Yes, The St. Louis Couple Could Be Criminally Charged But It Would Be No Slam Dunk Prosecution

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Two lawyers in St. Louis are in the middle of a firestorm after they were shown outside of their house with guns in a confrontation with protesters en route to the nearby house of Mayor Lyda Krewson. Mark and Patricia McCloskey are shown aiming their weapons at the protestors, including Mark McCloskey’s assault-style rifle.  St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner has publicly declared that she is looking for criminal charges to bring against the two lawyers.  That has led to many in the criminal defense field (including many who reached out to me) to speculate on what charges she might bring under these facts.  While many have suggested that this would be a slam dunk prosecution or that the fact easily satisfy criminal definitions, it may be easier to get a charge than a sustainable conviction.

The McCloskeys have insisted that they were responding to what they saw as a clear threat. They insist that most of the protesters were peaceful, that they had no problem with those protesters, and that they support Black Lives Matter.  Critics insist that they were the cause of the escalation and the gun display was uncalled for and threatening.

The attorneys called the St. Louis Police Department shortly before 7:30 p.m. on Sunday and the police report confirmed that “a large group of subjects forcefully break an iron gate marked with ‘No Trespassing’ and ‘Private Street’ signs.”  (For the record, I have seen pictures of the gate and it is not exactly formidable and does appear “smashed.” However, it is clearly marked as private property and was forced open).

Gardner issued a statement late Monday morning that she was “alarmed at the events that occurred over the weekend, where peaceful protesters were met by guns and a violent assault.” She added “Make no mistake: we will not tolerate the use of force against those exercising their First Amendment rights, and will use the full power of Missouri law to hold people accountable.”


Some have criticized the public declaration of Gardner in light of these claims. Gardner has been under fire for the release of alleged looters and rioters without charges.

The question for this blog is what can Gardner use in such a case as a criminal charge and some of our Missouri lawyers might have some insights to share.

First, here is part of the videotape that would feature prominently in any trial:

Patricia McCloskey is shown most clearly in pointing a gun at protesters.  Mark McCloskey actually points a rifle as much at his wife, but also there are points where he turns his body with the barrel pointing at protesters. Both are bare-footed and can argue that they ran from their home to confront what they viewed as an immediate threat. Patricia McCloskey is shown going to the side of the house and she is likely to claim that she was trying to fend off intruders as part of any defense.  However, the prosecutors can argue that the videotapes do not show aggressive conduct or movement toward the house.

The key may be any home security footage or other videotape and witness-based evidence to support the claim of the initial threats or threatening conduct.

Here is another video however where Patricia McCloskey is clearing pointing the gun at the protesters:


Ironically, therefore, the clearer case may be against Patricia with the small handgun than her husband with the assault-style weapon.

Here is an interview with the husband.

The most obvious criminal charge could be Section 571.030(4), which allows for a Class E felony charge when a person “[e]xhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner.” Such a conviction can bring up to four years in prison, one year in jail, and/or a $10,000 fine.

It is not unlawful to be outside of one’s home on your property with a lawful weapon, which may be the ultimately defense for Mark McCloskey  if he is not shown pointing the weapon intentionally at any individual.  Indeed, we have seen the same type of weapon displayed in public in rallies (like those against the lock-down orders) and protests (like some in the “autonomous” zone in Seattle).  Obviously, existing footage shows Patricia McCloskey pointing the weapon.

However, a complicating factor is that Missouri is a state with a Castle Doctrine law and these guns were lawfully possessed.  The law states, in subsection 3,  that deadly force cannot be used unless “[s]uch force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter private property that is owned or leased by an individual.” However, no lethal force was used here. It was threatened.

That raises two questions.  Is the law triggered by entry on the property as opposed to entry without the home?  Also, does the law implicitly support the show of force to deter entry.

Some have cited the 2016 case of State v. Whipple, which interpreted subsection 3 is not giving  “the occupier, owner, or lessee authority to stand his ground and use deadly force without having a reasonable belief that such force is necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force.”

However, the McCloskey’s are alleging that they were threatened directly, the protesters were already trespassing, and that the breaking of the gate constitutes a reasonable basis for their fear. That seems the ultimate jury question.  Whether you are carrying a gun to deter violence or “in an angry or threatening manner” could grounds for both a factual defense and even a constitutional defense based on the vagueness of the standard when applied to homeowners standing on their own property.

There is also the possibility of an assault charge under Section 565.056 (3-4), which defines assault in the fourth degree as any conduct which “purposely places another person in apprehension of immediate physical injury” or “recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of death or serious physical injury to another person.” This again is subject to the same arguments raised with regard to the potential brandishing charges.

As a criminal defense attorney, I often worry about a client who becomes such a focus of national media attention.  Prosecutors are elected officials who tend to respond to outcry of the public. The image of two affluent individuals standing in front of their luxury home with these weapons is nightmare for defense counsel.  However, there are some tricky issues here in the use of these laws in the balancing of the rights of self-defense under laws like the Castle Doctrine law and countervailing prohibitions on threats or assault.  Indeed, the pre-trial motions would be fascinating to watch as the defense seeks dismissal on the basis for statutory or constitutional claims.  The prosecution needs to get not just a judge to reject such a motion for dismissal, but a jury to rule unanimously in favor of the charges.  Any conviction would allow for ample grounds to appeal.

Missouri Castle Doctrine Law:

 *563.031.  Use of force in defense of persons. — 1.  A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person, unless:

  (1)  The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his or her use of force is nevertheless justifiable provided:

  (a)  He or she has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened use of unlawful force; or

  (b)  He or she is a law enforcement officer and as such is an aggressor pursuant to section 563.046; or

  (c)  The aggressor is justified under some other provision of this chapter or other provision of law;

  (2)  Under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the person whom he or she seeks to protect would not be justified in using such protective force;

  (3)  The actor was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony.

  2.  A person shall not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

  (1)  He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself, or herself or her unborn child, or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;

  (2)  Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or

  (3)  Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter private property that is owned or leased by an individual, or is occupied by an individual who has been given specific authority by the property owner to occupy the property, claiming a justification of using protective force under this section.

  3.  A person does not have a duty to retreat:

  (1)  From a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining;

  (2)  From private property that is owned or leased by such individual; or

  (3)  If the person is in any other location such person has the right to be.

  4.  The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of physical restraint as protective force provided that the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the restraint as soon as it is reasonable to do so.

  5.  The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.  If a defendant asserts that his or her use of force is described under subdivision (2) of subsection 2 of this section, the burden shall then be on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not reasonably believe that the use of such force was necessary to defend against what he or she reasonably believed was the use or imminent use of unlawful force.

470 thoughts on “Yes, The St. Louis Couple Could Be Criminally Charged But It Would Be No Slam Dunk Prosecution”

  1. For those interested in the NYTimes frontpage story on Russian involvement in the killing of US troops one should listen to the press briefing. It’s quite complete and answers a lot of the questions raised in discussion.

  2. What codes? The White Folks are gone! Blacks was kangz and they built the United States, sooo what is rebuilding a few older houses. If a house is too damaged, then scrap it for the materials. White Folks do that and build tiny homes, so sure black folks could do the same. There is plenty of cheap labor in the community. Plus, how expensive is paint and nails.

    Plus, the Germans and Japanese rebuilt their communities after being bombed to rubble. I have seen German women out the salvaging bricks from bombed buildings. Why can’t black women? Plus them hood gals are not undernourished like a lot of those European White Folks were. No, them hood gals could use the exercise.

    Why can’t blacks get off their a$$eS and build up their own areas??? They got plenty of energy to march and riot and loot and play midnight basketball.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

    1. Squeeky,

      Instead of dropping atomic bombs on Japan we could have just sent them a boatload of Detroit citizens.

      They would still be in ruins.

      1. @young

        Compare photographs of Detroit circa 1945 with those from today. Do the same with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Wonder how Japan rebuilt without all of the wonderful American style diversity? They didn’t have any strength and it is our GREATEST strength.


          1. I never said it did have anything to do with race, although at some point White Flight probably kicked in. What I am saying is why are these wonderful people who built the United States and was kangz, why aren’t they rebuilding these areas? There is practically free housing, and plenty of construction material around. Plus, they are so clever and industrious, they could lure investment in. If they could behave themselves. But they can’t and that is why national retailers avoid black areas. Too much shoplifting and crime. And too many people up too late at night:


            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter

          2. oh it very much has to do with race, and city mismanagement under black majority rule, lax law enforcement, just the usual stuff they’re asking for now all over again.

   black mayor Coleman Young 74-94. 20 years of mismanagement incompetence and corruption!

            but, de-industrialization is part of it. a big part, globalization, outsourcing, offshoring, even competition from “Right to work” states in the south which took over a lot of the manufacturing in the early 90s. I don’t blame UAW or Teamsters for that one bit. But you can blame the Kroch brothers, they were any Republicans responsible for helping reduce Detroit, probably just them.

            but social trends and factors? black crime, and black leadership incompetence in Detroit city proper. these are the predominant factors followed closely by the Rust belt ones. now maybe there is some sideways interplay, but don’t say blacks werent in charge of their own mess in Detroit because they were

            Kwame Kilpatrick is more recent example 2002- 2008 but it mostly goes on Coleman Young

            1. Not long ago, and maybe even now, the superintendent of Detroit schools was actually illiterate. What kind of educated, skilled people are going to come out of a school system like that?

