so hardly an improvement. Some professor, who I should credit but I don’t recall where I got the information, suggested “unauthorized migrant.”

  27. David,

    The US already has a legal way for immigration.

    I, as one of approx 300 million people of the USA, “We the People”, own my One Share/One Stake of USA Inc!!!!!!!!!!

    Each of us Own One Share!

    Shareholders, or as we are Stakeholders, we are Owed our Profit.

    Now I hate it the Queen of England’s BP destroyed My Gulf of Mexico.

    But I Insist I get My One Share of the Profits from the Oil/Gas from the Gulf & the rest of the US’s profit’s from Our Resources.

    Yes, the Govt can tax it all back or Wallst can Steal it from us later, but I Demand a full accounting of those profits & a Check made out the Me directly for My Fair Share & everyone should demand their share.

    To do otherwise is to just make us all Slaves/Serfs that are nothing more then Debt Donkey’s servicing Royalty.

  28. Here is a problem we have developed in this country. We cannot use words that reflect what is going on because someone will be offended. (I am not talking about the typical racial slurs. But that discussion is for another day.) if a person comes into this country without following the proper legal procedure, his/her immigration is illegal. He is an immigrant and his immigration is illegal thus he is an illegal immigrant. Of course some have taken this phrase and used it inappropriately but it does reflect what is going on. Of course the human as a human being is “not illegal” but his status as an immigrant is, in fact, illegal.

    My other concern about this kind of “rule” is that it erodes free speech.

  29. blhlls,

    **I think they’re really trying to get at a different problem than the one they are actually reaching **

    What certain people in the govt pushing for immigration reform are in part after in a national registration & tracking system for everyone of us not just Mexicans.

    The state of Oklahoma has a law that any piece of new legislation can only deal with one issue.

    It’s not that way at the Federal level, they pile on all kinds of different crap inside those bills that are mostly hidden from the public at large.

    ie: Obamacare

  30. Re: davidm2575’s reply

    Many of them “are” here illegally by their own choice, by their own willful decisions, and I dont support rewarding people who actively choose to evade and ignore the legal immigration system. I think those decisions should have serious consequences, a big one being they should lose the privilege of being eligible for a “path to citizenship” or a “path to residency”.

    As for the offspring…their parents are the ones responsible for the tough situation their children find themselves in. Looking for someone to blame? It’s the parents breaking the laws, not the people with the sovereign country quite appropriately deciding who, how and when people can enter.

    It’s tough for them, no question, and if I were one of those kids, I’d be pretty ticked off at my parents for putting me in such a bad situation.

    Unfortunately, I think their best option is to leave, get their immigration status resolved, get in line, and come to this country legally. It definitely is a tougher path than just letting them stay… but it is a path. That it’s so difficult is largely their parent’s fault. They’ve put their children in those unfortunate circumstances.

    And while I really do feel for them, fixing their parent’s bad parenting decisions should not be US policy. For one, it encourages future families to enter illegally, compounding the larger problem. US policy would essentially be telling them, “If you dont want to participate in the existing system and decide to go ahead and break our rules, dont worry, your kids will be able to stay if they hide long enough, ( and we probably wont punish you either, even when we find you)”. That seems backwards and counterproductive to me. and I think it hampers any smart, solid immigration policy reform we might need to actually implement.

    Also… I saw a couple other references to it… but as part of my original comment, I didnt mention it directly but I do agree people who provide employment to illegal labor are a major part of the problem, and I completely support more enforcement and penalties, including jail time, for such cheating employers.

    I dont want to “secure the border” or “round ’em up”… but I dont want to reward rule breaking, and I think it’s a good idea to make it very, very difficult to reside and be employed in this country without a legal status, and if you’re caught, that you’re expelled more quickly than we do nowadays, and that there are certainly more serious consequences to those choices.

