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Was The Meeting Between Donald Trump Jr. and The Russian Lawyer Really “Treason” or The “Smoking Gun” of Collusion?

UnknownRichard Painter, an ethics lawyer under former President George W. Bush, has declared that the meeting of Donald Trump Jr., with a Russian lawyer who claimed to have compromising information on Hillary Clinton during the campaign, “borders on treason.”  Others have said that the disclosure could be the long sought after “smoking gun” on collusion and evidence of criminal conduct.  I am afraid that I have to continue my record as something of a “buzz kill” on these stories.  There is not a clear criminal act in such a meeting based on the information that we have.  Moreover, it is not necessarily unprecedented.

Painter declared on MSNBC that

“This was an effort to get opposition research on an opponent in an American political campaign from the Russians, who were known to be engaged in spying inside the United States. We do not get our opposition research from spies, we do not collaborate with Russian spies, unless we want to be accused of treason.  . . .  If this story is true, we’d have one of them if not both of them in custody by now, and we’d be asking them a lot of questions. This is unacceptable. This borders on treason, if it is not itself treason.”

I have to respectfully disagree with Painter. I tend to view these things through the lens of a criminal defense attorney and I do not see how either Trump Jr. or Natalia Veselnitskaya could be put into “custody” for such a meeting.  There is no crime in listening to people who say that they have incriminating information on a political opponent, even a foreigner.  Article III defines treason as “levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”  To say that this type of meeting even borders on treason is quite a departure from the language and cases governing that crime.

Moreover, it is hardly shocking to see a willingness to gather dirt during that election.  Hillary Clinton was repeatedly criticized for her close association with figures like David Brock who was denounced even by John Podesta as sleazy and disreputable.   There was also Sidney Blumenthal who was regularly denounced for spreading rumors and dirt against anyone threatening Clinton.

There also is the allegations surrounding who funded a former British spy to come up with the dossier against Trump, which is now viewed as discredited.

Once again, experts are pulling out the Logan Act to suggest a possible crime.  Norm Eisen, a former chief White House ethics attorney, referenced the law even though it has only been enforce once and it widely viewed as unconstitutional, as we have previously discussed. Vermont Law Professor Jennifer Taub suggests that it could be charged as a conspiracy to defraud the United States.  So listening to someone who claims to have evidence that a federal crime by your competitors is now an effort to defraud under 18 U.S.C. 371? I am highly skeptical of the chances of such a claim and I have never seen the like of it.  Others have suggested that he might be charged with “violating federal criminal statutes prohibiting solicitation or acceptance of anything of value from a foreign national.”  Well, business people accept things of value for foreign officials all the time. It is called transnational business. Presumably, this is meant to suggest a criminal contribution to a campaign from a foreign national — ironically the very allegation raised by the Russian lawyer against Clinton as the purpose of the meeting.  That allegation is rather hard to square with the fact that campaign officials and candidates speak to foreign leaders and sources all the time on issues.  If notice of a possible crime or information is now deemed as thing of tangible value under federal campaign laws, the wide array of exchanges on behalf of campaign would be implicated. Indeed, major free speech and association issues would be raised.  Once again, this is a matter that is worthy of investigation. However, these possible criminal charges are radically over-extended on the facts that we currently have.

None of this excuses the slime machine that runs 24/7 in Washington.  People in the Beltway regularly traffic in dirt — it is the currency of our time.  It has been for some time.  Indeed, the Federalists and Jeffersonians actively and openly sought scandalous material to use against each other.

Trump Jr. said in a statement to the paper on Sunday that he had met with Natalia Veselnitskaya at the request of an acquaintance and denied that he received any information on Clinton.

“After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton,” he said. “Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information.”

“It became clear to me that this was the true agenda all along and that the claims of potentially helpful information were a pretext for the meeting,” Trump Jr. said.

