In Missouri, there is a deeply unsettling crime involving two boys, aged 13 and 14, where Tanya Chamberlain, 43, was brutally stabbed in the face, neck, chest and hands. After killing her, the two teens went on a joyride with her dead body propped up in the front seat. The case again raises the question of when minors should be be tried as adults in our country.
Chamberlain was vacuuming out her car when the boys attacked. A surveillance video shows the eighth-graders exiting Quick Clean Car Wash wearing distinct hoodies. However, due to the time change on November 1st, the culprits got a break. The change to daylight saving time resulted in the video re-booting and by that time the car was gone. However, the police insist that they caught the teenagers in the victim’s car and found her body propped up in the front seat with her feet on the dashboard. Police spotted the car swerving and thought it was a drunk driver. The boys then fled the car and the police lost them. They recovered the bloody pocket knife.
The boys showed up for school the day in the eighth grade after Chamberlain’s death and a fellow classmate’s mother recognized the sweatshirts, which they wore at both the murder and the next day to school. Another mother told police that they had come by her house wearing the same sweatshirts.
In perhaps the world’s most understated response, Scott Thomason (presumably a neighbor) was quoted as saying, “I thought it was very unfortunate. It’s kind of shocking how two eighth-graders could do something like that.” Unfortunate and “kind of shocking” does not quite capture the response of most people to two teenagers randomly stabbing a woman to death and then taking her dead body on a joy ride in her car.
Not only do the police have the clothing and presumably of forensic evidence, but they say that the teens made incriminating statements during police interviews that only someone involved in the crime would know, according to reports.
Here is the heart of the standard in the Missouri code, which these teenagers appear to satisfy:
Certification of juvenile for trial as adult–procedure–mandatory hearing, certain offenses–misrepresentation of age, effect.
211.071. 1. If a petition alleges that a child between the ages of twelve and seventeen has committed an offense which would be considered a felony if committed by an adult, the court may, upon its own motion or upon motion by the juvenile officer, the child or the child’s custodian, order a hearing and may, in its discretion, dismiss the petition and such child may be transferred to the court of general jurisdiction and prosecuted under the general law; except that if a petition alleges that any child has committed an offense which would be considered first degree murder under section 565.020, second degree murder under section 565.021, first degree assault under section 565.050, forcible rape under section 566.030 as it existed prior to August 28, 2013, rape in the first degree under section 566.030, forcible sodomy under section 566.060 as it existed prior to August 28, 2013, sodomy in the first degree under section 566.060, first degree robbery under section 569.020, or distribution of drugs under section 195.211, or has committed two or more prior unrelated offenses which would be felonies if committed by an adult, the court shall order a hearing, and may in its discretion, dismiss the petition and transfer the child to a court of general jurisdiction for prosecution under the general law.
What do you think? Should they be tried as adults?
The crime and the presumed perps are so horrific that trying them as adults is the right thing to do. They obviously thought that since they were juveniles that they would get off with a few years. It is time to disabuse them of their ignorance and keep them in prison until they are too old and infirm to be a danger when they get out. Fifty years as a minimum would be about right.
I believe that, if say a hundred concert goers had concealed carry permits and were trained in the use of firearms at the concert in Paris the number of casualties would have been one tenth. How did the killers get the guns into the concert anyway? Does anybody know?
Well, we can either ban knives or give people permission to carry guns on their person. Now I know that some of you are going to say what’s she going to do draw the gun when their in the car, no just the thought that she might have a gun should deter the car jacking. Sense it is allowed to carry a loaded gun in your car in Florida the amount of car jackings have dwindled down to almost none
Who are and where are the parents?
…and the public is afraid this evil…
The problem with trying them as minors is that the designation limits the available punishment.
If you could sentence them to 50 years without parole as a minor, then fine.
But that is not the case, and the public is fries this evil will be returned to their city in 4 short years.
Depraved people like this, so horribly antisocial at just 8th grade, are unlikely to be “rehabilitated”, if this is even possible where such psychopathy is present.
They should be housed for decades, until it can be determined they no longer represent a threat.
Or bring back frontal lobotomies.
Another straw in the wind bowing towards the future.
Sagax, The presumption of innocence is a constitutional right. However, we are free to opine. The presumption of innocence is what is required in court, not in the court of public opinion. That’s where the 1st Amendment is relevant. However, we were asked if these juveniles should be certified and tried as adults. The certification process is not about guilt or innocence. It is simply the determination of the venue for the trial, juvenile or adult court. In Missouri, juvenile trials are bench trials. There is no jury.
Regarding the incarceration of a juvenile that is certified and tried as an adult. If convicted, the juvenile is assigned to a juvenile correctional facility until he/she is 18, then transferred to an adult prison.
Very little trace of the presumption of innocence either in the OP or many of the comments.
They should be tried as adults and executed. It’s the only way to guarantee they won’t get out and murder again. Rehabilitation of this type of criminal mindset, so obvious at their age, is unlikely to impossible.
I was a juvenile probation officer in Missouri. The certification process is controlled by the chief juvenile officer in each jurisdiction. They are the key person in the process. I worked under 3 different juvenile officers. Many are attorneys, but that is not a requirement, or it wasn’t back in the 70’s. Most juvenile courts have in house psychologists, or shrinks under contract, who evaluate the juvenile and then give a recommendation to the juvenile officer. They are often bleeding hearts who tend to be against certification. The other factor is the press. I had a couple kids assigned to my caseload that were certified. One was a child rapist, the other a murderer.
