Thirty years after the late D.C. Mayor Marion Barry’s famous statement, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi declared that a Salon owner set her up in an embarrassing incident where Pelosi was shown not just violating San Francisco’s pandemic laws in getting her hair done but not wearing a mask while doing it. Pelosi refused to take responsibility for the violation (including the failure to wear a mask) and, in the tape below, only took responsibility to “failing for a set up.” She added “I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up.” The Salon owner, Erica Kious, has stated that she expects to close eSalon after receiving a torrent of death threats and hostile massages after Pelosi’s allegation. The question is whether she could actually sue for defamation.
Speaker Pelosi has previously used the eSalon, according to Kious, and was shown below on Monday getting her hair down despite a ban on salons for such appointments.
While not addressing her failure to wear a mask, Pelosi publicly attacked the Salon.
Pelosi’s lawyer Matthew Soleimanpour further made damaging statements about Kious: “The fact that Ms. Kious is now objecting to Speaker Pelosi’s presence at eSalon, and from a simple surface-level review of Ms. Kious’ political leanings, it appears Ms. Kious is furthering a set-up of Speaker Pelosi for her own vain aspirations.”
Carla Marinucci, a senior Politico reporter covering California, made her own veiled allegation in suggesting that the tape itself might be illegal: “Have to ask upon seeing this: Is it legal in CA — a ‘two party consent’ state — to videotape someone in a private home or business without their consent?” That reference to the politics of the owner further suggests an improper political hit job.
Marinucci’s question is not defamatory, though it is curious that the focus was on the legality of having the security camera footage as opposed to Pelosi’s conduct.
The incident was reminiscent of Chicago’s mayor, Lori Lightfoot, getting a haircut after warning Chicagoans that they cannot go to barbers or salons in a mocking tone. For Pelosi, the incident was particularly embarrassing after just blasting President Donald Trump for setting a “bad example”in allowing people to gather for his nomination acceptance speech without masks or social distancing. Pelosi was also previously criticized when the pandemic was unfolding for calling people to Chinatown in San Francisco to demonstrate.
In this case, Pelosi is suggesting that she might have been defamed or shown in a false light by being set up while Kious could claim to have been defamed due to the allegation of a politically motivate set up. In liberal San Francisco, such an allegation is particularly deadly for a business. A hair cut is certainly not in the league of using crack with Marion Barry. Yet, in San Francisco it may be worse to be accused of enabling a Republican attack on Nancy Pelosi than enabling a crack session with her.
Kious is likely a public figure under Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 418 U.S. 323, 352 (1974) and its progeny of cases. The Supreme Court has held that public figure status applies when someone “thrust[s] himself into the vortex of [the] public issue [and] engage[s] the public’s attention in an attempt to influence its outcome.” A limited-purpose public figure status applies if someone voluntarily “draw[s] attention to himself” or allows himself to become part of a controversy “as a fulcrum to create public discussion.” Wolston v. Reader’s Digest Association, 443 U.S. 157, 168 (1979). Her status as a salon owner alone would not trigger this status but her releasing the video and doing an interview on Fox would make her a public figure of limited public figure.
Pelosi is obviously a public figure. Indeed, arguably the third highest public official in the United States as third in line for the presidency.
The standard for defamation for public figures and officials in the United States is the product of a decision decades ago in New York Times v. Sullivan. Ironically, this is precisely the environment in which the opinion was written and he is precisely the type of plaintiff that the opinion was meant to deter. The Supreme Court ruled that tort law could not be used to overcome First Amendment protections for free speech or the free press. The Court sought to create “breathing space” for the media by articulating that standard that now applies to both public officials and public figures. In order to prevail, West must show either actual knowledge of its falsity or a reckless disregard of the truth. The standard for defamation for public figures and officials in the United States is the product of a decision decades ago in New York Times v. Sullivan. The Supreme Court ruled that tort law could not be used to overcome First Amendment protections for free speech or the free press. The Court sought to create “breathing space” by articulating that standard that now applies to both public officials and public figures.
California recognizes categories of per se defamation including alleging (1) a criminal offense; (2) a loathsome disease; (3) matter incompatible with his or her business, trade, profession, or office; or (4) serious sexual misconduct. See Cal. Civ. Code § 45a; Yow v. National Enquirer, Inc. 550 F.Supp.2d 1179, 1183 (E.D. Cal. 2008).
In the very least, Kious has been accused of a matter “incompatible with business, trade, profession, or office. Pelosi has also been accused for such misconduct. (I am going leave the suggestion of criminality in one-party taping as meritless since this is a business where security cameras are usually posted and obvious).
For Kious, “truth is a defense.” While Pelosi said she was set up, she was in violation of San Francisco’s law and did fail to wear a mask.
For Pelosi, it gets tougher. Her comments allegedly triggered threats and contributed or caused the likely closure of the salon. The hair stylist Jonathan DeNardohas insisted that the owner knew about the appointment. Kious said that she learned about it after it was set up.
Truth again can be defense but, unlike the Pelosi allegation of violating local laws on getting an indoor haircut and not wearing a mark (which is clearly true), this would be a matter for a jury. It is ultimately a question of motivation.
The fact is that it could be presented as a viable defamation claim but, because of her status as a public figure, it would be difficult under the higher standard. Complication this more is the heavy layer of political opinion during an election season. Thus, my view is that a defamation claim is viable but challenging.
@Jonathan Turley
Pelosi should have retired years ago. That said, the things that you post on your blog have come to define you — and not in a good way.
There are three people in the video. Only one is not wearing a mask.
Nanzi Pelosi was not suckered into not wearing a mask by an elaborate setup. No, the only plausible explanation is that this was the work of a cabal of hair-styling wizard aliens who hypnotized her into abandoning her dearly cherished principles.
Either that or she is a flaming self-involved hypocrite.
Questions that aren’t addressed anywhere in article or comments; 1: who made the appointment (it sure wasn’t the Speaker), 2: who accepted the appointment, per the salon owner it was the stylist, 3: whom ever made or accepted the appointment do they live in SF and if they do they should have know the guidelines, and if didn’t live there they should have asked the question. Ignorance is not an excuse under the law.
Nancy Pelosi channels through Phyllis Diller. Hair, makeup, plastic surgery & vitamins.
This is a woman who is extremely conscious of her looks.
You never see her if she doesnt look almost like royalty. Color coordinated everything. Hair never out of place, makeup like someone is paid daily to make her look no where near her 80 years of age.
Since the Covid issue, her neck gaiter face masks are color coordinated with her clothing. She even uses patterned cloth that is color coordinated. Very aware of her image.
So looking at this video, tell me she is not going to have a hemorrhage when this old woman appears in the video in a bath robe and walks through that doorway looking all her 80 yrs. Next to queen Elizabeth, I doubt there are many women in the elite society that are any more aware of image than Pelosi.
I’m not sure I would want to be the hair salon owner that released this video being that her nephew is governor of California. With the democrat courts and most all government officials in CA being a democrat, anyone that makes Pelosi look bad is going to have a hard time winning any legal issue. And this salon owners probably has few resources to appeal any decisions.
Yeah, if only our Speaker was as natural and un-self conscious as our President.
I just have so much respect for adults that defend poor actions by using poor actions of others as a defense.
Kind of like children defending their actions by sayng ” well he did it”
What about whataboutisms?
Say what? I have no idea what you are asking.
Former Governor Jerry Brown scolded Californians to keep thermostats at 78 during Democrat caused power blackouts.
I bet his home and Pelosi’s home and office are nice and frosty. AC for the elites only you peasants.
Despicable but typical how leftists on this site are rushing to deflect attention from or to excuse Pelosi’s contemptible conduct.
Yeah, well maskless Trump has himself and everyone who comes in contact with him tested everyday for Covid.
Why can’t do that?
PS, unlike Young’s claim, mine is not speculation but fact.
It was speculation [hence ‘I bet’] that Brown and Pelosi and Newsom and Gavin keep their homes and offices comfortable while telling others to sweat, but you know it is likely to be true give the host of other infractions they have committed.
So, you were just kidding about caring about double standards for the powerful?
Young, what power blackouts are you referring to ‘under Jerry Brown’????? I don’t remember any. I think you’re just making that up.
The state is suffering costly blackouts that even have the governor doubting their sustainability policies. The blackouts, water shortages and fires are directly linked to programs pushed by Brown despite being warned they would lead to this predicament.
Young, we notice you have NO sources to substantiate these bogus claims.
I don’t think I have an obligation to put on my MAGA hat and lead an Anonymous to readily available sources.
That would send me into hot flashes, Young, and you know how I feel about older men role playing with me
Blackouts in the failing state of Democrat-run California have forced Governor Gavin Newsom to admit green every is falling short.
“Newsom says the transition away from fossil fuels has left California with a gap in the reliability of its energy system. He says the state must examine its reliance on solar power and how that fits into its broader energy portfolio,” reports the San Francisco Chronicle’s Alexei Koseff.
“Today we are anticipating substantially greater need for energy,” Newsom said at a Monday press conference. Per Koseff, he added that this greater need is “about 4,400 megawatts short of what the state needs. That’s a ten times greater shortfall than Saturday. ”
“We failed to predict and plan these shortages and that’s simply unacceptable,”
“Young, we notice you have NO sources to substantiate these bogus claims.”
PaintChips, we notice you are an idiot.
Some people are dreading a civil war while others are still worked up about Nancy’s fancy ice cream. This comment section never fails to entertain.
What a ridiculous excuse! I was set up! OK, so Bob is driving 95mph on I-20 and a State Trooper is hiding behind a bush and clocks him. Was Bob set up??? Nope. Bob was speeding. OK, sooo Chuck Schumer meets a hot chick, Natasha, at a hotel bar, and later he sneaks up to her room, by mutual agreement. While she is spanking him (wearing a Nancy Pelosi wig), Boris hops out of the closet and starts snapping photos. Was Chuck set up??? Nope, Chuck went there of his own free will.
Same with Nancy. She went there when she knew she wasn’t supposed to be going there, and to holler “I wuz set up” is disingenuous. Nobody drug the old shrew there. She went of her own free will.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky, are you an “old shrew”? Why do you refer to yourself as a “girl,” when you’re (presumably) no longer a girl? Do you have a hard time dealing with aging? We live in a sexist society, so a lot of women do have a hard time with it, but you don’t have to succumb to it. You can choose not to bolster sexist and ageist responses to women. Do you also agree with George that women shouldn’t have the right to vote?
For the record, Pelosi’s staff have stated that Pelosi was misinformed about recent changes to the law, in which case your claim that “she knew she wasn’t supposed to be going there” is false. You claim to be good at research. You can look this up or read the comment I made about it with relevant quotes earlier.
Commit– “Pelosi’s staff have stated that Pelosi was misinformed about recent changes to the law, ”
*****
Why trust people paid to lie?
Who said that I trust them? How do you determine who is paid to lie? (Is Barr paid to lie? Is McEnany paid to lie? …)
As I noted earlier:
“Now, the house speaker’s hair stylist is backing her claim and says the salon owner did indeed set the whole thing up. Through his lawyer, Jonathan Denardo says e-salon owner Erica Kious approved the appointment and during a conversation over the phone Denardo says Kious made several comments criticizing the House Speaker. The stylist’s lawyer says Kious had been violating the health order for months before the House Speaker’s visit and says, ‘It appears Ms. Kious is furthering a set-up of speaker Pelosi for her own vain aspirations.’”
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/09/02/pelosi-san-francisco-salon-visit-controversy-clearly-a-set-up/
If it becomes a court case, then they can all be questioned under oath.
I’d be totally happy for them all to be questioned under oath. Don’t you agree?
“Kious told Fox News that stylists in her salon are independent and rent chairs, and that it was one of her independent stylists who told Kious that she was planning to do Pelosi’s hair on Monday. ‘I was like, are you kidding me right now? Do I let this happen? What do I do?’ Kious told Fox News, while noting that she ‘can’t control’ what her stylists do if they rent chairs from her, as ‘they’re not paying’ at this time.”
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/politics/nancy-pelosi-hair-salon/index.html
So Kious could have informed the stylist that it wasn’t allowed, and the appointment could have been cancelled or moved to Pelosi’s home. Why didn’t Kious do that? Seems to me that if the stylist isn’t paying Kious, the stylist has no right to use the salon without permission.
Pelosi is a sanctimonious, hypocritical, mean spirited pig and couldn’t give a da.mn about working people. She can eat her specialty ice cream out of her $20,000 refrigerator freezer while the working taxpayer loses their business without even thinking. Combined with Omar and Maxine they describe the democrat party perfectly.
@CommitToHonestDiscussion If the “little people” are expected to know and comply with COVID-19 rules, surely the legislator representing that district should know them, too. It’s really quite easy: you read a newspaper or news site. I knew exactly when salons would be reopening in my state and the conditions that had to be met to patronize them. One of two things happened: either Pelosi didn’t know that salons were still closed for indoor work or she knew and made an appointment anyway. Let’s be clear. She or her staff reached out to the stylist for an appointment, not the other way around. Therefore, calling this incident a setup is ludicrous.
@javafiend:
Personally, I doubt that Pelosi makes her own appointments.
So let’s assume that a staff member contacted the stylist for an appt.
Did the stylist know, and if so, did the stylist inform the staff member?
The stylist claims to have informed the owner ahead of time. The owner confirms knowing ahead of time. Did the owner know? Why did the owner allow it (since it’s illegal) and then complain publicly? THAT part of it absolutely sounds like a set-up: if you know it’s illegal, then refuse to allow the stylist to use the property for an illegal act, and tell the stylist to make sure that the client is informed.
In other words the democrat leader of the house doesn’t have the brains to handle minor things and has to depend on low paid staff members to tell her the difference between right and wrong.
Needs to be Committed is probably the original child that made up the excuse, ‘the dog ate my homework’.
Allen, it is not that she does not have the brains to do that, it is beneath her to stoop so low to make appointments for herself. That is for her subjects to do for her. When you view yourself as a queen, you would never do anything a lowly administrative assistant would do.
Ron,
No doubt you also complain about Trump viewing himself as a king for having an assistant make appointments for him.
Personally, I assume that wealthy and/or powerful people generally have admin. assts. who make their appointments, buy their plane tickets, etc.
I have no problem with anyone having an assistant make appointments for them for anything business related. And Trump is the president and on duty 24/7/365 with times allocated by the chief of staff, so anything personal has to be scheduled to not conflict with government business. Also, all of the hair stuff and other personal stuff is handled within the White House.
