Warren Takes DNA Test Showing Distant Native American Heritage . . . Trump Denies Pledging One Million Dollars

Elizabeth_Warren,_official_portrait,_114th_Congress440px-Official_Portrait_of_President_Donald_TrumpSen. Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.) effectively called President Donald Trump a welcher after she took a DNA test as he demanded on national television on the promise that he would donate $1 million to her favorite charity.  While the test by a Stanford professor showed only that she was between 0.097 per cent and 0.156 per cent American Indian, it was still a DNA test.  Warren called on Trump to donate to the National Indigenous Women’s Resource Center.  President Trump however initially denied that he ever made the offer and then changed the offer retroactively to require his testing Warren.

Many of us have wondered why Warren did not simply take a DNA test after she was challenged on her long-standing claim of being part Cherokee.  Her alleged Indian status was noted by prior faculties, though as I have previously stated her credentials as an academic more than warranted her work on various prestigious law schools.  Former colleagues have reaffirmed the view that Warren was added to these faculties on the merits of her considerable academic record.  That academic career began with a debate scholarship at George Washington University.

If was not until this year that Warren publicly acknowledged a DNA test, but it was done not by one of the leading companies but by a single Stanford professor. Nevertheless, Stanford University Professor Carlos D. Bustamante is a respected academic in the field who has consulted on the national testing programs.

According to his analysis, Warren has a Native American ancestor from six to ten generations back.  If Warren’s great-great-great-grandmother were Native American, she would be 1/32 Native American but it could date back further to 10 generations — making her only 1/1,024 Native American.  Even a 1/32 heritage may not translate into what most people would view as being Native American,  However Cherokee Nation principal chief Bill John Baker is 1/32 Cherokee by blood.  Warren claims Cherokee and Delaware heritage.

Yet, it is the test that it is important issue for the quid pro quo offer.  During a July 5th campaign rally , Trump declared “I will give you a million dollars, to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you’re an Indian. I have a feeling she will say ‘no.’ ”  She didn’t.

 

Trump can certainly argue that as little as 1/1,024 heritage should not be the basis for calling yourself Native American to any degree, but, as Professor Bustamante concluded, she does have Native American blood.  The important thing, however, is not to deny the undeniable.

“Who cares?” he said. “I didn’t say that. You’d better read it again”:

ABC News

@ABC

Pres. Trump on Sen. Elizabeth Warren releasing results of DNA test: “Who cares?”

The results show “strong evidence” Warren had a Native American ancestor dating back several generations, The Boston Globe reported today. https://abcn.ws/2yDPztu 

Professor Bustamante declared to Warren that “The facts suggest that you absolutely have Native American ancestry in your pedigree”  while also noting that  “vast majority” of her ancestry is European.

Trump denies he owes Warren either an apology or money. In the meantime, Warren critics are citing the statement of Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. that ‘Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage . . . Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven.” Others have noted that current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America.

That still leaves the fact that she took a DNA test and a leading academic found Native American blood.

Should Trump pay up?

334 thoughts on “Warren Takes DNA Test Showing Distant Native American Heritage . . . Trump Denies Pledging One Million Dollars”

  1. Karen S — Regarding the Mexican genetic study: most important, all the indigenees in the contiguous USA and Latin America, save only the later arriving Athabaskans who never reached Latin America, are Amerindians by linguistic analysis and latterly by genetic analysis. The very first might have arrived around 16,000 years ago, not earlier. By around 13,000 years ago some had arrived in the vicinity of Puerto Montt, Chile, and somewhat later all the way to Tierra del Fuego.

    That means there is insufficient time for significant genetic variations to arise. The study that you cited isn’t wrong, just dramatized. For the most significant variations look to Africa. For substantial variations Out of Africa look to the Australian aborigines and the upland Papua New Guinea islanders, separated for 60–50 thousand years.

    The study states something about as different as Europeans and Chinese. Well, Kazakh is in Europe and Inner Mongolia is in China, so that wasn’t impressive.

    What is the point here is that there is barely 12,000 years of isolation, if that, between say the Cherokee and the Amerindians of Peru. That means that the genome of the two groups cannot be substantially different.

    1. David – if their arrival 12,000 years ago wasn’t sufficient time for genetic differences to arise, then they would be indistinguishable from the originating peoples from which they migrated. There are indeed markers that geneticists have used to study human migration patterns. You are confusing the normal rate of change for isolated populations with the evolution of a new species.

      There are no DNA tests for Cherokee or any other North American tribe. Rather, there are mt-DNA and Y-DNA assays that can trace matrilineal and patrilineal lines. Tricky if the line is broken.

      The point is that Elizabeth Warren touted this as proving her claim that she is part Native American. Others hope it will excuse her listing over the years as a minority professional. It doesn’t. The data does not support her claim. She had far less non-European DNA than the average Caucasian. In addition, the DNA only used DNA from 3 South American nationalities. We have no idea if Vikings landed there, intermingled (a heck of a euphemism), brought offspring back, and that got into the gene pool before her ancestors ever immigrated here from Sweden.