Donald Trump Jr. said that the Russian lawyer contacted the office shorting after his father clinched the Republican presidential nomination to share information damaging to Clinton:

“I was asked to have a meeting by an acquaintance I knew from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant with an individual who I was told might have information helpful to the campaign. I was not told her name prior to the meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to attend, but told them nothing of the substance.

We had a meeting in June 2016. After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton.

Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information.”

Foreign funding of an election would be federal crime.

Trump Jr.  said that Veselnitskaya soon changed the subject and began discussing the adoption of Russian children and moved the conversation towards the Magnitsky Act — a 2012 bill that blocks certain Russian officials’ entrance to the U.S. and their use of the U.S. banking system:

“It became clear to me that this was the true agenda all along and that the claims of potentially helpful information were a pretext for the meeting. I interrupted and advised her that my father was not an elected official, but rather a private citizen, and that her comments and concerns were better addressed if and when he held public office. The meeting lasted approximately 20 to 30 minutes. As it ended, my acquaintance apologized for taking up our time. That was the end of it and there was no further contact or follow-up of any kind.”

Quite frankly, most people in the Beltway look at that account and snicker that Trump Jr. was a fool to personally attend such a meeting.  Other campaigns would have used surrogates like Brock but they would have gotten the information.

The one area of legal concern raised by this account is again the failure of various Trump family members and associates from listing foreign contacts on federal forms, including the SF-86.  I have had to fill out that form regularly since the Reagan Administration and listed even brief meetings with foreign academics at conferences.  It is hard to see how such meetings would not be listed.

Unless there is more (and this is worthy of investigation), I see nothing close to treason or a crime in this account.  That obviously does not fit with the breathless accounts given the story but the criminal code is not a code of political etiquette.

305 thoughts on “Was The Meeting Between Donald Trump Jr. and The Russian Lawyer Really “Treason” or The “Smoking Gun” of Collusion?”

  1. The political establishment, in this country, continues to maintain a Cold War mentality. The Russia story is always guilt by association. There is nothing substantive about any of these stories. They are willing to substitute suspicion for proof in this witch hunt.

  2. I am just not seeing any “treason” or “smoking gun” here. Another overwrought Fake News piece by the anti-Trumpers. And who the f**k is Richard Painter that I should give his opinion on anything a minute of my time???

    But, if one is on a Witch Hunt, then it doesn’t take much to get you all excited. Look, a mole on her back! Oh My!, Goodman Smith’s outhouse fell over in a windstorm! Quelle Horreur! Chastity Jones is with child, and she swears she has never lain with a swain!

    That kind of stuff sends the Frankly’s and L Silvers into giddy fits of mindless blather. Hmmm, I wonder if that in itself could be a sign of witchcraft???

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

    1. “Fake News” ????? Painter is offering his Professional opinion. You may not agree with him but that does not make his professional opinion”FAKE” There is a big difference between opinion and reporting news/facts.

      1. littlewitch – what is Painter’s profession that allows him to give a profession opinion?

      2. Painter offers his “professional opinion” in the same fashion that a call girl offers her “professional services.” I read the Legal Insurrection link provided by DDS, and it is clear that Painter is simply a left wing whore, who will say anything to please the people paying him, or providing him airtime.

        As far as “There is a big difference between opinion and reporting news/facts” – – – uh, where have you been for the last year or so??? Opinions are being reported as facts. Duh!

        Squeeky Fromm
        Girl Reporter

        1. OK, Dum Dum: Chump, Jr. met with Russians and didn’t disclose it. Not an opinion, just a fact. What about all of Flynn’s meetings that he failed to disclose? Opinion or fact. Or, maybe as a fellow, dumb bottle blonde said “alternative facts”?

          1. You never did answer my question about fake hair, no self-esteem, and how you think that what you said to me, applies to black women with all their hair weave. You didn’t think I forgot that, did you???

            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter

        2. “Painter offers his “professional opinion” in the same fashion that a call girl offers her “professional services.””

