State Department Confirms That Over Two Dozen Emails On Clinton Server Are Now Considered Classified

225px-Hillary_Clinton_official_Secretary_of_State_portrait_cropWe have previously discussed the series of scandals in Washington where powerful individuals have been spared serious sanctions for acts where ordinary people have faced long and unrelenting prosecution. (here) It is part of America’s Animal Farm system where some individuals are more equal than others. That concern is even greater this week with the combination of the disclosure that Hillary Clinton did use a personal email system for classified communications and most media outlets appear to be ignoring the obvious import of that fact.

From the outset of this scandal, I have noted that the suggestion that such a system could be used without risking the release of classified information is facially absurd. I have had a TS/SCI clearance since Reagan due to my national security work and have lived under the restrictions imposed on email and other systems. The system is so stringent that just last month I had to personally deliver a routine motion in a national security case that was clearly unclassified because there was a concern about sending it by email for a review of the security officer. It dealt with changing a scheduling date. Violations of such rules are treated harshly and can easily result in criminal prosecution.

For the Secretary of State, a great percentage of material passing through her office is treated as presumptively classified. The idea of using a personal email system for such a high official in such a highly classified office is otherworldly. Moreover, few people buy the argument that this was not done to control information but to avoid carrying multiple phones, as suggested by Clinton. This would seem one area where the Clintons (often criticized for making their own rules) would seem bound to follow security protocols. Clinton insisted that no material was classified and that this was not an effort on her part to insulate her communications from outside review.

Now the State Department has marked at least a couple dozen emails as classified. We will likely never know how many of the thousands of deleted emails were classified and possibly subject to foreign surveillance. A State Department official has admitted that 25 emails were deemed classified. This would seem to contradict Clinton’s assurance to the public that she “did not email any classified material to anyone” on her personal account and “There is no classified material. So I’m certainly well aware of the classification requirements and did not send classified material.”

The best defense is that this material was not technically classified at the time that it was sent. Thus it was not “classified” information. The problem is that it was not reviewed and classified because it was kept out of the State Department system. Moreover, most high-level communications are treated as classified and only individually marked as classified when there is a request for disclosure. For example, there is not a person standing next to the President with a classification stamp in the Oval Office. However, those communications are deemed as presumptively classified and are not disclosed absent review. Under the same logic, the President could use a personal email system because his text messages by definition are not marked as classified. This is the whole reason that Clinton and others were told to use the protected email system run by the State Department. We have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to secure such systems.

The State Department appears intent to avoid a conflict with Clinton over this circumvention of their secure system. Indeed, there appears to be a general and concerted effort to avoid the obvious in this scandal: clearly some of this material was classified and Clinton intentionally used a system to be under her control and not the government. I view that as quite serious — as I do the relative avoidance of the implications by many in the media. At best this shows appalling judgment while at worse it shows a knowing risk or exposure of presumptively classified material to foreign interception. The public can judge for itself if Clinton is being truthful in saying that she never sought to create a system that would be under her control and simply did not want to carry two phones or devices. That is a political question. The active circumvention of a secure system and possible exposure of classified information is a legal question . . . and a rather important one.

177 thoughts on “State Department Confirms That Over Two Dozen Emails On Clinton Server Are Now Considered Classified

  1. We can get those emails from the Russians or Chinese because you KNOW they have them all. By the time election day rolls around, only the truly committed Hillary lemmings will vote for her. Normal people see she is bad and don’t want that Clinton drama again.

  2. There is no evidence that any emails were hacked or that her server was insecure. If State wanted her to use their server, they could and should have so directed but did not. Get over it.

  3. “We can get those emails from the Russians or Chinese because you KNOW they have them all”

    Anyone have the form to file a FOIA@Russia request?

    I am just curious to see what she threw away – not that those emails are important because we know they were not State Department emails and we know they were not classified – right?

  4. Mrs. Clinton does not lie, nor would she ever contradict herself. I am voting for Hillary because she is a woman. I want the press to keep refusing to ask her any questions about this matter. In fact, I love the propaganda that is being given to me about her. It is just so heartwarming!

    This is Grandma Clinton. You wouldn’t accuse your grandmother of doing anything wrong! And you wouldn’t bring up embarrassing issues with her either!!!

  5. “There is no evidence that any emails were hacked or that her server was insecure.”

    The fact that we have no evidence at this time does not imply reasonable belief that her home servers were secure.

    Does anyone believe her servers had protection remotely like security of major government agencies such as OPM. We don’t know for sure. But why would anyone assume that hardware and software security matched a major government agency. Why would anyone assume that the individuals who implemented and maintained her systems had anything like the background, training or experience of the computer specialist at major government agencies.

    I flatly do not believe her systems met anything remotely close to the standards in force at major government agencies. Yet we know for a fact that many major agencies have been penetrated with relative ease.

    This deserves to be a major issue. She sacrificed security for her personal convenience related to – at most – embarrassing headlines. It ought to be front and center as an example of her judgement. It is a big deal – so get over it.

  6. Jill, what do you think about Bernie Sanders? He had a rally in Madison with 10,000 people attending. I think we are going to continue to see him surge.

  7. We have the Clintonista’s w/ “there’s no evidence” meme. Get used to it folks. If you don’t think that server in Chappaqua NY was hacked? A server created by a woman who had never emailed until recently. A woman who according to her people can’t type. A woman who couldn’t figure out a freakin’ Fax machine. Well then you must be a Clintonista.

  8. Yes, we can just ignore. After eight years of, questionable outside the constitution events which have occurred, can you imagine her coming in with a license do what she wants. Her track record speaks for itself.

  9. Government communications should be public information. Personal communications deserve privacy. Not the other way around.

  10. “There is no evidence that any emails were hacked or that her server was insecure. If State wanted her to use their server, they could and should have so directed but did not. Get over it.”

    ~~ The state department and all government employees sign a non-disclose agreement when you become gainfully employed. I also had top security clearance with our government and took the same oath as the POTUS, when I worked for the government. It’s a very extensive background and one that’s conducted every ten years. Mrs. Clinton signed one of these agreements, which included electronic correspondence. She should be prosecuted, because everyone else who breaks them is. It’s a federal crime.
    “Get over it” isn’t exactly the sentiment that should be used when breaking a federal law. Is this what your ex-wife said to you when she had that love affair with her boss and left you high and dry?

  11. I’d bet her personal system was more secure than the U.S. Government’s. After all, the Clintons can afford the best. And she obviously wanted to keep her communications private from not only Chinese and Russian hackers, but from her own government. She is a control freak (with some good reason, given how the Clintons were treated in the past).
    I’m not condoning what she did, but you cannot assume her home server was anything but top-tier. Otherwise, what was the point?

  12. Are the 24 Hillary classified emails business deals with Russia and China? Or run of the mill gift of gab?

  13. The poor, poor Clintons. Always the victims forced to go to the ethical and legal edge in order to best serve us proles without a thought of their own well being. We are so fortunate to have them.

  14. So, the emails are there to be scrutinized by the proper authorities. If she made a mistake it is no different than ANY politician’s mistakes, except of course the little cowboy and his handlers who slaughtered hundreds, and hundreds of innocents with their ‘faux pas’ called Iraq. If you want to smear someone, smear them. Find something important. Getting a hummer from a clerk and sending emails is next to absolutely nothing in this circus called politics and government.

    Release the Donald.
    Release the Walker.
    Release the Cruz.
    Release the Rubio.
    Release the Jindal.
    Release the Christies.
    Take Sunday off and start again on Monday.

    Clinton is the best choice for President. She is the least of all potential catastrophes. The programs started by Obama need to be continued, refined, and taken to fruition. Or, would you rather go backwards? Grab your flintlock and go to Kentuckeee.

  15. I don’t know if ” the State Dept. ” specifically advised Hillary not to use her personal server and email account for official State Dept business.
    The “defense” that State didn”t tell her not use her own email service assumes that their was a higher-ranking official ( than the SEC/ of State Clinton) to inform her of established State Dept. Regulations procedures.
    Of course, as the highest-ranking official in State, Hillary could not be expected to know this.
    Even IF one buys these excuses, it’s like absolving a Defense Dept. Official of any blame if the official compromised classified material by leaving his laptop at a Starbucks. “Gee, I was never told not to leave classified material at Starbucks” is a poor excuse.
    So, as advised above, nothing to see here, ” get over it” . Same advice goes for Whitewater/Rose Law firm, Travel gate, Filegate, Arab Spring fiasco, etc.

  16. Wonder how many of her emails contained amorous notes to Huma, her “assistant”–the interloper with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood?

  17. Since there are photos of Clinton carrying 2 phones, we can dismiss as absurd her excuse of not wanting to carry more than one phone.

    Queen Clinton acts above the law because she is. Her adoring constituents and even the State Department itself do not apply the law equally to her. She would obey the law if she was subject to it.

    I cannot fathom why we, as a people, permit the growth of a ruling government class. Or why anyone would vote for a person with such a well documented history of lying and unethical behavior. She even went so far as to attack the character of women Bill sexually harassed, knowing all the time their stories were true. As a woman, that is so offensive to me.

    And I’ve seen a clip of her at one of her speeches where she disdainfully brushed aside a reporter’s request to ask her a question, saying she would consider it and get back to him.