  31. Well, I think the UCLA Student Gov. at least ought to provide “Equal Time” and ban “racist” and “redneck”, too. Which, would pretty well shut down their political speech in toto. Because, without two words. they wouldn’t have anything to say.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  32. Atnor wrote: “Unfortunately, I think their best option is to leave, get their immigration status resolved, get in line, and come to this country legally.”

    You make it sound so easy. Imagine you are 40 years old with no family left alive here. You know no country but this one. You have been trying to get immigration to fix your problem, but all they do is have hearing after hearing and nothing gets done. You have no money to leave and go to another country because you cannot get steady work. You must constantly work under the table at day labor and what not. Even if someone were to give you money to go back to your native country, you can’t leave because you can’t get a passport. Your native country doesn’t know who you are. This is how broken our system is.

    Atnor wrote: ” I think it’s a good idea to make it very, very difficult to reside and be employed in this country without a legal status…”

    It is somewhat inhumane to think this way. Regardless of “legal status,” these are PEOPLE you are talking about. So GIVE THEM LEGAL STATUS. The government should be able to take their information and say, “okay, yes, I know you now and I know where you live. Here is your work visa, and here is what you need to do if you want to stay here.” Voila! Now they are legal.

    Whenever the law gets it wrong, there will be civil unrest. When the immigration laws get fixed, nobody will even be talking about this anymore.

  33. The students are right, “illegal immigrant” is racist and discriminatory. People are not “illegal”. Their status may be illegal if they haven’t gone through channels for “proper” documentation, but they are not illegal anything. Considering the persona as “illegal” is degrading and limits their entire being to their status. They are, as people, far more than their residency status.

  34. Reply to davidm2575:

    40 yrs old? And here through no fault of his own? Violating the rules for over 22 years, and in all that time he cant get his immigration status resolved? It’s the government’s fault and responsibility? *sigh*

    If we need to help such individuals get out of the country easier so they can try to enter legally… sure, that might be a reform I could get behind.

    There is nothing “inhumane” about that kind of thinking. People make choices – those choices should have clear consequences. They do have another choice – enter legally, or stay in their country of origin. Instead… they’ve opted for a third choice… thumbing their nose at the legal system we’ve setup, and actively choosing to purposely evade it. I have zero interest in rewarding people who make that decision by giving them the exact thing they’ve decided to break the rules to get.

  35. Atnor wrote: ” They do have another choice – enter legally, or stay in their country of origin.”

    I was not clear in the case I described about the 40 year old. That person was brought here by his parents. So it was not through his choice. You think it is just fine to blame the parents who are nowhere to be found. I say the humane thing is to recognize this person who desires to work and desires to have a country.

    Atnor wrote: “… thumbing their nose at the legal system we’ve setup, and actively choosing to purposely evade it.”

    No, this person goes to immigration, who just leads them on a wild goose chase of hearing followed by more hearings over several decades. How tempting it is for him to just “evade the system,” but he wants to work steady and live like all his other neighbors do.

    Whether you like it or not, these illegal aliens are you neighbor, and you just sound like you don’t really care about the problems he has.

    Even when dealing with people who choose to come over illegally, do you really know their situation? What causes a person to risk life and limb to come to this country? What causes someone to leave family to do this? Surely things were bad to cause them to do this. I think anyone with this kind of gumption probably is the kind of person I would like to welcome here as my neighbor. He is probably a lot better than many of the lazy kids growing up here who are more interested in updating their Facebook page than getting a job. You don’t want to reward them? I say, yes, let’s reward them. Let’s give them a path to be a productive member of our community. Clearly they want to be here, to live with us. They chose us. All we have to do is say yes, welcome.

  36. BettyKath, me too. David you’re right this time. (:
    Atnor, I don’t know if it is you lack empathy or are unable merely to see past your biases and positions.
    These children who were brought here and are now adults not only don’t have a home to go to from the country of parents origin, usually not even knowing anyone there as David has said they often don’t even know the language so you would want them sent back to a place they do not know and with a good chance no one they know, and no way to communicate because they do not know the language. Yep. That’s punishment allright.
    If you can – take a moment to feel what that would feel like.
    Yes the parents were wrong but that does not mean that the children have to take on the sins of their fathers because people think our immigration policy is bad, immigrants are bad and just send em all back to where they came from.

