I have long argued in my column as well as numerous blog postings that our country is legally bound to prosecute people responsible for ordering torture during the Bush Administration. There is no question that water boarding is torture as recognized by President Obama, Attorney General Holder, the United Nations and virtually every expert in this field. However, while you may want to try to rewrite legal precedent (as did John Yoo and Jay Bybee in their infamous Torture Memos), you should not try to rewrite history. That is what former Vice President Dick Cheney appears to be doing this month. He told Chuck Todd on Sunday that we never prosecuted anyone for water boarding — an assertion that I and others have repeatedly raised over the years. The statement is simply false and adds historical revisionism to legal revisionism in our sordid foray into torture.
On NBC’s “Meet the Press” this last Sunday, Todd asked: “When you say waterboarding is not torture then why did we prosecute Japanese soldiers?”
Cheney responded:
“Not for waterboarding. They did an awful lot of other stuff. To draw some kind of moral equivalent between waterboarding judged by our Justice Department not to be torture and what the Japanese did with the Bataan Death March, with slaughter of thousands of Americans, with the rape of Nanking and all of the other crimes they committed, that’s an outrage. It’s a really cheap shot, Chuck, to even try to draw a parallel between the Japanese who were prosecuted for war crimes after World War II and what we did with waterboarding three individuals — all of whom are guilty and participated in the 9/11 attacks.”
In fact, we did prosecute. Indeed, the International Military Tribunal for the Far East convicted and ultimately executed Japanese war criminals Akira Muto and Iwane Matsui for atrocities at Nanking. This included water boarding prisoner, though it was called “the water treatment” where “the victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness.”
Moreover, in 1947, we prosecuted Yukio Asano for the following these specific acts:
Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him, by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O. Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War, by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him, and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.
Asanao was sentenced to 15 years confinement at hard labor.
As noted by the Washington Post, First Lt. Seitara Hata, Sgt. Major Takeo Kita and Sgt. Hideji Nakamura faced similar charges. As noted by the Post, the testimony included that of Cpt. William Arno Bluehe who said “After beating me for a while they would lash me to a stretcher, then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness. When I revived they would repeat the beatings and ‘water cure’ . . . . The tortures and beatings continued for about six hours.”
Then there was Thomas B. Armitage:
“[We] were strapped to stretchers and warm water poured down our nostrils until we were about ready to pass out. [The Japanese] strapped him to a stretcher and elevated his feet and then poured on his face so that it was almost impossible for him to get his breath. [The victim] was then taken into the corridor, strapped to a stretcher, which was tilted so that his head was toward the floor and feet resting on a nearby sink.Water was then poured down his nose and mouth for about twenty minutes. Then I was taken into the hallway of the barracks. Both of the Japanese still insisting I was guilty and urging me to confess.”
Likewise, during the Vietnam War, an American soldier was court-martialed for water boarding a prisoner.
Ironically, while the Senate Report works hard to exonerate the Senators themselves from their past knowledge as well as Bush and Cheney, Cheney to his credit has admitted that both he and Bush were fully informed of the use of program.
The cost of our torture program — and the failure to prosecute a single official for it (or the destruction of evidence and false statements revealed in its aftermath) will continue to cost this country dearly. Countries like Iran, North Korea, and China have already cited our use of water boarding to defend against their own abuses. When our soldiers or citizens are water boarded in the future, countries will play back Cheney’s words and others to say that such abuse is not torture. When we demand that officials in other countries be prosecuted for torture, they will mock our hypocrisy and own history. As much as history may be an inconvenient contradiction for people like Cheney, it will remain unrevised and unvarnished. We have prosecuted both Americans and foreigners for water boarding and we were right to do so. That is not the history that we should work to forget.
Regarding Clinton on Monica: Whether he “was on” or “in”, that is not porking and if ya say so I will fine you ten. Or so sayeth one of the priests at the monastery who was accused of being a pedophile.
Paul: your explanation would have fallen on deaf American, Russian, British, ears at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII. Mistreatment, not torture, would have gotten a defendant some time in jail but not the death penalty. I am glad that the Americans have worked the defenses up so that they can be articulated cleverly when the day of judgment arrives. Coming to a theatre near you–unless the theatre is controlled by Sony.