    We kicked a king out of our government for a reason.

  18. @Dogliver
    ~~ A few years back, I made a very vague reference on my Facebook about a non-security incident that was in public. A management level meeting was conducted and although not happy with me, I would not lose my job or nor be prosecuted for it. They continued to monitor my on-line activities, especially on my Facebook. My job was no where near the importance of the Secretary of State, yet my very vague reference about me saying “red box” in reference to a civilian on Facebook was an almost career ending incident. Pales in comparison to Mrs. Clintons having almost a dozen emails sent from her non authorized private server, and which are now marked as “classified”. We’ve had employees fired over past due debts, yet she gets a pass! It’s total hypocrisy.

  19. Isaac:

    “So, the emails are there to be scrutinized by the proper authorities. If she made a mistake it is no different than ANY politician’s mistakes, except of course the little cowboy and his handlers who slaughtered hundreds, and hundreds of innocents with their ‘faux pas’ called Iraq.”

    I honestly do not understand this rush to excuse unlawful behavior by Hillary Clinton. As Professor Turley remarked above, the strict protocol on email communications are well known in DC, and breaking them has severe consequences. Why should Hillary be held to a different standard? She’s been in government for decades. Not knowing does not hold water.

    And when she came under scrutiny, she deleted the emails.

    Why do you allow this to happen by excusing it? If we’re going to use the yeah but look at the sins of a completely other person excuse, we might as well abandon the entire criminal justice system.

    I just want the law to apply equally to everyone. Why is that such a high bar?

  20. POGO….I think The Manchurian Candidate (1962?) was taken out of circulation for years. The JFK assassination the following year made distributors reluctant to sell it to TV or for second runs in theaters.

  21. LOL!! Isaac is a Clintonista. Perfect, just freakin’ perfect. I did not see that coming. A person who claims to hate the duopoly pushes the most duopoly candidate ever. And, that BDS is festering. Hopefully a cure in our lifetime.

  22. Lisa:

    “Pales in comparison to Mrs. Clintons having almost a dozen emails sent from her non authorized private server, and which are now marked as “classified”.”

    Those are just the emails that Clinton decided State would be allowed to review. Think of the many thousands of emails she deleted without review.

    Not only is State supposed to have access to all emails in live time by using the State server, there is supposed to be an exit interview where she lists which emails she thinks are private, and which should be archived, and a State representative is supposed to review them all and determine if he agrees or not. Then she is supposed to sign a form indicating that all communications have been turned over.

    But she just acted like the law and rules just do not apply to her.

    And according to polls, they don’t.

  23. Hillary needs to be sporting an orange jumpsuit. How bad could it be? It’ll cover her cankles and couldn’t be any worse than her current neon-colored and ill-fitted pantsuits.

  24. I wonder how people feel who have already been prosecuted for far more minor security violations. Are they content that Hillary Clinton is above the law that ended their own careers and imposed criminal prosecution?

  25. Hank – “I’m not condoning what she did, but you cannot assume her home server was anything but top-tier. “. I don’t know how you can assume anything. Her server has either been destroyed or is locked up somewhere. My guess, we will never know what level of security it had. How can you assume only the best? I assume nothing which leaves open the possibility that her server was not secure.

    Why do we let the Repo and Demo parties dictate what our choices are. There are many other political parties. It is long past time we tell the RepoDemo (or DemoRepo) party to take a hike, they both have Fkd up our government pretty bad with invasions of foreign lands, bailing out rich bankers, giving money to their favorite business in exchange for kickbacks. Time for a change, tell the DemoRepo to get lost.

  26. Nick – I am amused by the lawyer speak answers – “There is no evidence” not “I didn’t do it.”

  27. “Getting a hummer from a clerk”

    Ah, some people can make infidelity, textbook sexual harassment, and general sleaziness sound so innocent. Well done sir.

  28. Hank:

    “I’m not condoning what she did, but you cannot assume her home server was anything but top-tier. Otherwise, what was the point?”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/security-of-hillary-clintons-private-e-mail-server-comes-under-scrutiny/2015/03/10/fcccfb78-c737-11e4-aa1a-86135599fb0f_story.html

    “The private e-mail server used by Hillary Rodham Clinton all but certainly lacked the level of security employed by the government and could have been breached fairly easily by determined foreign intelligence services, national security and cyber experts said.

    The office said “there is no evidence there was ever a breach” of the server.

    Some experts said it’s impossible to know for certain whether that’s the case. Clinton, according to at least one forensic account, was using a standard commercial server running on Microsoft software that, like any widely available software, has been found to have vulnerabilities.

    “If all that she had was standard technology . . . it would be merely a speed bump for a sophisticated adversary to gain access to everything there,” said Richard C. Schaeffer Jr., a former director of information assurance at the National Security Agency.”

    1. Your assumption is not based on any facts. It just appears to be an assumption that Clinton would not do anything wrong and she’s rich and can afford an expensive system.
    2. Clinton did not have the right to unilaterally decide to use her own private email server and just skip government security protocol. No State Department official has that right. That’s why they prosecute you for security breaches.
    3. She has refused to allow either her server or security protocols to be examined, so all we have is the word of someone who stands to lose
    4. She knowingly broke State security protocol and should be subject to the law just the same as everybody else. Cops are subject to the law, and so are politicians.
    5. She deleted thousands of emails instead of allowing State to review them and determine if they agreed with her assessment that they were none of State’s business
    6. Cybe security experts agree that her system was very vulnerable to attack
    7. Cyberattacks against government systems are immaterial. It’s not Clinton’s right or her job to circumvent the government system with her own, which by all accounts was even more vulnerable to attack.

  29. Guys, if you want Clinton to stop acting above the law then start applying the law to her.

    She wouldn’t behave this way if she was certain she would not get away with it.

    If we hold our politicians to a higher standard, then they will behave better.

  30. Hillary might want to play music at DEM convention “Helen of Troy”. Every breath you take. If she’s lesbo, then I got different sound tracks in mind.

  31. ” If she made a mistake it is no different than ANY politician’s mistakes,”

    Well, it seems the Clinton’s have a view on security and Hilary’s approach is not any different.

    Consider the case of ex CIA Director Deutch. He was caught with classified materials on his home computer – big deal? Not for insiders like Deutch when you have a Clinton to pardon you.

    At least the Clinton’s are not hypocrites. They extend the same courtesys to their minions as they practice them selves. How refreshing to see those at the very top practice uniformity in the application of law – ‘We’re the Clintons and we don’t give a damn about security and we don’t care if you do either’.

  32. @Karen S
    ~~ Yes, any and all systems can be hacked and I have a letter from OPM to prove it. Now I have free fraud protection at the governments expense. I was a CFE and a white-hat hacker. Needed warrants for my job, however there are plenty of black-hat hackers, who would do it for fun.

    We all know the real reason Clinton had a personal server. The Rose Lawfirm incident made her very aware, that everything she writes, can bite her in her big burdonkey. That’s why the government issues Blackberry’s, because those are the hardest to hack.

  33. @Jack Reacher “If State wanted her to use their server, they could and should have so directed but did not. Get over it.” There is Federal Law requiring the use of their server. No further direction is or should be required.

  34. The implications from Mrs. Clintons server/email indiscretions have yet to be determined or they’re being covered up. Add that, to her money laundering operation through the Clinton Foundation and international influence peddling, and those have solidified my opinion that she is not fit to be POTUS.

    I’d rather that 3am phone call be a notice from the Justice Dept., that she is under arrest and will be collected and perp walked into a federal jail facility to be booked for federal crimes against the United States of America and its citizens.

    Democrats have an issue, they have two choices to make. Select the 1st female as their presidential candidate or select the 1st socialist as one. Both are racist, just for being white, both are old and should die. . . according to Oprah and both are career politicians. Will a 3rd one declare. Are there any honest democrats still alive? lol

  35. The FBI should get a search warrant for her private residence where the mail server is alleged to be and take the server for a forensic analysis.

    Several questions among the many.

    1) Was the person who set up the server one with a security clearance and approved to do so by the federal government? (Likely answer is no). In our state a person legally cannot perform engineering work on a computer that has access to even license plate data unless they have a background check.

    2) Was the email server software used by the computer certified for secret documents or was it some commercially available piece pulled off the internet? I wouldn’t doubt it was some freeware version.

    3) Who is responsible for maintaining the Clinton server? Was it a State Department employee or Lenny down at Fred’s Fix-it shop? I don’t see Hillary or Bill Clinton having the expertise to admin a mail server.

    4) Did the server use at bare minimum use encrypted S/MIME or other type of encryption or was it clear text?

    5) Did the server use standard, unsecured SMTP and POP3 | IMAP4 exchange protocols? I’ll bet that these were cleartext and not the secured versions.

    6) Did the server have a secure operating system or Disk Storage? There are mountains of regs dealing with how to secure this.

    7) Did Hillary have a secure client / server connection and software for when she read her email?

    It goes on and on an on. I suspect that most security protocols were not met.

  36. Karen S … said

    Nick – I am amused by the lawyer speak answers – “There is no evidence” not “I didn’t do it.”

    Perfect. I’m waiting for the “blue dress moment” in this fandango. “I didn’t do it”…until, whoops I did!

