Obamacare Architect States That The Law Was Only Passed Due To “The Lack of Transparency” and The “Stupidity of the American Voter” UPDATED

Screen Shot 2014-11-11 at 9.26.38 AMWe previously discussed the statements of Jonathan Gruber, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology economist who played a major role the ACA, or “Obamacare,” where he repeatedly endorsed the theory at the heart of the recent decisions in Halbig and King by challengers to the ACA: to wit, that the federal funding provision was a quid pro quo device to reward states with their own exchanges and to punish those that force the creation of federal exchanges. That issue will now be decided by the United States Supreme Court. Gruber caused a considerable controversy when, after he had denounced the theory as “nutty” during the arguments in Halbig and King, he was shown later to have embraced that same interpretation. Having been paid almost $400,000 as an architect of the ACA, Gruber has become a major liability in the litigation. Now Gruber is back in the news with an equally startling admission that the Obama Administration (and Gruber) succeeded in passing the ACA only by engineering a “lack of transparency” on the details and relying on “the stupidity of the American voter.”

Gruber’s remarks were made on a panel given roughly a year ago on Oct. 17, 2013. Notably, this was at the height of the tension over the ACA. While I have long supported national health care, I was critical of the sloppy drafting of the ACA, the federalism conflicts contained in the individual mandate provision, and the unsupportable claims made by the White House in selling the Act. The last concern was the subject of Gruber’s comments. Gruber told the crowd that the “Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage.” He also said that “basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical for the thing to pass.”

Gruber also later states that New York Sen. Chuck Schumer (D.) is someone who “as far as I can tell, doesn’t understand economics” while calling a staffer for Sen. Olympia Snowe (R., Maine) an “idiot.” The later reference appears to be a reference to aide William Pewen.

The specific comments on the bill are transcribed as follows:

“This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies. Okay, so it’s written to do that. In terms of risk rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in – you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed… Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really really critical for the thing to pass… Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.”

I was concerned that these lines were taken out of context so I watched the video below:

What is fascinating is that Gruber is open about what has long been hidden in this Administration: the lack of transparency as a tactical political vehicle. The ACA was pushed through by a muscle vote on a handful of votes while the Administration made claims that he later had to admit were misleading at best, such as the President’s repeated assurance that citizens could keep your current insurance policy if you liked it.

Gruber also admits that the Administration crafted the law to avoid it being supported by a tax despite Chief Justice John Roberts’ later decision that it was a tax. Gruber says that, while he would have preferred to be honest and open, such considerations had to be set aside in the interests of passing the law — even by less than honest means.

In a truly ironic twist, the University of Pennsylvania tried to pull back the admission on the lack of transparency by pulling the video:


It was too late. The video was out.

In fairness to Gruber, he was doing what an academic is supposed to do in honestly assessing what he believed occurred in the historic passage of the ACA. While he later sought to deny the earlier comments that he made on the state exchanges (in a less than candid moment), there is thus far no comment from him on this latest video. As in the earlier admissions, there has been little relative coverage by the mainstream media of the comments. Once again, the lack of media attention is surprising given the importance of Gruber to the ACA and the Administration.

Jonathan-Gruber-1UPDATE: Gruber went on MSNBC to say that his comments were “inappropriate” while the host insisted that his comments were misunderstood as “nuanced” observations.

311 thoughts on “Obamacare Architect States That The Law Was Only Passed Due To “The Lack of Transparency” and The “Stupidity of the American Voter” UPDATED

  1. Thanks for posting this. I’ve see it elsewhere but wanted your take on this. The lack of transparency and abject derision for voters is the Chicago way.

  2. Lol…what is most hypocritical is the author of this article ignoring the analogous “lack of transparency” in the GOP passage of the Medicare Part D law in 2003–particularly the fact that it would have a huge gap in coverage for consumers–and the fact the CMS Administrator was essentially fired for being proven to have given knowingly false cost estimates to Congress.

  3. I really doubt if the SC will consider his testimony although it would be fun to see. It puts the court at odds with the crafters off the bill. Most transparent government evah!!!!

  4. I don’t see any of our lefty friends commenting.

    Speak up guys, this is your chance to blame Bush.

    Amazing how silent they are when the facts are indefensible.

  5. Until partisans stop saying, “but Bush” and acknowledge the failings of the current President, as Turley to his credit does, the country will always be at risk.

    Why stop at Bush? Why not but Nixon? but Roosevelt, but Jackson?

    We need to sop defending our parties and personalities to the death and start defending the Constitution and truth to the death. What better day to start than Veteran’s Day?

  6. While I don’t endorse use of the tactics which gruber says were used to get the ACA passed, I’m wondering when was the last time we had actual transparency during the process of enacting legislation of any significance. Legislation is frequently written by lobbyists who get language inserted, sometimes at the 11th hour, often without debate. Just as one example, the enactment of the Patriot Act was equally deplorable from a standpoint of transparency.

    I’m not holding my breath for Scalia to ignore Gruber in the written opinions that will be issued after the latest ACA case is argued. Scalia should ignore Gruber’s statements using Scalia’s own method of statutory construction but likely will not do so. Scalia is one bright dude, but his intellectual honesty is inversely proportional to his ego.

    (There is a good article on the use of textualism to interpret the relevant language of the ACA over at Scotusblog. )

  7. I’m not a fan of Obamacare. And I’m glad Jonathan Gruber spoke out against it. It does concern me, however, that he took nearly $400,000 to help design/implement Obamacare, without expressing his concerns THEN.
    I won’t try to put forward my objections to Obamacare now, but Gruber expressed many of my own feelings about the ill-conceived Obamacare Act.
    Just wish he’d spoken out earlier.

  8. While it is always refreshing when truth manages to rise up from this
    administration, the revelations were well known by those of us
    paying attention at the time. We were called “haters” and conspiracy
    theorists when in fact all we wanted was reform that got care to
    the needy without upending the health care system for everyone else, without giving the federal government control, and without
    costing $3 trillion. (Once the illegals are added on, it will cost
    $3 trillion and we saw that coming also.) What I find stunning is the
    number of people who didn’t know they were being lied to at the time. It’s frightening what havoc a willfully blind and incompetent media can cause. Political correctness is a WMD.

  9. So, Gruber “in fairness” is doing what an academic is supposed to do by NOW being honest about his earlier investment in dishonesty to get his personal opinions on healthcare imbedded in each and every American citizen’s life? Wow…just wow. What we have here are several generations of progressives that have been coached in the self righteousness of their natural entitlement to override other American’s individual right to self management. That entitlement is based on their belief in self as smarter, extending to therefore better able to control the lives of everyone else. Lies, misrepresentations, Orwellian language mechanisms are just seen as Marketing 101 steps/means to the glorious progressive ends. This thinking is at the bottom of the IRS conduct, Benghazi actions/inactions, “smidgeons of corruption”, the ACA, Fast & Furious, EPA false emails, DOJ media targeting AND are supported by the same thinking in the top echelons and lower levels of what is suppose to be the “watch dog” media. It is done with hubris, pride even…and is unconscionable. It’s going to be a long slow process back. But, those that are willing voted and those that are willing are reporting. Those that are willing are speaking out, like the good Professor Turley. Integrity of the Democratic Republic that is America depends on it.

  10. @ Tom

    It doesn’t seem as if Gruber is expressing any concerns about the ACA/Obamacare. He is proud of the deceptions, the convoluted language and that they managed to ‘pull one over’ on the stupid American voter.

    Gotta break a whole lot of eggs to make THIS omelet and then force feed it to the American public.

  11. We folks from the outside are waiting to see if the Republican Party holds true to its promise to the American voters in this past election. They are going to repeal ObamaCare as soon as new guys are sworn in. You folks can then go back to Blue Cross Blue Shield. Then you can also stop trying to force any human to not smoke tobacco. I know that Boehner and his crew all do. The medical care approach and the smoking habits will keep the population down and not let the seniors get too old. This is a plan which we promoted on another planet and it worked fairly well. My take on this is that the new Republicons take office in January, pass a bill by the end of the month and then wait for the President to veto it. Then pass a vote to over ride the veto. this should all be done by June. If not then you folks who voted for these new guys need to inquire as to why it is so slow. Maybe they are liars and really like Obamacare. Maybe they have a kid with a pre existing condition who needs Obomacare in order to get any insurance coverage and hence survive.
    If some clunk got cancer from smoking up on Remulak we would not wait for him to have his battle with cancer but would pull the plug so to speak.

  12. On my page it is not showing the video so I do not know if it is the original 1 1/2 hours or the 53 second clip that Squeeky and the right are touting which is taken out of context. He said what he said but context matters

  13. So…leejcaroll

    Are you applying this same context matters philosophy to the Rush Limbaugh law suit. Where the DNC took a few second sound bite from a rather long segment, put it into political advertisements and claimed that Rush is supporting rape and then tried to coerce his advertisers to pull their ads in an effort to drive him off of the air and to economically harm him and his advertisers?????

    If context matters, then you should be DEFENDING Rush Limbaugh.


  14. The Gruber comments underscore how far our Nation has drifted from the Constitution. One can only wonder how insignificant our Constitution will become in another hundred years. The rise and fall of Nation’s rests on the soundness of it’s founding documents and willingness of it’s citizens to abide by those documents. Are we at a tipping point with this Administration or perhaps the next? How do we move back to the principles of our founders? Perhaps the Gruber comments will energize the disengaged electorate.

  15. There are simply too many business folks scamming the health care system. It was a far more rational system when it was just doctors and nurses taking care of sick people.

  16. If you support national health care, how do you get around this sarcastic observation by Bryce Buchanan:

    The “Affordable Care Act” will reduce the cost and increase the quality of health care, because if you want something done efficiently and economically, then you definitely want unionized government bureaucracies to handle it. History has demonstrated that bureaucrats provide efficient service at lower cost. If we can eliminate consumer choices and let a government monopoly take care of things, like managing all health care, that is a dream worth fighting for.

  17. Shocked? No, Will anything come of this news? No. So who cares/what does it matter? This country is done until a real meltdown happens.

  18. DBQ –

    Don’t ask them to be logically consistent. We all know that Rush is an enemy of the state that needs to be ruthlessly destroyed at any and all cost. Truth is not an obstacle.

    I’m not surprised that our usual friends on the left are noticeably absent. I’d like to hear what a few of them have to say, but I’d wager they’d take the same route as leejcaroll and question the context and then disappear.