          3. i think i put too many links in a post. I was saying yes incompetent black political leadership in the person of mayor Coleman Young from 74-94, and black crime which escalated under his awful tenure, were the predominant factors in Detroit’s decline

            However, a close secondary, and perhaps inter-related cause, was globalization, that is to say, outsourcing, offshoring, free trade, financialization, etc. including competetion not just from overseas but from southern “Right to work” states

            I object to putting the blame on the unions. Management is in charge of the business and labor is free to mind its own interests within the law. The “right to work” movement was engineered by the Kroch brothers who are the very same corrupt Republican plutocrats who hate Trump and have either tacitly supported or perhaps actively teamed up with silicon valley and geo soros in promoting the current destabililzation campaign of chaos and disorder.

            1. Mr K,

              Union leadership joined corporate & sold the US & us out, flooding in the illegal workers & outsource, that’s still going in, at the same time Right to Work needed to happen.

              Look back at least 40-50 years most males should …….. I won’t type it.

              It’s not as simple as you write.

              1. I have some criticisms of big labor too. You are right to a degree that it is complicated. And I am oversimplifying. For example the Teamsters for example took a strategic decision not to fight Mexican trucks and truckers. That was a clear betrayal to the membership.

                But overall I am not going to put this on labor. The labor unions were mostly controlled by Democrats all along, by corruption at the top, that is true as well, but i feel it’s very unfair to the workers to blame them. And overall the Right To Work thing did not help because the very forces that organized it like yes the Koch brothers were also into free trade and offshoring and outsourcing to China and they are exactly the same people who hate Donald today. There is a financialist plutocracy in this country and they are the enemy. not the workers.

                But I know more than a handful of union workers who love him.

                I think it’s time to put aside some of the difficulties of the past with organized labor and get them on the American team. They are a strong future component of whatever future we have as law abiding Americans.

                This is very feasible. The collar counties of Chicago are filled with tens if not hundreds of thousands of Americans who are Trump supporters now who grew up in organized labor households that moved out of Chicago. Yes, white flight. These are a solid core of people who can’t sit back and let this country go to pot.

                For these reasons I reject the previous generation of Republican’s negative talk about organized labor. I just reject it. This does not matter anymore. Right now we have to stick together.

          4. Detroit went down with the auto industry and unions. It has nothing to do with race.

            Actually, demographic losses in the four counties around Detroit were modest. 2d and 3d tier commuter belts were hit much harder by the industrial shift than were 1st tier metropolitan centers, of which only Detroit and Philadelphia failed to hold their own (and these had just single-digit population losses). Buffalo, the Quad Cities, Scranton ./ Wilkes-Barre all got hit harder than Detroit. The Detroit municipal population loss stemmed almost entirely from intrametropolitan migration patterns. It’s not difficult to figure out what the driving vector was: a vertiginous decline in security, manifest in street crime and school disorder. Homicide rates in Detroit in 2010 were 10x the national mean and 2.4x what you were seeing in Buffalo.

            1. That may be true Absurd and I like to learn new big words like “vertiginous” i suspect that means like a near vertical line on a graph, but ill look it up

              simply yes black crime was a factor

              I had a mentor of sorts who was a police chief in a Detroit suburb. yes an irish american democrat. No names here, not him nor his suburb. There’s a lot which probably fit this profile, too, so no point guessing.

              He was a whiskey drinker and a smoker and he had a fist as big as a ham. He and his police force were feared by black criminals. they had a clandestine policy of pulling them over for “DWB.” They had no illusions that the city was being ruined by blacks. he kept the suburb safe. there were lawsuits and they got settled but the policy worked. well, he is dead and gone now and some bureaucratic types probably took his place; our families are now out of touch.

              black crime was a huge factor but it was failed black political leadership that turned it loose. coleman young was the loser’s name.

              the economic forces of globalization were a close second factor, and an inter-related one, too

              1. Mr Kurtz – this is a long article, but well worth the reading for a real historical look at slavery in the colonies.

                Daniel Wissert added a new photo to the album: Irish Lives Matter too (1625) — with Patsy Walker and Dan Cohn in Ireland (country).
                June 21 at 10:47 AM
                The Irish slave trade began when 30,000 Irish prisoners were sold as slaves to the New World. The King James I Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.
                Ireland quickly became the biggest source of human livestock for English merchants. The majority of the early slaves to the New World were actually white.
                From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well.
                During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.
                Many people today will avoid calling the Irish slaves what they truly were: Slaves. They’ll come up with terms like “Indentured Servants” to describe what occurred to the Irish. However, in most cases from the 17th and 18th centuries, Irish slaves were nothing more than human cattle.
                As an example, the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period. It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.
                African slaves were very expensive during the late 1600s (50 Sterling). Irish slaves came cheap (no more than 5 Sterling). If a planter whipped or branded or beat an Irish slave to death, it was never a crime. A death was a monetary setback, but far cheaper than killing a more expensive African. The English masters quickly began breeding the Irish women for both their own personal pleasure and for greater profit. Children of slaves were themselves slaves, which increased the size of the master’s free workforce. Even if an Irish woman somehow obtained her freedom, her kids would remain slaves of her master. Thus, Irish moms, even with this new found emancipation, would seldom abandon their kids and would remain in servitude.
                In time, the English thought of a better way to use these women (in many cases, girls as young as 12) to increase their market share: The settlers began to breed Irish women and girls with African men to produce slaves with a distinct complexion. These new “mulatto” slaves brought a higher price than Irish livestock and, likewise, enabled the settlers to save money rather than purchase new African slaves. This practice of interbreeding Irish females with African men went on for several decades and was so widespread that, in 1681, legislation was passed “forbidding the practice of mating Irish slave women to African slave men for the purpose of producing slaves for sale.” In short, it was stopped only because it interfered with the profits of a large slave transport company.
                England continued to ship tens of thousands of Irish slaves for more than a century. Records state that, after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia. There were horrible abuses of both African and Irish captives. One British ship even dumped 1,302 slaves into the Atlantic Ocean so that the crew would have plenty of food to eat.
                There is little question that the Irish experienced the horrors of slavery as much (if not more in the 17th Century) as the Africans did. There is, also, very little question that those brown, tanned faces you witness in your travels to the West Indies are very likely a combination of African and Irish ancestry. In 1839, Britain finally decided on its own to end its participation in Satan’s highway to hell and stopped transporting slaves. While their decision did not stop pirates from doing what they desired, the new law slowly concluded THIS chapter of nightmarish Irish misery.
                But, if anyone, black or white, believes that slavery was only an African experience, then they’ve got it completely wrong.
                Irish slavery is a subject worth remembering, not erasing from our memories.

      2. Here is what I notice. China steals absolutely everything we have of value. Why aren’t they stealing blacks from us??? They could absorb 20 million or so with no problem, and think of the wonderful advantages they would get! They would have their hands on the very people who built our country! They could give them free homes and free cars and then set them to working to build China!

        Squeeky Fromm
        Girl Reporter

        1. McCloskey was ready for Valhalla. One eyed Woden would have welcomed him to the ranks of the Einherjar

        2. “But what is more than curious — indeed, piquant to a degree — is that an ancient god of storm and frenzy, the long quiescent Wotan,should awake, like an extinct volcano, to new activity, in a civilized country that had long been supposed to have outgrown the Middle Ages. We have seen him come to life…”

          Dr Carl G. Jung, “Wotan”

          McCloskey had that Odin-spirit rising in him Sunday. What does it take to get a well heeled lawyer off the couch, away from his dinner table, to defend his home with a lethal weapon? Knowing full well, at that moment, his life as a lawyer and a respectable citizen in these times, was over?

          BLM has stirred up a hornet’s nest. If one tenth of what they say to defame us is true, then they picked the wrong people bully. We will see.

          Just remember. survive the street thugs, but look beyond them to who set them in motion, who apologized for them, who bowed and scraped before them, who joined in their bullying and harassment.

      1. Interesting list of myths. I didn’t scroll down far enough to find the claim they built the pyramids. They didn’t by the way.

    2. Squeaky, there’s always ‘some truth’ to your comments. But they always have a ring to them like in-your-face rightwing media. Like your main thrust is to start a nasty argument.

      1. I am probably am too sharp-tongued sometimes. And I wish I wasn’t as much of a B—-. But this stuff gets me angry. Why are we even talking about two people defending their home from trespassing mobs? If those two were black, I would feel the same way. That is the way I felt about Trayvon Martin. Why should anyone care what color he was? He was banging a dude’s head into the concrete and he got shot. End of story. Same for me if he had been a white punk, and Zimmerman black.