  37. Reply to davidm2575:

    Cool… I just disagree. Your example guy should take some personal responsibility and get his situation resolved. It doesnt take 22 years to leave the country voluntarily. If it does, as I said, I’m happy to support fixing that problem and helping him leave so he can then try and enter legally. But even if getting him out of the country over 22 years is an actual problem…. letting him stay, for the reasons I mentioned, is, imho, bad policy and not the best of bad alternatives.

    Why does the parents not being around not make it still their fault? Their bad decision to bring this man to this country illegally is the reason he’s in the unfortunate situation he’s in. Their still being around or not seems irrelevant.

    “Whether you like it or not, these illegal aliens are you neighbor, and you just sound like you don’t really care about the problems he has.”

    His problems regarding his legal status in the US, and especially those people who choose to come themselves… are of their own making, or his parent’s making. I answered what choices I think he has available to him, and how I feel about people who chose the “break the rules” option. They arent “easy” paths, but they are paths. Looks like we come down on the wrong side of that question, and I’m OK with that.

    I dont need to know “their situation” to determine I think their choice was wrong, or that at the least, it should come with certain consequences. I understand that they “want” to come live here…. but if they dont choose to enter and engage the system we set up for that specific purpose, then no… I dont care much what they want after that point. I dont want to “welcome as a neighbor” people who actively choose to break the rules like that, and I dont think people who make that choice are admirable or people I would hold in much esteem, regardless of how hard a worker they are. I dont care if they have more drive than some stupid kid on Facebook… the kid on Facebook isnt actively breaking the rules, he’s just a stupid privileged kid. If that kid doesnt want to get a job… well, there should be consequences for that set of decisions too.

    It’s not “follow the rules… unless you’re a hard worker… then do whatever you think best”. Those certainly arent people I’m interested in rewarding.

    Thanks for the discussion:)

  38. reply to leejcaroll:

    For the record… I am a big supporter of “immigration”, and would like for it to be increased. I welcome and appreciate legal immigrants, and I value their importance to our country, both in the past and going forward. It’s the illegal immigration that I dont care for.

    And, I dont want to punish people for “the sins of their fathers”. But, we all find ourselves in tough situations through no fault of our own through circumstances. These people have a problem for sureand certainly it’s a raw deal. But, I dont think giving them special consideration and permission to stay in the country serves the larger point of having a solid immigration policy. I think, unfortunately, that it encourages more illegal immigration.

  39. Thght this was interesting a petition to NY TImes stop using the “I word”

    Tell the New York Times to Stop Using the “I-Word”
    author: Care2.com
    target: Phil Corbett, New York Times Deputy…
    signatures: 80,992

    After years of controversy, the Associated Press has announced that it will no longer use the word “illegal” to describe undocumented immigrants. Now, let’s ask the New York Times to do the same.

    The use of the term “illegal” rather than “undocumented” only serves to reinforce the already rampant racism commonly employed when discussing immigration issues in the United States. Declaring an entire group of diverse people to be “illegal” only serves to further dehumanize them.

    Many major TV networks have already denounced what campaigns are calling “the I-word.” The AP has now made a pivotal move in the world of print media.

    Thus far, the New York Times has been hesitant to adopt any sort of public stance on the matter, but if we push hard enough, this well-respected paper could be a model for the rest of the nation’s media.

    Tell New York Times Deputy News Editor Phil Corbett to take a stand for objectivity and erase the “I-word” from his paper’s vocabulary!


  40. So, I have bettykath down as saying “undocumented unworker” for those illegals here that aren’t working. I think felon is discriminatory and should be banned. I also believe that since virtually all people on sexual predator lists are male that it must be sexist, and therefore discriminatory. I love skiing down that slippery slope.