  19. Donald – “Apparently not. Turley even said how little the media is NOT playing the video even though the University pulled it.”

    Donald, that’s because this is all just another ginned up FOX news story.

  20. Once again, the lack of media attention is surprising given the importance of Gruber to the ACA and the Administration.

    I doubt that the MSM will report this with any depth at all. The news departments of the three networks are interlocked with relatives and colleagues in the White House, CNN and MSNBC are not inclined to do much more than cheer for the Obama team. FNC has and will continue to cover the story, and the big print media will ignore it.

    I’m so naive that I thought it was the role of lawmakers to actually make the laws. What a rube I am. Turns out that that role is subcontracted to unaccountable academics, lobbing firms, and interest groups, many of which hold progressive beliefs that are in contradiction to writing a law in a manner that best serves all Americans, and not just the adherents of one side of the political spectrum.

    The claim of transparency is just part of the taqqiya Barack Obama used to gain election.

  21. Here what this liberal has to say, the ACA sucks canal water. But it still provides health care coverage to those with preexisting conditions and those who had no insurance. Having said that, I’d be happy to see it repealed. Then we would see just who stepped up to replace the ACA with something that covers preexisting conditions and is affordable enough for most people, good luck with that. OR somebody will actually recognize the need for a dual system, a Public Option, like Medicare for All and another one for those who wish to purchase health care totally privately. Medicare would require a supplemental insurance plan for most people. For the very poor Medicaid supplements Medicare, which it already does for some disabled with a low enough SS payment. I disliked the ACA from the time it was evident that it was just a big fat wet kiss to health insurance companies, just like Medicare Part D. Good riddance to the ACA now on to something different, we put a man on the moon, we can do this. We better do it fast too, there are people who will die for lack of health care. There should be no going backwards.

    As for the video, well he finally told the truth. The Public Option would be wildly popular, Medicare is already set up, all it would need is to be expanded. For you rich folks, you could buy your private plans if you so desire.

  22. Also poll after poll shows that seniors and disabled who have Medicare, love it. It isn’t Single Payer, before someone comes along to claim it is.

  23. I just saw this video yesterday.

    There has been scandal after scandal revealing the lies this law was built upon.

    And yet, STILL, true believers support it.

    This video reveals Mr Gruber thought he knew better than the American people what was good for us. He felt justified in deceiving us because it was for our own good, in his opinion.

    THIS is how our politicians think of us. THIS is how they handle us. Delaying the employer mandate until after a major election is another testament to how stupid politicians think we are.

    Our politicians are only as honest as we require them to be.

    This is our fault. Enough scandals have come out with this law that there should have been major consequences for all parties involved. Sure, 28 senators who voted for it are no longer in office. But since the employer mandate hasn’t hit yet, the American people haven’t really felt the pain yet. So the politicians keep getting away with it.

    If we don’t demand consequences when our politicians lie to us, then it is no one’s fault but our own when they do. We the people have created a ruling government class, above the law, with our votes and our apathy.

  24. When someone is digging a hole, just stand back and watch. The concept that the govt. can do a competent job on ANYTHING has been exposed to ANYONE w/ a brain. Long after Obama is an old man playing golf, his legacy of arrogance, lawlessness and incompetence will be remembered. We should all thank him, and all of the cultists who defend him. They give this all a certain clarity.

  25. Nick – right. When has a government bureaucracy ever made anything better for a lower cost?

    You know what we need? An administrator between us and our doctor! More red tape! More procurement messes where we overpay and they under deliver!

    It’s like a Monty Python skit.:)

  26. Annie, If I’m a rich folk, why would I pay for insurance if I can get it “free” from the nanny state? Or, are you admitting right off the bat that the nanny state insurance will be sub-par to what someone can get in the free market with a private plan?

  27. Then we would see just who stepped up to replace the ACA with something that covers preexisting conditions and is affordable enough for most people, good luck with that.

    I’d suggest folks look at the FEHBP adaptation proposed by men as diverse and John Kerry (2004) and Daryl Issa with HR 3319 (2013). No new database required, no pre-existing condition prohibitions, portable, and entirely private sector operated saved the anual contract from OPM. At most would required a few more GS-9 thru GS-12’s be hired…no new bureaucracy.

    What a concept.

  28. Karen,
    You must be forgetting that you already have an administrator between you and your doctor with your private plan. Secondly, there isn’t an administrator between you and your doctor with the ACA. And the ACA has slowed down the increase iin health insurance already.
    There is no way a single payer plan would be acceptable to this Congress. They would filibuster it in the Senate, even if we still had the majority. They have to answer to their corporate masters on every issue. Most of us would prefer single payer, but the only way I see that happening is over time, starting with the ACA.

  29. Aridog,
    The ACA was an Republican idea so why do you think Issa would even vote for HR 3319? The Republicans have been filibustering their own co-sponsored bills so I wouldn’t bet any money that any plan would make it through the current Congress or even next years Congress.

  30. You would have a choice. I’d pick the Public Option too! as would most people. Plus you wouldn get it free. There is a premium and you would have to bu a private supplemental plan, like people do now. Plus I believe the Premium goes up according to income to a certain point. Medicare is working well.

    Aridog, glad to see you back commenting again. Hope you’re feeling well. Your suggestion is also a good one. Choices are always good.

  31. I think we çould have more than one system. No coercing people to sign on to something they don’t want to. Make the Public Option so great that most will gladly sign on to it.

  32. Rafflaw, one reason for Democrats to get out to vote in a HUGE way in 2016. As long as a Republican House, Senate or Congress exists, it’s status quo.

  33. This nonsense about the ‘Chicago Way’ is the stuff of low a IQ’s argument. This is the sausage making of all government. The difference between the sausage making that is Obama care and the sausage making carried on for eight years by the three stooges is that Obama care intends to make it better for Americans regarding lowering the costs of health care. Obama was the only one who did anything about it. All first moves to turn around a perverse system such as that which has metastasized in America for the past many decades is going to be fraught with problems. You fix the problems and continue on to cut the cancer out.

    Now consider the history of the sausage making of the republican party. Reagan’s sausage making gave us criminal actions on a world size scale with the Iran/Contra crimes, Cowardly behavior that destroyed any credibility America had for decades when he pulled the Marines out of Lebanon, an eight year recession because he lowered taxes and raised spending-(something he admitted to later on TV), and so on. The three stooges erased a surplus and left the US with the largest deficit in history, criminally under false pretenses invaded and destroyed Iraq, lowered taxes when income was most needed, bungled the criminal war in Iraq, bungled the war in Afghanistan, accelerated the damage being done by Wall Street, and so on-(there is so much more but Americans don’t want to remember and it hurts too much).

    Honestly put the sausage making of the past six years up against Reagan’s and that of the three stooges, and then speak. Reagan was a disaster that was disguised by his rhetoric. The three stooges were in power by fraud and during a time the country was on a war footing. After 9/11 the country was so galvanized that Mickey Mouse could have been President. Mickey would have done a better job.

  34. I just find it funny that when other people behave badly, some people were gleefully silent about it, and when it is pointed out that this Administration is as bad as those before it, those silent people cry about how the lefties blame Bush.

    My question; is it ever appropriate to point out that the current Administration is acting like the previous one? Or are we to ignore the rest of history so that the people that were OK when their side when it lied and cheated to the American people can feel righteous when they point out the same shameful behavior of the current President.

    Lying to the American people and hiding the truth is an old tactic, stop pretending that Obama was the only one, or the worst.

    Bush will be remembered for starting a war based on lies and the political aspirations of the men that controlled him. Obama will be remembered for convincing the American public that we was any better than Bush.

    But no one will blame the actual villains.The American people allowed this lawlessness by allowing elections to be bought. We vote in the worst of humanity, then whine about how bad they do their jobs.

    Stop blaming the people that are doing exactly what they were elected to do, and start owning the blame. America has exactly the government it deserves.

    But please, keep blaming it all on the President. it is a lot easier to do, plus it leaves time for Americans to focus on the important issues like sports and celebrity gossip.

  35. Annie – Nothing is FREE. There is no FREE lunch. There is no FREE insurance. Somebody is paying for it. If you are not, your kids are paying for you. And Medicare is not working all that well. A significant number of doctors have stopped taking Medicare patients. If I went on Medicare I would probably lose all of my current doctors.

  36. Raflaw…the ACA as written now and passed is by no means a Republican idea. I suspect Issa might vote for HR 3319 because he wrote and sponsored it. Either way, they had a chance dating back to 2004 (Kerry) and before to do the intelligent thing, and Mr Gruber just explained why they did not accept it. When you hit 65 and are on Medicare I suspect you will figure it out. The public option will not be the nirvana so many think. Dealing with serious conditions, you would be surprised at what it does not cover…and I have been there done that. Still am. If I did not have FEHBP supplementary coverage I could not afford any coverage due to deductibles.

  37. Paul, again it’s not free, people pay premiums, get it? Ask people who use Medicare, they love it. Your current doctors are replaceable. I had to change doctors several times with group insurance through work, I survived and actually found some excellent docs. I know many people on Medicare, not ONE has had any problem finding a doctor, not one.

  38. Annie…thanks for the remark. Please tell your Corpsman daughter that she has the tip of my hat, since her job is among the toughest there are in the military.

  39. Paul, Annie shows that her plan is just another way to stick it to those evil responsible rich people with this comment –

    “Plus I believe the Premium goes up according to income to a certain point.”

    Plus those rich get to then pay again for a health care service that is better than the what the Nanny State will be providing. It’s always about redistribution for the progressives.

  40. Karen S…I am okay now, and my point was simply that the FEHBP adaptation would make it much less hassle for everyone, even employers. It works well for me 90% of the time. It made way too much sense is why it was by-passed in my opinion. A system with a 50+ year successful track record…like why would the idiots in DC go for that instead of a new POS? Go figure. Thank you for you good wishes.

  41. Jim, Medicare is already doing so, and rightfully so. There is a cap to the monthly premium, BTW. It’s still an excellent deal. What I don’t understand is the rigid adherence to an ideological mind set. There are things the government does that works, Medicare is one of them.

  42. Paul…correct, but only a fool passes on Part B, and a good supplement. I include even those will full military VA coverage, such as it is today. Many of my police and fire retiree friends (Detroit police and fire folk lost all their health care coverage) have had to go to AARP for a supplement to A & B…those not yet 65 are screwed.