Nancy Pelosi is not on duty 24/7/365. She may be on call, but that does not conflict with appointments for personal matters.She was home in San Francisco, not working, although she can claim to be.
And yes, I have problems with power expecting others to do lowly work when one is capable of doing it themselves. I was a finance director at a large health care system for 35 years and had a secretary. I never asked her to make any doctor, dental, hair, car repair, banking or any appointments ever for me if it was not business related. And I have little respect for anyone that expects that from employees paid to do a job for a employer, not personal business for the boss. If I had an appointment, I would tell her so she culd block that out on the calendar and not double book. Today, with electronic calendars, that communication is not even required, but I wonder if the Queen even knows how to enter an appointment.
call this stupid if you wish. Just the way I view employer/employee relationship.
That too.
Commit — I doubt that Pelosi makes her own appointments.
******
So? Do you think she doesn’t ask someone to make the appointment?
She twice broke the law in this single instance: going to an appointment when her relative, the governor, ordered shops closed and by failing to wear a mask in a closed, uncontrolled environment.
She is reptilian for blaming everyone but herself for her offenses.
The salon owner was mad about the mask. She does not control the stylists, she rents chairs to them.
Interesting that Commit quickly fell into sexism, ageism, looksism and the like while attempting to undermine Squeeky.
Is this the type of cool, objective argument that you claim for Commit, Book?
Commit and Book quickly lie and distort and when that doesn’t serve they resort to the type of personal attack Commit just demonstrated.
“Interesting that Commit quickly fell into sexism, ageism, looksism and the like while attempting to undermine Squeeky.”
On the contrary, Squeeky’s the one who did that when she called Pelosi an “old shrew,” and I called Squeeky out on it. If you object to it, then criticize Squeeky.
“Commit and Book quickly lie and distort”
Yet you don’t quote any lie or distortion.
“when that doesn’t serve they resort to the type of personal attack Commit just demonstrated.”
ROFL. You and Squeeky and Allan and Mespo and … all post personal attacks; let me know if you need some quotes as examples. If you object to it, then don’t do it yourself. But if you’re going to do it, then don’t be a hypocrite and complain when others respond in kind.
So do you stand by your statement that the Duke Lacrosse players were not declared innocent?
Again, Young, you claimed “Commit and Book quickly lie and distort”
Yet you still haven’t quoted any lie or distortion.
What are you waiting for?
Was that true? What you said about the players’ case?
You’re the one who claimed “Commit and Book quickly lie and distort,” and you’re the one with the burden of proof for it. So far, you haven’t met your burden.
You ask “Was that true? What you said about the players’ case?,” but you’ve yet to clarify the referent of “that”/”what you said.” Go ahead: quote what you’re referring to.
You said that the Lacrosse players and Zimmerman were only found not guilty rather than innocent. I said that was true with respect to Zimmerman but not the Lacrosse players who were in fact declared innocent by the AG.
a) You’re still not quoting. You’re not a stupid person. You understand what “quote” means.
b) Since you’re not stupid, I bet you also understand the difference between lying and being mistaken.
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claim “Commit and Book quickly lie and distort” After all, if we’re quick to do what you claim, there should be oodles of examples. In fact, you should be able to quote more than one example from each of us from this page alone.
Javafiend — “It’s really quite easy (to know the rules): you read a newspaper or news site.”
Or in Pelosi’s case she could ask her relative, Governor Newsom, who makes the rules.
this talk of being setup is poor form. it was she who endangered a small business with her vanity. the small business is struggling under her rules. she has zero penalty for violating rules other than a little embarrassment.
this reminds me of some comments of prominent Democrat apologists for Bill Clinton who suggested Monica “set up him” by providing fellatio. Really! I remember it at the time. Sad, pathetic how they use the little people, then blame them if there is an embarrassment.,
That’s about how big Democrat donor and RAPIST Jack Weinstein used to play it too. Aggressively come on to budding talent, show his fat naked body and distorted member, then if the starlet was not interested push her harder, then if she maintained her refusal, smear her, blacklist her, imply that she was trying to set him up. This song and dance is almost a Democrat specialty. Because, if a Republican ever does anything like this, man they throw the book at him in the press. Because they got the press in their pocket.
Here we just see a little embarrassment for Nancy and it’s curtly dismissed by her arrogant hand gestures.
Kurtz, Nancy doesn’t make the rules for the City of SF, nor does she probably follow them very closely. This one changed on Friday before the weekend when she went there and according to her, was told it was OK by the hairdresser. Do you know that’s untrue? Why do we GAF except the desperation of a your boy’s campaign, you know the guy who pretended to be in charge of federal guidelines which promoted masks and social distancing which he then ignored ever since and actually encouraged protests against state governments which implemented his guidelines?
I don’t really care about this Nancy incident. Her remarks about it being a setup were stupid but I don’t begrude her getting a haircut, even an illegal one.
I am pretty sure that she knew they were supposed to be closed like all the other Californians do. I do have some friends and family in California. The restrictions are not SF specific they are statewide.
If I was the editor I would have thrown this story in the garbage as inconsequential. But that’s not my job and nobody would want me for it either.
I hope Nasty Pelosi gets slammed for her actions. But I also wonder why the salon accepted her request for appointment? How did the video become public? But even if there was an effort to make Nasty look bad, it seems that the socialist/marxists/democrats are all about doing that to Trump and others, so a bit of turn about seems only fair play, at least in the new no-holds-barred non-ethics of our coming civil war.
In California and several other “blue states” at this time– a lot of “personal services” type businesses are operating covertly. Typical for hair salons, nail spas, massage facilities. They need the money, they need the tips, they operate covertly. The government looks the other way, because we all understand the restrictions are excessive in the first place.
How the tape got leaked, not clear yet. Maybe doesnt really matter, this is a trifle either way.
Constitutionally speaking, the owner or resident can film their own property or point a camera onto public property. A person physically standing on public property can photograph anything, public or private or a government building. If a person steps onto private property, not owned by them, and is a peeping Tom looking in the window, that is illegal. Or photographing while standing on another’s property is illegal.
There is an ongoing debate on new drone delivery laws when compared to helicopters – drones are nearly invisible and much quieter than helicopters, so some states have also included a “horizontal-plane” and capped the height above your backyard that drones can photograph your property. A test was done years ago where drones flew a few feet outside residential condominiums in large cities looking in every window at night, although technically on public property photographing private homes. Today there is a question if a drone delivery device can share information with police and government agencies, without a judicial warrant, when the drone crosses from public property into private property.
All people are equal, but some people are more equal than others—–George Orwell….Animal Farm ( people replaced animals….in the story, pigs were the animals in question)
There are two things that as someone who lives in CA knows. This state is basically on lockdown. The beauty shops were opened about three weeks and then he shut them down about 6 or 8 weeks ago. That shutdown has caused havoc in this state. People are very upset and closing businessses for good. The gov reaction is cut hair outside. The salon owner was interviewed last night. She did not know about it and she said she is ruined and will not reopen. Pelosi lied because the 2nd closing of beauty shops is such huge story that if she didnt know she should not be in Congress. Did we pay for her flight too?
Do as I say, not as I do.
Nancy always has your interest at heart.
I’d like to try some of that high priced ice cream she serves up.
Fancy Nancy says: What’s mine is yours, is yours is mine
Using this logic, wouldn’t it be illegal to videotape inside a bank, convenience store, department store, guy delivering packages to your house, etc? Illegal to have any hidden cameras inside businesses? Many states make “areas with a reasonable expectation of privacy” illegal for cameras (restrooms, dressing rooms, etc) but non-private areas (low chance of viewing nudity basically) are legal to record.
It’s already understood that Turley knows he has to keep his Trump cult in the bubble, but he’s jumping the shark almost everyday now. Love to read what Turley thinks about what his hero Bill Barr said yesterday on CNN. But we get it Turley ya got to keep the bubble going to stir up Trump’s base and now your own.
Fish– The Democrats are doing a superb job of stirring up Trump’s base. I feel thoroughly stirred. No help from Turley required.
On the other hand, you help with the stirring, reminding us of the lunacy threatening the country
Are you going to vote in person and mail like your Dear Leader said?
” ‘It is illegal to vote twice in an election,’ said Karen Brinson Bell, executive director of the North Carolina State Board of Elections. Bell said state law made it a ‘Class I felony’ for a voter, ‘with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time … in the same primary or election.’ ‘Attempting to vote twice in an election or soliciting someone to do so also is a violation of North Carolina law,’ Brinson Bell added.” (quoting a USA Today story)
Did Trump violate the law by soliciting people to vote twice?
And why was Barr’s response “I don’t know what the law in the particular state says” when Wolf Blitzer noted that it’s illegal to attempt to vote twice (video here: https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1301299333938151424)?
His statement may be true (he doesn’t know what the law in NC says), but he should know that there is no state where it’s legal to vote twice. Is Barr trying to look ignorant? Or is this just his attempt to refrain from pointing out that Trump was encouraging people to break the law?
This lunacy — Trump encouraging people to attempt to break the law in order to test the voting system, and Barr refusing to condemn it or even note that it’s illegal throughout the U.S. — is much greater “lunacy.” Trump is a sick, sick person, and Barr is one of his enablers. McConnell is another; the 2019 voting rights act — H.R. 1 — has been sitting on McConnell’s desk for the better part of a year, and he refuses to bring it up for a vote.
Are you going to take Trump’s advice Young? Do you think it’s healthy for the President to be encouraging people to break the law?
Even more relevant: Cuomo killed thousands by sending virus infected bodies into nursing homes.
I’ll be sure not to vote for Cuomo in November, whether that’s true or not.
I hope you hold to that if you are on the jury for his murder trial.
Oh, look, you’re unwilling to discuss Trump encouraging people to break the law, and Barr refusing to state that it’s illegal. I wonder why. /s
I’m aware of the order issued by Cuomo on March 25 through May 10. But I’m not sure what analysis has been done to determine the # of nursing home deaths linked to the order vs. from other causes (e.g., via asymptomatic workers).
I look forward to you presenting evidence for your claim that “Cuomo killed thousands by sending virus infected bodies into nursing homes.” You are going to present evidence, right?
Presumably you’ll also want to determine how many people nationally died as a result of Trump’s actions and failure to act. If Trump killed thousands, you’ll be just as concerned, right?
Commit:
That’s the ‘real’ hypocrisy Turley is trying to counter-program with this lame ‘What About’ of a column.
After weeks of hysterically warning that ‘Democrats are going to rig the election’, Trump actually tells North Carolina Republicans to vote twice! But instead of addressing that, Turley focuses on a non-story where Pelosi is walking with wet hair before putting her mask back on.
I read his entire comment and the context as always matters. 1. He’s addressing concerns about the solicited and unsolicited mail-in voting process. 2. There are legitimate concerns that those casting mail-in votes won’t have their votes counted. 3. One way to be certain the mail-in vote was recorded, is to show up on election day and try to vote. A secure system wouldn’t permit that and the citizen would get immediate feedback that their mail-in ballot was recorded. 4. What he’s done is painted the mail-in voting supporters in a corner over the possibility of election fraud. If as they claim, there is no possibility for fraud, then voting twice is a non-starter. The outrage however proves the Democrats know their mail-in voting scam is now exposed and they are trying once again to paint themselves out of the corner.
Olly– Thanks. Somebody needed to correct Commit’s lies.
Thanks Young. I love that President Trump is willing to say what average Americans think.
Me too!
Why “lie” are you referring to, Young? (You don’t quote any lie. Perhaps you can’t, and so prefer to handwave.)
A president hwo was leader would not be trying to undermine confidence in our voting but would be offering states help in dealing with it under a new and unique circumstance. The obvious conclusion is that like evreything he does, he’s out for himself and not the nation and if tearing down confidence in our democracy is the price, no problem. The guy is sickening and your failure to see it truly disturbing.
By the way Olly, “the average American” hates his guts.
Wow! Thanks for that projection. Democrats have done everything imaginable to undermine any confidence our citizens may have in our government institutions. At a time when we need absolute confidence that every vote is legitimate and counted, we’re presented with a less secure option. Election fraud has always existed, but at least at one time it was rare and relatively inconsequential. But Democrats have taken the Roe v Wade approach to election insecurity. Whether it’s their opposition to Voter ID and regular purging of the voter rolls, or their support for ballot harvesting, Democrats are going all in on a scheme that will abort any confidence in the outcome of the next election.
That one statement you criticize might do more to protect the voting system than anything done by democrats for years.
“By the way Olly, “the average American” hates his guts.”
Correction btb, ‘the average American’ dumb elitist democrat hate his guts and wish their fellow democrats were as effective as he is.
It’s a silly comment by Book. There are millions of average Americans that love what this President is doing. Remember, roughly 15-25% of the colonists were loyalists to Great Britain. 40-55% were patriots to the cause and the rest were undecided. My bet is that the Republicans have the same percentage of patriots and the Democrats have the same percentage of loyalists. It’s the Independents, those undecided that will sway this election. Well that and voter fraud. I believe the Independents are far more rational in their choices and will vote on the same core issues of liberty, security and financial prosperity that they’ve always done. Independents are not going to be fooled by rhetoric on these issues.
The majority of Americans disapprove of the job Trump is doing, and have done so for all but a few days of his presidency:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo
I doubt that everyone who disapproves hates his guts, though.
The majority of Americans responding to this poll disapprove of the job Trump is doing.
Gosh, what a shocker that is. I’ll bet they believe CNN is the most trusted name in news and the NYT is the paper of record.
Yawn.
“The majority of Americans responding to this poll …”
If you’d bothered to look at the page I cited, Olly, you’d know that their results include all scientific polls they can find. See if you can identify a poll that you’ve looked at and that they didn’t include.
To read more about their tracking methods:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-were-tracking-donald-trumps-approval-ratings/
But if you couldn’t even bother to look at the graph with the projected range for 90% of the combined polling results, I doubt you’ll read about the details. Feel free to remain ignorant.
“I’ll bet they believe CNN is the most trusted name in news and the NYT is the paper of record.”
Thanks for further demonstrating that you’d rather rely on your assumptions than actually look at the site.
Good comment Olly. This is why people on the right shouldn’t be hypercritical of Things Trump says that they disagree with. Often it is to highlight a problem and he did that here, but he has to make the statement slightly obscure for a ‘full court’ Press.
