A Tale of Two CNNs: Acosta and Tapper Capture the Worst and Best Moments For A Network Struggling With Objectivity

In Thursday’s briefing, McEnany repeated President Trump’s call for children to go back to school in the fall.

“The science should not stand in the way of this, but as Dr. Scott Atlas said — I thought this was a good quote, ‘Of course, we can do it. Everyone else in the Western world, our peer nations are doing it. We are the outlier here.’ The science is very clear on this. For example, you look at the JAMA pediatric study of 46 pediatric hospitals in North America that said the risk of critical illness from COVID is far less for children than the seasonal flu. The science is on our side here. We encourage localities and states to just simply follow the science. Open our schools.”

She is clearly citing the science as supporting the position of the Administration. However, Acosta clipped the statement to make it sound like McEnany was dismissing the relevance of science:  “The White House Press Secretary on Trump’s push to reopen schools: ‘The science should not stand in the way of this.'”

 

That was clearly and absolutely false.  However, Acosta knew that it would play well in the eco-journalistic model adopted by CNN.  He quickly racked up 30,000 retweets.  He then later added that McEnany actually meant the opposite. That received less than 700 retweets. It is the ultimate example of the demand of many viewers to only hear news that supports their own bias and adds to a type of journalistic comfort zone.

To Acosta’s credit, he sent out the second tweet, but saying “McEnany went on to say ‘the science is on our side here'” does not quite capture the scene.  The quote was McEnany referring to a scientific study and, right after the line quoted, McEnany said “The science is very clear on this.” She then two lines later added “The science is on our side here.” The entire quote was McEnany raising a scientific study that supports their position.  It is akin to a McEnany saying “National security is not relevant because the Defense Department report supports this policy” only to have Acosta tweet “The White House Press Secretary: “National Security is not relevant” in White House policy.

Over at CNN headquarters however Tapper stepped out of that comfort zone and corrected CNN’s chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta after he repeated the same false narrative that McEnany was having an “alternative facts kind of moment.”

Tapper responded: “If I could just say, Sanjay,. I think she was just trying to say that the science shouldn’t stand in the way because the science is on our side. I don’t know that all of the science is on their side- and certainly, this White House, their respect for science knows bounds, let’s put it that way, but I think that’s what she was getting at.”

 

That is why I remain a fan of Tapper.

I have many friends still at CNN who privately lament the changes under President Jeff Zucker, who admitted that the unending focus on Trump was part of his effort to boast ratings.  It is often impossible to distinguish CNN hosts from advocates on their programs. Hosts now engage in open advocacy against the President — discarding with the pretense of having a guest take a partisan position.  I truly miss the old CNN.  Many people feel that there is simply no source of objective news in this environment and are turning off the coverage.  The loss to journalism is immense.  Indeed, if anything, it may be driving people to Trump.

It is clear that Zucker will continue the echo-journalistic model for ratings, just as the New York Times recently abandoned its own journalistic objectivity.  Yet, there remains a a lingering presence at CNN where journalistic objectivity once was the rule.  Call it a “phantom limb” sensation or muscle memory, but it is a reminder of what CNN should be.

188 thoughts on “A Tale of Two CNNs: Acosta and Tapper Capture the Worst and Best Moments For A Network Struggling With Objectivity”

  1. Easy way to destroy the obamanomics myth is just point at the COLA percentages which finished with point zero two of one percent AND the loss of buying power of the dollar which destroyed 30% of that value. There was no great economic boom under Obama unless it was the money siphoned off by DNC politicians.

  2. Perhaps CNN,MSNBC, CBS, ABC. FOX….all of the “news” outlets might just….just….report the news…..with no bias, editorializing, or spin.

    That is the role the Founding Fathers expected of the Press (now Media) to play in our society.

    That in doing so….they would speak truth to power and educate the Voters so they (the voters) could make well informed decisions at election time.

  3. I did a quick search of your thoughts on Fox News…it went as far back as 2012–but you seem to be a fan of Fox as well…yes Fox has some fab folks (Chris Wallace/Brent Baier/) but the “commentators ” (from Hannity, et. al) who were at the forefront of the Jihad against adoption of common sense COVID 19 preventive measures negates any good work that guys like Wallace do (e.g. Chris Wallace challenging Donald Trump on the Joe Biden defunding Police Claim..) although one of the Presidents’ Fans form the Christian Broadcasting Network tried to “Spin it” over Twitter–I can only hope you are as hard hitting on Fox as you are on CNN as despite their “ratings”, they have a lot to answer for as well.

    1. This is what Joe Biden said in a videotaped interview to Barkan: Barkan, asking for a specific affirmation of his initial question, again asked Biden, “Can we agree that we can redirect some of the funding?” To which Biden answered, “Yes! Absolutely!” If one “redirects” funding, one is defunding what the money used to pay for. Is quoting Joe Biden an attempt at spinning?

      1. honestlawyer, obviously mikepouraryan didn’t review what Biden actually said. Wallace did a disfavor to Trump in interrupting Trump to “correct” him. This reminds me of another “journalist” who did this to the Republican (Romney?) during a debate, even though that “journalist” ended up being wrong. It interrupts the flow of the interview when the interviewer does this “gotcha” type thing, and is blatantly biased. I don’t know what’s happened to Wallace lately, but can only assume that he’s fallen into the trap of trying to get kudos at the expense of his honor or professionalism.

    2. The KEY element is buried in your comment. At FOX, anchors are “commentators. At CNN, they still call themselves and are called “Journalists.”

        1. Good Morning Mr. Miller…re: everyone at CNN is a “journalist”, I respectfully ask you to name one.

  4. Yes, we understand the issue. Like you almost never finding fault with Trump and his administration when there are untoward and loathsome mistakes, lies, and perversions DAILY by him and his sycophants. You stretch and reach to find something against anything that levels criticism on your hero, Donald. You, Jonny, once were a level hand. Then Fox bought your soul. Now you are a Trump and company myrmidon. Sad.