  43. Annie – I do not like change. I develop relationships with people. If I do not like the people, including the doctor, I do not deal with them. Building new relationships takes time and energy.

  44. Annie….As I have said elsewhere, though today is Veterans’ Day, everyone in the US of A contributed in some way, none of us in the field could have survived without that support, so today is for all of us….from Rosie the Riveter on forward. No soldier fights alone.

  45. Aridog – my wife has a Cadillac policy that I am covered under. It is better and cheaper than Medicare plus a supplement.

  46. Paul, that’s too bad and I send you my sympathy, but the rest of the nation needs a workable affordable doable healthcare system.

  47. I demand that our Congress repeal Obamacare. And Medicare while they are at it. We need what McConnell and those Koch Brothers say we need. Quit going to doctors anyway. If you are religious then pray for good health. Boycott hospitals. See if your dog’s vet will see you on the sly. My vet treats my half blind human whom I guide round.

  48. itchinBayDog here. You folks walking around on two legs need to stand on your own two legs and renounce socialism and communism. Medical insurance is just another specie of socialism. Each pay your own way. Each bargain for a better deal. This is why we dogs have a phrase:
    Four legs good, two legs baaaaad! You folks need to make the Republicans do what they promised. Repeal Obamacare and Socialized medical care of all stripes. Blue Cross is socialized medicine. Try to nail that Blue Cross on the wall and it will bleed blood which is red not blue. Republicon if you know what I mean. Do away with all that. Get rid of censorship too. I can not even spell my name on this blog unless I resort to Pig Latin.

  49. Paul…unless the ACA is changed sooner than later, that Cadillac policy may wind up with an annual 40% or so “fee” (aka a tax per John Roberts). Heck, I am even afraid my FEHBP coverage is at risk for that. My deductible is tiny and co-pays are very minimal, actually less than what the contract calls for…we can’t have that now can we:-)

  50. Mr. Turley
    The Obamacare architect admits lying to the Congressional Budget Office and depending on the American voter not knowing what is going on and you say
    “Once again, the lack of media attention is surprising…”
    Why? How was the American voter supposed to know given that the media never provided the facts in the first place?

  51. This story reminds me of something…

    I had great hearing when I joined the Navy and that was essential to my job as a Sonar Technician. Hearing loss is just one of the many occupational hazards associated with the shipboard environment. We would have routine audio-grams and after awhile, I would pretend (click the button) even when I couldn’t hear the tone so I could pass. I was only fooling myself and it was not surprising to have my baseline reset as a result of the loss. I never really understood what good resetting my baseline did for me as they never treated the loss; it seemed to be more of a paperwork drill. Had I took the time to do something about it back then, I would not have the damage today.

    The vetting of candidates for President is about setting an accurate baseline expectation of future constitutional governance. If done objectively and thoroughly, we’ll weed out those that will fail and only select those from which a reasonable baseline can be deduced. Obama is an anomaly in that not only did he not provide anything to set a baseline; he was artificially granted one inversely proportional to his vacant public record. Logically, the only place to go was down and as he stumbled through his first inaugural address, it may have begun sooner than expected.

    Obama has provided numerous opportunities for reasonable people to reset their baseline of his presidency; certainly much lower than where it currently exists. I can even understand why his supporters, though tone-deaf, have been ‘clicking’ their way through his presidency. But what amount of damage will be enough for them to finally admit this entire administration has lived up to the baseline it deserved; not the baseline it was granted?

  52. unless I am very badly informed, once you reach 65 you will be on Medicare, like it or not.

    If you are currently working and covered by an employer plan or covered under your spouse’s employer plan you can opt out of Medicare Part B and D without the penalties that would occur if you just didn’t opt in. Part A is there whether you like it or not, but there is NO COST for part A since you have already paid in during your working life. Part A basically covers doodely squat and many providers are choosing not to take on Medicare patients.

    Part B currently costs about @$100 a month if you opt in. A Medicare Supplemental plan will pay for the parts that A and B do not pay. It can cost around $130 a month depending on which level of coverage you choose and your geographical location. If you are not covered under an employer plan you are charged a premium penalty for every year you don’t sign up and fork over that $100 a month. Same thing with Part D. Premium penalties for not signing up even if you take NO prescriptions.

    Our current doctor is retiring because of Obamacare. The costs to his office are huge. This will leave one doctor, a new guy right out of med school, in the office and a PA. Not only does it not pay enough to cover the cost of the services he provides, it requires additional personnel to do all of the mandated computerized record keeping. He has to have additional people to process all of the paperwork and keep track of all of the bazillion codes. It requires that he has an assistant at every doctor/patient meeting to type in all of the computerized information and codes during the examination. Either that or he spends all of his time fighting with a computer instead of examining patients.

    Obamacare is intrusive and expensive.

    As a result of several doctors in our small rural practices are quitting, the hospital is seeing less business because people have to go to another town to see their doctors and are referred to those hospitals. The hospital is in very poor financial shape and may be closing as anything other than an emergency care/ER. This will be devastating to the economy and an extreme hardship for people who need hospitalization care.

    The next hospital is over 90 miles away. The next doctor’s office, should this one completely close is about 60 miles away. Many of THOSE doctors also do not take medicare or medicaid or any other insurance. They are by contract only. Buy a membership and get a set of routine services available for that fee. Additional services and diagnostic procedures are charged ala carte. Referrals to specialists are available……many of whom are also opting out of the insurance system.

    So…if you live in SF or NYC….you might still have some choices on doctors. Live in the suburbs or further out….you are screwed.

    Thanks Obama. Thanks Democraps.

  53. Annie
    Maybe it’s in some of these messages somewhere but in your dozen comments telling people how great your Medicare is, please tell the readers what private insurance you use as a supplement. Almost everyone on Medicare (over 90%) has a supplement of some type because Medicare is so bad. If you are part of the less than 10% who don’t supplement Medicare, you are either very rich or feeling very very lucky


    Co-conspirators in the abuse of power by the government against the people, including acts to defraud, to unconstitutionally impose Obamacare.

    Obama, Gruber, Chief Justice John Roberts et al. shall be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for corruption, negligence, dereliction, subversion, insurrection and treason, with aggravated “hate crime” charges for allegations of “stupidity” as insubordination of the sovereignty of the American people.

    These actions are egregious and actionable with impeachment and conviction imperative and the sole remaining ethical, moral and legal course.

  55. California doctors boycotting Covered California/Obamacare


    Independent insurance brokers who work with both insurance companies and doctor networks estimate that about 70 percent of California’s 104,000 licensed doctors are boycotting the exchange.


    not only are many doctors not participating, but many are also thinking of retiring.

    “I just turned 55, and a lot of us are kind of going, ‘Maybe there’s something else we can do in the last 10 years,’ because this is just getting too onerous to keep on going.”

  56. If I can butt in here, I would personally like to see the medical establishment protections restructured before any new program from the government is put in place. People seem to think medical costs are “untouchable” or “a phenomenon” like the weather. I would like to see more market forces in the healthcare arena, instead of cost protections. All you have to do is look at some projected costs and realize, no matter who is paying for it now, it can’t continue. I don’t wish anyone poor fortune in life, but I think if my neighbor ENT had 4 merks instead of 6 I would feel a little better about it.

  57. At 65 you get signed up for medicare. Part A, hospitalization, is at no additional charge. Part B, covering the rest of it, is deducted from your SS, and you are signed up for it automatically. You can opt out but if you change your mind later you have to pay extra for every year that you were opted out and the extra premium is forever. Medicare has an annual deductible, there are co-pays, and it doesn’t cover everything. When you are signed up you will get a book every year written in government speak that tells you what’s what.

  58. Slohrss, cost containment is essential. It may be painful, but one day the bubble will burst and it will hurt even more when that happens.

  59. In case anyone has the time and the endurance level, the entire 51 minutes of video from that conference is here: http://ldi.upenn.edu/ahec2013/agenda

    The other economist on the panel, Mark Pauly, had a way of seeming to agree w/ Gruber while actually criticizing just about every aspect of the ACA. What really comes thru in the entire video is how weak the economic arguments for the ACA really are. Pretty much both speakers agreed that it was a good idea to eliminate the economic distortion created by the tax exemption for employer-provided insurance, but beyond that their arguments hinged on blatant paternalism.

    I agree w/ Pauly that the only real policy we need to cover people w/ pre-existing conditions is a federal high-risk pool. And we should remember that a lot of states already had such pools before O’care.

    The ACA is an exercise in social engineering unprecedented in scope, foisted upon us by arrogant fools who consider themselves our betters. It is the antithesis of how policy should be designed, debated, and enacted in a free society.

  60. Annie

    I for one do not find it impressive that you paste in a bunch of links to far left wing web sites like the Columbia Journalism Review and WaPo. Why not just tell the people on this thread the truth: You do not depend on Medicare.

    I am not criticizing you, just asking you to be honest with the other people reading this. Almost no one Medicare depends on Medicare. On average, Medicare covers less than half the healthcare costs of a person on Medicare. (On the PPACA Bronze-Platinum scale, Medicare is Cardboard Insurance.) It has lifetime and per-incident limits on coverage. It has very high co-pays and deductibles. It has no annual out of pocket spending limit. It does not cover self-administered drugs. It does not cover vision, dental or hearing services. It does not even cover an annual physical.

  61. DBQ I heard what Rush said. I don’t know about any lawsuit but he said what he said, it was not taken out of context. Had it been unlike a lot of you folk here, I defend both sides when their rights are abridged or their words taken out of context (53 seconds of 1 1/2 hours???really??) to make them appear to be saying what they didn’t as well of course as acting as though this is new information.

  62. Dennis, I try to not reveal private information about myself here on a public forum. BUT I will do so in this case, risking some weirdo invading my privacy again. I most certainly do rely on Medicare and I do use an AARP United Healhcare supplemental policy. I get excellent care and have not had one issue with finding a doctor. Use the same clinic and even some of the same docs my daughter’s family who have private health insurance does. I am not hiding a damn thing as I said several times now that we are ALL aware that Medicare does have deductibles. DUH.

  63. Dennis Byron,
    And Medicare most certainly does cover an annual physical. You are not informed about Medicare, that is obvious.

