Devouring Its Own: How Many On The Left Fostered The Violent Movement Now Rioting Across The Country

Antifa_The_Anti-Fascist_HandbookBelow is my column in The Hill newspaper on the role of familiar groups like Antifa in the violence following the death of George Floyd.  Attorney General Bill Barr acknowledged yesterday that there is a “witches’ brew” of groups fostering violations, including an anarchist group from the right. The anarchists on the left or right are opportunists who will strike at any time of unrest to seek the breakdown of order. While the number of Antifa arrests have been challenged as exaggerated, police are reporting a number of Antifa, radical left, and anarchist members arrested in various states. (here and here and here and here and here) These are groups that are all too familiar to some of us on college and university campus.  While I have opposed efforts to declare Antifa a terrorist organization, the role of all of these groups in the recent violence should be a cautionary tale for academics and politicians alike in the tolerance shown for such anti-free speech movements.  Many leaders and academics have denounced such groups on the right (some of which are also active in these riots), but notably have been more muted in condemning anti-fascist and left-anarchist groups.

Here is the column:

Ian Fleming famously lamented that history often moves so quickly that “heroes and villains keep on changing parts.” Our media and politicians are now struggling with the same problem today, following the killing of George Floyd. As rioting and looting continue across the country, the question is who to blame for the mayhem. Ultimately, the response was strikingly familiar and telling. Maybe white supremacists were behind it. Maybe the Russians were. It could be anyone except people in the rioting communities or, worse yet, groups lionized or tolerated by the left.

While most protesters remained peaceful, the narrative quickly spiraled glaringly out of sync with images of burning buildings in the background. Although “Today” show host Craig Melvin tweeted out a guide not to refer to them as rioters but rather as protesters, that narrative has since broken down. Indeed, news outlets have been reporting that “outsiders” have been fueling the rioting and that the destruction might be the work of nefarious groups of white supremacists or Russians.

Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and other officials there claimed a majority of those arrested were outsiders. Walz estimated the figure at 80 percent. National Urban League President Marc Morial ratcheted up the outrage in a cable news interview. He demanded an investigation to confirm “if it is white supremacists, if it is Russians, if it is other foreign actors who have tried to exploit the pain and exploit legitimate protests.”

It was manifestly implausible to suggest the rioting was the work of white supremacists or Russians. Arrest data showed a majority of those arrested in Minneapolis were from the city. The four people arrested in New York in fire bombing attacks were all state residents. The problem is that the most obvious culprits are all too familiar. A movement of anarchist, antifascist, and extreme left wing groups has been building for years, with violence from Washington to Berkeley. The most prominent is antifa, but there are also groups like By All Means Necessary with similar histories.

This is a broad movement, not one group, which makes the suggested designation by President Trump of antifa as a terrorist organization both constitutionally and practically dubious. However, the growing antifascist movement has attacked conservative speakers and events for years, with far less media attention than their right wing counterparts receive. Just as many critics have accused Trump of not doing enough to denounce extreme right wing groups, many Democratic leaders have been conspicuously silent in denouncing these antifascist groups.

Indeed, when Attorney General William Barr correctly observed that the rioting shows “antifa like tactics,” politicians and media figures both balked at the suggestion, as opposed to accepting the white supremacist or Russian option. Despite reports of antifa followers and anarchists being arrested, White House correspondent Yamiche Alcindor objected that there was “no evidence” of any activity sparked by anarchists.

Antifa, By All Means Necessary, and other militant or anarchist groups have disrupted universities across the country, including my own, for years. They have found many political and academic allies. Dartmouth Professor Mark Bray wrote a book on antifa, defining the movement as committed to the silencing of opponents and the rejection of classic concepts of free speech. The movement has since found open or passive acceptance with many on the academic left. In fairness, however, many Democratic politicians have denounced past violent attacks.

Yet despite its violent history, some Democratic leaders have been enablers or outright supporters of the antifa movement, insisting that such groups cannot be compared to extreme right wing groups. While criticizing antifa members three years ago, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi insisted the group has “been there forever” and that “some people may have infiltrated” it. This was not viewed as her Charlottesville moment of claiming there are “very fine people” in antifa. It was a commonly held view that antifascists are by definition better than fascists.

Other Democratic leaders have been much more direct in their support, including the former deputy chair of the Democratic Party, Representative Keith Ellison. Although Germany has banned an antifa website, Ellison posed with the antifa handbook to show support at a Minneapolis bookshop and said it would “strike fear in the heart” of Trump.

Ellison, now the Minnesota state attorney general, was under fire this week for telling protesters they should not attack the National Guard on the streets or “react to them the way you might react to the Minneapolis Police Department. Their job is to try to bring peace and calm back again.” His son Jeremiah Ellison, a Minneapolis city council member, declared support for antifa even as the city endured rioting and looting.

Meanwhile, some media coverage has the uncomfortable feel of a new type of Russia collusion theory. Susan Rice, former national security adviser to President Obama, said that she suspects Russia is behind the effort “to hijack those protests and turn them into something very different” and that “this is right out of the Russian playbook.”

It is likely that racist or foreign actors will try to exploit the unrest on the internet. The same was true, on a larger scale, with Russian interference in the 2016 election. While most of us denounced that Russian interference, it was never plausible that the work of a dozen internet trolls in Saint Petersburg or a dozen military hackers in Moscow had a measurable, let alone meaningful, impact on the outcome of the election.

The same is true with these protests. The rioting began due to deep seated and legitimate anger over police brutality and the tragic death of Floyd. Young people and others did not rush to the streets because they read a posting from some skinhead on the Stormfront website. Yet the references to white supremacists or Russians continued even as reports filtered in of antifa and anarchists being arrested in various cities.

Some politicians in the past sought to tap into the antifascist movement. Others completely avoided denouncing the group. After all, for years, the movement threatened or attacked conservatives. They were not treated as an outside element but rather as this grassroots movement outraged by Trump and his policies. However, the same tactics and likely some of the same people are now burning buildings and cars, attacking police officers and business owners, and destroying property across the country. This is why, during the French Revolution, the journalist Jacques Mallet Pan warned, “Like Saturn, the revolution devours its children.”

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can find his updates online @JonathanTurley.

248 thoughts on “Devouring Its Own: How Many On The Left Fostered The Violent Movement Now Rioting Across The Country”

  1. Today the senile said hopefully George Floyd is looking down from heaven and saying today is a great day for the country.

    “It’s a great day for him and it’s a great day for everybody,” he says.

    It’s time for him to go.

  2. There will not be any “Left” people on the ballot – but there will be Democrats.
    Democrats and other haters of Republicans are the ones supporting these riots, and fostering the violence.

    Starting with colleges that have long been secretly discriminating against hiring Republican professors, thru other schools (esp. Law School), all with the acceptance of demonizing Reps.

    It is Democrat Derangement Syndrome – and when Trump is off the political scene, the similar Dem DS will be on display against other Reps. Like the NYT against Rep. Tom Cotton.

    Muslims hate Jews today much like Nazis hated Jews, but US Dems are hating Reps that way.

    Notice in the comments here how many are against Prof. Turley saying anything other than “Dems good, Reps bad, baad, baad, baa.”

    America is going to go thru worse violence before it gets better.

  3. I am reminded of another chant I saw often:
    “Whose streets ?”

    Well, that’s what they think now. That’s what they have been doing. The streets, not the sidewalks, are “theirs” in their minds.

    PUT THEM DOWN. Prove to them their mental fantasy is in the minority. Prove to them the vast majority of US Citizens disagree.

    Protesting and spreading covid-19 like wildfire is ok so long as you’re occupying the streets, but not okay if you’re gathering in large crowds for anything else.

    They are criminal murderers, spreading covid-19.

    The death toll will be several million.

  4. Turley says “police are reporting a high number of Antifa and anarchist members arrested in various states,” but he doesn’t provide a link for his claim.

    And there’s evidence to the contrary for Antifa, such as this report from the FBI DC field office: “based on CHS [Confidential Human Source] canvassing, open source/social media partner engagement, and liaison, FBI WFO has no intelligence indicating Antifa involvement/presence.” ( )

      1. LOL. It’s a quote from the FBI. Surely you’re not suggesting that you will or won’t consider an FBI quote based on the publication doing the quoting, right?

        Do you think FBI data on this are reliable? If not, just whose statistics about this would you accept?

  5. J H Kunstler, liberal and nominal Democrat has another great article up today:
    To prove that America is hopelessly racist, the nation has been treated to, what — ? — seven, or is it now eight nights of looting and burning by young black people acting out every racist stereotype from the Ku Klux Klan official manual of racism. The rest of the news media bent over backwards to avoid deploring the mayhem in the streets, rather, to invert the very looting, burning, and rioting as proof positive that America is racist to the bone. Look what you made us do! Steal sneakers and Rolex watches! Shoot cops, including an old retired black cop (uh, my bad) and run over several more cops with cars! Destroy businesses large and small that have been shut down for three months by corona virus to make sure they won’t ever dare to resume their racist trade in things that white people like!

    Has anyone detected a hustle in the past week’s dire proceedings? Well, how would you define a hustle? How about: an attempt to gain advantage by deceitful means. What! Are you saying there was something dishonest about the reaction from sea to shining sea to George Floyd’s murder in Minneapolis? I am. For example, the massive protest marches. Who exactly was disputing that the death of George Floyd was a miscarriage of justice? Nobody. Did the cops get away with it? No, they’re all getting indicted for murder or being accessories to a murder by standing around watching it and doing nothing to stop it.

    No, this is a hustle, all right, perhaps the most obvious hustle in US history. It’s the Democratic Party’s last stratagem to get the monster of its own creation, Donald Trump, out of the White House. RussiaGate didn’t do it (in fact, it’s backfiring rather horribly now), ImpeachmentGate was a dud. Welcome to GeorgeFloydGate! I know it’s hard to imagine at this moment of maximum televised sanctimony, but this gambit is going to flop, too. A lot of voters have probably noticed that the wholesale looting and burning of US cities is not in the national interest. And that the people who do it don’t deserve special favors.