BarkinDog – one of the Supreme Court justices at the time of the Nuremberg Trials said that the judgments would not have been upheld by the SC had they been appealed there. The Nuremberg Trials were ‘winner’s justice’ not real justice. People were hung for ex post facto war crimes.
Side note,
Tulsa County, Oklahoma,
Fred Jordan, ran for Tulsa County DA, 2014.
I knew Fred’s Grand dad & his uncles, I liked them.
Fred Jordan implemented the plan of the Terrorist/American Hatin pieces of Trash John Yoo’s Tortured/Bush/Cheney Memo at Getmo Cuba.
I called every one I knew here & I went and voted against the fool!
Thank God he Lost! And he’s of Native American blood that in the past were Tortured!!!!!
He’s a man that has completely lost his way on this planet and forgotten his people, I’m sad to say.
Don’t lose you’re way, stay on the path!
G’nite
“The resulting Special Review ofCounterterrorism Detention and Interrogation Activities (“Special Review”) found that there were no guidelines for the use of the CIA’s enhanced interrogation techniques at DETENTION SITE COBALT prior to December 2002, and that interrogators, some with little or no training, were “left to their own devices in working with detainees.”
Rather than limiting culpability to a loose cannon, doesn’t this raise the issue command authority all the way to the top?
Ross, An FBI agent reported people wanting to learn how to fly, nothing else. There is no proof any of that info was investigated. Certainly not the White House.
It’s late, I’m tired again & wrapping the day up, but I’ve plenty of time to give these Traitors to the USA, Dick Cheney, John Yoo, the Bush & Clinton families a fair Trial and the reasoned response to Hang the Aholes from the ole Oak tree at the court house in Lamar Missouri or the Scaffolds in Fort Smith Arkansas, but that’s just my reasoned opinion, you may disagree with me.
“On November!, 2002, [CIA OFFICER 1] ordered that
Gul Rahman be shackled to the wall of his cell in a position that required the detainee to rest on the bare concrete floor. Rahman was wearing only a sweatshirt, as [CIA OFFICER 1] had ordered that Rahman’s clothing be removed when he had been judged to be uncooperative
during an earlier interrogation. The nextday, the guards found Gul Rahman’s dead body. An internal CIA review and autopsy assessed that Rahman likely died from hypothermia—in part from having been forced to siton the bare concrete floor without pants.^^^ [CIAOFFICER I’s] initial cable to CIA Headquarters on Rahman’s death included a number of
misstatements and omissions that were not discovered until internal investigations into Rahman’s death.^^^”
I suppose there are some who will consider this kind of information controversial because the researcher and author are likely registered democrats.
But some of us might wonder if this kind of treatment is likely to produce useful, actionable information.
Is there any indication, any at all, that techniques based on what our adversaries have done in previous wars to produce false confessions will produce reliable, accurate, timely information?
bfm – leaving a half-naked prisoner on a concrete floor falls under mistreatment, not torture. You will notice that the report is unsure of what the cause of death is, but rather speculates on a cause. As a speculation, it is not far off, depending on the ambient air temperature in the cell.
Having worked in the penal system for a short time, I am aware of methods used to punish prisoners who are uncooperative. This was a punishment for uncooperation.
Inga, the minute I read your first note I skipped everything else because you needed quick truth! If you had listened to Dr. Mitchell you may have learned a few things. KSM was water boarded in one session three times. 2 for ten seconds and one for forty seconds. He simply held his breath and counted the seconds on his fingers. At that point his water boarding was discontinued because it produced no results. I don’t have the details of the other two people, though one did talk.
We elect people to incredibly difficult positions. No one is perfect. Clinton was offered bin Laden on a silver platter and did nothing. Our President was faced with a “Pearl Harbor” situation and reacted and acted quickly, without questioning protecting himself, which our current Pres would never do.
The American people would not stand for prosecution of anyone. They did what was necessary and recommended by experts. Also agreed to by many other countries.
Dr. Mitchell initially refused the job for the same reason we all do. He just couldn’t do these things. And then he thought of Flight 93, where Americans didn’t question themselves about stopping their plane from crashing into another building and killing more people. They knew they would die, but did their job, stopping the hijackers.
I can’t imagine any American who loves this country to welcome punishment for anyone in our response. I feel sorry for you and Professor Turley when you can’t understand their decisions were made to do the best in protecting our country. And did a damned fine job.
