Criminal law, Media, Military, Religion

Former Trump Chief Of Staff Defends Vindman Over Need To Report Trump’s “Illegal Order”

Former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly has defended Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman’s decision to report President Trump’s call with the Ukrainian president. Kelly referred to the call as an “illegal order” that had to be reported. Most of us support Vindman raising his concerns with the chain of command and hopefully Trump will not attack Kelly for stating his support for Vindman. This is a principled and reasonable view of one of our most respected military officers.

In comments at Drew University Wednesday night, Kelly said Vindman “did exactly what we teach them to do from cradle to grave. He went and told his boss what he just heard.” Kelly went on: “We teach them, Don’t follow an illegal order. And if you’re ever given one, you’ll raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order, and then tell your boss.” 

I do not see the call as an “illegal order” but agree that such reservations should be raised, as they were, with Vindman’s superiors. As I have written, I do not see the call as a crime or illegal. While I have criticized the reference to the Bidens as inappropriate and deeply concerning, the issue is not whether it is illegal but whether it was appropriate for Vindman to take the matters to his superiors. The answer is clearly yes.

While I am not hopeful, Trump should respect the view of Kelly on this question and not counterpunch with a personal attack. Kelly’s criticism of other issues like immigration are simply his opinion, but the Vindman question goes to a core principle of military ethics that should not be questioned by the White House.

89 thoughts on “Former Trump Chief Of Staff Defends Vindman Over Need To Report Trump’s “Illegal Order””

  1. According to a radio host, John Kelly’s wife pulled President Trump aside and told him that “…when we are gone from the White House, John will only speak well of the President.”

    Kelly is not only a deceitful and treacherous employee, he is a liar.

  2. Certainly many confused comments below.

    According to the Wikipedia article on Vindman, he reported to the NSC lead counsel. Presumably before informing staff of the Senate oversight committee.

    1. If the whistle-blower was CIA then it will plausible that he listened to a recording made of all phone calls from the Ukrainian president’s office.

      1. David B. Benson,
        In the whistleblower’s complaint, he states that he had no direct knowledge of the Trump-Zelensky phone call.
        So it looks like someone with “direct knowledge” ( Vindman?) relayed the contents of the call to the whistleblower.

      2. From someone else in the CIA then. Unlikely that a military officer working for the NSC — in the Executive Wing? —- would have much connection with a CIA agent out at Langley. If so, it would be due to some “need to know”.

        1. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/vindman-and-whistleblower-still-work-together-on-u-s-policy-towards-ukraine
          ————————————–
          David B. Benson,
          Of course, everyone with the CIA isn’t stationed at Langley.
          Also, since both Vindman and Ciaramella worked on Ukraine issues, there’s the likelihood that they would have known each other.
          We might know for sure if and when Vindman and Ciaramella cash in with book deals.

  5. Except if we check, he didn’t report to his supervisor. He had a conversation with someone who became the whistleblower. That is not the same thing as the General is describing. I have no complaint with the former but the second is insubordination

      1. And your point is?

        It might be a good idea for “employees” to make themselves valuable and/or get two jobs.

        Alternatively, “employees” may start a business.

        The Constitution provides equal measures of freedom to Bezos and “employees.”

        Are you and “employees” blaming someone else for your and their own personal failures?

        Do you believe that someone else should pay your bills and the bills of “employees?”

        Do you believe any country or, otherwise, organization should allow you to vote?

        Is parasitism in your DNA or a learned behavior?
        __________________________________________________________________

        “Revolution”

        You say you’ll change the constitution
        Well, you know
        We all want to change your head

        You tell me it’s the institution
        Well, you know
        You better free you mind instead

        But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
        You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow

        Don’t you know it’s gonna be
        All right, all right, all right
        All right, all right, all right
        All right, all right, all right
        All right, all right

        – John Lennon

      2. Maybe Jeff can let me come live in his mansion, I’ll take the entire west wing, he won’t even know I’m there bc the place is so big, chances of running into a squatter, slim to none.

        1. I’m sorry, not squatter, but licensee….and guest, of course.

          Or maybe, I can adverse poss the joint…wonder what the statutory period is…so, squatter preferred. Yes, squatters rights.