      You have argued against this assertion by claiming none of us understand the science, without explanation. Please support your theory, in detail, that this DNA test does prove Elizabeth Warren’s claim to be Cherokee/Delaware. Merely repeating “you don’t understand science” does not qualify.

      1. Karen S – I have read the entire Vinland Saga and no intermingling takes place. Fighting takes place, though.

          1. Karen S – it is the account by the Vikings of the time in Vinland. Fascinating.

  2. Mr Kurtz — The genetic evidence demonstrates that Out of Africa is correct. However, everyone Out of Africa has 1–2% Neanderthal DNA acquired after leaving Sub-Saharan Africa. In addition, the peoples of Southeast Asia and including the Australian aborigines have a few percent of Denisovian DNA, otherwise known only from a few fossils in the Denisova cave of Siberia. Incidentally, one fossil gives half Neanderthal and half Denisovian DNA. Finally there is yet another species of humans, known only for the genetic contribution to a few peoples of Southeast Asia; I know little about this last.

    So, yes, a modified Out of Africa for those who left but not for those who remained.

    1. “In addition, the peoples of Southeast Asia and including the Australian aborigines have a few percent of Denisovian DNA”

      Actually, no. 6 modern humans were tested – “Tests comparing the Denisova hominin genome with those of six modern humans – a ǃKung from South Africa, a Nigerian, a Frenchman, a Papua New Guinean, a Bougainville Islander and a Han Chinese – showed that between 4 and 6% of the genome of Melanesians (represented by the Papua New Guinean and Bougainville Islander) derives from a Denisovan population; a later study puts the amount at 1.11% (with an additional contribution from some different and yet unknown ancestor).”

      6 people, one from each of 6 different regions, showed Denisovian DNA composition similar to Neanderthal, around 1%. One person from each region is not representative of all people of that region. It’s a cohort of “1” for the !Kung, for example. We don’t yet know what the range of this DNA is.

      Now why are you talking about the Denosivians? They don’t even know if it was a distinct species, or a sub species.

      Elizabeth Warren has more Neanderthal than South American DNA. How could that be? During the migration, there were very few people. Mixing with Neanderthals would have a disproportionately large effect on the overall gene pool, until almost everyone had 1%. Eventually, it became very difficult to have an ancestor who did not have Neanderthal in their line.

      If you are bringing up extinct human species, you are really grasping at straws. Elizabeth Warren’s claim traces back to OC Sarah Smith. You don’t actually have to go back to the Dawn of Time, although I did take it back to 1760 for you.

      1. Karen S, I was just answering the question posed by Mr Kurtz. Nothing more. You could kindly provide a link for your quotation as that is not how I recall the study.

        To be absolutely clear, this has nothing to do with Elizabeth Warren.

    2. Mr Kurtz, for a more complete description of Denisova genetic influence on modern humans the Wikipedia page is quite complete.

  3. David,
    You have thoroughly embarrassed yourself on this thread, but because I am a physician and feel compassion for you, here is your lifeline and dont blow it.

    Read this classic genetics text that medical doctors study as a basic intro to the course. Since you say you are a published mathematician, this book should be doable for you. And please show humility in the future. Practically all of the commenters on here have trounced you for good reason.

    “Thompson & Thompson genetics in medicine”
    Author: Robert L Nussbaum; Roderick R McInnes; Huntington F Willard
    Publisher: Philadelphia, PA : Elsevier, [2016] ©2016
    ISBN: 9781437706963 1437706967
    OCLC Number: 989815552

    https://www.worldcat.org/title/thompson-thompson-genetics-in-medicine/oclc/989815552?referer=di&ht=edition

    1. Jessica — Two of my children are practicing M.D.s so studied this or something similar. My interest is in population genetics as applied to the peopling of the globe and I understand that quite well, thank you.

      But perhaps you would care to try your hand at the question that I put to Michael Aarethun and he didn’t try: how many ancestors do you have 20 generations back?

      To reiterate, I keep up in what is known about the peopling of the Americas. Indeed, I could write in much more detail than is necessary to agree with the general conclusion of Elizabeth Warren’s genetic test; she has indigenous American ancestors, almost certainly of the Amerindian linguistic/genetic group.

      Willing to try my question?

      1. This is the answer to your question about how many ancestors you would have 20 generations back:
        Your parents would be the first generation back. That would be 2 ancestors in the first generation. The second generation back would be your grandparents, so that would be 4 in that generation. You would have had 8 great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents, …… , and in the 20th generation back you would have had 1,048,576 [great * 19] grandparents. That is straightforward math. If I did not calculate this correctly, please advise.

        1. brerrabbit77 — That’s the start.

          Assume 20 years per generation, so about 400 years ago. Just how many people were there in the Massachusetts Bay Colony? Indeed in all of England? Are you actually related, in only two more generations removed, to everyone in Tudor England?

          So is it unlikely that you actually have over a million ancestors at the 20th generation and slightly more than the entire population of England at the 22nd population?

          What actually happens?

          1. I do not claim to be any kind of authority on this. I just did the math. I wondered the same thing myself. I did not check any population figures for that far back. What I would guess is that there were some people who appeared in more than one branch of the family tree. I would be interested to hear any other explanations.