    Stay tuned.

  37. And for the “there’s no evidence there ever was a breach” defense here is my answer.

    Well, if you never had logging, tracing, supervision, or oversight enabled on a mail server of COURSE there would be no evidence–none was ever collected.

    It astounds me how politicians or the likes delude themselves that they are so clever, the tech world will believe anything it is given.

    The ClintonMail Server 1.0 debacle in this respect is identical to what occurred with the IRS email scandal. When I heard the IRS officials’ arguments I couldn’t believe the level of baloney they were throwing around that their ex-director’s email disappeared, it was the only server that crashed and she was the only user on that server. Then, when it was magically found, it would take months to recover. Poppycock. For the recovery it would have taken only a few minutes to copy all her email to another medium and present it for inspection. Now, more of the same type of deception.

  38. Darren these are great questions. I will say I’m quite certain NSA was her backup server. Here’s a link to how that works:

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/02/look-under-hood-xkeyscore/

    Of course this was done for exactly the same reason as Dick Cheney made his energy task force “private” even though no thinking person would believe Cheney’s lie. “Private” means it’s off limits to the public. More and more of the govt. is functioning via private contractors and is thus unknown to our citizens. The TPP text is “private” from the public unless you are a very wealthy business owner. It’s so cynical.

    Anne, Bernie is as phony as Obama and Warren. I am horrified at how easily Democrats are falling for the entire 2008 playbook so readily after 12 years of brand Obama. Of course Bernie can fill stadiums, so did Obama. Yes, he says some good things, as did Obama. Bernie has a track record that Democrats need to pay attention to. I don’t think they will, he’s the new savior along with Warren.

    There are people like Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webb to investigate as candidates if people cannot bring themselves to vote outside the Democratic party. A good choice for president who happens to be a woman is Jill Stein of the Green Party.

  39. Jill,
    Jill Stein isn’t going to win diddly squat and a vote for her is wasted, sadly. If people don’t have realistic expectations they will have the worst of the options in office. I’m not willing to throw away my vote.

  40. Wait a minute, what about Benghazi? Are we finished there?

    On a scale of one to ten this is but a two or three. She is being investigated and the truth will out. However, what is most telling is how some make this two or three into a ten. In a perfect world this would not be allowed but look around and compare and contrast the others. Clinton presents the least potential damage to the US. She represents the most potential for moving forward and carries the least amount of baggage with her experience.

    So given that it will be a choice between Clinton and The Donald, or another Bush, or Rubio the vacuous punk, or Walker the McCarthy, or Cruz the ?, or anyone of the rest of that mob, taking into consideration that if a Republican got in you get the rest of the crazies along with him, do you really want to go back and down, and closer to out. Or, do you want to go forward to a less screwed up America. It may just be the lesser of the possible evils and not the best man or woman for the job.

  41. “Obama is the President, Nixon wanted to be.”

    Hillary learned well from her “Nixon” experience.

    Nixon should have just classified everything.

    Problem was; Nixon didn’t have “Clinton, Inc.” and the “Clinton Crime Foundation” to learn from.

    It helps when the crimes you commit are deliberately omitted from the nightly “news,” right, Hill?

    How did Hillary turn a $1K investment in cattle futures, into $100K, overnight, using Tyson Chicken’s broker? Hillary can’t work a fax machine or make tea but she would have us believe she was capable of successfully investing in a technical market where most people fail.

    Hillary and the Supreme Court. One great big joke – or “High crimes and misdemeanors.”

    “What difference, at this point, does it make?”

  42. The US is a complicated, hypocritical, perverse, corrupt, and unfair country that is also evolving to smooth itself out. There is good and bad to be found in greater amounts the higher up the ladder you go. The question, unfortunately, is how to we, as a nation, move up the societal evolution ladder? We had a taste of a Republican Presidency and they are typically followed by chaos and recession. Reagan is one example and Bush a far more extreme example. Clinton followed Reagan’s chaos and the US prospered. Obama is following the despicable Republican adventure that was the three stooges and is doing a yeoman’s job of cleaning up the mess and at the same time taking on entrenched cancers like health care insurance, Cuba, gay rights, etc. Obama is not over reaching or over stepping any more than any other President, Republican or Democrat. He ain’t perfect, that’s for sure. But, those that gotta hate will find any reason.

    The issue at hand is the direction not the sausage making. Regardless of party the sausage making will go on. It would be wonderful to have a more competent, more legally correct, and perhaps taller candidate than Hillary but we don’t. What one needs to focus on is that we have worse in the Republican gang: Bush, Trump, Rubio, Jindal, Cruz, Walker, whoaa.

  43. Issac,

    You’re expounding on the principles of the Communist Manifesto. What good are the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights? There is no point to the American founding documents and foundational positions written by the Framers. Your goal is the “fundamentally transform” America to a variant of communism.

    You contradict, repudiate, void and nullify the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights, as you advocate and support the principles of the Communist Manifesto, as compulsory populace integration, denial of private property, control of the means of production, central planning and redistribution of wealth.

    The American thesis is freedom and self-reliance as people adapt to and live with the consequences of freedom. If you’re an American, you accept freedom and self-reliance, which makes all that you promote unconstitutional. The only conclusion one can draw is that you are an anti-American communist.

    Does that mean you’re a traitor or an insurrectionist, or both?

    This is a funny world. The super patriot, the Paul Revere of his day, Edward Snowden, is in Russia and you, a treasonous and heretical subversive, are in here in America.

  44. It is so unfortunate that, according to the polls, Democrats will vote for Hillary Clinton no matter what she does, how many laws she breaks, or if she maintains media blackout and refuses to answer any tough questions during her entire run.

    I just don’t understand that mindset. I would never vote for a candidate that went against my conscience, just because I didn’t want to vote for another side. But I have a history of voting for whomever I thought was the best candidate, abstaining when I had no clear favorite.

    I believe that Democrats want to win not matter the cost. They will vote for a woman who’s been proven to lie and break the law just to get a Dem in the chair. I think they are wrong to act this way, because it affects the rest of us. It’s judging good and evil though political glasses.

  45. KAREN S.
    I think the mindset is blind partisanship. It can be found at both (or all) ends of the political spectrum.
    Any productive dialogue with partisan political hacks is likely to be unproductive. They are incapable of objectivity, or concessions re the deficiencies of ,”their ,”candidates.
    They are, and will continue to be, out it force on the road to the Hillary Coronation as the Democratic nominee. The blindly partisan Clinton supporters have had at least 20-25 years to refine their game of non-accountiblity.
    For the record, I’ll level these same criticisms against unbalanced rants that may be expressed in support of the Republican nominee.

  46. Annie, Democrats told each other to vote for Obama because he was the lesser of two evils and to do otherwise would waste your vote? Do you really think that has worked out for the people of the US and the world, because from where I stand he is doing an amazing amount of damage. What do the people ‘WIN” when you vote to “win”? You’ve got murder, torture, bank bailouts of criminal prosecutions, the Fast Track, wars. Please explain how a vote for Obama wasn’t a wasted vote as far as ordinary people are concerned.

    I also gave you the name of two other Democratic candidates for president. What’s wrong with even looking into them?

    I’m with Karen, vote your conscience. Doing so is one of the most powerful acts a citizen can do. Then never just stop at voting. Be a strong, questioning citizen who cares about our nation, it’s people and this planet. That would mean you’d have to go up against your party, but you should do that and so should Republicans. Too much is at stake not to.

  47. Jill, I voted for Jill Stein in 2012. She lost big time. Jim Webb is a blue dog Democrat, he would not represent me. Lincoln Chaffee as nice as he seems, is a bit of a joke.

  48. Forgotwhoiam

    It’s the ’50s all over again. What vitriol, what danger to the American ideal, what extremism, what ignorance.

  49. I doubt anyone here knows more about computers than Darren. Thanks Darren, for giving some clarity to the Clinton and Clintonista Orwellian BS.

  50. Issac,

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but that was sheer stupidity.

    Please counter, to the best of you ability, the points I’ve made.

    And, for your edification, that was none of your description – those are facts.

  51. Annie, I don’t agree with Karen’s candidates and I don’t expect her to agree with mine. What we do agree on is the importance of voting your conscience.

    Right now, the powerful elites in the Republican and Democratic parties can count on most of their constituents being stupid enough to vote for the candidate which was picked for them by the elites. It’s so easy to propagandize people when citizens are refusing to be citizens. There are no ethical values that most people won’t break so they can “win”. With citizens like that, it never matters who wins because the wrong person will never lose. That’s why, for example, Fast Track is for good for 6 years.

    You might ask yourself: why did Obama, an angelic Democrat, fight harder in Congress for six years of fast track than he fought for almost anything so far? Wouldn’t it be awful if Fast Track fell into the “wrong” hands after such a fine, wonderful president such as himself leaves office? What if an evil Republican takes office? Oh No! OMG! It’s a disaster right? No, not at all. Obama asked for, lobbied and twisted arms to get six years of Fast Track because there are no wrong hands that Fast Track can fall into. There are no evil Republicans or angelic Democrats in the minds of people who run things. That’s just BS to whip up voters to vote against our own interests.