        Perhaps that is precisely the argument we ought to be having. Tell me where in all this crap since Floyd, have you heard anybody say anything to blacks about getting their own lives in order? Criminy, but it has been 55 years since the Civil Rights legislation, and blacks are still wallowing around in self-pity. It is disgusting to me. And pathetic. It is the year 2020 and we have birth control pills. No reason for a near 80% illegitimate birth rate. Ridiculous and inexcusable.

        But, I am supposed to read White Fragility and check my privilege. Like Heck!!!

        Squeeky Fromm
        Girl Reporter

        1. ” If those two were black, I would feel the same way. ”

          That is the difference between you and them. Your calls are made on the basis of actions while theirs is made on the basis of color or wealth.

  3. Details:

    “American officials intercepted electronic data showing large financial transfers from a bank account controlled by Russia’s military intelligence agency to a Taliban-linked account, which was among the evidence that supported their conclusion that Russia covertly offered bounties for killing U.S. and coalition troops in Afghanistan, according to three officials familiar with the intelligence.

    Though the United States has accused Russia of providing general support to the Taliban before, analysts concluded from other intelligence that the transfers were most likely part of a bounty program that detainees described during interrogations. Investigators also identified by name numerous Afghans in a network linked to the suspected Russian operation, the officials said — including, two of them added, a man believed to have served as an intermediary for distributing some of the funds and who is now thought to be in Russia.

    The intercepts bolstered the findings gleaned from the interrogations, helping reduce an earlier disagreement among intelligence analysts and agencies over the reliability of the detainees. The disclosures further undercut White House officials’ claim that the intelligence was too uncertain to brief President Trump. In fact, the information was provided to him in his daily written brief in late February, two officials have said.

    Afghan officials this week described a sequence of events that dovetails with the account of the intelligence. They said that several businessmen who transfer money through the informal “hawala” system were arrested in Afghanistan over the past six months and are suspected of being part of a ring of middlemen who operated between the Russian intelligence agency, known as the G.R.U., and Taliban-linked militants. The businessmen were arrested in what the officials described as sweeping raids in the north of Afghanistan, as well as in Kabul.

    A half-million dollars was seized from the home of one of the men, added a provincial official. The New York Times had previously reported that the recovery of an unusually large amount of cash in a raid was an early piece in the puzzle that investigators put together.

    The three American officials who described and confirmed details about the basis for the intelligence assessment spoke on condition of anonymity amid swelling turmoil over the Trump administration’s failure to authorize any response to Russia’s suspected proxy targeting of American troops and downplaying of the issue after it came to light four days ago….”

  4. Just saw that this armed couple claims to support Black Lives Matter.

    No wonder the country seems to be going nuts. It is.

    But there are worse things than shootouts between BLM supporters and mob attacks on BLM supporting mayors’ homes.

    I have books to read and want nothing to do with any of them. Either All Lives Matter or we may end up with Only White Lives matter which is the de facto situation in Baltimore and Chicago. Couple more kids killed over the weekend but nobody seems particularly interested since they were innocents shot by black men rather than violent criminals shot by cops.

    1. In the interview posted in the blog entry, they do not support BLM, but rather something to the extent of supporting black lives. I don’t recall the specifics.

    2. They’re scared of the reprisals. Of course they are lying. We all know that and black people do too. What they are doing now after the fact is trying to appease all the hateful white people who are shamed by their bravery.

      Message to scared white folks: nobody respects weakness. Only strength

  5. “Mark McCloskey actually points a rifle as much at his wife,…”

    – Professor Turley

    It appears that McCloskey is on the step well below his wife.

    It appears his finger is not on the trigger.

    It appears he has undergone some degree of training.

    You would not want to be in combat if you think McCloskey is “pointing at” or otherwise endangering his wife in a relatively close position.

  6. Courts, judges and prosecutors had better start standing up for our Bill of Rights and Second Amendment in this country, rather than standing up for arsonists, looters, vandals, and terrorists.

      1. Thanks. I seem to remember that but thought it a good time to show the video again. I seem to remember a transcript but I am not sure if it was of this or something else. Is there more than was shown?

          1. OK, here is the important part of it:

            In entertaining and concise language, KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov – who was a foreign correspondent for Soviet media in the West and a KGB officer who defected to Canada- lays out the process of ideological subversion using Marxist ideas that the United States has gone through over the last 50 years. This transcript is from 1984:

            Bezmenov: Ideological subversion is the process, which is legitimate, overt, and open; you can see it with your own eyes. All you have to do, all American mass media has to do, is to unplug their bananas from their ears, open up their eyes, and they can see it. There is no mystery. [It has] nothing to do with espionage. I know that espionage intelligence-gathering looks more romantic. It sells more deodorants through the advertising, probably. That’s why your Hollywood producers are so crazy about James Bond-type of thrillers.

            But in reality, the main emphasis of the KGB is not in the area of intelligence at all. According to my opinion and [the] opinion of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower [are] spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process, which we call either ‘ideological subversion,’ or ‘active measures’— in the language of the KGB—or ‘psychological warfare.’ What it basically means is, to change the perception of reality, of every American, to such an extent that despite of the abundance of information, no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their families, their community and their country.

            It’s a great brainwashing process, which goes very slow[ly] and is divided [into] four basic stages. The first one [is] demoralization; it takes from 15-20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years which [is required] to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy, exposed to the ideology of the enemy. In other words, Marxist-Leninist ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generations of American students, without being challenged, or counter-balanced by the basic values of Americanism (American patriotism).

            The result? The result you can see. Most of the people who graduated in the sixties (drop-outs or half-baked intellectuals) are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, [and the] educational system. You are stuck with them. You cannot get rid of them. They are contaminated; they are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern. You cannot change their mind[s], even if you expose them to authentic information, even if you prove that white is white and black is black, you still cannot change the basic perception and the logic of behavior. In other words, these people… the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible. To [rid] society of these people, you need another twenty or fifteen years to educate a new generation of patriotically-minded and common sense people, who would be acting in favor and in the interests of United States society.

            Griffin: And yet these people who have been ‘programmed,’ and as you say [are] in place and who are favorable to an opening with the Soviet concept… these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country?

            Bezmenov: Most of them, yes. Simply because the psychological shock when they will see in [the] future what the beautiful society of ‘equality’ and ‘social justice’ means in practice, obviously they will revolt. They will be very unhappy, frustrated people, and the Marxist-Leninist regime does not tolerate these people. Obviously they will join the leagues of dissenters (dissidents).

            Unlike in [the] present United States there will be no place for dissent in future Marxist-Leninist America. Here you can get popular like Daniel Ellsberg and filthy-rich like Jane Fonda for being ‘dissident,’ for criticizing your Pentagon. In [the] future these people will be simply [squashing sound] squashed like cockroaches. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful, noble ideas of equality. This they don’t understand and it will be [the] greatest shock for them, of course.

            The demoralization process in [the] United States is basically completed already. For the last 25 years… actually, it’s over-fulfilled because demoralization now reaches such areas where previously not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such a tremendous success. Most of it is done by Americans to Americans, thanks to [a] lack of moral standards.

            As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures; even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him [a] concentration camp, he will refuse to believe it, until he [receives] a kick in his fat-bottom. When a military boot crashes his… then he will understand. But not before that. That’s the [tragedy] of the situation of demoralization.

            So basically America is stuck with demoralization and unless… even if you start right now, here, this minute, you start educating [a] new generation of American[s], it will still take you fifteen to twenty years to turn the tide of ideological perception of reality back to normalcy and patriotism.

            The next stage is destabilization. This time [the] subverter does not care about your ideas and the patterns of your consumption; whether you eat junk food and get fat and flabby doesn’t matter any more. This time—and it takes only from two to five years to destabilize a nation—what matters [are] essentials: economy, foreign relations, [and] defense systems. And you can see it quite clearly that in some areas, in such sensitive areas as defense and [the] economy, the influence of Marxist-Leninist ideas in [the] United States is absolutely fantastic. I could never believe it fourteen years ago when I landed in this part of the world that the process [would have gone] that fast.

            The next stage, of course, is crisis. It may take only up to six weeks to bring a country to the verge of crisis…

            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter



            1. Thank you for posting that Squeeky. The tragic irony of course is the very people he identifies as demoralized won’t recognize it’s them he is talking about. The truth not facts contingent will point to everyone else. We see it on this blog everyday.

            2. Thanks Squeeky. Some of my family know the lessons from close up. We are living in scary times but what is most scary is the stupidity we see around us. You would be amazed at some of the things that were faced.

    1. @mespo

      CHAZ – 2nd Free Territory in the Americas!

      The New York Times called it a “homeland for racial justice.”.

      The Stranger, a local paper, said it was “exceedingly chill.”

      Vox said the neighborhood “flourished” after police left.


    2. Oh, that is too bad! I think I shall pen them a Memorial Irish Poem! And I sha’nt wait a moment more!

      Getting What You Axed For???
      An Irish Poem by Squeeky Fromm

      There was a Republic of CHOP,
      Where there wasn’t not one single cop!
      You’ll never guess what,
      But when people got shot,
      That crap came to a screeching stop!