“One way to be certain the mail-in vote was recorded, is to show up on election day and try to vote. A secure system wouldn’t permit that and the citizen would get immediate feedback that their mail-in ballot was recorded.”
a) There’s no guarantee that a mail-in vote is counted before Election Day. Normally, it only has to either be postmarked or arrive by Election Day (depending on the state) and may not be counted til later.
b) If a mail-in vote *is* counted in NC, and the person then attempts to vote, that person has broken the law.
“What he’s done is painted the mail-in voting supporters in a corner over the possibility of election fraud.”
Donald Trump voted by mail. That makes him a mail-in voting supporter. Is he painting himself into a corner? Should he try to vote in person now to test his proposal? As it is, he could have been fined for improperly filling out his absentee ballot request in FL (he originally falsely stated his FL home address as 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., DC), and even now, he listed a home address that’s supposed to be exclusively a business: Mar-a-Lago.
Melania Trump voted by mail. That makes her a mail-in voting supporter.
Mike Pence voted by mail. That makes him a mail-in voting supporter.
Kayleigh McEnanany voted by mail. That makes her a mail-in voting supporter.
…
There are a whole slew of Republicans who vote by mail. In fact, many state GOP offices encourage people to vote by mail. That makes them mail-in voting supporters. No doubt you believe that Trump has painted the GOP into a corner too. /s
Sorry, I should have said “b) If a person does submit a mail-in vote in NC” instead of “If a mail-in vote *is* counted in NC”
You’ve identified instances of absentee voting, which is a form of mail-in voting, but restricted to those applying for the ballot due to specific circumstances. The mail-in voting controversy is not about that process. Now many states are accepting requests for ballots without the underlying specific circumstances and even worse, ballots are being mailed out without formal requests. You’d have to be a special kind of stupid to believe this is not a recipe for fraud.
Actually, Olly, the form Trump and Melania and McEnany filled out in Florida was a vote-by-mail form, not an absentee ballot form, as Florida doesn’t distinguish between the two: https://dos.myflorida.com/elections/for-voters/voting/vote-by-mail/
And this effort by the PA GOP to encourage Republican voters to vote by mail isn’t about absentee ballots either: https://www.mediaite.com/election-2020/gop-pushing-pa-voters-to-protect-yourself-from-large-crowds-by-requesting-mail-in-ballotswhich-trump-just-falsely-blasted-as-ripe-for-fraud/
So don’t pretend that I’m talking about absentee voting, when many states don’t make that distinction.
As for fraud, have you read about the ways that the states protect against vote-by-mail fraud? If not, given that this concerns you, when haven’t you read about it? You do know that “The Trump campaign’s 524-page response to a discovery demand turned up precisely zero instances of mail-in voter fraud,” right? (Quoting The Intercept, but confirmed elsewhere, such as the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette).
Personally, I’m much more concerned about voter suppression than I am about voter fraud, as the former seems a lot more common.
“Actually, Olly, the form Trump and Melania and McEnany filled out in Florida was a vote-by-mail form, not an absentee ballot form, as Florida doesn’t distinguish between the two: https://dos.myflorida.com/elections/for-voters/voting/vote-by-mail/”
Let’s not get confused again. A mail in ballot which elsewhere can be called an absentee ballot has to be requested and certain information provided to be checked. It is not the mail in ballot where the government automatically mails ballots to everyone including people not registered, illegals, non citizens, dead people etc. that can then be harvested.
More excuses.
Till now democrats along have denied that voter fraud exists and very little press has been dedicated to talking about illegal voting and the need to carefully identify voters.
Trumps simple comment has made everyone talk about it and recognize the potential of voter fraud with our lax management of the voting process. Even Naeeds to be Committed is now talking about it.
but he’s jumping the shark almost everyday now.
That may be an accurate phrase to describe his posts, but is it Turley jumping the shark, or is it the Democratic party that has jumped the shark leftward and he’s just describing how? The hypocrisy from the Democrats over the last 4 years has been jaw-dropping. Russiagate-jump. Kavanaugh-jump. Ukrainegate-jump. Impeachment-jump. Covid-jump. Anitifa-jump. BLM-jump. Destruction of American cities run by Democrats-jump. In each case, Democrats and their radical left base have demonstrated absolute disdain for the rule of law. And despite an overwhelming body of evidence proving Democrats have been lying to the American people and trying to pin their corruption and abuse of the law on President Trump, their base jumps with them.
Fishwings, you and the rest of your cohorts on this blog have fully disgraced yourselves to the point of no return. Even when a laydown event such as Marie Pelosi proving she is an effing hypocrite with absolute indifference for the plight of average Americans, you simply cannot bring yourself to condemn the obvious. Damn!
Fishy, your problem isn’t Trump’s base, it’s the independents and Democrats who are freaked out by Antifa/BLM rioting in cities all around the country.
You are very slow on the uptake.
Hostile Massages?
Cuomo says President Trump better bring an army if he intends to walk the streets of New York.
That warning might apply to all of us. Under Comrade De Blasio shootings have doubled in the city year after year.
Democrats are so good at turning cities into S***holes.
In closing, for Cuomo’s edification only: President Trump has an army and he would love to send it to New York. Was that an invitation, Cuomo?
I think the military will be in New York City before the governor realizes it.
This is an excellent example of civil disobedience to two unjust edicts. She got her hair done and did not wear a mask–good for her! She opened the doors to more civil disobedience, I hope. Too bad she’s criticizing the salon owner for making plain to the nation a secret act of civil disobedience. She didn’t want her civiil disobedience to be made public; it might give people ideas…
“Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right.”
~Henry David Thoreau
Prairie, your sarcasm is based on some misguided idea of rights and science and you are advocating for chaos in an emergency. If we had more of that during WWII w might be speaking German and Japanese. Yes, sometimes leaders and experts get it wrong, but almost certainly not about masks and social distance, and maybe we should have attacked different beaches on DDay and argued about the rights of people who lived on the east coast to turn on their yard lights every night, but Americans didn’t and we won.
You should shut up and get in line. This is bigger than you and I and we are not exactly being led to concentration camps . Grow up.
By the Book,
I am not being sarcastic. Nor am I advocating for chaos in an emergency. Going to get a haircut is hardly a chaotic event. Refusal to obey can be as calm and as orderly as the lives we were leading prior to the edicts and orders and shutdowns. If people choose to social distance and choose to wear masks and choose to follow certain guideliness–good for them! They, too, may follow the dictates of their conscience.
“You should shut up and get in line. This is bigger than you and I and we are not exactly being led to concentration camps .”
I will not. Yes, it is bigger than you and I, but we are part of it and I choose to speak out against leaders who are too big for their britches.
If we wait until we are being led to concentration camps, then it is too late.
Walt Whitman’s Caution.
TO The States, or any one of them, or any city of The
States, Resist much, obey little;
Once unquestioning obedience, once fully enslaved;
Once fully enslaved, no nation, state, city, of this earth,
ever afterward resumes its liberty.
—————
To a Certain Cantatrice.
HERE, take this gift!
I was reserving it for some hero, speaker, or General,
One who should serve the good old cause, the great
Idea, the progress and freedom of the race;
Some brave confronter of despots—some daring rebel;
—But I see that what I was reserving, belongs to you
just as much as to any.
I agree with the main thrust of the the law and order comment Book just made, though the part where he lards it on with “Grow up” etc.
I just wish somebody would have explained that to BLM. Many of these “peaceful protests” even the genuinely peaceful ones, were violative of COVID edicts to protect public health
We agree Kurtz except it should be noted that most of the peaceful protesters have worn masks, unlike the fat cats on the WH lawn. Social distancing, not so much.
ANTIFA had a pretty high rate of mask wearing but I suspect that was to conceal their identities not help with covid spread
Yeah, they always wear masks.
From CDC website. Masks are useless.
The second * is the interesting text.
** Data to inform the definition of close contact are limited. Factors to consider when defining close contact include proximity, the duration of exposure (e.g., longer exposure time likely increases exposure risk), and whether the exposure was to a person with symptoms (e.g., coughing likely increases exposure risk). While research indicates masks may help those who are infected from spreading the infection, there is less information regarding whether masks offer any protection for a contact exposed to a symptomatic or asymptomatic patient. Therefore, the determination of close contact should be made irrespective of whether the person with COVID-19 or the contact was wearing a mask. Because the general public has not received training on proper selection and use of respiratory PPE, it cannot be certain whether respiratory PPE worn during contact with an individual with COVID-19 infection protected them from exposure. Therefore, as a conservative approach, the determination of close contact should generally be made irrespective of whether the contact was wearing respiratory PPE, which is recommended for health care personnel and other trained users, or a mask recommended for the general public.
So basically, they are stating that regardless if a covid person has a mask on or not, you need to quarantine.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/public-health-recommendations.html
1. No, it does not say that. It says if a person known to have Covid contacts someone, as a precaution, test the contact. It also states that “masks may help those who are infected from spreading the infection”, i.e., but not guaranteed. That’s not difficult to understand.
2. It also says “Because the general public has not received training on proper selection and use of respiratory PPE……..” This is an indictment of the Trump admiinistration which from early on should have broadcast everyday, from TV, radio, and billboard, proper procedures for citizens, unequivocally and over and over. This is pointing to anotherfailure of leadership on what should have been an obvious and easy action. The testing, medical care, and vaccine development are the hard stuff. Instead we have a prima donna jerk for president who undercut his own federal guidelines on how citizens should act and we now have 1/4 of the world’s cases with 4% of it’s population.
Nope…
“Therefore, the determination of close contact should be made irrespective of whether the person with COVID-19 or the contact was wearing a mask.”
So a face diaper is irrelevant.
Jim, if there is a serious car wreck, you don’t skip examining passengers who were wearing a seatbelt. Like a seatbelt, there is no debate that masks are a safety device, though mostly for the benefit of others with some benefit to the wearer, if properly worn and removed.
Speaking on the latter clarification, as your quote mentions, the public is not well informed about PPEs (including masks) which is of course something a President who GAF could easily have addressed instead of just hoping it would go away. I note again that we have 1/4 of the world’s cases and 4% of it’s population. Do you wonder why?.
“I note again that we have 1/4 of the world’s cases and 4% of it’s population. Do you wonder why?”
No, not really. The Standard American Diet of processed food leads to deficiencies and the comorbidities such as obesity, diabetes, and hypertension associated with negative outcomes with Covid-19. We stay inside too much as a nation and are couch potatoes, generally speaking, so we are vitamin D insufficient. Nearly 70% of adults are overweight or obese. According to the CDC, more than 100 million people have diabetes or prediabetes.
Sadly, what’s there to wonder?
Too bad some group could not do an indepth project and report findings without politics being the main culprit. I say that because South Korea used contact tracing using cell phone GPS coordinates and identifying other cell phone owners that were in that area. Our privacy protections probably would not allow this. New Zealand controlled the virus by closing almost every business other than grocery stores and medical facilities. Large big box stores were closed. People could not leave their town limits. Exercising was limited. With our distrust if government so high, could we do that for 2-3 months. Would the constitution block “in town” blockades? And even with those controls, now that they have relaxed, New Zealand is seeing increases. We have mask mandates, with most without enforcement fines, so less than 50% of people wear them when needed. Would the president have any constitutional power to require masks in all 50 states?
Just listing countries that have done much better than us, what they did, and if we could do it would be if interest. And then just comparing a small country with one leader making decisions compared to America with 50 leaders making decisions guaranteed by the 10th amendment would also be.of interest.
Ron, we have 50 leaders due to the failure of our President to take responsibility. Not for the virus, but for attending to one of his primary duties which is to protect citizens and the country. He has much more power than he has used and avoided it like the plague – or pandemic.
He is the only person able to set national guidelines – binding or not – and to marshal national resources for production and allocation based on need across the 50 states. He didn’t do either and as noted by governors of his own party. securing supplies was the wild west with resources going to the highest bidder, not the state with the greatest need. The fact that we have so many cases mostly goes to a lack of public information on what we as citizens should do to minimize the spread. It’s not rocket science, but instead of spreading the message – instead of the disease – the President actually sabotaged his administration’s message by encouraging protests against governors trying to implement them and insisting on not only not leading by example, but by setting an example of ignoring those guidelines.
This is not rocket science either.
There was no lack of public information. The CDC issued guidelines back in March and information mailers and alerts were sent to every household in the country. CDC gave daily briefings on what to do. Information was everywhere available to people.
Anon, no one looks at mailers, but they do watch TV and see billboards, and the President prancing around in his fancy hairdo without a mask, making fun of those who do, and hosting large events with neither masks or social distancing. They see him encouraging protesters trying to break into state buildings of governors who did try to implement the guidelines.
Ah, yes, now you want to micro manage the CDC.
This problem is easy – just shut the CDC down.
If YOU wish to try to inform/propogandize people using BillBoards – go ahead. Ni one is stopping you
Very interesting how the views are so divided in this country. Its like living in two different time warps. I don’t think Trump did everything right, but he was relying on Fauci for much of his advice on how to react. I am not going to list all the things Fauci said that turned out to be wrong, but if Fauci was a family physician, one would be dead from misdiagnosis.
So in my world, Trump was not the problem. In your world, Fauci and Cuomo was not the problem. In my world, a governor that orders covid positive patients into nursing home is almost criminally negligent. He also reduced subway access by limiting schedule, thus packing the cars with essential workers, instead of keeping the system running and spreading out ridership. So his actions led to the highest number of deaths, accounting for 17.5% of deaths through yesterday. But in the liberal world, he is the champion. In my world, he is a loser.
And then, one only needs to look at NY that has created economic disaster for business and highest number of deaths, CA that has the highest number of cases and compare their actions to FL and TX which had almost 180 degree different responses to the virus and then tell me one federally dictated response would have resulted in a different outcome.
You can not dictate personal behaviors in America for long and expect an outcomes me like in China.
I would like to have better choices. Trump v Biden is like choosing between arsonic and ricin. One kills acceptable social behavior and the other economic behavior.. Give me a Biden with Trump policies and that is almost the perfect president.
Ron, he also didn’t see to it that the subway trains were disinfected properly along with the rest of mass tranport. They learned that much later.
The problem is that perfect President could never have survived the democrat attack much less the attacks from his own party. The outside is the enemy to all because he doesn’t care about the perks that make Washintonians rich.
BTB – no Trump does NOT have more power than he has used.
You constantly accuse Trump of being totalitarian, acting beyond his constitutional authority – and yet here you are demanding that he do just that ? Frankly, Trump AND governors have acted well beyond their legitmate authority.
And to no effect.