    2. “I was apprehensive about him wearing the MAGA hat, because we know it can provoke and we know people don’t like Trump,” she explained. “But he wore the hat because he’s a proud 15-year-old and he doesn’t know what people are going to be like.”

      “My son was standing outside on the sidewalk and he said ‘have a nice night,’ he said it to everyone. But this man was triggered,” Campbell explained. “He said ‘f— you’ to him and wound up his hand as fast as he could and slapped him across the face.”

      Campbell said that a man, also wearing a MAGA hat, came over to intervene. According to Campbell, that man now has a fractured jaw.

      “He’s the sweetest kid,” Campbell said of her son. “He was so excited and not realizing that something like this could happen.”

      https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-hampshire-man-arrested-after-allegedly-assaulting-pro-trump-teen-polling-site

      #StopDemocratAssaultsOnTrumpTeens

  7. Since we are reading what Kelly said, let’s read a bit from his interview with NPR:

    Question from NPR about Trump: “How would you describe his intellect?

    “Very smart – a very, very smart guy. I mean a super smart guy. But I think it wouldn’t surprise you to know he’s very strong. He’s very strong in terms of trade, taxes, business and he’s a quick study on everything else. He’s a pretty bright guy.”

    NPR question with Kelly’s view of the press: “With your background valuing chain of command and military discipline, do you feel like you’ve brought some discipline and integrity to this inner circle?”

    “They overstate that, press covers that a lot. Again, I don’t mean to be too hard on the press but they — I know everything. Right? And so when I read the press accounts of what’s going on here, I say, “gee, how could they have gotten that that wrong?” So I think the press, and maybe it’s because only certain people talk and those people maybe leak or are sources — and maybe those people aren’t as honorable as they should be. But when I read what they write, I think to myself they may have had some low-level source and that’s — and to write a story like that — whatever “that” is for a major newspaper like the Post or the Times — to base it on almost rumor strikes me as being a little bit — not the way to do business.”

  8. Except for presidents, all other federal officials are governed by Title 5 US Code 3331, which pertains to loyalty to the U.S. Constitution (not presidents). Maybe Jonathan Turley can decipher what “other oaths required by law” means in 5 USC 3331. Article VI of the U.S. Constitution has never been amended, through constitutional amendment, so no other oaths can supersede Article VI’s constitutional oath. Secret oaths can’t supersede Article VI either.

  10. “Most of us support Vindman raising his concerns with the chain of command”
    __________________________________________________

    The problem is before he raised his concerns with the chain of command he went to either the non-whistle blower or the whistle blower’s handlers. Among other military officers, he had a reputation for regularly going outside of the chain of command.

    Vindman was upset that the president deviated from the talking points that he wrote. Actually, the president could have pulled a Pelosi and ripped up Vindman’s talking points in front of a room full of reporters. NSC staffers don’t set foreign policy — the president does.

    And when did the phrase nobody is above t/he law get changed to nobody is above the law unless they are running for public office? If Biden was not running would it be proper for the president to look into his family’s questionable business relationships? When his campaign finally crashes into Gaffe Mountain will it be appropriate to look into the Bidens then?

  11. The professor professes, “…
    This is a principled and reasonable view of one of our most respected military officers. [ U. S. General John F. Kelly ]
    …
    In comments at Drew University Wednesday night, Kelly said Vindman “did exactly what we teach them to do from cradle to grave. He went and told his boss what he just heard.” Kelly went on: “We teach them, Don’t follow an illegal order. And if you’re ever given one, you’ll raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order, and then tell your boss.” 

    War Crime Charges against U. S. General Kelly include, but are not limited to,

    “General Kelly’s aggressive oversight of the illegal military prison at Guantánamo Bay disqualifies him to head the Department of Homeland Security,” said the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR). “Presiding over a population of detainees not charged or convicted of crimes, over whom he had maximum custodial control, Kelly treated them with brutality. His response to the detainees’ peaceful hunger strike in 2013 was punitive force-feeding, solitary confinement, and rubber bullets. Furthermore, he sabotaged efforts by the Obama administration to resettle detainees, consistently undermining the will of his commander in chief…. Kelly’s recent vow to end ‘political correctness’ in U.S. national security policy is a thinly veiled endorsement of policies and practices that are illegal and immoral, including torture and racial and religious profiling.