            1. Yes, they cannot all be unique.

              You are doing well.

              What does lack of uniqueness imply?

      2. David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me sixteen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – Elizabeth Warren’s claim is that her mother was noticeably Indian, Cherokee and Delaware, and hence could not marry her father. The DNA evidence puts the Indian relationship so far back it preceded any of Warren’s forebearers reaching North America. She is whiter than white. The percentage is at a level of statistical noise.

        1. Elizabeth Warren’s claim is wrong.

          You misunderstand the genetic evidence.

  4. Has anyone posted this yet? Sing it with me, now!
    “I’m an Indian, too!”

    1. Enter your mathematical proof here. If it’s real science it won’t be difficult.

      1. Learn some genetics. To help you out, how many ancestors do you have 20 generations back?

        Yes, it is a trick question for all too many…

        1. Translated I’m changing the subject because i can’t support my original comment.

          1. This is the wrong format to attempt to teach elementary genetics to fools who don’t want to learn as their minds are already made up and set it concrete.

            1. David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me sixteen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – your field is electrical engineering.

            2. Personally I don’t think you could teach anyone to track a dirty dog across a wet floor.

        2. David:

          I gather that you are referring to the overlapping of genetic lines. The farther back you go, the more likely to encounter multiple crosses to the same line.

          That is not the issue.

          Elizabeth Warren claimed that her Great Great Great Grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith was Cherokee. With this percentage of DNA shared with Mexicans, Columbians, and Peruvians, she was not Cherokee.

          That said, perhaps a Conquistador in the year of our Lord 1537, got a child by an Aztec woman through unscrupulous means. Then, say he brought his son back to Spain with him and that son introduced South American genes to Europe, along with the mixed children other Conquistadores returned with. Then, those sons migrated to Sweden, and from there, several South American lines ended up in Elizabeth Warren’s ancestry.

          Or, let’s say the source was Eurasian. I actually do not know what genetic markers they flagged, and if it was separate and distinct from Eurasian genetics, such as Mongolia, which shares quite a bit of genetic markers with Native Americans.

          I’ve got to tell you, clearly, that the Cherokee did not have much congress with people in Mexico, Peru, or Columbia. Such ties would go back to very early migration patterns, and if you go that far back, then you’re talking Eurasian genetics.

          Proving genetic affiliation with the Cherokee would be tricky, since so many of them were wiped out by the Trail of Tears.

          Her quest for proof began with geneticist Christopher Child, who claimed to have found a marriage license for OC Sarah Smith claiming she was Cherokee. However, there was no such distinction on any marriage license, or indeed any searchable document, in Logan county. In fact, the county clerk of Logan County stated that there were no marriage applications in that county in 1894. They were not how licenses were obtained.

          In addition, OC Sarah Smith was listed on repeated censuses as white. Her husband, Jonathan Crawford, gathered the Cherokee for the Trail of Tears. (I have not seen documents supporting this.)

          Jonathan Crawford’s parents were Swedish immigrants. Any non-European blood on their end occurred pre-immigration to the US. OC Sarah Smith’s parents were

          The writer of the family newsletter referenced in some of the attempts to prove ancestry was labeled an amateur with a creative imagination.

          https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/elizabeth-warren-s-genealogical-challenge-d6CwvV21j0i5Ctvuo6p_XQ/

          To prove she was Cherokee or Delaware, she would have to take a DNA test to show familial relationship with an actual full-blooded member of either tribe. Since she has no genealogical records at all showing any relationship with any tribe, it would be impossible to trace to a familial line to narrow down that test.

          Do you remember what I said about Kavanaugh? That bad people do bad things? They don’t usually commit one crime, and then nothing.

          Elizabeth Warren claimed that her parents had to elope because her father’s family objected to her mother being Native American. However, records show that her parents actually got married by a minister, not a justice of the peace. They announced their wedding in the paper. He dropped out of college, which may have been a motive for opposing the marriage. There is no evidence that his family objected to her for being Native American.

          Elizabeth Warren submitted several recipes to Pow Wow Chow that she claimed were old family Native American recipes. They were verbatim plagiarized recipes, the most recent of which was from a French Chef, published in 1979 in the NYT. 1979 is Elizabeth Warren’s generation. In addition, one would think that an academic would deduce that a cold crab omelette cooked in a 7-inch Teflon pan was not an authentic Cherokee recipe.

          She claimed that her career never benefited from her claims of being a minority, but at a time when Harvard’s diversity was under scrutiny, the university stated that she was Native American.