      Squeeky Fromm
      Girl Reporter

    3. in communities all across america, “WAZ”es are being formed and nobody will say where

      white autonomous zones

      because we can, legal or not, and we must

  7. Had it been ‘my’ house, I would have put on heavy hiking shoes first, then I would have positioned myself in a less visible spot. By being so open, the couple set themselves up as targets of future protests.

    1. Notice how stately that mansion is? It was more than likely built when Saint Loius was a much greater city.

      For more than century Saint Louis ranked as one America’s 10 biggest cities. In 1900 Saint Louis ranked as our 5th biggest city!

      But after WWII Saint Louis’ population plummeted due in part to massive White flight. The decline of railroads, however, had a huge impact on Saint Louis. It had been one of the country’s biggest railroad hubs with tens of thousands of travelers passing through each day. All that traffic had been economic stream that kept the city vital for decades. But since the advent of interstate highways, travelers simply drive ‘through’ Saint Louis and never stop.

        1. It’s difficult to follow.

          Are you saying that Mr. Shill asks a question then answers it himself under his ostensibly surreptitious nom de déguisement, deluding only himself?

        2. No, Olly, ‘John Burgoyne’ accidentally popped up on my phone selection scroll. I wasn’t aware until I posted.

          But I notice, Olly, you’re not so vigilant about names when Crazed Idiot posts with 10 different names per day. Somehow name switching is no big deal when it’s a fine Trumper (however insane he might be).

      1. I like your choice of words, Seth. Stately. Back when things were built to be beautiful and dignified.

        I guess we lost that aim…

        1. Prairie, I’m a builder and while structurally we should be glad things aren’t “built the way they used to be” (the carpenters often made it up on site and engineering was optional), the workmanship was something we rarely see today and the old growth lumber then almost non-existent today. Labor was cheap and skilled craftsman stayed at their job for life. Building now is organized around fast install systems requiring limited skill. Labor is expensive and not as many stick with it. I have 3 carpenters over 50, but that is rare, and for most work,often unnecessary. Design is another story. Surprisingly the most modern structures often demand the most skilled work because there is often no trim, which covers the often rough seams between materials, and often no attics to run wiring, ducts, etc. in. One very modern style house I did required almost everything to be planned out to close tolerances early and as concrete was being poured for this reason.

          1. If John Say shows up again I hope he addresses this – he’s an architect. Maybe VaGen will as an engineer.

            1. Alas, I can only be of assistance if it involves Medical Testing/Cleanroom Equipment, or if you need a battle-hardened antithesis to the common online SJW/Marxist/Same thing.

              I’m proud to say that some of the systems that I have designed are being used in the fight against the Wuhan Virus.


          2. Bythebook,
            You used two crucial words: workmanship and craftsman. Both connote pride and caring and carefulness in the work–a kind of artistry.

            I think it is sad that now that it is so easy with machines to ease the strife of labor that buildings are not the most beautiful they could be, meals are thrown together typically, and clothing is often sloppy. That inverse seems illogical.

            There is IKEA furniture and then there is the beautifully carved, curved and quarter-sawn oak buffet my mother has in her kitchen.

            1. I agree Prairie, but let’s not forget that only a few in either era could afford that workmanship and there is something to be said positively for the fact that labor is partly higher due to things like wages, insurance, and safety considerations. Home ownership has increased since when the McCloskey’s house was built, from the upper 40% to upper 60%, also a good thing. I admire these old houses – going through old neighborhoods is among the 1st things I do when I visit new places – but try to keep those other things in mind.

              Like many things in our life, there is a tendency to view the present as bad when comparatively it is better in most ways to our past.

                  1. I have asked him a couple of times. Note that he is the one who said blacks are born with inherent disabilities. Perhaps that is why he decided to hire none.

              1. Bythebook,
                “only a few in either era could afford that workmanship”

                I agree that the level of workmanship in that home was beyond the reach of most families and still is, in many ways. But not entirely. Wood floors were the norm in many modest homes, wood trim. My great-great grandparents, farmers, built the old family farmhouse that is still standing and still lived in. It has beautiful architectural bones and lovely nooks and crannies. My grandfathers built beautiful walnut furniture for themselves.

                They were ordinary people who practiced workmanship in their own lives and own homes.

                1. That’s nice and I hope it’s still in your family. I have actually built a fair number of houses with old school wood floors, nail down t&g, not the plywood called “engineered wood flooring”.In those days, wood flooring could be pretty funky by modern standards, even in the better homes. The Lee/Washington house in Arlington National Cemetary is an example – wide knotty pine blanks with large gaps. People nowadays expect gym floor smooth tight and perfect. My own floor is southern pine, considered a step down from oak though traditional here, unless it’s river recovered hear pine. $$$$

                  1. Happily, it is still in the family. The floors are definitely a little odd but beautiful in their own way. The curved wooden banister was fun to slide down when no one was looking.

                    I like the more narrow boards for floors despite the current fashion being the wider floors. Large gaps or missing knots are an inconvenient hazard for marbles and Legos, so tight t&g is fine with me. 😉

      2. I wonder how come White Flight sooo affects the blacks who are left??? I mean, blacks used to be kangz, and they built the whole United States to hear them tell it. So how come the blacks can’t build up St. Louis and make it a truly wonderful place – a veritable showplace like Detroit of Baltimore? Well, maybe not Detroit or Baltimore. But maybe like Montpelier!

        Because if all the Whites leave an area, there goes all the White Privilege right along with them! Why isn’t White Flight a good thing for blacks???

        Squeeky Fromm
        Girl Reporter

        1. Squeaky, once cities hemorrhage population it becomes a downward spiral that’s hard to stop. Real estate values go down, down, down.

          However beauful that mansion in Saint Louis looks, I bet it’s cheap compared to similar mansions on Chicago’s lakefront. And I’ll bet it’s ‘dirt cheap’ by Beverly Hills standards.

          1. Huh??? Cheap real estate is an opportunity! Poor folks can live in nice houses on the cheap! Again I ask, why can’t blacks ever seem to take advantage of these situations?

            Squeeky Fromm
            Girl Reporter

            1. Rebuilding old houses is not cheap, especially as new codes dictate, and most blacks who don’t already live in the burbs don’t make enough.

                  1. @btb

                    Lefties love to claim poverty is the main determinate of whether an area is dangerous to visit or live. If that were so West Virginia would be the most violent place in the world. Of course it isn’t, not even close.


                    1. West Virginia beautiful country and I have driven it from one end to the other. I predict it will be a place for future development of healthy and safe communities.

                      There is a well known socially degraded element there, but they should not be treated like animals in the zoo and constantly berated by Hollywood (movies like “Winter’s Bone” which is set in the Ozarks, same diff) They are often the descendants of hardy Scots Irish folk, patriotic, resourceful, brave, individualistic people, and often have an indigenous ancestry of which they’re also proud, whether actual or legendary. And yet, without engaging in all this anti-American nonsense that we hear from the university types presuming to represent the indigenous communities.

                      These are wonderful fine Americans, poor or not, and although I prefer the Smoky Mountains I should like to visit there again soon.

                      Here is a song that traces its origins to Scotland as well; well known country covers, this one by Johnny Cash, also sacred harp style and bluegrass, with a history including the War between the States as well.

                      I celebrate this part of our American heritage and it is part of our “kollektives Unbewusstes” as the great German psychologist Jung would call it

        2. “Why isn’t White Flight a good thing for blacks???

          Squeeky Fromm”


          White flight is racist and hurts blacks

          Whites moving into a black ‘hood is racist gentrification and hurts blacks.

          Understand now? I don’t.

          1. @young

            White flight is racist and hurts blacks

            Whites moving into a black ‘hood is racist gentrification and hurts blacks.

            Understand now? I don’t.

            Kind of like, heads I win, tails you lose.



        3. Squeeky – read or re-read Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations is just as effective today as it was when it was written. This is why one of the demands of CHAZ/CHOP is degentrification.

            1. The Illiad is more to the point. If you are a Trojan you will be slaughtered once the walls come down.

              Dont accept the Trojan horse– that is the “gift” of diversity

          1. Having CHAZ move in will degentrify the place instantaneously. Even Starbucks would move out. Their bathrooms will hold only so many bums and drug users.

        4. A few years back me and my wife were in New York City for a trade show. While we were there we took a ride on a tour bus. The tour guide was quite the liberal. When we going through Harlem he was visibly upset by the fact that white people were moving into Harlem. I guess he didn’t like the cultural appropriation of those white folk. Your a racist if your involved in white flight and your not appreciated if you move into a black neighborhood. You just can’t win.

      3. Peter – that house was built in 1908 and was featured in St Louis Magazine after a major renovation which included the vaulted ceiling and marble circular staircase. Pictures of the house are available on Twitter. It is a house worth saving.