Next – while you have all kinds of demands regarding the use of power over others – FORCE, you have not as yet demonstrated any benefit.
Everything you want the president to ORDER – you are free to do yourself on your own if you beleive it is effective.
Wear a mask if you want, social distance if you want. Pick the places you are willing to go that you think are safe.
Go to church or don’t.
There is absolutely no order you want the president to impose that you are not free to follow on your own.
Clearly many people do not share your oppinions – as they are not doing as you demand.
Why is it that they are not free to determine their own choices ?
Why must others do as you DEMAND ?
Why on earth would we give the president – or any governor the powers you want them to excercise ?
Worse still – nothing you seek to impose by force has any evidence of actual effectiveness.
“You constantly accuse Trump of being totalitarian, acting beyond his constitutional authority – and yet here you are demanding that he do just that ?”
That is btb, dishonest to the core as we have seen with all of his many different identities.
The constitutions requires the president to protect the RIGHTS of americans – that is in truth the only task within the capability of government. It does not empower the president – or anyone else to protect people from whatever annoys you.
Life does not come with a guarantee.
John, the left is looking for parents to tell them what to do and what not to do where the dictatorial leaders wish to be the parents. Your comments exceed the notions btb has based on the soundbites he all but memorizes so his replies are full of contradictions. He cannot deal with your honest logic.
Ron, I think “there is not one method that will work with this virus” is a misdirection of sorts. The question is what combination of responses works best. New Zealand didn’t rely solely on “giv[ing] their “leader” far greater controls over citizen actions than our constitution gives our president.” They also made much better use of data, took strong action earlier in the pandemic (when Trump was still saying that 15 would soon go down to zero and lauding Xi), …
There are many things that Trump can’t do, as we’re a federal republic, and many decisions are left to state and local governments. But there are many other things that he *could* do and hasn’t done / seems uninterested in. And of course, as I noted earlier, some of the things Trump did wrong were prior to the virus emerging, not just in response.
New Zealand is an Island with a population smaller than NYC. so your comment demonstrates a mind that doesn’t know how to compare apples to oranges.
One has to specifically demonstrate how any actions claimed to be better or worse would function. You just list a slew of things that are meaningless on their own.
Very poor method of debate or even discussion. You rely on others to prove relatively stupid things you say are wrong. Start proving that what you say is correct and has the effect you say it has. Your comments on this particular thread demonstrate how ignorant you are and how you will hold tight onto any unsupported idea that you think makes your case. It’s pretty sad Ms. Secretary.
NZ has a population between SC and AL.
And as you note is an island – with no land borders with anyone.
C19 gets into NZ one way only – by air.
And almost anyone bringing C19 to NZ had to travel 13 hours first – unless they can from AU.
“Ron, I think “there is not one method that will work with this virus” is a misdirection of sorts”
Nope – there is no evidence that ANY policy or combination of polices worked,.
New Zealand is a smal country with a very low population density, they did not make “better use of the data”
There is no actual evidence they knew what they are doing.
They did no better than Yemen or Uraguay – or Sierra Leone
Do you honestly think that Yemen in the midst of a civil war “made much better use of data and took strong action earlier” ?
Separately the US locked down at exactly the same time as NZ. NZ started in late march and by early april 32 or 50 states had locked down. The PM asked for a lockdown in late march and it was finalized in early april.
“There are many things that Trump can’t do, as we’re a federal republic, and many decisions are left to state and local governments. ”
Your learning
“But there are many other things that he *could* do and hasn’t done / seems uninterested in. And of course, as I noted earlier, some of the things Trump did wrong were prior to the virus emerging, not just in response.”
And look at the US – those states that locked down early had the worst outcomes.
I do not personally think those are actually related. Meaning lockdowns did not cause worse outcomes,
But you have to be blind to beleive they produced better outcomes.
You want Trump to have done more – yet cite something Trump should have done – that has evidence of actually working, that he did not ?
You can’t – because the actual evidence is that no government policy anywhere has proven effective.
Prairie, that’s ignorant BS. What you describe goes to mortality, not the number of cases.
By the Book,
The number of cases is immaterial. There are millions of cases of the common cold every year, millions of cases of the flu. Mortality matters and the mortality associated with SARS-Cov2 is highly connected to those with comorbidities such as obestiy, diabetes, hypertension, and being elderly. All of these things are also associated with multiple deficiencies, including zinc and vitamin D.
Prairie, too silly to reply to. If you’re not exposed you won’t get sick or die from it.
The R0 for C19 may be as high as 3.8 and is certainly atleast 2.4 – that RADICALLY reduces the effectiveness of the measures government has mandated.
Masks do not even work in hospital settings. Doctors and nurses using PPE with a .97 purported effectiveness will nearly all test positive for antibodies after several weeks.
If you do not reduce R0 below 1.0 you are making it WORSE not better – you are making things last longer, you are increasing the odds that C19 finds the most vulnerable, that it gets into elder care facilities, and you are multiplying all the other negative impacts of shutdowns etc.
The FACT is accross the world we have seen ZERO evidence that Government measures have had any effect beyond protracting this.
Prairie’s observation regardling mortality is spot on.
Variations between countries on testing processes as well as variations in testing over time mean you can not compare positive tests broadly – you can not compare positive tests between the US and EU, you can not compare them in the US between April and July.
We already know that we are MISSING 90-95% of cases, variations in testing can produce wide but meaningless swings in positive test numbers.
To compare you need the number of actual infections – and that can not be derived from test numbers – atleast not over time and between regions.
Even mortality is imperfect – Western countries have better overall medical care and we do get slightly better at treating this over time.
But there are far less and large factors effecting mortality than postive tests.
Probably the best measure is hospitalization rate – atleast for advanced countries and states.
This is a part of science (and economics and government) that the left is completely incognizant of.
much of the data we collect is NOT laboratory data from controlled experiments.
Therefore we have all kinds of problems with the data itself and with trying to derive meaning from it.
We have statistical methods for doing so – but those methods are often ignored by the public and the media and often by scientists themselves.
Politics has so permeated science that many scientists think it is acceptable to allow the public and media to draw false conclusions from messy data – if that results in the polices they want.
Scientists should NEVER be taking a stand on policies. Identifying the behaviour of systems is their job.
Deciding what to actually do is either a political problem or an individual choice.
Regardless, it is pretty obvious on inspection to anyone not predisposed to a proffered outcome that Government measures to thwart C19 have been ineffective.
But if that is not obvious to you buy inspection, it is certainly true after regressing the data.
WE have politicians and SOME scientists arguing for lockdowns and masks and …. bot because the science supports it, but because the natural instinct – amplified on the left to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING in the face of danger.
In the real world quite often doing nothing is the best choice.
And finally the left can not distinguish between advice and orders.
I have zero problems with advising people to wear masks, social distance, take vitiman D stay away from old and sick people, ….
It is immoral to order it.
Your claim that “The number of cases is immaterial” is nonsense. Mortality isn’t the only thing that matters. Longterm health effects also matter: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351
The larger the number of cases, the more people who have longterm health effects.
And we have the 11th highest rate of deaths per capita in the entire world: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality (scroll to the bottom chart and click on the “deaths/100K pop.” column). If you’re going to claim that that’s because we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites, you’ll need to back that up with actual evidence.
Almost all infectious agents can have long term affects, so what is new? This is more deflection dealing first with the trivial facts rather than the important issues. Most of those that have long term affects are the elderly and sick which is the problem being faced with this virus.
As far as the death rate per milliion, our western neighbors across the ocean have a higher death rate and we have a lot of other things in common with them. The brainpower that continues to use these metrics needs a new set of batteries. When one does comparisons one is required to deal with the variables. This joker doesn’t understand how variables must be accounted for and a single triple A battery can’t provide a sophisticated understanding of events.
If we remove some Blue States a significant variable of uncertain nature the death rate of the US plummets way down. That is a variable that requires exploration. We already know that some of the democrat governors and mayors are responsible for killing a good number of nursing home patients.
At one time when we were considered the best in the world in dealing with heart disease stupid people would say we had the highest rate of congestive heart failure in the world. Of course we did because congestive heart failure occurred in patients who were kept alive in this nation but not in other nations. That applies to Covid deaths. The largest segment of our population to die of Covid were the very old and sick. Many of them were placed in large institutions where the Covid could easily spread and kill. Many Covid victims were kept alive by expensive drugs used predominently in the US. You don’t expect such populations to exist in most areas of Africa which means the death rate would be low because of the small number of elderly and sick receiving care in a crowded institution to extend their lives. The same would apply to those that died before Covid because they didn’t not have access to the lifesaving medications available in the US.
“Your claim that “The number of cases is immaterial” is nonsense. Mortality isn’t the only thing that matters. Longterm health effects also matter:”
Red Herring.
Regardless, mortality is the best measure we have of the scale of all problems.
WE can not determine the actual extent of infections from the positive test rates. There are far many independent variables.
There is not much evidence that the long term health effects – except for the most serious cases are consequential.
For 95% of those infected the long and short term impact is LESS than the flu or cold.
But SOME people who survive the flu or cold have long term effects – not many but some.
Regardless, we can project long term impact from death rates, we can project long term impact from hospitalization rates,
We can NOT from positive test rates.
“The larger the number of cases, the more people who have longterm health effects.”
True – except that we DO NOT KNOW the number of cases. We know the number of positive tests. Those are OBVIOUSLY not the same.
In the recent “spike” in red states – mortality and hospital admissions were 1/5 of less than in blue states.
There are only a few possible explanations:
Red states are better at treating C19 early on.
C19 has mutated and become less lethal
Or much of the spike is just a reflection of higher rates of testing.
What there is not is a choice that preserves your hysteria.
You fixate on long term impacts – it is highly unlikely that while deaths in red states were low that long term impacts would correlate with positive tests rather than hospitalizations and mortality.
You are deliberately misconstruing the argument.
Mortality is important for atleast TWO reasons:
Because dying is more serious than getting a cold.
It is likely that more people have colds every year than have gotten C19 – yet we are not shutting down the economy over the cold.
We have overreacted to C19 because it is about 2 times more lethal than the flu. And because it spreads incredibly fast – which is why all your policy measures are likely ineffective.
But the more important reason for focusing on mortality is though not a perfect measure it is the best universal measure we have.
It more accurately tells us the scale of the problem and the actual number of infections than any other measure.
Though there are plenty of variables in the way different places count deaths, it is still a more accurate measure for comparisons than anything else.
The deaths per capita for the EU as a whole is the same as the US.
The death rate per capita in the US would be lower without NY, and far far lower without blue states.
If Florida or Texas or other red states were countries they would have the lowest per capita death rates in the world.
You have several choices:
Blue states F’d up.
Or variations in mortality (and other effects) are primarily demographic and outside of governments ability to control.
“If you’re going to claim that that’s because we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites, you’ll need to back that up with actual evidence.”
Why ? Data supporting that is pretty easy to find. We already know that C19 mortality is exponential with age, and the mortality rate across the globe strongly correlates tot he age of the population.
But here is information on another factor that is unusually high in the US.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200714/why-obesity-may-stack-the-deck-for-covid-19-risk
By the Book,
Have you read ‘The Masque of the Red Death’?
Prairie, no.
Why do long-term health effects happen? They happen because the body has been depleted (or was already depleted) of necessary nutrients to function optimally.
“If you’re going to claim that that’s because we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites, you’ll need to back that up with actual evidence.”
This is decent overview of where we stand with chronic disease.
“Thirty years ago, only one in 400 people developed an autoimmune disease. Today, one in 12 Americans—one in nine women—have an autoimmune disease.”
https: //www.binghammemorial.org/Health-News/autoimmune-diseases-around-the-world
Around 80% of the population is likely vitamin D insufficient.
https: //mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/epidemiology
From sources such as IndexMundi, WHO, Endocrine News, Wikipedia, and the NIH:
We are ranked in the world:
#1 Diabetes (amongst Western countries)
#3 Alzheimers
#2 Parkinsons
#3 COPD
#2 Asthma
#3 Rheumatoid arthritis
#6 Death from coronary heart disease (amongst Western countries)
#12 Obesity (behind mostly Pacific islands) with 36.2% of our population being outright obese (not including those who are overweight)
14% of Americans have Chronic Kidney Disease
45% of Americans have one or more chronic diseases
Prairie Rose — I think one reason we are seeing more of the diseases you list is because diagnostics are better.
For some that is true.
But the US has more obesity and diabetes, because even our poor are wealthy and can eat whatever they want.
Just as the rich and middle class in another century had gout.
Young,
Yes, diagnostics are better, but I don’t think they are that much better over the course of 40 years. The incidence of these diseases over even the last 20 years, let alone 40, has increased.
Weston Price, DDS wrote a very interesting book about the differences in dentition between people who were eating a traditional diet versus those who were eating a western, more processed-food diet. Those eating the western diet had dental arch problems, etc, while those who ate a traditional diet (pretty much anywhere on the globe) had great arches and few dental problems. This was documented way back in the 1930s.
This is a short video (under 15 minutes) about Dr. Pottenger’s Cats that discusses the way diet affected feline growth, development, and reproduction. Those observations should give us pause about the Standard American Diet.
Prairie, when you look at the actual numbers that are considered normal today in diseases like Hypertension and Diabetes you find that a significant percentage of them would have been called normal not that long ago. Additionally as the population ages those that would have developed such diseases die.
Allan,
“Prairie, when you look at the actual numbers that are considered normal today in diseases like Hypertension and Diabetes you find that a significant percentage of them would have been called normal not that long ago.”
Do you mean “considered abnormal today”?
I do recognize that the numbers have changed somewhat. For example, being considered ‘obese’ required a higher BMI a few years ago, and, what is considered hypertensive now was, not too long ago, considered pre-hypertensive. That said, I think if we looked at the numbers from 1975-1995 or even clear up through 2005, a distinct increase in chronic diseases could be observed. I think this is especially apparent if you look at pediatrics. Kids are now being diagnosed with high blood pressure! Kids are being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and even NASH. My kids didn’t used to get their BP checked and now they do.
Prairie Rose,
I said “If you’re going to claim that that’s because we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites, you’ll need to back that up with actual evidence,” but your citation doesn’t say that we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites. Instead, you seem to be deflecting to just focusing on problems within the U.S. — not a comparative ranking.
I think you understand what a comparative global ranking is.
Do you have one for comorbidities?
Are you claiming that we’re 11th highest for those?
