There is a new form of protests sweeping across the country as individuals put on anti-Mask masks to defy mandatory mask rules. The anti-masks are made of thin material, mesh or even crochet and are advertised as having no protective qualities for Covid-19. The question is whether they are legal. They appear to be so.
A popular video shows a man wearing a mesh mask to a Tampa Walmart and saying “It was almost like not wearing a mask at all. Nobody cared. That’s because it’s not about safety. It’s all about compliance.”
Most laws like Alabama‘s only refer to a “covering” not a mask with protective qualities:
2. Facial coverings for individuals. Effective July 16, 2020 at 5:00 P.M., each person shall wear a mask or other facial covering that covers his or her nostrils and mouth at all times when within six feet of a person from another household in any of the following places: an indoor space open to the general public, a vehicle operated by a transportation service, or an outdoor public space where ten or more people.
“Facial coverings for individuals.
Effective July 16, 2020 at 5:00 P.M., each person shall wear a mask or other facial covering that covers his or her nostrils and mouth at all times when within six feet of a person from another household in any of the following places: an indoor space open to the general public, a vehicle operated by a transportation service, or an outdoor public space where ten or more people are gathered.”
Even that is subject to exceptions. However, consider the definition of face coverings:
“Face Covering” means a covering that fully covers a person’s nose and mouth, but is not a Medical-Grade Mask. The term “Face Covering” includes, without limitation, scarves and bandanas.”
A mesh mask does cover the fact and, since scarves can be used, there is no effort to indicate a threshold protective level or dimension. There are vast differences between masks and stores are unlikely to want to police the sufficiency of masks, particularly if the states do not specify minimal standards. Even creative work on the noun “cover” does not help much. Oxford defines it as simply “a thing that is put over or on another thing.” A permeable material still covers the mouth and nose. It just does little else.
Twitter is replete with such anti-masks with such disclaimers as “Stylish, breathable and don’t protect you from a darn thing! Masks required? No problem! Breath free while making a statement.”
It is a statement that most people would not want to make. However, it is probably legal. It can bring certain notoriety with a chance of lethal contraction.
However, with cities like Miami threatening $500 fines for failing to wear a mask, more people may choose to protest with these defiant masks — defeating the efforts to curtail the spread.
Given the recent incidents of people flipping out over masks, this is not likely to make things less confrontational. The latest example is some a person named Ruby Musso who filmed herself arguing with staff after she refused to wear a face mask. Multiple employees ask her to leave and she is called a “Karen.” She in turn calls them Nazis.
The store has received threats after the posting of the video. It has become a familiar scene:
The anti-mask mask is likely to trigger new confrontations as stores or other customers object to failure to follow the “spirit” of these orders while others claim the right to comply in their own defiant way.
By the way, the anti-masks are not the only technical workaround pandemic rules. New York bars are now reportedly serving “Cuomo Chips” for $1 to get around the ban on alcohol without food. This is meant to satisfy the requirement that “all restaurants and bars statewide will be subject to new requirements that they must only serve alcohol to people who are ordering and eating food.”
“The question is whether they are legal.”
The question also is whether ordering people to wear masks is legal.
Laws focus on what you cannot do, not on what you must do.
Prairie, you must wear pants if you go in a grocery store.
No, I do not. I can wear a dress. I can wear a skirt and shirt. I cannot be unclothed and I cannot just wear undergarments. I cannot be shirtless; I cannot be shoeless. I do not have to wear pants in particular.
Gee Prairie, meaningful comment there.
Jon Sez — Wrong still and again!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality_rate
Lets see you are wrong on this several different ways and you think that just because YOU are mushy with language and can later try to be precise that you are right about everything ?
No vaccine is 100% effective. So you will never get a denominator of zero. No vaccine is administered to 100% of people.
Every widely administered vaccine is likely to kill a few people and harm others – the H1N1 vaccine paralysed about 500 people.
But it likely saved 10,000 lives.
We are likely to have exactly that debate very shortly as we seem to have 10 different vaccines on track to be ready for September (as well as 76 on track for January). Many of those will fail first.
More importantly, none will be as well tested as we would hope. So do you widely administer a vaccine that has done well in testing so far, that is safe within the population that you have tested, but that you can not be sure how many people will be harmed if it is dispensed by the millions ? It could kill 1000 people – but save 20,000 – so what do you do ? There is even a very small chance it could kill more people than it saves. And you know that if you wait 6 months you will have something much safer – but you will may also have 10’s of thousands of additional deaths.
And complicating this – what if you C19 appears to have mostly dissipated ? do you risk a vaccine that may be unneeded and may kill some people, or do you risk that C19 has burned itself out ?
“No vaccine is 100% effective. So you will never get a denominator of zero. ”
The vaccine may not be 100% effective at keeping you from getting the disease but what if the vaccine is 100% effective at providing sufficient immune response to keep you from dying?
The nature of the Covid disease is that if it infects the upper respiratory system (nose and throat) it is a fairly mild disease, but if it gets into the lungs and vascular system it is a very deadly disease. A vaccine could be effective at either preventing the disease completely in some individuals or failing that keeping the disease from becoming deadly in the few that do get sick.
“The vaccine may not be 100% effective at keeping you from getting the disease but what if the vaccine is 100% effective at providing sufficient immune response to keep you from dying?”
That is not what ineffective means.
In some instances a vaccine can actually result in your getting the disease even WORSE rather than better.
One of the reasons it take so long to develop a vaccine is they are not trivial. There are more potential bad outcomes than good ones.
The pentagon studied the effect of the flu vaccine and found it increased your odds of getting C19 by a factor of 3.
All of us want the C19 vaccine yesterday – and there ARE some new technologies that have a very high probability of producing something very safe. But those same technologies have the lowest odds of producing something effective.
A vaccine must – be safe to give to hundreds of millions of people. It must improve your immune response – but there is plenty of chance it can make the disease worse. Or that some people will be helped and others harmed.
Vaccines that work are miracles. But it is really great that we have 70+ candidates in the pipeline – because some are going to fail spectaclularly.
The Flu Vacccine fails frequently – about 30% of the time. Slightly more rarely it is WORSE than no vaccine at all.
“The nature of the Covid disease is that if it infects the upper respiratory system (nose and throat) it is a fairly mild disease, but if it gets into the lungs and vascular system it is a very deadly disease. A vaccine could be effective at either preventing the disease completely in some individuals or failing that keeping the disease from becoming deadly in the few that do get sick.”
Could is not the same as WILL. The good news is we have over 70 shots at getting it right. The bad news is this is hard.
While I think there is a good chance we will have something by September. There is no certainty. There is not even certainty that we will have something by January.
This approach of 70 efforts in paralell is unusual. It has a good possiblity of getting accross the goal faster.
But I would note that it is also possible that C19 will be gone by September.
Jon Sez — Still completely innumerate, I see. If nobody is infected by influenza virus, nobody dies from that cause.
“Jon Sez — Still completely innumerate, I see. If nobody is infected by influenza virus, nobody dies from that cause.”
That is correct, but that is not what mortality rate means.
It is of those who were infected how many died.
And 0/0 != 0
Further as noted before – Vaccines are not 100% effective.
So you have multiple errors of logic, understanding and math.
Jon Sez — Once again you demonstrate your innumeracy. If everyone took vaccine the mortality rate from influenza would be zero.
