For many civil libertarians, the American political system appears caught in a vicious loop. While Americans are demanding change and hold both parties at record lows, the party elite have changed nothing. (Indeed, a new poll shows the Democrats at a new low and now in danger of losing not just the White House but Congress). The leading candidate for the Democrats is Hillary Clinton (who has also been shown to have low numbers in recent polls). The Republicans are pushing another Bush. For many libertarians and civil libertarians, Clinton is a non-starter. She supported the wars under Bush as well as the Libyan intervention under Obama. She is the very face of the Democratic establishment for many. That image was reinforced last week at the University of Connecticut, when Clinton discussed Edward Snowden and expressed utter confusion why he would ever do what he did.
Clinton responded to questions about NSA surveillance with the same mantra heard in both the Bush and Obama Administrations: there are people out there who want to hurt us and we were just trying to protect you. She made it sound like she was talking about events 100 years ago:
“People were desperate to avoid another attack, and I saw enough intelligence as a senator from New York, and then certainly as secretary [of State], that this is a constant—there are people right this minute trying to figure out how to do harm to Americans and to other innocent people. So it was a debate that needs to happen, so that we make sure that we’re not infringing on Americans’ privacy, which is a valued, cherished personal belief that we have. But we also had to figure out how to get the right amount of security.”
The campaign has begun. We did nothing wrong because we were fighting terrorists but we will look for the right balance . . . and by the way, I am delighted that we are having this debate (even after the Administration fought to prevent any disclosure of the programs that led to the debate).
It was Clinton’s comments on Snowden that are likely to outrage many civil libertarians. While not calling him a traitor like others (which would not go over well given the polls showing Snowden as viewed as a whistleblower), Clinton came off as passive aggressive — openly expressing bewilderment that he did what he did when he could have just come to the government with his concerns.
“When he emerged and when he absconded with all that material, I was puzzled because we have all these protections for whistle-blowers. If he were concerned and wanted to be part of the American debate, he could have been. But it struck me as—I just have to be honest with you—as sort of odd that he would flee to China, because Hong Kong is controlled by China, and that he would then go to Russia—two countries with which we have very difficult cyberrelationships, to put it mildly.”
I can understand why our ruling political elite would find Snowden odd. He broke the rules and went outside of a carefully controlled duopoly system of control. He embarrassed many, including Clinton, who sat by quietly as the national security system invaded the privacy of every American citizen. Indeed, for people in the establishment who have spent their lives reinforcing that system, someone like Snowden is more than an anomaly. He is someone who not only broke the rules but threw away his career to make these disclosures. For people like Clinton, he could just as well be a man from Mars.
Just for the record, as many of you know, I represented the prior whistleblower who first revealed this program years before Snowden. He tried to use the system. Happily he was not charged and is doing well. However, as I have testified in Congress, the whistleblower system referred to by Clinton is a colossal joke. First, as Clinton must know (but did not mention), there are exceptions under the whistleblower laws for national security information. Second, the House and Senate oversight committees are viewed as the place that whistleblowers go to get arrested. There is a revolving door of staff back and forth to the intelligence agencies and people like Dianne Feinstein have denounced Snowden as a traitor. For those of us who have practiced in this area, many of us find it “odd” that Clinton would think that Snowden could use that system. While one can still criticize Snowden for breaking classification laws, the suggestion that he could have used the whistleblower system is demonstrably untrue if you are familiar with the laws or the history of such cases.
Clinton added that “I think turning over a lot of that material—intentionally or unintentionally—drained, gave all kinds of information, not only to big countries, but to networks and terrorist groups and the like. So I have a hard time thinking that somebody who is a champion of privacy and liberty has taken refuge in Russia, under Putin’s authority.”
Of course, many would “have a hard time thinking that somebody” who blindly supported the rise of the national security state and multiple wars would hold forth n privacy and liberty. Yet, none of this matters. Lobbyists have been reportedly giving millions to Clinton in speeches while Democratic leaders are already preparing the ground for her to be the next nominee. There is nothing “odd” about that in America’s duopoly.
Source: National Journal
Sarah at the NRA?
That’s some Christian there.
And so too are all the members of the audience that cheered making a Christian sacrament into torture.
“Christian” nation, indeed!
Yep Feynman, it’s petty, weak and will backfire on them should they be foolish enough to try to make an issue out of it in a Presidential campaign. Clinton has far heavier baggage.
Regarding Warren’s native history.
She is from OK. A state who has played an important role in native American history. Her mother told her about her heritage. I’ll bet there are thousands of OK mothers who have told their children the same. It’s romantic and kind of wonderful.