    The only way you can’t be taken for granted as a citizen and a voter is to vote your conscience and to act on your true beliefs. It’s also the way to avoid being a victim of propaganda. It’s a lot harder to pull the wool over someone’s eyes when they have an actual set of ethics, ethics which they will follow even if it’s not popular. Elites hate people with their own values. They can’t count on them to take marching orders and they can’t count on lying to them. We stop being predictable the moment we vote our conscience.

    Chaffe is only a joke to people who refuse to take up their own power. If you think he’d make a good president, work on his behalf. The politics of fear keep us in line, obedient to the elites. They are destroying us all. Time to disobey!

  52. Karen S.,

    Democrats won’t be voting for Hillary, they’ll be voting for “free stuff.”

    The party could run a “ham sandwich.”

    Conservatives want “freedom.”

    Liberals want “free stuff.”

    Those democrats have been voting in Chicago for multiple decades. It’s near bankruptcy.

    Greece has been spending on “free stuff” for the lazy for decades also. Check out the Greek news.

    *****

    “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy–to be followed by a dictatorship.”

    ― Alexander Fraser Tytler

  53. Yes indeed. No punishment for Hillary for not following the rules on email.

    No trials at the Hague for George W. or Dick Cheney. Or Rumsfeld. Or Ashcroft, Gonzales, Wolfowitz,, Tenet, Libby, Addington…

    No punishment for the torturers. No bankers in jail.

    Really all kinda sad when you think about it.

  54. Conservatives want “freedom”? That’s rich.

    Speaking of rich, if I could get the kind of welfare and free stuff the so-called conservatives give away to corporations, I would probably switch parties. Red states are almost all takers when it comes to tax contributions and monies returned, and corporate welfare makes food stamp recipients look like, well, poor people because that’s what they are.

  55. Bill Clinton, “It depends on what the meaning of the word is is.”

    SCOTUS, “state means federal and federal means state, where did you learn English, America?”

    “Oh,” the SCOTUS said, “and by the way, the judicial branch has arbitrarily expanded operations into the

    legislative branch – law, we don’t need no stinking law – we’re the SCOTUS – KING SCOTUS.”

    The SCOTUS concludes, “Love those homosexuals. That’s and ORDER.”

  56. Jill, I’m not an apologist for Obama or the Democratic Party. I’m voting my conscience by voting for the least dangerous candidate and for the one that represents my interests and the interests of the country the best. Chafee, IMO, would be even more of a weak sister than Obama. Bernie Sanders is far better choice for President than Chaffee or especially Webb. FAR better.

  57. I would have no difficulty supporting Bernie Sanders, but even though the most recent Gallup Poll reports that 47% of voters would not object to a socialist President, much of that total is skewed toward younger voters, people who do not traditionally show up at the polls in high percentages. Therefore, I have serious doubts that Sanders could win the general election against Jeb Bush, who will be the Republican candidate. Barring unforeseen circumstances, this will be a Clinton-Bush contest, and Clinton will win. That’s not a happy prospect, but it’s far preferable to another Bush in the White House.

  58. Inga – I always make my final Presidential decision on whose finger do I want on the bomb. These last two elections I voted for Mickey Mouse.

  59. Then Annie, you should vote for Sanders.

    I believe you are mistaken about him being the least dangerous candidate. He and Warren are Democrats newest saviors. They are Obama 2.0 and they will be just as bad for the planet and our nation and other people of the world as he is.

    My only hope is that this time, as soon as you see that he wasn’t on your side the way you thought, you won’t make up a million excuses like Democrats did for Obama. The moment he doesn’t do what you thought he would do, protest. Get moving! Don’t wait for the ship of state to turn around or his 12 dimension chess game to end. Please don’t accuse his critics of being prejudiced against the elderly, or call people who disagree with the president, traitors! No, don’t buy any excuse. Push for what you really thought you were getting and what you really want. Settling for less than this is BS and a danger to our nation.

  60. Mike A. One of the powerful bankers recently said Clinton or Bush would be O.K. with him. That tells me everything I need to know.

  61. Mike – I think the vagina vote is softening so Biden may jump in. And I wouldn’t count Carly out. She is doing well in a large field. Hillary is a almost a solitary candidate. It would be nice to see her get some competition. Obama took her to the cleaners.

  62. SillyT,

    Conservatives don’t have welfare in their lexicon – individual or corporate. You may be confusing RINO liberals in conservatives’ clothing. There sure are no conservatives in the Republican party. Bailouts of any business or any individual are illegal and unconstitutional. You need to arrest anyone you find doing that and throw them in jail. Deleterious currency printing and incestuous bond buying by the Ponzi-scheming “moneychangers” at the very criminal “Fed/Treasury Complex” is unconstitutional and antithetical also. Markets take care of the assets of dead businesses with extreme prejudice and efficiency. The bailouts you refer to were for unions such as the UAW at GM, corollary parasitic governmental worker unions, elected liberal politicians and banksters. No market ever needs or engages in bailouts. There are investors who specialize in liquidated assets, restructuring and turnarounds.

    The “rich” are the ambitious who work hard. The poor are the lazy. I heard the tale of the guy, out of work, who started washing cars. Next thing he was a mobile car washer. Next thing he had more cars than he could wash. Next thing he hired help. Next thing he hired more help and made large capital purchases. Someone tried to contact this unemployed guy the other day but he was too busy to answer his Apple i-Phone cuz he was managing his business, on his way to the bank with a load of money. Oh yeah, there’s a lot of intellect and proficiency required for a car washing business.

    Your mistake is that you think you’re helping people by giving them “free stuff.”

    “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

    That’s an axiom and your liberal psycho-babbling will never prevail over an axiom.

    Take your pick the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights or the Communist Manifesto.

    Freedom and Self-Reliance vs. slavery to and sustenance by the state.

  63. forgotwhoiam

    That is quite the fantasy world you inhabit. Are there libertarian unicorns and dragons inspired by rational self-interest? One hardly knows where to begin with your nonsense.

    Not only did you forget who you are, but you clearly forgot where you came from and how you got anywhere.

  64. “You’re expounding on the principles of the Communist Manifesto.”

    The principles of the Communist Manifesto are not to seek more informed voters-what I expound constantly-not to limit the influence of the special interest groups/money-I constantly label this country what it is an oligarchy more in line with a dictatorship or a communist structure-etc. I am for a democracy, informed and untainted with money and special interests, kind of like what has been intended through out history.

    “What good are the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights? There is no point to the American founding documents and foundational positions written by the Framers.”

    The only good is how the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights are interpreted by the society of the day, or by those who find fault. Granted Clinton, Obama, and pretty much every other politician that gets into power, Republican as well as Democrat steps all over these ‘sacred documents’ and granted they are worth nothing in the face of actions. However as seen with every administration and every Supreme Court it is all in the interpretation of the importance of the words vis a vis the reality of the time. SCOTUS 50 years ago would have ruled against gays, against the ACA, and against a lot of things that they rule in favor of today. The sacred words stay the same. It’s called evolution.

    “Your goal is the “fundamentally transform” America to a variant of communism.”

    America is to a degree socialist. The word communism you and most others do not understand. Yesterday’s communism is today’s socialism, and tomorrow’s progressivism. The fact of the matter is that in this interwoven world, the world America has chosen to be a part of, a country must be stable and the present political structure, system of government, and ideals of, luckily, a smaller and smaller but still substantial number of Americans stand in the way of a better society for all. You know We the People.

    “You contradict, repudiate, void and nullify the Preamble, Constitution and Bill of Rights, as you advocate and support the principles of the Communist Manifesto, as compulsory populace integration, denial of private property, control of the means of production, central planning and redistribution of wealth.

    The American thesis is freedom and self-reliance as people adapt to and live with the consequences of freedom. If you’re an American, you accept freedom and self-reliance, which makes all that you promote unconstitutional. The only conclusion one can draw is that you are an anti-American communist.

    Does that mean you’re a traitor or an insurrectionist, or both?

    This is a funny world. The super patriot, the Paul Revere of his day, Edward Snowden, is in Russia and you, a treasonous and heretical subversive, are in here in America.”

    The rest of your spew is only indicative of a shaky mind or someone who has started the July 4th revelries too early. Take a little water in your wine.

  65. Jill – I did not make up the term. I am only repeating it. It covers women who are voting for Hillary because they both have vaginas.

  66. issac – Paul Revere never completed the ride. He was arrested by the British. A Dr. Prescott, who was coming back from a ‘hot date’ went back and completed the ride. Prescott did not fit the rhyme scheme.

  67. The Democratic & Republicans certainly have failed in their role to, at this point, provide us with excellent candidates for the presidency. It certainly going to negatively affect our nation for many years as it already has. But, on another note people often times get the politicians they deserve.

  68. Tom Nash:

    It’s very true that there can be extremists in any political party.

    Jill:

    Don’t listen to Annie. She’s just getting personal again. I used to vote across party lines, and I have refused to vote when I thought all the candidates were bananas. I know of at last one fiscal conservative Democrat at the local level whom I like very much. I’ve criticized Republicans and Libertarians for behaving badly, like the guy who abused his authority to go after a paper that criticized him, or Republicans who baked Monsanto’s (damn their eyes) fight against GMO labelling.