  64. In fact it was all over the news when it was news in 2013 when it was said.

    As to someone else who said I (and he expects others) to disapper, I actually 1) have other things to do besides sit here and wait with baited breath for you to reply and 2) I have an eye pain disorder so I don’t just sit and read and respond. (In fact I will often miss some replies because I can’t get thru them all)

  65. Nick The gov’t has done very competent job with medicare and social security. I have never had one late payment fro SSD and medicare has always done it’s job for me,

  66. @ leejcaroll

    So…taking a few seconds out of a presentation is a bad thing Gruber…this is NOT keeping it in context when it is someone you agree with. But it is perfectly find to do the same thing. Isolating a few seconds of a lengthy monologue from someone keeps it IN context when it is someone you don’t like or don’t agree with, Limbaugh.

    One is acceptable to you and one isn’t even though they are essentially the same thing.

    Got it.

    The hypocrisy is incredible. Some people are so completely unaware of their own selves…. it is amazing.

  67. LeeJ,
    I don’t understand this entrenched attitude by ideologists. Even Tea Party seniors held signs saying, “Keep your government hands off my Medicare!” Poll after poll show Americans on both sides of the political spectrum love SS and Medicare. I would suggest that these ideologues, opt out of Medicare Part B when the time comes and then they can remain true to their ideologically driven ideas.

  68. Annie

    Just to be clear, no one was asking for any personal information. All you had to simply say was that you do not really depend on Medicare but really depend on a private Medigap Medicare supplement plan. Of course you get the same coverage as provided with the private health insurance your daughter’s family has; you have private health insurance. However you still probably do not have the annual out of pocket spending limit guaranteed to those under 65 and –depending on where you live and when you signed up–AARP could have chosen not to sell you that Medigap insurance if it felt you had a preexisting condition — again something that is not allowed for people under 65,

    You’re right, Medicare is great! For such terrible coverage, you have to have to deal with two or three insurance companies and still have no vision, dental, hearing, self-administered drug coverage or coverage of important preventive care. (Since you say you are not hiding anything, I guess you mean to say that you are taking the risk of not having Part D prescription drug coverage. If you do have Part D, make that three or four insurance companies and still no catastrophic coverage)

  69. LeeJ, some people would love for the disabled to simply disappear from the face of the earth. Why do we hear more of this rhetoric from Glibertarians? I will never forget the people yell, “Let them die!” during the Presidential debates.

  70. Dennis, Medicare is a god send to many who have had no coverage. Medicare is popular among Americans, something you cannot deny. It serves me well. Better than no healthcare.

  71. Annie

    I actually know quite a bit about Medicare which is why I get disturbed about people like yourself distributing bad information about it. Medicare absolutely does not cover an annual physical exam. You apparently do not understand the difference between an annual wellness visit and a physical. See the description of a wellness visit on page 60 of “Medicare and You.” At a physical, something physical happens… typically with tongue depressors and a stethoscope and the medical professional’s hands (and depending on gender, finger).

  72. I have no problems what so ever getting my meds, they are affordable. I don’t like Medicare Part D being administerd through private health insurance companies and we would’ve been better served to incorporate it into regular Medicare who could’ve negotiated prices. It is NO problem accessing Medicare coverage, either A, B or D.

  73. Dennis, There are some people here who NEVER admit when they are wrong or when they get caught dissembling, and never apologize for transgressions. It’s the hardcore liberal credo.

  74. Dennis,
    I just had my yearly physical, I’m not sure what the heck you want. My care is excellent. I don think you know as much about Medicare as you suggest or you have an agenda to disparage it. That is exceedingly clear.

  75. No first of all you give no click to show what he said or how it was taken out of context and nmade to be something it was not, (and I said, but you love to ignore that, that what Gruber said was wrong, meaning a wrong thing if it was the case so I am not giving him a free pass) 53 seconds out of 1 1/2 hours again
    ANd again he was wrong but this is more of what he said “Mark [Pauly] made a couple of comments that I do want to take issue with, one about transparency in financing and the other is about moving from community rating to risk-rated subsidies. You can’t do it politically. You just literally cannot do it, okay, transparent financing…and also transparent spending.” Gruber said. “In terms of risk-rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in—you made explicit that healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed, okay. Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical for the thing to pass…Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this lahttp://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/11/10/aca-architect-the-stupidity-of-the-american-voter-led-us-to-hide-obamacares-tax-hikes-and-subsidies-from-the-public/w than not.” This from article by the right leaning forbes opinion writer.
    Sadly he is and was right. Oh first of all it was not the voters who passed the ACA so his disrespect for the voters is meaningless, absent his disrespect for them. You cannot do it politically.
    He is also wrong we already subsidize those who don’t have health insurance/can’t afford it so this is nothing new, just a better, to my mind way of doing it since many who couldn’t get insurance, pre existing conditions, etc can and do now have it. They are subsidized thru the state and federal gov’t through medicare, and other state and fed programs.

  76. All

    Correction: I said in a comment directed to Annie at 2:15 pm 11/11 that — depending on gender — a physical exam includes a procedure involving the healthcare professional’s finger. The procedure I have in mind is actually a separate code under Medicare and will be covered by Medicare at any time — once a year — for a 20% co-pay. If you really want to irritate your healthcare professional and you are of that gender, tell him or her that you would like to come in just for that procedure.

  77. Nick

    Thanks. Some people get Medicare prior to age 65 if they have been on Social Security Disability for more than 24 months or have ALS or ESRD. As for the other commenter not being on Medicare, that explains a lot

  78. Dennis, I did not know those unique exclusions to the age 65 requirement for Medicare. I have bookmarked your blog. I’m up for Medicare in a few years, God willing!

  79. Dennis, Spinelli does not know me, nor is he authorized to give out any private info about me, my employment staus, my form of healthcare. He has NO idea about what he asserts about other commenters here. And if he truly knows about private info about over commenters here, he is violating the civility rules by revealing it on this blog. JT has strict rules about respecting other’s privacy here. Now do you see why I said there were creepy weirdos who invade other’s privacy here?

  80. I apologize Mr. Turley. I knew this exchange would get you emailed. I know better than to wade into those waters.

  81. I receive Medicare, NOT Medicaid. The rest of my medical history is NO ONES business here, UNLESS I give out that information about MYSELF.

  82. Then WHY do you constantly DO IT Spinelli? You do not respect other’s privacy. I think your continued presence here on RIL is a gift given to you by JT and you do not seem to know it.

  83. Dennis, I just read your background. Kudos for your volunteer work helping people w/ problems w/ govt. healthcare. But, golly, I’m surprised there are any problems w/ govt. healthcare!! Hopefully there are dedicated and knowledgeable people like yourself helping veterans through the failed VA system.

  84. Annie, Medicare is not single payer. We pay for it and then a portion of the bill. It only took 3 comments to get to Bush. We don’t use Medicare Part D because there are lots of drug benefit plans out there, better and cheaper. The one thing I would like to understand is why, when someone brought up it’s a tax, didn’t it get sent back to Congress to amend? Other courts do this. If it had been sent back to change all euphemisms for tax to TAX it probably would never have passed. The current problem should be fast tracked. We shouldn’t have to be in limbo until June about this major problem.

  85. Sandi, perhaps you didn’t see, but said that it WAS NOT SINGLE PAYER several times now over the last two days and at least once on this thread. Looks like I need to use ALL CAPS, when saying this.

    on 1, November 11, 2014 at 11:54 amAnnie
    Also poll after poll shows that seniors and disabled who have Medicare, love it. It isn’t Single Payer, before someone comes along to claim it is.

  86. Annie, my husband just had his annual “finger” physical and we were billed for the whole thing. If you see your Dr. For something else, and he checks other things, Medicare pays. My objection is they pay for Mammograms, but not Prostate exams. I think that’s sexist!

  87. Sandi, “It only took 3 comments to get to Bush.” Bush signed the medicare reform bill that that included prescription drug coverage. It, also, got off to a rocky start so yes it is relevant.

  88. Sandii, did you read any of the comments I made about Medicare at all? I clearly stated several times it’s not FREE, we pay a PREMIUMS and use supplementals.

  89. Sandi, I had had my annual physical, call it whatever you want. I had extensive labs( blood work) and a thorough exam. I know what an physical exam is, I was a nurse for 35 years. Who knows maybe my doc has a social conscience and gave me a freebie. My exam was thorough.

  90. Annie, My husband went on Medicare this year and loves it. His office visits, tests, and day surgery were covered 100 percent. I have not idea what supplements these posters here buy but they need to get better informed about their choices.

  91. Annie, They either make stuff up or don’t know the facts. In any case, they don’t expect anyone to check the facts as you just did.

  92. We non Dems will stipulate that all you Dems absolutely LOVE Medicare. You love it so much “You want to take it behind the bleachers and get it pregnant,” We get it. All your family love govt. medicine, all your friends love it, the woman you met in the grocery store just his morning loves her govt. medicine. We stipulate to ALL anecdotal quotes of people loving govt. medicine. When it is stipulated to there is NO reason to bring it up. If a new person you know tells you how much they love their govt. medicine simply say, “Previous stipulation” and it will be entered into evidence.

  93. In honor of Veteran’s Day, I want to offer my heartfelt thanks to all those men and women in uniform who serve, as well as their families, who suffer through long absences, missing and worrying about their loved ones on deployment.

    They put themselves between us and danger, and for that, I am very grateful, and honor their sacrifices.

  94. Sorry, my parents were Republicans and they too loved Medicare. Assertions all the day long, no real information about real people. Tea Party protestors love their Medicare also.

  95. Dennis Byron knows more about Medicare than anyone else here. He walks the walk, helping people through the maze as a volunteer. I’ll get my info from him or a former roommate who is about to retire from working for the social security administration. He is a hardcore Dem. He has incredible stories of how Obama has opened the flood gates for SS disability. Those claims have taken over almost all employees time @ the Camden office where he works.

  96. Annie, You do need to read the plans before you sign up or at least consult with someone knowledgeable. Must be out of their reach as they seems to be victimized by medicare or whatever government plan they subscribe too.

  97. “LOL!!! Grammar school has convened.”nick More intelligent and wiser than your crew….. Recipes are better, too.:)

  98. My mother has been covered by Medicare and a supplemental insurance plan for over thirty years. She hasn’t experienced any problems. My husband and I haven’t had any problems either–and we’ve been covered by Medicare and a supplemental plan for three years.