“Jon Sez — Once again you demonstrate your innumeracy. If everyone took vaccine the mortality rate from influenza would be zero.”
Or the mortality rate would be infinite.
Of course that presumes that the flu vaccine is 100% successful – which it rarely is.
Further the pentagon did a study on C19 and found that those who had gotten the flu vaccine were 3 times as likely to get C19.
The first flu vaccine was used in WW2 – but the flu vaccine did not become commonplace in the US until the 1990’s.
regardless, the vaccine does not change the mortality of the flu at all.
It changes the infection rate.
You seem to think the real world is perfect – it isn’t
John Say and David Benson – people get the flu from the vaccine.
Unless there is a mistake and live vaccine is injected how would the vaccine cause the flu?
Allan – I am not a scientist and I do not play one on TV. So, damned if I know. However, teachers and school staff usually get the flu shot every year and I have personally known a couple to come down with the flu almost immediately. Now, this is anecdotal, so?
That doesn’t mean it comes from the flu shot. People come down with all sorts of ailments and that can happen in proximity to the flu shot. If you run the numbers you will find that such infections should be the rule not the exception.
I am sorry to say this Allan, but I am with Paul here.
I have also known a few too many in a corporation to get sick, and I mean flu-like sick, not some other ailment, and it was directly after receiving the free flu shot on the corporation premises. It is more of a causation, then a coincidental correlation. And yes, some are accidentally given live dosages, accidentally or purposely, we will never know….unless someone has a lab and can immediately test every vile before injecting someone on the spot.
One of these free flu shot guinea pigs was my former boss, who ended up getting the flu within a few days, and within days, I ALSO had flu like symptoms — thanks to her getting the flu shot, and coughing everywhere in and around me, so yeah, it can happen.
Note to All: If you do not need a flu shot, do not get one.
than*
“I have also known a few too many in a corporation to get sick, and I mean flu-like sick, not some other ailment,”
Are you claiming that they were given live flu vaccine?
Run the numbers. We remember those that think they got the flu from the flu shot. We forget all the rest. The flu shot can cause a reaction and some think that is the flu. Some people coincidentally get infected with the flu or other organisms in close proximity to the shot and that is to be expected.
List the names of all the people that you believe got the flu from the flu shot. Let’s see how many people that actully is.
Why would anyone put something into their body, their blood stream, and the like, that does not need to be there?
Only people who should get a flu shot each year: elderly, young, and immune compromised.
Everyone else? No.
But again, your vessel, your body, it is a personal choice.
Everyone should do what they want to when it comes to their vessel, regardless of science or religion.
And no one should be forced to do anything related to injections unless they want to get it done.
If they suffer consequences from NOT getting a flu shot, that is their choice. If they get sick, that is their issue,
#not for a nanny state
And I feel the same way about these masks.
I make a decision to wear one, but if someone else does not want to wear one, then why should I feel the justification to exercise authority over them?
My personal opinion: if someone is not wearing a mask around you and it bothers you, walk away from them, and maintain distance.
It is literally no ones right or decision to exercise this level of authority over another citizen in this country.
Everyone needs to mind their own business.
If you want to wear one, wear one. If you do not want to wear one, then do not wear one. And let’s all agree to not judge each other and everyone mind their own business.
Anonymous, you would be worse than worthless in any national crisis from the past, including the wars. But hey Snowflake, you be sure and stand up for your precious right to not wear a mask.
I won’t force anyone to take the shot or not take the shot. That is the individual’s choice. The shot doesn’t even work for everyone especially the immune compromised.
However, the flu vaccine is not live material and if one wants to say that loads are people are getting the flu from the flu shot then they have to believe the shot has live flu in it. That is not the case. Coincidental infections occur
Think how many flu shots are given in october and how many get infected with the flu or something they might think is the flu even though they didn’t get the shot. If some of them had gotten the shot, guess what? They would think it was from the flu vaccine.
Allan – I am in agreement with you. I went to the CDC and NIH and reviewed a few docs, and at a cursory review, it does appear that SOME have an adverse reaction to the flu shot that appears to look like the flu.
So, you are accurate about the adverse reaction.
“So, you are accurate about the adverse reaction.”
Thank you for your comment and telling us what the CDC said.
Or maybe people should choose for themselves.
WE give kids vaccines against Measles, Mumps and Rubella.
Healthy people get Tetnus shots.
I agree with you that people should think about what they are doing.
I do not agree that the choices are obvious.
I did not say the flu vaccine sometimes caused the flu.
There is a pentagon study that says that if you got the flu vaccine you were 3 times more likely to get C19.
I have know idea of the merits of that study – but it exists.
I do know that the Flu vaccine is hit or miss. That many years the Flu vaccine is inneffective.
One of the problems with the flu vaccine is that we typically see the flu in china more than a year before it reaches the US – this is also why Tiawan, Japan and much of asia are better at stopping diseases from china at their border – because the flu vaccine can not be developed fast enough to protect those countries.
Regardless health experts must guess ahead of time which strains of the flu are going to spread.
I beleive a typical flu vaccine targets 3-7 strains of the flu, but usually only 1 hits the US.
There is also as I understand it a potential adverse vaccine response. If you do not get the vaccine right – you can actually increase the odds that people vaccinated contract the disease later. I am not perfectly familiar with the process but it is well known and real and part of why it takes so long to develop vaccines.
We also have evidence that other corona virus infections give atleast temporary protection from C10 – specifically colds that are caused by corona viruses.
“I did not say the flu vaccine sometimes caused the flu.”
John, no one said you did. My response was to Paul whose comment is immediately above mine.
John,
I’d have to see the study. Correlation does not equal causation. Elderly people are more likely to get a flu shot than a 30-year-old, I’d wager. That does not mean the flu shot caused a person to get C19. Perhaps people with fragile immune systems are more likely to get the flu shot. How the study examined age, comorbidities, etc is important to tease out correlation vs causation.
If the flu shot did interfere with people’s natural immune responses such that they were more susceptible to C19, that warrants a great deal of study!
You can search for the study if you want.
I am not claiming I agree. Only that “experts” came to that conclusion.
Experts have come to lots of conclusions that other experts have determined are wrong. ‘
I prefer to have evidence before reaching a conclusion.
But the Pentagon study is still information. It could be right.
Or not. It is something to ponder.
I beleive the pentagon study was on military personal – not elderly people.
The pentagon cares about the impacts of things on soldiers.
There are myriads of examples of things that are good for you also being bad for you – in a different way.
I am not selling the Pentagon study, only noting it exists,
and that vaccines are complicated.
They can be both beneficial and harmful.
And the process of developing vaccines is more complex.
It is actually possible to create a scenario where you are more not less susceptable.
In fact it is common, and one of the reasons that vaccines requires so much testing.
That and the fact that we do not like giving things to millions of healthy people
“If everyone took vaccine the mortality rate from influenza would be zero.”
David. Did you make that BS up as you wrote it?
CDC: Seasonal Flu Vaccine Effectiveness
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.htm#figure
The effective rate between 2018-2019 was 29%, not “zero”.
So you were only off by 71%.
Apparently your effective rate for internet searches is zero.
Geffen
Never mind.
Who was David Gefen?
Sounds a bit retro.