    It was only after Obamacare hit that I developed a real antipathy to the Liberal Democrats that took away my financial security, and then disdainfully dismissed the complaints of people like me. I’d like to see rent/mortgages raised 1100% “for the poor” and then call people who say they can’t afford that “whiners” or people who don’t care about the poor. Or repeat that lovely suggestion that they just get rid of their pets and stop complaining. This was a financial hit that the middle class can’t weather in these tough economic times, but since the employer mandate hasn’t hit yet, not everyone knows what it’s like.

    What I care about is fiscal responsibility, and results. If a program doesn’t work, I want it changed and try something new. But tell that to a politician who just wants a talking point!

  69. Mike A – Greece tried socialist leaders, and things didn’t work out so well for them. I think that it is unwise to keep repeating an experiment and expect a different result.

    The socialist experiment has been tried at several levels, from Nanny State to government ownership of industry, all with similar results. We’re having a hard enough time with our economy with our spending addiction.

    The kids like the idea of socialism – get paid for twiddling your fingers or for working hard. And everyone has the same standard of living no matter their talent, work ethic, education, or luck. And then they start working and begin to resent when people don’t pull their weight at the office. All of a sudden, a meritocracy gives them some influence over their own lives. Modern capitalism lets the young entrepreneur invent a new product or start a new company. Unless they work for government, and then they can just twiddle their fingers all day and get paid the same as the guy working hard in the cubicle next door.

  70. Darren – I hate this double standard. It’s our fault, not the government’s, because we are so jaded we just shrug our shoulders. We’ve become enablers.

  71. What is another harmful effect of Liberal policies? Enacting policy that prohibits police departments from contacting ICE. These sanctuary cities act as further attractants to criminal illegal immigrants.

    This beautiful young woman was shot and died in her father’s arms when a 5-times-deported illegal alien shot her for no reason. He did not follow our gun laws. SF PD had him in custody, but was not allowed to hand him over to ICE. Because that would apparently have been rude. And it would have been catch-and-release anyway because of our porous border.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/03/man-arrested-in-connection-with-san-francisco-killing-had-been-deported-several/

    In all faireness, I have to add that ICE’s holier-than-thou tone falls on deaf ears. They have also been found guilty of directing their border patrol agents to look the other way from border crossers.

    https://www.numbersusa.com/news/border-patrol-agent-testifies-senate-committee-indicated-6-10-aliens-cross-border

    “While testifying before the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee, Border Patrol agent Chris Cabrera indicated that nearly 6 out of 10 illegal aliens cross into the United States without being apprehended. Cabrera is an agent at the Rio Grande Valley Sector in Texas and is the vice president of National Border Patrol Council (NBPC) Local 3307, a union for border agents.

    Cabrera went on to testify that that his fellow agents “face retribution” from their superiors for reporting illegal alien groups larger than 20.

    “Agents who repeatedly report groups larger than 20 face retribution. Management will either take them out of the field and assign them to processing detainees at the station or assign them to a fixed position in low volume areas as punishment,” Cabrera told lawmakers. “Needless to say Agents got the message and now stay below this 20 person threshold no matter the actual size of the group.”

    Cabrera also noted that the Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agency, a component of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), is manipulating statistics and misleading the American people about security along the U.S.-Mexico border.

    “I want to address whether or not the border is secure. If you ask this question of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) or senior management at Customs and Border Protection (CBP), they will tell you the border is secure,” the Border Patrol agent told lawmakers. “They may even point to statistics and metrics showing that the Border Patrol is 75 percent effective in apprehending illegal immigrants and drug smugglers.”

    However, he also said, “I want to be crystal clear – the border is not secure,” later adding, “How can this enormous gap exist between what the DHS tells you here in Washington and what our Agents know to be the truth in the field? Frankly, it is how you manipulate the statistics.””

  72. I say Jonathan Turley should run for president. Even though he’s a liberal, he is loyal to the principles of the U.S. Constitution and hates lawlessness. I’d vote for him because he had a conscience.

    Trump would be an option because he would run this country like a well oiled machine. Walker would be great too.

  73. DS,

    Nixon’s faux pas lasted only 18 minutes. This is the Nixon data retention protocol with a double-digit exponent. But this is dwarfed by the SCOTUS’s inability to read the English language and simply follow directions – read the words and decide if actions comport with the literal law.

    The People are the new sovereign, not the SCOTUS. Flawed legislation must be rejected and returned to the legislative branch for modification or termination. The People rule through their representatives in the Congress. The SCOTUS has no authority to dictate or legislate. The Obamacare/Homosexual Marriage decisions demonstrate an egregious, cavalier and “ends justify the means,” SCOTUS government seizure protocol.

  74. Lisa Nichols……I would recommend that you take a look at the multiple bankruptcies of Trump’s businesses.

  75. Mike Appleton,
    “Jeb Bush, who will be the Republican candidate. Barring unforeseen circumstances, this will be a Clinton-Bush contest, and Clinton will win.”

    I hope you’re wrong because I dislike and distrust the man, but I have already gotten a polling phone call wondering who I’d vote for if it was between Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton (and that was before either one of them had officially announced they’d be running!). Gak. I said neither and the guy manning the phone laughed.

    I fear your prediction about Clinton could be right, too. Gotta get that first woman in the White House, never mind her principles. Sheesh. I’m cynical enough to believe there’s some funny business behind the scenes that will set up these two regardless of what the American people actually want. (Remember the crap both the DNC and the RNC pulled on the delegates last time around?)

  76. Mike Appleton……you need to re-read that Gallup poll. It showed that 47% of the electorate would NOT even consider voting for a socialist. It also showed that 57% would not consider voting for an athiest.
    These were the two highest rankings I saw in the category of “biases AGAINST”.

  77. This is much Ado about Nothing. Beat up on Hillary. This is the worst you have on her. Go back to your Choice Not an Echo apCray.

  78. Off topic but we got an email to my half blind guy pal from Betty Lou Thema Liz that she and HumpinDog did get married in Cuba and are now in Ecuador. She did not say that they tied the knot but did say that they are on honeymoon. We will now begin the ordeal to get their different sex different creature marriage recognized in NC.

  79. @Tom Nash “I would recommend that you take a look at the multiple bankruptcies of Trump’s businesses.”
    ~~ How many cities or states run by liberals, have filed bankruptcy? Next will be Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore. This country is close to it. Look at Greece and Italy. At least Trump believes in good ole fashioned innovation and hard work.
    Jen Bush is last on my list. Liberals want to convince Conservatives that Bush will be the only candidate to beat Hillary, but we all know they did the same with John McCain.

  80. Lisa Nichols…..I agree with your comparison of Trump to politicians who ran their cities into the ground. And they may have worked as hard at that as Trump did screwing his creditors.

  81. Tom Nash:

    You need to read the actual poll results instead of the “Story Highlights,” which contains a typo. The poll shows that 47% of voters would support an otherwise qualified socialist and 58% would consider a qualified atheist.But 50% would not vote for a socialist.

  82. Oh God. We’re 50/50 on voting for socialists, now? It must be our rotten economy. People just want free stuff, like Greece did.

    Does anyone have a link to the poll, so I can depress myself? Or did I miss it upstream?

    Why do people think we can repeat the socialism experiment and get a different result?

  83. Mike…..I’ve been unsuccessful in attempts to post links. This is my “low-tech”presentation of the raw Gallup polling data, mostly listed in order of candidates that those polled would NOT consider voting for:
    A Woman. 8%
    S Black . 8%
    h
    Hispanic 7%
    Jewish 7%
    Mormon 18%
    Gay 24%
    Evangelical Christian 25%
    Muslim 38%
    Atheist 40%
    Socialist 50%

  84. OK, I found this:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/183713/socialist-presidential-candidates-least-appealing.aspx

    The headline of the actual gallup article reads, “In US, Socialist Presidential Candidates Least Appealing.”

    That’s quite a bit different from the gist of the Huffpo article.

    “As the 2016 presidential election field takes shape, more than nine in 10 Americans say they would vote for a qualified presidential candidate who is Catholic, a woman, black, Hispanic or Jewish. Less than half of Americans would vote for a candidate who is a socialist.”

    But Mike A is right that the least popular candidate, a socialist, managed to get support of 47%, and that voters under 30 were more likely to do so.

    Broken down by political party, 59% of Democrats would vote for a socialist (which points to a real flaw in the party), while 26% of Republicans would do so (because they clearly don’t understand what self identifying as a Republican means.) 49% of Independents would vote socialist, which makes sense because they lean Democratic, but I did not see a Libertarian figure.

    So, wow, 47% of people in the US must lack both an education in both history and global current events if they think that voting for a socialist would be a good idea here in the US.

    I blame our public school system.

  85. AlterNet’s headline stated that this was “good news for Bernie Sanders”. I can’t see that this level of opposition, the highest level of opposition in the Gallup poll, as good news for Sanders.

  86. http://www.vice.com/read/atlas-mugged-922-v21n10

    Atlas mugged: How a libertarian experiment in Chile fell apart.

    “”A con of this magnitude could only have existed in the libertarian community because [Johnson] used their paranoia and distrust of the government to say, ‘Put everything in a trust, I won’t tell anybody who you are, don’t let anyone find out you’re investing, and I prefer you use precious metal or Bitcoins so it can’t be traced,'” Kirley said. “It really worked out well, whether it was intentional or just the perfect storm.””