          None of Elizabeth Warren’s ancestors can be found on any of the Cherokee rolls:

          1817 Reservations Rolls – Cherokees wanting a 640 acre tract in the East
          1817-1835 Emigration Rolls – Cherokees who filed to emigrate to Arkansas
          1835 Henderson Roll – Cherokee Census for AL, GA, TN, NC
          1848 Mullay Roll – Census for NC Cherokee remaining after removal
          1851 Siler Roll – Eastern Cherokee Payment Roll
          1851 Old Settlers Rolls – Cherokee Old Settlers living West prior to 1839
          1852 Chapman Roll – Payment Roll based on Siler Roll
          1852 Drennan Roll – First Census after Trail of Tears
          1869 Swetland Roll – Authorizition of Payment for NC Cherokee
          1883 Hester Roll – Eastern Cherokee Roll
          1898-1914 Dawes Roll – Final Allotment Rolls
          1908 Churchill Roll – Eastern Band Cherokee (Rejections etc.)
          1909 Guion Miller East Roll – Eastern Cherokee Roll
          1909 Guion Miller Roll – Entitlement Rolls for Allotments
          1924 Baker Roll – Current Membership Roll for Eastern Cherokee

          Here is a genealogy analysis from a Tribal perspective, comparing and contrasting two different people claiming 1/64th Cherokee blood. One should note that the Native American affiliation most often fraudulently claimed is Cherokee:

          http://www.pollysgranddaughter.com/2012/05/elizabeth-warrens-ancestry-part-1.html

          1. Karen S – you forget that when the Cherokee came to Oklahoma there were great herds of crabs that were a source of protein for the tribe.

            1. And chickens. That ancestral food stable of the Cherokee, the chicken and its eggs. In fact, the 6 directions of the sacred pipe pays homage to all the directions to which chickens scatter during a buffalo hunt.

              In fact, and this is a little known fact, there is always a rooster feather hidden in a war bonnet. Teflon pans were also critical bartering tools between warring tribes.

            2. LOL Paul………..and great herds of fair-haired young women settlers, & among them was one who decided to create recipes…..Recipes for teepees!
              (Tipis)

              1. Cindy Bragg – I have not seen the recipe, but does it include cheese, another staple of the Plains. You need all those moo cows, but they can step on those valuable crab herds. You really have to keep them separate.

                1. To be perfectly authentic, it has to be buffalo milk, obtained very, very carefully.

                2. Paul and Karen…….Yes, moo cows are not very graceful and would have to watch their steps…..but I can’t imagine what buffalo milk tastes like…yuck! How about a dairy-free recipe?!

        3. Part II of Tribal genealogical search. Elizabeth Warren’s family was traced back to 14 years before the Cherokee removal, and still the family was living as white. No trace of Native American so far.

        4. Part 3, and now we get to the juicy part. One may wonder at this part why it was so common for people to lie about Native American ancestry, especially Cherokee. This was especially common in the South.

          http://www.pollysgranddaughter.com/2012/06/elizabeth-warrens-ancestry-part-3.html

          Now, pay attention, boys and girls, because this is important. America Isabelle Crawford was a great grand-aunt of Elizabeth Warren. Her husband, Joab Mitchell, filed an application to get free land by claiming to be Choctaw. However, it was actually America Crawford who would have descended from Native Americans, and quite recently at that point. Joab Mitchell claimed on his application that she was white. He claimed Native American ancestry for himself in order to try to get free land. It was rejected. America’s daughter stated that her mother was white, but there was a little bit of Indian blood way back on her father’s line. Her father, Joab Mitchell, was married to Elizabeth’s great grand aunt, and therefore no blood relation of Warren’s.

          So far, we have traced Elizabeth Warren’s family as white for 188 years. We have also compared and contrasted how a similar claim of 1/64th Cherokee was documented in census and other government records during the same time period by following Chief Baker’s family, a real Cherokee descendent.

          “Though all those documents list America Isabelle as white, it might not be enough for some people to be convinced, so it is necessary to share even more evidence that shows this woman was white. In 1902, America Isabelle Crawford’s husband, Joab Mitchell, filed a Dawes application claiming to be Mississippi Choctaw. (The application was rejected.) This was a fairly common thing for white people to do because they believed the Indians had no records and their claim alone would get them some free land. This may have been Joab’s motivation because he first claimed to be 1/16th Indian blood but when he said his grandma was 1/2, the interviewer told him he would be 1/8th and asked which would he like to claim, 1/8th or 1/16th. Joab said as much as he could. It appears he might have thought the more Indian blood one had, the more land they would get. This wasn’t true, but that seems to be a possible motivator for wanting to claim as much Indian blood as he could. Anyway, since this man filed a claim for himself and for his children, it would be logical he would have done the same for his wife if she was Indian and he thought he could get land for her too. Guess what. He didn’t. And he actually said his wife was……a white woman. Now there was no shame in this guy’s game. He was claiming he and his children had Indian blood so there would have been no problem claiming his wife had Indian blood if she did. He said she was WHITE.”

        5. Part V – more on the extreme whiteness of Elizabeth Warren, who may be the whitest white entitled person in the United States.

          http://www.pollysgranddaughter.com/2012/08/elizabeth-warren-who-do-you-think-you_17.html

          Elizabeth Warren claimed that Pauline Reed Herring was half Cherokee and half Delaware. Her mother was Hannie Crawford. Pauline’s daughter was

          “Harry Gunn Reed, Elizabeth Warren’s “pappaw” with the high cheekbones, was the son of Joseph H. Reed. That Joseph was the brother of Henrietta Reed Ridgway. Joseph and Henrietta had the same mother and father, Rev. Joseph H. Reed and Eliza Bell. From Joseph and Henrietta backwards, the ancestry is the same.