          Once again Squeeky hits the nail on the head. The same can be said about all those psychiatrists that violated their own medical ethics by making a diagnosis of Trump without ever seeing him.

      3. There are lots of people on this blog who reflexively bleat “fake news!” to every item that doesn’t fit their preferred narrative. The distinction you note, obvious to you and to me, is not a meaningful one for some of them.

    2. Hey, I made Squeeky’s $%#@ list! I’m so flattered! is there a cash award or medal that goes along with this prestigious honor or should I just wait for another blast of gassy malodor waft my way?

      1. You don’t need the “$%#@” stuff just to say, “Hey, I made Squeeky’s “stupid people” list.” The Word Press filter doesn’t grab words like “stupid” to filter out. Only pretty much the “F” word. Maybe just the “S” word, too, unless it has “bull” attached to it.

        I am not for sure all the words it filters, but I can assure you “stupid” is not on the list. Which, if it was, then you couldn’t read this comment! And if it is, then I can get away with being wrong and nobody will ever know!

        Win-win for me!!!

        Squeeky Fromm
        Girl Reporter

  3. I have decided that civics is no longer taught at any level in the US. Some states, like Arizona, require a semester of it to graduate, but it is clear that several commentators have not read the Constitution. It doesn’t qualify as treason and it doesn’t qualify as collusion.

  4. My, Aren’t the Trumpsters cranky about little trophy hunting spoiled brat Donnie Junior’s troubles.

  5. The spam filter has bottled up my links, so I’ll summarize. Serious scholars are cautious about lending their name to matters extraneous to their book. In Painter’s case, he’s a corporate law maven.
    For whatever reason, Harriet Miers in 2005 thought him useful as a subordinate to make ethics rulings, a position he held for roughly 18 months.

    He’s made repeated interventions in the public square over a half-dozen years (defending one of Barack Obama’s tainted judicial nominees and besmirching the man’s opponents, making the case for another Obama nominee by attempting to peddle the notion that George W. Bush would have nominated that person (a contention belied by other Bush staff), insisting the new Attorney-General must resign less than six weeks after the man had taken office, suing the President over his business interests, and now making absurd claims about a brief meeting between DJT Jr and a Russian citizen). None of these public interventions were at all compelled by circumstance. When you volunteer a half-dozen times to be a press agent for the political opposition, your Republican voter registration is properly seen as a pose.

  6. Pingback: Stop taking Richard Painter seriously given history of outlandish statements and treason accusations

  7. Quite frankly, most people in the Beltway look at that account and snicker that Trump Jr.

    “Most people in the Beltway” are ordinary residents who have nothing to do with political Washington.

  8. Either making an ass of yourself is not detrimental to your career at the University of Minnesota law school or Richard Painter’s in such a lather over the Republican donor class Jebbie Arbusto! money bonfire that he doesn’t care anymore.

  9. Oh JT you are no fun! Would you please stop focusing on the evidence that is known and start emphasizing the evidence that we might find if only we keep digging.

  10. This fellow is associated with CREW, a silly organization that slices up members of Congress for rule violations (e.g defective campaign finance filings). Ignore the pink elephant in the middle of the room, chase the cockroaches around the edges of the room.

    He’s currently a participant in a lawsuit contra Trump because Trump hasn’t put his assets in a blind trust. He was insisting in op-ed contributions that the Attorney-General ‘needs to go’ when the man had only been in office for a few weeks. This guy is a #nevertrump diehard, not someone impartial expert. Why do you ‘respectfully’ disagree? Is that what you do when the scorpion stings?

  11. The Law of Holes does not apply to the Nothing-Burger Party (NBP). Please, oh please keep digging!

  13. JT poses the question as if it was one or the other for sure. Maybe it was not either one.

    (music– to the tune of Lawyers Guns and Money )

    Was it treason or collusion?
    I’m a desperate man!
    I talked to Millard Bradley.
    He was with the Russians too!