  87. http://gawker.com/ayn-rands-capitalist-paradise-is-now-a-greedy-land-grab-1627574870

    Ayn Rand’s Capitalist Paradise Is Now a Greedy Land-Grabbing Poopstorm

    “Atlas Shrugged readers remember Galt’s Gulch as the rural refuge where Ayn Rand’s Real Men of Genius spurned American socialism for their own anti-leftist paradise. Some inspired libertarians have set up a real-life Galt’s Gulch in Chile. Unregulated capitalism, though, is presenting some problems!

    In other words, Galt’s Gulch Chile sounds exactly like the sort of plan you would expect from a a bunch of fans of a crotchety old millionairess who wrote a book called The Virtue of Selfishness.”

  88. [music to the Armour Hot Dog Song]

    Cell phones! Where’s my cell phone?
    What kind of people steal my cell phone?
    Fat kids, skinny kids, kids who climb on rocks.
    Big urdTays, little urdTays,
    Even kids with chicken pox,
    Steal cellphones.
    They steal cellphones!
    The phones… kids like…. to bite!

  89. Karen S.
    Thanks for your post about Bernie and socialism. I think this is very much like people who say they are TOTALLY opposed to ObamaCare, but when you ask them about the specific provisions they can’t find one they don’t like. When people hear what Sen. Sanders actually has to say, they are often won over.

    The challenge for his challengers will be to try to smear him as a socialist and hope no one goes any deeper.

  90. Thanks I.Annie

    Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead were fun to read as a young adult. They have the kind of simplistic thinking and fantasy heroes that appeal to the less-than-fully-formed brain.

    But like so-called Austrian economics, trickle-down theories, and almost everything that libertarians espouse, they are just fantasies that never have and never can exist in the real world.

    Sad these people never grow up. Still, thanks for posting.

  91. Tom Nash “I agree with your comparison of Trump to politicians who ran their cities into the ground. And they may have worked as hard at that as Trump did screwing his creditors.”

    ~~ Well I bet the “Occupy Wall Street” protesters would consider your last sentence to be pro-consumer and protest on your front lawn. They would back the Donald on screwing his creditors, which is their sociopolitical ideology, since they support anti-consumerism. Trump did exactly what Democrats love to do, so consider that his contribution to social activism.

  92. This just in from Reuters: “U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton accused China on Saturday of stealing commercial secrets and “huge amounts of government information,” and of trying to “hack into everything that doesn’t move in America.””

    Spoken like someone who truly knows and has personal experience with this serious problem. Tell us about it Hilary – inquiring minds want to know.

  93. lisa Nichols…..I can’t see that comparing Donald Trump’s multiple business bankruptcies to the bankruptcies of poorly-run cities refects well on either Trump or the politicians who ran their cities into the ground.
    Nor do I consider Trump’s business bankruptcies as “a contribution to social activism”. But if his supporters want to try to make that case,go for it. If he stays in the race for any length of time, he’s going to need all of the help he can get.
    Especially when more and more attention is focused on his business/bankruptcy dealings…..he’s gotten a ” free ride” on his background so far.

  94. Tom Nash
    ~~ At least he doesn’t accept foreign donations to influence his decisions like Hillary. He doesn’t lie like Hillary. He’s not a Socialist like Sanders. He’s not old like Sanders. How many businesses have the two democrat clowns ever started much less owned. Unlike Hillary, doesn’t have the blood of dead Americans on his hands. He’s done business with every major foreign country and Hillary is for sale in every major foreign country. You can’t sell Trumps loyalty like Hillary does. Hillary isn’t fit to clean Trumps suits.

  95. Lisa Nichols…..you might look at my comment about Hillary….it’s near the top, c. Comment ,#22.
    Trump is about 4 years younger than Bernie Sanders……Don’t let the orange hair fool you.
    Trump and Sanders are sideshows….I don’t anticipate either one lasting very long. The Republican nominee will almost certainly face Her Majesty Hillary.
    Once the Trump clown show is over, I feel that there are maybe a half-dozen serious Republicans contenders to watch.
    The only question in my mind is if, not when, Trump gets weeded out. I don’t think Gov. Christie will be around very long, either.

  96. Tom Nash – Trump is just telling the truth. Obama has been quietly setting things up for 11.5 million illegals to be able to vote in the next election.

  97. Paul C. Schulte…..Clinton/Gore did the same thing, on a smaller scale, to buy votes. Obama is the Clinton/Gore vote-getting scam on steroids.
    Recognising that, I don’t think that a bloward jackass like Trump is the best effective counter to Her Highness.
    I hope that Trump supporters have a “Plan B” once he self-destructs.

  98. The Clinton’s like the Gore’s are con artists. They do anything they want to do when they want to do it and then deny they did anything wrong.

    As for Trump–he’s a brash speaker who is not remotely close to a politician, and he admits to that. As insulting as many have accused him of being, he is speaking the truth. BTW, anyone who thinks there is only 11.5 million illegals in this country are dim witted. The 11.5 figure is 10 years old. We must have close to 30 million illegals in this country now. Many of them jobless, because we just don’t have enough jobs to go around…soooo, they are on now in our welfare system.
    Trump is also right about Russia and China, so let’s get our heads out of the sand, and not fear political incorrectness.

    Trump will not win, but he’s doing well in the polls, because people are saying. “Yes, finally someone who is saying it as it is, even if it hurts us to hear it.”

  99. Sorry but if Bill could marry that dog in the photo then I do not see what the problem is with Betty Lou Thelma Liz and HumpinDog hooking up in matrimony.

  100. Political correctness has eroded our 1st Anendment rights. Look what their doing to Trump because he speaks truth. . . NASCAR has moved their benefit venue from Trumps hotel in Florida, Univision drop him, Macy’s isn’t selling his clothes line and the socialist Deblasio is even looking at his contracts with the city of New York. They are going to financially punish him for being honest. Political correctness is a detriment to this country. Trump has shown us what damage has been done to this country.

    Then bringing immigrants here for voting purposes is utterly contemptible. As far illegal criminals, it’s very true, look at all the jails in Texas and Arizona, you’ll find the majority of their populations are illegal immigrants who have committed atrocities on Americans. I got to spend a week at a jail, for a study I was doing. I’ve seen rapist, child abusers, lots of gang members, drug dealers and twice in that week, they arrested sex traffickers and the girls recovered were under the age of 15. A lot of others were arrested for DWI and public intoxication. It was a challenge for those officers to try and ID them because they have so many aliases and they lie about their age and names. They have no ID’s.

    There was no arrests of legal immigrants, however there was one guy from Ireland who was arrested for assault. He had been sent back to Ireland before and came back. At that time, the president was letting most of these people stay. The majority of incarcerated people are people from Mexico or El Salvador and not whites or blacks. These jail officers were spat on, feces thrown on them, they were bit and assaulted by them. Yet, they had not had a raise since 2008. They worked 12 hour shifts and Trumps words are most likely music to their ears.

    That’s why I’m offended by the hush hush atmosphere the Liberals espouse in this regard because of PC. So I like Trump talking about it and the more the leftist media tries to excoriate him for it, the more attention is on it. Both Bush and Rubio has shown weakness in this area. Immigrants are fine, as long as their legal immigrants. Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and Scott Walker are also good candidates. Open borders is the greatest risk to our security because ISIS exploits our weaknesses.

  101. “As far illegal criminals, it’s very true, look at all the jails in Texas and Arizona, you’ll find the majority of their populations are illegal immigrants who have committed atrocities on Americans.”

    Anybody have some stats on the distribution of criminal charges for illegal aliens arrested, charged and held in border states?

    Which of those charges fall under the heading atrocities?

    What is the percentage of aliens held for atrocities compared to the aliens held – (number held for atrocities)/(number held)?

  102. Bigfatmike
    ~~ So child rape and sex trafficking is defined as what in the world according to Bigfatmike?

    A little indiscression?

  103. “~~ Hit a nerve? Awh”

    Call for data. I am always interested in the facts that support an argument.

    You got it? Or you don’t?

    BTW, you don’t need to apologize, anyone who has read me knows I am pretty impervious to nerve pain. I don’t care what you say – as long as you have the facts and logic to back it up.

  104. “~~ So child rape and sex trafficking is defined as what in the world according to …A little indiscression?”

    Not by me.

    You are the one who mentioned atrocities.

    DOJ/FBI has some pretty good stats regarding crime in the 50 states. I don’t recall they break out atrocities.

    Please tell us which crime stats you are using. Or please tell us which crimes listed in the FBI’s uniform crime reports, in your opinion, qualify as atrocities.

    Perhaps you could also give us some summary numbers for the crimes that qualify as atrocities.

    I would also love to see how those crimes/atrocities break out between citizens and aliens.

    You are the one who made the claim that border state jails are filled with aliens who committed atrocities. It seems to me that any fair minded person who made that claim in public would be able to back up the claim with some hard data.

    You got any data or not?

  105. “~ So child rape and sex trafficking is defined as what in the world according ”

    I consider it child rape and sex trafficking.

    Do you have the break out to show us summary numbers between citizens and aliens – or not?

    Do you have numbers of those charged or convicted in border states for those crimes – or not?