          When Robert Ridgway, first cousin of Harry Gunn Reed, was away on his expeditions, his family worried about him. This is shown in one of the letters his mother, Henrietta Reed Ridgway wrote, dated August 4, 1867. In this letter, she described her concerns for her son’s safety concerning wild beasts, panthers, falling off cliffs, drowning and other things. She also wrote, “Pa is very much afraid you will be exposed to the Indians.”

          Rewind! Can we see that again?

          “Pa is very much afraid you will be exposed to the Indians.”

          Do you need to see it with your own eyes in Henrietta’s own hand?

          (Click on the link to read in Henrietta’s own writing her fear of Robert encountering “Indians.” Kind of strange for a Cherokee/Delaware.)

          Hmmm…Do you see the significance of this? They were afraid of Indians. White people were afraid of Indians. Indians would not have been afraid of being “exposed to Indians.” And because Indians didn’t see themselves as one huge group called “Indians”, they would not have been afraid of “Indians” but instead, a member of a specific tribe. For example, a Cherokee might have been afraid of a Creek or an Osage, but not an “Indian.” They recognized themselves as individual Indian nations or tribes, not “Indians.” The type of language used in the letter from Henrietta to her son, Robert, indicates they were white people, not Indians.”

          If you navigate to the link you can read Robert’s reply to his mother, in which he explains that there is no danger from “Indians” and she should put her mind at rest on “Indian” matters. How strange, to be explaining to a Native American with high cheekbones how Indians are.

      1. LOL

        Warren has killed her political future. Time for Biden to step in and put his foot in his mouth.

      1. David, how can you say that when every time someone provides proof of something you run away.

        Example: The Concord Study. It seems that your type of science is more akin to religion.

        1. In this case it is elementary genetics and not so elementary DNA testing. One does have to have some knowledge. Many on this blog do not.

          1. David, since you are not able to cogently defend you position nor can you provide a direct explanation by a known expert by providing a citation and paragraph number it seems that it is you who is winging it and getting things wrong.

            I had the same problem with you not providing proof of your contention involving healthcare and the British. Your citation was generic and applicable to almost everyone and the metric you used as proof wasn’t an appropriate metric to prove where outcomes are the best. I provided the Concord Study for you to review. You didn’t. I then provided you numbers from the Concord study. You then ran away.

            1. All in your head. All that was your diversion from the thrust of the comment that I wrote.

              1. That is what you say now, but you had your chance when we were on the subject and you ran away. That is something you do quite frequently and it doesn’t go unnoticed.

          2. David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me sixteen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – I took a course in DNA in the mid 1960s. Does that count? It hasn’t really changed any.

      2. DBB:
        It’s ten generations removed which is the outer limit of the DNA analysis!

        1. mespo – it is clear that David does not understand the science. It is waaaaaay outside his field.

      3. David, sigh. You can take about overlapping family trees, Neanderthals, and Denosivans all you want. That is not what Elizabeth Warren claimed. She claimed that OC Sarah Smith was Cherokee and Delaware. She did not say that many of her lines had traces of Native American blood from way, way, way far back that showed up in her DNA test. She claimed it was OC Sarah Smith.

        It’s been debunked. It’s so embarrassing at this point that it is painful.

        1. Karen S, I do not write about the claims of Elizabeth Warren. I only write about matters related to the population of the globe, especially the Americas.

          That includes the results of her genetic test.

          1. Then why are you arguing against people who claim the DNA analysis does not support Elizabeth Warren’s claim, if you are not writing about “the claims of Elizabeth Warren?”

            What, exactly, are you arguing then?

            1. The DNA analysis does support a claim for indigenous ancestry. I ignore the so-called analysis of other records or recollections.

              Apologies for being less than fully clear.

        2. Karen S – “I would now like to introduce you to the whiter than white, Elizabeth Warren. She will be speaking on white toxicity.”

  5. US senator Elizabeth Warren faces backlash after indigenous DNA claim
    2018 Oct 16
    BBC news

    Read all the way to the end for a statement by Deb Haaland of Laguna Pueblo, New Mexico, and running for office.

    1. Summation.

      Even if you added the 1024 to Both Tribes to arrive at 512 it’s a far reach to 256 to 128 to 64 to 32 and reach a legal status it does not answer the other questions.

      1a. Shifting the blame fallacy. The universities said they never used that information. But they were offering the position to one where it was required.

      1.b. But she still checked the block making the claim. TWICE

      2. Inaccuracy of Time Fallacy.
      As some one pointed out and thank you it predates arrival

      3. Trump said if you can prove with this kit that you are ‘an’ Indian. A few go to 1/64th

      4. Upon learning of all this Warren continued live a fallacy and use it as if it were true.

      5. Just a add on opinion. I hope her math is better when she runs banks out of business.

      1. Allan and Cindy – I agree with your Bald Eagle meme. Visually, it says it all.

        1. Paul C. ……Let’s see, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a bald eagle! (according to Liz logic) 🍌

  6. He did not actually make a wager to Warren. He was saying what he would do on stage in debate with her.

      1. Carl Zimmer is a science writer specializing in biology. He is very good at what he does.

        You, Michael Aarethun, on the other hand, are simply a fool.