And for the person who implied beheading wasn’t all that bad, I wish you could see the videos of children screaming in pain while someone was sawing through their necks. But you can envision it. I don’t understand without any compassion, you criticize men who acted in the best interests of this country and saved lives. If that’s what it means to be a lawyer, I’m glad I never pursued the law!
“KSM was water boarded in one session three times. 2 for ten seconds and one for forty seconds. He simply held his breath and counted the seconds on his fingers. At that point his water boarding was discontinued because it produced no results. I don’t have the details of the other two people, though one did talk.”
There seems to be information that through 5 sessions KSM had water applied to his face 183 times.
Anybody have any information about that or other techniques applied during his captivity. Was he kept awake in a standing position for days at a time?
Apparently it only took years, more than 4 years, to break him so that he confessed.
Just imagine how important it would have been to torture him if there were a bomb set to go off.
These techniques may take years to produce information that we already have. We may have satellites, electronic intercepts, the best forensics, and spys to infiltrate most any organization.
But by god we will prove we can use the same ineffective, brutal techniques they use. And when we use them we will used them for years to get nothing we did not already know before.
That ought to scare them.
Hypothetically, let’s say a terrorist says a nuclear bomb was going to hit the US within 12 hours. And he won’t say anything more. Would you be willing to water board him for 10 seconds at a time, with medical staff there to ensure he didn’t experience permanent harm? Would you be more willing to do such a thing if millions of lives were at stake? If so, would you reserve such an extreme method for such a life and death scenario? Or would it be abhorrent under any circumstances, and you would just sit home and wonder if it would be your house, and your family?
There is nothing wrong with discussion where we draw the line.
Olly:
Great post.
“That has been my point in the various torture threads. Everyone here would do exactly the same thing, yet they want to portray themselves above that sort of thing.”
At least I admit I’m conflicted. I also think the lengths we go to should be commensurate with the level of threat. And we need transparency.
Myr:
“Being “against torture theoretically” means you’re against it when it happens to Americans, but for it when we’re the torturers.”
Not at all. What I actually said is that intellectually, I am against torture, and yet I acknowledge that I would go pretty far if the life of my child was at stake. Do you think it matters what nationality the person would be?
I will say one thing, hesitant as I am to comment on the subject per se…water boarding is a minimal intrusion to many people…just ask any of my Muslim refugee neighbors about that matter. They can give you a detailed explanation of what “torture” is …based upon lost children and relatives at the hands of the enemy among their own group …where torture” is the order of the day…. Brutal are the actions of the resistance in Pakistan to day…130+ children killed, for what? Terror is what. They distinct intention to instill fear. No escape is the rule…expect when those who will step up, do so. I’m no hero in that effort, but I can say I’ve no real enemies in my neighborhood. Small victories matter, IMO… and we will carry on. Next, I’m concerned about my Hispanic acquaintances. Most are closed mouthed, and who can blame them? I plan to ask a few I know directly just what is their agenda. These are people who make the ghetto seem mild. I will listen.
I do not know the solution for undocumented aliens… but I hope we will find one. As for Mr Cheney today, why is he still a news item? Answer me that and we’ll figure out what we can do next, not what was done yesterday. Once Cheney vanishes in to the ether vapors, we can talk about now.
” hesitant as I am to comment on the subject per se…water boarding is a minimal intrusion to many people…just ask any of my Muslim refugee neighbors about that matter. They can give you a detailed explanation of what “torture” is …based upon lost children and relatives at the hands of the enemy among their own group …where torture” is the order of the day….t.”
As I understand the comment, torture is so terrible we need it here.
There might be an argument along along those lines if we had evidence that torture is more effective than other methods we have to produce information.
But evidence for the efficacy of torture seems thin at best and perhaps based on well known bureaucratic considerations to protect turf and programs.
Don’t be shy. Don’t hesitate. If your years of government service and consulting have lead you to any information regarding torture, or rendition for the purpose of torture, other methods to present detainees for torture, or hard data regarding the efficacy of torture, please tell us.
I am sure many here would be very interested in your personal experience.
@Aridog ~ You said it! I agree. I hate when people try to pick a fight over a comment. It’s just an opinion. Sometimes I get disgusted but I just love Prof. Turley’s thoughts on all issues, even if I don’t agree with him. Have a good night Aridog.