    Joe Biden’s campaign has announced that he will headline the next funeral in George Floyd’s hometown of Houston, the place where Mr. Floyd accomplished the home invasion and aggravated robbery of a woman in 2009 that sent him to state prison for five years. (He was turning his life around in Minneapolis where, ten days ago, he suffered a lapse of judgment while high on fentanyl and passed a counterfeit $20 bill in a corner store, leading to his arrest and unjust death.) I’m counting on Joe Biden to raise America’s awareness about systemic racism at that event — if he can remember where he is and what’s going on.

    Also on Thursday this week, the Rev. Al Sharpton announced plans for a march on Washington in August, perhaps just before the Democratic convention in Milwaukee for maximum effect. You may be aware that Joe Biden has obliged himself (sort of) to put a woman-of-color on the ticket for vice-president. Though Stacey Abrams, the real governor of Georgia, seems like the inevitable choice, I have a better idea. Wouldn’t it be perfect to bring back Tawana Brawley for this historic role? She figured so decisively in establishing the Rev. Mr. Sharpton’s cred as leader in the long quest for social justice. She’s all growed-up now and ready to rock! Tawana Brawley, America turns its lonely eyes to you! #Tawana Brawley for veep! Spread the news far and wide!
    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  6. Turley used the phrase “the Left”, and brought up “Antifa”. I no longer doubt that he’s on the payroll. These are Fox News talking points. I feel compelled to point out that with Turley using his credentials as a shill for the most-corrupt person ever to occupy the White House, and with Michael Avenatti and Kellyanne Conway as graduates, your law school isn’t looking so good these days.

    Meanwhile, the fat Dotard called a “news conference” that was a campaign rally, complete with the repeated lie about taking credit for “creating the greatest economy in the history of this country”, with bobble heads standing behind him, bobbing their heads. He tries to pretend that we don’t have a COVID-19 pandemic any more, and his “administration” tried to lie about tear gassing peaceful protesters, which included Episcopalian clergy, all so he could pose for a vainglory campaign photo with a Bible, to reel in the Evangelicals.

    Truth is, the fat slob can’t stand it when he’s not the center of attention each and every day, and yesterday’s news cycle covered the family memorial service for George Floyd with a very moving eulogy by Rev. Al Sharpton. Predictably, the obese narcissist had to do something to recapture attention– hence today’s campaign rally, full of self-congratulations for a job well done, taking credit for a vaccine that is not yet available (and which may never be), lying about preventing deaths by banning travel from China (even though 40K people came in from China after the “ban), blaming China for the pandemic, trying to re-name the Coronavirus as the “China Virus”, and blaming Europe for the pandemic he mishandled.

    That was all of the campaign rally I could stand to watch.

    1. Natacha, your intelligence really shows in your opinion. You can disagree with someone without the grade school rhetoric. But, if you only have a 6th grade education, then I forgive you.

      1. Characterised by large heads, short tails, and powerful bills and feet, nuthatches advertise their territory using loud, simple songs.

      2. “Natacha, your intelligence really shows in your opinion . . . ”

        Characterised by large heads, short tails, and powerful bills and feet, nuthatches advertise their territory using loud, simple songs.

    2. Oh, I forgot to add Billy Barr to the list of “distinguished?” lawyers associated with Turley’s school. Recently, the faculty brought up the issue of stripping Barr of some honorary degree or another, but that didn’t happen. He does have a JD from there, however.

  7. Two Thirds Of America Believes Trump Has Increased Racial Tensions

    As the country erupts in protests over police brutality and racism, two-thirds of Americans think President Trump has increased racial tensions in this country, according to a new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll.

    The poll offers a snapshot of a nation in upheaval after a video captured a Minneapolis police officer with his knee on the neck of a black man named George Floyd, who was pleading for his life before he died.

    Overall, 67% said Trump has mostly increased racial tensions, including 92% of Democrats, 73% of independents, 88% of Africans Americans and 63% of whites.

    Just 18% said he has decreased tensions, including 41% of Republicans. In fact, almost 6 in 10 Republicans believe he has either increased tensions (29%) or they’re not sure (30%). That’s a finding the pollsters see as significant given how in lockstep Republicans have been with Trump on nearly everything.

    “It’s very unusual to see Republicans break when the name Trump is presented, but that is the case here,” said Lee Miringoff, director of the Marist Institute for Public Opinion, which conducted the poll.

    The survey of 1,062 adults was conducted Tuesday and Wednesday, after Trump’s walk to St. John’s Church in Washington, D.C., ahead of which law enforcement forcibly removed peaceful protesters. Also that Wednesday, retired Marine Gen. Jim Mattis, Trump’s first defense secretary, released a statement criticizing the president.

    Edited from: “Poll: Two Thirds Think Trump Made Racial Tensions Worse After George Floyd’s Death”

    Today’s NPR

    1. So what ?

      2/3 of the country could beleive in UFO’s.

      58% of the country wants the NG called in

      At the same time it is quite clear that any increase in racial tensions has nothing to do with Trump.

      For all the mess at this particularly moment.
      We STILL leave in the least racist country at the least racist moment in history (except tomorow).

      I can have sympathy for the Floyd’s, I can support the prosecution of these officers. I can support SOME calls for police reform, and still grasp that if you are black you are 700 times more likely to be killed by another black man than a police officer.
      That only 10 unarmed black’s were killed by police in 2019 and in 4 cases the police were charged, that 18.5 times as many police officers are killed by armed black men each year as unarmed black men are killed by police.

      10 is too high a number – but then it has been declining for 4 decades – we must be doing something right.

      But lets assume hypothetically that the police in st. paul/mineapolis are racist out the whazzo, and are murding blacks like Floyd every day.

      What has Trump got to do with it ?

      This is a blue city – with falling over the left edge of the world democrats running it.
      In a blue state with a blue AG and a blue governor.

      There is not a republican in 100 miles of the Floyd murder.

      In fact is there a single purportedly racist incident in the country that has occured in a Red community ?

      Get your own house in order.

      1. what’s wrong with believing in UFOs? Go watch the declassified tapes the US Navy has released in the past year of pill-shaped bogeys flying around teasing F-16s and aircraft carriers at mach 20 and making 90% turns at high speed and then vanishing. Pray tell me what human technology allows that?

        none, that’s right.

        John, it’s the 1/3 who dont believe in UFOs that hasn’t been paying attention

        1. I am a pilot. I believe in UFOs, Unidentified Flying Objects. The key word is ‘Unidentified’. I do not think they are aliens. I once saw an object that was maneuving strangely at different speeds and thought, “What in hell is that?” Turned out it was a balloon. My default position for the unexplained is ‘unexplained’. I do not jump to aliens or the supernatural.

          1. sure, unidentified. except we are not talking about balloons here nor experimental aircraft

            i think it’s safe to assume that if the US had some kind of very advanced aircraft that could do what these bogeys did, they would not be buzzing US aircraft and fighter jets for fun


            I dont know what they are but they are not natural terrestrial phenomena, they show the obvious signs of being created by some intelligence, and that would necessarily be a beyond-human intelligence

            it could be that 99.9% of all UFO- or “UAP’ as they call them now have some explanation but it’s that one tenth of one percent that is interesting.

            nice way to solve the Fermi paradox by the way. Where are they? Right there, dude! No more paradox.

            1. Kurtz: “I dont know what they are but they are not natural terrestrial phenomena.”

              How do you know that? You are imputing ‘beyond human intelligence’ to something that you admit is unidentified.

              This is exactly the same approach people used to explain unknown phenomena as God or ghosts. How do you know these UFOs aren’t ghosts or God at work? God, ghosts and aliens work in mysterious ways apparently.

              The distances are vast and unlikely to be travelled to a nondescript speck in the universe. I am comfortable with the fact that there are many things I can’t explain and to leave it at that.

              Remember Crop Circles? People still believed aliens made them even after a couple of farmers admitted they did them and demonstrated the tool they used to do it.

          1. John Say– Apparently skepticism is intolerable. More fun, try telling a believer that the Egyptian pyramids were not built by aliens. In one instance I finally resorted to this. Okay, aliens travelled light years across the universe to show Egyptians how to stack rocks? Why not show them something useful like air conditioning? I bet air conditioning would be nice in the Sahara. No answer to that one, just a sheepish smile.

            1. I like that.

              I do not know if we are alone in the universe. but absent Faster than Light Travel it does not matter.

              And what planet capable of traveling thousands of light years, is going to think of egyptions as anything more than ants ?

              To any form of life capable of reaching us we are ? Food ? Prey ?

              1. John– I think it unlikely we are alone. Life started on Earth almost as soon as it was cool enough to survive. That suggests, but doesn’t prove, that the emergence of life is a fairly high probability event. I would not be surprised if we found it elsewhere in the solar system.

                Complex life might also be fairly probable, evolution works everywhere and competition for resources is likely to call up more efficient forms.

                Civilization is something I can’t guess, but there are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy and, I think’ about 200 billion galaxies in the universe. It should be no surprise if there are other civilizations. Coming here is unlikely. It is about 100,000 light years across the Milky Way alone and nobody is going to travel at the speed of light. The doppler effect on ordinary sunlight coming directly to the ship would cause the light to be hard gamma rays. Unless a different way of traveling is found our planet is a lonely stop in a very, very big desert.

                1. I do not know about the odds. My understanding the that the probability of a single simple protein developing randomly is so infinitestimal that even with the universe as large as it is we are still a huge anomaly.
                  That does not preclude the process being far less random.
                  It is also my understanding that since the discovery of DNA there has been an undercurrent science recognizing that life by pure chance is unlikely.
                  Regardless, even if the odds of life elsewhere are high – absent physics that we just do not have today, we can not reach it, it can not reach us, and we can not even communicate without thousands of years per each exchange.

                  1. John– Many organic chemicals have been found in space and recently an extraterrestial ptotein was found in a meterorite it is believed. Precursor compounds for life are seeded thtoughout the universe. The formation of proteins is probably not so unlikely as you may have heard.