And we’re not talking about longterm health effects like “autoimmune disease.” We’re talking about already-noted side-effects of COVID-19, such as myocarditis.
“I think you understand what a comparative global ranking is.”
Needs to be Committed thinks she is an expert on global rankings understanding everything that one needs to understand. Myanmar (Burma) deaths per million is 0.1. Since Needs to be Committed is so committed to her ranking system she believes our health care system should have responded like Myanmar’s which should be near the top of her list for appropriate management of Covid.
We are all listening to what she thinks Myanmar did better than the US. She doesn’t shut up much but she will with regard to this question.
Are you honestly arguing this ?
Americans are notoriously unhealthy – do you really want to debate that ? Are you really demanding proof of that ?
What is amazing is that we have a health care system that can keep us alive despite our incredibly unhealthy lifestyle.
But C19 does not give a $h!t.
Commit,
“but your citation doesn’t say that we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites. Instead, you seem to be deflecting to just focusing on problems within the U.S. — not a comparative ranking.
I think you understand what a comparative global ranking is.
Do you have one for comorbidities?
Are you claiming that we’re 11th highest for those?
And we’re not talking about longterm health effects like “autoimmune disease.” We’re talking about already-noted side-effects of COVID-19, such as myocarditis.”
You seemed to have skimmed my post. I clearly noted which citations were for problems in the US and which were comparisons to other countries.
I wrote: “From sources such as IndexMundi, WHO, Endocrine News, Wikipedia, and the NIH: We are ranked in the world:” The rankings following it compare us to countries around the world. I noted when the data specifically compared us to western countries, as well.
“Do you have one for comorbidities?
Are you claiming that we’re 11th highest for those?
And we’re not talking about longterm health effects like “autoimmune disease.” We’re talking about already-noted side-effects of COVID-19, such as myocarditis.”
I had autoimmunity, so while it is not a main comorbidity (not in the papers I have read, at least), it is a chronic health condition. I no longer have antibodies against my thyroid, at least last time I was checked, so it appears the autoimmunity is in remission, thank heavens! I do still have to take thyroid replacement hormones, though. I had trouble accessing our worldwide ranking for autoimmune disease due to a paywall, but, considering we are ranked very high for rheumatoid arthritis, I’d bet we’re pretty high for autoimmunity, in general.
If you remove from the ranking all the little Pacific islands (where they probably get plenty of vitamin D), we are number 1 in the world for obesity. The others that are most particularly comorditities for Covid-19 complications, not just chronic health problems, include COPD, asthma, and diabetes. We are most definitely in the top 11, heck, we’re in the top 5.
We were not talking about side effects of Covid-19; we were talking about corbidities that lead to negative outcomes with Covid-19.
Prairie.
CTDHD does not care about facts.
I do not know why you bothered to provide sources.
The poor health of americans is about as obvious as the sun rising tomorow.
There are some things that there is no sane reason to argue about.
If CTDHD wants to pretend that americans are incredibly healthy – the delusion is hers.
Prairie Rose:
You’ve said things like “SARS-Cov2 is highly connected to those with comorbidities such as obestiy, diabetes, hypertension, and being elderly.”
When I said “If you’re going to claim that that’s [i.e., we have the 11th highest rate of deaths per capita] because we also have the 11th highest rate of comorbidites, you’ll need to back that up with actual evidence,” you said “From sources such as IndexMundi, WHO, Endocrine News, Wikipedia, and the NIH: …” and you made a bunch of claims without presenting an actual citation for any of them.
Your claim “I clearly noted which citations were for problems in the US and which were comparisons to other countries” is misleading, because you didn’t present citations for the latter, only the former. You presented citations for the claims “Thirty years ago, only one in 400 people developed an autoimmune disease. Today, one in 12 Americans—one in nine women—have an autoimmune disease.” and “Around 80% of the population is likely vitamin D insufficient.” Simply referencing “IndexMundi, WHO, Endocrine News, Wikipedia, and the NIH” is not a citation.
So let’s back up:
How about we start by listing all of the comorbidites you’re referring to for COVID-19 (SARS-Cov2 is the virus, but the disease is COVID-19). You’ve already listed the following:
* obestiy
* diabetes
* hypertension
* being elderly
And here’s one discussion from the CDC about re: “People of any age with the following conditions are at increased risk of severe illness from COVID-19: …”
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
Let’s focus on their top list (established risk factors) and not their bottom one (possible risk factors):
* Cancer
* Chronic kidney disease
* Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease
* Immunocompromised state from solid organ transplant
* Obesity (body mass index ≥30). [this overlaps with your list]
* Serious cardiovascular disease
* Heart failure
* Coronary artery disease
* Cardiomyopathies
* Sickle cell disease
* Type 2 diabetes mellitus. [this partially overlaps with yours, but it’s a subset of all diabetes, so yours is too general]
As you’ll see, hypertension — in your list — is only listed by the CDC as a possible risk factor, not an established one. But the CDC page may not be up-to-date. This research indicates that it’s a significant factor: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00325481.2020.1786964
Are there any other comorbidities for severe illness or death that need to be added to the CDC list? If so, please add them and identify the source for inclusion.
If not, now we need to go through the list one by one for global rankings (not “amongst Western countries” — among all countries). You say “If you remove from the ranking all the little Pacific islands …,” but I refuse to remove any countries when discussing a global ranking. Global ranking means all countries.
As for “We were not talking about side effects of Covid-19; we were talking about corbidities that lead to negative outcomes with Covid-19,” I was actually talking about both. Why am I also talking about health impacts? Because you claimed “The number of cases is immaterial,” and my point was that serious health impacts (for people who do not die from COVID-19) is related to the number of cases. It’s a mistake to focus only on the number of deaths, or only on the comorbidities. For example, coronavirus-associated myocarditis has already been identified as a serious health effect for some people of having developed COVID-19. But thanks for clarifying that you thought we were only discussing comorbidities; I’ll try to be clearer about which I’m discussing (comorbidites vs. serious health effects).
CTDHD
Your list and the CDC link you provide are the perfect example of why we do not trust the experts.
Here are the C19 deaths by age.
https://www.acsh.org/sites/default/files/coronavirus%20covid%20mortality%20us%20by%20age.png
1/3 over 85
60+% over 75
80+% over 65
90+% over 55
A bit more than 2% under 45.
Not even 1% under 35.
A bit more than 0.1% under 25
0.02% under 15.
0.002% under 4.
So the CDC claim that anyone of any age can die of C19 is literally true but incredibly deceptive.
If you are under 45 and have no comorbities – your likelyhood of dying from C19 are about 1:2000000.
Next your/CDC’s list of comorbitities is NOT in order.
Hypertension.
Obesity
Diabeties
morbid obesity
and coranary artery disease
are the only comorbidities present in more than 10% of people
Absolutely if you have cancer you should be concerned about C19.
But cancer, kidney disease and COPD are each only present in 5% of cases.
While organ transplants, hepatitis. and HIV are present in less than 1% of cases.
https://time.com/5825485/coronavirus-risk-factors/
The fact is the YOUR risks with respect to C19 are extremely predictable.
Just anyone is NOT likely to die from this.
If you are both elderly and sick – you should not wear a mask – you should live in a bubble with no contact with others.
If you are young and healthy – there is absolutely no way in which you should change your life style
This is what the DATA says – most of which we KNEW from China.,
This is why the stories of blue state govenors sending infected patients to nursing homes is damning.
That is murder.
It is also why college students going on spring break was not even slightly irrespoinsible – no matter how you painted it.
You the left and the experts have all been trying to pretend that this has nearly the same risk for all of us – that is a LIE.
It is actually a SERIOUS LIE.
You have wasted effort resources and energy trying to protect EVERYONE from something that for most of us is less dangerous than the common cold, and in doing so you have FAILED to protect those who were truly at risk.
We should have done nearly the opposite of what we have done.
Instead of closing the economy we should have provided extra resources to the most vulnerable.
Instead of f’ing up the entire economy we should have temporarily allowed all those who were ACTUALLY at risk to VOLUNTARILY go on unemployment. We should have provided them with food delivery service and everything they needed to stay at home locked down and isolated from the rest of us as this disease ran through the rest of the population.
We would have spent Trillions less, we would not have burned down the economy, and we would have far less deaths. But the same number of cases.
It is unlikely that we have any ability to reduce the number of people who get C19 – but we do have the ability to protect those few who it is most likely to kill
It should be obvious to anyone NOT a moron that we could have saved 100,’s of thousands of lives with LESS effort than we expended,, at less cost in every possible way, and that we could have done so without infringing on anyone’s rights.
Without closing a single business, without requiring a single mask, without requiring that anyone do anything.
A completely voluntary approach focused on those most likely to be killed or severely harmed by this
We are approaching 200,000 deaths – if those suffering long term harm are 5 times that number – that is about 1M people total.
That is 0.33% of americans. If we assume that we would have to protect 10 times that many – that is 3% of americans. even 30 times that number is LESS than peak C19 unemployment increase.
Because you were unable to grasp that C19 does not effect each of us equally – you used force in ways that accomplished nothing and allowed more people to do that would have otherwise.
Darren,
I tried to break the multiple links in my post (tried twice), but WordPress ate it anyway. Would you be able to free it? I’m sorry my attempts at breaking the links didn’t work. Thank you in advance for your help.
Attempt 3.
Commit,
I was annoyed that I would have to break a whole bunch of links in order to include my citations (since we’re only allowed 2 links). You are right; what I included are technically not citations. I am typically not sloppy when citing my sources, though I did include the names to make searching the data easier.
My earlier citations:
Regarding chronic disease and vitamin D insufficiency:
“Incidence and prevalence of chronic disease” The Marshal Protocol Knowledge Base: Autoimmune Research Foundation.
Int J Environ Res Public Health. 2018 Mar; 15. “An Empirical Study of Chronic Diseases in the United States: A Visual Analytics Approach to Public Health” Wullianallur Raghupathi and Viju Raghupathi
Regarding diabetes incidence (we are first amongst first-world, western nations):
“Diabetes prevalence (% of population ages 20 to 79) – Country Ranking” IndexMundi.
“U.S. Leads Developed Nations in Diabetes Prevalence” Endocrine News. Dec. 2015
Regarding obesity:
“List of countries by obesity rate” Wikipedia.
Regarding chronic kidney disease:
“Kidney Disease Statistics for the United States” National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases. NIH.
Regarding various chronic conditions:
WHO. “Global Burden of Disease Report. Part 3” 2004.
(I did look this over again. I should not have assumed the US was the largest contributor to “The Americas” numbers. I decided that the numbers probably weren’t too far off considering other research that I’ve read in the past. I have not double-checked all the numbers to make sure; time to do so is hard to find. Getting this reply completed to the degree it is has been tricky enough.)
Regarding cancer: We are ranked number 5 worldwide for incidence:
World Cancer Research Fund. “Global cancer data by country: Exploring which countries have the highest cancer rates”
Regarding Chronic Kidney Disease: We have 38,816,706 cases of CKD in the US—that’s 3rd behind China and India for sheer numbers of people with markers of kidney disease! About 10-14% of our population is affected. Table 2, in particular.
The Lancet. February 29, 2020. “Global, regional, and national burden of chronic kidney disease, 1990–2017: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2017” GBD Chronic Kidney Disease Collaboration.
From “The ascending rank of chronic kidney disease in the global burden of disease study” by Jager and Fraser in Nephrology Dialysis Transplantation: “For the increase in DALYs, CKD due to diabetes mellitus appears to be the main contributor”
Regarding Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease: While we are not highly ranked for incidence worldwide (because people in this country use electric stoves rather than open-fire, dung-fueled stoves, for instance), it is the 3rd leading cause of death in the US.
“Global Strategy for the Diagnosis, Management, and Prevention of Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease: 2020 Report.” GOLD. Global Initiative for Chronic Obstructive Lung Disease.
Regarding Heart Failure, at least for the countries examined, by prevalence, we’re top 6.
Card Fail Rev. 2017 Apr. “Global Public Health Burden of Heart Failure.” Gianluigi Savarese and Lars H Lund
For Heart Disease, we’re number 3—behind countries with far larger populations (India and China).
Int J Cardiol. 2013 Sep 30. “Mortality from ischaemic heart disease by country, region, and age: Statistics from World Health Organisation and United Nations” Judith A. Finegold, Perviz Asaria, and Darrel P. Francis
For type 2 diabetes, since it accounts for 90-95% of all diabetes cases, I’m pretty sure my original numbers were not too general. In any case, we are ranked number 3 in the world for sheer numbers of cases, only behind China and India. About 10% of our population has diabetes, while a total of about 30% have either diabetes or pre-diabetes, accounting for about 30 million people.
Diabetes Research and Clinical Practice. September 10, 2019. “Global and regional diabetes prevalence estimates for 2019 and projections for 2030 and 2045: Results from the International Diabetes Federation Diabetes Atlas, 9th edition” Pouya Saeedi, Inga Petersohn, et al.
“It’s a mistake to focus only on the number of deaths, or only on the comorbidities.”
I agree that both should be discussed. However, if they are discussed at the same time, it makes the discussion convoluted and confusing, neither being good for clarity and understanding of a complex issue.
Excellent,
But much of this is so close to common knowledge the real question is why CTDHD wants to fight about it.
Is anyone realling trying to claim the US does not have an obesity and Tryp 2 Diabetes problem ?
Honestly – who is so poorly informed that they need a study to accept that ?
Prairie Rose,
Thanks for your persistence.
I’ve started looking up the citations. The IndexMundi page lists us as 43rd globally for diabetes. I know that you want to focus on comparisons only with wealthy countries, but when talking about global rankings, we have to include all countries.
For obesity, you cited Wikipedia. Just an FYI: Wikipedia itself warns against using it as a source. Instead, they recommend that you focus on the citations. The citation for obesity is the CIA World Factbook, 2016 data (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2228rank.html), where we rank 12th.
I didn’t see a global comparison on National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases site.
For chronic diseases, so far I haven’t found an online version of the World Health Organization’s “Global Burden of Disease Report. Part 3” 2004.
I looked at the World Cancer Research Fund. “Global cancer data by country: Exploring which countries have the highest cancer rates,” but this only lists 50 countries. It isn’t clear whether it’s the top 50, or if they simply don’t have data on the rest. Also, it says “The incidence statistics for 2018 are projections calculated from cancer registry data collected before 2018.”
“Global, regional, and national burden of chronic kidney disease, 1990–2017: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2017” seems to lump “high income North America” together, and also lumps some other countries together, so it’s hard to identify global rankings.
