I have long been a critic of military tribunals as constitutionally dubious and practically ineffectual institutions. The tribunals at Guantanamo Bay have resulted in few actual trials and undermined the standing of the United States as a nation committed to the rule of law. The principle rationale cited by former officials in defense of Gitmo has been that it would not be used to try citizens. Now in a deeply disturbing interview, GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump has stated that he might try citizens at Gitmo — maintaining a shadow court system for stripping citizens of basic rights of due process just a few miles off the United States shore.
As an attorney who has long practiced in the national security field (including terrorism cases), the tribunal system has never made a great deal of sense to me. Federal courts have long tried terrorists and the government has a high success rate in such cases. The creation of a faux court system only gives our enemies a rallying cry and fuels those who to call us hypocrites.
Those concerns are magnified by Trump’s dismissal of any distinction between citizens and non-citizens in the use of such tribunals. In an interview with the Miami Herald on Thursday, Trump was asked if he would use the tribunals against U.S. citizens. Trump responded: “Well, I know that they want to try them in our regular court systems, and I don’t like that at all. I don’t like that at all. I would say they could be tried there, that would be fine.”
That may be fine in Trump’s view but it would also be unconstitutional. Presidents are not allowed to create alternative court systems for denying citizens of core rights at their discretion. Such a Caesar-like role runs against the very grain of the American constitutional system. The statement by Trump reflects a disconcerting lack of faith in our court system and a fundamental misunderstanding of the limits placed upon presidents in our constitutional system.
What do you think?
@mikepouraryan
Just spent last Saturday with a bunch of Filipinos – after supper we all sat around and the elders told us stories. The men (now in their late 70s) all joined the US Navy to become citizens and their wives all went to nursing school in Chicago. They miss the Philippines and go back to see family as often as they can but do not want to live there as it is a 3rd world country. They are very happy with Duarte as are their relatives – they say crime has decreased and prostitution of young girls is being targeted as well as drug dealers.
In 3rd world countries sometimes a dictator is their only way forward – look at Singapore – it is one of the hottest economies in Asia now. They have 0 tolerance for drugs and other lesser violations. It is one of the safest places on earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Tuong_Nguyen
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/27/us/teen-ager-caned-in-singapore-tells-of-the-blood-and-the-scars.html
“Gitmo” is a word on the sign by the cashier in a store in upstate NY. The sign sits in a bowl of candy bars. In the legal sphere it means that you get more time in prison.
@IndyBob
We have a multi tiered justice system. Monies being leached off taxpayers as people are warehoused in jails/prisons awaiting their day in court. A war on the poor. Public defenders are overloaded and underfunded. Debtors courts have returned. Civil forfeiture. It’s totally frightening.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/10/st-louis-civil-rights-lawsuit-debtors-prisons-african-americans
http://digg.com/video/john-oliver-tells-us-how-the-police-can-legally-take-your-property
Whatever happened to our right of due process. It scares me to think that the constitution might be in the rear view mirror.
A visit to the dentists office will fix this in a jiffy. Makes water boarding boring. If doctors & lawyers are included, then I’m for it. Actor Dustin Hoffman visits the dentist.
https://youtu.be/CceQISThDYQ
@Tin
I don’t think that is what he was talking about, but if it was, he can tell us his reasons. In the meantime, the professional cry babies will be running around in a panic with their hands in the air, and we will see a commercial with a 6 year old girl crying to her mommy, “But I don’t want to be tried by a military tribunal, Mommy! I’m scared!”
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
@Mikepour
Oh waaaah! Somebody called somebody a name! Waaaah! Mommmmmee! Waaah! It seems like half the political news lately is frightened little wussies whining about scared they are about what somebody said.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Moreover, I’m sure that being in NYC on 9-11-2001 made an indelible impression on Trump, and understandably forms the basis for his view that terrorists and enemy combatants, whether citizens or not, are at war with us, and should be tried in military courts which are designed to try prisoners of war.
Trump to constitutional scholars:
‘Equal treatment under the law’ and ‘due process’ are for pussies.
The idea of military tribunals for citizens doesn’t bother me. Citizenship doesn’t mean as much as it used to. We could certainly create a “faux court system,” as JT calls it, since we have a “faux citizens,” otherwise known as the “undocumented,” who have virtually all the rights and privileges of citizenship. And as far as what our enemies think of us, who cares, they’re going to hate us no matter what. And I have very little faith in the court system. For most people, you get as much justice as you can afford, and SCOTUS has been totally politicized for as long as I can remember.