        1. “Trump Gave Police Permission to Be Brutal”

          “The president didn’t cause America’s policing crisis, but he deliberately made it worse.”

          by Adam Serwer

          JUNE 3, 2020

          “Just as his supporters mistake cruelty for honesty and bluster for courage, Trump has mistaken bloodlust for leadership. The bombast hides the fundamental truth that the president is a coward, so crippled by the fear of appearing weak that he screams for blood from the safety of his darkened White House, emerging only to gas peaceful protesters and clergymen in an attempt to look strong. He is incapable of understanding how further brutality fuels the unrest he has proved incompetent at confronting.

          “Donald Trump proclaimed himself the law-and-order candidate. This is what law and order without justice looks like: a nation without law, order, or justice.”

          1. And yet according to WaPo the best source on police misconduct. Police violence has been on a long term downward trend.

            Left wing nuts are constantly hearing dog whistles from anything not on the left.

            The problem is – no one else hears them.

            Trump and other republicans are purportedly speaking in code to the alt-right, police, ….

            Yet the only people who hear are on the left.

            Apply the same ludicrous standards to those on the left and you are all clearly a bunch of racist thugs.

            I guess Trump should have asked the police to shoot them in the leg.

          2. “The president didn’t cause America’s policing crisis, but he deliberately made it worse.”

            There were lots of BLM riots in 2016, you know, when Obama was president. These claims pretty much make it a draw on the issue.

            1. Partisan Democrats in the media know how to produce verbiage. Thinking critically about the spew they produce is a skill they haven’t mastered.

    2. Trump has not caused polarization any more than did Barack Obama. Both only recognized what already exists. We are becoming 2 separate, Balkanized peoples and have been for a long time. People who cannot stand one another and would get divorced, if a married couple. I welcome such a divorce and hope it can be accomplished by peaceful means.

      For all of its problems, pre-immigration act 1965 America was a nation. Not perfect by any means but a nation nonetheless. I am afraid today’s multicult mess will only be kept together by increasing force (if at all) as were multi-ethnic nations such as the USSR and Yugoslavia were. Explains the need for increased speech regulations, militarization of police, etc., have to keep it all in check.

      Lefties, I am afraid that despite all of the constant slogans (i.e. “diversity is a strength”) it doesn’t make it so. FORCED DIVERSITY IS A WEAKNESS and will always be so. Denying this is akin to stopping Iguazu Falls.


    3. LAUGHING!
      “…The survey of 1,062 adults was conducted Tuesday and Wednesday, after Trump’s walk to St. John’s..”

      There’s the level of honesty we can expect from libtards.

  8. Bernie and Trump sitting in a tree. Each looking down and peeing on me.
    I throw up a rock. Hit Bernie in the cock. That MF chased me fifty blocks.

  9. Don’t see any prevalence in the rioters of any political inclination other than anarchy. Don’t see any Latinos among the anarchists, who appear to me to be white in white neighborhoods and black in black neighborhoods.

    Don’t pick on just one so-called organization; that’s prejudice, yes?

    1. There is no rioting–another Fox News/Trump talking point: equating peaceful protesters, which are the overwhelming majority, with looters, to detract from the opposition of the protesters against police violence. They aren’t the same, and you, Turley, know better. No one approves of the looting.

      Turley, why not address the Dotard tear gassing peaceful protesters, to clear a path for him through Lafayette Park, after it was revealed that he hides in a bunker like the effeminate coward he really is, so he could look macho strutting up to St. John’s church, posing with a Bible? Of course, there were about 35 men, armed with assault rifles on every rooftop and in trees. Then, address the lying about using tear gas–calling it a “smoke bomb”. By definition, when a chemical agent causes respiratory irritation and conjunctivitis, and is used to disperse a crowd, it is “tear gas”.

      1. Just a week ago, we saw thousands of “right wing nazi’s” armed to the teeth with “assault weapons” protesting in capitals across the country.

        no looting, no burning, no one killed, no one injured. ni a hair on a police officer ruffled, no national guard.

        That is what a peaceful protest is like.

        When you can manage as well no one will call it a riot.

      2. The tear gas story is “fake news”.
        As is the claim that Trump requested the park cleared.

        Covered persons get no choice when the Secret Service decides they are going to be secured. they can kick and scream or go peacefully, but even the president of the united states can not say no to the secret service.

        1. It is a fact John. I saw it in real time – Barr spent 10 minutes behind police lines scouting and directing and later admitted it. Highly unlikely the AG has the actual authority to direct usage of city parks, but he still did it. Yes it was tear gas by another name. By the way, they were not SS.

          1. Get your criminal skum off the streets, or our law enforcement of any level will do it.
            It’s simple.
            Heck,I did it.

          2. Yes, Bar admitted to clearing the park – on his own.

            I have no idea whether the policing of DC falls under the AG.
            It absolutely falls under the executive. DC and military bases are the only place the federal government has police powers.

            Next, you appear to be an intelligent person. how about clearer sentences ?

            “By the way, they were not SS.”

            They ?

            1. “Covered persons get no choice when the Secret Service decides they are going to be secured….”

          3. And, we’re still waiting for Esper to disclose who directed the use of National Guard helicopters to fly low over protesters to intimidate them.

        2. I was in Burbank parking riding the shuttle to the terminal when Obama landed and then left in one of three big military helicopters to go to a fundraiser. The shuttle had to stop in the middle of the road. The entire airport seemed to freeze in place until Obama was further along the way to his dinner. They normally go to extremes.

    2. There are ANTIFA in Mexico. there’s a clip of one lighting a mexican cop on fire yesterday

      I am not aware of ANTIFA in the US having much hispanic representation. it’s mostly white punks with tracks from their arms from needles, bad teeth, deranged young women with purple hair, that sort of garbage

      that’s not to say that Mecha or la raza type organizations won’t kick off a riot if it suits them. They have and they will again if they can and the price is right. Ooh, was I suggesting there were financial inducements to riot?

      Lots of them, many different kinds. Follow the money! and not just the chance to loot new sneakers. that’s the least of it!

      corporate donations to BLM and that sort of group: THAT’S THE PAYOFF FOR THIS RIOT

      look it up, they’r already bragging about it in the news. idiotic corporations, idiotic people who think this had anything to do with “justice” at all

      1. La Raza and MEChA are Chicano organizations. Biggest issues for them is the establishment of Aztlan in the US Southwest from territories “stolen” as a result of the Mexican-American War. Not anti-white per se, more anti-US imperialism (as they see it).

        I read their materials both in English and Spanish sometimes. Not my ethnicity, struggle or belief system.

        Interesting that Latin society is in many ways what leftists claim America is – very masculine oriented (“toxic masculinity”), very non-PC, non-egalitarian, no official bilingualism, not tolerant of homosexuals, feminism, etc., but I suspect American leftists will give them a pass anyway because it is not perceived as a white society (though there are many “white hispanics”).

        I can assure any leftists reading this, a Latin oriented society will have little tolerance for BLM shenanigans, riots and liberation led by the brave masked warriors of the antifa let alone feminism or multiculturalism. And they don’t care if you call them a slur!

        BTW – not a fan of the Latin Kings but it was heartwarming to see them defend their neighborhoods in Chicago against rioters. Let the rioters and antifa attack the Lakefront liberals.


    3. “Don’t see any prevalence in the rioters of any political inclination other than anarchy. Don’t see any Latinos among the anarchists …”
      I’m changing your name to Dr. Anecdotal. DOJ has boots on the ground and better intel than some piker watching it on TV a world away.

    4. David– You have a point. For the last couple of decades there has been an astonishing lack of curiosity as to just who in the hell these people are and who is supporting them.

      One indication of sentiment can be seen in whom they attack. In San Jose they attacked people coming from a Trump rally, partly with the cooperation of the San Jose police, for which they are being sued. Safe to say they aren’t Trump supporters.

      In universities they mostly attack conservative speakers, often with the support of faculty and administration who identify as ‘progressive’. Safe to say if someone from the Castro family came to speak at Berkeley nobody would attack him.

      The current mix in the street is harder to pin down. I think organized crime is behind some of the looting. Others are just young men who enjoy chaos in any form. But, it is hard to avoid the notion that Antifa is where they say they are: in the streets destroying things.

      The politicians have been feckless. They held back and now that they are looking at smoking ruins they can’t count the price on their fingers and toes. Already Mayor Lightfoot of Chicago is begging Walmart [thought Democrats hated Walmart] to please come back and sweep up the ashes and build a new store they can loot. Many stores will not survive or rebuild. Maybe the mayor can invest her money and build a nice little store in the ‘hood. I doubt she is smart enough to run a business though.

      For the most part this catastrophe for the cities is a Progressive catastrophe and they have been working toward it for a long time.

  10. America is no longer “The Beautiful”. On the right we have Nazis. On the left we have Commies. The middle is a muddle.
    Bye, bye, Miss American Pie. Drove the Chevy to the lever but the lever was dry.

    1. I don’t see many nazis; I see a lot of left-wing types trying to squelch debate by labelling any one disagreeing with them as “nazis,” but actual nazis are either extinct or they’re laying so low they might as well be extinct.

      I think you have a better chance of seeing bigfoot than the elusive nazi.


    “While most of us denounced that Russian interference, it was never plausible that the work of a dozen internet trolls in Saint Petersburg or a dozen military hackers in Moscow had a measurable, let alone meaningful, impact on the outcome of the election”.

    Where does Turley get the word ‘dozen’ here?
    It seems he’s acknowledging Russian interference while minimizing it to just a ‘dozen’ trolls. How cynical of him!

    In reality the troll army was more like ‘dozens’. It’s a cheap form of non-violent warfare. Just hire dozens of cynical geeks to sit around in cubicles misinforming the West through Social Media and Public Forums.

    I have no doubt that Russian trolls are regular participants on this forum.

    1. Spasiba Tovarishe! What do you have against Russians, Seth? Is this a form of ethnic bigotry? Da, of course it is!

      Anyhow the Russian troll phenom is real, but really small.