  99. “Obamacare Architect States That The Law Was Only Passed Due To “The Lack of Transparency” and The “Stupidity of the American Voter””

    Just how stupid? Enough to completely ignore the point of the thread and demonstrate ONCE AGAIN, you deserve the government you get!

    It is absolutely unacceptable to have a government that will lie to the people regardless of the supposed “benefits”. This is a severe breach of trust and abuse of power; it is not limited to any particular political party. If you cannot denounce this administration for something this egregious , then you have ZERO credibility on anything.

  100. I can tell I’m hitting nerves when SWM hits below the belt w/ a recipe comment. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel sometimes. Let’s get back to the topic. You and you’re other buddy have said NOTHING about the subject of this post.

  101. Has any other channel, besides Foxnews, shown the video clip of the architect of obamacare in which he shows what democrats really think of voters?

  102. “Observer

    Nick be glad that you are not the sun of swm, just imagine what kind of home atmosphere you would have been subjected to.” Uncivil and personal….. But since I have a loving and successful son in every way imaginable, it does not bother me. He will be here for Thanksgiving in two weeks. He is the best son ever.

  103. Annie. Doesn’t matter…It has happened before. We do have a wonderful son. He has told me to stay of this blog. He is a wise one.

  104. Nick, your opponents are supposedly “prevailing” in defense of a lying, unethical administration. Is there any other point to be made about their character than what they’ve already made themselves?

  105. Jonathan Gruber just appeared on that hard hitting MSNBC Ronan Farrow’s show to apologize for his remarks. Too bad nobody will see his apology but Farrow’s 453 viewers.

  106. Still waiting for substantive comments on the subject of this post. They have presented NO argument on the topic. Jonathan Gruber is the subject, discuss.

  107. socialism must, of necessity, use subterfuge and duplicity. If the American people were given the straight facts and taught economics, they would reject it every time.

    There is no benefit in government run health care.

  108. Olly, I said earlier in this thread, when someone is digging a hole, just let them dig. But, sometimes I do like to kick a little sand back in the hole. “Must be Satan.” Church Lady.

  109. walk, helping people through the maze as a volunteer. I’ll get my info from him or a former roommate who is about to retire from working for the social security administration. He is a hardcore Dem. He has incredible stories of how Obama has opened the flood gates for SS disability. Those claims have taken over almost all employees time @ the Camden office where he works.

    Just saw program yesterday from BarJournal. is info program. They talk about how the ssd system has a backlog of hundred thousand plus. This has happened because they cut personnel so not enough to handle the claims. Prez Obama has nothing to do with it, wanna blame, blame the repubs for their sequestration which they said would be a poison pill and never be made law.
    There is no proof more folks get accepted. As always it has been about 65% denied the first time to help get rid of scammers but people who do reapply can wait one to two years before their appeal is even heard. I will take unbiased administrative judge who heard the cases until he recently retired.
    The lawyers and judge all agree the system is broken but it is because they do not have the personnel.

  110. “What I’ve observed over the years: All administrations lie and do unethical things.”
    And the acceptance and advocacy of this notion by supporters of current and future administrations is one reason abuses will further continue.

  111. Elaine,
    How does it go? Those without sin should cast the first stone? I’ve heard more mea culpas from Democrats here than any Republicans in the year I’ve been commenting here. We’ve criticized Obama ourselves, we didn’t see this during the Bush years from Republicans. He could do no wrong and now Bush amnesia syndrome seems to be a common malady.

  112. Darren, At the core of the problem is the duopoly. We can choose between 2 corrupt and entrenched parties. Pick your poison.

  113. “And the acceptance and advocacy of this notion by supporters of current and future administrations is one reason abuses will further continue”
    unless we finally have a person of integrity in the office who brings into his cabinet people who value honesty and truth.

  114. Jim, I understand your feelings on this, yet to do nothing is a worse course of action. Inertia can take time to increase. This is why we need to keep up the struggle. One matters reach a tipping point often change manifests. Yet if nothing is done then issues stagnate and resuscitating their vigor requires much more effort.

  115. “What I’ve observed over the years: All administrations lie and do unethical things.”

    But the responses from citizens that actually care about the damage it causes DO NOT defend it

  116. Observer, you are right about that. I would prefer a candidate who actually promises and delivers a meritocracy in the cabinet instead of the spoils system that has infected much of politics as of late.

  117. The problem with the current crop of “leaders” is that they think politics is a game and combine that with narcissism and dementia , and you have what we have been getting for several years now.

  118. Darren,
    The mentality of those that support ANY corrupt administration is no different than that of a person that would hire a nanny because they dress the part and speak the part; completely ignoring the fact they are a registered sex offender. What could possibly go wrong? It’s irrational and willfully ignorant.

  119. Darren,

    Unfortunately, many people don’t choose to vote for candidates who tell them the uncomfortable truths that they don’t want to hear. In addition, it can be difficult for honest people to make it through an election season. In these days of Citizens United, the need to raise astronomical amounts of money to run successful state/national campaigns, we can only assume that candidates who win election will most likely feel indebted to the people with deep pockets who donated large sums of money to their campaigns.

  120. On another loosely related topic We need to fully relegate the idea of political dynasty to the past. George H.W. Bush as a two term vice president becomes president. Bill Clinton was new to the federal scene and had two terms, then his vice president ran for the presidency but lost to the son of the penultimate president who then served two terms. Barrack Obama did not come from this political family, he went two terms but so far I don’t see a dynasty from his family. Yet, the wife of one of the presidents ran for office against him.

    Now we are two years away from the next presidential election and much of the speculation as to whom the two candidates we be centers around two other dynasties: One of the Bush sons or Hillary Clinton.

    Prior to this it was the Kennedys, with one of the ultimate forms of nepotism JFK appoints his brother to be the US Attorney General, of course it goes sideways and back with other family members contemporaneously or in the past. There also John Adams and his son, TR and FDR, and others as well.

    The practice of perpetuation of political dynasties as an antithesis of our Constitution where the notion of the ordinary citizens can assume through elections political office. Dynasties preclude others from participation because these positions become a form of birthright rule such as the British House of Lords was in the past.

    The White House must never be akin to the Houses of Hanover, Windsor, or Hohenzollern.

  121. on 1, November 11, 2014 at 4:25 pmByron

    There is no benefit in government run health care.
    Byron, tell that to the millions who love their Medicare. What happened to Paul Ryan when he tried to push Medicare off the cliff? Backlash by left and right alike.

  122. New numbers were just released by the Administration today that shows this failed program is falling woefully short of projected sign ups. All the folks who aren’t paying, or are highly subsidized, have signed up. Hell, I MIGHT consider this horseshit coverage if I didn’t have to pay. But, nobody else wants it. The macro issue is the Savior was elected and he wanted this to be his legacy. So, he and everyone around him lied to get it passed. Well, be careful what you wish for because Obamacare is indeed his legacy, and it will go down as the biggest govt. boondoggle since Prohibition, which was eventually, and righteously, repealed.

  123. Darren/Elaine,
    I believe that despite all the problems , like the current state of the media, Citizen United, etc, we can still have better presidents with integrity and healthy personalities, if , and i know that is a big IF, if people become less prone to getting sucked into a “cult”

  124. Darren:

    I think we’ve turned our back on the Mr Smith Goes to Washington type.

    Although many decry the duopoly, cronyism, pork, special interests (pick a feature, DC is loaded with them,) there seems to be this undercurrent that only a seasoned politician will do for higher office.

    We used to have farmers, soldiers, businessmen, or other citizen of the “real world” take a turn at leading us. But now those types of people are absolutely ridiculed. We, as a people, seem to prefer those whose specialty is theory, rather than anyone who’s ever run a company or other endeavor out in the real economy.

    I, for one, would like to see someone in higher office who’s actually run a successful business, invented something, created some great work, or otherwise actually DONE something, used authority, and created some result. We have think tanks and advisory panels for the theorists.

  125. And, seriously, the above topic of this post should not be in any way controversial. This kind of political fraud should be universally denounced, with political consequences swiftly meted out. It’s unbelievable that people actually disagree on this issue, or bring up the line of Caesars as an excuse.

    It is irrelevant if you like the result, intention, or penmanship of anyone involved. It was deliberate fraud on the voters, and there IS NO EXCUSE.

  126. Nick – only those heavily subsidized would want this coverage. Otherwise, it’s catastrophically more expensive.

    But give it a few years. Unaffordable health care coverage for the middle class will just be accepted as the new norm by a jaded public unwilling to reign in the ruling government elite.

  127. Karen, Some of the folks here have posted numerous comments and not touched the subject of the post even once. As I learned as a PI, you learn as much by what people don’t say, as by what they do.

  128. Well Byron, good luck with that. Those who get Medicare are not necessarily destitute, or should they be. We still take care of our own in this country. They are seniors or the disabled. Those who have children and are poor enough, get Medicaid. There would be a HUGE outcry if these programs, SS, SSDI, Medicare or Medicaid would seriously be in danger of being repealed.

  129. Its from MSNBC but the quote is from a wells fargo investment officer:

    While many of the more conservative Republicans elected on Tuesday made their opposition to the Affordable Care Act a touchstone of their campaigns, there is much less appetite on the part of business leaders for wholesale changes to the health care law.

    For one thing, many of the insurance exchanges are finally working well, and businesses have adapted to the new landscape. Even more important, added demand from the newly insured is likely to increase profits in sectors like hospitals, pharmaceuticals and medical devices.

    “Anything regarding the Affordable Care Act is going to be a stretch,” said John K. Lynch, regional chief investment officer for Wells Fargo Private Bank.


  130. “Citizens United ushered in a boom in dark money. Therefore, there is lack of integrity at the outset……..”

    You do realize Citizens United did not invent corruptible politicians, right? A lack of integrity, as you say, is not new to our republic or any other culture for that matter; it’s part of human nature. There will always be those desiring to influence government for purposes outside its constitutional duty and those politicians willing to be influenced. Our job is to weed them out of contention for office and if that fails, remove them at the first opportunity. Instead, the electorate has failed to heed this warning provided 137 years before the Citizens United decision.

    “Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature … If the next centennial does not find us a great nation…it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces.” – James Garfield 1877

  131. Nick you ignored my comment before the quote. The quote is not from her but from a wells fargo investment guy. He is not MSNBC

  132. I saw it. There are many liberal Wall St. people. Hell, Corzine was elected Dem governor of NJ. I read all sources and business HATES Obamacare, as do the US public. If this election didn’t convince you, nothing will. I get it. As I said earlier, you like it, your friends like it, etc. I accept and stipulate to that. The Dems got whacked a week ago because the majority hate it.