  41. david looking at the proposed DREAM Act says something totally different from what you assert. To think that a 16 year old has NO ties or memory of his home country is absurd. Then to think that even young children who came here as infants have no ties to their home country is also absurd since the overwhelming majority speak their native language fluently, talk to family back home such as grandparents, uncles, aunts,etc. If what you said is true, we then no longer need bilingual education since all those illegal kids would be speaking fluent English. You cannot have it both ways.

    It might make sense only if the kids affected started school here from kindergarten and thus have certified school records to back their story up. Absent that, all others should not be allowed to stay since we have NO idea of when they came here because they did it illegally. In fact, the last amnesty resulted in fraud on a massive scale that doubled the estimated numbers who would qualify. It also stimulated a rush to come in illegally since all who made it across the border in time got the amnesty too.

    Then there is the problem we have on the border here where Mexican children commute to school across the border every day, and then graduate from high school, and in Texas get in state tuition as well as now the chance to get US citizenship. They get free education, free health care, food stamps, and welfare and jobs too, I know of a welfare worker who was told to NOT investigate a woman who claimed to be a US citizen who spoke not a word of English, who was supposedly a single mother with her husband standing outside waiting for her to get her welfare benefits. This fraud is widespread here. I am simply tired of it, and even MORE tired of the illegals thinking that they are entitled to a good life by breaking the law.

  42. Come on, Nick, don’t put words in my mouth.

    My distinction is similar to telling a child that he’s “bad” or telling a child that his behavior is “bad” which is a more precise description. A big difference.

    As to your bigoted comment, most immigrants, properly documented or not, tend to be very hard working. If they are not paid under the table, to the benefit of the employer, they pay income taxes just like the rest of you and many of them don’t file for their refund so they actually pay more.

  43. rafflw you are breaking the party line again. When the ICE and Obama arrested some employers, and shut down their crooked business the pro-illegals raised holy hell about that. Watch yourself, you obvious racist.

  44. bettykath I agree that possibly from a grammatical point of view using illegal as a noun is not correct. So instead I propose what they really are which is illegal immigrants since they do not have permission to be residents here. That applies to ALL illegal immigrants since 40% of them have enough documents to choke a horse and only a fool would think that they are undocumented. Or better yet, call them suspected crooks since illegal entry is a crime. At least it would not apply to the decent folks who came here legally, but overstayed their visas. So If they illegally entered, they cannot be slandered any more than any person who commits a crime can be slandered for describing their crime.

  45. bettykath, Please read my first comment. They are still illegal like a person who commits a felony is a “felon.” If you don’t want to be called illegal, then don’t be. However, please read my first comment. I have been on the record here several times saying I love Mexican immigrants, legal and illegal. And, they are some of the hardest working people to EVER come to this country. They are very much like my people, Italians. I will not go w/ PC. Not ever.

  46. Leejcaroll, I guess that we do not need bilingual classes any more since all those kids don’t speak their native language any more. Of course, it is absurd to think that a kid who comes here at age 16 has no ties or memory of his home country! Only idiots would meet that criterion, which might explain why so many people are for this DREAM Act since the supporters of this bill have no memory before age 16 too. Then you will find as I have that as you age, you lose your home except for the one you make as an adult. It is called growing up.

    I have never heard of any law that grants rights to those who steal something and keep it for a period of time. So if an illegal family steals a car as a graduation gift for the new high school grad, the lucky kid should keep the car because taking it away would cause a hardship on the student since it would make getting an education harder. The illegals have stolen something that they have no moral or legal right to have, the right to live and work in the US. Just because they have not all been caught as of yet, does not grant them any rights to the stolen property.

  47. Atnor, our back door neighbor was a VP of an S&L back in the 50s when they could only give loans for homes. He broke the rules and gave a loan by way of fraud to our next door neighbor who owned a nursery and used that loan for his business. Mr. Tucker got FIVE years in prison for breaking that rule, which was later changed under Reagan so that it was now LEGAL for S&Ls to do what he had done. That cost him his job, his home, broke up the family, and made it near impossible for his kids to go to college. That he was a decorated WWII combat veteran made NO difference and the US had NO concern for what happened to HIS family after all he had literally shed his blood for the USA.