Windle Turley books:
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Amazing_Monarch.html?id=POP5mgEACAAJ&source=kp_author_description
COVID-19 death rate in the USA about 3 times that for influenza, for which there is a vaccine.
At this point the data is not solid. But you are likely correct.
The Flu typically infects about 60M people and kills about 60K,
C19 has likely infected 25-54M people and killed 132K
Though the mortality rate for C19 varies with age much more radically than the Flu. With younger people being as much as 11 times less likely to die from it while those over 45 are as much as 5 times more likely to die.
The existence of a vaccine does not effect mortality. It effects the infection rate.
“influenza, for which there is a vaccine”
You really need to do some basic research before posting. It appears that you think there is only one type of flu virus, and therefore one vaccine.
You are wrong once again, David.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htm
“Influenza Vaccine Viruses
One influenza A(H1N1), one influenza A(H3N2), and one or two influenza B viruses (depending on the vaccine) are included in each season’s influenza vaccines. Getting a flu vaccine can protect against flu viruses that are like the viruses used to make vaccine. Information about this season’s vaccine can be found at Preventing Seasonal Flu with Vaccination. Seasonal flu vaccines do not protect against influenza C or D viruses. In addition, flu vaccines will NOT protect against infection and illness caused by other viruses that also can cause influenza-like symptoms. There are many other viruses besides influenza that can result in influenza-like illness (ILI) that spread during flu season.”
So taking corona virus advice from you, is like taking advice from Pee Wee Herman on Quantum entanglement.
David Benson is the God Emperor of Making Stuff Up and owes me forty-five citations (one from the OED, one from the town ordinances and two from the Old Testament), an equation and the source of a quotation, and his mental health professional certificate after eighty-three weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. and is suffering from cementia – actually, David, there is a new vaccine every year. They try to guess what the flu strain is going to be and then build the vaccine around that. They have been wrong. However, at our age, we should be taking it regardless.
Now that I have to wear a mask I’ve decided to stop washing my hands.
LOL…Touché
Love the humor.
I was dragged to Hobby Lobby today to help in selecting parts for the Mrs new sewing machine. So I grabbed my 100% cotton bandanna, wrapped it around my lower face below my ears, and wondered if walking into a bank lobby would cause any consternation.
Anonymous…..LOL… I always crack up laughing when a married man has to use the words “Hobby Lobby” in a sentence 😊
Yes I’ve been tested, I’m positive that I am negative.
Today.
Just like coats, masks are not created equally!
A light windbreaker won’t protect you from the cold when it’s 15 degrees below zero, yet it’s still a coat. So if you wore a windbreaker in frigid temperatures, are you now going to say that coats don’t work?
As an RN for more than 40 years, wearing masks in quarantine/isolation units, especially in cases of an infectious respiratory pathogen, was/is standard procedure.
Do you really want to take care of someone with active tuberculosis WITHOUT a mask?
Wearing a mask during surgery is also standard procedure.
Do you want your surgeon breathing and spewing respiratory droplets into your open body cavity during surgery?
How do you feel about wearing a mask when a person has Pneumonic plague, a variant of Bubonic plague that is spread through airborne respiratory particles?
Smallpox, although officially eradicated, is spread through airborne droplets – don’t want to mask with that disease?
Meningococcal disease/meningitis can also be airborne, want to risk contracting this?
Now as to whether or not Covid-19 is a hoax, mildly infectious, or as deadly as is being reported, that’s another issue all together.
Are the numbers being inflated, I do believe that they are, but PLEASE don’t discard proven, sound scientific fact, and make it out to be something ineffectual, sinister, or conspiratorial.
Masks have been worn to help prevent the spread of infectious pathogens for over 100 years, but now during Covid, SUDDENLY, masks don’t work, or are dangerous?
Do I think that wearing an N-95 or N-100 mask is oppressive when installing dry wall, handling certain chemicals, during woodworking, or during an infectious disease outbreak, NO!
You have never interacted with an active TB patient. Medical personnel who interact with such a patient have to undergo:
1. Fit checking
2. Fit testing
3. assignment of HEPA filter mask – 99.97% efficiency in removal of airborne particles
TB is caused by mycobacterium tuberculosis , a bacterium, while COVID-19 is caused by a virus. A virus is much smaller than a bacterium, ranging from 1/10th – 1/100th the size of a bacterium. If you truly believed this virus is on par with TB, you would not be advocating people wear cloth masks
As I posted elsewhere on this forum months ago, an individual who wears a N95 mask must undergo fit checking and fit testing.
Otherwise, wearers of masks are giving themselves false assurances they are protected. They are not
All of what you listed have been around for centuries. We haven’t been wearing masks until now. The common flu is more deadly than SARS-COV2. We don’t wear masks for it. I understand in a hospital or isolation ward. Going to Walmart doesn’t need a mask.
FTR: I’ve had it.I survived.
Strangely, doctors and nurses still get colds and the flu. How can this be? Perhaps because TB is bacterial, as is the plague and most other “respiratory pathogens” for which protective masks are effective…which, by the way, a bandanna or a piece of cloth with a couple of strings sewn on are not.
Mask mandates serve three purposes: They provide a little (false) sense of security to the sheep who’d give up their freedom in an instant if they thought they could trade it for safety and security. They allow politicians to be seen as “doing something”; to a politician, doing exactly the wrong thing is better than being seen as doing nothing. They reinforce the perception that freedom and choice are nothing more than privileges granted by the government.
Small anecdote: I ordered food from a local restaurant for pickup. I went in to pick it up and the manager absolutely lost her mind “YOU CAN’T COME IN HERE WITHOUT A MASK!!!!!!”. I said “that’s fine, you don’t want my money you can just throw the food you made for me away and I’ll go somewhere else.” Oops. She didn’t realize I’d ordered…all the sudden it was “wait right here, I’ll get your food”.
But my food wasn’t ready, so I asked if they’d be more comfortable with me waiting outside the front door. This was amenable and they said they’d bring it out to me. As I was walking back out, I noted that the people sitting at the tables on either side of the path I was walking had all taken their masks off so that they could eat and drink, they were laughing and talking and having a good time…as they should be.
When the manager subsequently brought my food out to me I asked her…”tell me, why is it so vital for me to wear a mask as I’m walking into your place, but as soon as I get to my table I can take it off? Do you have magical anti-corona force fields around the tables?” “Well, you can’t hardly eat while wearing a mask” she said as if that made any sense at all. I replied “So, coronavirus doesn’t strike while eating? If this is really about stopping the spread of a deadly virus, it seems a little arbitrary to me to determine it’s OK to sit at a table without a mask, but not OK to walk the six or ten steps from the front door to the table.”
I think I put her into vapor lock. She just stood and stared at me for a few minutes while I collected my food and walked away.
Americans used to be brave and independent and hardy and understood that risk is an unavoidable part of life. This whole panic sickens me. I could see shutting things down at first when we didn’t know much about the virus or how bad it would be, but it’s pretty damn obvious by this point that this is hardly the black plague. It’s a bad flu that’s for sure and it is life threatening to people in high risk groups, but this overwrought, craven fear over it is just disheartening.
For the record, I’m in my mid-50’s and have cancer so I’m in one of the higher risk groups for this. I’m not saying this because I think I’m immune.
