![praying_hands[1]](https://i0.wp.com/jonathanturley.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/praying_hands1.jpg)
It appears that Alabama legislators want to trigger yet another legal challenge to the ban on prayer in public schools. A new piece of legislation introduced by Rep. Steve Hurst, R-Munford would require teachers to read a prayer every day. However, this bill has an interesting twist: it would have the teachers pick a prayer given in Congress. The point is obvious that if such prayers are permissible in one government setting, it must be permissible in this public setting. That assumption is misplaced and the timing for the bill may be as ill-conceived as its constitutional interpretation. There is a pending case dealing with legislative prayer before the Court and this controversy will only remind justices that the legislative prayer cases may collide with school prayer cases unless it draws a clear line in the constitutional sand. This however is an improvement for Hurst who has moved on to prayer from his prior interest in castration.
Hurst insists that “If Congress can open with a prayer, and the state of Alabama Legislature can, I don’t see why schools can’t.”
Here is the language of HB 318:
SYNOPSIS: This bill provides for a period of time in the public schools for studying the formal procedures of the United States Congress including the verbatim reading of a congressional opening prayer.
A BILL TO BE ENTITLED AN ACT
To prescribe a period of time in the public schools not to exceed 15 minutes for study of the formal procedures followed by the United States Congress, which study shall include a reading verbatim of one of the opening prayers given by the House or Senate Chaplain or a guest member of the clergy at the beginning of a meeting of the United States House of Representatives or Senate.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF ALABAMA:
Section 1. At the commencement of the first class of each day in all grades in all public schools, the teacher in charge of the room in which such class is held shall, for a period of time not exceeding 15 minutes, instruct the class in the formal procedures followed by the United States Congress. The study shall include, but not be limited to, a reading verbatim of one of the opening prayers given by the House or Senate Chaplain or a guest member of the clergy at the beginning of a meeting of the House of Representatives or the Senate.Section 2. This act shall become effective on the first day of the third month following its passage and approval by the Governor, or its otherwise becoming law.
The bill would raise a longstanding conflict in the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court, which has tried to allow certain prayers like at the start of Congress while drawing the line at schools. The issue is now before the Supreme Court in Town of Greece v. Galloway. Since 1999, the town has started its town council meetings with a prayer led local clergy or local residents. The case will return the Court to the area some thirty years after its ruling in Marsh v. Chambers when it held that the Nebraska legislature could begin its legislative sessions with prayers. This is an area however where the Court has avoided clear lines and left significant confusion in the wake of the decision. But the Court has never settled when legislative prayers go too far and cross the line separating church and state. Since 1999, the town of Greece, New York, which is outside Rochester, has started its town council meetings with a prayer led by members of the local clergy or local residents. In the case of the Town of Greece, all of the prayer leaders happen to have been Christians. It was challenged in 2007 by Jewish resident Susan Galloway and atheist Linda Stephens. One such example of the prayer involved in pastor proclaiming “the freedom that comes from knowing your son, Jesus.” A lower court found the prayer violated the first amendment as an endorsement of Christianity.
That in turn raises the Alabama proposal. The prayers before Congress are given by various demoninations, though teachers would be allowed to choose (which could produce an as applied problem). However, there is a problem with the audience which is viewed as a captive audience in past cases. In 1962, the Court considered a relatively mild prayer approved by the New York Board of Regents: “Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country.” It ruled that such prayers violated the establishment clause. In 1963, it ruled in Abington School District v. Schempp that school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools in the United States is unconstitutional. Both rulings had overwhelming majorities.
Notably, these decisions did not ban prayer from schools since children could still individually pray. Moreover, it does not keep religion out of legitimate educational programs. In Abington School District, Justice Tom Clark stressed “Nothing that we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistent with the First Amendment.” He added:
“The place of religion in our society is an exalted one, achieved through a long tradition of reliance on the home, the church, and the inviolable citadel of the individual heart and mind. We have come to recognize through bitter experience that it is not within the power of government to invade that citadel, whether its purpose or effect be to aid or oppose, to advance or retard. In the relationship between man and religion, the State is firmly committed to a position of neutrality.”
That presents an interesting potential test case that falls between school prayers cases and legislative prayer cases — a distinction long opposed by secularists who want the government out of religious speech and practices. Marsh allows legislative prayers to be sure but not efforts to proselytize or favor or denounce a religion. However, the Court is likely to view this as yet another effort to circumvent its school prayer cases. The odds are heavily against Alabama which would mean that it will spend considerable money on the inevitable challenge to the law — only to likely lose in the federal courts.