    So I have absolutely NO concern or sympathy for those who STEAL the right to live and work in the US without having contributed one sacrifice for this country! I do have some sympathy for the poor kids, but they suffer for the choices the parents make in any criminal activity. There is nothing that my sympathy can or will change.

  48. An in-law’s parents came here illegally many years ago. My in-law was born here. Should she be sent back to her parents original home?

  49. YES They suffer the consequences of committing a crime as do ALL US citizens. They most certainly should be deported and they will be banned from the US for at least ten years. She can obviously go visit them and do whatever she wishes to do for them. I posted about what happened to my boyhood girl friends family when the father violated Federal banking laws. That destroyed their family. He was more deserving of consideration since he was a combat WWII veteran who literally shed his blood for the USA than this womans parents. Also deportation is NOT a punishment, it is simply restoring the status quo. Going to prison is punishment.

  50. Wow. I actually find myself in agreement with davidm2575 on the resolution. It is absurd. Nothing is accomplished by attempting to relabel that which is statutorily unlawful. This is merely an example of student idealism, which I mostly admire, run amok.

  51. people were here 10,000 years ago, neighbors move in 500 years ago and draw a line across a desert. everybody on the north side of the line gets a casino, everybody on the south side of the line gets to work in the kitchen.

  52. It would be denigrating to call them WOPS and of course the Sicilians would be offended that we call someone else WOP so perhaps use the whole phrase and not the acronym and most of us will know that if we say some person is With Out Papers that we will be calling them a WOP. As an Italian greyhound I can relate to it. In the dogpac the only time we need papers is when we go to the vet.

  53. I do not understand why so many people have such a bad attitude towards immigrants or illegals. As for me, I do not care who wants to study and where. Trust people who got the US education are very welcomed in many places. So why not let international students come here and study. Do not forget one important fact: they mostly help to improve our economy as they pay for education without applying for loans here, they pay for different services, etc. Also teachers underline one thing: such students study better than Americans. They actually value education. Here is an example: for instance, they need to write a term paper. While they will actually write it, Americans will use MyEssayService or any other to do it for them….so I guess I am more on illegals side

  54. Alicia all immigrants are NOT equal. The ones you and I like are those who come here LEGALLY, obey our laws, contribute legally to our country, and as you observed pay premium prices for their education. The illegals pay cut rates for the education WE are paying for OUR children, have NO legal right to be here, use our free health care system, education, and pay little or nothing for those things. Then when the DREAM Act is proposed, they do not have the decency to force them to register for the draft as ALL males MUST do at the age of 18. I guess that they do not want to make any sacrifice for the US. I would like to see that if that act is passed that they have ICE agents standing by to arrest and deport the illegal student for committing a FELONY if they do not have proof of registration.

    Then we have the stupidity of saying that a LEGAL Indian immigrant with a PhD in Electrical Engineering is the SAME as an uneducated illegal who speaks not a word of English. Do you seriously think that they are the same in what they can contribute to the US? You also forget that the US allows over one million legal immigrants/yr to come here legally.

  55. And is an uneducated “legal” the same as an “illegal” Ph.D in electrical engineering?
    If you use your reasoning the “illegal” is worth much more to our society then the American citizen, whether a natural born or naturalized citizen.

  56. As a matter of fact, the legal uneducated person is less of a drain that an illegal educated one. The educated one will be used to lower the salaries of higher paid workers and thus do more damage than an illegal one who only screws the less educated and minority workers who have less wages.

  57. Randy wrote: “The illegals pay cut rates for the education WE are paying for OUR children, have NO legal right to be here, use our free health care system, education, and pay little or nothing for those things. Then when the DREAM Act is proposed, they do not have the decency to force them to register for the draft as ALL males MUST do at the age of 18.”