    It was reported, “From 2011 until [February 2016], [Kelly] oversaw a command [United States Southern Command (SOUTHCOM)] whose recent misdeeds range from buying overseas sex with military money and circulating slur-filled emails about the commander in chief to sheltering a Chilean war criminal, plotting the Honduran coup, and putting guns in the hands of Colombian death squads.
    ”Kelly’s SOUTHCOM trained Colombian military officers at the Western Hemispheric Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), many of whom were involved in extrajudicial killings of civilians and other war crimes. Kelly is quoted saying, “Colombia has shown us the way.”

    John F. Kelly volunteered, “enlisted”, in the U. S. Marine Corp in 1970 to fight in Vietnam.

    The U. S. Congress did not declare war against “Vietnam.” Article 1, Paragraph 8, Clause 11. Consequently, the U. S. fought a War of Aggression in Vietnam.

    In other words, An illegal war fought under illegal order(s).

    The New York Times began publishing so-called Pentagon Papers on June 13, 1971.

    By 1969, the general public had been informed and understood that the so-called Tonkin Gulf incident had never happened. Additionally, by 1969, the general public had been informed and understood that the U. S. had been and was continuing to commit War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity including, but not limited to, carpet bombing, “shot on sight” (which was in practice shot on sound, if you were there; you knew), dropping “white phosphorus” (identified by 3 or 4 letter alphabet), murdering the democratically elected President of South Vietnam. This and more than 1 year before John F. Kelly volunteered, enlisted, to follow an Unconstitutional, violation of international law (created, written and prosecuted almost exclusively by the U. S.) and an “illegal” (immoral) order.

    dennis hanna

    1. Conversation

      Donald J. Trump
      @realDonaldTrump
      When I terminated John Kelly, which I couldn’t do fast enough, he knew full well that he was way over his head. Being Chief of Staff just wasn’t for him. He came in with a bang, went out with a whimper, but like so many X’s, he misses the action & just can’t keep his mouth shut,.
      10:04 AM · Feb 13, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
      13.2K
      Retweets
      52.4K
      Likes
      Donald J. Trump
      @realDonaldTrump
      ·
      3h
      Replying to
      @realDonaldTrump
      ….which he actually has a military and legal obligation to do. His incredible wife, Karen, who I have a lot of respect for, once pulled me aside & said strongly that “John respects you greatly. When we are no longer here, he will only speak well of you.” Wrong!
      Eugene Gu, MD
      @eugenegu
      ·
      3h
      Replying to
      @realDonaldTrump
      Trump talks about John Kelly like he’s is a jilted ex despite the fact that Trump always says he hires the best people.
      Eugene Gu, MD
      @eugenegu
      ·
      3h
      Trump wouldn’t have so many X’s if he was a good president and a good leader. But maybe that’s why he cheated on Melania while she was pregnant and got married three times.
      3 more replies
      Nick Jack Pappas
      @Pappiness
      ·
      3h
      Replying to
      @realDonaldTrump
      Maybe you should have had Michael Cohen pay him $130,000 from your campaign funds to keep his mouth shut.
      Nick Jack Pappas
      @Pappiness
      ·
      3h
      John Kelly isn’t perfect, but he bravely served his country while Trump stayed home with bone spurs.

      How could any veteran still support this coward in the White House?

  14. Back in October, the AP reported:

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Defying White House orders, an Army officer serving with President Donald Trump’s National Security Council testified to impeachment investigators Tuesday that he twice raised concerns over the administration’s push to have Ukraine investigate Democrats and Joe Biden.

    Read that again: “Defying White House orders…>/B>” that he would not testify. Officers do not get a choice of what orders they get to obey. The Supreme Court of the United States wrote in Parker v. Levy, 1974, “An army is not a deliberative body. It is an executive arm. Its law is that of obedience. No question can be left open as to the right of command in the officer, or the duty of obedience in the soldier.”

    The armed forces’ Manual for Court Martial, the instruction of how to implement the statutes of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, states plainly, “the dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order.”

    The Manual also puts a soldier’s obligation to obey this way: “An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate.”

    Yet Vindman disobeyed his order not to appear before Congress simply because he wanted to. His entire credibility is utterly shattered and his willful disobedience reveals him as a partisan hack in uniform.