Source: Anniston Star
http://www.aclutx.org/strategic-campaigns/religious-freedom/
When I was a child we lived in Maryland when dad was stationed at the Naval Training Center Bainbridge. Perrryville Schools had daily prayers and from what I remember bible reading also.
Black R I too grew up in the 50s when school prayer was mandatory, the Catholics did NOT like using the King James version of the Bible for readings, the Jews did not like Christian prayers nor did the Unitarians. The school board told all those un-American types, TOUGH, this is WASP country and WE run the place.
No one at any public school–whether student, staff or faculty–is forbidden to pray however they want. What they are NOT allowed to do is proselytize or inflict their prayer on anyone else. For example, anyone can say grace over their lunch in the school cafeteria, but they cannot get on the intercom and force it on a captive audience.
Even the Bible cautions about it. The English Standard Version says in Matthew 6:6
Of course, that is preceded by Matthew 6:5 which says:
There’s that ‘H’ word again. Hypocrites.
David,
Politicians talk about god because they cynically understand that most people will associate them with holiness when they are invoking a deity. If you lived in a different nation, a different deity (in some cases deities) would be invoked for the same reason.
No one is saying a teacher or school official can’t pray. They just can’t force others to hear them or participate with them. You seem to assume forcing others to participate in your prayer to your particular god is fine. I believe that is because you know you will not have to pray to a god which you have no connection to.
If I forced you to participate in praying to lucifer, ganesh, shiva, etc. I bet you would not be for those prayers in school. That is why our Constitution protects everyone’s rights to the religion of their choice. Do you mind if you and your children say a prayer to the wiccan god/desses at school everyday? You shouldn’t if you are consistent.
Jill wrote: “If I forced you to participate in praying to lucifer, ganesh, shiva, etc. I bet you would not be for those prayers in school.”
You would lose your bet. Nevertheless, I think it is a false characterization to say that someone is being forced to participate to pray just because an official prays in your presence. When President Obama called upon his God to bless the United States during his most recent State of the Union speech, did he force you or anybody else to call upon Obama’s God? No he did not. We simply witnessed his prayer during his official function as President of the United States. No freedom loving American should be offended by his liberty to utter such a prayer.
Jill wrote: “Do you mind if you and your children say a prayer to the wiccan god/desses at school everyday? ”
As I said before, I do not believe in mandatory prayer. However, I would welcome a Wiccan teacher, or a Muslim teacher, or Jewish, or Christian teacher to pray in class with the students as witness to it. That is partly what education is all about, witnessing and understanding the diversity of people among whom we live. To prohibit teachers from praying during school time is tyranny and a gross infringement of their individual liberties. In a truly free society, teachers are free to pray or not pray as their intellect and conscience dictates.
davidm2575,
Teachers and principals are free to pray on their own time. No one is infringing on their right to pray.
Elaine M wrote: “Teachers and principals are free to pray on their own time. No one is infringing on their right to pray.”
You are repeating an erroneous principle of Constitutional jurisprudence. In Tinker v. Des Moines School District, the SCOTUS opined:
“It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years.”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=393&invol=503
“Being a “liberal Professor”
I didn’t know Turley was a “liberal Professor” I thought it was Law.
Time to end Congressional prayer and watch the apoplexy. both real and feigned, hit certain members.
Where does the so-called “prayer for relief” fit into this. It’s a relic of the idea that certain men are the gateway to God.
It exists in courts everywhere.
In reading the text of the Bill:
To prescribe a period of time in the public schools not to exceed 15 minutes for study of the formal procedures followed by the United States Congress, which study shall include a reading verbatim of one of the opening prayers given by the House or Senate Chaplain
Nice try on attempting to circumvent the unconstitutionality issue of school prayer by cloaking it with the “Teaching the Students Congressional Procedures” angle. Yeah that will work…NOT !
Bruce Coulson
Everyone in a legislature is there voluntarily. The same is not true for classrooms. This is the crucial difference.
*****
I agree!
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People can express themselves religiously in many ways…in many, many places. Prayer should be voluntary. Public schools are not places where praying should be mandatory. Don’t legislators like Hurst have more important issues on which to focus their time and attention?
Elaine M wrote: “Prayer should be voluntary. Public schools are not places where praying should be mandatory.”
I agree with the point that prayer should not be mandatory. However, the flip side of this is that the liberty for teachers and school officials to pray also should not be infringed upon. The First Amendment is meant to protect this individual liberty. The SCOTUS has made some mistakes in this area. The Congress has the power to put a check on on the SCOTUS in this regard.
Schools should never be hostile toward religious expression. Any government that fails to acknowledge God will be doomed to failure.