    One easy way to fix this is to make EVERYONE who lives here legal. Why is that so hard? Secure borders are fine, but if someone gets here and lives here, he or she should be able to walk into any immigration office and work out a path to either stay here or return to their country of origin, depending upon the specifics of the case. If a person wants to live here legally, we should provide that path for them, no matter how they got here. We need to get rid of this stupid inhumane concept that if someone is here without following some stupid rules we made for how people should be allowed to come here that somehow that makes them “illegal.” The problem is the bad law, not the people. The immigration law is BAD! The immigration law is WRONG. The immigration law is IMMORAL. We need to change the law in order to fix the problem. We need to welcome people here who desire to live the American dream. We should not make their American dream illegal.

    The grounds for not providing a path for them to stay here should be if they were committing crimes here or abusing our welfare system. Then we should give them transportation back to their country and not string them along for years and years. If they do not commit crimes and want to work, allow them to work and build a life here. This should happen IMMEDIATELY as soon as they walk into an immigration office. This is the humane and loving approach. It would be no different than a stranger walking up to your door and asking for help. Do you slam the door in his face and automatically call him a criminal, an illegal, just because he is at your doorstep uninvited? No! You invite him in, get to know him, find out how you can help him out. This is the definition of love. This is being a good neighbor. Something is wrong when the law does not support this kind of response to people wanting to build a life here as our neighbor.

  58. I have a hard time believing that david is serious. I hope that this is a satire, and I will respond in kind. In that case, we should make speeding legal since traffic laws are unfair and unjust. If a person is driving without a license or insurance, as long as they are doing so, they should not be punished since they need a car to live in most of the USA. Germany has done just fine without speed limits, and which is why I love driving in Germany. I also love driving in Paris since it is like playing bumper cars with real cars. It is the loving thing to do to let people have their freedom.

    Why should we have limits on our borders at al? If people want to bring in things, let them. If they can sell the stuff they bring or want to use the things, let them. The government has no business telling people what they can bring in or use. If you want secure borders, what is the criterion since that means you have to enforce laws that get broken. If you do not enforce laws, then they are worse than useless.

    It is inhumane to insist that people follow laws that they do not like and is an abridgement of their Constitutional rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

  59. Randyjet wrote: “I have a hard time believing that david is serious.”

    I am completely serious. Our immigration laws are messed up. It is very difficult for people to immigrate here.

    Your analogy about not having speeding laws would only apply if I was saying that there should not be any border control. I’m not saying that. I am saying that the laws need to deal with reality in a way that does not harm people. Right now the immigration laws harm people. If a person is here, the laws need to give him a path toward a legal solution that works. In many cases that will be to allow him to stay here. In other cases it may involve deportation. A person should not be made illegal simply because he happens to be in the country without proper permission. That would be like someone being arrested for knocking on your door when you didn’t invite him to do that. Do you really think it would be justice for you to call the police and have them arrest your neighbor who knocked on your door just because you did not give him permission to come on your property and do that?

  60. david your analogy is so far off it is funny. If you have a restraining order against that person, posted signs, etc, and they still knock on your door, we DO lock them up. We have made it perfectly clear that trespassing and breaking and entering is illegal, and such persons need to be jailed. That they clean my house, does NOT mean they have earned the right to be in it when I told them no.

    To have any border controls at all means you have to enforce the law for all, not just the ones who have enough money or usefulness to bribe you.

  61. Randyjet – you don’t seem to understand that I find fault with the immigration laws that are currently in place. They need to be changed. Obviously if the current laws were good and working properly, they should be obeyed and enforced. My point is that these laws are bad, which is why they are not followed, and why they are not enforced. It is time to wake up and realize that these laws were created out of selfishness and are bad laws, or according to natural law theory, not laws at all to be obeyed.