  133. repeatedly been shown the election was more a showing of what gerrymandering does for a party then speaking for the electorate as a whole..

  134. You’re correct LeeJ. Without gerrymandering they never would’ve won the House in 2010. 2016 will prove to be interesting.

  135. Example of what electorate said:

    In Arkansas, voters raised the minimum wage while electing a senator who opposed it. Coloradans defeated an anti-woman “personhood” amendment but elected a man who once supported it.

    The repubs stoked fear of Ebola and a fictional immigrant invasion. They used the ISIS beheadings for an ad to try and portray pres as the cause (as opposed to keeping soldiers off the ground while getting 50 countries to sign on in the fight, a terrible thing, after all McCain, Graham et al want(ed) us to go it alone against ISIS)

    Typical and reminiscent of their Willie Horton ads against Dukakis.

  136. Elections have consequences. The uncovered story is there are 31-19 Rep to Dem guvs now, w/ similar state house numbers. It was a landslide, leej, no matter how you look @ it. As I said, this wasn’t approval of Rep, it was an absolute rejection of the Dem agenda, lawlessness and incompetence.

  137. LOL. I have seen alcoholics and addicts w/ less denial. As I’ve said, it is FASCINATING to see, absolutely fascinating.

  138. leejcaroll – Well Fargo Bank offers its employees a Cadillac health insurance policy. I do not know why they would be involved in Obamacare

  139. Nick, you can ignore the gerrymandering, you can deny the lies the repubs used but at the end of the day it was not we are FOR the repubs or against the Prez. It was geographical and I can well imagine in 2016 when a lot more seats are up in democratic districts you will be one of the first to complain they won because of gerrymandering

  140. There are testimonials from people who love their Medicare benefits, as well as less favorable comments from some less satisfied with the Medicare system.
    The original beneficiaries-e.g., someone born around 1900…lived Medicare. I think their monthly premiums were $3.00 per month, and the deductibles and copays were minimal.
    It’s worth noting that the c. 20 million original Medicare enrollees had paid $0 in lifetime payroll taxes. And the “tax bite” for the following generations was not that large-originally.
    Among the first wave in the Medicare Ponzi Scheme, there may well have been 3,000,000, 5,000,000, 7,000,000 in genuine need of this type of governmental assistance. But it was “an insurance program”, so virtually everyone was rolled into this massive new government program. The early “Bonanza recipients”, as well as future generations destined to pay into a system that promised old age insurance years hence.
    The “fee for service” characteristic of Medicare, and the insulation of enrollees from direct exposure to /interest in actual costs, was a very large contributing factor to exploding health care costs over the past 45-50 years. By the mid-1970s, I began to believe that these built-in tine bombs cause a massive train wreck down the road.
    The path of least resistance, at least from a political standpoint, was a “pass it on” scheme involving higher taxes, larger deductibles, copays, and premiums, and an increasing reliance in “general revenues” to make up the shortfall.
    I think roughly half of total Medicare costs are paid for from general revenues, so is fantasy to believe that the Medicare program is self-funding-or sustainable in its current form.
    At my age, and with the clout of “the senior lobby”, etc., I won’t face any particular financial “short-changing” from the program in its current form. Relative to my taxes paid in, I will likely get my money’s worth, and then some.
    It won’t be the “Bonanza” that the original generation got, nor the net payback (benefits relative to taxes paid) of my parents’ generation. But as a member if the “Third Wave” if baby boomers entering, or about to enter the Medicare plantation, I can not realistically expect the cost/benefit kinds of returns given to the early Ponzi Scheme participants.
    I think a few…a very few…politicians have seriously taken a hard look, and presented fairly specific proposals, for trying make Medicare a genuinely sustainable programs for future generations. Paul Ryan is one if those few, and ANY proposals to seriously alter of reform the program is politically risky, and will get demogogued to death.
    Whether it’s Paul Ryan’s program, or an alternative, realistic proposal that seriously deal with economic realities, they deserve serious consideration and debate.
    Or many, perhaps most, are content with the status quo. The status quo is essentially to perpetuate, and accelerate, any inter-generational screwing of future ‘beneficiaries” if Medicare.

  141. leejcaroll – did you take civics? Senators run at large. More Democratic seats are up next time but gerrymandering only would have something to do in the House which runs every 2 years.

  142. leejcaroll – Obamacare is not an investment opportunity, so why would an investment banker from Wells Fargo be concerned?

  143. Paul Schulte-I’m still stuck with this *##!* onscreen keyboard that does not allow me to proofread before posting. Please overlook the spelling errors “if” instead of “of”, etc.
    So to you, and others, my apologies/excuses for the sloppy presentation.

  144. So the MSNBC host thinks we misunderstood “nuanced” observations about the stupidity of American voters?

    Guess we know what MSNBC thinks about the intelligence of its viewers, as well . . .

  145. Excellent post Tom. Good analysis of the history of Medicare and the potential decline or survival of the program.

  146. It’s hard to take people seriously who suggest Medicare take over the entire population when it’s running out of money with the people it already serves.

    It definitely needs to be reformed, because people may not like it as much once 2030 hits, and they start receiving less benefits.

  147. Hmmm. So does this mean that Sarah Palin was right about Obamacare, and therefore SMARTER than all the Democrats and the liberalish talking heads??? Oh my, but I bet there is a run on psychiatrists about now.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  148. leejcaroll – Obamacare is not an investment opportunity, so why would an investment banker from Wells Fargo be concerned? Paul Large returns have been made by those that invested in hospitals and certain insurance companies since the onset of obamacare. People buy more insurance, take their prescription drugs and the hospitals get paid. duh

  149. An interesting takeaway from Mr. Gruber’s videos is his assertion that the people supporting the ACA, including those elected to office MORE THAN ONCE to pass it, are the idiots. All those that have been opposed to this law are not whom Mr. Gruber successfully targeted. How special is that?:)

  150. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, Feb. 14, 2013
    Contact: Mark Almberg, communications director, (312) 782-6006, mark@pnhp.org

    A national physicians group today hailed the reintroduction of a federal bill that would upgrade the Medicare program and swiftly expand it to cover the entire population.

    The “Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act,” H.R. 676, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., and 37 other House members, would replace today’s welter of private health insurance companies with a single, streamlined public agency that would pay all medical claims, much like Medicare works for seniors today.

    Proponents say the publicly financed plan would vastly simplify how the nation pays for care, improve patient health, restore free choice of physician, and yield substantial savings for individuals, families and businesses.

    “The evidence is clear: an improved-Medicare-for-all program is the most equitable and cost-effective way to assure that everyone, without exception, gets high-quality care,” said Dr. Andrew Coates, president of Physicians for a National Health Program, a nonprofit research and advocacy group of 18,000 doctors nationwide. “Nothing less will do the job.”

    “A single-payer program would assure truly universal coverage, cover all necessary services, and knock down the growing financial barriers to care – high premiums, co-pays, deductibles and coinsurance – that my patients are running up against, often with calamitous results,” he said.

    Coates, an Albany, N.Y.-based internist, continued: “Such a plan would save over $400 billion a year currently wasted on private-insurance-related bureaucracy, paperwork and marketing – money that should be used to care for patients. Such a program would also have the financial muscle to negotiate with drug and medical suppliers for lower prices, and would further save money through lump-sum budgeting for hospitals.

    “In short,” he said, “the enactment of Rep. Conyers’ bill would take us much further than the 2010 health law, which despite its modest benefits will not be able to control costs and which the Congressional Budget Office estimates will still leave 30 million people uninsured in 2023.

    “Surveys have repeatedly shown that about two-thirds of the public supports a Medicare-for-all approach,” Coates said. “And a recent survey of physicians shows that a solid majority now favor government legislation to create national health insurance.”

    “As a doctor who sees hard-pressed patients every day, I can tell you that the need for fundamental health care reform has never been greater,” he said. “It’s time to stop putting the interests of private insurance companies and Big Pharma over patient needs. It’s time to adopt a single-payer, improved-Medicare-for-all program in the United States.”


    Physicians for a National Health Program (www.pnhp.org) is a nonprofit research and educational organization of 18,000 physicians who advocate for single-payer national health insurance, an improved Medicare for all. To speak with a physician/spokesperson in your area, visit http://www.pnhp.org/stateactions or call (312) 782-6006.

  151. \Hmmm. So does this mean that Sarah Palin was right about Obamacare, and therefore SMARTER than all the Democrats and the liberalish talking heads??? Oh my, but I bet there is a run on psychiatrists about now.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter\
    S.Fromm (any rel to Erich Fromm?), I had never thought that the most intelligent president and administration in the history (according to MSNBC), will make people like Sarah Palin look much smarter than them…wow, incredible achievement.

  152. Regarding this bill. I have only a few minutes to look over it now before I have to attend to other matters but I already see some areas of concern. The revenue stream indicated in the act depends on some quite vague issues

    (c) FUNDING.—
    11 (1) IN GENERAL.—There are appropriated to
    12 the Medicare For All Trust Fund amounts sufficient
    13 to carry out this Act from the following sources:
    14 (A) Existing sources of Federal Govern15
    ment revenues for health care.
    16 (B) Increasing personal income taxes on
    17 the top 5 percent income earners.
    18 (C) Instituting a modest and progressive
    19 excise tax on payroll and self-employment in20
    21 (D) Instituting a modest tax on unearned
    22 income.
    23 (E) Instituting a small tax on stock and
    24 bond transactions.

    None of this is defined. Additionally, salaries for health care workers are left to arbitrary decisions by plan administrators that even does not include geographic locations of the providers. The board can then decide what compensation is to be provided under the cloak of negotiated fees which are not always reflective of a hospital’s payroll or other status.

    “small tax” and “increasing personal income taxes on the top 5 percent” is vague and can be damaging on more levels and other economic areas.

    While I appreciate simplicity, I would rather have details than nebulous promises.

  153. Squeeky,
    It’s fascinating that Gruber’s target audience will double-down with Single Payer and once again prove they deserve the moniker he gave them.

  154. Olly, the 18,000 members of Physicians for National Healthcare are probably better informed on this than MOST people including you.