      The Chinese wumao bot and volunteer army is also real, but really big

      Size matters!

      1. Kurtz, your reply here is all we see from Trumpers. The idea is to make liberals the ‘bigots’. This tactic probably comes from an Ann Coulter book.

        So according to you anyone acknowledging Russian trolls is really a ‘bigot’ against nice Slavic people. What a convenient stunt to dismiss Russian interference!

        Meanwhile we’re supposed to boil with rage against the Chinese. But that isnt bigoted only because Trump is desperate to blame his problems on China.

        1. Have you ever heard of Voice of America ?

          The US has a long tradition of “influencing” the politics of other countries.
          Hillary fomented a coup in the Ukraine. The US orchestrated a Coup in Iran that has wreaked havoc in the mideast for 75 years.
          JFK blessed the assassination of Diem.

          Finding US meddling in other countries is trivial

          If the Russians are going to post stupid memes on Facebook who gives a frack ?

          Sorry Seth I do not consider free speech and bad persuasion an act of war.

        2. Actually it’s not about bias against Slavics. America is full up of Polish folks, who are really decent and good people on the whole, but who nurse ethnic grievance against Russians.

          None the least of which was Zbig Breshinsky and his cute daughter Mika. Surely you know who that is. Zbiggy has been praising decades of needless geopolitical adventuring against Russia in a blatant example of personal bias against a hated ethnic enemy.

          See for folks who dont know what Im talking about, Polish people were conquered about ten different times by Russia, who ill treated them. They won’t let it go! Drag their ancestral beefs to our shores. And tell me if Im wrong when I say in places like Chicago Polish have been the backbone of the Democratic party.

          For the most part again, fantastic people and I love so many of them, but they got a beef with Russia. This is not America’s problem. And Poland is already annexed into NATO and part of our ongoing expansionist agenda against the ever shrinking Russia

          But guess who likes the US harrying Russia? China, yeah, China does. Better believe they love it. That’s why we made nice with Chou En Lai in the first place. But that’s a strategy that’s outlived its usefulness and probably should be not only abandoned, but reversed.

          I dont want Americans to boil with rage against Chinese. I never once said that. About 20 times i made a careful and fact based distinction between Chinese people worldwide, who come in all political opinions and forms, and the PRC and the CCP. And I’ve even been nuanced in my treatment of various aspects of CCP policy and actions.

          Don’t drag me into your bogus narrative that DJT is “blaming Chinese.” if anything you should apologize to me for that smear. I’m actually very partial to Chinese people as such.

          Now, let me throw a little more nuance on to this. Personally I really like Chinese people and much prefer them to Vietnamese people. Quite a bit and I have been around both quite a bit. But the PRC is an adversary of the US and the communist Vietnamese government is now rather more like an ally. I can recognize this in a conversation about geopolitics and set my personal likes and dislikes aside.

          I also quite dislike Turks, but Turks are part of NATO and probably for all their troublemaking, a net asset in America’s geopolitical lineup. I could say precisely the same thing about Saudis. I havent yet met a Saudi or Kuwaiti I liked, and I have yet to meet a Syrian I DIDN”T like. And yet, the adversaries of America are who they are.

          let’s not get too tangled up in personal preferences where public policy for America is concerned. That’s my point about all your Russia Russia Russia whining. It is indeed a form of bigotry which is to say, letting your preferences affect better judgment on a subject calling for more impartiality.

          1. You’re putting too much into it. Peter couldn’t find Russia or China on a map and knows nothing of them. He’s just retailing the day’s talking points.

        3. “But that isnt bigoted only because Trump is desperate to blame his problems on China.”

          You managed to cram a lot of incoherence into your brief post. Among reasonable people it should be possible to attribute to “China” anything in the bulky file of the misdeeds of the regime ruling over that great, but unfortunate people without fear of being called a racist.

    2. The entire Russian Troll Farm is not that large, Technically it is private – money from a Putin connected oligarch and the vast majority of its activities are in Russia not the US.

      There is lots of need for Russian political trolls in Russia.
      Putin cares far more about his own elections and that of his henchmen than Getting Clinton elected – which we now know was the actual goal.

      And have you actually seen any of their work ?

      No one was influenced by these guys.

      But lest say that hundreds of thousands of voters were influenced by russian Trolls.

      What distinguishes them from my grandmother who always voted for the most handsome candidate ?

      Did the russians put guns to anyone’s head ?

      You can not stop free speech on the internet.
      I know that concept disturbs you, and you have not grasped it yet.

      But keep trying. You can divide the world into left twitter and right twitter.

      But you can not silence voices you do not like. Not even russian trolls.

      1. “No one was influenced by these guys.”

        John, given the number of Trump marks, that is inoperative.

        1. “John, given the number of Trump marks, that is inoperative.”

          If you are going to use a word be sure you know what it means.

          HAve you found a single Trump voter who saw the Russian FB adds – did anyone see them before the election ? And will tell you “damn, but for the picture of Bernie Sanders in the creepy Superman suit, I would have voted for Clinton” ?

          1. John, of course it is a physical impossibility for me or anyone to survey everyone who saw FB posts. Therefore the analysis must be by logic/ Given the level of gullibility necessary for most to vote for Trump (some others may have made a cold calculation based on their anticipated tax cut), it follows that the odds are high that ridiculousness of the postings was not disqualifying for many.

            1. I did not ask for everyone.
              I asked for ANYONE.

              And logic says if you can not find ANYONE whose acknowledges changing their vote as a result of ludicrously stupid FB posts that almost no one saw until after the election and almost half of which were pro Hillary. then there is no way this flipped 10 votes much less 2.5M

              And that is the actual red/blue shift in the rust belt from 2012 to 2016.

              That is the effect you are actually looking for. 2.5M

              1. John, in brief you proposed a nonsensical and impossible survey rather than employing fairly simple and straight forward logic, so I’ll let you do it . Just survey all Trump voters in those states and ask if they were swayed by Russian trolls. Given 77k votes swung Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, I’ll admit defeat even if you find 76k who admit to such a thing. 77K+ and I win – OK? Honor system?

                By the way 2.5M is completely and utterly irrelevant to the fact that the loser is in the WH . That 77k is the relevant number.

                1. I proposed that you find ANYONE.
                  2.5M voters flipped blue to red in the rust belt.

                  Find ONE that did so because of Russian FB adds.

                  This whole debate is stupid.

                  Everyone sane grasps there are NONE.

                  The 2.5M is irrelevant ?
                  Because you say so ?

                  Trump had to flip 2.5M votes in the rust belt.

                  Are you saying that he flipped 2.42M by policies, but to get that last 77K he went to the Russians – not Cambridge analytics ?
                  What is deeply disturbing is that you and the MSM managed to sell half the country on this idiocy for 3 years.

                  And you call Trump voters stoopid ?

            2. Wow voters made a cold calculation based on anticipated tax cuts.

              Do some voters not make cold calculations based on say free college ? M4A ?
              Free everything under the sun ?

            3. “it follows that the odds are high that ridiculousness of the postings was not disqualifying for many.”

              It does ? How would that be ?

              You promised logic – that is verifiable premises, and arguments that follow the approx 3 dozen rules of propositional logic.

              Lets break it down

              “it follows”
              Follows what ?

              “the odds”
              what odds ?

              “are high”
              How high

              Regardless you have leapt to probability not logic.

              Is that “Modus Pollens” or “Monty Python”

              “not disqualifying for many”.

              So your conclusion is that some unknown number or people did not just laugh.

              “Orville, Somebody just posted Hillary as Mr. Potato Head, Hurry, We gota vote for Trump!”

              The entire Trump russia nonsense was ludicrously stupid from the start.

              You did not need to be CIA or NSA or FBI – who ALL actually – contra the bogus ICA that has been sold for years, properly determined that Putin would not want a president whose policies accross the board would be bad for Russia.
              Trump promised to build pipelines. release the fracken, regain US energy independence. strengthen the military. A long list of Putin’s nightmares.
              Or Putin could favor the nitwit that gave him the crimea.

              Next, the entire Trump Russia nonsense postulates that Trump and his time of “stable geniuses” – you know Manafort, Cohen, Papadoulis, Page, are all actually james bond on steroids. The NSA was spying on them, CIA, MI6, FBI, Even Mueller,and all the media in the world and they are so incredibly good at spycraft that nobody has been able to find a single link. To flip the election, there would have had to be massive coordination, and the best you got is that some Manafort employee was unbenownst to him an asset for both Russia and the FBI ?

              And beyond the fact that they had to be so good they would not get caught, you alos have to have Trump a Multibillionaire prepared to engage in this massive amount of work, that would near certainly blow up in his face for what ? a Bunch of really crappy FB adds ?

              How stupid do you think Trump is ?
              Cambridge analytics was a phone call away.
              Rather than risk life in federal prison for garbage, wouldn’t Trump drop a couple of million on CA and ask them to LEGALLY do the job WELL ?

              But I can tell you why left wing nuts think Trump colluded with Russia.

              Because Hillary did, and they would.

              Every left wing nut accusation leveled at Trump is just the left;s assumption that Trump would do just what they would.

              After all who had the FBI, CIA, NSA spying on political campaigns ? Not to mention reporters and senators.

      2. do i smell a limperterian? grow up John,. individualism is a dead end. what we need now is the PHALANX which requires group coordination and not a lot of isolated people milling about aimlessly

        just when it’s utterly obvious Republicans and conservatives need to toughen up and get more coordinated, here comes somebody to advocate for limited government and some discredited Enlightenment garbage

        there’s only 4 areas of power that matter.

        1. finance
        2. government
        3. mass media
        4. education

        each and every one of those is a field of operation won only by concerted joint action. not individuals running amuck aimlessly

        so far regular law abiding people have lost control of everything but government itself. it’s the last and only tool to staunch the bleeding wounds of civil society. hell even finance now is totally in debt to the Federal Reserve. but here comes another limperterian with some 18th century delusions to peddle.

        there’s hope for you yet John. I used to be naive, too. Wise up fast while you can still help instead of miring the debate in ideological fantasies

        1. Yeah John, the modern thinkers in the GOP, like Kurtz are up to early 20th century “blood and soil” politics.
          You know, because how much he suffers living in modern America.