            1. That is great and when I need something written I hire a writer and when I need solid knowledge about genetics I hire a geneticist. Unfortuantely you don’t seem to know the difference.

                1. David, I have no dispute with Carl Zimmer B.A. English. He is probably a good writer and probably knows a lot of things. If he writes a story about a scientist’s fine research the expert would be the scientist not Carl Zimmer.

                  That is where you fail and fall down all the time. You seem unable to differentiate the truth from good writing. That good writing influences your political views as well and for some reason you are unable to keep track of the facts.

                  Once again we get to the outcome study, Concord. You made comments that were wrong and when shown a different side of the coin you asked for references. When provided those references you found a generic article that was reasonably well written but didn’t say much of anything regarding the discussion at hand. You utilized the wrong metric in drawing your conclusions and when confronted with the numbers from the Concord Study you ran away.

                  This habit of running away has been noted on the blog over and over again by various people. That is why nothing you say can be taken seriously. Not that it should since it is generally superficial or opinion that you believe counts as fact. Finally, much of what you say is wrong, wrong, wrong.

                  Jessica brought up an important resource on basic genetics used in medical school. How did you answer that addition? You deflected and told us that two of your children were M.D.’s and probably read the book. You didn’t even stop to think if the book was written when they went to medical school. You thought it sufficient that your children might have read the book and therefore you had familiarity with it that didn’t exist anywhere except in your mind.

        1. That is not acceptable proof of your refusal to provide Paul his cites or me my mathematical proof. There are over 77 common ways of presenting fallacies. I believe you are on number 7.

          1. Michael Aarethun, I owe Paul nothing; it is all in his head.

            I’m not about to attempt to explain elementary genetics to you; go find a textbook at your reading and comprehension level.

            More to the point, TNYT is a newspaper of record and rarely contains errors of commission. That you fail to understand such an elementary point…

            1. How long have you been in this rut of failing and blaming others. Ahhhhh your a Clintonite

      1. David:

        How about the NYT?

        https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/science/23andme-genetic-ethnicity-study.html

        In addition, if you look up the study methods, they did not use DNA from any North American tribe, but rather Mexican, Peruvian, and Colombian.

        Based on the percentage, it occurred before her ancestors immigrated to America.

        She clearly does not understand science.

        Or, there is the question of deliberate lying. After all, it seems to imply guilt that she would submit recipes plagiarized verbatim from a French Chef and claim it was an old family Cherokee recipe.

        One of the French recipes was published in the NYT in 1979, which means this old family recipe started in her generation.

        In addition, she said in an interview in 2012 that her parents had to elope because his family objected to her Native ancestry. Except, it turns out they were married by a prominent minister 2 months after he turned 21, the legal age to get married. He also dropped out of college, which would be an objection to the marriage. How interesting that her father’s family never came forward.

        The evidence is mounting that Elizabeth Warren has a problem lying, or her family does.

        1. Karen S — I repeat what I have written many times earlier on this thread: all Amerindian DNA is essentially identical; there has not been enough time to evolve differences. So DNA from South America works as a substitute for unobtainable DNA from the USA tribes.

          You fail to understand what the DNA test shows; at least that percentage Amerindian, not at most.

          1. David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me sixteen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – I would posit that since there is not enough from the many tribes in North America, then that intuitive jump is too great to take. And, if you contention that some tribes like the Apace and Navajo are different genetically, then it stands to reason that other tribes could be. You are just guessing.

            Regardless, Elizabeth Warren is whiter than white. 🙂

            1. Your “stands to reason” is wrong.

              I just pass on what I have learned from the anthropologists; the exciting story of out of Africa.

              1. Anthropoligists are not an identified expert witnesss which means you are now up to nine of 77 plus fallacies. Rejected. False name. False Cite from False expert and therefore. even your fallacy is fallacious but those mathematical proofs? Are you still trying to train your puppy..

          2. “all Amerindian DNA is essentially identical; there has not been enough time to evolve differences.”

            What the heck are you talking about? You don’t know about genetic diversity in the Americas among different phenotypes?

            https://www.amren.com/news/2014/06/mexican-genetics-study-reveals-huge-variation-in-ancestry/

            Here is an article for your erudition, “Mexican Genetics Study Reveals Huge Variation in Ancestry.”

            “The study, which documented nearly 1 million genetic variants among more than 1,000 individuals, unveiled genetic differences as extensive as the variations between some Europeans and Asians, indicating populations that have been isolated for hundreds to thousands of years.”

            “Over thousands of years, there’s been a tremendous language and cultural diversity across Mexico, with large empires like the Aztec and Maya, as well as small, isolated populations,” said Christopher Gignoux, PhD, who was first author on the study with Andres Moreno-Estrada, first as a graduate student at UCSF and now as a postdoctoral fellow at Stanford. “Not only were we able to measure this diversity across the country, but we identified tremendous genetic diversity, with real disease implications based on where, precisely, your ancestors are from in Mexico.”