  155. All it takes is a look @ this left wing physicians group website to see just how left they are. Click on their news releases. You see many appearances on Democracy Now and the Ed Show. This is a marginal group and not even worthy to be part of this discussion. Always evaluate the source and its conduit to the discussion. We have propagandists here and one must always remain vigilant. As Olly just pointed out, he counted on the cultists to be stupid, and they did not disappoint.

  156. As someone who lives in the Milwaukee television market, I can’t keep from hearing “one call, that’s all” whenever I read this guy’s name.

  157. Bailers, LOL! David Gruber the ambulance chaser, who does those TV commercials is certainly of the same ilk as this David Gruber.

  158. And this is where I’d post the video of Nancy Pelosi(D) saying…
    … Pass the bill, then we can read it.

    But I’m on the road and can’t google it right now…

    Maybe someone else can post it. If anyone wasn’t paying attention then, we’re at that point of review… In fact, much of this Administration’s lack of transparency is on trial.

    Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2014, hearing before the Human Rights Committee of the UN in Geneva. I hope a law blog somewhere covers the details this Administration is accused of…

  159. I don’t believe this bill referenced above will be a panacea for correcting what ails the health insurance industry. There are too many issues, lack of specific costs and financing, and the complete handover of the entire health care system to a managed bureaucracy held by regional offices sponsored by the federal government.

    There is no provision for cost control and makes statements that are too general to be applicable, such as the requirement that enrollment forms be limited to two pages. That is too constrained and is just one example of such.

    Rather than jump on the bandwagon and declare it to be great because it represents a single payer system I believe there are far too many marketing type of slogans and ideals designed to sell this as a plausible bill that can be hailed as a political solution but in reality it is too vague, to idealistic, and insufficiently descriptive of problems to be tacked.

    Rather than rely on Congress to craft the matter by legislation, it lends itself almost entirely to a fourth branch of government, the bureaucracy, that can have influences other than elected representatives to make agency rules that might not necessarily be adequate to address the needs of all stakeholders in health care.

  160. Darren, “the 18,000 members of Physicians for National Healthcare are probably better informed on this than MOST people including you.”

  161. Paul Schulte – No, my trip back to Az. had to be delayed a bit due to unforeseen circumstances, but I should be back by Thaksgiving.
    I’m in a rural area of eastern Washington, with no functioning laptop and a barely functioning Android.
    As the de facto “grammatical gatekeeper” of Prof. Turley’s website, I just wanted to explain some of my errors to you.
    Please do not dismiss this as some kind of typical ” my dog ate the homework” type of excuse; the dog merely slobbered on my homework.

  162. Amazing and stupefying to me

    == More than 50% of Americans entitled to vote think politicians intend to improve the world for the masses. ( there is not much evidence to support that belief )
    == More than 58% of Americans think they are in one of the best countries in the world. ( there is not much evidence to support that belief )
    == About 36% of eligible voters voted in November 2014 elections. ( They still believe that voting means anything and is a moral activity. Most people have wised up …. hopefully )
    == About 99% of all media beat the warrior drums this November 11th. This date was originally called Armistice Day and commemorated the beginning of the end of WWI. It was originally about peace. Now so many talking heads salute soldiers and sympathize for those who were suckered into losing their limbs , their minds and their lives during imperialistic skirmishes.
    == a majority of Americans think most problems can be solved with more police , more incarceration , more laws, more punishment.
    == a majority of Americans think there are significant differences between Republicans and Democrats. ( there is not much evidence to support that belief )
    == a majority of Americans think the bigger the US Gov gets, the better their lives will be. ( there is not much evidence to support that belief )
    == lots of people would rather argue about how many government regulations can dance on the head of a pin …….. than face reality and factual results of big government.
    == lots of people debate the merits of various politicians… as if there are significant variations.

  163. Annie – ask the members of Physicians for National Healthcare if they have office managers and bookkeepers for their practices. I am sure they are not running things on their own. And it would be interesting to see how many are in actual practice rather just joiners.

  164. Tom Nash – actually I took your comment as a warning and went to Best Buy and bought three stylus for $20. Think they will help. I have an Android as well.:) Saturday the Sun Devils are playing the Beavers in Corvallis 7:45 your time. Next week Wash St here. Of course we already demolished Udub.

  165. He is correct. Without the support of stupid voters, Obamacare never would have passed. Even today you will find stupid people defending it. Anything for a cause.

    “It is not truth that matters, but victory.”
    Adolf Hitler

    “How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think.”
    Adolf Hitler

    “A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce, or a tragedy, or perhaps both.”
    James Madison

    “The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes.” Thomas Paine

  166. Sarah Palin was right. Why dont you admit it instead of using the typical leftwing deflect defense. No honesty, no integrity at all.

  167. Darren Smith
    Thanks… I’ve been on the run today and by the time I even got to check out postings of JT’s, I saw there were 240+ posts to this thread and I had a few minutes on a break and just had to mention Ms. Pelosi’s statement about the level of transparency needed for the American public because, after all she supported Mr. Obama and believes in his transparency program to pull the wool over the American citizen’s eyes…

  168. anon,
    @ Obama on mandated ins.
    In my best Obama Wan Kenobi voice:
    “This is not the Obama you are looking for…”
    (wave hand, up-down motion, front of monitor)

  169. Max-1
    “Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2014, hearing before the Human Rights Committee of the UN in Geneva. I hope a law blog somewhere covers the details this Administration is accused of…”
    = = =
    The U.N. Puts America on the Hot Seat for Torture

    Full report:
    American Civil Liberties Union Shadow Report to the 3rd-5th Periodic Reports of the United States, Submitted to the 53rd Session of the UN Committee Against Torture

  170. anon, for people who ridiculed Sarah Palin all this time, it will trigger a nervous break down for them to admit that she was right and they were wrong. So, I would not expect them to admit that they were so wrong. It will be much easier for them to be contemptuous of foxnews (and ignore the reality), or the voters who voted in the midterms.

  171. I want to point out to all the leftists on here.

    When one of your leaders says that the Democratic party was counting on the stupidity of the American voters, they were NOT talking about the Republican voters because they knew that they would be opposed to Obamacare anyways.

    No, what they needed was the Democrat/Obama voters to shout down the opposition to Obamacare…..and that means YOU. You are the “stupid voters” they were counting on. You should be insulted but most of you will probably keep drinking the koolaid anyways.

    Oh and for the record righty, most of the Republican voters are stupid also. In fact most American voters period are uninformed idiots blindly voting by party.

  172. One reason why the American voters are stupid?
    I just went to CNN.com and put Grubers name in the search box after not seeing any articles on the front page about this story.
    Search turned up nothing about this story. Last article about him was in July.

    That is how American media operates today. Bury the truth especially the truth that is damaging to its partisan political side.

    “the press is our chief ideological weapon” – Nikita Krushchev

  173. Darren Smith @ 4:26
    “And the acceptance and advocacy of this notion by supporters of current and future administrations is one reason abuses will further continue.”
    = = =
    It’s what Lobbyists do best…
    “It’s never when my Team does it.”
    (plug nose and look forward)

  174. rafflaw talking ill of Palin and Fox news over this story? really?

    “Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.”
    George Santayana

  175. “It is a revenge the devil sometimes takes upon the virtuous, that he entraps them by the force of the very passion they have suppressed and think themselves superior to.”

    George Santayana

  176. Annie,
    In all seriousness, I’m all for a Universal coverage plan modeled on the medicare system managed like our current Social Security system (although it too, needs revisions). We all pay in throughout the year on paycheck deductions into a specified Health Care system/group that manages payouts based on deductions allowed by the health care provider. Anything not meeting deductions is considered out of pocket expense and yes, there would be upper limits. The provider is paid an annual salary that is managed through the same Health Care management system/Administration. Basically saying, health care providers would become sub-contractors of the Federal Government serving the Nation’s welfare and well being thus eliminating the need to ‘pad’ charges into the system as some practitioners have been caught doing. The same theory could be applied to home health care workers/family as they could be subsidised for their time and costs would be covered by the network plan (resulting in more quality of home health care and no need to ‘pad’ bills. Anyway, it’s just an idea…

  177. p.s.
    I purposefully left out the V.A. as an example to model a National Health Care system on. The passing of Thomas Young on Monday should remind us all the cost of war and the mistreatment he suffered at the hands of a militarized health care system that has been long mismanaged…

  178. anon, CNN did not have it probably because it is an old story It is as not as FOx etc have on their sites, “breaking news” because all they show is 53 seconds of the 1 1/2 hour interview, from 2013 and say nothing about it other then look what Gruber said.

  179. and anon, just posting “we need death panels” lets you present it as though that is what he is requesting, and as someone who was in the administration
    Let’s set the record straight. He even says in the second sentence:

    Well, maybe not death panels, exactly, but unless we start allocating health care resources more prudently — rationing, by its proper name — the exploding cost of Medicare will swamp the federal budget.

    But in the pantheon of toxic issues — the famous “third rails” of American politics — none stands taller than overtly acknowledging that elderly Americans are not entitled to every conceivable medical procedure or pharmaceutical.

    Most notably, President Obama’s estimable Affordable Care Act regrettably includes severe restrictions on any reduction in Medicare services or increase in fees to beneficiaries. In 2009, Sarah Palin’s rant about death panels even forced elimination from the bill of a provision to offer end-of-life consultations.

    he is talking about the medicare system which strangely some of the right on here had written needs to be revamped or gotten rid of because it may someday go broke. This article is about changing that and using resources more wisely.
    But hey sounds much better when you try to present it as An Obama official says we need death panels.
    This is exactly what I mean when I say the right (more then the left but both do it although even when I add that disclaimer Paul et al come out and asy oh there you go only saying repubs.) lie, distort, remove context.

  180. Annie, I think that drunken brawling incident might hurt Palin, but she said she might run for office anyway. She probably would get some support here… a good fit.

  181. This entire thread reminds me of the Geico commercial that “words really can hurt”. With all of Gruber’s brilliance, it’s the fundamental character flaw of progressive politics that did him in; EGO. Replace the words “THE END” in this clip with “HUMILITY” and you have the progressive left on horseback.:)


  182. oh wait its Fox news. Who cares if its actual video of gruber calling YOU stupid……again.
    It cant be true or worthy of watching since its on Fox.
    At this point you guys dont bury your head in the sand anymore. You bury it in your asses

  183. Gruber’s lying is completely consistent with this Ezra Klein “Netroots” speech – given just a few days before the 2008 presidential election in which Klein says his fellow comrades have to lie to impose the kind of healthcare system on society that he wants.