        2. Just to take one of your fallacies, when has ‘limperterian” had sympathy for the federal reserve? And what exactly is the “conservative” Republican party doing about it?

          1. Steve. I’ll tell you when a limperterian had sympathy for it.

            When Allan Greenspan took over the whole thing. How about that?

            Now, don’t tell me he wasnt a liberterian. There’s little shade of difference between ‘liberterians” and “objectivists.” there would hardly be any “liberterian” anything if it wasnt for Ayn Rand. Greenspan’s mentor.

            Now, Wall Street is also filled with “Von Mises” fans who are all saying “we’re all MMT now”

            ie modern monetary theory. yes. it’s now 100% all on board for the Fed.

            ________________ next issue. “blood and soil” versus atomized individualism,.

            yes book is teasing but if I had to choose being rooted over atomized, being part of a society versus a cowboy out on the plains, I choose rootedness and belonging and a social existence versus being a hermit.

            Let’s go deeper.

            The problem with all Lockean limited government stuff is that it fails to grasp the essential political nature of all government and the very essence of politics itself. That is this: who is in the “polis” and who is outside of it. The fundamental distinction which underlies all politics is that of the ally and adversary. The citizen and non-citizen.

            Now book can mock me if he likes but yes this was elaborated by a NSDAP member the eminent jurist Carl Schmitt. I will keep on recommending his works here and you can go find them on university syllabuses too just like a lot of other former NSDAP members. They had a lot of intellectual accmoplishments in spite of all the usual list of horrors.


            If you’re stuck in Ayn Rand’s simplistic version of Aristotle, I’ll give you another name to advance your thinking. Martin Heidegger. Another one of the hated Germans who we yet find his name firmly entrenched in serious and responsible philosophical works of the past 70 years.

            1. The point is Kurtz, how is the Federal Reserve an example of individualism? You don’t get to despise the Federal Reserve and individualism at the same time.

              1. It is the issuer of the currency, the regulator of the banking system, and thus the provider of the lifeblood of commerce, which is money. Money is the gas in the engine of American capitalism. That’s how. For about a century now.

                Steve, are you one of these guys who wants to go back to the Scottish free banking era or the American version where banks issued private dollars backed by specie deposits? this is about as realistic of a frame of reference as me wanting to go back to Leonidas’ Sparta

                but since i mentioned it, did you know that in Sparta gold and silver coin were forbidden? they used iron ingots for money. Yes, fiat money all the way back to Lycurgus. and it worked.

              2. and I don’t despise the Federal Reserve. I don’t like it but it’s the system that has brought us where we are, to a point at which the US dollar is still obviously as good as gold, or gold price would not be down, even as a behemoth exponential amount of US Dollars has flooded the world economy in the past 3 months.

                If you are betting against the US dollar then you are betting against the house. Like the house of all houses ever. That may be fun but it’s no way to make a profit.

                or are you one of those guys whom Peter Schiff is still faking out with his perpetually inaccurate predictions? I was once, too.

                See, as Americans we are super lucky. We are lucky most of all in 3 really basic ways

                a. the US crushed the Axis in the war, which was part two to the preceeding war, which was in no small part due to the Federal Reserve and its financial operations,

                b. the US outlasted the USSR, which was partly due to Federal Reserve operations,
                c. the Federal Reserve and dollar-as-world-reserve-currency racket lifts our savings every day, to higher values, for whatever reasons., to an unbelievable degree, in ways that were barely imaginable when it was chartered a hundred years ago.

                You, me, the protesters, book, seth, Turley, all of us are super lucky we were born here, we speak English, and then a, b, and c are 90% of the rest of what makes us so successful. The rest of the various explanations of America’s this and that may be meaningful but when you make a “weighting” of various possible explanations in proportion to the weight of the US dollar’s success, well, you have to be a fool to complain too much about the Fed. It may be a racket but its one in which we dip our beaks day after day after day. How could you have a country with massive unemployment, disease problems, social disorder, and the currency, credit rating, and capital markets stay sky high?

                I can’t really explain it. I could talk at it and cite the usual stuff but I am just smart enough to understand the biggest factor is this. The Fed and the fact that people desire their paper money more than gold. God, I tell you guys, we are all so lucky, it is the unfairest thing ever, and the protesters who do not think of such a thing even for a moment are ignorant and do not understand how they have benefited from it so much right along with us. if this was a normal country in history without the stellar success of the USD the gig would have been up decades ago.

                Almost every discussion that doesn’t reckon in some material way economic factors, is from the start, a waste of breath.

                1. If the Fed is the lifeblood of commerce, how did we get along just fine without it before Woodrow put it in action.

                  As for this: “The fundamental distinction which underlies all politics is the citizen and non-citizen.”

                  No, it is the citizen and the government.

                  Incidentally, the last time I heard Greenspan on this one was here:

                  “If Alan Greenspan Wants To ‘End The Fed’, Times Must Be Changing”


        3. Mt. Kurtz,

          You frequently post excellent and interesting things,
          And they others total nonsense.

          I do not care what you think about libertarianism.

          If you use force against me outside of that which can be justified – morally and ethically.

          Then I am entitled to use force to defend myself – or the 2nd amendment if you wish.

          You can posit all the bunk you wish. Even Mao grasp that power comes from the barrel of a gun.

          You can construct government on non-libertarain terms – using whatever bable you wish.
          You can get most people to tolerate infringements beyond what most libertarians will allow. But the more power you take from the individual and transfer to the collective – government the greater the resistance you create. And this problem gets worse as society gets more diverse, larger or more complex.

          Unfortunately for libertarains – even our founders tolerated a fairly large amount of arbitrary and caprecious abuse of power before taking up arms.
          Unfortunately for your nonsense. Ultimately big government fails.

          And if you want to pretend there is such a thing as limited government that is not inherently libertarain – have fun.

    3. And it is established that the Russian trolls targeted where Manafort told them to and that included Wisconsin and Michigan where the margin was in the tens of thousands. It is very possible that we have the current loser because of this effort..

      JT is a Trump stooge and that has been obvious for months now. The bad taste he got at the impeachment hearings left a mark and may have pushed him over the edge. His public persona is obviously very important to him and he gets defensive easy – see Rep Swalwell cross which was not abusive, and his reaction, as if stabbed in the back.

      1. possible but not very possible. very very unlikely actually.

        but you keep thinking that if you like. that can help you justify 3 years of your efforts at verbally discrediting and delegitimizing American elections, which is precisely what Russian influence operations have intended to do since going way back to KGB

        because you are a sore loser

        now show me what the Democratic party is doing to help root out CCP bot army on social media or limiting the aggressive agenda of Chairman Xi in Asia? Not much, not much. Why, because it serves your interests and you are completely cynical hypocrites. that’s why. in a nutshell.

        1. Yeah Kurtz, I’m the sore loser which is why I am always advocating for revolution and violence against fellow American citizens.

          Obama negotiated a deal with Xi on Chinese hacking and cybersecurity which the Trump administration stuck with until 2018 and sensing a sucker China encroached on. When we get back in power I have little doubt that smart negotiators – not vanity poseurs – will address these and other ignored problems.

            1. Well no, John he won’t, butObama was not the sucker for flattery Trump is and I’m sure had no illusions. That agreement held up into 2018.

              1. Yes, Trump has been so suckered by Xi, that the pacific fleet is knocking on its door, aegis cruisers keep circling the South China Sea, the US and Japan are creating a new mega airbase – a giant unsinkable carrier right in China’s back yard, Trump has all of asia from Vietnam to the philipines and Taiwan glaring at Xi.

                Trump is such a softy for flattery.

                1. Gee, that may be true John – the air base is a relocation of an existing base – but our problems with China are economic first, not military and Trump killed the TPP which Obama negotiated as a regional economic powerhouse in opposition to Chinese domination. It is currently functioning well with all other members on board and without us.

                  1. “Gee, that may be true John – the air base is a relocation of an existing base”
                    IT moves substantial US assets from 900km from China and the SC Sea to 300km or less. it is a massive change in the balance of power.

                    “but our problems with China are economic first”
                    I do not support Trump on Trade – but TPP was a mess.
                    And Obama was disasterously bad on China.

                    “not military”
                    That is why China has been sabre rattling all over the place ?

                    I do not think we will have a military conflict with China BECAUSE we have dramatically improved our preparedness regarding China and our military relations with just about every country surrounding China.

                    China is actively in military conflict with India right now.

                    “and Trump killed the TPP which Obama negotiated”
                    “as a regional economic powerhouse in opposition to Chinese domination”
                    uh. TPP was a treaty China wanted.

                    “It is currently functioning well with all other members on board and without us.”

                    That would be all the countries that are in pissing contests with China now ?
                    Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Vietnam ?

                    Do you read the news ?
                    Everyone is distancing themselves from China.
                    Countries are cancelling deals looking to confiscate assets,

                    This is your idea of working well ?

                    We have crap for economic data on china, but it is beleived they are experiencing an actual recession this year, the first time since Mai died.

                    1. John, I read the news but this posts indicates you don’t. The TPP purposefully excluded CHina and was/is a mechanism for challenging it’s regional dominance.


                      China is trying to get in, or construct an alternative.

                      “Many analysts agreed that Trump’s decision to withdraw the US from the TPP was a strategic gift to Beijing.”


                    2. You consider the MSM a reliable source ?

                      If as you claim TPP was to challenge China’s dominance – that is pretty strange.
                      As the Obama administration did pretty much everything possible to avoid challenging China and Trump has done pretty much everything possible to challenge China.

                      At this moment China is more straightjeacketted than ever before.

                      The US rejected TPP – so that can not be the mechanism.
                      Instead there is greater military coop-eration between the US and everyone surrounding China.

                      The US has a deal with the Phillipines and Subic bay will be reopened as a US military base. That will be a substantial benefit to the US releiving other US forward naval, bases, and reducing treks accross the pacific by US naval forces.