            “In this study, we realized that for disease classification it also matters what type of Native American ancestry you have. In terms of genetics, it’s the difference between a neighborhood and a precise street address.”

            “Among the results was the discovery of three distinct genetic clusters in different areas of Mexico, as well as clear remnants of ancient empires that cross seemingly remote geographical zones. In particular, the Seri people along the northern mainland coast of the Gulf of California and a Mayan people known as the Lacandon, near the Guatemalan border, are as genetically different from one another as Europeans are from Chinese.”

            You claimed to be au currant on genetics, so much so that you couldn’t possibly explain a line of it to us. This is pretty basic stuff to geneticists, biostatisticians, epidemiologists…

            A light GOOGLE search could at least scratch the surface.

            Also, did you see what I did all throughout my posts? I copied and pasted links to my sources so that people could read them and drill down with questions or comments.

            Otherwise, if I told you that the Seri and Lacandon of Mexico are as genetically disparate as Europeans are from the Chinese, you might not believe me, without a source document.

            1. Ugh. I did a quick search for one of the studies on genetic diversity of indigenous Mexican people, and posted the first study summary I found of a study that I remembered. Highly questionable website that listed that academic study.

              Here is the original article on the study, whose purpose was to study disparate health risks in Mexico and their genetic component.

              https://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-mexican-genetics-reveals-huge-variation.html

          3. I have no big problem with the NYT article. So she has a remote Indian ancestor, “not recent,” “6-10 generations” distant. That means, hardly any ancestry at all, practically speaking. Liz Warren is white, as we knew already. The NYT is careful not to offend her, but the article is not substantially flawed if you set that powderpuff tone aside.

            I did find this part interesting:

            “He did not study any Native Americans in the United States, with whom Ms. Warren would presumably be most closely related.

            Native American tribes have felt exploited and deceived about how their DNA has been studied in the past. The long-running distrust means that relatively little is known of their DNA.

            Krystal Tsosie, an indigenous geneticist and bioethicist at Vanderbilt University, said another concern among Native Americans is that people might use results from consumer genetic tests to claim that they belong to particular tribes, regardless of a tribe’s own rules for membership.

            “There are all these questions about how this can potentially harm our sovereign status,” she said.

            Without data on Native Americans in the United States, Dr. Bustamante and his colleagues were careful to limit their conclusions.”

            1. Mr Kurtz – Elizabeth Warren is being condemned by First People from Canada. When you have lost the support of Canada, it is all over. 😉

        2. When you got to NYT you struck out Anything said or printed by them requires additional proof in no small amount.

            1. Clone Benson prove it. I just caught you in your own trap.

              Does the NYT have a proven records of printing false information?

              Yes

              Is it a very large one percentage wise?

              No but it does stand out. o

              Is it enough to require prosecution?

              No it only requires a pro forma apology.

              And then?

              And then they are free to do the same thing again.

              As a reasoning thinking individual how do you rate NYT.

              As requiring verification.

              As an Objectivist.

              Not Useful in a factual sense but as with all such MAY become useful at some further date. No discernible moral standards

              In this case my opinion of your opinion is based on observing the nature of your opinions. Nothing more is required other than continued observation.

  7. There are rumors circulating that Hillary Clinton died today in a car accident. The car is still operating with all pistons firing but Hillary alas was found to be pumping Huma Abedin who is 1/1069th Cherokee

    “Hillary Clinton’s Car Crashes in New Jersey”
    https://ntknetwork.com/hillary-clintons-car-crashes-in-new-jersey/

    “Twice-failed presidential candidate Hillary Clinton was involved in a minor car accident before attending a fundraiser for Sen. Bob Menendez (D-NJ) on Tuesday.

    In the footage exclusively obtained by NTK Network, Clinton’s Secret Service van, famously known as the Scooby Doo van, pulled into a parking garage Monday evening. About halfway up the ramp, the van hit an object, making a loud crashing noise.

    Several minutes later, Clinton and longtime aide Huma Abedin emerged from the van, looking shaken but unharmed.”

    1. “…attending a fundraiser for Sen. Bob Menendez (D-NJ)”

      no doubt Hillary was attending bc she fighting for #Metoo Bob Menendez

      🖕🏾

  8. To be fair, Trump’s comments were in the context of a hypothetical imagining of a (presumably presidential) debate with Warren. In that context, he said he would bring a DNA kit and if Warren could prove that she was Indian, then he would pay $1M.

    The other salient point here is what constitutes being Indian. All the scenarios presented pretty much round to zero because they are at best trace amounts and the Cherokee nation statement is hardly supportive of any claim to being Cherokee Indian.

    Bottom line, Trump’s promise is being taken out of context and he is right on this one.

  9. I’m most surprised that the usually carefully spoken Mr. Turley omitted the vital context in a mocking scenario at a rally speech, namely, “Let’s say I’m debating Pocahontas … “. This wasn’t an even a slightly serious bet!
    And as others have also pointed out, Mr. Turley’s piece also failed to mention that Ms. Warren’s test did not take into account Nth. American tribes at all!

    I look forward to a more complete and thoughtful piece from Mr. Turley, before his next invitation (much appreciated, by the way), “What do you think?”