  8. This is the condition of America: Anarchy. Under the Constitution, these residents have a right to keep and bear arms and a right to private property “…in the exclusion of every other individual.” The anarchists have manifestly committed crimes and should have been arrested and prosecuted for trespass and threats of mayhem against individual citizens. The government, including police departments and district attorneys, are out of touch with American constitutional freedom and their duty to facilitate it. The government including elected officials, police departments and district attorneys support the criminals. The anarchists conduct their activities with the understanding that no discipline will be imposed against them. A society without discipline is anarchy, precisely the environment totalitarian communists, including Feminazi White Shirts, thrive in. What were Americans thinking when they commenced the conquest of the hyphenates during “Crazy Abe” Lincoln’s wholly unconstitutional “Reign of Terror” culminating in the illegitimate “Reconstruction Amendments?” America is at the point where Americans are not allowed to protect themselves against the barbarians whom someone allowed inside the gates. Here come the “Truth Commissions.” Whatever shall free people do, cower?

    America is in a condition of hysteria, incoherence, chaos, anarchy and rebellion.

    President Abraham Lincoln seized power, neutralized the legislative and judicial branches and ruled by executive order and proclamation to “Save the Union.”

    President Donald Trump must now seize power, neutralize the legislative and judicial branches and rule by executive order and proclamation to “Save the Republic.”

  9. This is an excellent article that would explain our current age of rage.

    The powerless person—cursed by Medusa—begins to imagine that his unhappiness is not caused simply by one person or one incident or even a collection of incidents. Instead, it is part of a larger pattern and a larger group of people… Once the Resentment is directed toward a group of people, it widens out. A conspiracy mentality develops…. Before long, this slave of Medusa finds other slaves who also wallow in their frustration, and their Resentment builds into rage. They form a group to nurse their Resentment and resist the imagined enemy group that has caused the problems…. The Resentment group is not satisfied with discussion and debate. They want action. They need to go to war against the enemy. They develop an identity and demand change…

    It doesn’t matter what identity and ideology it is…. Despite their noble ideals and good intentions, the activism is driven by Resentment, Rivalry, and Revenge, and it is relentless. It will not stop and cannot stop…. When the resentful form into a collective mob, it is truly frightening to see. Their Resentment and rage render them irrational. There is no discussion with the slaves of Medusa. They are obsessed with their righteous crusade because it has become the source of their self-esteem. Unwilling to compromise, they are driven by an unholy energy….

    They can never be appeased because they do not want their problem to be solved…. When I say that “they can never be appeased,” I do not mean you should not attempt to appease them, but even if you do, they will not be satisfied. They breathe the air of Resentment. They need Resentment as a vampire needs blood. If you appease them, if you give what they demand, they will throw it back in your face with anger and demand something else or something more. (48-49)

    1. Good to see you engage in self reflection Olly. Maybe you can start a group for after the election.

      1. I want to start a conversation about a racial partition of lower 48 states of America into two separate nation states.

        region a is for black folks. 100% population transfer, peaceful but compulsory, with economic assistance for the move. the region will be: the former Confederacy. Let’s just say blacks won the Civil war, and they get to keep the South now. That’s a one time deal, a big reparation. We can provide no interest economic development loans.

        On the white side: no permanent migration for any reason of black people from anywhere. none. visitors and tourists and diplomats welcome but residents and workers, not. we white folks will never live down the legacy of slavery without reparations? Ok but once they are paid, gone, never again, not slaves nor workers nor anything. Race based citizenship and residency requirements specifically legal as a constitutional matter.

        We work out a deal on dividing US debt and federal assets. White side keeps the nukes, sorry.

        Mexicans get Texas. but no more migration, and no more guilt trips. Azatlan they want to call it I hear, ok! call it whatever you like. Or maybe Hispancs can just go wherever they think they belong. If they’re white hispanics, ok, welcome. but no guilt trips.

        Native Americans, keep their reservations, and I would want to offer them more choice land for reservations to sweeten the deal, in the rump white America too, as respected elders.

        Silicon Valley can have all of California if they want. But they’re gonna pay a tax to us. All of us. They brought us to this hateful public moment and they will pay for it, literally, to be resolved., one way or another. Or we can smite them, I really hate Silicon Valley now more than anyone. That’s for sure.

        Self loathing guilty feeling white folks can go live in the New African American states of America if they like, The Democrats ran the Confederacy before and they can have it back! Or they can go live in California, whatever. But if they want to live in the rump white America, no complaining about race ever again, no more guilt trips, not allowed. Now some troublemakers will ask, who’s white>? If you look white and say you’re white you are. There is never really a problem with white people when it comes to that. In jail it’s always clear and yes Jews are white. heck we can have tolerance for Muslims too, but no race issues. No way. That’s off the table. But person for person, no need for quibbling, if they want to be on the team they are. the old rules were simple. did you pass? Now if you dont like that, go live in California or the new Afro-state.

        Asian people are the most peaceful and productive element of the current American human population and we would all probably welcome them and compete for them if we were smart. I know some racist white guys who love Asians. I have a feeling they arent the problem now and never will be a problem. I’m gonna point out that in places like Hong Kong whites and Asians lived side by side a century with almost zero racial problem. Singapore, you name it. The animosity towards white people is coming from blacks, lets be real simple and honest about that, by and large.

        I think that if we let the George Soros of the world keep enflaming black hatred of white America like happening now, a race war will break out. It will be ugly and it need not come to that. But i seriously believe black people hate white people as a group, they always will, and I want a divorce. Let’s make a deal.

        White liberals who don’t like the c onversation should stay out of it. Free speech and all. Then go live in one place or another where you think you are welcome but no more hassling people to “live together” when very few people really want that deep down.

        Or, maybe we can keep this simple. Democrats get the old Confederacy and take the descendants of slaves and African immigrants with you. they’re 90^% on your side anyhow. We just don’t want to be together anymore; time for a divorce.

          1. ha, probably not. but i thought it would be interesting to have a peaceful discussion about it
            its worth a try?

            Iceland is a no go. They’re not letting Americans relocate and it’s too cold.
            Here’s a funny story about American head of the brownshirts the former Navy pilot Commander Geo Lincoln Rockwell, a hero of the Korean war
            He was actually married to a hot girl from Iceland and she had money too. Somehow he decided to dump her, and move back to America and become a self appointed fuhrer. figure that one out. what a nut.

            I may move to Costa Rica or maybe Vietnam. Nha Trang looks good right now. Five year plan.
            Singapore is too expensive. Macau probably too. Maybe buy a bed and breakfast in Chiang Mai? Sounds like a peaceful retirement gig
            I have a friend who has one family vacation home in Cambodia and another one in Malaysia.
            Builders. Maybe I could go beg him for a job working over English language contracts.
            Australia maybe. Who knows. I m not going to be harassed by blacks the rest of my life for being a white guy I tell you that.
            I am sick to death just with reading garbage on the internet and the news. It’s 24/7 guilt trips now. Even a liberal like you should feel disgusted.
            As if you personally had a whole plantation of slaves like Jefferson!
            The only thing I am agreeing with BLM now is I’ve come to feel disgust for Jefferson and the plantation plutocrats who left us with this problem.
            If America now means Jack Dorsey is higher than the President, and I have to pay the rest of my life for Jefferson’s sins,
            then it’s a crap deal for me and people like me too. I will fight it while i can and cut bait if whitey doesn’t rally. It’s looking grim let me tell ya.

            Think about that over the weekend when there are no large public fireworks displays for 4th of July but BLM can keep on with their huge “peaceful protests”
            They’re rubbing our noses in the dirt. I am sick of it.

            If that means I have to be a permanent foreigner and a racial minority in a law abiding nation of others, I guess I could live with it. But it’s not easy to move and I might never be able to afford it or live that long,. I guess we will find out.

            1. Nr Kurtz – before you move to the land of Oz. watch Daisy Cousens on YT. She is there and they have their problems, too.

            2. Kurtz, poor you!

              I don’t know how you stand living in the wealthiest country in the world, probably making in the top 10%, and at a time when crime is way down and even riots are biracial. Woe is me!!

              Try getting off the internet. You can’t handle it apparently and it’s convincing you problems exist where they don’t. 24/7 cable news and right wing radio exaggerate differences in a centrist country where there are no Nazi or Communist parties represented in legislatures (unlike much of the rest of the world) and no one – except on JT’s blog – believes in slavery or even racial prejudice. Top it off with the fact that Kurtz’s party has governmental representation in all 3 branches larger than their vote counts and national importance.

              Yeah, poor you!

              1. Try getting off the internet. You can’t handle it apparently and it’s convincing you problems exist where they don’t.

                Hmm. 🤔 You dishing out that advice after your tilting at windmills for 3.5 years is as hypocritical as it gets. Wow!

    2. Aside the symbolic element of the stoniness that Medusa inflicts on people, that there is a stoniness about resentment, even a weighted stagnation, I think I’ve missed other mythic associations of being slaves of Medusa.

      Is it because slaves are bound to their master but these slaves cannot even look at that which is causing their problems?

      1. Is it because slaves are bound to their master but these slaves cannot even look at that which is causing their problems?