                      You say that TPP was so important – and yet US ties to the rest of Asia are improving with Trump. Our economic links to all the rest of asia are growing.

                      Regardless, I am not a big fan of government “free trade deals” – whether they are foist on us by Trump or Obama. I am a proponent of actual free trade and we know from economics that the country with the lowest trade barriers gets the most benefit from trade. Trade deals always devolving into the interests of big business – which is never a free market.

                    3. “Many analysts agreed that Trump’s decision to withdraw the US from the TPP was a strategic gift to Beijing.”

                      Are words and reality the same thing to you ?

                      At this very moment China is likely in the midst of the first actual receission they have had since Mao died. While C19 is near certain the straw that broke the camels back, the were going to have the worst year in 40 years regardless – if not a recession.

                      This is your idea of a “gift to beijing” ?

                      If so “Please, Sir, can I have more ?”

              2. “That agreement held up into 2018.”

                So ?

                The Iran deal held up so long as we dumped billions on them, screwed historical allies, and ignored violations all over.

                But it is Trump that is a sucker for flattery ?

                I am not actually a Trump fan. I think he is at best a C+ president
                But we have had 16 years of D- presidents so he looks really good.

                Please do not try to sell me Obama anything.
                He was the most handsome president we have had in my lifetime.
                That is it. I can not think of anything else good about him.
                And the more I learn the worse it gets.

                Even if the crap he pulled int he transition is not an actual crime, no US president EVER has deliberately sabotaged his successor.

                Only a left wing nut could pretend that was moral.

                1. John, it’s Friday evening and as compelling as the idea of spending hours arguing is, I’ll save it for much later or tomorrow. Quickly however, a survey of historians rated Obama our 12th best president in 2015. Also quickly., it was Iranian money (some private), paid back once and at favorable interest rates to the US – we had it since 1979. Trump ended the hold on Iran’s nuclear weapons program which was inspected by on site IAEA inspectors and got nothing for it.

                  The art of the deal!

                  1. “Quickly however, a survey of historians rated Obama our 12th best president in 2015.”\

                    These would be the same people who think the 1619 project deserves a pulitzer prize.

                    Honestly given that half of the ivory tower is actual marxists today why was is not 1st ?

                    “it was Iranian money (some private), paid back once and at favorable interest rates to the US – we had it since 1979.”
                    Yes, since the Iranians too 400 americans hostage.
                    There were judgments against that money.

                    “Trump ended the hold on Iran’s nuclear weapons program which was inspected by on site IAEA inspectors and got nothing for it.”

                    And Iran is back under sanctions that are crippling its regime.

                    “The art of the deal!”

                    1. John, I’m starting to lose interest in talking with another right winger who starts by discounting expert opinion. Yeah, they can be wrong, but you sort of have to argue from your own expertise or establish doubt that is not political.

                      The same poll of historians had Reagan higher than Obama, so if they are Marxists, they are very objective Marxists.


                      You don’t answer my Iranian points with anything other than irrelevancies.

                      The larger goal was and is not to punish Iran, it was to halt their nuclear weapons program which the Obama/Europe/Russian/Chinese deal accomplished. Trump gave it away for nothing and in fact Iran is once again developing nuclear weapons.

                      The details of 1979 are irrelevant to the economic backwash, which we have never claimed was our money to keep. In fact, I don’t believe we actually held it – it was in banks. They got back that which was theirs and we never challenged that it was, As I mentioned, some of it was private Iranian money.

                    2. Anon – most historians don’t like to get into anything closer than 20 years ago. They want the distance of time to cool emotions.

                    3. Si anyone who thinks the modern progressive left is full of shit – in your world view is a right winger ?

                      Grow up Jesse Helms is dead, and I am not him.

                      Nor am I the slightest interested in being lectured about expert opinion.
                      Experts are there to inform, not to decide. We are still required to use the brains god gave us and our judgement. On any issue there are guarantted to be multiple different “expert oppinions”.

                      those who talk about “discounting expert opinion.” pretty much always mean “discounting my prefered experts”.

                      The quality of experts is determined by their conformance to the facts.
                      If you are unaware of the facts, you can not judge experts.

                    4. “but you sort of have to argue from your own expertise or establish doubt that is not political.”

                      I do ? Anyone does ?

                      When I took logic appeals to authority was a fallacy – has that changed ?

                      I argue facts, logic reason. If the facts are correct, and the logic conforms to the rules of logic the result is correct – regardless of my personal expertise.

                      I can spray you with my own qualifications, and experience, and my performance on various measures of skill or intelligence,
                      and not one bit of that would alter whether my argument was valid or my results correct.

                      Experts are sources of data and analysis, you must make your arguments yourself.

                    5. “You don’t answer my Iranian points with anything other than irrelevancies.”

                      Why is anyone obligated to answer your questions in your way ?

                      Are you obligated to respond to each of my points ? You have done a poor job if you are.

                      You have very odd ideas of how to make an argument.

                    6. “The larger goal was and is not to punish Iran,”

                      YOUR Goal. Maybe Obama’s, maybe even a good one, but you do not get to jump from a premise to a conclusion.

                      The consequences of the Iran deal vastly altered the mideast balance of power in an inarguably bad way that plagued even Obama

                      I think a non-nuclear Iran is a laudable goal. It is not THE goal.
                      Assuming that Obama succeeded, the cost was not worth it.
                      But the evidence is that he did not – though if that is false it would not be the first time that the spooks have lied to us
                      Whether he succeeded in that is up in the air. He failed most everywhere else.

                      “it was to halt their nuclear weapons program which the Obama/Europe/Russian/Chinese deal accomplished.”
                      It did ? And your evidence of that is ? Certainly it is not the position of the “experts” who in 2017 beleived that Irans nuclear program had not skipped a beat.

                      “Trump gave it away for nothing and in fact Iran is once again developing nuclear weapons.”
                      It did ? While I do not trust these so called experts – particularly about assessments of the nuclear capabilities of closed countries, to my knowledge pretty much every source that claims Iran is moving towards WMD’s was saying the same thing in 2016.

                      “The details of 1979 are irrelevant to the economic backwash, which we have never claimed was our money to keep.”
                      “We” – the president, Obama, is irrelevant. US courts awarded various parties with claims against Iran judgements and those judgements were secured against that money.
                      Iran defended those claims and lost.

                      In your world does the president have the power to toss centuries of law ? Or is that limited only to Obama ?

                      You attacked blurring politics with facts – so why are you doing that ?

                      “In fact, I don’t believe we actually held it – it was in banks.”
                      That is correct, who were required by court orders to disburse it to an assortment of people with valid judgements against Iran, and were unable to do so because Obama and prior president were doing exactly as they did and trying to use that money as leverage. But the disposition of the money was already decided by the courts in properly conducted civil cases. While I do not condone the prior presidents that blocked the release of those funds. Atleast they did not go so far as to steal them from the people that they actually belonged to.

                      “They got back that which was theirs”
                      Not according to numerous courts.
                      “we never challenged that it was,”
                      We – Obama, or We our courts and the rule of law ?

          1. ha ha “when we get back in power then we will control the CCP that is helping us now”

            sure book, sure you will.

            if you live to CCP take over this country enough to care what happens here, that will be the end of riots that much is for sure

            I’m for America being governed by Americans, Im even for the right of free speech and public assembly, even by radicals, if there is a peaceful assembly. but in case you missed it, we have had a week of horrible rioting and arson and mayhem, all perpetrated in the name of the victim George Lloyd. This is on the weak, cynical Democratic party leadership that welcomes the destabilization because you think it will lead to an electoral victory. We all know it’s true.

            but, all politics aside, Shanghai is a lot bigger than NYC and a lot more peaceful too. nobody has to worry about rioting in Shanghai, let alone looting or arson.

            be careful making deals with the devil, may not like how it all turns out

            1. Kurtz, you just said you don’t care about Russian involvement in our elections but now:

              “I’m for America being governed by Americans…” No your not.

      2. It is established ?

        Then you could cite where that was established.

        Given that there is absolutely no evidence that Manaforte had any contact with anyone on this. HE was not even part of the Trump campaign very long, and was gone before the Trolls posted anything.

        Facts matter, you do not get to make them up.
        No one has successfully connected anyone in the Trump campaign to Putin, or Russian Troll farms.

        They have connected HFA to the GRU. In fact the FBI had done that BEFORE investigating Trump.

        Your trying to sell Useful Idiot SwallWell ?

        1. John:

          “Donald Trump’s former campaign chairman Paul Manafort shared polling data on the 2016 election with a Russian man linked to Moscow’s intelligence agencies, according to special counsel Robert Mueller….

          Attorneys for Manafort disclosed the allegations in a court filing in Washington on Tuesday. They appeared in sections of the filing that were meant to be redacted, but where text underneath blacked-out lines could be copied and viewed….”

          Meanwhile Swalwell very politely and tightly nailed JT to the wall. Want to watch?

          1. I might add that shortly after his House appearance he wrote a column here savaging Swalwell for somehow treating him unfairly and misrepresenting his position. That is hard to do when you are being quoted accurately and the facts surrounding a previous event noted correctly. It seems JT is not used to give and take, being more used to pontification, and does not react appropriately when challenged.

              1. Nailing JT to the wall, which was my post above. Not being a constituent, I don’t otherwise follow him.

                What has Trump been accurate about in the last 5 months?

                1. “What has Trump been accurate about in the last 5 months?”

                  Did not vote for Trump. Regardless, it takes months to years to establish the accuracy of some Trump remarks.

                  His campaign was spied on, wiretapped.
                  XFH and the SC were a witch hunt.
                  Worse we now know they KNEW it at the time.

                  1. John, the IG report that is only 5 months old said there was no spying or partisan motivation in the Crossfire Hurricane investigation. If there had been, surely they would have just leaked the fact they were investigating the Trump campaign at the same time Comey announced the reopening of Hillary’s campaign, and poof, not President Trump.