Everyone dies. The mortality rate of being human is 100%. One isn’t defined by how they died. One is defined by how they lived.
One of the problems for the store that you failed to recognize – is that when private businesses do not enforce government mandates – no matter how silly – government will shut them down.
So John.
How does that explain the customers in the private business sitting at tables not wearing masks?
Did the government shut them down for failing to teach their customers how to eat and drink while wearing a mask?
Rhodes,
There are absolutely individuals who chaffe at restrictions on liberty who will take that resistance with them into business ownership.
But the norm is the opposite. I grump and moan about stupid government demands, in private, or on blogs under a pseudonym.
When the city comes to my business it is “yes, sir, No, Sir” Even though I am kow towing to some twerp half my age who is thoroughly clueless.
We have seen governments threaten to shut businesses down that fail to force their customers to follow regulations.
WE have even seen law enforcement to to compell businesses to enforce requirements that do not exist.
Few businesses stand up to city hall.
John, you’re missing the point.
I.E.- “So, coronavirus doesn’t strike while eating? If this is really about stopping the spread of a deadly virus, it seems a little arbitrary to me to determine it’s OK to sit at a table without a mask, but not OK to walk the six or ten steps from the front door to the table.”
– Sailorcurt
Rhodes, it’s a bad compromise – reduce capacity and therefore increase spacing – but the only option to not letting restaurants serve diners. The fact that it is, is an argument for closing the restaurants, not turning them into the covid-19 wild west.
All that matters is deaths.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lrc-cdn/assets/2020/07/1232.png
They have plummeted since late April. Yet the MSM only talks about new positives, and never ever mentions the huge reduction in deaths from the virus.
If that doesn’t make you suspicious, I can’t help you.
Rhodes, deaths is not all that matters, but even if it was, it is a lagging indicator and cases have surged, uniquely in the US. We’ll see what deaths do over the next few months.
As to other things that matter, there is evidence that some suffer permanent damage to their lungs, heart, or brain, it is highly contagious so keeping cases down helps control the threat to challenged groups, and lastly. it can be really a m…f….er. I have a work associate who had it and survived. He said he coughed until he fainted – over and over. I have another friend/work associate who has avoided that symptom, but he’s had it for going on 3 weeks and is exhausted.
“Rhodes, deaths is not all that matters, but even if it was,”
Death is pretty much what matters most.
Nearly all of us would choose C19 and alive over C19 and dead by a long shot.
Most of us would prefer to avoid even the typical mild case of C19 – but we would take that over all the losses from lockdown etc.
But almost none would choose death.
“it is a lagging indicator and cases have surged,”
It is, but we are WAY past when the increase in positive tests should have resulted in dramatic increases in deaths and hospitalizations.
“uniquely in the US.” – actually no many nations have seen this pattern. And the explanation is that it is an artifact of improved testing over time.”
Here is an excellent article statistically refuting that claim AND numerous other fallacies you have presented.
http://www.data-analyst.org/wp/coronavirus-covid-19-the-fallacy-of-some-simple-arguments/
“We’ll see what deaths do over the next few months.:”
We are past the point at which there should have been some upward change in deaths.
Todays total is 853 – down from 908 yesterday and 943 the day before.
You can find this on ycharts, There is a cycle in the data, and we are headed down now, but it will rise again, if a few days – but to a lower peak than before.
C19 despite your wishes is winding down not up.
This is a big country with a dispersed population, we are taking longer than smaller countries.
Stupid lockdown policies delayed things further.
But we are on the downslope not the up slope.
More testing will always produce more positive results.
It does not change the total action number of cases.
Multiply the peak in April by 10-20, and multiply the numbers today by 6 and see how they compare.
There are 3.7M confirmed cases in the US according to JHU.
But CDC estimates 25-54M We misses an enormous number of mild cases. Everyone did.
“there is evidence that some suffer permanent damage to their lungs, heart, or brain”
You keep repeating this. It is true – for severe cases. The same is true of the Flu, Colds, Pneumonia.
Severe cases are almost exclusively in the same population that dies.
This is not happening with kids, and young adults, or even healthy adults.
It is happening to people who have serious risks already.
It is happening to people who are likely to die – of the flu, or pneumonia if not C19 or to die of whatever their underlying condition is.
So far the evidence is that for those under 20 EVERYTHING about C19 is 1/11th as bad as the flu.
“it is highly contagious”
That changes little.
“so keeping cases down helps control the threat to challenged groups,”
No it does not – it just changes the timeline nothing else.
Actually protecting at risk groups, and letting this pass quickly though very low risk groups would substantially benefit those at risk.
Dragging this out puts them at HIGHER not lower risk.
“and lastly. it can be really a m…f….er. I have a work associate who had it and survived. He said he coughed until he fainted – over and over. I have another friend/work associate who has avoided that symptom, but he’s had it for going on 3 weeks and is exhausted.”
I have a congential deformity in my lungs. The worst you describe above sounds like an easy bout of the Flu for me.
I get the flu shot every year. When that fails and it often does, I am in trouble for 2 months. The Flu usually passes in 7-10 days, but it has weakened my immune system and I pick up follow on infections one after the other. Once I get a cough only two things work – Codeine and tessalon perles. And try getting codeine today. Coughing until I pass out – happens every couple of years. Coughing until I $h!t or throw up is another one.
And that is just the flu. And I get really pissed when the flu shot does not work, because, when they announce the flu shot did not work well, I know I am going to lose 2 months.
I personally take C19 very seriously. I understand that it is gunning for me.
But I am not so stupid as to beleive that just because of my personal risks, that the whole world needs locked down.
I am not the narcissist you seem to be.
Rhodes, most of those deaths were caused when New York City was overwhelmed. NYC was essentially under siege.
But current trends, in mid July, don’t look good to anyone who can read statistics. Yet Trump supporters are frozen in April and still commenting as though this pandemic was limited to a few blue state cities.
“most of those deaths were caused when New York City was overwhelmed. NYC was essentially under siege.”
Such BS from Paint Chips. Ny death rate was very high because their policies killed seniors and now they passed a law to grant immunity to those that caused those deaths. Additionaly their mass transit sanitation was abysmal.
The lack of preparedness was the fault of Governor Cuomo and the hospital overcrowding a failure of the governor and the mayor. Overcrowding occurs every flu season in NY.
“most of those deaths were caused when New York City was overwhelmed. NYC was essentially under siege.”
Nope. NYC never exceeded 1/2 of its NORMAL ICU capacity. The assorted emergency additions were never used.
“But current trends, in mid July don’t look good to anyone who can read statistics.”
I can read statistics – you can find daily deaths at ycharts. They increased a small amount – as expected when we reopened and are trending down very slowly.
“Yet Trump supporters are frozen in April”
This is not about Trump.
“still commenting as though this pandemic was limited to a few blue state cities.”
No, this is pretty much past through the blue cities. It is now hitting areas of much lower population density. It will spread much slower their, and likely kill far fewer people, because they are overall healthier and younger, and whiter.
Further the numbers are near certainly far lower – but the testing rates being 6 times higher obscures that.
If you scale the # of cases up by the inverse of the testing rate – we are on the downslope.
JHU says 2.7M people have been infected, CDC estimate 25-54M. that means the past daily cases are of by a factor of 10-20, and the current cases off by a factor of 4-10.
If you want to admit to praying for a death spike in order to get rid of Trump – go ahead.
But so far the statistics have a slowly declining death rate, That means this is burning out.
As you said that is a lagging indicator.
You seem to think you get the right to decide.
You can not seem to grasp that there is a radical difference between the possibility that what you wish to do might be a good idea – in some instance, and that you can force it on others
Leave government out of it.
You are not going to visit a resturaunt that does not operate as you wish – that is your absolute right.
A resturaunt must do what is required to appeal to enough customers to stay in business.
If it can do so without conforming to your demands – that is its bussiness.
If it can not – it is going to have to make you happy – whatever that takes.
Freedom works – you might even get what you want.
But no actual force will be involved and therefor it will be moral.
I would further note that in many of these things there is not a one size fits all known right choice.
There may not even be a right choice for a specific resturaunt.
Perfection is often unacheivable.
You note that compromise might occur.
Absolutely – but government should not be part of that.
Businesses must meet customers wants and needs.
It all works out.
further if the choice proves effective – other businesses will follow.
If it does not, if people get sick, then the business will have to change.
Free markets are amazing – dynamically shifting to meet our wants and needs.
We needed Toilet paper – every day the supermarkets in LA run out, Every night they were fully restocked.
We needed hand sanitizer – Ollies has it now by the VAT full dirt cheap.
It was only briefly in short supply and no one actually had to go without.
We needed Masks – Obama/Biden had burned through the 100M in strategic reserve and never replaced them.
We were told we were screwed – they were all made in china, and the Chinese were keeping them for themselves.
Yet Amazon delivered 2 for every member of my family, and 4 replacement filters each in 4 days.
Today I can get fancy masks with whatever message or image I want for half what I paid from amazon.
We were told there were too few ventalators – Musk figured out how to make the worlds best Ventalators out of car parts,
before we learned ventalators were a bad idea.
Whatever we needed – the market found a way to deliver.
The only things we can not have that we want are those that government has restricted.
In the midst of the most amazing proof of how well free markets works – the US was able to make masks even for the EU and CA.
Idiots on the left are trying to sell us socialism.
People in Venezuealla once the richest country in south america are dying of starvation – and there are Generation $h!theads running arround trying to sell socialism ?
I did not miss anything.
I just made a different point.
I do not think we are in disagreement.
Well said.
A local or state matter I can’t comment on Sailor, but, where I live restaurants are allowed to stay open if they limit occupancy significantly from full capacity and space diners out. Of course you can’t eat with a mask on and that is why I will not be one of those visiting a restaurant except for pick-up. Of course it is an arbitrary and imperfect rule, but devised as a compromise between putting all the restaurants out of business and trying to come up with something to allow them to open. Your deciding to be a f….g jerk accomplished nothing and if anything increased the likelihood of someone catching the virus in the restaurant that night. It certainly didn’t help anything except your misguided concept of what being alive means. Needless risk taking not involving major life experiences is not life affirming, and picking up to-go food without wearing a mask does not qualify – it’s being a jerk causing risk for others as well as yourself. There is no higher principle in your actions except the one you failed – when there is a crisis affecting the nation – indeed the world – park your ego for awhile and get in line. Eisenhower did not say “pretty please” when he sent men and boys onto the beaches of Normandy and they didn’t grouse about their rights, even if they made it to the dune alive.
“There is no higher principle in your actions except the one you failed – when there is a crisis affecting the nation”
Yet as soon as the last Level 6 pandemic declared by the WHO in 2009 none of this stay in place, social distancing, and masks, was mandated.
So much for the “higher principle”, huh BTB?
Don’t piss down my leg, and tell me it’s raining.
The H1N1 crisis did not begin to rise to the level of this one Rhodes. Surely you can understand that, correct? Or you think there is a plot by …… by who? …. to make you wear masks for the rest of your life?
“The H1N1 crisis did not begin to rise to the level of this one ”
It did not ?
The H1N1 pandemic did not rise to the level of HYPE of C19.
But little else is different.
We had far more reason to be afraid of H1N1 – the previous H1N1 epidemic was the infamous 1918 flu.
That alone should have scared the $h!t out of Obama/Biden – instead they sat on their hands.
The good news for them was that it moved far slower. At the same time global deaths were about the same and global infections far greater,.
No one lockeddown, no one even thought about it.
We were not all wearing masks.
And social distancing.
And yet it went through the world – infecting possibly 1.4B people and killing 500K.
That is 100 times more infections than C19 and about the same total deaths.
Maybe C19 will end up at double the deaths, and my guess is that when we figure out how many people were really infected C19 will be about the same as H1N1.
So in the end H1N1 MIGHT be almost twice as fatal, that is about it.
If the actions government has taken in response to C19 were legitimate – they would have been done with H1N1.
But they are not – and you know it. You and the media and the left are so full of TDS that you have to make everything into a crisis.
Come late November it will all change. By then the DNC will have broken the spirits of citizens in Democrat governor states, while in Republican governor states, the citizens will have a vigorous response. Add to this the issue of the 2nd Amendment
should be interesting. The US Civil War is considered the deadliest conflict in US history. Given the present polarization in our nation, I suspect it might be worse.
More snowflake talk from one of our resident drama queens.
BTB – the other snowflake is me, I just did not plug my name in. The anonymous above is not me.
I assume you mistook me for the other anonymouses. That is okay.
If I was in charge, it would be very simple, pertaining to masks. It is your social obligation to wear a mask indoors. If you have a medical condition or otherwise feel the need to not wear a mask, you are not obligated to wear one.
If you are not wearing a mask, and you appear sick, the owner can request your to leave and or refuse you service.
Everyone else, mind your own business, and maintain distance from non-mask wearers, do not engage.
Does your remark mean anything ?
Forget Trump – who in their right minds would put those who are getting attention on the left in charge of street cleaning – much less a nation.
Look how well they did with CHAZ.
It’s estimated that the swine flu — a new type of flu that spread worldwide during 2009-2010, causing the first flu pandemic — caused more than 12,000 flu-related deaths in the U.S.
“It’s estimated that the swine flu — a new type of flu that spread worldwide during 2009-2010, causing the first flu pandemic”
H1N1 is not NEW – H1N1pdm09 is a variant of the H1N1 virus that caused the 1918 flu And this is what terified the crap out of people.
You can play word games as you please. The 1967 Flu was as bad as Covid – 1/2 the population 1/2 the number of deaths.
And the 1918 Flu was dramatically worse. It is considered the deadliest pandemic in history.
n the U.S., about 28% of the population of 105 million became infected, and 500,000 to 850,000 died
The 2009 H1N1 epidemic also did not hit the elderly very hard – it is suspected that was because it was very similar to the H1N1 epidemic in 1957 and that the elderly were immune.
The death rate of the 2009 H1N1 epidmic is under review with current estimates asserting that the laboratory verified number of deaths is less than 1/10 of the total.
Obama was president at the time – so we did not attribute people who died in Motorcycle accident after testing postive to H1N1.
The CDC laboratory verified every death.
If you did that With C19 – we might only have 12,000 deaths.
“The (H1N1)pdm09 virus was very different from H1N1 viruses that were circulating at the time of the pandemic. Few young people had any existing immunity (as detected by antibody response) to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus, but nearly one-third of people over 60 years old had antibodies against this virus, likely from exposure to an older H1N1 virus earlier in their lives. Since the (H1N1)pdm09 virus was very different from circulating H1N1 viruses, vaccination with seasonal flu vaccines offered little cross-protection against (H1N1)pdm09 virus infection. While a monovalent (H1N1)pdm09 vaccine was produced, it was not available in large quantities until late November—after the peak of illness during the second wave had come and gone in the United States. From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus.”
From the CDC, which is no doubt part of the plot John is onto which includes climate science, and the NOAA. Since he knows more than any of these scientists, we here at this blog are uniquely in the know.
What part of what the CDC says do you think Is important ?
The CDC death toll is not an estimate, it is based on laboratory testing by CDC. If we uses the same approach for C19 the death toll would be 1/10th what it currently is.
You claim I am antiscience – yet is it scientists would have claimed the CDC estimate is off by a factor of 10.
I do not know the correct answer. I do not routinely accept what the CDC says as gospel, nor do I accept what some scientists say.
Your the one who demands that we all except what someone with a Phd says – regardless if it makes sense or is contradicted by another phd.
Regardless, what is it that you think your quote proves ?
All H1N1 variants are similar. But vaccines for one may not work for another – or they may.
Old people tended not to get the 2009 virus. Either because they had immunity from 1957 from a slightly different H1N1 variant.
Or because H1N1 does not target older people. Who knows for sure.
The 1918 Flu – by far the worst pandemic ever was H1N1 – there was very good reason to be very afraid of H1N1 – a return of the 1918 flu would have made C19 look like a birthday party. The 1918 H1N1 also left the elderly alone and killed people with a strong immune system.
Nothing in your CDC article demonstrates Obama did well. H1N1 first emerged – likely in the Summer of 2008, but maybe as late as November.
You are free to make your own determinations regarding eating out. The resturaunt is free to decide what rules it wishes to impose.
Determining acceptable risks is up to the individual. They bear the cost of their choices.
In Tiawan resturants stayed open. But at all resturants and stores your temperature was taken before entering, and you were not allowed in with a fever.
That worked very effectively for them.
Part of the magic of liberty – free markets is that many things are tried and those that work best rapidly become the norm.
When you impose rules by force you destroy that.
Further no petty bureaucrat can know the right choices for all.
Whitmer ended up in a bind because she could (stupidly ) stop residents from going hunting and fishing – which would be very good choices during a “lockdown”, but she had no authority to stop those from other states from doing the same.
Then she ended up with a mess because she decided contractors were essential business, but people could not do home improvement while they were lockdown.
She also idiotically decided that people could not start their gardens – plant flowers or fruits and vegetables.
And you want to piss on Trump ?
Whitmer was the poster child for bad nanny state nonsense.
“Of course it is an arbitrary and imperfect”
Which is why you allow people to decide for them selves.
If your rules are arbitrary or imperfect, then they should not be imposed by force.
“devised as a compromise between putting all the restaurants out of business”
That is the choice of businesses and their patrons. Government has no role.
“and trying to come up with something to allow them to open.”
You do not get to decide whether other people get to keep their business open – only whether YOU frequent those businesses.
“Your deciding to be a f….g jerk accomplished nothing”
That is right, look in the mirror. You have accomplished nothing.
Which lockdown state has not fared 5 times worse than those that did not ?
Todate there is no evidence that government policies have worked – not Trump’s not Whitmer’s not Cuomo’s not ANY.
That is not a red blue thing – but we can make it one if you wish.
“increased the likelihood of someone catching the virus in the restaurant that night.”
A choice that the resturant owner and patrons get to make.
As you said – you would not eat there probably neither would I.
But neither of Us get to force others to do as we please.
“Needless risk taking”
Is not your personal business.
“not involving major life experiences is not life affirming”
You do not get to decide what is a major life experience for others.
You do not get to decide what is life afirming for others.
Weddings and engagements and birthdays, and retirements and myriads of other “life affirming” events have been destroyed or mangled by your idiocy. And yet you want the moral high ground? You are merely a bully and thug who thinks you get to control the lives of others.
You do not, and your efforts to do so are immoral.
Taking choices from others is ACTUALLY – “being a jerk”
“There is no higher principle in your actions”
Of course there is
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
― Benjamin Franklin,
“Better to die fighting for freedom then be a prisoner all the days of your life.”
― Bob Marley
“Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves”
― Abraham Lincoln
“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
― Henry David Thoreau
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
― Thomas Jefferson
“I am an American; free born and free bred, where I acknowledge no man as my superior, except for his own worth, or as my inferior, except for his own demerit.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”
― Patrick Henry
” when there is a crisis affecting the nation – indeed the world ”
And yet there is none. 2.78M americans die each year. that is 7400/day. The total C19 deaths are barely a blip.
2020 may end with fewer total deaths, or more. but it will not end far from the norm.
The vast majority of those who have died – though they will be missed, were dying soon anyway.
C19 may have cost them a few days or even a few months, or it may have saved them from death by pneumonia or the flu.
Most were dying anyway.
We still have not normalized C19 numbers, We are counting as a C19 death anyone who MIGHT have had C19 when they died.
That is not how we measure other diseases. In a year when we go back and correct our statistics, we may yet find that C19 was just like the flu – or very little worse.
At the moment it appears to be twice as bad as a typical flu year – not a crisis. It is far less bad than the 1967 Flu which barely made the media. It is not 1/10th as bad as the 1918 flu which infected and killed more than 3times as many people – out of a population 1/3 the current size – in otherwords it was 10 times as bad.
“park your ego for awhile”
Good advice to you.
“Eisenhower did not say “pretty please” when he sent men and boys onto the beaches of Normandy and they didn’t grouse about their rights, even if they made it to the dune alive.”
This is not war, the only existential threat to the country is the idiotic ideology of the left. C19 is not a blip.
Even during WWII only 1 in 5 soldiers were drafted.
Right and left use the language of war to justify infringing on peoples rights.
There is no justifiable war on poverty, war on drugs. war on terror, trade war, war on crime, culture war, war on christmas, war on women, war on pornography ….
Those who invoke the metaphor of war when there is no actual existential threat are lying to gain power.
They are evil and immoral and think the ends justify the means – whether on the left or right.
Do you really want to channel drug warriors or those on the right who pretend that their goals and objectives can be justify with the language of war ? If not than do not behave as they do.
“You are free to make your own determinations regarding eating out. The resturaunt is free to decide what rules it wishes to impose.”
Of course that is not true in most places across the country at present.
I did not read further. What would be the point?
““You are free to make your own determinations regarding eating out. The resturaunt is free to decide what rules it wishes to impose.”
Of course that is not true in most places across the country at present.”
You do not seem to understand morality.
Neither you directly, not through government are free to use force to restrict the liberty of others without justification.
Justification is not easy. It is not I say so. It is not I have a good idea.
The moral constraints on the use of force by government are no different than those for individuals.
What you can not morally do as an individual, you can not morally do through government.
You are correct that customers and restaurant owners are not free to make their own choices in parts of the country today.
But you fail to grasp that is not moral – regardless of what the law might be.
If you do not understand that the law must be moral, that force can not be used at whim, then you justify the nazi’s and racists you claim you oppose.
I understand John’s morality, I just reject it, like most Americans.
Yes, I fully grasp that you believe you may morally use force against others to get what you want without justification.
Since when do you speak for the majority of Americans ?
“Do I think that wearing an N-95 or N-100 mask is oppressive when installing dry wall, handling certain chemicals, during woodworking, or during an infectious disease outbreak, NO!”
Have you notified Dr. Fauci about your findings?
@JD- This is from the New England Journal of Medicine. In layman’s terms, wearing a mask usually doesn’t make any difference. But if you are scared and it makes you feel better, then go for it:
‘We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.’
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372
So what’s going on with the newly released FBI documents from 2016-2017? The FBI knew that the Steele dossier was utter b*llsh*t. Yet they kept putting it in front of the secret FISA court to justify their illegal wiretaps, expanded the Russian collusion investigation, and appointed Mueller. It’s getting uglier by the day.
EDKH – Is this being covered by the Lamestream Media? I know Fox has picked it up and several Youtubers are rathy about it. It has been a hot topic on Twitter, although i think Twitter is suprressing it.
@PCS- They’re doing everything they can to bury it. The New York Times was up to their eyeballs in the original deception, but you’d never know from their coverage or the lack thereof. They say that they ‘stand by their reporting.’
EDKH – we got Fake New and we reported it, Now we will stand by it. NYTtimes
There is actually nothing new here – Horowitz covered this, and it has been reported in the media for years.
What is different now is we are seeing the actual documents rather than someone telling us what they say
Regardless they are damning.
This rips the foundations from under the Mueller investigation.
It makes it clear it was a witch hunt from the start and they knew it.
The FISA courts have already established that the last 2 FISA warrants never should have been granted.
What is more relevant here is WHY was an SC actually appointed ?
Horowitz found that the justification for the investigation died in mid jan 017. these documents are a significant part of why.
If Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Rosenstein KNEW all of this – and they did, then why was Mueller appointed ?
If Mueller KNEW all of this – and he did, why did the investigation continue ?
@John – is that a rhetorical question? They used a bogus investigation to de-legitimize the 2016 election and then dragged it out to win back the House in 2018. And they are going to get away with it.
There is no consensus among the real international scientific community (and by that I don’t mean the CDC, the FDA, the WHO, or those on the payroll of Gilead) that COVID is spread through “droplets” except in cases of extreme intimacy such as hospitals and families. For millennia, germs have been spread on the hands. The fact that COVID continues to spread, despite the high number of people in masks but almost uniformly with bare hands, may be an indirect indicator of this. If there were such a consensus, nobody would seriously believe that a dirty cotton bandana would be a real deterrent. Ergo, the people who say the mask mandates are about compliance would seem to be right. They are. They’re intended to pave the way for whatever the next mandate will be, presumably vaccines. I think a more interesting legal point here is whether people can be forced to wear masks at all from a constitutional perspective.
For millennia, germs have been spread on the hands
Allison, dear, have a gander at the super-spreader events. These have included indoor singing, indoor loud talk, confinement in spaces with HVAC systems, and chilled temperatures. Choir practice, large funerals, bus rides, restaurants, and meat packing plants.
At the same time we do not understand super spreading.
for every super spreader event there are hundreds of occurances of the same thing without consequences.
Hugging trees. that’s the secret to superspreaders.
Next on the list: frontal lobotomies. Works like a charm. All of the “science” agrees
Hugging a tree in Israel to beat the coronavirus blues
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/hugging-a-tree-in-israel-to-beat-the-coronavirus-blues/
Israel’s Nature and Parks Authority is encouraging people to hug a tree to overcome feelings of isolation.
After flattening a coronavirus infection curve in May, Israel has experienced a spike in cases over the past few weeks.
Can’t embrace friends and family these days? Hug a tree instead.
That is the message Israel’s Nature and Parks Authority is spreading on social media to try to help people overcome the sense of detachment that coronavirus social-distancing rules can bring.
“In this unpleasant corona period we recommend to people around the world to go out to nature, take a deep breath, hug a tree, express your love and get love,” Orit Steinfeld, the authority’s marketing director, said in Apollonia National Park.
At the park, about 15 km (nine miles) north of Tel Aviv, tree-huggers such as Barbara Grant heeded the advice during a tour arranged by the Authority.
But you forgot BLM/ANTIFA riots/protests….. the SUPER BOWL of super-spreader events? Or does that not fit your narrative?
“… nobody would seriously believe that a dirty cotton bandana would be a real deterrent.”
My cotton bandanas are washed after each use and ironed to make sure the Confederate Flag is prominent on one, and the BLM black fist is visible on the other. I’m AC/DC and I have learned to play with both teams
Well considering the mask are worthless…I see no reason why not. In the beginning until today…ANY type has been okay as long as it covered our mouth and nose. So I suppose NOW…ya’ll are going to say we need $100.00 ones and that will be each…and will only be able to get them direct from fauci or gates…
Our government is a farce. Our government are liars, thieves, murderers and plain laughing stock…and they make us americans who work hard and just try to live our lives decently and provide them with those deep pockets and linings inside their pockets so much so, we are being laughed at.I say BOYCOTT and vote these asses out. Term ALL of them and lower salaries and take benefits from them. And if they can’t or won’t show us they are from here…THEN THEY DO NOT GET TO REPRESENT US!!
Another thing it doesn’t mention is where the masks has to be placed specifically. While they are called “Face Masks”, there is no specific instructions in the mandatory order as to where the mask has to be on one’s person. I have seen masks attached to a person’s head. Is that legal based on the legal definition of wearing a mask. I’ve seen a couple wearing them backwards, as in the mask is on the back of the head the the straps are across the face. I also saw one attach to one’s arm. That was probably a dog show competitor as that’s where there number is placed so that the judges can see clearly the number of each exhibitor to record marks immediately.
Not that it will matter to anyone gasping for air while clutching their pearls.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-coronavirus-credibility-gap-11593645643
The Coronavirus Credibility Gap
Politicians and experts sow distrust with double standards on protests and dissembling about masks.
By Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD
The American public is fractured over policy responses to Covid-19. That rift is most visible in debates about masks and new rounds of shutdowns. Such disputes are common in a country as diverse and opinionated as America. But political leaders and health officials have sown distrust by politicizing the pandemic response.
Political leaders and health officials have often invoked “science” to justify decisions manifestly guided by their personal preferences. That costs them credibility. Restoring public confidence will require acknowledging their role in politicizing the pandemic, yielding to accommodations and sensible alternatives in the areas of greatest controversy, and focusing on the widely supported goal of not overwhelming hospitals, rather than less meaningful metrics such as increases in Covid-19 cases.
One of the earliest signs of politicization was the broad animus directed at protesters who objected to the lockdowns. In a country where liberty and free expression are as fundamental as air and water, it is remarkable how casually political leaders and health officials disparaged and banned their activities—and even targeted protesters for prosecution. Politics was also at play when New York Mayor Bill de Blasio ordered police in Brooklyn to break up a crowd of mourners who gathered for a Hasidic Jewish funeral, warning that their actions were “unacceptable” and threatening to arrest them.
Contrast this with the approach that many of the same political leaders and public-health experts took toward the protests catalyzed by George Floyd’s killing. These protesters were neither maligned nor targeted with fines and arrests based on social distancing or mask mandates. They were often joined in the streets by politicians such as Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy.
The double standard in treatment was political. All these public gatherings were led by people expressing sincerely held beliefs that they felt outweighed the risk of Covid-19 transmission. Protecting such expression, regardless of viewpoint, is fundamental to the integrity of a democracy. Instead, politicians played favorites with this core American tenet.
Medical experts have also lost the empathy that previously characterized their approach to public health. Many illnesses spread as a result of personal decisions and behavior. The contemporary consensus in the medical community has been to acknowledge—without judgment—that preferences and circumstances of individuals vary. This has been true even when individual decisions affect the health of others. This is why public-health experts advocate pre-exposure prophylaxis antiretrovirals for HIV prevention, needle-exchange programs for drug users, and, in the U.K., e-cigarettes for smoking cessation.
But this wisdom hasn’t been afforded to the Covid-19 pandemic. There is little accommodation for people who avoid masks because of difficulty breathing, claustrophobia or the belief that one’s face shouldn’t be subject to public policing. Some medical ethicists have suggested that if ventilators are in short supply, patients who religiously used masks and adhered to social distancing should receive priority—rationing medical care to punish noncompliance.
Further corroding public trust was health officials’ reversal about wearing masks. In February, they discouraged their use and told the public there was no evidence they were effective. Yet when questioned by Rep. David McKinley (R., W.Va.) on June 23, Anthony Fauci claimed the initial guidance was motivated by concerns about medical supply shortages—not doubts about mask effectiveness. No wonder many Americans don’t trust the calls to wear masks.
If political leaders and health experts want to restore their credibility and the public’s confidence, they need to begin by acknowledging that politics rather than science has influenced important public-health decisions and by making accommodations for dissenting perspectives. Alternatives to masks, for instance, include physical distancing and using face shields while indoors.
And while there is more to learn about immunity, there has not been a single confirmed case of reinfection among the 10 million cases of Covid-19 world-wide, according to a May report in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Until the data say otherwise, people who have recovered from Covid-19 should be exempt from restrictions.
The most important step political leaders and health officials can take is to base their decisions on hospital capacity, rather than case counts, which inevitably will continue to increase among low-risk young people. Policing of social distance and restrictions on personal, educational and business activities are fueling culture wars. Focusing on the goal of not overwhelming hospitals is sensible and less vulnerable to politicization—so long as the data are publicly available for independent analysis. Hospitals often run near capacity to maximize profits, so the promises made during shutdowns to increase capacity need to be fulfilled—or capacity will become a political weapon.
Since citizens are already opting out of high-risk activities they want to avoid, let them enter bars, enjoy the beach, exercise at the gym, and learn in school if they choose. The government should intervene with mandates and closures only if regional hospital capacity requires it, while being transparent about bed availability, illness severity of hospitalized patients, and efforts to increase treatment capacity, including the supply of promising medications such as remdesivir and dexamethasone.
These steps would make the struggle against Covid-19 more sustainable and less politicized. Less petty squabbling and wasting of resources would mean more attention for strategies to protect the most vulnerable Americans.
Dr. Ladapo is an associate professor at UCLA’s David Geffen School of Medicine.
Perhaps the Boston Tea Party?
Masked federal body snatchers are out & about in Portland, Or. Arresting masked gang bangers dressed in black SWAT fatigues. Protesters say that’s not fair.
People need helmets.
Haha. Have you seen the photos of people out riding motorcycles….without helmets….without long pants…ie wearing shorts….BUT!!….they are wearing a mask! OMG people this is how the Holocaust happened….think for yourselves you sheeple…..
Anonymous………….the Jews put on masks and rode motorcycles to the Camps? Haven’t heard that version.
Cindy,
True, that’s not how the Holocaust happened. But, authoritarianism creeps in as people comply with small, seemingly innocuous or seemingly reasonable infringements.
Prairie…..oh, I know….I was joking….The mask is not that big a deal because Trump, our leader, has not made it so.
I’m much more concerned about the Nazis at NPR telling us which books we should remove from our personal libraries!!
Prairie…….I am furious with NPR and sent a scathing letter to management calling them Nazis and asking why they don’t just cut to the chase and tell us to burn any Jews books we might have!
It was the intellectual, NPR types that the Nazis incrementally pulled into their web ……. and what people read was a big part of it.
Everyone thinks whatever NPR dictates must be fine, right?
It’s scary and dangerous!
Cindy Bragg – why are you still listening to NPR. except for their music?
Paul……not no, but hell no☺ I have not listened to NPR in almost 20 years….but the Left does….and members of my extended family who swear by everything they hear on there.
Cindy Bragg – we have 2 NPR stations here, one plays jazz at night, the other is classical 24/7
Paul C………Believe it or not, Austin has always had ( for 50 years) a separate 24 hr classical music station…….KMFA
KUT fm is the public radio station…….and yes, has great jazz at night sometimes.
Also, OT …..on a recent Drive ins, Diners and Dives episode, they visited a great place in Phoenix that serves Chinese and Mexican food…Chino and Bandito’s.
Cindy Bragg – Chino Bandito’s is so far north it is practically in Sedona.
Paul I read an article on Whatfinger about NPR’s June 6 program by Juan Vidal, entitled something like “Maybe Your Bookshelf is the Problem”…..
In the first sentence it said “if you’re white……”
Cindy Bragg – when somebody starts a sentence like that, I ignore the rest of what they say.
Cindy Bragg – if you go to the Holocaust Museum and ask very nicely, they will show you the pictures of the Jews on motorbikes heading towards the concentration and death camps. You should see the big smiles on their faces. 😉
LOL Paul……I’m sure it was quite “the trip” 😊
Cindy Bragg – well, the trips had surprise endings. 😉
Paul C…..did you know Jared Kushner’s paternal grandparents met as teenagers in one of the camps?
There ia a Hebrew school in Jersey named for each of them. I just love that story!
I think that you have two problems with this. 1. Mask is largely placebo. There are countless other ways to get the virus.
2. People don’t respect the ‘law’ or ordinances or executive orders on wearing a mask. So they don’t wear it or to avoid a conflict, they wear a joke mask. There are all sorts of novelty, fancy or interesting masks that you can get.
This is probably an aspect of the law that Jon doesn’t get. There is not enough of an enforcement mechanism to enforce the law in general or any specific law, the law largely requires deterrence. If a significant or large portion of the population decide they aren’t going to follow the law or a law, then there is nothing that police officers, legislators, judges or the government can do. It’s a matter of math more than anything, there are far more people than those who are in the legal industry.
Those who make and enforce the law would be wise to make sure that it is legitimate, consensual(we vote in the legislators who pass the law and budget officers who enforce it) and is taken seriously. The problem is today so many ‘laws’ are not taken seriously or there is clearly a double standard. Depending on who you are, your color(i.e black people) or whatever the ideology of the person enforcing the law is, you may or may not be in violation of the law regardless if you actually violated it or not.
I think that you have two problems with this. 1. Mask is largely placebo. There are countless other ways to get the virus.
There are several ways you could theoretically transmit it, not countless ways. The practical way is through droplets and possibly smaller airborne particles, possibly recycled through HVAC systems. Other cases are outliers.
Hi Jerry. Not a bad post. The problem is your handle “Jerry”. Get another handle dude.
I have a cat who wears a mask. I buy them at a store called Puss Face.