        Good questions PR. I believe if they become conditioned by their master that the source of their condition lies elsewhere, then they and their master have a common enemy. Once they reach that point, they are lost and will never see the true root of their misery.

    3. And right now, the response by many of those who don’t have actual resentment at their personal situation is to adopt that resentment and join in their demands. For the truly resentful folks, they very well could see this as their once in a lifetime opportunity for real change.

      For the moment, let’s not get lost in the actual root causes of their resentment and the ridiculous ideas they have for change.

      If Trump wins in November, I do have to wonder if enough of the resentful will feel like there is no hope other than armed rebellion or something else disastrous.

      Now, back to root causes and ridiculous ideas. The root cause of their resentment are the corrupt civil rights leaders like Sharpton and Jackson, among many, many others, who have sewn these seeds of resentment at a great profit for decades. Until that crowd loses power, this will not go away. And I include BLM as a modern incarnation of that industry. The ridiculous ideas shouldn’t even have to be explained. The most basic of these is the so-called systematic racism in American police forces. This has been debunked so many times its not even funny. What they really SHOULD want is more funding for police, not less, so the police can get better training. Non-criminals in poor communities want that, but their ‘leaders’ don’t ask them and don’t care what they want.

      1. The root causes of their resentment is not other people. They happily feed what is already there. Accepting your responsibility in your own troubles is a terrible thing to face, as Medusa is terrible to face. Suggesting the fault of resentment lies in others absolves the resentful, again, of shouldering the responsibility of facing their own participation in their troubles.

        1. PR,
          I understand your point and agree that rational human beings are responsible for their own actions. But once rationality has been lost and these people have become nothing more than clay, then we have to look at who have set themselves up as their masters.

          1. Olly,
            I cannot quite agree. Children, the mentally disabled, and the insane are not legally responsible for their actions. Children are responsible to a certain extent as they learn and grow. Otherwise, rational or not, human beings are responsible for their actions.

            Emotions are the main impetus behind a good many crimes, yet people are rarely acquitted for crimes of passion, unless I am sadly mistaken.

            I agree that they, in some ways are like clay/stone, being molded and twisted by Medusas. But not quite.

            The Medusa concept does not quite fit. Medusa turns someone into stone. In this case, they have allowed themselves to be like clay, you are right, meaning the qualities allowing manipulation were already present.

            They are responsible for their emotions, too. You get to choose whether or not you let someone wrap you around an axle, so to speak.

            1. Prairie Rose,
              I am by no means excusing the choices people make because they function like a lump of clay. I’m not sure if you’ve read this before, but Kant describes the phenomenon better than I have. It’s not very long and here is a small portion of it.

              Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why such a large part of mankind gladly remain minors all their lives, long after nature has freed them from external guidance. They are the reasons why it is so easy for others to set themselves up as guardians. It is so comfortable to be a minor. If I have a book that thinks for me, a pastor who acts as my conscience, a physician who prescribes my diet, and so on–then I have no need to exert myself. I have no need to think, if only I can pay; others will take care of that disagreeable business for me. Those guardians who have kindly taken supervision upon themselves see to it that the overwhelming majority of mankind–among them the entire fair sex–should consider the step to maturity, not only as hard, but as extremely dangerous. First, these guardians make their domestic cattle stupid and carefully prevent the docile creatures from taking a single step without the leading-strings to which they have fastened them. Then they show them the danger that would threaten them if they should try to walk by themselves. Now this danger is really not very great; after stumbling a few times they would, at last, learn to walk. However, examples of such failures intimidate and generally discourage all further attempts.

  10. In the old days in the South some sheriff’s and deputies were Klan members. The Klan never got arrested.

    1. “The couple called the cops. Where were they?”
      And there’s the problem.

      Even anti-gun liberals in California are lining up to buy guns now.

          1. That indeed is a classic, and to Rubin’s credit he engaged the subject matter instead of getting dismissive.

            Rubin claims that he’s a liberal in the classic sense, and classical liberalism now seems to have much more in common with current American conservatism than libtardism. So I can see how and why he could comprehend Elder’s argument at the moment and then be utterly convinced later on.

          2. Squeeky – one of Crowder’s advertisers is Walther and they are buying Tim Pool his first gun. 🙂

    1. Ivan, the report is about somebody getting out of a car with a weapon at 10 pm. The protesters who the McCloskey’s interacted with walked through a gate about 5 feet wide and in the daylight.

      1. What will you do if they destroy your gate and come on your property while the police shelter in place at Dunkin Donuts?

  11. This gray area concerning what is and isn’t lawful when it comes to the rights of Americans to bear arms and use them is peppered with precedents that illustrate the almost completely out of control condition stemming from the perverse interpretation of the second amendment. Kent State was a precedent, where national guard rookies defended themselves by shooting to death four students and wounding several others, all unarmed and posing no threat against their lives. Zimmerman’s manslaughter of Martin is another.

    Precedents taken to one extreme support America moving in a direction of lawful slaughter first ask questions later. Precedents taken to the other extreme support incarcerating people who defend themselves with guns as a last resort. The determination as to how far in either direction one can go before breaking the law is left up to the majority interpretation of the issue of gun rights. Unfortunately the majority wants more gun control, regulations, accountability but the elected representatives are in the pocket of the NRA and the gun manufacturing lobbies who will financially support the downfall of whomever attempts to vote the way the majority of the people want.

    The two directions have decidedly different potentials. The gunslinger direction will inevitably lead to more death and mayhem as is being foreshadowed by the police brutality on which this incident is focused. The just cause and it better be just direction leads to a reduction of vigilante mayhem, idiot wannabe cops armed and interfering with the citizenry, and an eventual need for any and everyone to pack a piece.

    Statistics and world history show, without any gray area that the more guns are regulated and controlled, the fewer deaths; and that the more guns, the higher the death rate. The only question that need be asked of America is whether or not this stupidity can be reversed or whether it is too far gone.

    1. Statistics and world history show, without any gray area that the more guns are regulated and controlled, the fewer deaths; and that the more guns, the higher the death rate.

      There are currently more guns in America then there are citizens.

      If guns were the problem, we’d all know it by now, and you wouldn’t have to lie about it.

      1. There are currently more guns in America then there are citizens.

        Thanks for helping prove my point.

        US guns per 100 people-120, gun deaths per 100,000-12.5, Canadian guns per 100-34, gun deaths per 100,000-2, French guns per 100 people-15, gun deaths per 100,000-3, and so on.

        1. @issacbasonkavich

          Canada doesn’t have the demographic and crime problems of the United States. I am a LEGAL firearms owner and whenever (if ever) someone breaks in my home (G-D forbid) to hurt my family or me, they WILL have a RUDE awakening. And I don’t care if it is a member of BLM, Brave Masked Wonderful Warriors of Antifa (TM) or just some plain old meth smoking redneck, my response will be the same.

          You can depend on your phone and cops showing up on time, and while my family will call the cops, I will also depend on other means. And I really could care less what you (or any other s@@tlib) thinks about me or this post. It is that simple. I will still be alive, you may not.


          1. The odds are higher that antonio will shoot a relative, neighbor, himself, or that his guns will be used on him by others than that he’ll shoot a criminal.

            1. The odds are higher that antonio will shoot a relative, neighbor, himself, or that his guns will be used on him by others than that he’ll shoot a criminal.

              [CITATION NEEDED]

            2. @btb

              You know nothing about me or my background. You really don’t. Ex-military, combat veteran with a CIB, quite familiar with weapons, I realize you have your hopes up but I wouldn’t bet on that one.

              To each his own though, you can depend on your phone and hope the police will get there in time, I will depend on other methods (in addition to the police). And I don’t care if you call me a bad name for it.

              Don’t have white liberal disease of having to be liked by minorities and the left.

              I consider myself “pro choice” regarding firearms (and hunting too). Amazed how other pro choice, “tolerance’ types aren’t crazy about my choices. Not saying YOU have to own firearms. Won’t force you but bet you would take mine away if you could.


            3. Don’t lay them odds on me! I hit what I aim at. My father and other family members taught me how to shoot, and I am not bad at it. I can work an AK47 like clockwork, although I hate to take that little cleany thing out of the stock because that is a sure nail ruiner. I guess I am OK with my tactical knives too, although all I have ever fought with is a dummy. My father did make me stab a deer carcass so I would know how much force I had to use to get thru the skin and hurt somebody. I hated that, but the deer was already dead, just not processed yet.

              Squeeky Fromm
              Girl Reporter

              1. “The newest study of police shooting accuracy in deadly force encounters reflects the experience of just one municipal department. But to whatever extent the findings can be generalized, the picture is indeed a disturbing one.

                Researchers analyzed 149 real-life OISs recorded over a 15-year period by Dallas (TX) PD. In nearly half of these encounters, officers firing at a single suspect delivered “complete inaccuracy.” That is, they missed the target entirely.

                In 15 incidents, the total number of rounds fired could not be determined. But in the 134 cases where researchers could establish that figure, they calculated the hit rate, “incredibly,” at merely 35 percent. In other words, more than six out of 10 rounds fired were misses.