    I wish I could remember who said it to give proper credit, but someone once described Soviet era agitprop as “lying for the truth”. I understood that to mean that their vision of how society ought to be is “the truth” and so “lying for the truth” is how to achieve a society they consider to be “better”. Which of course is a version of “the ends justify the means” – another leftist tagline to say that whatever it takes to achieve the end game – including lying – is fine. Because they know what’s best for you and if you don’t agree then you must be lied to. It’s always wrapped up in phony expressions of compassion and benevolence when it’s really about using government force – rather than market forces – to decide how economic resources are allocated.

    With all this Democrat lying to achieve communist-like, redistributionist social goals, we are rapidly approaching a place in our history where we need our version of an Alexander Solzhenitsyn to step up. He’d lived under Soviet lies his entire life. One of his last great essays was a plea to his countrymen to “Live Not By Lies”.


  184. Sooo, the rafflaws and the Annies ignore the fact that Sarah Palin got it right, and that they were part of the “stupid Americans” who continue to vote for Democrats. And what reasoned argument do they make to that charge??? Oh, they just double down on the ad hominem name-calling stuff. Why am I not surprised.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  185. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2014/11/12/mika-admits-if-gruber-were-republican-msm-would-be-exploding#sthash.RnN9Qkug.dpuf

    Kudos to Mika Brzezinski for admitting the truth: if Jonathan Gruber were a Republican, the MSM “would be exploding.” Instead, noted Mika on today’s Morning Joe, the MSM has been silent on the Gruber story, with only conservative sites [ed.: notably including Newsbusters] covering it.

    Mika contrasted the current quietness on the MSM-Gruber front with the media “firestorm” that erupted when David Stockman made his infamous allegations about Reagonomics.

  186. Darren Smith – “Jim, I understand your feelings on this, yet to do nothing is a worse course of action. Inertia can take time to increase. This is why we need to keep up the struggle. One matters reach a tipping point often change manifests. Yet if nothing is done then issues stagnate and resuscitating their vigor requires much more effort.”

    Here I am commenting on a legal/lawyer site and if you look at the responses to the topic, it appears non of it centers about what real actions can/will take place for a corrupt govt. not only lying to its lemmings but flat out throwing it in our face knowing that nothing will happen. When an a-whole like Lois Lerner is still breathing the same free air that we are, you know that this whole thing is a joke.

  187. “Obama is the President Nixon wanted to be.”

    “You lie!” Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C.

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

    Evil is triumphant.

    Good men are doing absolutely nothing.

  188. issac: “criminally under false pretenses invaded and destroyed Iraq”

    Hm. I’ve disposed of this canard several times already on Professor Turley’s blog, but it keeps growing back under different names under disparate topics.

    Excerpt from my explanation of the law and policy basis of Operation Freedom at http://learning-curve.blogspot.com/2014/05/operation-iraqi-freedom-faq.html:

    Bush cited properly to Iraq’s noncompliance with the [Gulf War ceasefire] UNSC resolutions as Clinton had done for [Operation Desert Fox]. But in a departure from Clinton’s public presentation, Bush also cited the pre-war intelligence, despite that the intelligence could not trigger enforcement. Propagandists pounced on Bush’s error of presentation to shift the burden of proof from Iraq proving compliance with the UNSC resolutions to the US proving Iraqi possession matched the pre-war intelligence estimates. However, the mistake does not change that Iraqi possession was established in the factual baseline of the Gulf War ceasefire as the foundational premise of the disarmament process. The only legal and reliable way to know Saddam had disarmed was Iraq proving compliance with the standard mandated by the UNSC resolutions enforced under US law. Saddam’s noncompliance – including Iraq’s basic failure to declare and destroy all its as-of-Gulf-War WMD under international supervision – was confirmed by UNMOVIC with the Cluster Document, which imputed the continued possession of proscribed weapons by Iraq, whereupon Bush properly applied the operative enforcement procedure at the decision point for [Operation Iraqi Freedom].

  189. Add: To tie in correcting issac’s canard about Operation Iraqi Freedom with Professor Turley’s OP about dishonest governance by the Obama administration, President Obama was elected President in the first place in 2008 largely due to Democrats lying to the American people about the Gulf War ceasefire enforcement. It stands to reason the Democrats would have maintained a proven political strategy from election to governance.

  190. @ Anon and @Dust Bunny Queen.
    -Anon, thanks for the links you posted, especially the Steven Rattner/Death Panels link. You are probably aware of the British policy of .”quietly putting 60,000 elder patients on “Death’s Pathway”, without informing them or their families. “Sped things up” for patients ,near the end of their lives in most cases, as a money -saving measure. There are indications that we are heading down that same slippery slope, and I think that a government-run, single payer system would increase the odds of death panels, and passive ( and maybe not-so -passive) euthanasia.
    While it’s fashionable for many to scoff at the notion if death panels, I have seen too many indicators that tell me that death panels are a real possibilty.
    @Dust Bunny Queen -I was finally able to play the videos of Jonathan Gruber, and I reread some of the articles. You are, of course, correct in stating that Gruber was not expressing any regrets at misleading/underhanded ploys used to push through Obamacare. He’s bragging about the duplicity.

  191. Anon, I know you want to ignore reality to make your points but as I stated upthread when this first came o ut in 2013, when it was in fact timely news, I saw articles on MSM about it.
    I am saddened and sickened by the name calling that I see here as the replies. Lack of thought and true debate, instead if I call names then I must be right,. Sad.
    End of this thread for me.

  192. LJC,
    Did the 2013 reporting alter your support for an administration and party that relies on your stupidity to further their agenda? I ask simply because the reality of Gruber ‘ s statements STILL fail to make any difference with the progressive left.

  193. LJC expects debate when all the Progressives are doing is bashing Fox or Palin or non leftist sources and deflecting from the actual issue which is typical of their tactics.

    So I ask you LJC, how do you dare demand ‘thought and debate’ when you will not even be honest with yourself? THAT is what is sad.

    You know what I am sick of LJC? The hypocrisy of the left. It makes me want to puke.

  194. Rafflaw I disagree with your Michael Moorelike comparison of the ACA to the Heritage Foundation model of the Republicans The ACA substantially tightens regulations on the health-care industry and requires that plans provide medical service while limiting out-of-pocket expenses. The Heritage Plan mandated only catastrophic plans that wouldn’t cover basic medical treatment and would still entail huge expenditures for people afflicted by a medical emergency. The Affordable Care Act contained a historic expansion of Medicaid that will extend medical coverage to millions (and would have covered much more were it not for the Supreme Court), while the Heritage Plan would have diminished the federal role in Medicaid. The ACA preserves Medicare; the Heritage Plan, like the Paul Ryan plan favored by House Republicans, would have destroyed Medicare by replacing it with a voucher system. encouraged

    Furthermore – this is another subject – the disintegration of rational thought on this thread is troubling as the posters can do better imo. Just my opinion.

  195. Rational thought? How about original thought Happypappies? Regurgitating debate comments from other sites without citation wouldn’t qualify for either. Pretty pathetic and frankly, Grubered.

  196. Olly – It’s soo nice to have a critic like you. Especially when my computer shuts down in the middle of a scan. Thank you for noticing that I did not, for once, post the link I got my comment from. Good thing I did not digest my cookies yet so now I can post it for everyone and they can know why
    That’s okay, I don’t take it personal. And you know why? 1. I always learn from my mistakes, 2, I don’t have a giant Narcissistic ego 3. My thoughts are far from rational many times and I have to struggle to “bring them together” which is why you thought I was trying to plagiarize that article 4. Everyone’s mind is original to start out with until it gets brainwashed.

    Anyway, are we done yet? It’s gerber btw, and. I have a sneaking suspicion by watching your comments that we really aren’t that far apart but that I just get on your nerves or something. idk. I could care less if you want to pick me apart have at it.:)

  197. The only thing Obamacare did was make the insurance companies, Big Pharma and Wall Street richer.

    People who did not have insurance before signed up and then discovered they still do not have insurance because their deductibles put them into bankruptcy.

    Only the truly gullible believe that Obama had any sort of good intentions with this.

  198. How about the libertarian idea of letting the insurance companies do insurance?

    Healthcare companies doing healthcare. Law offices doing law. Marriage left to churches with no government involvement. No tax difference for marital status. No deduction for charitable giving.

    I looked for a doctor upon moving to a new city. I consulted a variety of doctor rating websites and found the highest rated physicians in town. None of the top 9 accepted new Medicare patients. I found a practice with highly rated doctors that had a new graduate that would accept Medicare. It was quite a search to find a competent and highly patient recommended physician in a state capital city, but it can be done.

  199. He also stated that John Kerry, the current Secretary of State, was part of this deception. Wonder what that does for his credibility with foreign leaders. if he’d lie to his own citizens, wonder what he is pulling over on us! Wow! All he said is true! The absence of traditional underwriting has the young mostly paying alot more to pay for the unhealthy and older insured. The so called “cadillac” plans are what many if not most Americans had…modest deductible, moderate copay PPO plans which are now taxed 40% so are unaffordable! And the one size fits all instead of the previous cafeteria plans (ie. maternity, etc. riders) has raised overall costs considerably and means a single man or woman in his 60s with no intent of having children is paying for others’ maternity benefits. The longterm intent is to create dissatisfaction due to high cost and lousy coverage so that we will all cry/demand nationalized healthcare. And if you think that’s good, ask the families of the dead VA patients who never got care how they like government healthcare. I once worked in the field but quit after 3 episodes with cancer and have been shocked at the lies told to get this albatross legislation passed. So Gruber’s repeated bragging about how “stupid” Americans are misses the point that the need for he and administration to lie indicates they feared how smart we really are since they had to lie to get this crappy, criminally bad law passed. Oh and by the way, I am cancerfree 3+ years today BECAUSE of our best in the world due to choice healthcare system. Had I lived in any other country with nationalized healthcare I woukd currently be dead…the cyberknife was available to me BECAUSE I live in the US. We have 1 cyberknife machine for every 1.1 million people vs on average 1 machine for every 16 million in the UK, Canada, Germany, France, Holland, etc. i would either have been denied access or been out on a 3 year waiting list. Not here in the USA!

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