                    As to verifying accuracy. here’s our President discussing the virus over that period (brief intro from a murder suspect, then…)


                    1. “John, the IG report that is only 5 months old said there was no spying or partisan motivation in the Crossfire Hurricane investigation. ”
                      So english is not your first language.

                      That is not what Horowitz wrote, and when he was questioned by the senate he made absolutely clear, that there was a giant gulf between what he could prove and what he knew happened.

                      “If there had been, surely they would have just leaked the fact they were investigating the Trump campaign at the same time Comey announced the reopening of Hillary’s campaign, and poof, not President Trump.”

                      No one expected Trump to win.

                      XFH was kept secret because it was laughably stupid stunk to high heaven and implicated Clinton all over.

                      The only reason that even left wing nuts buy any of this is because otherwise they must
                      accept they lost the election either because Hillary was that incredibly unappealing.
                      or because we really were that sick of Obama,
                      or the democratic party is that morally bankrupt
                      or telling half the country they are racist is just not a winning election strategy.

                    2. As to C19 – you can make that video for pretty much everyone on the planet.

                      Biden has been ranting about saving 36,000 lives if Trump had acted just one week sooner. Well Biden was telling everyone who would listen that Trump was over-reacting at the time.

                      Regardless it is increasingly obvious that C19 was going to exactly the same thing no matter what. There are several major studies out that demonstrate that the small differences in C19 effects on different countries have absolutely no correlation to any policies of any country.

                      Nothing any country did had any effect.

                      So if you want to piss on Trump, he participated in murdering the economy for nothing.

                      It is probably too early for left wing nuts to grasp that, but there is a long time before the election – unless you manage to keep riots up for another 5 months eventually people will sit back and relax and grasp they have been terrified for nothing.

              2. John Say: “What has Swalwell been accurate about for the past 4 years ?”

                He farts well and loudly. Sometimes from both ends.

          2. Turley looked bored, not nailed

            Why are they playing the Ukrainian ambassador’s feckless testimony? You know the US interfered in the Ukrainian domestic political system right? There was a lawful president and the US funded destabilization groups including violent rioters who forced out that elected lawful president. Because he was against NATO encroachment etc. Of course Russia is sore about that! But dont you get that meddling in other country’s elections will cause them to want to meddle here?

            there’s even a little bit of that in play with Xi mobilizing the wumao army on the internet against Trump and calling in his chits with Silicon valley buddies to go against Trump! It’s so plain to see how the CCP is firmly on the side of Democratic party in this one. CCP has said that Washington’s cutout NGO groups were agitating the HK protesters to not only protest but commit riot and arson, and, I gotta say, I dislike the CCP, but they’re probably telling the truth about that one!

            How totally cynical and ignorant for you to bring that up.

            The very things you bring to the table to prove your point actually illustrate how weak it is.

            In my humble view of the world, peace requires SOVEREIGNTY’

            that means not meddling in the domestic affairs of other nations

            that means Washington if it wants fair elections without foreign meddling– should stop meddling in other nation’s elections and affairs too

            but we know that’s been the playbook all along. so we reap karma over this

            1. Kurtz, given your support of Trump, it is already a given that you do not read people very well. However, to most , JT’s expression is pained which his sqawking soon after confirmed.

              By the way, it is not necessary that the person being nailed to the wall registers the situation accurately for it to be true.

              1. You are free to assume about me whatever suits your personal biases Book.

                in my view, and it’s just a matter of opinion, and perhaps you are so much smarter than me, maybe you are; but that Small character is annoying and pompous. Why is it that a pompous arrogance is mistaken by you guys so often for confidence?

                Turley was super in his testimony, and the reaction against him in DC was rude, and the reaction from the haters who invaded this website for a few weeks was super offensive. As a daily visitor, you should have been embarassed by all the awful remarks that the host of interlopers dumped on Turley’s doorstep like so many paper bags filled with flaming feces. The stink rubbed off on you, even though I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt since we get to chat so often. Why would you bring this false narrative up again today?

                I suspect in your deepest self, you find something charming about our discussions, which is why you so eagerly return to the fray., Turley has certainly provided you with a good forum for your views. Why insult him?

                He’s just a person who you may disagree with time to time. Where’s the gratitude for giving us a free space to air our views?

                1. Kurtz, I don’t recall it as you do and was most taken by JT’s claiming to have been rudely dealt with by Swalwell, yet he did not link the video. I searched for it and “What the hell?” Tough, yes, but not rude. Grow some hide if you’re entering a forum with give and take..

                  But since then I think he’s gone full on Trump and I can’t respect that since he still pretends to be an objective non-partisan commentator while performing contortions to feed the right.

                  I came here not expecting to dislike JT or even disagree, but as I think he’s grown worse I certainly am there most of the time. Occasionally he’ll post something I agree with and I will say so. I doubt I owe him anything other than my honest opinion, which is what I post, because hits are obviously what he wants and I both post them and draw them from opposing posters.

                  1. I would agree he seems more sympathetic to Trump’s actions now. But whether that is because he likes Trump– i doubt that– or Turley has a contrarian bent to him, I don’t know. I would bet Turley is just a sort of contrarian fellow. the more you guys yell at him the more he will tack the other way. Not out of pique but just the sort of intellectual habit of “taking the other side arguendo” which is part of the Socratic dialectic of the usual law school professor’s method.

                    The closest thing i had to mentor in law school was my own constitutional law prof, who was a feminist and an ACLUer, if you can believe that. But a fine person, not annoying or inauthentic in any way. She had a contrarian side too. This is part of the culture of law school, at least decades ago it was. Turley reminds me of law school, which I really liked. Before I got all cynical and stuff.

                    1. Maybe, and I don;t really know him enough to judge that. I doubt he reads much of the comments. They are not usually that sharp, if here and there. He still gets columns regularly in The Hill and USA Today it seems, and I don’t know what is TV appearances are.

                    2. I never talked to Turley but I assume he almost never reads our comments. I would guess Darren may send him an overview in an email once in a while. If he gets as many emails as I do he probably doesnt read that either.

                      I like this space because I know some people read it who have brains, and they may chirp up and say something interesting. And, it will post my comments fast and not erase them. Also, I can post under a fake name with ease, and not worry about some creep like Jack Dorsey harvesting my IPs and selling it to advertisers or the thought police.

          3. Actually he shared polling data with an FBI asset.

            Regardless he shared the data with someone who as far as he knew was neither an FBI or Russian asset and who was an employee.

            Since when is sharing business data with an employee a crime ?

            Since when is sharing polling data with ANYONE a crime ?

            Since when is it collusion ?

            I have absolutely no interest in anything Swalwell says. Life is way to short to spend a moment on the garbage from those caught lying repeatedly.

            If Swalwell told the truth about anything – it would have to be an accident.

    4. Why the heck would they be Russian? Why not Chinese trolls? They are most certainly an enemy. One we fed an allowed to grow.

      Ask Clinton and Gingrich.

  12. All of them. Left, la bandera rosa, national socilist, international socialist, regressive liberals, not a zloty worth of difference and not a true citizen of the USA in the bunch.

    Excluded are ones like Grassley, Gabbard and a couple of former SEALs The face of the new second party the Constitutional Democrats or whatever name they choose and the walk aways who are also Citizens and the political raiders who helped the Marxist Leninists choose that minus one G-wd Awful rejects, incompetents and idiots.

    Minus two should be explained. it would have one higher if Ocasio had been a year older and then all the letters in G-WD AWFUL.

    Minus Tulsi Gabbard who helped expose the rot in the Stupid Party by attempting to run she was also the only one competent enough

    That’s it for the party of slavery, war mongers, fascist income taxes and breakers of their Oath of Office by either taking it and breaking it or refusing to take it while the Chief Comrade Pelosillyni ignored the crime, thus committing four on her own..

    But you might as well say all of them since those who were true citizens have already departed except the political raiders and the others mentioned or referred to Gabbard, Grassley and two former SEALs.


  13. Let’s see if I have this straight…

    This “violent movement” that has rioted ~ looted and burned businesses down

    Leaving the businesses boarded up in shambles

    Those very same businesses/corporations are now giving big bucks 💰💰💰 to those who just looted them

    To allow and fund the continuation of [their] the corporations demise

    …only in America my friend only in America!

    🇺🇸 God Bless the USA 🇺🇸

  14. Professor Turley…… I’m shocked..You alluded to the ridiculously so-called “Charlottesville moment” of Pres Trump’s. Surely you do not believe he was asserting that there were very fine people who were White Supremacists? President Trump was referring to citizens who did not want historic statues removed. People like me.
    With a Jewish daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren, why would he embrace white supremacy? It’s laughable.

    1. Cindy, the Charlottesville was advertised and attended by neo-Nazis. There were no grandmothers and PTA members in attendance.

      1. Bythebook…………..Trump’s speech was about the issue of removing historic statues…..and that there were fine people on both sides of the issue. That is true. Many fine citizens do not believe in tearing down historic statues. There is a group of black citizens in Dallas who do not want Civil War Staues removed. But…. are you smart enough to understand Trump’s simple declarative sentence? Sadly, no.

        Put your little ol’ chin in my hand and look up at me when I say “There will always be sketchy individuals on either side of an issue”.

        Was Trump talking about them? Was he affirming them? No. Now, run on back outside and play.

        1. Well, no Cindy:

          “…The next day, Trump responded, saying “If you look at what I said, you will see that that question was answered perfectly. And I was talking about people that went because they felt very strongly about the monument to Robert E. Lee, a great general…”

          You can read his entire comments in context on this page and there is nothing in there supporting your fantasy. It is entirely about the Charlottesville event, not the “issue”.

          1. bythebook……………Thank you for the link….Trump’s response is great!
            You do kmow that the police said that the liberal demonstrators did NOT have a city permit that day. The other side DID.
            So the libs were marching illegally, of course. Most things they do are illegal. Magically, laws don’t apply to them.

            Btw…….The first amendment was written to protect hate speech as well as non-hate speech…….”Discuss!” 😊

              1. By-the-bull…… Trump meant the fine people, like my family, who think it’s Taliban-ish to remove inanimate objects that wish you no harm.