                “Unfortunately,” the study says, “the data do not provide a clear picture of what happened with these [errant] rounds, but, at worst, they struck other officers or innocent bystanders.”

                The research team, Dr. Christopher Donner and Nicole Popovich of the CJ department at Loyola U. in Chicago, note that “although the amount – and quality – of firearms training received by officers over the last century has increased considerably, there appears to have been little improvement in shooting accuracy.”..”


                1. Anon – that study is somewhat bogus. When in high stress situations, the first thing that goes is you fine motor skills. We see the same number of bullets shot to injuries and deaths in Civil War battles. If you want to up the training, you have to have the targets firing live rounds back

                  1. Paul C– a few years ago a crazed man in a pickup truck aimed it at the back gate of the Governor’s mansion in Austin and stepped on the gas. There were several state troopers guarding the mansion and they were at the back gate. And, these troopers visit the range regularly and frequently are in high stress situations. Even so, with ten or so shots fired, only two hit the pick up truck. Adrenalin is hell on a person’s aim.

                    1. honestlawyer – it is biological. Your fine motor skills go because need the gross motor skills to throw a spear or use a bow

                    2. “honestlawyer – it is biological. Your fine motor skills go because need the gross motor skills to throw a spear or use a bow”

                      Interesting, but it sounds more like correlation than causation.

            4. I have a piece in my safe that my grandfather used to fire on a black burglar about 80 years ago. SW M & P 38 with long barrel. He missed at close range. And he was a combat veteran.

              It’s harder than it looks but once the dragon barks and breathes fire, most crooks will flee.

              I believe in leaving guns locked up subject to quick retrieval when the time is right. It is a concern that they can be misused and nobody should acquire a gun without the will and discipline to keep it safe.

              It’s hard to count suicides in the same batch with genuine accidents. Suicide is awful but can it be stopped? Japan has a high rate of suicide with knives.

              And a lot of firearms accidents may actually be miscounted suicides. There used to be a form of white lie about this which was often told, so and so had a firearms accident, to allow a family to save face. I have heard of other forms of suicide counted as accidents too. Including overdoses quite a bit.

              Here we get into a different territory. What do people have to live for? How do they feel about their place in society?

              Fact is white men have increasing rates of suicide for decades. Taking guns away is not the answer. Meaningful social existence is the answer.

              WHITE MEN ACCOUNTED FOR 7 OUT OF 10 SUICIDES IN 2016. this is an EPIDEMIC that the “news” could care less about.


          2. Antonio

            It’s not gun ownership or self defense that is the issue here. In Canada, anyone who is legally allowed may own a fire arm and if any Canadian is attacked and uses that fire arm in self defense, the law stands behind that citizen. Owning guns and defending oneself is not the question here. The propensity for an America who is armed to the teeth to shoot first is the issue. This includes the police who shoot without provocation: the guy who ran from the cop because there was a warrant out for unpaid child support and the cop shot him in the back while he was running away, the cop that drove up and shot immediately the kid with the toy gun, the cop that shot-as a first response-the guy who had stolen his taser and was running away, the mindless nuisance Zimmerman who dogged Martin and then when he was getting a beating shot Martin, etc. The list goes on and on and unique to America it is defended by the perverse interpretation of some mythological amendment. Statistically, among its peer nations and most others, the US stands well above the norm in death by guns. The issue is not guns and self defense but the perversion these two things. This is a fact, when the people of the US are polled they register on average over 75% in favor of stricter regulation of fire arms. Yet because the US is an oligarchy where concentrated funding determines election results, our brave Senators both Democrat and Republican, stand behind the NRA and the gun lobbies. These homeowners were on the line. They brandished weapons but did not fire. They and the morons who brandished weapons at their state capital protesting social distancing represent a step unique to the US of irresponsible gun ownership, defended by a perverse interpretation of a myth.

            1. @issac

              Here we go about St. Trayvon Martin again! Not only acquitted in criminal court but cleared or any wrongdoing by the Obama DOJ.
              The proper thing for anyone similarly situated as Zimmerman to remember is that you are taking one for “social justice” while your head is getting beat into the concrete.

              I know you would do so as a morally superior lefty, unlike a deplorable like me.


              1. Does anybody on this blog actually know someone who is not in the military or involved in law enforcement who has actually shot someone. Because I don’t know anyone has done this. Maybe I lead a sheltered life.

                1. I don’t, but when I was younger (in college), I was awoken in bed by robbers in my room at night. Twice. I was unarmed both times and terrified at night for months afterwards.

                  Nowadays, I’m not one of those people who says I’m not sure if I could shoot an intruder.

                2. Independent Bob– Not exactly, but I represented a client in a lawsuit against a gun manufacturer. My client’s friend was laying a hunting rifle down on the front seat of a pickup while my client was standing on the other side. The gun discharged and a bullet slammed into by client’s abdomen, nearly killing him. The gun’s trigger was never touched. An East Texas jury put 60% of the blame on my client’s friend, even though the gun was proven defective because every hunter knows you don’t ever let the barrel of a gun point at anybody.

            2. Canadian Isaac was right about this one:

              “Yet because the US is an oligarchy where concentrated funding determines election results”

              and yet he draws the wrong inferences from this very salient fact

        2. We don’t need to get rid of guns. We need to get rid of Democratic control from the cities where gun deaths can be double digit in one day.

          You have proven that Democrats control of large cities are the proximate cause of gun deaths in the nation.

        3. Not at all, Izzy.

          With roughly 100 million more guns than citizens in America, by your (*Snikcer*) “logic” we alll should have been killed ~1.3 times each.

    2. “Kent State was a precedent, where national guard rookies defended themselves by shooting to death four students and wounding several others, all unarmed and posing no threat against their lives. Zimmerman’s manslaughter of Martin is another.”
      I guess for Issac if “he ain’t lying, he ain’t trying.”

    3. Isaac is a Canadian. Butt out foreigner

      Also a slanderer. That is to say a liar. Zimmerman was acquitted. He acted in lawful self defense against the aggressor.

  12. I can’t make a call if the couple are right or wrong. I don’t think they came out to show off their weapons. I think they’re alarmed and scared. On Sunday I went to a gun show and it was packed with men and women. Weapons of every caliber were leaving the building, the buyers were all licensed and trained. I made a point to talk to a couple of them and secret the question “why are you buying” they all answered in one why or another “because of the Democrats”. They weren’t toothless or deplorable just Americans.

    Good people like the police. As a former cop on the beat there is no system racism with cops, that’s a false narrative. BLM and MSM Love it. When these guys suit up they don’t say “let’s see who can I shoot today”. They are more concerned about studying for the next sargents exam or getting to their part time job.

    If the politicians would stop pandering and back the police, let them give what the majority wants Law and Order, people won’t be armed on their lawns.

    Just a thought.

  13. Only a few short years ago, mobs were bad and law abiding citizens were good, even those who protected their property from the mob. Today, for some of the people on this blog, lawless mobs are good and the law abiding are bad. These are the say-anything types. We’ve all known some. I think that when they were growing up, their mommies protected them on the playground so they never learned that bad behavior can have consequences. I got more than one bloody nose and I gave out a few. Together we learned about boundaries and right and wrong. Now, instead of their mommies shielding them, they have democrats encouraging them to care only about themselves, blindly accept and repeat false claims and to depend on the handouts the democrats choose to give them. They are taught that any kind of higher loyalty is for conservatives and other fools. Their democrat mommies set the example by embracing BLM who are even more scornful of any higher loyalty, especially any loyalty based on American or religious values. The undeniable fact is that the democrat mommies and their followers who post here have chosen Marxists cop haters bent on destroying America over ordinary citizens of all races and ethnicity who actually built this country. At the end of the day, if they prevail, there will be nothing to show for their actions except a pile of ashes.

    1. Other than trespassing – a necessary act to protest the Mayor’s actions at her home – there is no evidence this was a mob, or if there is, what is it? There is no other reported property damage or acts of violence, are there?

      1. They threatened to kill him, his wife, and their dog. They threatened to burn down his house and his business. They carried weapons onto private property and one of the people who threatened the owner loaded his gun at the same time. That is what the homeowner said. That is evidence of multiple crimes committed against this family by that group of people. Calling them a mob is fair, but we’ll let a court decide.

      2. “Other than trespassing –a necessary act to protest the Mayor’s actions at her home – there is no evidence this was a mob, or if there is, what is it? There is [SIC] no other reported property damage or acts of violence, are there?”

        One “act of trespassing” is all that’s needed to be criminal. There were somewhere between 100 and 500 acts of trespassing, one per person.

        The fact that 100-500 persons illegally entered a private, gated community constitutes a mob.

        One act of property damage, IE: the broken-down gate, constitutes criminality.

        The fact that you defend all of these criminal acts while maligning the homeowners tells us all we need to know about you.

        1. The fact that you defend all of these criminal acts while maligning the homeowners tells us all we need to know about you.