Now I ask you. How did you learn about your family lineage? Did your mother and grandmother pass on that information? Are you quite sure your great grandfather took a bullet at Gettysburg? If you tell your boss that your great grandfather was a part of the militia that captured John Wilkes Booth and your boss finds out that your great grandfather was bartending in Philly at the time, do you think you should be fired?
It is silly to hang this on an outstanding woman who is willing to serve her country – a country who would try to condemn and smear her over NOTHING.
Dredd – if it is good enough for Navy SEALS it is good enough for terrorists.
Dredd,
The vast majority of politicians are usually appealing to “popular” issues with the voters and campaign money.
The Judicial Branch, courts, are supposed to enforce “unpopular” constitutional issues even when those issues are unpopular with voters at that time in history (Ex: women’s rights, African-American rights, gay rights, etc.)
Today the last word on “unpopular” constitutional issues, U.S. Supreme Court, appears to have become political instead of interpreting our Bill of Rights as written. For example, the 4th Amendment is extremely clear in it’s meaning and could be amended instead if being distorted by the court. Today’s hearing on cell phone searches is a perfect test – there is no safety factor for an officer to snoop through your cell phone without a warrant. How could that possibly square with the 4th Amendment as written?
Elizabeth Warren may have the right stuff to compensate for a U.S. Supreme Court that has politicized our Bill of Rights in my view and seems to represent the rich and powerful.
According to Warren’s family it was all a rumor, not fact, but she not only made it fact but registered as minority faculty at Harvard. Now Harvard will not release her employment information, but they touted her as a woman of color to make their quota. She smeared herself. The Cherokee are pretty upset with her.
Actually I know quite a bit about one side of my family, less about the other. My uncle was a professional genealogist and did his side of the family including tracking down family rumors, one of which turned out to be true. Plus, he found a bunch of stuff we never knew about. Very cool. There is no Indian blood in my family, real or pretend.
Paul Schulte
You guys are aware that as part of their training Navy SEALS are water-boarded.
===========
So dumb things done at a seal boot-camp establish human rights, international treaties, and U.S. criminal law?
(President Reagan Puts Cheney In Jail).
Paul S says he doesn’t want someone who has memory problems running our country.
Would that include Raygun?
He had very bad memory problems when asked about selling arms to Iran.
Hillary’s memory loss was historic. She barely could remember her name. If aides had not come with her to the hearing room, she would not have been able to find it after the break.
Darren Smith,
Did the US government force down the plane? I thought it was some other European country.
Thanks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/us/politics/with-eyes-on-possible-clinton-run-questions-on-room-for-other-women.html A woman pres and vp candidate?
Ross, I’ve been following Elizabeth Warren for a long time and find her to be a breath of fresh air. Her lectures on YouTube are excellent and when she gives a speech she has that quality that can get the base to see economic issues as they are and a way forward. She would make a very strong candidate.
Will we ever have another president who does not think like Bush II, and Obama on these matters?
At this juncture Clinton is the favored democratic candidate, and I see her as being the same as Bush II and Obama on these matters.
Think Annie is right on with Elizabeth Warren – Democrats should be opposed to torture, drones, domestic spying, oligarchy, etc.
Clinton just split the votes for voters that value the constitutional rule of law and believe in American government – not oligarchies.
This time may be different – we were fooled by Bush and were led to believe Obama would reverse those policies – it appears the elites in both parties are more alike than different. Voters are tired of choosing the lesser of the two evils.
Deletion Notice: I have deleted a comment by Paul about another poster that I consider personal and a violation of the civility rule. I also deleted a response to try to end this personal exchange.
“just playing the game the way it is played here. ”
I fail to see how unsupported conspiracy theory is relevant to the posted topic.
James – read my reply at 1:10 pm
always anonymous – just playing the game the way it is played here. Chuck, RTC, Elaine, Annie and ap taught me a lot about how this operates. There is a certain hypocrisy where people demand answers from you but will not supply answers themselves. So, I just follow their lead. They have been here longer than me.
“As I have told many of you on here before, you need to read what I said”
“as you know, I do not either follow orders or directions.”
The Dishing It Out The Taking It. Nor does it seem in any way manly to boss others while accusing them of doing the same.
Waterboarding remains torture.
always anonymous – I am who I am. If you can prove that I am not who I am, go for it. 🙂
Paul Schulte to Annie – “as you know, I do not either follow orders or directions.”
But you have no problem dishing them out, do you?
James Knauer, today at 1:02
“Anon, agreed. I miss Gene and Mike. They were able to cut through anyone’s B.S.”
Yep.