                To borrow from Paul C,…….show me where on a (Robt E Lee) doll, that statue hurt you?

                1. That’s not what he said Cindy and I provided you the link with full context. He said repeatedly that he was talking about those in Charlottesville at the rally. I assure you there were no little old ladies there. Woman up and admit when you’re wrong, or just take the quiet exit I offered you. You’re wrong.

      2. Actually no it was not.

        It was advertises, organized and attended by a variety of right and alt-right groups.
        The KKK had a separate protest weeks before and there were no neo-nazi’s.
        There were many groups whose values neither of us might support – but that was true of many of the counter protest groups. No group involved advocated violence.
        But for James fields getting lost, and running his care into a crowd – something we are seeing accross the country right now – all the violence was initiated by the counter protestors.

        I doubt there is a single group part of the event that I would call “very fine people”,
        but there were none as violent as Antifa

      3. So what if racists took out the permit to demonstate in Charlottesville. They have a right of free speech too.

        And the heckler’s veto was laid in, they never got to make their protest. They were attacked by an ANTIFA mob, while the cops stood back and watched

        Well, there’s some kind of irony in the same ANTIFA mobs attacking the police now, isnt there. And the BLM crowd doesnt “ask for a permit to demonstrate.”

        racists are going to be taking all kinds of obvious lessons from this mess. Probably all the wrong ones if you like law and order. obviously law and order has taken a big hit this week.

        1. @mr kurtz

          “Law and order” only applies to decent people trying to defend their homes and businesses. Everyone knows that white male gun owners are the biggest domestic terrorist threat.

          Now the John Brown Gun Club, that’s different!


      4. @btb

        There were few “neo-nazis” in Charlottesville. Read the Hutton and Williams report which can easily be found online. Of course, you won’t, you will just point, sputter and name call.

        But, if opposing the removal of Confederate monuments makes one a “nazi”, I guess there were many there.

        And don’t worry, it isn’t going to stop with Confederates.


        1. I searched the report for Nazi’s and I found thrid party claims of “nazi salutes” and and participants saying they were accused of being nazi’s.
          But no actual nazi’s or neo nazi’s.

          1. The Left needs a bigger supply of Nazis because they can’t find any KKK who aren’t Democrats.

            1. When I was young there used to be KKK bon fires and cross burnings in my northern community.
              I beleive they sometimes got almost 1000 to attend.

              We have Nazi’s march through the town every couple of years – maybe 100 of them.

              Today could you add all the nazi’s neo-nazi’s and KKK in the whole country and match the number of antifa at the average junior college ?

              1. When I was young there used to be KKK bon fires and cross burnings in my northern community. I beleive they sometimes got almost 1000 to attend.

                Didn’t realize you were 90 years old.

                1. KKK active in Connecticut in the ’80’s. And outside the Ohio town I lived in during the late ’60’s & early ’70’s. ;Both definitely fond of bonfires.

              2. OK, but:

                “The FBI director was also asked to weigh in on the national debate on race and his agency’s role in investigating and prosecuting crimes motivated by far-right and far-left ideologies.

                Wray confirmed that “a majority” of the domestic terrorism cases the FBI has investigated are motivated by some version of white supremacy. …”


                1. So the FBI chasing snipes is news ?

                  There must be some white supremecist group in the US somewhere.
                  One ?

          2. John, there were no 90 year old members of the original German worker’s party there, but, there were young people there who are inspired by national socialism as a sort of political ideology. Yes there were. As Antonio said.

            But there were also flag wavers, patriots, nativists, constitutionalists, confederate heritage people, and some good old boys and yahoos and at least one nut who lost his cool and committed homicide when his car was blocked.

            none of those people were allowed on that day, to exercise their rights of free speech and assembly. that’s the important thing to note. they were shouted down and physically attacked by ANTIFA and the police stood by and watched.

            So when that straggler, a schizophrenic young man, got cut off and his car blocked, after a long day of being attacked for daring to try and exercise free speech, and he freaked out and killed heather heyer, well,. we can see that maybe the police should have reigned in the ANTIFA and kept order and allowed the demonstration to proceed per the permit.

            But we can see how the police are failing again now, letting ANTIFA ruin other protests now in a different way, by pretending to “support” them, when the real agenda of ANTIFA is just anarchy.

            Which makes me wonder sometimes, and I will admit that a few of the protesters have wondered this too, does it ever seem like ANTIFA and the police sometimes operate in a strange sort of concert? Action-reaction dialectic? Im just thinking out loud here.

            The dialectic can result in one thing only, by the way: the end of free speech.

            ANTIFA are perhaps, quite simply, psychopaths who have been made into “useful idiots” by powerful minds and forces far more clever than their own

            And the protesters too, quite possibly.

          3. @john say

            Glad you saw the Hutton and Williams report. There were thousands of people there, may have been a few but the main purpose was to protest the removal of Confederate statues. Was not there, but followed the events from some who were. They were basically led into a trap and thrown to the wolves by the authorities. The MSM will not refer to the H&W report because it does not fit the template.

            Again, if opposing the removal of Confederate statues makes one a “nazi”, there were many there. Hard to keep up with these things because the left is always moving the goalposts.


        2. Antonio– They should topple the MLK statue in DC because he was a plagiarist and because of the report that he stood by and laughed while another pastor raped a parishoner in a hotel room. Just accusations are enough, right? MLK must come down.

          1. @young

            OMG – I am clutching my pearls!! I can’t believe you said something so awful and racist. Martin Luther King, Jr. was the greatest man who ever lived and breathed, at least in the 20th century.


              1. Virginia law made manumission a complicated procedure, requiring bonds be posted.

                NB, 1/2 of Lee’s slaves were under 10 or over 60.

              2. @btb

                Slavery, though unfortunate existed in most civilized societies throughout history. Western society is neither particularly evil for it having existed and eventually abolished it. I truly wish Blacks had never been brought to the US or Western hemisphere as slaves. Would have avoided the seeds of disunion which may well eventually destroy us.

                And BTW – people such as Ulysses Grant and Dwight Eisenhower admired and thought Lee was a great man. Eisenhower kept a picture of Lee in the Oval Office. Was Dwight Eisenhower a “nazi”, yes or no? You won’t answer of course, just sputter, make an excuse or name call.

                And frankly my dear, I don’t give a d@@n.


        3. I’m sorry antonio, but I didn’t buy the program and don’t know all the players in the neo-nazi, alt right crowd. i I have watched video of the march, casual moments on the side, etc and none of them seemed to be “very fine people”.

          1. I would tend to agree – pretty much no one in Charlottesville that day was “veryfinepeople” on either side.

          2. @btb

            I dare you to read the Hutton and Williams report. Of course, you won’t. I oppose the removal of confederate statues (or those of George Washington, the Texas Ranger statute). Does any of this opposition make me a “nazi”?


  15. Thanks JT for this companion piece to your columns denouncing Trump for his rhetoric which influenced several mass shooters iand bomb makers n the last couple of years, and much more directly.


    You did write those columns, right?

    1. Be specific. I am not aware of an actual bomb maker. There was a guy hopped up on steriods who made fake bombs to scare people. that is a crime. It is not bomb making.

      Do you mean the el paso eco terrorist mass shooter ?

      Pretty much the entirety of these mass shooters, bombers etc are deeply disturbed people, most are schizophrenics. Near universally they construct some nonsensical ideology and write a manafesto pulling bits and peices from all over.

      If you wish to claim they are actually politically motivated – have fun most of them have strong leftist elements in their manefesto’s or history.
      We have Christian – the bus Slasher who was a Bernie Bro, or what about the transgendered mass shooter ? Or the guy who shot up the congressional republican softball team, or ….

      If we can draw a line from mass shooters to the political parties or politicians – atleast half the lines lead left.

      Or we could just agree these guys are nuts.

      1. Well John, you may note there is no direct line between rioters and JT’s supposed instigators, so that is not the proper comparative measure. The bomb maker was the guy in Florida who mailed them to numerous Trump enemies, the shooter in El Paso and Pittsburgh were both Trump related though the Pittsburgh guy thought Trump too liberal.

        1. By the way John, you are aware that the FBI rates right wing terrorists as the most deadly in America over the last several years, while left wing terrorists can’t even make the play-offs.

          1. If you went all the way back to the 80 and 90s which would be over two decades, then it might be fair to say that right wing terrorists were a threat. The Order and MacVeigh.

            But in the past decade, pffft. Not much. Mostly just a pack of crazies and anarchist types, not political.

            I guess you could say Anders Breivik and the Christchurch shooter were right-wingers, and they did have some definitive political ideas, but they were outside America.

          2. And how accurate has that turned out ?
            I was not a big fan of the FBI before they perpetrated Watergate on steroids.

            The last act of arguably right wing terrorism I can recall is OKC.

          3. We just watched left wing terrorists beat all the records for decades. They’re still at it, and you babble about the FBI and being aware, with your brain that means being a liar to oneself and others.

            Left wingers already won it for the century, and most of last century, if not all, in the past week. Go argue with Bill Ayers and Obama if they did better or worse left wing damage in the days of rage.

        2. “Well John, you may note there is no direct line between rioters and JT’s supposed instigators, so that is not the proper comparative measure.”
          None of this is clear enough to address.

          “The bomb maker was the guy in Florida who mailed them to numerous Trump enemies,”
          That would be faux bomb maker who was wigged out on steroids.

          “the shooter in El Paso and Pittsburgh were both Trump related though the Pittsburgh guy thought Trump too liberal.”
          They are as close to Trump as they are to Greta Thunberg.

          nuts is nuts, trying to make political sense out of what are near certain paranoid schizophrenics is a fools errand.
          you do not seem to be a fool

  16. What is China, a potted plant???? We had people travel as far as 600 miles to trash Scottsdale Fashion Mall. It a bunch of white kids.

  17. Heroes and villains haven’t been changing parts. It’s been the same set of villains since about 1965.

  18. Any ideology based on idealized falsehoods is bound to succumb to the conflicts inherent within its own delusions.

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