I haven’t yet looked up the rest of the citations.
So your conjecture is plausible, but I’d really have to dig in further on the data. For example, the top 2 countries for cancer are Australia and New Zealand. These also rank fairly high on obesity (though lower than the U.S.), and I’d need to look at where they rank on other comorbidities. But the per capita deaths from COVID-19 for Australia and NZ are much much lower than for the U.S., which suggests that the comorbidities aren’t the key factor in per capita deaths.
FWIW, here’s one source for the countries with the largest % of the population over 65:
https://www.prb.org/countries-with-the-oldest-populations/
There, too, Japan and Italy are the top 2, but Japan and Italy had extremely different outcomes when you look at deaths per capita. Of course, I’d have to look at where they rank on other comorbidities. In order to really assess your conjecture, I’d probably need to create a spreadsheet with a column for each comorbidity, in order to look at all of the relevant data. But it would take quite a while to enter all of that data — more time than I want to take on this.
I do appreciate that we’re able to discuss this without it devolving into the dishonesty and insults that come from a lot of the other people on this site.
CTHD, nice to see discussions concerning data and facts. As to outcomes by country there is one other variable that should be looked at. That being in other countries like New Zealand, Sweden, Germany, etc, they are much smaller, they give their “leader” far greater controls over citizen actions than our constitution gives our president. Where New Zealand went into a phase 5 where individuals were restricted to their town location, and movement within towns was severely restricted, our president does not have those powers. I would think size of theb country and constitutional powers could have a impact on results.
What has any of this got to do with Covid19 and comorbitities ?
You are fixated on nonsense.
Absolutely there are countries with worse obesity and diabetes problems than the US.
I would note that nearly all the obese countries and most of the diabetes countries are pacific island nations which has been overweight for centuries. And have a total population less than rhode island.
And here are the countries with higher rates of diabetes than the US
Kiribati, Sudan, Tuvalu, Mauritius, NewCaledonia, Pakistan, SolomonIslands, PapuaNewGuinea, Palau, Egypt, Belize, Malaysia, UnitedArabEmirates, SaudiArabia, Tonga, Qatar, Bahrain, Fiji, PuertoRico, Mexico, SyrianArabRepublic, Barbados, St,KittsandNevis, Brunei, AntiguaandBarbuda, Jordan, SouthAfrica, Suriname, Seychelles, Comoros, Kuwait, Nauru, Vanuatu, Guyana, Dominica, St,VincentandtheGrenadines, St,Lucia, Nicaragua, Jamaica, Lebanon, Turkey, TrinidadandTobago,
Here are the countries with greater obesity problems than the US
NAURU, COOK ISLANDS, PALAU, MARSHALL ISLANDS, TUVALU, NIUE, TONGA, SAMOA, KIRIBATI, MICRONESIA, FEDERATED STATES OF, KUWAIT,
Ron,
I absolutely agree that there are a bunch of existing factors that contributed to the bad outcomes in the U.S., including the country’s size, existing health problems in the population, the existing poverty distribution, … And I recognize that no one single person is to blame. Plenty of people have made mistakes in dealing with the pandemic in the U.S.
But Trump is also the most powerful person in the U.S., and I look at things that Trump could have done but didn’t do, and I blame him for *those* choices.
Trump was responsible for things like the following:
* proposing that pandemic preparedness funding be cut from the budget in 2017, subsequently cutting other relevant federal health and research funding (including funding for research on animal-to-human virus transmission), and diverting funding away from the CDC for immigration;
* firing Homeland Security Advisor Bossert, who’d “called for a comprehensive biodefense strategy against pandemics and biological attacks” (WaPo description) and allowing Bolton to disband the NSC pandemic response team (with some people ending up elsewhere, but not as part of one team), which would have been better able to coordinate a skilled and unified federal response;
* initially ignoring the pandemic playbook that the Obama Admin. left for the Trump Admin.;
* ignoring info for months about the coronavirus in the President’s Daily Brief;
* failing to consistently model and call for wearing masks once the health community decided that this would reduce transmission;
* initially lauding President Xi’s inadequate response;
* eliminating American public health staff in China, including a position focused on detecting disease outbreaks there;
* setting up super-spreader events at international airports in the U.S. after his statements announcing travel restrictions, where people were packed together — instead of setting up proper procedures in US airports to make sure that people would be tested for the virus and quarantined;
* not dealing properly with people on the cruise ships because he was more concerned about “my numbers” than about the actual people on the ships;
* refusing to deal federally with the need for PPE and leaving states to compete with each other, causing the prices to go up, and sometimes allowing the federal government to confiscate PPE from states;
* failing to use the DPA to order production of PPE;
* endless fantasy lies that COVID-19 is just “going to go away”;
* frequent rejection of science and evidence-based assessments;
* not being on top of errors with developing and making tests available;
* blaming the Obama Admin. for not having a test ready for a disease that didn’t exist when Obama left office;
* blaming the Obama Admin. for depleted PPE stocks that Trump had had over 3 years to replenish;
* claiming that no one could have foreseen a pandemic, when he was explicitly warned about it by more than one source at different times in his tenure;
* still fighting in court to end Obamacare and pre-existing conditions coverage without having passed any substitute, despite repeatedly claiming that he’d provide better health care;
* early lies about how many tests were available / that anyone who wanted one could get one, and many other lies, such as his claim that “we have it totally under control”.
Were each of these decisions made by Trump himself? No, that list is a mix of Trump’s personal decisions and decisions made by various officials he’d appointed. But he could have overruled any of them if he’d wanted, and he could have chosen more competent nominees.
I keep thinking about the contrast between President Truman’s sign “The Buck Stops Here” and President Trump’s response “I don’t take responsibility at all” when asked about problems with testing. He is the king of taking credit for things that go well (even when someone else was actually responsible) and blaming others for what goes wrong (even when he’s responsible). The U.S. response could have been much more effective than it’s been. Other countries are now looking at us and wondering why, and other countries (like China) have stepped into the void in global leadership. It’s shameful.
CTHD, and many of those items you list, along with the constant lying, is why I cant vote for Trump. But after working in healthcare finance for over 35 years, I know the negative impact that medicare has had one the overall cost of care after 30 years of not paying the actual cost of service, transferring those cost to others. Much like redistribution of wealth supported by the left, this is redistribution of expenses driving up cost for others to the point revenue charges have no relationship to the cost of providing care. In many instances, the payment doctors receive for seeing a patient is less than the charges for an oil change at Jiff Lube. So that is why more government programs supported by Biden makes it impossible for me to vote for him
Ron.
I would ask you to compare Trump to Biden on things that matter.
You say Trump lies too much – about what ?
Trump has made it pretty damn clear that he will move heaven and earth to keep his campaign promises.
That does not sound like somebody for whom truthfulness and trustworthyness are a problem.
Most of us are counting on the fact that Biden is lying about his campaign promises.
Almost no one would vote for him if he did.
Obama did not keep his campaign promises.
We were not out of Iraq and afghanistan in 120 days, or 8 years.
Guantanamo is still open.
We did not get to keep our doctors if we liked them.
We did not get to keep our insurance if we liked it.
Benghazi was NOT a spontaneous protest over an internet video.
Criminal justice reform had to wait for Trump -and even then is still too little.
We had a financial mess in 2008 that Obama promised to fix – yet nothing that he did addressed the actual causes of the problem.
Obama promised to end mass surveilance
He promised to secure the borders – peak ICE enforcement was actually under Obama by an order of magnitude.
He promised to create 5m green jobs – thank god he did not.
He promised to reign in lobbyists,
He promised to unify republicans and democrats – and yet through his presidency the division grew.
I do not care about what Trump says about the size of his hands – or what that correlates to.
I do care about what Trump says he will do – and then what he does.
in my world a liar is someone you can not trust.
My best friend in the entire world tells tall tales about his past all the time. Almost nothing he says about the past is true.
And he is not so hot on other things too.
But if i really need help – I can count on him being there. That is why he is my best friend. And why he can count on me.
His stories are entertaining. But they are mostly fiction. But his commitments are binding. He does what he promises.
He is their when you need him.
And that is why I trust him.
“Ron,
I absolutely agree that there are a bunch of existing factors that contributed to the bad outcomes in the U.S., including the country’s size, existing health problems in the population, the existing poverty distribution, … And I recognize that no one single person is to blame. Plenty of people have made mistakes in dealing with the pandemic in the U.S.”
Then why have you been fighting and stupidly nit picking exactly these things ?
T
“But Trump is also the most powerful person in the U.S., and I look at things that Trump could have done but didn’t do, and I blame him for *those* choices.”
Not with respect to public health. Public health is not mentioned anywhere in the constitution as a federal or executive power.,
But there is a deeper flaw to your argument.
Even if Trump had the power to do more. As demonstrated accross the world in nations where leaders did have those powers – stronger actions have had no statistically significant positive effect.
Further self evidently in the US – where governors do or atleast got away with excercising the powers you claim – those states which did all the things you think should have been done fared the worse.
Those states that did the least fared the best.
So why is it you think that Trump doing more would have produced a better outcome ?
And finally – why is it that you think that it is the presidents, the governors or governments job to keep you from getting sick ?
Wear a mask, don;’t – your choice.
What you want of Trump – of government is for it to use FORCE to infringe on the rights of others in the unlikely hope of a better outcome.
From the start getting a better outcome was easy. It merely required grasping where the actual risk was and focusing on protecting those at risk, and respecting peoples freedom to decide for themselves.
But you are incapable of either.
“* proposing that pandemic preparedness funding be cut from the budget in 2017, subsequently cutting other relevant federal health and research funding (including funding for research on animal-to-human virus transmission), and diverting funding away from the CDC for immigration;”
Good – lets just eliminate it entirely. This is not governments job.
“* firing Homeland “Security Advisor Bossert, who’d “called for a comprehensive biodefense strategy against pandemics and biological attacks” (WaPo description) and allowing Bolton to disband the NSC pandemic response team (with some people ending up elsewhere, but not as part of one team), which would have been better able to coordinate a skilled and unified federal response;”
Given how badly the experts have done – Trump failed to fire enough of them.
“* initially ignoring the pandemic playbook that the Obama Admin. left for the Trump Admin.;”
Because Obama handled H1N1 so well ?
“* ignoring info for months about the coronavirus in the President’s Daily Brief;”
Again what difference would it make. This is not the president’s job.
“* failing to consistently model and call for wearing masks once the health community decided that this would reduce transmission;”
For failing to do something that we do not have any actual data on its effectiveness in the real world. And for failing to do so under circumstances where it was meaningless ?
“* initially lauding President Xi’s inadequate response;”
Xi did not inadequeately respond – he did so with absolutely draconian measures that no western country would tolerate.
Xi did not fail in his response. Xi LIED to the world, and appears to have deliberately allowed this to spread to the world
Xi refused to allow the people of Wuhan to travel within China. But he allowed them to travel throughout the rest of the world.
“* eliminating American public health staff in China, including a position focused on detecting disease outbreaks there;”
This is entirely meaningless. You seem to think that americans in China have the freedom to act as they do in the US.
“* setting up super-spreader events at international airports in the U.S. after his statements announcing travel restrictions, where people were packed together — instead of setting up proper procedures in US airports to make sure that people would be tested for the virus and quarantined;”
I have no idea what you are talking about – and I doubt you do either.
Regardless, there is todate no actual evidence that a Trump event lead to any significant spread.
“* not dealing properly with people on the cruise ships because he was more concerned about “my numbers” than about the actual people on the ships;”
Again what the he!! does this mean ? The problem with the crusise ships is no one wanted ships full of C19 patients to dock in their city and country.
LEaving them on their ships is actually epidemology 101.
Bujt we have not followed standard practices in dealing with C19 – the left has made us follow new rules that have never been tried before and are mathematically know to be ineffective.
“* refusing to deal federally with the need for PPE and leaving states to compete with each other, causing the prices to go up, and sometimes allowing the federal government to confiscate PPE from states;”
False – and stupid. Trump did intervene – alot, way too much. Regardless PPE was ultimately dealt with very effectively by the free market.
We are up to out asses in TP, Hand sanitizer, and PPE and have been but for a few days at the start.
“* failing to use the DPA to order production of PPE;”
And yet we are burried in PPE – we are selling it to the world.
“* endless fantasy lies that COVID-19 is just “going to go away”;”
It is.
“* frequent rejection of science and evidence-based assessments;”
ZERO. You do not have either the actual science or the evidence behind most of your idiotic claims.
We have fought over masks here forever – you have not as of yet cited a real world study that demonstrates that masks are effective against C19.
Further the global evidence is that no policy measure taken by any country has proven effective.
Your idiotic idea of “science” and “evidence” is merely the spray from purported experts who say what you lile while silencing those you disagree with.
Google and other major cites supressed information that contradicted the WHO – that is the group that has been WRONG about pretty much everything.
This entire C19 debacle has been the perfect demonstration of the incompetence of left wing nut fallacies fixated on experts.
FIRE THEM ALL.
It would certainly do no harm.
“* not being on top of errors with developing and making tests available;”
Who cares ? Testing is information – and bad information at that.
It is NOT a cure, it is not treatment.
If you are sick – stay home. If you have C19 symptions – call your doctor, if they are serious – go to the hospital.
Not a single test involved.
We did not have a test for the Spanish Flu – yet we survived.
Even Obama’s handling of H1N1 involved very little testing.
The value of testing is at best informational – and quite often results in disinformation.
“* blaming the Obama Admin. for not having a test ready for a disease that didn’t exist when Obama left office;”
False again. But the Obama CDC did F’up, and the failures under obama bled into the trump administration.
While testing is not important. Getting the federal government entirely out of it would have been wise.
Trump did not make the CDC overly powerful – left wingnuts did.
“* blaming the Obama Admin. for depleted PPE stocks that Trump had had over 3 years to replenish;”
And yet Obama did deplete them. and had 7 years to replace them.
“* claiming that no one could have foreseen a pandemic, when he was explicitly warned about it by more than one source at different times in his tenure;”
And Harold Camping is right – the world will one day come to an end. Just not May 21, 2011.
My mother liked to read books about the coming global economic meltdown. She was sure that was coming any day.
Yet still not here.
We are experiencing a once every 50 years event. This is no worse than the 1968 Flu – which we did nothing about.
The post C19 story will be why did we freak out over nothing.