  62. David sez: “….I find fault with the immigration laws that are currently in place. They need to be changed. Obviously if the current laws were good and working properly, they should be obeyed and enforced. My point is that these laws are bad, which is why they are not followed, and why they are not enforced. It is time to wake up and realize that these laws were created out of selfishness and are bad laws….”
    Oh my gosh! I am in agreement with David about something. Immigration laws don’t reflect reality on the ground any more than the “war on drugs.”

    My granddaughter is engaged to a Canadian citizen. Just going to visit him is a big hassle for her, as it is for him. When he has come down to see her the past couple of times, he thought he was going to be turned back at the border. She says that when she has gone to Canada, she is also hassled at the border, and agents make no attempt to be civil. From what both these young people tell me, if the agents on either side of the border talked to others like that in any other setting, they would be spitting out their teeth. They (meaning me) are going to have to hire an immigration lawyer, possibly one in Canada too, before they can get married. It shouldn’t be that way.

    Families are being split up, and kids who are US citizens (who want to stay with their parents) are faced with being deported to places they have only heard about, do not speak the language, and know nothing of the culture. Two small business owners on a business trip in their small plane, who stop for fuel and a rest stop in Iowa, are detained and hassled by Border Patrol agents. Last time I looked at a map, Iowa City was a very long way from any international border. Immigration is broken. That inscription on the Statue of Liberty is now a cruel joke.

  63. Immigration laws in this country are indeed broken, however, immigration laws were not created out of selfishness nor does natural law say that not all laws are to be obeyed. Natural law says that laws that go against nature are likely to be unenforceable.

  64. david your post shows a shallow understanding of law and society and we disagree on so many topics on this that I have neither the time nor inclination to refute all of your errors. Gene H has done a good start on this. We have over probably 12 million people driving without licenses, so obviously we do not need laws like this since it is flouted so widely.

  65. OS Sorry to hear that your granddaughter is having a hard time, but I ran into the same problem in Canada once when I landed there when they were going to deny me entrance for a 35 year old DUI conviction in Texas. The officer relented and figured that I was probably rehabilitated and not a threat even though under Canadian law, I was a convicted felon.

    You are wrong on a host of points. I was unaware that states required proof of citizenship to get married. They are perfectly free to be married as far as I know. Now as far as one or the other being admitted to either country, that is another matter, but the fact is Canadian citizens do not need a visa to enter the US, nor the other way around. They are perfectly free to come and go legally, unless one has a conviction on their record. You did not mention any of that so I assume that they have a clean record. As an airline captain, I was refused admission to the US by one US Customs guy in YYZ when I went through US customs there. We had left our bags at the gate while we went back outside when our flight was late arriving. The fool told me that I could not leave my bags in the gate area, and that I had violated the law and I could not be admitted back into the gate area as a result. I simply looked at my other crew members who used a different line, so I started to go to that one, and the fool saw that and relented. There are idiots in all manner of jobs.

    As for your contention that families are broken up by the US when they deport illegals who have US citizens kids, it is simply wrong. It is the family that decides where the kids will live, NOT the US government. They are perfectly free to go to their parents native country. I know of no kids who do not know their parents native language, if that is so widespread, then we most certainly can get rid of bilingual education. In fact, some friends of mine raised their US born daughter to speak German, even though both of them spoke fluent English. Sam was a US citizen married to an Austrian woman, he spoke five languages, she spoke three. In fact, most kids in Laredo who are US born and whose parents are US citizens speak more Spanish than English. Then I get a laugh out of the DREAM Act supporters who say that 16 year olds have NO memory or ties to their native countries since that is the cut-off age for entering the US. This law provides for mass fraud as did the last amnesty.

    The poem on the Statue of Liberty was written when our population was under 150 million. We are over DOUBLE that now. It is like an overloaded plane or lifeboat. We cannot let all on board who wish to be, otherwise we defeat the whole enterprise.

  66. this is just stupid its not like they are hurting you or anything they came here to follow a dream they have in mind and if that bothers you you can go to h*** for all i CARE WIT YOU AND YOUR LITLLE IGNORANT SELF

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