    Now I speak to no one that I did not know..
    Back when I was in high school. Before the winter snow.

  14. All Russians are “blacklisted”. Sorry Black Lives Matter. But that is the word they use at the FBI.

  15. Exactly due to what the media has done here we have some issues in the future. Number one. No person working for any political campaign can speak, or email, or write letters or otherwise communicate with any Russian. They cannot be on the same airplane or in the same room. They cannot go to the symphony in Washington DC because a Russian might be there in the crowd.

    How was I to know? She was with the Russians too?
    –Warren Zevon.

    1. It was just innocent talk. Try convincing your wife it was purely innocent when you were “just talking” to an old girlfriend because you’re still friends. Even in the extremely unlikely event you’re telling the truth do you expect her to believe you?

      1. Even in the extremely unlikely event you’re telling the truth do you expect her to believe you?

        That would depend on how rational her fear was. She may have some deep-seated insecurities or worse, she may be projecting her own infidelity.

      2. Even in the extremely unlikely event you’re telling the truth do you expect her to believe you?

        You’re outing yourself as a candidate for an episode of Cheaters. Normal adults are not. Never been an issue in my house or my brother’s, but my mother had two women in her circle of friends who had dated my father decades earlier, one a top drawer friend and the other a third drawer friend.

          1. Nope. Perfectly normal among people who’ve settled in the same town they grew up in, have l/t friends, and have manners and class.

  16. This smells like a Clinton operation snookering the not so bright Trump, Jr. Clinton is famous for using double agents to get dirt on their opponents.

    2. It’s funny how “treason” is always raised to circle the wagons. Davis, Lee, and Beauregard were traitors by definition, but we celebrate them while two-bit Junior meets a Russian lawyer for dirt to coat Clinton’s FBI-proof patina:

      http://image.nola.com/home/nola-media/width960/img/tpphotos/photo/2017/05/19/-fbb05d640aafa67e.JPG

      If this weren’t the case, why has AG Sessions failed to provide the evidence against Clinton to the grand jury? Perhaps Clinton has as much on Trump, Sessions, and a host of other self-servants as they do on her?

      Enquiring minds.

      1. Do we take little Donnie’s word for it about the substance of the meeting? Why are we just now finding out about it and why did he fail to disclose it as required by law? If his daddy weren’t a chronic, habitual liar, maybe we’d take what he says at face value, but not under the circumstances.

        1. Good point, but this is just self-serving political banter and media aggrandizement, and I think that’s all Mr. Turley was pointing out by his post.

          If Sessions were worried about Clinton’s actions regarding her private server, he’d have sent it to the grand jury by now. He isn’t and he hasn’t or he didn’t get his indictment.

          Don’t perceive my opinion as anything but Trump is the worst president we’ve ever had only five months into his term. Nonetheless, if anything should have shaken your faith in Clinton, it was running the Clinton Global Initiative from the State Dept., and “We came, we saw, he died.” [Begin Souza’s Stars and Stripes Forever.] Those are the actions of a similar deplorable, as much so as the actions of the idiot and his children who are now running the country.

          Lest we forget: karma’s a bitch.

        2. The Trump immediate go-to position is lying. That’s why the meeting was first described as focused on “adoptions”.

      2. You say “Enquiring minds,” I say “conspiracy nuts.”

        A rose by any other name, dude.

    3. You should stick to your standards, “LOL” or “ham and eggers” and appear obtuse rather than stupid.

  17. I agree with Prof. Turley’s take: Meeting with a Russian that says they have evidence of collusion between the DNC/the Clinton campaign isn’t evidence of collusion with Russia, it’s simply being willing to accept criminal (and certainly politically useful) information. This is akin to saying cops and prosecutors are colluding with criminals when they collect information from informants about crime. It would be altogether different if the Trump campaign solicited Russians to collect such information, but simply being willing to receive such information isn’t even close to collusion and is light years away from treason.