“* still fighting in court to end Obamacare and pre-existing conditions coverage without having passed any substitute, despite repeatedly claiming that he’d provide better health care;”
Good, healthcare is not the role of government – take care of your own health – just as you do food, water and shelter.
“* early lies about how many tests were available / that anyone who wanted one could get one, and many other lies, such as his claim that “we have it totally under control”.”
More testing nonsense.
If tests had been left to the free market like PPE everyone who wanted would have been tested repeatedly by now.
John, you have responded to each and every point that Needs to be Committed wrote. The reasonable thing for her to do is to show why what you said is wrong and debate each individual fact. That she will not do but in the near future she will recycle one or all of those points again. The leftist resources she uses are generally only one level deep. That is all the Secretary can handle.
Commit,
>“I do appreciate that we’re able to discuss this without it devolving into the dishonesty and insults”
I agree. I find these sorts of discussions interesting.
>“The IndexMundi page lists us as 43rd globally for diabetes. I know that you want to focus on comparisons only with wealthy countries, but when talking about global rankings, we have to include all countries.”
I suppose we could dive that deeply in global rankings; however, in regards to coronavirus, we are not being compared to Tuvalu—we are being compared to other large and/or first-world countries. Also, since all those little nations are Pacific Islands, regional comparisons such as Pacific Islands versus North America, as other studies have done as you have noted, then we may very well be considered 2nd in the world, regionally. There are other confounding elements that should be taken into account. While all those little Pacific Islands may have a higher percentage of obesity or even diabetes in their population, very many of them very likely do not have vitamin D insufficiency/deficiency, as upwards of 80% of our population has. I have not seen (or looked for, to be honest) any statistics on how they are fairing with coronavirus. They are not part of the major news articles or journal studies at all. We ought to compare our obesity rates against the countries we are being compared to in coronavirus research or newspaper articles.
>“For obesity, you cited Wikipedia. Just an FYI: Wikipedia itself warns against using it as a source. Instead, they recommend that you focus on the citations.”
I only used Wikipedia as shorthand for a ballpark on what the likely ranking is. Unless I unaware that I am actually writing a research paper on this subject, I figured using it would work for a means of discussion. I doubt it’s that far off. Also, finding some of these citations takes quite a bit of time and I’m a bit short on that.
>“The citation for obesity is the CIA World Factbook, 2016 data, where we rank 12th.”
That sure is pretty close to ranking 11th, especially considering all the other co-morbidities.
>“I didn’t see a global comparison on National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases site.”
While it will not necessarily answer a discussion about comparisons between coronavirus outcomes worldwide, within the nation data will answer, in part, why our nation was hit hard.
>“For chronic diseases, so far I haven’t found an online version of the World Health Organization’s “Global Burden of Disease Report. Part 3” 2004.”
It’s there; maybe the post will accept a link:
https://www.who.int/healthinfo/global_burden_disease/GBD_report_2004update_part3.pdf
“>I looked at the World Cancer Research Fund. “Global cancer data by country: Exploring which countries have the highest cancer rates,” but this only lists 50 countries. It isn’t clear whether it’s the top 50, or if they simply don’t have data on the rest. Also, it says “The incidence statistics for 2018 are projections calculated from cancer registry data collected before 2018.””
I don’t see why it matters that it only examines 50 countries—that’s a decent sample, particularly if it is looking at economically or politically important countries.
>““Global, regional, and national burden of chronic kidney disease, 1990–2017: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2017” seems to lump “high income North America” together, and also lumps some other countries together, so it’s hard to identify global rankings.”
While the data may be somewhat diluted, lumping countries by income and region will still give a helpful overview.
>“But the per capita deaths from COVID-19 for Australia and NZ are much much lower than for the U.S., which suggests that the comorbidities aren’t the key factor in per capita deaths.”
I disagree. Looking at their co-morbidities as a whole, as well as, the percent of the population with vitamin D insufficiency/deficiency, is important. They ranked above us on a single criterion. We consistently rank very high, maybe not number one, but very high, on pretty much all the co-morbidities. Also, after looking at which co-morbidities were most prevalent in Covid-19 deaths is also something to consider. While we are lower in cancer prevalence than Australia and NZ, we are indeed more obese, and, we may also have a greater prevalence of CKD, lung disease, vitamin D insufficiency, and diabetes. Many people have co-morbidities. Are our rankings for multiple co-morbidities higher than some of these other countries (i.e., we may have boatloads of people with 2+ co-morbidities while other countries have a lower percentage of people with multiple health concerns)?
>“FWIW, here’s one source for the countries with the largest % of the population over 65:”
We rank 36, but everyone above us is is not as obese as us, and also, generally, rank lower on many of the other co-morbidities listed.
>“Of course, I’d have to look at where they rank on other comorbidities.”
Simply looking at co-morbidities is not enough, though. Looking at the food culture matters, too. This is a very small sample, anecdotal, really, but could be examined in greater detail somewhat easily. Look at slides 3 & 4. I see pop in one but not in the other.
https://time.com/8515/what-the-world-eats-hungry-planet/
Commit,
“But Trump is also the most powerful person in the U.S., and I look at things that Trump could have done but didn’t do, and I blame him for *those* choices.”
He isn’t supposed to be. There is supposed to be a balance of powers. Those balance of powers are supposed to check the power of the representatives elected by we the people.
We the people have choices and powers, too. Have we foolishly abdicated them or the responsibilities that go with self-governance? I surely hope not.
Ron P.,
“That being in other countries like New Zealand, Sweden, Germany, etc, they are much smaller, they give their “leader” far greater controls over citizen actions than our constitution gives our president. ”
If you compare the way Sweden approached the problem versus New Zealand, Sweden was not really controlling at all. They didn’t shut everything down or force people to ‘socially isolate’. They gave quite a few recommendations with the reasons for them, at least to my understanding.
Sweden also seems to be a far more active country than ours–even in winter. “There’s no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes.”
PR, yes I realize how every country handled it differently. My point was more that our president can not mandate masks in 50 states like Biden says he will do.The constitution does not give him that power. The feds can not restrict movement within states, but they could shut down interstate travel. The feds can not close schools, but they can recommend. All these other countries have one central leader. We have 50 and the presidents powers are limited by what those 50 states allow him to do. Florida has a 3rd more cases than NY, but New York has a 3rd more deaths than Florida.
People can say Trump blew it, but there is not one method that will work with this virus. California basically closed up everything and now they lead the country in cases, Anyone think Newsome, Pelosi or the majority of California residents would listen to Trump if he told them to do something? I suspect they would tell him “pound sand” and then do the opposite.
California is the perfect example of the fact that the “experts” do not know what they are doing.
California did pretty much every draconian measure ever recomended by any expert and they are trapped in lockdown with no way out.
Things were very bad in NY – but for NY C19 is pretty much over. Californians have no idea when they are getting out of lockdown.
California is destroying some segments of their economy and it will take years to recover
Prairie Rose,
Re: your claim that “in regards to coronavirus, we are not being compared to Tuvalu—we are being compared to other large and/or first-world countries,” that “and/or” would lead you to include all sorts of countries (e.g., lots of developing countries are large, some first world countries aren’t). And population density might be a bigger factor than geographic size.
Here are the 10 countries with the largest deaths per capita (we’ve moved back to 10th place, data from https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality):
San Marino (124.32 deaths per 100K population)
Peru (92.39 “)
Belgium (86.73 “)
Andorra (68.83 “)
Spain (62.96 “)
United Kingdom (62.62 “)
Chile (61.67 “)
Brazil (60.25 “)
Italy (58.80 “)
US (57.63 “)
San Marino isn’t much bigger than Tuvalu. Andorra and Belgium are relatively small — both smaller than New Zealand, for example. Peru and Brazil are developing countries.
Re: Wikipedia, the info is often accurate (I sometimes edit WP pages, and there are lots of careful editors, but there are also pages that simply don’t have enough interested people working on them, periodic vandals, …). All I meant was that info on a WP article should be sourced, and then you can use WP to identify the source and look at the source directly.
Thanks for the Global Burden of Disease Report link. I’ll take a look.
“Are our rankings for multiple co-morbidities higher than some of these other countries (i.e., we may have boatloads of people with 2+ co-morbidities while other countries have a lower percentage of people with multiple health concerns)?”
That’s a good question. I don’t know the answer.
Re: “[Trump] isn’t supposed to be [the most powerful person in the U.S.],” sure he is. What single person in the U.S. is more powerful than the President? Agreed that “There is supposed to be a balance of powers” among the three branches, but I wasn’t comparing branches, I was comparing individual people.
I would note that Sweden is NOT on that list.
Which pretty much negates your entire argument.
The country which did nothing but make recomendations has better results than the US.
I would further note that if you take NY out of the mix – the US mortality plumets – just as if you take London out of the UK.
Two of the largest cities in the world at fairly high northern latitude – with the highest mortality rates anywhere.
You keep wanting to fight over C19 nonsense.
When the FACT is that the incidence and mortality of C19 are almost entirely driven by demographic factors – not just throughout the world – but in the US.
Demographic factors explain all differences – between states, between countries.
Policy differences correlate to NOTHING.
Your entire claim that Trump has failed rests on the premise that success is actually possible.
I would further note that globally there are 27M confirmed cases – that is about 1/3 of a bad flu season in the US.
Put simply the case numbers EVERYWHERE are BS. It is near certain the total number of cases globally is closer to 500M
The global fatalities are 896K – less innaccurate than the number of cases – but do you really trust the data from the 3/4 of the world than lives on less than 1000/yr ?
Wikipedia is quite acurate – until the issue becomes political – then it is worthless.
I would be hard pressed to think of a single subject in which i would trust you to edit wikipedia. Saying that you edit pages, makes WP look bad.
I am glad that you recognize Prairies question.
Let me answer it. The US has the worlds best healthcare system supporting a fairly unhealthy population.
Type 2 diabetes is and has been a death sentence in most of the world. For most of modern history people with type 2 Diabetes live a decade from diagnosis – 2 at most. In the US there is little evidence that being diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes reduces your life expectance very much – that is not true anywhere else in the world. Yes there are a few countries with higher rates of diabetes. But I would not be surprised if there are more people with type 2 diabetes in the US than in the entire rest of the world. Almost None of the countries with higher rates than the US were larger than a small US city.
And we know that C19 HATES people with diabetes.
“And we know that C19 HATES people with diabetes.”
Decades ago it was noted that the histological examination of small blood vessels in “normal persons” would show changes in these vessels which was predictive of diabetes long before the diagnosis of diabetes was clinically apparent.
According to CNN Sweden now has one of the lowest death rates from C19 in Europe.
BTW that runs at odds with the claim that the US is worse than the EU since there is only a 20/million difference between the US an Sweden deaths per capita.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/09/03/sweden-covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic-response-foster-ctw-vpx.cnni
The president has great unilateral power with regard to foriegn policiy, and more limited power in national security.
In the area of health – there is no constitutional grant of power to the federal government at all, much less to the president.
You cited a number of things that Trump purportedly did not do, that congress had granted him power.
Two problems:
Trump did them – he invoked the DPA something like 25 times. It made no consequenctial difference.
Which is to be expected, Force does not create production. Demand does.
I would refer you to the laws of supply and demand.
We needed PPE – we made PPE.
We needed TP – we made TP
We needed Hand Sanitized – we made Hand Sanitizer.
Next The reason you are clueless about Trump’s use of the DPA – is because they were ineffectual.
Free Markets solved the problems. They always do.
I would ask you for any instance ever were a managed economy did a better job of meeting needs – either normal needs or in crisis, than a free market.
Finally – the constitution never gave Congress power over health.
Commit,
“Here are the 10 countries with the largest deaths per capita (we’ve moved back to 10th place”
I should distinguish between what the scientific community does and what the media does. The media isn’t really tracking our ranking for deaths anymore because we dropped so much in the ranking; now they are focused on ‘cases’. It would be interesting to tease out the primary factors affecting the rankings; a quick examination reveals pretty disparate causes. Peru still has quite a problem with malnutrition (and now, high BMI), while many of the others look like the problems is probably mostly chronic health problems.
Thought these were both interesting:
http://www.healthdata.org/peru
“Quinoa growers have “westernized their diets because they have more profits and more income,” a Bolivian agronomist involved in the quinoa trade told The Guardian. “Ten years ago they had only an Andean diet in front of them. They had no choice. But now they do and they want rice, noodles, candies, Coke, they want everything!””
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jan/25/quinoa-good-evil-complicated
“All I meant was that info on a WP article should be sourced, and then you can use WP to identify the source and look at the source directly.”
I agree.
“Thanks for the Global Burden of Disease Report link. I’ll take a look.”
You’re welcome.
“Re: “[Trump] isn’t supposed to be [the most powerful person in the U.S.],” sure he is. What single person in the U.S. is more powerful than the President? Agreed that “There is supposed to be a balance of powers” among the three branches, but I wasn’t comparing branches, I was comparing individual people.”
That is technically true. Yet, I see far too much emphasis on this single person, not just Trump, but Presidents in general. People finger-point at that individual rather than the individuals in Congress who are the ones who decide legislation and courses of action. The finger-pointing really should be back at ourselves for not taking sufficient responsibility in the governing process.
The Executive Branch is getting over-emphasized, I think, in part, due to the undue focus on that individual. Everyone starts looking at the presidency rather than at themselves and their representatives, so authority gets inappropriately shifted towards the Executive, which not only upsets the balance of powers amongst the branches but also practically absolves us of responsibility for the mess. We like to look for a scape-goat rather than think, heaven forbid, *we* might be at fault in some way. We should not abdicate our responsibility and authority of self-governance–it will slowly cause the mechanisms of democracy to deteriorate. We should not just point to that single person for answers and authority; what responsibilities do we have? God gave us brains to figure out problems.
Ron P,
“My point was more that our president can not mandate masks in 50 states like Biden says he will do.The constitution does not give him that power.”
I agree.
I will try to continue this conversation as time permits. School starts tomorrow for my kids and I still have things to prepare, and, my garden needs attention on top of it.
PR, re: “The media isn’t really tracking our ranking for deaths anymore because we dropped so much in the ranking; now they are focused on ‘cases’,” part of my point is that there are multiple ways of looking at mortality (e.g., case fatality ratio, deaths per capita), and when it comes to deaths per capita, we are *not* dropping in the ranking. We’re currently 10th worst in the entire world, and we’ve been in that bad range for quite a while.
The distribution of cases accross the world matches the frequency of testing accross the world.
The EU has more cases and more deaths than the US.