Dang… I feel the need to again notify all that Professor Turley’s opinions are based upon principle first, and law second. He may disagree and say they are the same. He does manage to join them none-the-less….a talent I only wish I had myself. His divergence from contemporary opinion is why I still visit here. Same for rafflaw and Darren, and others who post comments, and likely for the other voluntary editors who I have missed because I am a new guy here. My respect for Professor Turley is not based upon agreement…it is based upon honest discourse. Let’s celebrate that…or maybe I’m just a dork with a motive 🙂
“. I find all of these articles on water-boarding fake in their nature and the author is always indignant of the act and give details that cannot be verified….
Below is his current registration for the Democratic party:”
As I read the comment, we should not believe torture occurred because the commenter finds such articles unbelievable and the author of the cited article is a democrat.
http://youtu.be/x8nY7Ntd_O8
Professor Turley speaking about Bush lawyers and that they attempted to redefine our rule of law. A real golden oldie from 2006. JT begins speaking at the 1:00 mark.
@Paul C. Schulte
“Bill McWilliams – there were several ways the Vietnam War could have been stopped before it started. Same with WWII. You really do not have a sense of history, do you?”
LOL . . .
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2168646912/h4E9CD6F4/
Paul C Schulte…the whole idea of “rendition” is to avoid blame and permit lying..
You can then say “I did not stimulate KSA’s testicles with battery leads”…and be telling the “truth”…e.g., you did not personally do or have it done on your territory. You merely rendered to those you told not to do those things, pinky finger promise…”innocence” is achieved.
DC logic is never less than completely confounding. In some perverse way..I actually miss it…nothing gave me greater pleasure than revealing some dip wad for the liar they were…one egregious case was some senior folks who modified cost figures I prepared honestly…they spent nearly 2 years trying to find out who ratted them out (and stopped their tom-foolery in it s tracks). Every minute of all that was pleasurable … but then I am a bit weird like that. Lie to me and I no longer trust you…lie to senior others with changes to my calculations, assert it to me, and I want you stomped on…or abused otherwise. I really think that is a fair and balanced approach 🙂
In the instance above, I had three confidants who knew the who, what, & why of it all…beyond the efforts of a very senior Democratic Congressman who made it stop, and kept my confidence. I’ve mentioned him before…it was Rep John Conyers…a man who talks the black narrative, but represents his constituents none the less…and with vigor. One of the bright confidants was/is a very bright black female executive, who was blamed for the whistle blowing , but by rumor only, because of her very well known resistance to nonsense. I still keep in touch with her…she taught me more in my later career than I ever paid back. That lady can do no wrong in my purview.
Karen S – “This whole thing smells like a political stunt to get people to forget why the Dems lost so badly at the polls.”
Or a pay back, for why they lost. Obama gave them literally 11 days to come up with an amnesty plan or he’ll do his own. He supposedly did an executive order but when our governor elect went to file the lawsuit, he couldn’t find where the Executive order was actually signed. What kind of stunt is he pulling now?
Think about all the BS Obama will do after the new Congress takes the reins. I feel like he’s wanting them to impeach him but he knows it’s political suicide and that’s why he keeps pushing the envelope further to the edge of the table.
I also think it was timing because Jonathan Gruber was testifying and notice how that has dropped off the radar since this intelligence report has been released.
“Only a radical change – throwing out right-wing Senators and Congressmen, and replacing them with leaders who are beholden to all of the PEOPLE in our country, and not just the 1 % and their no-nothing cheerleaders like some here on this site. ”
The statement above that was made to you me laugh. What the heck have we been through the past 6 years. Democrats had all three branches of gov’t at one point and only passed the ACA and now that will most likely be ruled unconstitutional. Obama wants to penalize Israel an make buddies with Castro. Trades 5 terrorists for a military deserter. Oh yeah, the “left wingers” are a death certificate to democracy. SMH January 2015 and November 2016 can’t get here fast enough.
Myr – “Jim22, they’re also using our torture as a recruitment tool. Very effective.”
Do you really believe that they hated us only after water boarding? How much of that did we do before 9/11? They hating us has very little to do with our interrogation techniques.
Jim22 – they are probably using Dumb and Dumber as a recruitment tool. 😉
I bet Kim Jong-il thought the guy who played him was too short.
Myr said…
Most of our fellow Americans are cowards.
Speak for yourself.