The Constitution does not forbid the acknowledgment of God, which is why every State of the Union address by President Obama ends with a prayer; it is why most all government meetings open with prayer, from town council meetings to school board meetings to county commissioner meetings, State legislative meetings, Congressional meetings, Judicial courts, even the United States Supreme Court opens with an acknowledgment and prayer to God. Most government officials are sworn into office with an acknowledgment and prayer to God, including every President since George Washington. It is human nature that when elevated to a high office to call upon a higher power to guide and direct one’s actions. Nevertheless, I am not optimistic about the Supreme Court getting these cases right. They have shown a history of elevating mankind and themselves above God through a shaky, twisting, inconsistent interpretation of the Constitution. What we need is Congress or the States to get their act together and pass a Constitutional Amendment making clear the right of government officials to acknowledge God and freedom to pray in their official capacities.
Everyone in a legislature is there voluntarily. The same is not true for classrooms. This is the crucial difference. Although personally I’m opposed to official prayers in any government setting, the element of force makes mandated school prayer particularly offensive. (As has been observed by many wags, as long as there are pop quizzes, there will be prayer in schools.)
Of course, when school prayer is discussed they mean a white Christian prayer. Can you imagine how their heads would explode if their children came home discussing how they participated in an Islamic prayer to Mohammed? Apoplectic would not be too strong a word.
Communications with magic beings in the sky are relevant to neither classrooms nor legislatures. They are completely about being intimidated into being seen by other magic-thinkers as behaving “righteously” and nothing else.
Professor Turley; saw yopu on fox news last night commenting on presidential abuse. Being a “liberal Professor” I was wondering why fox news and not CNN, MSNBC,NBC,CBS, ABC or CNBC? Do you think their still drinking the koolaid?
One solution is for congress not to ever meet again…. And if Bush….and Obama would really like that…. Then they could rule without challenge….as far as school prayer goes….. I’m thinking he may have a valid point…..if congress does it…. So shall we…..
They need to take into consideration the many different types of prayer. For example, I want to be there the first time a kid or parent wants to sacrifice a goat, or pull out a live rattlesnake to handle.
Since that part of Alabama has a strong Cherokee and Choctaw presence, they need to give a drum circle equal time. That ought to go over well.
This video was made at Guntersville, AL. I can hardly wait for the first morning the prayer is drumming. That is one school prayer I would like to attend.
It’s significant that the teacher may choose which prayer of the day to “study”. That’s one hell of a loophole!!! If it’s supposed to be the prayer of the day, as a way of learning about what Congress is doing, then it really needs to be that prayer of the day. Of course, we all know the chosen prayer will be a Christian prayer. Further, have these “educators” been paying attention to Congress in the last 12 years?
These people pray will they cut foodstamps and benefits to the poor. They pray when they approve torture and indefinite detention. They pray as they give to the rich, who evidently will pass through the eye of a needle created by their minions, minions who will make certain the needle eye is large enough for them to pass! They pray when they tear down our Constitution. I would say Congressional praying is a sign that one abomination or another is about to be approved by them!
Praying = preying on the poor, Innocent and powerless. No thank you!
P.S. This is obviously unconstitutional.
“This however is an improvement for Hurst who has moved on to prayer from his prior interest in castration.” – JT
It would save the great state of Alabama time and money if they would replace Prayer 101 and Castration 101 with Civics 101.
And while they are replacing, they should replace Hurst with a representative who has some sense of what America is all about.
On the one hand we are supposed to be a ‘nation under god’. On the other hand we are supposed to be free of religious persecution and perhaps even direction.
The obvious solution for this is to allow a two minute moment of absolute silence in school classrooms before the day starts, during announcements. The people may think whatever they want to think in their own heads, whether it be meditative relaxation and focusing, praise to some god or collection of gods, or just sit there.
There should be no direction, whatsoever, toward one religion or another. If a muslim must lay on the floor and chant then, not in school. If a christian must hold hands with other christians and chant then, not in school. The moment should belong to all and to none at the same time.
Perhaps if we learned that a person’s beliefs are between him and himself or her and her self and not to be forced or persuaded in any way whatsoever on any one else, we will be setting an example for the world. Kind of like doing the opposite of the nut cases who feel that if you don’t believe what I believe, you must be stupid and perhaps even eliminated.
I am glad that Alabama is doing so well that they can use taxpayers money to pass such frivolous laws that will cost a good deal of money in court. I only wish that they would spend the millions on education. But of course, education is a secondary consideration in most legislatures, while using tax payer money to get re-elected is more fun and profitable.