      1. I stated Amerindian. That is the most numerous genetic and linguistic group of the American indigenees.

            1. You fail to see the joke David, too serious, I was hoping you could get a laugh out of this at least.

  10. There is a lot of misinformation on the science between Elizabeth Warren’s aha moment. When you understand the science, her claim appears even more ludicrous. I cannot believe that this is the hill she wants to die on, but so be it. Prepare to figuratively die on that hill.

    The test lacked North American Native DNA, so it used instead DNA from Mexico, Peru, and Chile. It did not, I repeat, not, test for any DNA for North American tribes such as the Cherokee.

    In addition, it showed that she had 1/1024th South American DNA, which is actually quite a bit less than the average European American. (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/science/23andme-genetic-ethnicity-study.html) In addition, this predates when her ancestors immigrated to the US, which means she definitively is NOT Cherokee. Due to human migration, most people have an interesting variety of genes, including from Eurasia, which will have similarities to native people due to their migrating, debatably, over the Bering Land Bridge.

    What Elizabeth Warren has succeeded in doing was not only disprove that she was Cherokee, but thoroughly piss off the Cherokee Nation.

    “Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America,” Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said in a press release.

    “Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation,” Hoskin continued. “Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.”

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cherokee-nation-responds-to-senator-warren-says-dna-test-useless-to-determine-tribal-citizenship

    I do not fault Ms Warren for believing family lore. I do, however, hold her responsible as an academic for persisting in this belief in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Her first clue that her MeeMaw lied should have been when she proudly submitted an old family Cherokee recipe to PowWow Chow (OMG, the name sounds straight out of a Mel Brooks movie). This turned out to be a verbatim plagiarism of recipes from a French Chef published in the NY Times. An academic should have also realized that cold crab omelette was not an ancient Cherokee recipe.

    What she should have done was to apologize to the Cherokee. She could have said that she sincerely believed her family’s stories, but now know they were not true.

    What we now have is an elitist, who may be 1/1024th (0.0977%) South American, who proudly listed herself as a minority. This was the proof she provided with a flourish – 1/1024th (0.0977%) shared genes with Native South American, as compared with the average Caucasian who has 0.18% Native American.

    So, based on the science, absolutely not should President Trump pay a dime. She did not prove tribal ancestry, and in fact has significantly less non-European blood than the average Caucasian.

    She should apologize to the Cherokee, the American people, and to President Trump. I don’t always think that our POTUS is right, but she’s nailed herself on this one.

    1. Professor Turley, please note the Boston Globe correction to their math error. The best case scenario was 1/64, not 1/32, or .0156%, again, significantly less than the average white American’s 0.18% Native Blood and, again, no North American tribal DNA was used because it was too scarce. They instead used Mexican, Peruvian, and Chilean DNA as the next closest thing.

    2. the main thing is the tribe sets its own standards. So if she was a genuine proponent of diversity she would respect this.

      am not Native blooded not even a scintilla. I am proud that I was born here as were my immediate ancestors but thence all my ancestors came from Europe. But I can’t claim to be German, etc. I am an American. Likewise I respect the sovereignty of the Indian tribes.

      and Warren should respect the nations too.

        1. But who are you? Why should we believe someone hiding behind someone else’s name or a made up one. Expert Witness is far more stringent in it’s requirements. REJECTED.

      1. David, why row upstream for this lady? She screwed herself on this one. You are making yourself seem silly too.

        I like some of the things she has said about financial regulation. That’s about it. She should remain silent about pretty much everything else, her other opinions are dreck.

          1. population grouping identification and admixture is an interesting topic in genetics

            https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/12/genetic-study-reveals-surprising-ancestry-many-americans

            tribe is a social construct but like other social constructs it has factual antecedents in biological realities

            white is a real and valid population grouping, which we call race, with a widely agreed social consensus, that is also based on the obvious phenotype, which is in turn biologically determined. And, we all know immediately upon looking at her, that Liz Warren is white.

            and we also know that Native American tribes can set their own terms, by law and by legitimate custom, and she is not one of them. her false claim discredits her. the test proves her claim was false.

            Trump stated the obvious about this, and trolled her into discrediting herself with normal folks even more.

            The only regrettable casualty is whatever legitimate critiques she had of financial regulations: but then again it seems she didn’t really care or she would not have wasted her efforts on this farce.

            They are always telling us there is no such thing as a pure race. Ok, but that doesn’t mean that race is not valid for some purposes even if there is no such thing as a pure race, there can still be cognizable race.

            Well, Liz Warren is more purely europid than most of us. And yet she is still calling herself Amerindian. What a ridiculous story.

          2. DBB:

            I am paying attention but you and Princess Lieawatha have me confused. You guys are”poetry in motion” avoiding all these questions:

      2. I do assure you that I understand genetics and the parameters of a genotype analysis.

        But do go on and explain in detail what I’ve got wrong.

    3. “this predates when her ancestors immigrated to the US, which means she definitively is NOT Cherokee.”

      Great comment, one that to date no one has actually thought of that I have read. It’s a simple conclusion based on the facts at hand. Simple but hidden in all the rhetoric.

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