    1. RWZ jr, may I ask if you are a son of Ron in the Nixon administration?
      You’re pretty harsh and a little nasty to Prof T. Could you keep it civil & respectful? A serious request. B.

  5. Trump will be out of office either at the end of this this term or a second. Viewers flocking to CNN to hear Trump bashing will look for new entertainment. Then what will Zucker’s news model be? He has destroyed all credibility CNN once had.

      1. And yet….how long has Mr. Tapper been with CNN? Roughly 71/2 years. While I wholeheartedly agree with his excellence as a journalist, I’ve yet to see an iota of his effect on the network as a whole. He appears to stand as a lone voice in the wilderness.

        I suspect you’re engaging in a bit of wishful thinking Mr. Turley.

  6. Don’t underestimate Judge Ginzberg’s ability to will herself to outlive Trump’s ability to replace her. They could easily be converted into two Japanese Movie monsters, the epic battle of wills is must be so great.

    1. I am sure you are correct C. I wish her well, and no suffering. Perhaps the question is: can she survive another 51 months? B

  7. Professor, I have often been rewarded for holding out on a public figure that has shown a bit of the maverick in themselves as you do for Tapper. And as things are going, the culture wars are also tossing out some of those same persons on their politically incorrect arses, and they are always welcome to join the other cast-offs. It’s never too late to learn or unlearn; where their is life there is hope.

  8. The premise of the Professor’s post is that CNN holds objectivity as an important value. That train left the station years ago.

  9. Communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) refuse to call communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs).

    Communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) refuse to call communist (liberal, progressive, socialist, democrat, RINO) propaganda outlets communist (liberal, progressive, socialist, democrat, RINO) propaganda outlets.

    Communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) refuse to call communist (liberal, progressive, socialist, democrat, RINO) indoctrination communist (liberal, progressive, socialist, democrat, RINO) indoctrination.

    Why? Aren’t the communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) proud of their formidable efforts to seize power, “…fundamentally transform the United States…,” completely nullify the Constitution and forcibly impose the yoke of the “dictatorship of the proletariat” on the once-free American people?

    Doesn’t CNN want Americans to know that CNN is inundating them with communist (liberal, progressive, socialist, democrat, RINO) propaganda and indoctrinating them to become good communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs)?

    Why must CNN and the communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) operate in stealth and subterfuge?

    Is CNN’s a Faustian bargain?
    _______________________

    “We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.”

    – William Casey, CIA Director

    1. That is a great line by Mr. Casey (1913-1987). As a former NSA affiliated pencil pusher many long years ago, it makes me smile. In addition we used to hear that ” the dumbing down of America has begun “……I’m afraid it may have been completed quite some time ago. B.

      1. And in 1776 in the “colonies,” the British Empire had completed subjugation, until a number of its subjects congealed into invincible resolve.

        1. George – You want to see what they’re teaching history wise in K-12 these days!?

          https://youtu.be/YC4Qg4IUkvY

          Maybe homeschooling IS a good idea. I will most likely home school my hypothetical future children. That way I can control the situation.

          Socializing your kids? Activities, paid for, after school At home.

  10. It’s like debating the relative merits of two writers for the Hy-Vee Market Shoppers Guide in Dubuque, Iowa. Nobody watches either of these fools.

    1. Attention Hy-Vee Market Shoppers!!!

      Today’s Blue Light Special is…

      A Family-Size Carton of Communist Propaganda at the Price of a Pauper’s Funeral!!!

  11. Turley continues shilling for Fox and Trump, criticizing media who overlook the most-incompetent, unqualified person ever to cheat his way into our White House. As to that dumb, bleached syncophant, first of all, there are NO countries in the situation where the U.S. is: we are setting new daily records for infections. No where else on the globe are children at greater risk than here in the U.S.? Testing shows that about 1/3 of Florida children are positive for coronavirus. WE ARE INDEED AN OUTLIER HERE, but not for the reasons stated in the quote. Did other countries hold school while cases were going up at a record rate every single day? Hell no. So you can’t cite anything from another country to support a blanket rule for shoving children back into schools at this point. In fact, some states aren’t even going to require wearing masks or social distancing.

    Secondly, so what if fewer children die from coronavirus or aren’t as sick as adults, generally speaking? No one knows what the long-term effects of being infected with coronavirus will be, even for those who are asymptomatic. Some children do require hospitalization, and some do die. Even beginning the statement with “we shouldn’t let science stand in the way” is misleading. SCIENCE does not support a blanket rule for re-opening schools without limitation with a pandemic wildly out of control. Does the JAMA article advocate for pushing children back into school with coronavirus infections setting new records every single day? Hell no. Does any reputable physician recommend this? Hell no. The fake blondie was lying.

    What the dumb tw*t meant to say was: “we shouldn’t let science stand in the way of Trump’s re-election”. That really is what she meant. Science does not support a blanket rule for pretending there is no coronavirus pandemic that sets new daily records. The CDC has made recommendations for rules to minimize the risk, but Trump doesn’t like them. As though a mentally ill narcissist has any qualifications to contradict the recommendations of scientists. That’s what the phrase: “we shouldn’t let science stand in the way” really means.

    The dumb, lying bottle blondie is supposed to be a press secretary, not a campaign shill. We taxpayers pay her salary. She is abusing us by using the White House press room for campaigning. In fact, the Trump “administration” violates the Logan Act every single day by campaigning at the White House, and by dumb, bleached Ivanka doing a campaign ad for Goya. Just yesterday, the fat slob stood at a White House door and told lie after lie about Joe Biden. Why not address that, Turley instead of once again looking for a reason to criticize the non-Trump media?