In this case, I see certification being strongly considered. However, I would like more information. In violent crimes like this, you often have a situation where one is a stone cold killer and the other just a horrible follower. Maybe one, probably the 13 year old, doesn’t need to be certified as an adult. The final factor is the press. The more press, the more likely a juvenile will be certified. That’s just the simple reality.
Ninian wrote,
“I am not a fan of “make it up as we go along”. If the juvenile system does not address the concerns of the public, it needs to be fixed.”
I think you hit the nail right on the head. In their extremes both adhering to established laws and judicial structures and designing the responses on a case by case basis are inherently dangerous to the fabric of a society. On the one hand we must have laws that apply to all equally but in fact rarely do. On the other hand the judicial system must be allowed to design a punishment that accurately fits the crime.
It seems that with the number of ‘children’ committing heinous crimes there should be a system designed to address young monsters. Perhaps they could be housed in a psychiatric ward for a determined length of time and used through observation to help understand how creatures like this come to be. There is a strong argument for keeping them out of circulation for their lifetime. One has to ask oneself how can a jail sentence fix the mess that lies between the ears of people like this, regardless of their age. Murder should be responded to with an eye for an eye approach, whether it be the actual life via the death sentence or by spending it locked up for the life of the murderer.
What Josseph Jones said.
Dealing with heinous acts of individual criminals is secondary to stopping the use of our tax dollars to kill , maim, rape, torture, plunder, and displace millions of people around the world and then glorify those acts so that young men like these view those acts as acceptable behavior.
I fail to understand why Missouri would treat a minor differently than say a carpenter or electrician. There must be something which disturbs the mind when one works in a coal mine. I would prefer a salt mine myself.
I think you need to analyse the purpose of the law as it pertains to juveniles and the crimes they are alleged to have committed. Are we talking 100 years sentence for a guilty verdict for a crime like this or are we talking about rehabilitation?
In really serious crimes, such as first degree murder, and such macabre circumstances, can society ever safely grant the guilty their freedom after a given tariff has been served?
Is it appropriate to incarcerate children with adults? Why can’t a child be handled in juvenile circumstances and transferred to the adult system when of age?
What is the effect of treating children as adults in the penal system? Does it make them more manageable?
If juveniles are treated more “leniently” for serious crimes this is clearly wrong and there is something wrong with the system. The suggestion that they should be treated as adults implies greater punity for this option. You can’t have double standards in justice.
If they are children they ARE children and tinkering with the system to try them as adults with discredit the legal system.
They are currently innocent children until proven guilty. If they are sentenced they are still children. Sentencing tariffs should mirror thise of adults. But when they become adults they should be transferred to the adult penal system.
I am not a fan of “make it up as we go along”. If the juvenile system does not address the concerns of the public, it needs to be fixed.
I do hope they try them as adults and they get the maximum sentence, This is one where piling on of charges seems right.
I’m think they should be tried as adults. The cruel, vicious and depraved nature of the crime supports such a determination.
We may speculate what these minors motives were. A trained Doctor may even develop an accurate diagnosis as to the mental state of these murderous assailants. The fact is they committed a felony murder while they were minors. They are not yet adults and should not be tried as adults. I am not saying release them with a slap on the wrist, but states must not continue to treat minors as adult defendants. Their is a much greater chance to change the mindset and outcome of a minor with proper treatment than there is with most adults. States need to develop programs to deal with these minors who commit major crimes, not just give up on them and incarcerate them for life without proper medical treatment and monitoring. Perhaps one or both of these minors will require lifelong imprisonment do to there mindset, but at least let medical professionals have a major input in those decisions.
I think Americans learn to act this way by imitating guardians of truth and justice like Bush Jr. and Obama (awarded the world’s most prestigious Nobel Peace Prize), while killing about 1-2m innocents world wide. Don’t you realize that their hypocrisy is very transparent and easily found with a few keyboard clicks?
I feel for this deceased woman’s family. The US military/CIA admits (see Edward Snoden’s docs) we killed 66k innocent civilians in Iraq (actual number more likely 10x that or more).
That line from Eric Qualan (John Lithgow) in the movie Cliffhangar is perfect: He shoots and kills his girlfriend point blank, then says, “Kill a dozen, and you’re a mass murderer. Kill thousands, and you’re a conqueror.”
My best friend’s 44 year old HS friend recently left the military and became another suicide victim. I am fully convinced, most of these ex-military suicide victims thought their service was noble (the description with which many Americans agree), then they go over there, participate in the carnage, and no matter how many commercials they see saying “thanks,” they know they did Satan’s work, they can not stand the pain of the hypocrisy, and so they kill themselves.
If this describes someone reading this: ask for forgiveness from God, join the ranks of those demanding Bush and Obama be sent to rot in prison (or worse, after they are convicted of treason and abetting the enemy), and live a life of sacrifice to atone for your evil sins.
You were conned. Also, for you non-military, stop thanking these people for spreading death and misery world wide. WW3 really is not as much fun as your video games make it seem.