    This officer is being hailed as a hero because he placed country above Trump etc. etc. as required by his oath of commissioning in which swore to “protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” His advocates skip right over the part where he also swore, “I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter….”

    I took the same oath of commissioning that Vindman took, and in my view he clearly violated it in doing what he did. The “duties of the office” absolutely include obedience to the orders of the President and officers within his chain of command, unless they are clearly and unarguably illegal. Difference of opinion does not count.

    According to his testimony, not once – not. one. time. – did he raise any Constitutional issue with the phone call or ever claim – again: not. one. time. – that Trump’s conversation ever constituted an illegal order to him that he had no choice but to refuse.

    All of Vindman’s dissent with the content of the phone call is over policy.

    “I was concerned by the call,” Vindman said, according to prepared remarks obtained by The Associated Press. “I did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen, and I was worried about the implications for the U.S. government’s support of Ukraine.”

    He has no authority as a military officer or as an NSC staffer to assess whether a policy position of the president is “proper.” He has absolutely zero authority to oppose a president’s position regarding US support of Ukraine or any other nation. Foreign policy belongs solely within the White House as advised by the State Dept. The NSC has no charter – and therefore neither does Vindman – for original formulation of US foreign policy.

    Vindman, or any other military officer, is completely free to disagree privately with administration policy or the orders he is given, I encountered that myself many times in my military career. But that means exactly bupkus. The “duties of the office” remain unchanged: to execute directives and orders and to carry out policy to the best of an officer’s ability.

    Vindman wrote, “I realized that if Ukraine pursued an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma, it would likely be interpreted as a partisan play which would undoubtedly result in Ukraine losing the bipartisan support it has thus far maintained. This would all undermine U.S. national security.”

    That is of course pure speculation. And even if entirely correct, it is irrelevant to the discharge of his duties. Let me emphasize again: Lieutenant-colonels do not set policy and absolutely have no business even considering “partisan politics” in the performance of their duties. That is literally not his problem.

    I am stunned that Gen. Kelly does not seem to understand this.

    1. Wait.

      The AP reports?

      AP can “report” propaganda and lies as material for indoctrination?

      I thought “journalism” was objective.

      AP is not objective or engaged in journalism.

  15. Approving a previously scheduled move to another assignment does not qualify. The REMF point of view notwhithstanding. Vindman was kept in place on an extension purely as a courtesy to the ongoing process. Once that was concluded the assignments and transfers system went back to business as usual. Now if they put him some place where he could continue to violate the weight control program that’s different but nothing to do with President Trump.

  16. Yes, he had every right to and should report up the chain of command if he feels he knew of something illegal. However, Vindeman went beyond that. He called people outside and passed on what amounted to classified materials to those he knew would also pass it on. Leaking classified material is a criminal act.

  17. While I agree that the call was obviously not an illegal order, if Vindman claimed it was so, then there is a chain of command in which to report it. It does not matter if Vindman’s accusation was sincere or politically motivated. Once he made it, there is a process to be followed. And military men and women know how to follow procedure. General Kelly would never say that such an accusation should be ignored. It was the process, not the merit, that was discussed.

    Similarly, President Trump was within his authority to transfer Vindman elsewhere.

    “Vindman is not a whistleblower. He’s an officer who attempted to usurp presidential leadership on Ukraine policy. He did not identify a rule, law, or regulation that the president violated. He was unable to identify any “crime” he thought the president might have committed. Vindman held a strong opinion that what the president did was “wrong” under Vindman’s conception of proper U.S. foreign policy.

    “My core function is to coordinate U.S. government policy,” Vindman testified. That’s wrong. The president is the focal point of all foreign policy.

    Perhaps the next president might seek Vindman’s policy expertise regarding Ukraine. But this president does not agree with Vindman’s conception of policy.”

    https://thefederalist.com/2020/02/11/why-trump-was-absolutely-right-to-boot-alex-vindman/

    Past predicts future. I do not believe that President Trump will restrain himself in telling everyone that he thinks General Kelly is wrong. I would wish that he would say that Kelly confirmed the proper procedure to make such complaints, rather than the merits. Or just remain quiet. But he will probably blast away on Twitter, as that is his nature. He will feel the need to defend himself and point out the facts of the case that exonerated him, but if he goes after Kelly himself that will be wrong. But it will probably happen anyway.