    One last point: Turley seems to try add fodder to Fox News/Trump narrative that mainstream media are “biased’ against Trump. Based on what? This poor excuse for a human is outrageously incompetent, unqualified and criminally cheated his way into the White House solely for the power and glory. He thumbs his nose at the constitutional oversight obligation of Congress. He ignores subpoenas. He pardons criminals. He has severely bungled the coronavirus pandemic. He has singlehandedly destroyed the successful economy created by Barak Obama from the worst economic recession since the Great Depression (Trump has beaten that with the current economy). He has singlehandedly destroyed the trust America has built up with other countries over decades. He lies every single day. He is no role model. He cages young children. He is a rabid racist and xenophobe. These are not opinions. They are facts. Saying so is not being biased. What is biased is ignoring the damage this mental patient is doing to our country every single day.

    1. Natch the quality of your dreck has gone from bad to worse. This “night soil” is not even fit for use as fertilizer.

      1. I think she has a set of macros which contain her ‘thoughts’ and just runs the macros more or less at random each post.

      2. Kurtz, why bother? Natacha writes opinions chock full of meat you should be able to challenge. Your weak personal one liners is in mespo and absurd territory for comment.

        1. No, YOU write comments worth reading, and Bug/Hellvis, & sometimes Seth, and she does not.

          Sorry, no “participation trophies” are available for her endless strings of insults. The remarks are not serious.

        2. Natacha writes opinions chock full of meat

          I guess they told you to try blatant lying.

      1. So, JoAnn, the fact that you refer to someone who cheated to get into the White House, who is mentally and ethically unfit to serve, who has violated every value and standard America stands for, who has trashed the successful economy inherited from Barak Obama, and who, due to his incompetence in handling a pandemic, has cost thousands of Americans their lives, as “President’, means you will be voting for this fraud.

        1. One other thing: I guess all of the deaths and economic damage aren’t enough, and you are willing to test the limits of just how bad things can get.

          1. Let me get this straight, Natacha.

            You’re actually blaming Trump for the deaths and economic damage caused by a cold virus that originated in China?

            Please elaborate.

            I look forward to your answer.

          2. The economic damage was caused by the shutdowns.

            I think you can blame pretty much every politician in the country for that – including Trump.

            The deaths are cause by the virus. There is no cure, onlyh recently is there anything even close to effective treatment – and the one treatment that would have done a little bit of good you left wing nuts pi$$ed over.

            If you want to blame a politician for deaths – that would be the governors that sent recovering covid patients into nursing homes.

            I would love to blame Blue state govenors – NYC STILL has 5 times the per capita death rate of anywhere else.

            But unfortunately while Blue governors ARE responsible for the economic carnage in their states, infections and deaths are driven by latitude and demographics – not politics or policy choices.

            But if you want to pretend otherwise – then fine – blue state governors are murderers.

        2. Natacha – it could all be worse. Hillary could have won the Electoral College. BTW, Trump did not cheat, that is just a flat out lie.

          1. Of course he cheated Paul – he won. Lefites do not beleive they can lose unless others cheat more than they do.

        3. “So, JoAnn, the fact that you refer to someone who cheated to get into the White House”
          If you defame someone – you are obligated to prove the truth of your claim.

          Trump won the election following the Rules. Are you still selling the collusion delusion ? From recently released notes even Strzok found that no one in the Trump campaign had contact with actual russians.

          “who is mentally and ethically unfit to serve”
          Again – because you say so ?

          “who has violated every value and standard America stands for”
          No he has violated the faux values of left wing nuts.

          Regardless how exactly does someone who beleives that america is irreedmably evil and that our values are corrupt, speak with a straight face about “american values” ?

          You do know what hypocracy and contradiction are.

          “who has trashed the successful economy inherited from Barak Obama”
          According to Trading Economics even after 1Q2020 and the first economic impact of C19 The Trump economy is STILL outperforming the Obama economy.

          “who, due to his incompetence in handling a pandemic”
          What nation has demonstrated competence ?
          Belgium, UK, Italy, Spain, Sweden, France, Chile all have higher deaths per million people. And the US relative death rate is dropping.
          the EU on the whole has done no better than the US

          So by what objective standard has Trump demonstrated incompetence ? “I say so” is not a standard.

          “has cost thousands of Americans their lives”
          Again not supported by the facts. The only evidence of a government policy failure costing lives is that of Blue state govenors who have pushed C19 into nursing homes.

      2. JB sends the poison dart flying through the air of sarcasm, striking the victim just beside the jugular. Silencing the mythomane. B.

    2. So the virus behaves differently in the US than elsewhere in the world ?

      Testing positive is meaningless. 95% of those who test positive are asymptomatic, and if asymptomatic spread is possible it is very small. The majority of asymptomatic cases are in younger people.

      The SCIENCE is that if you are under 20 this is 5 times LESS of a threat than the flu.
      This left wing nut nonsense of closing the schools down was Stupid in the spring – and there was good evidence of that then. Today it is complete idiocy – it is left win religion NOT SCIENCE.

      The US death rate after a very small increase from very low levels is now flat. There are many possible explanations for the difference between the number of new cases and the death rates. None of those are reasons to be concerned.

        1. i have, but how is that relevant ?

          I do not beleive einstein ever traveled faster than the speed of light

          Do you have an argument that is not a fallacy

          1. If you’ve worked in an elementary school you’d know that schools are basically germ incubators and the single best disease vector location in any town is a local school.

            Not an argument unto itself, just the common sense that your argument is lacking.

              1. Love the citation. And the flat earth sensibility. But hey, you just keep being you, Big Mess.

            1. “If you’ve worked in an elementary school you’d know that schools are basically germ incubators and the single best disease vector location in any town is a local school.”

              Yup, still does not change anything – schools have always been germ incubators. Nothing new.

              If C19 was actually like the flu – we should open up – just as we do for the flu.

              But it is NOT, the evidence is that it is less severe and less contagious for school kids.

              “Not an argument unto itself”
              That is correct – it is not an argument – if it were we would never have had public schools.

              “just the common sense that your argument is lacking.”
              Odd definition of common sense.

              If that was common sense – why are schools EVER open ?

      1. John is not specific about what he means is “less of a threat”, but the common flu is not as contagious as covid, does not take 2-3 weeks of excrutiatingly unpleasant symptoms for many of those who are symptomatic, nor are there recorded instances of permanent damage to the lungs, heart, and brain of sufferers, nor is the threat to the life or health of elderly or compromised relatives or acquaintenances of the common flu sufferers in the same league as with covid.

        Other than that ……..

        We should keep in mind that John has also claimed to know more about climate change than the American Association of Science, The National Academy of Science, and 98% of climate scientists, that he and Trump know more about hurricane tracking than NOAA, and more about prescribing medicines than the CDC and any other doctors or health associations who disagree with them – act accordingly.

        “Scripps Research Institute

        Asymptomatic infections may have played a significant role in the early and ongoing spread of COVID-19 and highlight the need for expansive testing and contact tracing to mitigate the pandemic.

        ….The authors also conclude that the absence of symptoms may not imply an absence of harm. CT scans conducted on 54 percent of 76 asymptomatic individuals on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, appear to show significant subclinical lung abnormalities raising the possibility of SARS-CoV-2 infection impacting lung function that might not be immediately apparent. The scientists say further research is needed to confirm the potential significance of this finding.

        The authors also acknowledge that the lack of longitudinal data makes distinguishing between asymptomatic and presymptomatic individuals difficult. An asymptomatic individual is someone who is infected with SARS-CoV-2, but never develops symptoms of COVID-19, while a presymptomatic person is similarly infected, but will eventually develop symptoms. Longitudinal testing, which refers to repeated testing of individuals over time, would help differentiate between the two.

        “Our estimate of 40 to 45 percent asymptomatic means that, if you’re unlucky enough to get infected, the probability is almost a flip of a coin on whether you’re going to have symptoms. So to protect others, we think that wearing a mask makes a lot of sense,” Oran concludes.

        https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200612172208.htm

        1. “we think that wearing a mask makes a lot of sense,” Oran concludes.”

          Yet Fauci clearly said on 60 Minutes that wearing a mask makes no sense, BTB.

          “Dr. Fauci said people should not be wearing masks” 60 Minutes March 2020

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLNBw7XCM4Q

          So what’s your take on that, BTB?

          If you don’t smell a Rat, you’re not very bright.

          1. Rhodes, that was 3.5 months ago when PPEs were in very short supply and deemed more essential for health workers.

            Any other questions?

        2. “John is not specific about what he means is “less of a threat”, ”
          Irrelevant – it is still true.

          “the common flu is not as contagious as covid,”
          correct, but not relevant.

          “does not take 2-3 weeks of excrutiatingly unpleasant symptoms for many of those who are symptomatic,”
          For SOME who are symptomatic. Like the Flu C19 severity varies. It has a different age/severity curve.

          “nor are there recorded instances of permanent damage to the lungs, heart, and brain of sufferers”
          Really ? The Flu kills people. Some of those it does not kill it leaves in very bad shape.

          “nor is the threat to the life or health of elderly or compromised relatives or acquaintenances of the common flu sufferers in the same league as with covid.”

          I beleive even the Wapo data on C19 shows that for those over 75 the death rates are similar to the Flu
          Death rates for the Flu are very high for very old people.

          The Bit threat of C19 is to people from 45-65 who have a death rate much higher than the Flu – though lower than those who are older.
          Again from data published by Wapo.

          “We should keep in mind that John has also claimed to know more about climate change than the American Association of Science, The National Academy of Science, and 98% of climate scientists, that he and Trump know more about hurricane tracking than NOAA, and more about prescribing medicines than the CDC and any other doctors or health associations who disagree with them – act accordingly.”

          False,
          What I have claimed is that warmist predictions are FALSE.
          That is a tautologically true statement.
          I do not need to know a thing about Climate Science to know that what was predicted has not occured.

          You seem to be under the delusion that highly educated people never make mistakes. In fact they make mistakes quite frequently.
          Further because they are trusted based on their expertise they tend to make far worse mistakes.

          If there are no rewards of losses to you as a consequence of your opinion, your opinion has no value.
          Most experts today have little more risk that random comenters on blogs.
          As we come to grasp the failure of GCM’s it is unlikely that warmists will suffer any negative consequences – in fact they will likely get even more money to study why they are wrong. While if those of us wh have been skeptical prove wrong – the climate nazi’s have already declared they are locking us up.

          Put simply, being a CAGW skeptic comes at greater risk to reputation – or worse, and therefore higher incentive to be correct and careful.

          1. “John is not specific about what he means is “less of a threat”, ”
            Irrelevant – it is still true.

            Relevant to a discussion of his claim, which admittedly is not important.

            “the common flu is not as contagious as covid,”
            correct, but not relevant.

            Relevant to the relative threat, which is his what his claim is about.

            “does not take 2-3 weeks of excrutiatingly unpleasant symptoms for many of those who are symptomatic,”
            For SOME who are symptomatic. Like the Flu C19 severity varies. It has a different age/severity curve.

            Yes, for some who are symptomatic – actually many and absolutely true for 2 people I know personally who had/have it – and exceedingly rare for the common flu.

            “nor are there recorded instances of permanent damage to the lungs, heart, and brain of sufferers”
            Really ? The Flu kills people. Some of those it does not kill it leaves in very bad shape.

            BS. Link please

            “nor is the threat to the life or health of elderly or compromised relatives or acquaintenances of the common flu sufferers in the same league as with covid.”

            I beleive even the Wapo data on C19 shows that for those over 75 the death rates are similar to the Flu
            Death rates for the Flu are very high for very old people.

            The Bit threat of C19 is to people from 45-65 who have a death rate much higher than the Flu – though lower than those who are older.
            Again from data published by Wapo.

            “Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19, but at present, it is thought to be substantially higher than that of most strains of the flu.”
            https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu

            “We should keep in mind that John has also claimed to know more about climate change than the American Association of Science, The National Academy of Science, and 98% of climate scientists, that he and Trump know more about hurricane tracking than NOAA, and more about prescribing medicines than the CDC and any other doctors or health associations who disagree with them – act accordingly.”

            False,
            What I have claimed is that warmist predictions are FALSE.
            That is a tautologically true statement.
            I do not need to know a thing about Climate Science to know that what was predicted has not occured.

            You seem to be under the delusion that highly educated people never make mistakes. In fact they make mistakes quite frequently.

            Indeed, and thanks for the example.

            Carry on.

            1. “Relevant to a discussion of his claim, which admittedly is not important.”
              Wrong, and so why do you keep harping.

              “Relevant to the relative threat, which is his what his claim is about.”
              That R0 value only effects the scale of the curves – not the shape of them.

              Higher R0 values are harder to beat, but the behavior is otherwise the same.

              “Yes, for some who are symptomatic – actually many and absolutely true for 2 people I know personally who had/have it – and exceedingly rare for the common flu.”
              Given the evidence we have from accross the world – you you know 2 people who have had it – you probably know 100.
              They just do not know they were infected and neither do you.

              “Really ? The Flu kills people. Some of those it does not kill it leaves in very bad shape.”
              BS. Link please

              Google is your friend.
              The flu can cause hearing loss.
              Guillain-Barre Syndrome
              Myocarditis
              Reye Syndrome
              Encephalitis or Meningitis

              as well as other complications.

              “Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19, but at present, it is thought to be substantially higher than that of most strains of the flu.”

              The current CDC estimate is between the same as the flu and double the flu – that is OVERALL – for some age groups it is 11 times lower, and for others it is 5 times higher.

              The mortality rate comes down as the infection rate is revised upwards. We are pretty sure we are off by atleast a factor of 10 on the infection rate – and possibly as much as 20.

        3. “Scripps Research Institute

          Asymptomatic infections may have played a significant role in the early and ongoing spread of COVID-19 and highlight the need for expansive testing and contact tracing to mitigate the pandemic.”

          Numerous other sources have disagreed. It is still unclear whether there is any asymptomatic transmission at all.

          Nor precisely what asymptomatic means.

          “The authors also conclude that the absence of symptoms may not imply an absence of harm.”

          May is not a conclusion – it is a hypothesis/

          “CT scans conducted on 54 percent of 76 asymptomatic individuals on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, appear to show significant subclinical lung abnormalities raising the possibility of SARS-CoV-2 infection impacting lung function that might not be immediately apparent. The scientists say further research is needed to confirm the potential significance of this finding.”
          I would need alot more information to assess this. What was the definition of asymptomatic ? What is a “subclinical” lung abnormality ?
          What is the frequency of such abnormalities in the general population ? What is the severity of that abnormality ? Does the abnormality persist ?

          None of these are answered by your cite.

          “The authors also acknowledge that the lack of longitudinal data makes distinguishing between asymptomatic and presymptomatic individuals difficult.”
          Lack of data is no excuse today. This is likely the most thoroughly studied and documented disease in this short duration ever.

          “An asymptomatic individual is someone who is infected with SARS-CoV-2, but never develops symptoms of COVID-19,”
          And contra your claims we KNOW at this point that is 90-95% of all C19 infections. We KNOW from data across the world that somehere between 9:10 and 19:20 people who show antibodies never had noticeable symptoms. These are no “presymptomatic – not unless you believe the gestation time can be months.

          “while a presymptomatic person is similarly infected, but will eventually develop symptoms.”
          How many cases have developed symptoms more than 14 days after exposure ? I do not beleive at this time there is a single known case.
          The gestation period is 4-10 days – mostly shorter rather than longer.
          Absent data for gestations longer than 14 days this whole argument is speculation with no data to support it.

          “Longitudinal testing, which refers to repeated testing of individuals over time, would help differentiate between the two.”
          So would the fact that there are large numbers of people who test positive for antibodies but have never had symptoms.

          Unless you beleive people are lying about their symptoms – which is a problem you can not fix, Longitudanal testing is merely going to SLIGHTLY improve the quality of your data. It is not going to alter conclusions.

          “Our estimate of 40 to 45 percent asymptomatic means that, if you’re unlucky enough to get infected, the probability is almost a flip of a coin on whether you’re going to have symptoms. So to protect others, we think that wearing a mask makes a lot of sense,” Oran concludes.”

          The actual data – from CA, from NY, from Iceland, From FL, from several places in Europe is 90-95% asymptomatic – not 40-45.

          Even the CDC claims that between 25 and 54M americans have been infected so far.

          If you wish to use a different number – fine – provide sources.

      2. John Say,
        “So the virus behaves differently in the US than elsewhere in the world ?”

        Yes and no. The virus does not behave differently, but what it has to work in (people) is different. We have children with hypertension, type II diabetes, and NAFLD. 50% of kids in poverty are overweight or obese. We have outsized percentages of people with all sorts of chronic diseases, not to mention the 2/3 of our population that is overweight or obese.

        The Standard American Diet is an existential threat to our nation. Ask the military. They are worried.

        1. My question/argument/rebutal was specific to different government units/polices.

          We know that it behaves different based on age and race and various other demographic factors.

          My point – which is obvious on inspection, and has been verified by studies is that no government policy has democrated empiracally that it works

    3. “No One Knows”

      So ? Covid19 is a corona virus – like about 40% of colds. there are no long terms effects of colds.

      In fact there is some indication that a prior cold infection MIGHT confer some immunity to C19.

      Kids who got the flu last year – could develop emphazema in the future. But there is no reason to expect that. There is no reason to expect that those who have C19 and recover without immediate harm will magically develop problems in the future

      Regardless, there are only 3 ways to end this:

      Vaccines
      Cure
      or infection to the level of herd immunity.

      There is not some other magical alternative.

      Vaccines have risks too, over 500 people were paralyzed by the Swine Flu vaccine. But 10’s of thousands of deaths were avoided.

    4. Masks and social distancing “flatten the curve” – they are delaying tactics. They will not prevent you from getting C19 only a vaccine can do that. But they will delay getting it if used religiously and properly – and few of us do.

      Even studies in hospitals with far better PPE than used by individuals found that all medical personal will eventually get infected.

      1. John Say,
        “They will not prevent you from getting C19 only a vaccine can do that.”

        I disagree. There are plenty of people who have been exposed to it yet have mild or no symptoms. Having a strong immune system can prevent C19, as well. What does your immune system need in order to be strong? Plenty of vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, good sleep, etc.

        1. “There are plenty of people who have been exposed to it yet have mild or no symptoms. Having a strong immune system can prevent C19, as well. What does your immune system need in order to be strong? Plenty of vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, good sleep, etc.”

          Do not disagree with any of that.

          But none of it contradicts what I have said.

          BTW herd immunity is not acheived when 80% of people have been infected, but when 80% of people are immune.
          That immunity can come from getting the disease, It also can come from high natural immunity.

            1. Mostly a good arcticle. But it has one GLARING flaw.

              It ignores the possibility of natural immunity or natural resistance.

              We know that exists. The flu comes round every year, some people get it, some people get vaccinated. But most people are neither vaccinated nor get the flu.

              Why is that ? Magic ?

              Why does the flu not infect every single unvacinated person – or 94% of them – or 80% or even 50% ?

              Because very large portions of the population are either already immune or highly resistant.

              Even the 1918 Flu only infected about 25% of the country – there was no vaccine. In fact Flu vaccines are relatively modern. There has been no flu vaccine for most of my life. The 67 Flu was about as contageous and about as fatal as Covid – and yet we did nothing.

              The 1918 Flu was similarly contageous and MORE fatal – worse still the 1918 flu killed young and healthy people – the stronger your immune system was the more likely you were to die.

              Anyway, whether you like it or not – in the real world herd immunity appears at somewhere above an infection rate of 20%. Absolutely you need 80% immunity or above to reach it, but the bulk of that is made of people who are naturally resistant for any of a number of possible reasons.

              We already know from Cruise ships and other petri dish natural experiments that about 70% of people do not get C19 even under optimal conditions.

              But hey – why should we presume that reality would not change – just because we want lots of people to die.

          1. John Say,
            You noted that only a vaccine can prevent C19. That’s what I was addressing.

            We are in agreement overall. Clarifying that natural immunity is important is a good thing to emphasize in any case.

            1. +10

              A huge issue here is that much of the panic and hype over C19 presumes that it is some how radically different.
              That a magical disease that will infact 100% of the population and kill 5% has magically appeared.

              To my knowledge that has never happened.

              The most deadly viral pandemic was the 1918 Flu – that infected a little over 25% of the population of the world, there was not a vaccine and would not be one for another lifetime.

              40% of all colds are Corona Viruses. These do not infect 100% of the population either.

              There is even some evidence that if you had some CoronaVirus based cold recently you may be immune to C19 – just as cowpox gives you immunity to small pox.

              If the world was so fragile that C19 would kill us all – there would be no life on the planet

              The evidence thus far is that C19 is not all that unusual – it has a death and infection rate very similar to the 1967 flu and not even close to the 1918 Flu. Something this bad occurs approx. every 50 years, if it not even a once in a lifetime disease.

      2. Masks and distancing can prevent one for contracting covid-19.

        A vaccine and herd immunity are in question as there is some recent evidence that the immunity enjoyed by those who have contracted covid-19 may be short lived – 3-4 months. That is not uncommon with viruses.

        1. Based on a discussion I had with a professor of biology this afternoon, herd immunity is in question, but vaccines are ultimately not. The immunity produced by those two causes involve different physical results – over my head – and typically a well designed vaccine will last 4-5 years and be effective for over 99% of the population.

          1. “Based on a discussion I had with a professor of biology this afternoon, herd immunity is in question, but vaccines are ultimately not. The immunity produced by those two causes involve different physical results – over my head – and typically a well designed vaccine will last 4-5 years and be effective for over 99% of the population.”

            Either your professor needs re=educated or you are inaccurately conveying their information.

            Herd immunity is about MATH not biology. If a sufficient percent of the population has immunity – acheived any number of ways,
            then the spread of the virus slows and then stops.

            Vaccines are ONE way to immunity.
            Catching the disease is another.
            But for pretty much all diseases some people are naturally immune and a larger number are highly resistant.

            The mechanism for immunity is IRRELEVANT – herd immunity is about MATH – the failure of the virus to be able to spread.

            Vaccines do NOT inherently create immunity in everyone – often they create resistance rather than immunity – i.e. you need far higher exposure to catch the disease.

            Regardless immunity and resistance are variable. A longer exposure to a person with a high enough viral load will overcome resistance in many people.

            The period of “immunity” confered by a vaccine is variable. SmallPox vaccines are good for about 65years of immunity. Chicken pox about 50.

            The speculation is that C19 immunity is much more shortlived.

            There are more complexities than even this. But they do not matter – herd immunity is arrived at when the spread rate reduces to below 1 because the virus can not find a host that it can infect.

            With specific respect to C19 herd immunity – every country/state that has dropped to zero new cases for 14 days, or is showing a declining number of cases using normalize measures has either reached herd immunity or is approaching it

            If that were not the case – there would be multiple waves.

            Many countries have seen C19 drop to zero or near zero – they have all acheived her immunity.

            If that was not so they would spike again the moment anyone arrived from outside and brought the infection back in.

        2. “Masks and distancing can prevent one for contracting covid-19.”
          Only sort of.

          They are merely a delaying tactic. As noted even among healthcare workers with far better PPE – given enough exposure ALL will eventually contract the disease. This is not even unique to C19.

          PPE and social distancing reduce your odds of getting C19 FOR EACH EXPOSURE.

          If the disease does not stop until 80% have immunity one way or the other – then all masks and SD do is delay the time to reach that point.
          Those who most religiously use SD and masks will get to be part of the 20% who never get the disease. The rest of us will get infected.

          It is near certain that “herd immunity” is not acheived at some fixed constant, but varies based on demographics and latitude.

          “A vaccine and herd immunity are in question as there is some recent evidence that the immunity enjoyed by those who have contracted covid-19 may be short lived – 3-4 months. That is not uncommon with viruses.”

          Irrelevant and a misuse of terms – herd immunity merely requires that sufficient portion of the population is immune or highly resistant at a given moment. If that moment last long enough the virus will be exterminated.

          Separately – short lived immunity is not “common” – we do not try to vaccinate against colds – because there are several hundred of them, and the risks are too low. We have no idea how long immunity from colds actually lasts.

          Regardless, if herd immunity is not acheivable and sustainable long enough C19 will be with us forever, and masks etc will be completely useless, Even if a mask were 99.9% effective – and they are not even close you would get C19 after 1000 exposures.

          Whether you like it or not we MUST figure out how to return to some form of normal – our survival depends on it.

          1. “They are merely a delaying tactic.”
            Until November, at least.

            There was an interesting Fraggle Rock character named Convincing John who could convince anybody of anything. Persuasion and propaganda are mighty tools to wield; how often for undemocratic ends?
            https://youtu.be/tbcjE1UObyc

    5. Does any reputable Doctor recomend this ? Actually quite a large number do.
      McEnany cited an extremely reputable one.

      Something is not magically true just because you say it.

      Reconnect with reality.

      1. Give me the citation to the actual study. What dumb blondie was trying to say is that children don’t get infected at the same rate as adults and fewer of them die, but so what? Does any doctor recommend returning to life before coronavirus in the face of record-setting daily increases in infections? if so, why did we close schools in the first place?

        1. Natacha – I think “dumb blonde” graduated from Harvard Law. Where did you graduate from? And where are those scores you owe me?

          1. McEnnay is a georgetown Grad and a Harvard Law grad – in the top 1% of her class.

            She is about as far from a “dumb blond” as you can get.

        2. If you actually go find the entirety of what she said – and it is not that long, the citation is their.

          Regardless, presumably you are an adult who has managed to get through HS and are capable of using google.

          I do not off the top of my head know the specific study McEnany was refering to – because there are so many with similar conclusions.

          Regardless, the lieft is ful of religious furvor regarding C19 – not science.

          Even Acosta was forced to walk back the Tweet that you are mirroring, and even Tapper in a backhanded way completely rejected it.

          If you can not even get CNN behind you you are definitely off i left wingnut land.

          Regardless, you continue to sell nonsense like the collusion delusion.

          NO ONE owes you cites. I will be happy to provide you cites for any claims I make – if you will publicly apologize when they prove correct.

          I am fully prepared to appoligize when I err. But that does not happen much, because I make sure of the facts before i make my comments.

          It is not hard to be right 100% of the time – all it requires is not writing something before checking the facts.

        3. The fact that this is much less serious if you are under 20 can be confirmed on WaPo.

          Or pretty much everywhere. It has been well known since before this arrived at the US that C19 has ahugely different impact based on age.

          If you are not aware of that already – you should not be commenting on C19

      2. McEnany cited the Stanford doc who claimed the recent outbreak across the south was due to protests.

        Nuff said.

              1. His credentials are substantially better than “a stanford doctor”
                I beleive he was a rhoads scholar, regardless he has many awards.

          1. “Spikes in Texas, Florida and Arizona don’t essentially line up with reopening but with Mexico’s surge and the recent protests that have gripped the U.S., Atlas said.”

            I think Atlas is incorrect – there are other factors – such as increased testing.

            What is NOT true is there is any correlation to reopening.
            There is not a pattern that fits states that have reopened.

        1. “Scott W. Atlas is an American physician and health care policy expert.”

          With lots of awards and excellent credentials.

          A kid going to school is far more likely to die on the bus ride than from C19

          This is the results of the ACTUAL SCIENCE.

          It is the conclusion of pretty much all scientific and medical bodies accross the world.

          As you like to say it is the “concensus”.

          All you are doing by fighting this is demonstrating that you are driven either by unfounded fear or politics.

          Accept that you are wrong and move on.

          https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/07/14/dr_scott_atlas_slams_hysteria_over_reopening_schools_i_feel_like_im_living_in_a_kafka_novel.html

    6. Do you have any evidence that any goverment policy anywhere in the world has proven effective ?

      There are a number of factors that effect the likelyhood that you will get infected or die – none of these are government polices.

      The CDC can tell you how to delay the possibility that you get infected.

      There is no CDC recomendation that will prevent infection absent a vaccine of herd immunity.

      If your risk of death is high – you should religiously follow CDC recomandations in the hope that you are among the portion of us protected by heard immunity.

      If your risk of death is low – you are actually increasing the risk to others by following the CDC guidelines.

      BTW that is called SCIENCE

      1. See almost the entire rest of the world John.

        As I noted above, herd immunity is in question due to recent evidence that immunity among those who have contracted covid is short lived.

        1. “See almost the entire rest of the world John.”

          I have, and I explicitly listed a long list of countries that have done worse – all in europe, The EU as a whole is worse than the US.
          These are FACTS BTB.

          They are well documented.
          The US death rate is 433/1M that is lower than the EU and much lower that the UK, France, Belgium, ….

          “As I noted above, herd immunity is in question due to recent evidence that immunity among those who have contracted covid is short lived.”

          You keep repeating this as it it is relevant.

          There is no policy that works PERIOD

          Eliminating C19 is possible and likely even if immunity lasts only a few months – and it is near certain it last longer than that.

          Conversely if we can not eliminate C19 via herd immunity – it will be with us forever – or until there is a cure.

          You seem to think that failure to acheive herd immunity changes policy – it does not.
          What does not work – doesn’t work.

          BTW we actually know that herd immunity is acheivable – C19 is gone from many countries, and it has not come back.

          Italy has about 230 new cases a day right now, down from a peak of 7000.

          Are you saying they acheived that by magic ?

          They certainly did not by policy.

    7. “He has singlehandedly destroyed the successful economy created by Barak Obama”

      Natacha, it is Barack, not “Barak”.

      Please elaborate in detail how the economy was made “successful” by Obama?

      This is your chance to show that you actually know something worth knowing.

      Or it’s your chance to fail miserably.

      Have at it.

      1. Sure, I will Rhodes. Obama ignored the GOP call for “austerity” ( a supposed principle they forget about whenever they hold the WH but reclaim when the Democrats do) and passed the stimulus bill (credited by most economists and the CBO with helping juice the economy back, expanded food stamps and unemployment benefits and financed GM staying open (which saved the economy of the upper mid-west). Since the crash was a worldwide event, we can compare how we did against other developed nations and see clearly that the “austerity” practicing countries like the UK stayed in their recession for many years while we and Germany recovered at about the same rate, or the best rate in the developed world.

        1. I’d add that in the stimulus, even though the repubs like to harp about Solyndra, overall loan guarantee money was very successful at subsidizing pv energy into a decent price range. IOW it put the solar industry into play in an affordable way. Even before the abomination of the Trump presidency the Repubs and fossil fuel lobby have dedicated to ruining that set of conditions, and Trump has tried everything he could to ruin the solar market, but Obama’s effort pushed the solar industry over the line in a way that, truthfully, should’ve happened in the ’70’s in the States.

          That factoid is often overlooked about the Obama administration, and it’s one of the best achievements of his presidency.

          1. And, what the hell, while we’re at it we should talk about how Obama rescued the American car industry. if it went under things would’ve looked like…., well, what they do now in the economic wreckage of the Trump administration.

          2. Oh. god help is. Solyandra was a disater. They went bankrupt and no one uses their technology.

            And subsidies are destructive, not constructive. There wa a slowly building solar hot water industry which Cart chose to subsidize. When the subsidies expired the market died and decades later there is very little solar hot water even though small solar hot water arrangement make economic sense in much of the world.

            The bad economics of subsidies are well known.

      2. There is no scientifically objective proof to back up Barak Obama’s system which wasn’t even his

        Barak is arabic for lightning as in ‘destroyer.’ So in Arabic the name fits
        His education derives from Patrice Lumumba University especially the Cycle or circle of repression and is the socialist way of taking over independent governments so far has never worked. It was formulated to replace the Castroite urban and country system and making it useful for urban and city envirionment. see Carlos Marighella. It failed in Puerto Rico Macheteros, Uruguay Tupamaros, Venezuela, and it’s use by the Democratic National Committee as the Crisis method of Cycle of economic repression see Clinton and Obama.

    8. This goes against my lived experience, which means you are making this a toxic and physically unsafe environment.

    9. When you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS.

      You are one loose cannon. Better try whatfinger so you really know the score here.

  12. Turley is using the Trump playbook by pandering to the base to get his clicks in. Rick Wilson was right in his book, everything Trump touches dies, to bad Turley jumped in the swamp with both feet before knowing how deep the swamp and bile was.

    1. You call it a swamp, I call it a marsh, a bayou, a wetland, teeming with life, and the freedom of the forest and the wild things that fly

  13. Ruth Bader Ginsburg with liver cancer return. How long before Democrats say the President can’t nominate a justice near the end of his first term?

    He can, of course.

      1. I’m recalling Wm. Rehnquist was diagnosed with thyroid cancer in Oct. 2004. He wasn’t diagnosed with the conventional sort of thyroid cancer, but with an odd variant you cannot treat and which usually kills people in six months. I can see why he refrained from resigning at the but end of an election campaign, but he should have been out the door just afterward. Instead, he insisted on remaining in office until he died. (He lasted nearly a year, which is unusual with that type of cancer).

    1. My wager would be that it’s a recurrence of pancreatic cancer, now on the liver. One of the bloggers I follow is Dr. Michael Kennedy, a retired surgeon. At the time one of her more recent episodes was reported, he said that he had never seen a case of a simultaneous appearance of multiple tumors in the lung which was not metastatic in character. It’s amazing she’s lasted 11 years with this latent in her system.

        1. Not sure. I think conventional insurance would cover it unless she were getting experimental Hail Marys.

    2. A good time to heavy up on increasing Constitutionalists on the Supreme Court. Yes the President can nominate near the end of a term. No the party’s do not get ‘a turn’. Besides the left is so far to the left I’m not sure their phony taking of the oath of office would count.

      There are two and only two requirements. Nomination by the President and Confirmation by the Senate. One Reason Biden is running for two offices at the same time. Gender, Age, Education, nationality none of them count and neither does House of Representatives. no the Supreme Court itself. Or the Prez can just leave it empty there is no time limit nor for the Senate to do it’s part. Thus five four can easily become five to three.

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