  18. The question here is what is Natalia Veselnitskaya’s connection to the Russian government itself. She has a connection to some powerful oligarchs so was she acting as a surrogate for Putin? Looking more and more like there’s collusion here. As they say, Golden showers bring Mayday flowers.

  19. The Deep State will do anything to avenge Hillary Clinton’s loss:

    * Many powerful foreign autocrats were depending upon POTUS Hillary for arms deals in return for money thrown her way, as per her corrupt term as Secretary of State whereby the Clinton Foundation cashed in with “donations” (i.e. bribes) from the Saudis, etc. for sales of military death-kits.

    * Many corporate fascists in the US & world-wide were counting on POTUS Hillary for a big Return-on-Investment (ROI) in exchange for cash “donations” (i.e. bribes) from Monsanto, the Military Industrial Complex, Health-Insurance Vultures, the Corporate-Media conglomerates; etc. who were promised special favours.

    * Many of her DC-insiders in politics; lobby firms; and the corporate-media were promised big jobs– some had already bought/rented houses in expectation that POTUS Hillary would be crowned Queen. They were planning on huge 6+figure salaries.

    All of these dreams dashed by Trump’s win. Trump must be punished. Trump must be impeached via a coup d’état, if that’s what it takes– even if they destroy the United States of America to achieve their goals. Hell hath no fury like the Deep State-Oligarchy scorned. The neoliberal agenda must be shoved down our throats, despite the fact that the vast majority of people don’t want it– they’ve rejected it here in the USA & in Europe too.

    If anybody should be indicted for treason, it should be Hillary for Election Fraud; Pay2Play; EmailGate–etc. Comey has been found to have leaked emails containing classified information– but corporate-MSM will cover his crimes too– because they implicate Hillary, not Trump. They can fool all of us some of the time, some of us all of the time, but not all of us all of the time.

    1. Spoken like a true Bannon disciple! Your place is assured in the new Trump Party! MAGA!

      1. Ignorance is NOT Bliss. I voted for Bernie Sanders– NOT Trump, NOR Hillary–neither of whom are fit to be POTUS. But I’m NOT for a coup d’état. Hillbots who ignore the law are woefully ignorant of the consequences, as they also are of the facts regarding the Clintons’ vast corruption. Pitiful.

        Regarding the Election 2016, inform yourself, L Silver:–> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Ho8OrBzig

        1. I voted for Bernie too…in the primaries. But he wasn’t running in the general so you either voted for Trump, Clinton or threw your vote away on either Stein or Gary Johnson which would have been a de facto vote for Trump or Clinton. Also, linking to RT’s youtube page, tsk tsk. Your leanings make themselves clear.

        2. All right so you are not happy, you are just smart enough to realize your ignorance is a hindrance. Turn off Faux News and there might be help.

    2. There’s nothing Deep about this guy. He’s as stealthy as a steam calliope. He’s a Lifelong Republican ™.

    3. 1. Why hasn’t Chump gone after the Saudis, you know, the actual country where the 911 terrorists came from? What business deals does Chump have or potentially have pending in Saudi Arabia? Well, if we had his tax returns, we might have answers to these and other questions; 2. Hillary was pushing for universal health coverage, which would deep-six the Health Insurance Vultures. Hillary isn’t a hawk, and would not be in bed with the Military Industrial Complex. Which specific corporate-media conglomerates were promised favors, and what favors were promised? Some of what you argue doesn’t make sense, and as to the rest, if you don’t have proof, then shut up!; 3. You don’t think Chump’s political cronies, many of whom have no experience or qualifications for jobs, didn’t benefit?