    I predict that future Presidents will learn from these Twitter fests and create a department expressly for holding and checking Tweets before they are posted. They do it for other communications like speeches. Twitter posts are just that – really short speeches.

    1. With a little luck, Twitter will end up being the end of Trump’s reign. He’ll say the wrong thing to the wrong person and either won’t be reelected or will be impeached — by the Senate, too.

      We all know that his call to Zalensky wasn’t a “perfect call” — no matter how many times he says it. He knows it, too, of course.

      1. twitter is an important utility which should allow equal access to all users who post non-obscene content.

        right now they are banning willy nilly those they dont like

        zerohedge published an article from a medical journal in India speculating that the Wuhan coronavirus was engineered. they banned zerohedge

        today i see that there’s a clip of Squawk Box when someone raises the prospect of possible weaponization to Eunice yoon. Squawk Box even mentioned the zerohedge ban. They havent banned Squawk Box and Eunice Yoon’s on fire with her China coverage. So is that fair?

        Twitter sucks, it’s like a pile of dung with diamonds buried inside

        1. That rumor is going around because as far as I know, China’s only P4 level lab is in Wuhan. No matter what the origin, we are not going to get accurate information from a quasi communist country.

          It turns out this outbreak occurred long before the government admitted it.

            1. there is no comparison between the public health officials of the USA and West in general, versus the system in the PRC. When it comes to infectious disease, we have been so very lucky, But, we have also been competent. What we have here is very transparent and public receives timely and accurate information. It is not perfect but it is very good.

              By contrast whatever is coming out of the PRC is going to be colored by the policies of the Communist Party of China. They are a state within the state. A government inside the government and a hidden one. They have their internal communications and policies and then their public pronouncements. It is just a totally different system.

              There are so many examples of this which occure even in the post-Mao era, too many to mention. But one example relates to the unsafe food. Remember all the baby formula tainted by melamine? Look that up. The gross dishonesty of their system operates at a level that’s unthinkable here.

              But yes of course the US has its perplexing public health scandals too. Generally these don’t have to do with infectious disease, however. And here we have that much hated breed called “Trial Lawyers” who help keep people honest and competent.

              In China if a doctor cuts off the wrong leg? Ooops, sorry. Good luck suing them for damages. In theory it can be done, in practice you might as well just ask them for a voluntary settlement because court won’t produce any better result.

              America is imperfect and there’s a lot to criticize but be thankful on this day that YOU have not been locked up for 3 weeks bored as hell, eating $25 heads of cabbage, and worrying if the virus is going to get you if you don’t die of boredom or run out of food first. That is the situation now for probably at least 100 million Chinese inside the quarantine zone. .

          2. From the NY Post: A North Korean official who returned from China has reportedly been executed for going to a public bath in violation of his quarantine – while experts express doubts about Pyongyang’s claim that the hermit kingdom doesn’t have a single case of the coronavirus.

            The trade official, who had been placed in isolation after traveling to China, was arrested and immediately shot for risking the spread of the deadly disease, the Dong-a Ilbo news outlet in South Korea reported.

            North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has vowed to “rule by military law” against anyone who leaves quarantine without permission.

            Meanwhile, an official at North Korea’s National Security Agency was exiled to work on a farm because he hid a recent trip to China, according to the UK’s Mirror.

            Some South Korean media outlets have reported several coronavirus cases and possible deaths from the illness in the North — but World Health Organization officials based in Pyongyang told the Voice of America that they have not been notified of any confirmed cases.

            North Korea has remained adamant that there have been no cases of coronavirus within its borders, though experts outside the reclusive country — which shares an 880-mile-long border with China — have met that assertion with a healthy dose of skepticism.

            “The North Korean authorities have told FAO that there are no cases of the new coronavirus, but we are suspicious of such claims,” Bir Mandal of the UN Food and Agriculture Organization told Korea Biomed, the Mirror reported.

            Harry Kazianis, director of Korean studies at the Center for National Interest, told Fox News that “there is no way that North Korea is not being impacted by the coronavirus.

            “They are clearly lying as they don’t want to show any weakness or that there is any threat to the regime,” Kazianis told the outlet. “Considering how there are many porous sections of the North Korea-China border — and how the Kim regime depends on illegal trade to survive — it is clear the virus has come to North Korea.”