Some may agree with what Duarte is doing fine–I don’t as underscored with this: http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/10/opinions/philippine-president-opinion-ghitis/index.html
“Paradox of Civilization”
I suspect, given your elaboration, that the only word you understand of your idea is the word ‘of.’
@Mikepour
I think Duterte is on the right track. There is something I call the Paradox of Civilization, where a society reaches the point where any additional efforts at becoming more civilized backfire, and things become less civilized. And where less-civilized methods result in more civilized behavior. (I invented this idea!)
For example, our war on drugs. Our efforts to provide trials, and counseling, and prison terms, and spend billions of dollars to corral the criminals has simply resulted in less civilization. Parts of some of our cities are not places where even the cops feel safe. Plus, we lose about 24,000 people per year to drug overdoses.
Our courts will never keep up, and if we decriminalize the whole shebang, then we will have junkies laying around everywhere. Unless we want to enslave the rest of society to work for the junkies and provide them with the basics of life like homes, and utilities, and food and furniture, internet connections, cable TV, cars etc. If we go that route, more of the workers are simply going to say “screw it!”, “why work when I can live an OK life on the dole?” Plus, we destroy our ability to compete with other nations, because we will have so much social cost built in, with tons of non-working junkies.
This is where Duterte was. Sooo, he said to the cops, “Start shooting drug dealers. Just kill them!” Dang if about 2,000 or so get shot, and over 60,000 decide to come in and surrender to the police! I am curious how this will play out.
IMHO, Duterte’s less civilized method of dealing with it would work here, also. I bet by the first couple of thousand dead pushers, you would see the idea creep in that the drug business is not where a smart person wants to be. But even if we had to kill more, there’s like a built in cost to the civilized approach, including 24,000 OD deaths, thousands of wasted lives, millions in prison, etc. etc. I think just shooting drug dealers would end that. Either way you go you are going to have a bunch of dead people. I think Duterte’s way starts to end that.
But it will never be done under our current legal system. Too many people make their living off the status quo.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
@HopeH
Still not sure that was was what he meant. They were talking in the context of Gitmo. I am sure Trump will clear it up in the morning. If he does want to try some citizens there, he will either be able to support his reasons, or not. In the meantime, I am not in “freak-out” mode because I don’t think he is a big bad scary person at all, like the Left and the press portray him.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
guess it depends where you want to start, how far back you want to go, or the state of the justice system today –
I didn’t watch the interview or read other than what what you posted here – but this is Trump so he says stuff and then talks to some guy who knows how things work according to the Constitution.
So I don’t think he would do what Obama has done with something like NDAA, but with all the rhetoric and the part Trump likes to play which is keep um guessing I can see how people would worry.
but I kinda think he’s talking about people who immigrate to the US – by want or need and then go rogue with the terrorism.
Here’s the thing:
Trump wants to put the brakes on and Hillary wants to sell the farm to big corporations.
We’re back to two Americas and i would really like you to address the topic of Secession – cause that is a topic that’s coming.
.
Something was missed or ignored.
A citizen is to be tried in court (has to be on sovereign territory.)
Or
A citizen is to be killed by a drone (essentially anywhere but US territory…England and others might object)
A military tribunal is a good middle ground…but then isn’t the drone decision essentially a military tribunal of sorts? Not sure if all weaponized drones used to kill citizens belong to military or some to CIA.
Squeeky
No. You are wrong. He said it would be ok to try American citizens at Gitmo. Watch the attached video.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/donald-trump/article95144337.html
Thank you for this sir–the problem is that the Constitution does not seem to matter to Mr. Trump–nor simple facts. Mr. Ryan and others (including Mr. Cotton) who say they are going to be a Bulwark against him, will have a tough time making their case in the courts–I made it clear to him personally that he scares me–especially as I see what is happening in Turkey (that you have noted in your write-ups) and now with the President of the Philippines (Dirty Duarte) and how he’s living up to his vow to “shoot first…ask later…”. What is so ironic is how he claims about how HIllary is going to abolish the 2nd Amendment (which anyone with a decent knowledge knows to be false…) and how he talks about “many people” etc…..and he tolerating the horrible rhetoric at his rallies show an unfortunate disdain for the very thing that is at the core fabric of America…and all have to take note of what Chemi Shalev of Haaretz Wrote (some will dismiss it as “liberal” bias…) but anyone who remembers the horrible night the brave soul who dared to think different..and how his successor has done everything to destroy the peace process (while playing the world for a fool)….needs to take note and take note NOW: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u-s-election-2016/1.736536
I suspect that he is not talking about citizens, but non-citizens.
The Miami Herald says: