The Seattle City Council is facing something of a dilemma in its popular pledge to cut the police budget by 50 percent. To do so would require firing a significant number of police officers, which is also popular. The problem is that the firing would be done by seniority and many of the less senior officers are black. The solution according to City Council member Lisa Herbold is simple: fire officers based on their race. While that would be the definition of racial discrimination, Herbold clearly believes that it is discrimination for a good cause. The federal courts are likely to disagree. Most notably, Herbold’s call for racial discrimination against white officers would seek to undue the work of Justice Thurgood Marshall who insisted that racial discrimination unlawful and evil regardless of the race you want to disenfranchise or discriminate against.
Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best released a video calling the plan of Herbold and others “completely reckless.” She also sent a letter to Mayor Jenny Durkan warning that dramatic cuts would require the layoff of hundreds of officers. The Police Department also warned that the firings would include many minority officers.
It was only the last risk that concerned Herbold who promptly suggested discriminating on the basis of race:
Herbold insists that this would be perfectly legal despite the prohibitions under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
What concerns me most is not that such calls for racial discrimination are possibly constitutional but that they are so clearly popular.
The EEOC amplifies this point on its website: “It is unlawful to discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race or color in regard to hiring, termination, promotion, compensation, job training, or any other term, condition, or privilege of employment.”
In taking this position, Herbold is opposing one of the best known opinions by Thurgood Marshall. In McDonald v. Santa Fe Trail Transportation Co. (1976), Justice Thurgood Marshall wrote opinions that called for the broad interpretation of Title VII to protect everyone. In McDonald, two white employees were fired after a theft in the business. The two white employees were held jointly and severally liable with a black employee. However, only the white employees were fired. After they sued under Title VII, Marshall wrote for the majority in denouncing such discrimination against white employees, insisted that “racial discrimination in private employment against whites [must be] on the same terms as racial discrimination against nonwhites.” He denounced “the illogic in retaining guilty employees of one color while discharging those of another color.” While Marshall would vigorously support affirmative action (including his dissent in Bakke), he believed that all races were protected from discrimination under federal law.
This of course would be even more egregious since Herbold wants to fire white officers due to their race alone. They would not be accused of any wrongdoing or failure. The problem is their race.
It is notable that is not an action that is part of or in furtherance of a valid affirmative action plans ordered by a court or approved by a federal agency. See United Steelworkers of America v. Weber (1979) and Johnson v. Transportation Agency (1987). In Ricci v. DeStefano (2009), the Supreme Court ruled against the city of New Haven after a group of white firefighters and a hispanic firefighter challenged the refusal to certify the results of promotion exams in order to promote black firefighters who performed less well. The Court held that the City’s refusal to certify the test was unlawful discrimination under Title VII. If found that “race-based action like the City’s in this case is impermissible under Title VII unless the employer can demonstrate a strong basis in evidence that, had it not taken the action, it would have been liable under the disparate-impact statute.”
Herbold would not only refuse to promote on the basis of race but would fire officers on that basis. No test. Just a pure racially discriminatory program of terminations. Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1 (2007), Chief Justice John Roberts once declared “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” That is clearly not the plan of Herbold and any of her colleagues who want to fire officers based on their race.
Smash the fitlhy tribe swill for the evil they have done to this world! They are the sewage providing the funding and planning for this terrorism. SMASH THEM!!!
Keep in mind these are the same idiots who have ruined the city over the past 10 years. Raising property taxes to the point retired folk who own their home have to sell because they cant afford the tax, telling the police to not make arrest of the trouble makers that are scaring away tourist and locals. People living in tents because they brought business in but didnt increase housing availability to meet the demand(easing building permit restrictions etc) forcing people with jobs to live in tents while waiting for openings…almost every local I knew has left.
Meanwhile, in Portland:
“Militarized Federal Agents from a patchwork of outside agencies have begun policing Portland (in rented minivans) without the explicit approval of the mayor, the state, or local municipalities. This is what that looks like in practice: [video in the link] … For folks asking ‘who are these guys?’: Four federal law enforcement agencies including U.S. Marshals, Federal Protective Service, Customs & Border Protection & Homeland Security Investigations have rotated officers through Portland since early July. … It is worth noting that these are the same unaccountable masked officers, who last week while ‘defending the courthouse’ shot a projectile at Donovan Labella, a peaceful protester holding a speaker above his head, fracturing his skull & nearly killing him. [more video] … It’s also worth noting that Senator @RonWyden is among the many local officials who have asked them to leave. [copy of congressional letter attached] … UPDATE: For folks asking for additional info, I would highly recommend reading @conradjwilson and @_jlevinson impeccable reporting on these dangerously irregular federal detentions for Oregon Public Broadcasting … [link to additional reporting]”
https://twitter.com/sparrowmedia/status/1283436911307218948
But yeah, let’s focus on a silly Seattle council member whose proposal has no hope of being enacted and ignore the dangerous tactics actually being enacted by the federal government in Portland. /s
Committ – let'[s concentrate on the fact that the Federal Courthouse in Portland has been under attack for 48 straight days/nights. The Portland mayor and police are doing nothing to help. Portland is going to be lucky if it doesn’t have the 101 Airborne clean the city for them.
You fantasize about the U.S. military bombing a U.S. City?
That’s sick and anti-American.
The federal government has no business sending UNIDENTIFIED federal law enforcement to a U.S. city. They have no badge #s, they’re driving rental vehicles, … This resembles what occurred under Pincochet’s military dictatorship in Chile, and all patriotic Americans should speak out against it.
Committ – the President takes an oath to keep a republican form of government in all the states. Are you such an idiot that you think federal forces are going to fly in transport instead of just going to rent-a-wreck? Are they killing anyone? In fact, in one incident that was filmed, they did not arrest the woman that interfered with them. You are over-reacting.
btw, the 101 Airborne are para-troopers, you twit.
Thanks for the correction re: the 101st Airborne, my mistake: instead of fantasizing about the U.S. military bombing a U.S. city, you fantasize about the U.S. military using an Air Assault division on a U.S. city.
It’s still sick and anti-American, “twit.”
And “Are you such an idiot that you think federal forces” don’t already have transport in Oregon? And oh look, you totally ignore the fact that they’re trying to cover up their identities by not wearing badges.
“Are they killing anyone?”
Yeah, that’s all that matters. I’m sure that you don’t complain about anyone as long as they’re not killing anyone, right? /s
You are under-reacting.
Committ – the first use of federal troops against revolutionaries was in 1791 when George Washington led federal troops (militia who had been federalized) against the Whiskey Rebellion. This is not new. Federal troops were used during the Civil Rights era.
If you are a fan of Antifa and BLM, you should be more concerned that the feds are black bagging their captures. Who knows where they are going to end up? Cuba?
You and I differ in many ways. One of those is that when I’m wrong about something, I admit it, like I did above with the 101st Airborne. You don’t. Instead, you ignore it, and/or you move the goalposts, and/or you introduce false analogies, …
Everyone makes mistakes. Honest people admit them, and dishonest people don’t. Choose to admit when you’re wrong. Choose to admit that it would be anti-American to have the U.S. Air Force descend on a U.S. city. Deal honestly with the difference between U.S. Marshals and the Air Force.
This is not analogous to the Whiskey Rebellion; this is a local and mostly peaceful protest in one part of one city, whereas the Whiskey Rebellion was a protest against the *federal* government, was violent, was not limited to one location or even one state, and involved Congress passing the Militia Act of 1792. This also is not analogous to uses of federal troops during the Civil Rights era (e.g., after bombings in Birmingham, after the Ole Miss riot that resulted in two deaths and hundreds injured, in Little Rock, Arkansas, after Gov. Faubus called in the state National Guard to prevent black students from attending school). More to the point, I dare you to link to a single image of the federal troops during the Civil Rights era where they didn’t have badges on. How many times do I have to point out that they’re trying to cover up their identities by not wearing badges?
I doubt I’ll respond again. The exchanges with you are always a waste of time.
The airborne infantry are US Army, not US Air Force. The Air Force is just their ride to where local politicians decide to set up little fiefdoms where they can use hoodlums to inflict terror on law-abiding people. Since we’ve seen the DNC’s tons tons macoutes didn’t greet DHS officers with Seattle hospitality, it may become necessary for Thomas Hobbes’ Leviathan to decisively restore the rule of law in corrupt Seattle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw
My mistake. I should have said Army instead of Air Force, thanks for the correction.
And I’ve been discussing Portland, not Seattle.
As UT Austin law prof. points out, “Federal law enforcement officers are principally tasked with enforcing *federal* law. Like many states, Oregon has specifically authorized federal law enforcement officers to also enforce *state* law. But the authorization comes with important caveats …” (emphasis added)
https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1284162358055763969
Acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf:
“I offered @DHSgov support to help locally address the situation that’s going on in Portland, and their only response was: please pack up and go home. That’s just not going to happen on my watch.” (emphasis added)
https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284081029683257344
As Chris Hayes responded: “we know Republicans will condemn this because they have a principled belief in state’s rights, federalism and local control and all of those concepts aren’t just convenient window dressing for uglier views.”
Republicans often argue that they need assault rifles in case the government ever tries to take away their rights. Do you suggest the protesters start carrying assault rifles to protect the right to protest peacefully? (And no, I’m not talking about violent protesters and looters. The video I posted a link to earlier shows non-violent, non-looting protesters being arrested and shot at, and that’s who I’m talking about.)
Committ – I have not seen pictures so I cannot comment on covering up their identities. I do know that SWAT teams do not wear id badges, since some are actually working undercover elsewhere and are doing this one job because they are available.
I totally reject the rest of your argument as historically and politically invalid.
FFS, my OP linked to a video that shows them.
If you “have not seen pictures,” it’s because you can’t be bothered to look.
FWIW, they’ve since been identified as CBP, not SWAT.
Committ – I get all my notifications in the mail. If you leave a link at the bottom of your comment, I do not get it, it just disappears from my email. However, if someone responds to your email, it will appears if the email is short enough. So, I did not get it.
I have heard the CBP have joined in, they are part of HHS
82d airborne would be better. 82s airborne has a good rep from the past 30 years for patriotism. Real patriotism
But it won’t be necessary. These snatch n grabs will do the trick. If applied with sufficient thoroughness.
We are already into a situation where due process has been thrown out the door. Mostly by the rioters. Oh and the unfair governors like Whitmer who say everybody stay home except BLM rioters who are free to ignore her COVID quarantine edicts. Hypocrite! She;s the lawless one. Ever heard of equal protection, Gretch?
Ok two can play this game. Now they’re going to see what it’s like when the government has its bite at the apple.
Little Rock decided they’d tear the Constitution up, and their government used violent protesters to enforce segregation. President Eisenhower did the right thing. He sent in the Airborne. It’s a very old precedent which goes back to Hobbes’ book Leviathan.- which articulated for the first time that a peaceable civil society depends on the existence of decisive armed forces responsive to national government to put down lawlessness.
As I already pointed out, Little Rock is a false analogy. Gov. Faubus called in the state National Guard to prevent black students from attending school. The federal troops weren’t there to act against protesters but to make sure that the AR state government — Faubus and the state National Guard — didn’t undermine the law.
And once again, a key issue here is that federal LE is trying to cover up their identities by not wearing badges.
What a surprise that you ignore this. /s
LE is covering their badges because of an ongoing, illegal conspiracy, to spread an insurrection, and to harass and intimidate public officials into not doing their jobs
Since antifa has gone to Federal officials’ homes to threaten their families, your surprise that Federal law enforcement officers in a charged situation against a group known to employ terror tactics are not wearing badges or name tapes is disingenuous.
There was nothing “charged” in these arrests. There’s likely to be a DHS Inspector General investigation because these CBP officers arrested people without a warrant and without probable cause. The DHS IG has already opened an investigation of the shooting of Donavan LaBella without cause, which sent LaBella to the hospital with a skull fracture and needing facial reconstruction surgery.
And not only are there calls for an IG investigation, but the Trump Administration is now facing a federal lawsuit about it:
“The Oregon Department of Justice plans to sue several federal agencies for civil rights abuses, and state prosecutors will potentially pursue criminal charges against a federal officer who seriously injured a protester. The federal lawsuit will name the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the U.S. Marshals Service and the Federal Protective Service, three agencies that have had a role in stepped-up force used against protesters since early July. The state plans to file the lawsuit Friday night. According to DOJ spokeswoman Kristina Edmunson, the suit will accuse the agencies of engaging ‘in unlawful law enforcement in violation of the civil rights of Oregon citizens by seizing and detaining them without probable cause.’”
https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-police-portland-doj-lawsuit/
Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum:
“I share the concerns of our state and local leaders – and our Oregon U.S. Senators and certain Congressional representatives – that the current escalation of fear and violence in downtown Portland is being driven by federal law enforcement tactics that are entirely unnecessary and out of character with the Oregon way. These tactics must stop. They not only make it impossible for people to assert their First Amendment rights to protest peacefully. They also create a more volatile situation on our streets. We are today asking the federal court to stop the federal police from secretly stopping and forcibly grabbing Oregonians off our streets, and we are announcing a state criminal investigation, with the Multnomah County District Attorney, into the incident resulting in serious injuries to a peaceful protester — apparently committed by a federal police officer in downtown Portland last week. …”
https://www.doj.state.or.us/media-home/news-media-releases/attorney-general-rosenblum-files-lawsuit-against-u-s-homeland-security-announces-criminal-investigation/
Maybe you don’t care about unidentified federal officers essentially kidnapping people without probable cause, shooting people without cause, making the situation more volatile rather than less so, …, but I do.
You fantasize about the U.S. military bombing a U.S. City?
LOL! The 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) provides our Nation an unmatched expeditionary Air Assault capability to conduct forcible entry and other worldwide unified land operations in support of combatant commanders.
https://www.army.mil/101stairborne#org-about
The federal government has no business sending UNIDENTIFIED federal law enforcement to a U.S. city.
What part of Federal do you not understand is the federal government’s responsibility? Additionally, you’ve admitted they are federal, so they are not UNIDENTIFIED. Perhaps the feds should treat these anarchists as enemy combatants until the time they identify themselves by name.
https://katu.com/news/local/gallery/photos-downtown-portland-damage-after-3-nights-of-protests#photo-15
“you’ve admitted they are federal, so they are not UNIDENTIFIED.”
Bullsh*t.
They’re not wearing badges that identify each person individually.
I think you smart enough to understand what it means for an individual to be identifiable or not.
Or are you now going to advocate that police stop wearing badges?
Maybe you get off on law enforcement acting with impunity, but I don’t.
I think it’s important for us to know which U.S. Marshal shot an impact munition at the head of a peaceful protester, Donavan LaBella, fracturing his skull. LaBella required facial reconstruction surgery.
But hey, it’s all good as long as you disagree with LaBella’s political views, right? /s
“Perhaps the feds should treat these anarchists as enemy combatants”
LaBella isn’t an enemy combatant.
How astoundingly anti-American for you to suggest that American citizens be treated as enemy combatants for no reason other than that you disagree with their political views.
Committ – isn’t LaBella the one who was trying to throw a tear gas canister back. That is a hostile act. He is an enemy combatant.
And you once again ask a loaded question, provide no evidence, and pretend that your question is a fact.
It’s especially ironic that you suggest that law enforcement throwing a tear gas canister is OK, but a protester tossing it a few feet away from himself (not throwing it at or near any person: https://twitter.com/zerosum24/status/1282275808413966337) is a “hostile act” that turns the person into “an enemy combatant.”
You’re a dishonest person Paul.
If you actually love the country, choose to debate honestly.
Committ – yep, he was the one who tried to throw it back.
No, you’re a dishonest person.
And/or you’re blind. Because there’s video, and he makes absolutely no attempt “to throw it back” at anyone.
Committ – I cannot help it if he throws like a girl.
Maybe you get off on law enforcement acting with impunity, but I don’t.
Nope. I get off on law and order; there’s no maybe about the fact you don’t.
How astoundingly anti-American for you to suggest that American citizens be treated as enemy combatants for no reason other than that you disagree with their political views.
Once again you’re assuming facts not in evidence. Have these anarchists been identified as American citizens? American citizens have the right to peacefully protest. When they cross the line into destruction of property and violence, they should receive whatever force is necessary to restore order. And when they are identified as U.S. citizens, they should be flagged as domestic terrorists.
Paul is the one who said “He [i.e., Donavan LaBella] is an enemy combatant” without providing evidence of any violence. No doubt you’ll also tell him “Once again you’re assuming facts not in evidence.” /s
My OP links to an OPB report stating that LaBella was peaceful, and news reports identify him as originally being from Salem, OR. The news also reports that the U.S. Marshals are investigating and don’t quote anyone suggesting he isn’t a citizen. One would think that they’d note it if he isn’t one.
There are many reports of others being arrested for no apparent reason, where the arresting officer doesn’t identify him/herself, and where the person is later released but not given “any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest.” Here’s an example: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland
(An interview with Homeland Security Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli has already aired on NPR and will be posted online later: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892393079/dhs-official-on-reports-of-federal-officers-detaining-protesters-in-portland-ore)
That is not acceptable.
Paul is the one who said “He [i.e., Donavan LaBella] is an enemy combatant” without providing evidence of any violence.
Honest, huh? You said the following to me:
How astoundingly anti-American for you to suggest that American citizens be treated as enemy combatants for no reason other than that you disagree with their political views.
I responded to that allegation and you deflect blame to Paul? Not only are you being dishonest, you’re deflection is cowardly. You have no idea that all these anarchists are citizens. Yet your complaint is not about the destruction being caused by the anarchists, it’s about the methods being utilized by unidentified law enforcement personnel trying to restore order. GFY! At this point, as far as I’m concerned, the chaos being inflicted on American cities by these anarchists needs to be stopped first and once order is restored, then we can begin discussions on civil liberties. You may want to have a conversation with Book about what rights these anarchists have and the government’s use of force. Polling shows the majority of Americans support it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/06/02/58-of-voters-support-using-military-to-help-police-control-protests-poll-finds/#4ce0ea102417
“GFY!”
Nah.
Of all possible responses to my post, that was likely the only honest, or at least honorable response available.
Well done! 😉
Committ – LaBelle had a loudspeaker over his head (psyops) and followed the directions of some leader behind him (Get that out of here). Hence he qualifies as an enemy combatant. Oh, and there are enemies within the gates.
I think that Donavan Labella was ignoring COVID orders at the time. His injury was unfortunate but if he would have stayed home, no problem
That’s what the feds are finally doing? few snatch and grabs? Oh fantastic, that’s great news for the weekend.
Not quite Pinochet’s dictatorship, because, then they would not be releasing them, But it’s a start! Fingers crossed!
Patriotic Americans applaud the restoration of law, order, and that precious gem hard won in the bloody Civil War– FEDERAL SUPREMACY!~
A Democratic city council is tolerating violent lawlessness in its town qand has done so for months. This response resembles Dwight Eisenhower’s sending in Federal troops to restore the rule of law much more closely. It’s time the Insurrection Act was enforced.
you are as blind as the city council…
When Little Rock and Montgomery decided they were going to let hoodlums run their streets and schools, Presidentis have had no trouble at all sending in Federal troops and law enforcement officials in.to lay down the law. Portland’s Democratic government has used antifa and other violent protesters be their cats’ paws far too long – which is exactly how long it’s been before the Federal government stepped in to protect Federal property, law enforcement personnel, and contractors. Too long.
It’s not just one “silly Seattle council member” and not just this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw
This reminds me of the Winston Churchill definition of appeasement: Feeding your friends to the alligator hoping it eats you last.
I think this is a great idea; then the Police Officers can go and work in a real city.
This is the Democratic Party. It’s who they are, it’s what they do. This woman is begging some bit*hy karma.
Herbold insists that this would be perfectly legal despite the prohibitions under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Given that case law ‘interprets’ that act to permit things that are expressly prohibited (and you can consult bill jackets and the like to see that they were at the time understood to be expressly prohibited), she has a point. NB, a federal appeals court covering Michigan insists it is unconstitutional for the voters of Michigan to debar racial preference schemes in their higher education system.And there are two solutions to that problem: (1) court stripping. Make 14th Amendment jurisprudence a thing of the past. (2) bring an end to anti-discrimination law applicable to any private party not arguably a monopoly provider of goods and services or a monopsony employer.
Idiocy knows no boundaries or directions. America has a blithering idiot for a President and Seattle has a blithering idiot for a City Council Member. These are indisputable facts, there for all to see, recorded on a regular basis. This pair of posts illustrates how pervasive idiocy is in government. Trump and Biggs in Washington and Herbold in Seattle.
issac – Andy Biggs is MY Congressman and if you don’t think Ilhan Omar is a danger to the fabric of this country, you are a danger, too.
As much of a danger any one person can be, I am a danger to bigotry, racism, idiocy, extremism, incompetence, etc. Right now the Republican Party and the President seem to stand for all these. Biggs is far more dangerous than Omar in advocating her censure. It is interesting that when one’s champion flies against free speech, hypocrisy surfaces. Omar and Cortez will be judged on what they say and do. What they said was necessary to wake up their constituents. Compared to McConnell, Biggs, Trump and most of the other Republicans Omar and Cortez are soft. Unless of course, you don’t agree with her direction. Then the enemy is wrong regardless of how right or left.
Your allegiance to YOUR Congressman regardless of HIS positions illustrates what is wrong with this country. It is not MY or YOUR but OUR. Obama had it right.
issac – so you agree that Trump is our President and when he wins re-election he will remain our President?
Gee Paul, this Isaac fella really likes to put himself on a pedestal.
The entire city council and mayor have ruined Seattle over the years. But the voters there keep voting in idiots like this. We avoid going to Seattle like the plague.
Isn’t it amazing that “profiling” African Americans is racist, but profiling all white cops isn’t?
Too funny! But the real question is how did the voters elect a crazy person in the first place.
the same willfully ignorant type that elected obama twice. brainwashed sheep who gave up their ability to think for themselvesw.
Look at Lisa’s staff. All virtue signaling whites. Start by firing them!
So you mean fire someone just because of the color of their skin? Hmmm. how does that go over when you replace the word white with black?
I have said for a number of years that the day would come that the Caucasian’s will need the anti discrimination laws due to discrimination. That day is here! It is time to call these asses out about knowingly breaking the law. This city councilman should be arrested, charged and jailed for what he is knowingly doing. You can say that this is about the history of slavery in this country, but there were black Americans that were slave owners. Many black people outside the United States sold black folks into slavery. At least get the story, history, correct. BLM is a terrorist organization! The little tiny black lives matter is a squeaky wheel, they get the attention. The majority do not even get listened to. Take care of all you asses. Time to stop ms,ing choices based on I do not want to be called a racist because we disagree! I thought that this was a democracy!
I think this is a wonderful idea. Seattle should implement it ASAP.
So you believe that discrimination is ok?
Herbold is just using this as an opportunity to bark about how liberal she thinks she is, while also elevating her notoriety.
That way she can run for a higher office than city council in the future. A classic example of self-serving political grandstanding.
“The white liberal aren’t white people who are for independence, who are moral and ethical in their thinking. They are just a faction of white people that are jockeying for power.”
– Malcolm X
America now has a new Master, and racism is their name.
We must implement the “911 Solution.” It is so simple and yet so fair. For Lisa Herbold and all of the other woke politicians calling for defunding the police, reprogram 911 so it will not accept any calls from any of their telephone numbers. That way she and the others who got rid of the police can embrace their success while giving the rest of us a fighting chance at maintaining some law and order in the explosion of crime that is sure to follow.
Does the town have less crime this year? Are people safe from crime when the reduction of cops takes place? Do home owners have weapons to defend home and humans?
Isn’t last in, first out, still the gold standard? You want to keep your most experienced people regardless of their color.
You know I’m sick of feckless Carmen Best, too. Instead of saying the plan is completely illegal, racist and morally bankrupt we get this nanny pamby merit defense that the outrage doesn’t deserve. She’s fighting a forest fire with a water pistol and obviously way over her head. You confront evil with good, not meh!
Why give racists a platform to spew hatred? We already have CNN, NBC and MSNBC.