    In the border states can you break out citizens charged or convicted from aliens charged or convicted – or not?

    You got the numbers? Or not?

    What, exactly is the basis for that big academic study you are doing.

    Surely if you are making a serious study and have reached conclusions you can share some data with us.

    Please, don’t be shy. We all want to know.

  106. I’m not your secretary, look the facts upyourself, I saw them with my own eyes. The study is old and I know the numbers are higher because that jail has recently been forced to build a bigger jail facility. They cost that county so much that no raises and these people are paid way below the norm nationally.
    Let me define Atrocities for you.

    a·troc·i·ty
    əˈträsədē/
    noun
    plural noun: atrocities
    an extremely wicked or cruel act, typically one involving physical violence or injury.
    “war atrocities”
    synonyms: abomination, cruelty, enormity, outrage, horror, monstrosity, obscenity, violation, crime, abuse; More

  107. “I’m not your secretary, look the facts upyourself”

    You made the claim. Substantiate you remarks or be revealed as a fake.

    As for you definition of atrocity, that in no way tells us which criminal activity counts as an atrocity according to you standard and you remarks.

    Have you even tried to determine the number of ‘atrocities’ or are you just making that up.

    Do you have some real data or are you just faking it.

    Are you a fake or do you have some data.

    This is important stuff. If you have some real data please tell us.

    But if you have no data and don’t have a clue as to which chargeable offenses count as atrocities then just admit you don’t have a clue.

    There is no shame in profound ignorance.

    The only shame is in lying about your ignorance.

    You got the data? Or not?

  108. @bigfatmike
    ~~ I’m currently taking 16 hours of medical classes this semester and again in the fall, I study for hours and hours every single day. I shouldn’t even let this take up my time but engage in breaks. I just don’t have time to look it up. My time is in books and what little time left over is spent with my family. You’ll have to look it up.

  109. “Let me define Atrocities for you. … a·troc·i·ty …əˈträsədē/ …. noun …. plural noun: atrocities
    an extremely wicked or cruel act, typically one involving physical violence or injury. … “war atrocities”
    synonyms: abomination, cruelty, enormity, outrage, horror, monstrosity, obscenity, violation, crime, abuse; More …”

    So…, now, which chargeable offenses resulting in incarceration count as atrocities?

    What are the number of people held on those criminal charges that count as atrocities?

    What is the break out between citizens and aliens in those numbers charged for crimes that count as atrocities.

    We are all waiting. This is a serious subject. We all want to know.

    You claim to know. Surely you don’t mind sharing your knowledge – do you?

  110. ” I’m currently taking 16 hours of medical classes this semester and again in the fall, I study for hours and hours every single day. I shouldn’t even let this take up my time but engage in breaks. I just don’t have time to look it up. My time is in books and what little time left over is spent with my family. You’ll have to look it up.”

    Correct me if I am wrong. But, to me, that sounds like an admission that you don’t have the data and you don’t know where to find it. If that is true maybe you should not go around claiming that the jails of border states are filled with aliens who have committed atrocities.

    I am sure there are many aliens who have committed serious crimes. However the vast majority have not. We incarcerate huge numbers of citizens – but many are held for years for non violent crimes. I don’t think our understanding is enhanced by using terms like atrocities and making claims that are not supported by data.

    The fact is that violent crime is trending down – but still a serious problem.

    The fact is that our immigration problem is far more complex than just the number of violent crimes committed.

    Scare talk about atrocities doesn’t help anyone and does not help us understand the problems we face.

  111. “My time is in books and what little time left over is spent with my family”

    May I wish you the very best with your studies and to your family. I am sure we will be hearing more from you in the future – when you have some time.

  112. Fascinating article that tells us:

    Q: I would think that undocumented immigrants would be more likely to commit crimes than American citizens. But I read a story the other day that said they actually commit fewer crimes than most Americans. Could that really be true?

    No one really knows for sure. Various reports have demonstrated that many of the country’s lowest crime rates can be found in places with the highest immigration rates; that America’s crime rate dropped radically between the mid-nineties and the early twenty-first century, just as immigration was booming; and that the incarceration rate of native-born men is higher than that of immigrants. But there are problems with these reports. Few of them differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants; the former are often well-educated people who have been vetted by immigration officials and their prospective employers. Lumping them in with illegal immigrants might sharply skew the statistics. Also, using incarceration rates is tricky: It is surprisingly difficult to determine what portion of the prison population is made up of people who are here illegally. As a result, the crime rate among undocumented immigrants could be under reported.

    I am still trying to figure out which of those chargeable offenses are atrocities.

    BTW, the article in several places emphasizes the complexity of the immigration problem, and suggest, to me at least, that intuition is not a good guide.

  113. “The facility is run by MTC, a private company that is under contract with the U.S. Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP). The BOP lists the number of detainees at 2,881, with the population being made up primarily of immigration detainees.”

    So a whole bunch of people that might or might not be illegal aliens rioted at a contract prison.

    Do you have a clue how many times prisoners riot at contract prisons run by companies like CCA and MTC.

    BTW, if there are any atrocities going on in that story they are probably committed by the contract company on the inmates through things like under staffing leading to inability to maintain order, unnecessary violence against inmates, and deficient medical care.

    Careful not you might have me crying for the inmates even though we don’t have a clue as to which are citizens and which are illegal aliens.

  114. “Some of these Texas facilities are little more than tents, privy to poor plumbing and little protection against the elements. This leads to reports of unsanitary conditions such as overflowing toilets, insect infestations, and overcrowded living quarters. And with a sluggish legal system to process these prisoners out of CAR facilities, the result is a huge waste of taxpayer dollars — in 2014, the Bureau of Prisons requested $700 million for 2014 to fund privately-run prisons such as CAR facilities, according to the ACLU’s report.”

    Excuse me, but if you took the time to read the story you would see that the unmittigated disaster is the prison and the treatment of the inmates.

    It is the prison that is the disaster!!! The atrocities are committed against the prisoners!!!!

  115. Arguing with Liberals is like kicking a dead horse and then shooting it again. Gays argue they are born gay but yet, how can that be when Libs don’t recognize a fetus as human or alive but yet can know it’s born gay.

  116. Why don’t you donate 15% or 20% of your salarie or all Liberals salaries to improve conditions. Texas can’t afford it anymore.

  117. “In Travis County, the program has indeed led ICE agents to flag people charged with murder and other violent crimes for deportation. Over the past three years, ICE issued detainers for people charged with 3,614 felonies , including Areli Carbajal Escobar, who isn’t likely to be deported because he was sentenced to death last year for the 2009 sexual assault and murder of 17-year-old Bianca Maldonado in East Austin.”

    So let get this straight. You are claiming that border prisons are filled to overflowing with 3614 felons?

    This story suggest that ICE has ample resources to handle the illegal aliens they encounter.

    3614 felonies in the past three years does not sound to me like illegal aliens represent a particularly dangerous population – after all there are probably well over 10,000,000 in the country. And 3614 felonies in the past three years does not sound like prisons in border states are over whelmed.

    And I still wonder which of those 3614 felonies are atrocities? In some states driving on a suspended is a felony. Is that an atrocity too.

    So far I don’t think you have in any way substantiate you claims that jails in border states are being overwhelmed by illegal aliens who have committed atrocities.

    You remember that claim you made.

    Can you tell us which chargeable offenses are atrocities.

    Can you tell us how many atrocities have been committed.

    How many illegal aliens are held in state jails and prisons for atrocities.

    What about it?

    Have you found any real data yet?

  118. Argue with hand, I’m done kicking a dead horse and having to shoot it over and over. Bye Felicia.

  119. In the news yesterday, a Illegal Hispanic man who has had multiple arrests and deportations from CA, killed a woman for no apparent reason in San Francisco–the far left liberal capital of the world.
    CA jails are filled with illegal people, not because they are found to be illegal, but because they are gang members, thieves, and murderers. The same holds true for Arizona and Texas.

    California is one of the main contributors to illegal immigration. For years it was easy for illegals to enter CA–and it still is. It’s easy to walk across the border from Tijuana. I’ve known several people who did this and bragged that it didn’t take much effort to cross the border. Look beyond agriculture as the culprit for hiring these people for cheap labor. Look at the restaurants, housekeepers, nannies, warehouse workers, assembly line workers, gardeners, construction workers, seamstresses etc. Hundreds of thousands of jobs taken from American citizens. It was okay when there were tons of jobs and not enough workers, but now we have fewer jobs and too many people seeking jobs. It cannot continue at the rate it is going now.

    People must enter the country legally, with the proper papers–no more excuses.

  120. ” That number represents about 16.4 percent of the state and local prison population compared to the 12.9 percent of the total population comprised of foreign-born residents.”

    So FAIR tells us illegal aliens are represented in slightly greater proportions. That does not sound like they are overwhelming the border states to me.

    Did FAIR tell you which of those illegal aliens committed atrocities.

    Claiming that border state prisons are overwhelmed by illegal aliens who committed atrocities sounds like fear monger to me.