          Given his history on this blog of being wrong about nearly every legal position imaginable, all anyone interested in law and justice need to do is just keep handing him more shovels.

          1. Given his history on this blog of being wrong about nearly every legal position imaginable, all anyone interested in law and justice need to do is just keep handing him more shovels.

            I’m an Engineer by trade and training, with little legal background other than self-teaching and common sense, and I see right through “By The Book”‘s BS.

            And he’s done this more than once? Wow. Just, wow……

            1. And he’s done this more than once?

              My background on the law is similar to what you describe. Much of what gets posted on this blog by book and others defies common sense. The effort they put in just to take a contrary position to what the facts and evidence prove is extraordinary. They talk about the rule of law, justice and honesty and then like clockwork, dishonestly take positions against the rule of law and equal justice. Their hypocrisy seems limitless.

        2. Technically true Va, but since trespassing was the only means for approaching the mayor’s home – the subject of their protest – indicative of their purpose to protest and not malicious destruction of property.

          1. Technically true Va,…

            Well, since law is based solely on technicalities, you should have clammed up right there.

            ….but since trespassing was the only means for approaching the mayor’s home – the subject of their protest – indicative of their purpose to protest and not malicious destruction of property.

            So, you’re now asserting that the “Mayor’s home” was the subject of their protest?

            You make less sense with each passing post, but please, do continue…

            1. Va, I don;t think it is in dispute that the Mayor’s homes was where they were going and to protest something you may have been angry about as well. The mayor publicly read off the names and addresses of citizens who had emailed the city advocating to defund the police. That information became public as soon as they pushed send – a fact many may not have realized – but probably only seen by the freaks who read emails sent to mayors and city councilmen. Should they have the right to trespass to approach the Mayor;s house? No, but that hardly makes them a bunch of vandals indiscriminately destroying white peoples house – many if not most appear to be white themselves – as the McCloskey’s allege.

              I understand the actions of the McCloskeys but it looks like they might have overreacted and made the situation worse. What I also understand and find depressing is the knee jerk reaction of most on this thread who think this is a defining issue of the day and is a white vs black issue. Given that many of you here are similarly probably lawyers doing well, I get the identification. I don’t get the lack of critical thinking about what happened and the visceral and vicarious thrill so many of you are getting out of it.

              1. Va, I don;t [SIC] think it is in dispute that the Mayor’s [SIC] homes was where they were going and to protest something you may have been angry about as well.

                Between 100 and 500 people illegally broke through a locked gate, and illegally trespassed.

                Full stop.

                But wait, there’s more!:

                “Police labeled the incident a case of trespassing and assault by intimidation.”

                Doesn’t sound very “peaceful” to me…

                The mayor publicly read off the names and addresses of citizens who had emailed the city advocating to defund the police. That information became public as soon as they pushed send – a fact many may not have realized – but probably only seen by the freaks who read emails sent to mayors and city councilmen.

                Wait, so some leftists got doxed in the days of “Cancel Culture”?

                That’s just Alinsky #4, Brah:

                4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

                Your side doesn’t like it when the tables are turned, no?

                Should they have the right to trespass to approach the Mayor;s house? No, but that hardly makes them a bunch of vandals indiscriminately destroying white peoples house – many if not most appear to be white themselves – as the McCloskey’s allege.

                You would have been smart to have stopped at the end of what I bolded above to save face.


                I understand the actions of the McCloskeys but it looks like they might have overreacted and made the situation worse. What I also understand and find depressing is the knee jerk reaction of most on this thread who think this is a defining issue of the day and is a white vs black issue. Given that many of you here are similarly probably lawyers doing well, I get the identification. I don’t get the lack of critical thinking about what happened and the visceral and vicarious thrill so many of you are getting out of it.

                They didn’t make the situation worse, nobody but you has made it a black/white issue, I’m not a lawyer, and I’m disgusted, not thrilled, that my fellow Americans are being subjected to the viscous Marxist mobs that you are defending.

                One last thing, the undecided voters are watching and listening to what your Marxist mobs are saying/doing.

                Think they like what they see?

                1. Va, I’m happy to see you agree that going to the Mayor’s house was the goal. You questioned that previously.

                  Something tells me you’d be unhappy if you wrote an email to your mayor and she read your name and address out in public, but hey, .maybe not. I would be.

                  The rest of your rant is pure partisan nonsense not worth comment. You don’t care what happened here, you want to scratch your resentment itch- see Olly’s illuminating post on the subject.

                  1. Va, I’m happy to see you agree that going to the Mayor’s house was the goal. You questioned that previously.

                    But that’s not what you said.

                    This is what you said:

                    ….but since trespassing was the only means for approaching the mayor’s home – the subject of their protest – indicative of their purpose to protest and not malicious destruction of property.

                    Phrased as such, you indicated that they were protesting her home.

                    Perhaps you meant “Object”.

                    Perhaps you’ll choose your words more carefully next time.

                    Something tells me you’d be unhappy if you wrote an email to your mayor and she read your name and address out in public, but hey, .maybe not. I would be.

                    Write something stupid and/or hateful in 2020, run this risk of getting doxxed.

                    Alinksy #4, Brah….

                    The rest of your rant is pure partisan nonsense not worth comment. You don’t care what happened here, you want to scratch your resentment itch- see Olly’s illuminating post on the subject.

                    Ahhh, the old leftist trope “I’d respond/research/etc. if was worth my time”.

                    Pro Tip:You guys need a new playbook.

                    PS: Do you think the voters like what they are seeing out of you and yours?

                    1. Va Gent – the goal of the Crusaders was to get to the Holy Land and fight the Muslims. However, several groups killed a lot of Jews on their way there. Just wanted to point that out.

          2. They shouldn’t go to the mayor’s home. That is a bridge too far. An office, fine. Not a person’s home.

      3. trespassing to protest is not “necessary” it is just a misdemeanor crime

        breaking and entering a curtilate to tresspass and threaten a homeowner’s life or to kill their dog, is itself possibly the felony crime of “intimidation”

        it was a mob alright

      4. why is it necessary for anyone to protest against a politician at their home?

        note: i’m skipping all the idiocy already pointed out by others.

        1. Protesting at a politician’s was wonderful until the protest came to the homes of Democrat mayors of Olympia and Seattle and just like that it was terrorism.

    1. You’d think this would have served as a wake up call to other white Democrat leaders, but apparently they don’t learn.

  14. Meanwhile:

    “Top officials in the White House were aware in early 2019 of classified intelligence indicating Russia was secretly offering bounties to the Taliban for the deaths of Americans, a full year earlier than has been previously reported, according to U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the intelligence.

    The assessment was included in at least one of President Donald Trump’s written daily intelligence briefings at the time, according to the officials. Then-national security adviser John Bolton also told colleagues he briefed Trump on the intelligence assessment in March 2019….”

    1. This whole story stinks like fake, both in its reported details and its timing. Why would Russians pay someone else to do their dirty work when they’re so effective and sneaky at doing it themselves? Heck, they’ve got a whole arsenal of their nuke-grade chemical poisons and other weapons up their sleeves, and plenty of well trained murderers at their disposal. I don’t believe that they’d farm out their killing to anyone else. And the timing with upcoming election, come on. Especially when the whole country had to suffer through 3 years of Russian nothing burgers.

    2. Couldn’t change any minds with your laughable defense of the lawless Marxist rioter in St. Louis, so now you break out some fake news instead?

      Begone, Communist filth.

      1. Mr Kurtz,
        I think it’s funny ‘the Russisns!’ is being trotted out when it’s China we ought to be worried about. The legerdmain is getting sloppy.

        1. Prarie Rose the simple reason is that the Silicon Valley censors hate Donald because they want their deals making the iphones with slave labor in China to go on unimpeded by trade sanctions which cut into their profits; and the Democrat leadership gets a lot of money from the CCP laundered various ways; and other financial oligarchs like Geo Soros love to truck with the CCP, see how they cozy up to the likes of Wang Qishan at Davos, world economic forum. Soros wants “Free trade” by which he means both commerce unimpeded by trade restrictions and tariffs to benefit American manufacturing, but also, free movement of labor, ie, mass migration to even out wage differentials between nations.

          In short the American plutocracy likes of Apple Bigwigs, Jack Dorsey at Twitter, Google capos, and Geo Soros, and even evil Republicans like the Koch bros who have lost money on agricultural exports; are all in bed with the CCP to get rid of Trump. oh and of course Bezos who owns Amazon and Wapo

          tell everyone you can about these economic angles because that is the only way to get people to understand “WHY” BLM thugs are out on the street– Soros is staging a planned destabilization campaign ie a “color revolution” against Trump, not for any supposed social ideals, just for his own filthy lucre!

          1. Mr. Kurtz,
            Economics is part of the angle, but my gut tells me that ain’t all.

            Power…control…ideology can play a strong role in struggles for dominance. I know we talked briefly of individuation, but could these be, perhaps, a struggle between the dominance of the collective versus that of individuals?

    3. Oh Book you are adorable! You’ve totally lost the argument, so here comes Orange Man Bad!!!!!!!!!!

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