      Chump didn’t win: he lost the popular vote and only took over our White House because of a quirk in election laws dating back to the days of slavery which people of all political stripes have argued for decades should have been done away with. The objections people have to Chump are based on his proven emotional immaturity and his insecurities that cause him to lash out at critics, his lack of respect for the dignity of the Presidency, his lack of knowledge of basic civics, his racism, his misogyny, using his totally unqualified handbag designer daughter as a surrogate, his fragile ego, and general inability to lead. These things have nothing to do with politics, but with his personal lack of qualification to serve as the leader of the free world. No one can fool you because you are already a fool.

      1. Natacha – you are seriously deluded. HRC was NOT pushing for single payer – remember during the 2008 primaries she kept pushing for a mandate which Obummer put in place.

        Woman is a total warhawk – just ask the people in Libya, Ukraine, Syria and Honduras. And the Russian re-set. No sane person wanted that woman in the WH. And yes, Trump won – we have the electoral system remember?? Biatch was too lazy to get out and campaign amongst the unwashed proles.

        How about your stupid party get rid of its’ superdelegates – a bunch of elitists overriding the voters will. Look at Cali – pharma jerk (s)elected and Kimbery Ellis threatened because she had the termerity to run.

        The Dims are despised by all indies.

        1. When it comes to war in the mideast, Trump appears to be every bit as hawkish as Clinton.

      2. “Hillary isn’t a hawk, and would not be in bed with the Military Industrial Complex”

        Obama was on the fence and Hillary pushed him into Libya. Just one of many dumb moves by Hillary. Hillary supported the Iraq war and early on made comments that were extremely hawkish. Your comment is rubbish.

        ” Hillary was pushing for universal health coverage, which would deep-six the Health Insurance Vultures.”

        Who do you think would have run the payment portion of Hillary’s plan? The same Vultures. Who handles the payments for Medicare? Some of the Vultures you say would not have existed.

        Trump won because he campaigned to win electoral votes. I am sure had the popular vote been the determining factor he would have changed the way he campaigned and won. The question now arises as to how many illegal voters voted for Hillary or Trump. Trump is willing to find out. Hillary isn’t. That tells one all they need to know.

    4. Gates will get his school privatization and corporatization, whichever party is in power.
      Unbelievable that an oligarch gets the Medal of Freedom, particularly one who has shown high visibility disdain for democracy and for the common goods people built to create opportunity.

      Gates should just pay his fair share of taxes (he lives in the state with the most regressive tax system in the nation) and stop his incursions into areas where he is a know-nothing.
      He’s like Trump and Christie only worse because he wasn’t even elected

    1. A Nothing Burger A day keeps the DNC from actually working. One mrore reason never to vote for the party that is loyal to a foreign ideology.

      However here’s yet another

      . info@justfacts.com Just Facts came out with an analysis of voter fraud claims Fractured Fiction. Just so this thread would have something worth reading.

              1. Better than what, not stating the obvious? Unless you’re looking to rack up frequent comment miles on the Turley blog, it was pointless.

                  1. The unanswered question is why did Donald,Jr. self incriminate?

                    Grab your crayon and write this down: Because the only crime committed in that disclosure exists in your imagination.

                    1. Maybe Don,Jr. blabbed because he knows Mueller knows the whole story.

                    2. Maybe Don,Jr. blabbed because he knows Mueller knows the whole story.

                      Using your logic, Lois Lerner didn’t blag because no one knows the full story. Yeah, makes perfect sense.

                1. Your alt right playbook has passed its shelf life date and is easily recognizable.Your racism also stinks to high heaven.

                  1. If I had to guess, you have been stuck in the “Overton Bubble” for most of your life. Therefore, merely saying bad things about widespread black misbehavior (for egs., Institutionalized Illegitimacy®) qualifies as racism.

                    You can read about the Overton Bubble on J H Kunstler’s blog today. I can not link it here because the name of his blog won’t pass the filters.

                    Squeeky Fromm
                    Girl Reporter

          2. frankly, You could beat your wife.

            Shall we call you a wife beater?

            Yes, because it “could be”.

      2. Based upon your rhetoric I doubt your accomplisments have equalled those of Trump’s children.

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