            Last week, North Korean health ministry official Song In Bom told state media that there are no coronavirus cases in the country, but that they would be prepared in the event that the outbreak spread.

            People wearing face masks in Pyongyang
            Getty Images
            “Just because there is no case of the new coronavirus in our country, we should not be too relieved, but have civil awareness and work together for prevention,” he said, according to Reuters.

            But North Korea, with its dated health care system, is ill-equipped to handle the novel virus, according to aid workers.

            Kee Park, a lecturer at Harvard Medical School who has made multiple humanitarian trips to the impoverished country, said it would struggle to manage an outbreak.

            “Perhaps they can manage to detect and treat small numbers, but an outbreak could likely easily overload the health system,” Park told the South China Morning Post.

            “Critical medical supplies are hard to import and vital equipment is unable to be repaired due to the difficulty in procuring parts,” he said.

            Nagi Shafik, former project manager for the World Health Organization’s office in Pyongyang, said North Korean authorities would need supplies such as masks, antivirals and antibiotics.

            “I presume there are more items needed, especially when it comes to cleaning and sterilization,” Shafik told the news outlet.

            1. Olly,

              Most of my news feeds have went strangely quiet this week about the numbers of the Corona Virus.

              There’s a small piece, a hint, the USA/CDC is make some sort of move behind the scenes. Naturalnews.com

              Have you made your family’s location ready for quarantine? I haven’t.

              Will all know soon, good or bad.

  18. KELLY SAID MUCH MORE

    The former chief of staff also criticized the president’s attacks on certain media outlets – which Trump has often accused of being “fake news” and sought to sideline or restrict access to the White House – saying he did not view the media as “the enemy of the people”.

    “The media, in my view, and I feel very strongly about this, is not the enemy of the people. We need a free media,” he said, according to the Daily Record.

    Kelly continued: “That said, you have to be careful about what you are watching and reading, because the media has taken sides. So if you only watch Fox News, because it’s reinforcing what you believe, you are not an informed citizen.”

    Kelly also questioned Trump’s intervention in the case of Eddie Gallagher, the Navy Seal convicted of posing with the body of a dead Isis fighter. Trump quashed Gallagher’s demotion and then ordered the navy to drop the revocation of his special forces status, leading to the resignation of the navy secretary, Richard Spencer.

    The intervention, Kelly said, “was exactly the wrong thing to do. Had I been there, I think I could have prevented it.”

    Kelly said he took issue with Trump’s policies in a number of key areas. He said migrants to the US are “overwhelmingly good people” and “not all rapists” – a reference to comments Trump made about Mexican immigrants in 2015.

    “In fact, they’re overwhelmingly good people,” Kelly said. “They’re not all rapists and they’re not all murderers. And it’s wrong to characterize them that way. I disagreed with the president a number of times.”

    Edited From: “Ex-White House Chief Of Staff Kelly Speaks Out Against Trump”

    Today’s The Guardian

    1. Well, Kelly’s wrong. Jim Lehrer is dead, as is AM Rosenthal. The media are the enemy of justice and decency.

    2. Seth, don’t take what General Kelly said out of context. He did say, “We need a free media.” And we do. China does not have a free media. That is how Hong Kong can be wreathed in toxic smog but China calls it harmless fog.

      General Kelly also said, “They overstate that, press covers that a lot. Again, I don’t mean to be too hard on the press but they — I know everything. Right? And so when I read the press accounts of what’s going on here, I say, “gee, how could they have gotten that that wrong?” So I think the press, and maybe it’s because only certain people talk and those people maybe leak or are sources — and maybe those people aren’t as honorable as they should be. But when I read what they write, I think to myself they may have had some low-level source and that’s — and to write a story like that — whatever “that” is for a major newspaper like the Post or the Times — to base it on almost rumor strikes me as being a little bit — not the way to do business.”

      As for the leaks, Vindman himself leaked information.

  19. Vindman talked to his superior but he ALSO talked to someone outside the chain. Adam Schiff prevented him from revealing who he talked too. That, my friends, is a security violation.

  20. According to a radio host, John Kelly’s wife pulled President Trump aside and told him that “…when they are gone from the White House, John will only speak well of the President.”

    Kelly is not only a deceitful and treacherous employee, he is a liar.

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