  121. “However, a growing number of Texas private prisons built on speculation have failed in recent years to win or maintain contracts. Just take a look at Emerald’s own history. The company pulled out of the LaSalle County Detention Center in Encinal after failing to secure a profitable enough contract with the federal government and the County is currently facing default on its bonds. Several other Texas communities have faced similar problems — including Waco’s Jack Harwell Detention Center and the empty Bill Clayton Detention Center in Littlefield — as well. … Alvarado has clearly been sold a bill of goods here, and the city and federal government should be wary of contracting with companies whose leaders openly use dispariging terms for immigrants and gloat about making money off of their prolonged detention. ”

    So you are claiming this supports you claim that illegal aliens commit atrocities and are over whelming jails and prisons in border states???

    Do you even read what you post?

    I really hope you don’t turn in home work like this.

  122. “The information below is taken from news sources. The aliens in these reports were all identified as being in the country illegally, and many of them had come into the hands of law enforcement agencies prior to the crime that is described below, but the alien was not deported or in some cases was deported but reentered the country.”

    That article list 15 felonies in 18 months. I doubt that is accurate.

    But I don’t think you are convincing me that border prisons are being overwhelmed by illegal aliens when you present an article that documents 15 felonies in 18 months.

  123. “With the obama administration and special interest groups working to push legislation through congress that would grant permanent legal status (i.e., an amnesty) to the illegal alien population, it is worth taking a fresh look at the current fiscal costs of illegal immigration to texas taxpayers and the potential effects of enacting an amnesty.”

    This report is not even about felons or the crimes they have committed.

    You ought to be ashamed of yourself for just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping that it will stick.

  124. “Arguing with Liberals is like kicking a dead horse and then shooting it again. Gays argue they are born gay but yet, how can that be when Libs don’t recognize a fetus as human or alive but yet can know it’s born gay. ”

    I would love to debate you. But you have not yet presented a single fact to substantiate you initial claim.

    Can you tell us which chargeable offenses constitute, by your definition, atrocities? You got it? Or not?

    Can you tell us how many chargeable offenses/atrocities have been committed? Or not?

    Can you tell us how many of those chargeable offenses/atrocities have been committed by illegal aliens? Or not.

    You got any facts? Or are you just faking it?

  125. “Why don’t you donate 15% or 20% of your salarie or all Liberals salaries to improve conditions. Texas can’t afford it anymore.”

    Baloney. Texas does even have individual or corporate income taxes.

    I don’t doubt that immigration is a problem. But it is a complex problem. It will not be solved by fear mongering smearing the many with the crimes of the very few – my goodness ICE detaining and deporting fewer than 3700 felons in three years. That is a serious problem. But it is nothing like the fear monger nonsense you have been spouting.

  126. “Argue with hand, I’m done kicking a dead horse and having to shoot it over and over. Bye Felicia.”

    You have not put up an argument yet.

    I would love to debate you. But you have not give us one fact to substantiate the silly fear mongering nonsense you started with.

  127. “People must enter the country legally, with the proper papers–no more excuses.”

    I agree. In today’s world we have to control our borders. I can’t imagine why that would be a mater of debate.

    However, controlling our borders presents difficult problems. And it matters how we do it. We ought to have discussion about what techniques we use to control access to the country.

    We may be a nation of immigrants. But the land and resources are not limitless. Maintaining reasonable living standards for those who are here means making tough decisions about how we control the borders, who we let in, and how we deal with those who break line to come in illegally.

    These are complex difficult questions. But it does not help spout off nonsense that has no basis in fact..

  128. “Arguing with Liberals is like kicking a dead horse and then shooting it again. … Argue with hand, I’m done kicking a dead horse and having to shoot it over and over. Bye Felicia. ”

    Let me give you a clue. You can’t argue with anyone at all if you don’t have any facts to support your opinions.

    All I have done today is ask relevant questions that would allow you to support your argument, correctly point out that you have not produced one single fact to support you fear mongering nonsense.

  129. bfm – here in Arizona and California we know that MS13 has brought in illegal aliens to run their criminal enterprises. When they are caught and go to prison, they run either the prison or a section of the prison.

  130. Lisa Nichols – because the Supreme Court will not require citizenship be proved for voter registration, it is going to put a potential 11.5 million Democratic voters on the rolls. They are also trying to clear out the prisons so they can vote, too.

  131. ” here in Arizona and California we know that MS13 has brought in illegal aliens to run their criminal enterprises. When they are caught and go to prison, they run either the prison or a section of the prison.”

    So what is the answer to that?

    It seems to me that one approach to a small part of the problem would be to empty the prisons of the non violent offenders who can likely be managed better in other types of programs.

    That way the limited resources of prisons and staff can concentrate on the population that poses a serious problem. When prisons are over populated the way they are in California I doubt it makes much difference who is behind bars. Some group, and I don’t mean prison staff, is going to run the joint.

    It seems insane to me to think we can jam any offender in to prison for years, cut staff and have everyone play nice.

    I think there is pretty good evidence that we would save money and have a much better chance of turning them into productive citizens by putting them in programs instead of behind bars.

    I will admit it. I have absolutely no moral stake in this. What I care about is the quickest most cost effective road for an offender to become a productive citizen. And that path usually, for most offenders does not lead behind bars. Of course there are some who will be violent – what ever approach we try. We need to save the prisons, our funds and staff to control those prisoners.

  132. bfm – Bernie Madoff is a non-violent offender. What do you think is an appropriate punishment?

  133. “Bernie Madoff is a non-violent offender. What do you think is an appropriate punishment?”

    Five hundred years in prison. Next question.

  134. “Bernie Madoff is a non-violent offender. What do you think is an appropriate punishment?”

    Maybe you would rather turn him over to that part of the prison managed by MS-13, or the Crips?

  135. bfm – you wanted the non-violent offenders let go. Now you change your mind with Bernie Madoff. Ya can’t have it both ways,

  136. “you wanted the non-violent offenders let go. Now you change your mind with Bernie Madoff. Ya can’t have it both ways,”

    Actually I was imprecise and I appreciate you for helping me clarify.

    Many, perhaps most, non violent offenders, but not all, probably would do better for them selves and for society be being released from prison. Social policy ain’t logic – there are exceptions.

  137. The issue of “sanctuary cities” will likely receive more attention in the wake of the recent murder of the San Francisco woman. The alleged killer had been deported 5 times, and had seven felony convictions in the U.S.
    My understanding is that Immigration, and these sanctuary cities, are inconsistently and ineffectively passing the ball back and forth, or dropping the ball. It seems that local nonenforcement is the bigger part of the problem.
    A good test of the commitment of these sanctuary cities would be to widely advertise their open door policy, then provide free transportation to these destinations for the illegals.

  138. Progressive logic:
    This can’t be true because St. Hillary would never do anything bad or self-serving like this. And besides, she just has to be our next President. Just, because. So this can’t be true. And even if it is, it doesn’t matter. It just can’t matter. Just, because.

  139. We are on on cock-eyed course when we have “sanctuary cities” where federal law doesn’t apply, and other cities and states where federal drug laws do not apply. I have no objection to honest medical marijuana, but the whoop-dee-do over just selling it to anyone is a bit much. How long before we have little groups everywhere deciding to ignore federal law? And why do the feds do little about it?

    If we want federal law changed, get a bi-partisan group in Congress to do so and stop letting the Executive branch, even the Judicial branch, decide for us. Maybe it is just me.

  140. Aridog…….Nebraska is suing Colorado over the very issue you mentioned. As far as I know, the federal marijuana laws are still on the books, but DOJ has decided not to enforce those laws where 4? States and D.C. have legalized recreational pot.
    Roseen v. Idaho has been covered in this column….Idaho’s reaction to legalized pot in Washington State (and now Oregon; both border Idaho) is to jerk around those states’ drivers with pretext traffic stops.
    Mr. Roseen was ambushed immediately after crossing into Idaho and “detained” for hours while they searched his vehicle.
    I bypass Idaho after my own 2 pretext stops there (Washington license plate) within 25 miles of entering Idaho last year. I had not been pulled over in 35 years_ and I’m hung up twice playing 20 questions and having a K-9 search my car after a bogus “alert”.
    These lawsuits may or may not be resolved in our lifetime….they seem to be moving at a snell’s pace.
    In the meantime, Idaho continues with their general fishing expedition, targeting motorists from the ” wrong” state.

  141. Rick Arllen – the only legitimate argument for Hillary being President is that she has a vagina it is time a vagina was in charge of the White House.

  142. The real name for what is happening when cities & states ignore federal law, voted in to effect by representatives of those same states, without response: it is Anarchy

    Are we sure we’re on the road we want?

  143. Aridog……In Washington State, recreational pot was voted in by initiative. I think the other 3 states and D.C. also passed initiatives, or referendums.
    The “sanctuary cities” are mostly Democratic and liberal. The murder of the San Francisco woman last week, by an illegal with 7 prior felony convictions and 5 prior deportations, has stirred a debate about the wisdom of blanket protection/sanctuary for all illegals.
    The alleged killer in the SF case was quoted as saying he choose to “settle” ,in San Francisco specifically because it was a sanctuary city.

  144. The very act of various cities enacting local ordnances, contrary to settled federal law, by parochial consensus is Anarchy. They are too lazy to go to Congress and ask for changes, so they like the Lilliputians they are, take the cowardly route…which has not actually standing in law. Let them explain it to the Steinle family. A lovely dead girl due to “sanctuary”… how nice.

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