Accross the world nearly all advanced countries show statistically worse outcomes. Do you think that C19 targets advanced countries ?
You are fixated on a statistic that has obvious problems applied globally – in fact it has obvious problems even applied within the US.
Florida has almost 50% more cases than NY, it has more people than NY, yet it has 1/3 the total deaths of NY.
Is there some magical reason that FL is more prone to C19, but far less prone to die from it ? Is DeSantis some miracle worker ?
Is the FL approach the one the entire country – the world should have taken ?
There are only a few possible explantions for the difference – NONE of which are acceptable to those on the left.
Either:
We are missing the majority of cases, therefor more testing will always produce more cases (and therefore a lower mortality rate).
C19 hates democrats and loves republicans.
Democrats have done worse with C19 than replublicans.
Or C19 is less lethal in low latititudes with more sunlight.
Or C19’s behavior does not give a rats ass about government efforts to contain it.
Or do you have some other explanation for why there are STILL far less red state deaths per capita than Blue state deaths ?
Until you are prepared to commit to an explanation of that – you should not be pointificating on C19.
I will go further and say that any expert who can not explain why the disparity in deaths between red states and blue states is not worth listening to regarding C19.
If you can not explain something so large and so fundimental – why should one trust you on anything else ?
Jim, masks help reduce droplet spread, so they help reduce spread of diseases carried on droplets. flu and yes covid
that is not political it is physics
there are a lot of trade-offs to be considered in aspects of the COVID restrictions. I am very skeptical of the value of quarantines because of the other necessary human activities that once cut off will carry their own consequential harms. but mask wearing is a pretty low hassle way of reducing covid spread among people who have to be close together.
we should get into wearing more masks when we have colds or flu too, like the asians. that’s smart and considerate of others
Fauci: “People should not be walking around with masks”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLNBw7XCM4Q
This video always brings nothing but Crickets……
On the contrary, Rhodes, people have repeatedly pointed out to you that as more research was done on the impact of mask use and the number of infections increased in the U.S., Fauci changed his mind.
You simply aren’t honest enough to admit that he changed his mind. You’re desperate to ignore all of the relevant evidence. Honest people don’t do that.
“On the contrary, Rhodes, people have repeatedly pointed out to you that as more research was done on the impact of mask use and the number of infections increased in the U.S., Fauci changed his mind.”
Actually Fauccie testified to congress regardijg why he “changed his mind” masks. Faucci as well as others deliberately diminished the benefits of masks at a time they thought there would not be sufficient masks for medical personel to prevent an run on masks.
Faucci was NOT persuaded by further studies – to my knowledge there are none.
In fact there are absolutely zero studies of the effectiveness of masks against C19 outside the laboratory – something innumerable epidemiologists have lamented. It is near certain the effectiveness will be below lab tests. It is even possible that masks as used by ordinary people will increase their rate of infection. We know that most people wearing masks touch their faces, nose, and eyes MORE with a mask on than off.
“You simply aren’t honest enough to admit that he changed his mind. ”
Faucci did not “change his mind” – he deliberately lied initially.
And that is why he is not trusted now.
“You’re desperate to ignore all of the relevant evidence.”
If such evidence exists – you should have no trouble finding it.
So where are the studies showing a significant effect in reducing mortality and infections over the long run in real world use ?
They do not exist.
“Honest people don’t do that.” – that’s right. Honest people do not sell as science something that is not actually established science.
The oppinions of “experts” is NOT science.
Fauci was lying. They wanted to hoard PPEs for health care workers. That one was just a lie.
Masks help reduce droplet spread so they help reduce covid, flu, cold, other respiratory type diseases.
don’t be fooled by Fauci’s lie about that.
I see your book is from 666 Hades. What Thoreau said it correct, man should fight for what is right not necessarily for what the government dictates. Insults why? Because you don’t agree?
If the people in WW2 acted like btb and the other democrat despots they wouldn’t have gone to war on the allies side. They would have joined the Germans.
By the Book,
“If we had more of that during WWII w might be speaking German and Japanese.”
I completely disagree–plenty of other reasons we won WWII. There were also plenty of disagreement during WWII, but most people, to my understanding, were not ordered to do things–they were encouraged. They were given good reasons and chose to support their communities–but they weren’t forced to. That said, there was plenty of propaganda and manipulation to go around, though.
“argued about the rights of people who lived on the east coast to turn on their yard lights every night, but Americans didn’t and we won.”
I disagree. I need to read about it more, but apparently people resisted the blackouts and as far as I have read, they weren’t forced to participate by government orders. And, that is not at all the reason the Allies won.
Thought this was interesting, granted, from Wikipedia:
“Blackouts were held in cities, and along the coastal areas long after any enemy threat existed; the primary purpose was psychological motivation”
‘Psychological motivation’ sounds like manipulation to me.
Prairie, I did not say or imply that citizens keeping lights off won the war. I offered that as an example of small things those not on the front lines were asked to do to contribute to the common effort. Clearly you are to self centered to help in one of the ways all citizens can with our current emergency and prefer obsessing over your right to infect others. I really have no more patience for this discussion with you. People like you, along with our President, who sabotaged his own administration’s guidelines for the pandemic, are the reason we have 1/4 of the world’s cases and 4% of it’s population, and why you can’t go to Europe with a US passport. Likely the virus and stupidity are the reasons.
By the Book,
Clearly you prefer to make assumptions about people.
I disagree with being ordered about.
I can and do make reasonable decisions about health and well-being for myself, my family, and others.
Your charged insinuations do not help the discussion at all.
“are the reason we have 1/4 of the world’s cases and 4% of it’s population,”
Not even close to the reason. It’s way more complicated but sorting out the reasons would require asking questions and challenging assumptions. We have a huge percentage of the concomitant comorbidities, crappy diets, rampant vitamin D insufficiency, not to mention all the political and corporatist shenanigans, etc etc.
Prairie, we had a long and pleasant discussion about decorum awhile back. Maybe you now better understand what I was talking about. Maybe not, but that is unimportant. Btb, Anon, Jan F. and a whole host of other names is an idiot.
Allan,
I typically have long and pleasant conversations with By the Book as well. He is coming across as rather grumpy today. Maybe I’m grumpy, too. The school year is nearly upon us and there is way too much juggling going on. Perhaps we are all stretched a little too thin right now.
Having nuanced conversations online is challenging in the best of circumstances.
Prairie, I have tried to reasonable discussions with you but I’m done, at least on this subject. I have zero sympathy or patience for your position and am not going to get it.
On another note which in my opinion goes to your oft repeated concerns about media and your thoughts that that is our main problem, you repeatedly play nice with Oky, a nasty and deranged character who wants to shoot other Americans and who gets his information from Alex Jones, the guy who publicly demonized Sandy Hook parents as part of a plot. That is your – and ours – problem not the “media”. The thing that has changed over time isn’t the WSJ, the NYTs, or AP, Reuters or local papers, it’s the prevalence of but case sources like Jones and even worse that have Facebook and You Tube outlets and spew crackpot nonsense to gullible fools. They then come here and complain about those other sources who actually have a reputation for accuracy to maintain and that reputation is the product they sell. Think about it and if you’re serious about disinformation, call it out. It’s up to us as citizens in a democracy to take responsibility for the government we have and whatever we can do about our health that we aren’t doing. These are related problems and pointing fingers at some masters, rather than ourselves, is just a salve for fools.
By the Book,
“I have tried to reasonable discussions with you but I’m done, at least on this subject.”
I’m sorry to hear that.
“I have zero sympathy or patience for your position and am not going to get it.”
I don’t understand. What are you not going to get? Do you mean not understand it or not agree with it?
“On another note which in my opinion goes to your oft repeated concerns about media and your thoughts that that is our main problem…”
That comment is chock full of at least 10 different things to unpack. That will take time and patience.
“The thing that has changed over time isn’t the WSJ, the NYTs, or AP, Reuters or local papers”
You might be right about that. Perhaps they haven’t changed; perhaps they’re still in the market of selling mis- and disinformation amidst accurate stories.
Why do you think they haven’t changed over time? Perhaps there have been changes in journalists’ perception about their role in reporting. Perhaps the relationship between reporters and government officials has changed. Ownership has certainly changed–not just the people but also the number of controlling organizations.
“those other sources who actually have a reputation for accuracy to maintain and that reputation is the product they sell.”
Then they should take that responsibility more seriously and deeply consider whether they really want to sully or tarnish that reputation. They play an important role in our self-governance. Accuracy and being unbiased are crucial to people being able to discuss issues effectively and make decisions.
“Think about it and if you’re serious about disinformation, call it out.”
I have and I do when I can.
“It’s up to us as citizens in a democracy to take responsibility for the government we have and whatever we can do about our health that we aren’t doing.”
I agree.
“These are related problems and pointing fingers at some masters, rather than ourselves, is just a salve for fools.”
I disagree somewhat. If the masters are manipulating the information such that it distorts reality, then it is difficult to take responsibility (that is, for what reality would I be taking responsibility? Reality or the distortion?). I’m not saying it cannot be done, but it will be challenging. It seems to me that revealing hidden truths would be easier to accomplish in some ways than sorting out distorted reality. The second is even worse than trying to fix a drawer of tangled necklaces.
Prairie, I am not going get “patience”.
Oh, Wapo and NYT have misreported COVID news plenty. There has been a dismal politicization of nearly all aspects of the public health response to covid. To pretend that it has only come from one sector is to be purposefully blind to reality. The Lysenkoism is running amuck and not just coming from the anti-vaxxers
I mean your precious NYT and Wapoo are still pretending there is no possibility that the covid was a lab manufactured chimera, possibly for gain of function studies, and accidentally released. this hypothesis is treated as the same as the “weaponized” hypothesis which is far more implausible. both are denounced by the big boys on the Democrat side as “conspiracy theories”
well, Luc Montaignier who won Nobel Prize for discovering HIV in 1983, said it was his team’s opinion that it was lab created. he was not the only scientist with this opinion, albeit a minority opinion. But he is the only one who was a prize winning virologist that said it. not exactly a “crank”
Of course there are not a lot of virologists in the world and even fewer who have actually conducted gain of function virus research.
and, they are a clique. they all know each other. is it POSSIBLE, that there is some bias and self protecting going on in this clique? I think perhaps so.
And the politicization showed up at LANCET in stark relief when they irresponsibly published a lame infomatics study “debunking hcq+ prophylaxis” but then they had to retract it. did wapo and NYT cover the retraction? no, just the original erroneous publication
https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-covid-19-paper-that-raised-safety-concerns-about-malaria-drugs/
the “medical establishment” are not a new Sandhedrin, even though they often act like one. they are not priests issuing dogma. they should not be treated like them either.
“Prairie, I have tried to reasonable discussions with you”
But you have not. You do not make arguments, you give sermons. You are offering religion not science, and you demand beleive.
You make no effort to persuade, to produce facts and credible arguments to support your claims – you demand adherance to your ideology.
You are not able to distinguosh between what is established as fact and what you beleive.
You fawn over experts – but only SOME experts denouncing anyone who disputes your dogma.
If you are going to fixate on experts – you should atleast grasp that there are diverse positions and rarely concensus among experts.
Though greater wisdom would require grasping that experts – even in consensus are often wrong.
” but I’m done, at least on this subject. I have zero sympathy or patience for your position and am not going to get it.”
Facts are not decided by emotions. Try elminating adjectives and emotional content from your posts and you might find there is nothing left of your viewpoint.
Who cares what you have sympathy for ? That is your business. You lack of sympathy does not give you the right to restrict the freedom of others on whim.
“On another note which in my opinion goes to your oft repeated concerns about media and your thoughts that that is our main problem, you repeatedly play nice with Oky, a nasty and deranged character who wants to shoot other Americans and who gets his information from Alex Jones, the guy who publicly demonized Sandy Hook parents as part of a plot. ”
Jones is nuts. What is extremely disturbing is that FACTS have proven him all too often right.
REgardless one can go to MSM and trivially find people as nuts as Jones prominently featured spouting nonsense exactly like Jones’s Sandy hook nonsense every night, and far less frequently right about anything.
“The thing that has changed over time isn’t the WSJ, the NYTs, or AP, Reuters or local papers, it’s the prevalence of but case sources like Jones and even worse that have Facebook and You Tube outlets and spew crackpot nonsense to gullible fools.”
Sorry BTB – but you are wrong.
NYT on occasuon publishes something excellent, but it and MSM are for the most part overrun by left wing nut young uninformed Journo school graduates educated by neomarxists who have not yet learned that Marxism always ends in copious blood – probably theirs.
You could plunk someone from NYT at random and on examination find them no better than Alex Jones.
Absolutely there are lots of crazies on Youtube and Facebook – as well has here – Start with YOU.
But we do actually live in a new era – the internet era. Whatever is spouted – by Jones or NYT or the myriads of talking heads or marxist Journo’s we can verify it. We can check the facts. We can determine the actual credibility of those making claims.
The MSM failed with the Collusion Dellusion nonsense – as did the entire left and in fact most democrats.
At one point 60% of the country bought hillariously incredible nonsense.
It was OBVIOUSLY nonsense fromt he start – atleast as nonsensical as Jones nonsense about Sandy Hook.
But Unlike Jones – this nonsense was trumpetted by the grand poobah’s of the media, and all the little poobah’s too.
This despite the fact that the claim was ludicrous on its face.
And some like you are STILL trying to sell it. Still beleiving it.
More disturbing still – the FBI knew from the start this was likely garbage, and but Mid Jan 2017 KNEW with absolute certainty that it was garbage.
Instead of coming forward in Jan 2017 and saying that the Steel Dossier is crap from start to finish and we have no other evidence of this Collusion Delusion nonense – they kept quite. Worse still they fought to keep secret the fact that this was all nonsense.
They spent years PRETENDING there was really something there – when they KNEW there was nothing.
And those like you continued to beleive abject falderall.
Please tell me what is the EVIDENCE that justified the appointment and investigation by Mueller ?
Cross Fire Hurricane DISCREDITED everything.
You want yourself and the MSM to in some way be credible ?
Then explain why the entire Mueller investigation is not a gigantic violation of the civil rights of hundreds of americans.
Why is it not worse than water gate ? Why is it not worse than spying on Martin Luther King ?
Tell me why Mueller – using mostly the same people who had already found there was nothing to investigate did not immediately stop, and publicly state exactly that – “there is nothing to investigate” ?
Nearly all Mieller’s prosecutions pleas and convictions are for failing to kowtow to an illegal investigation, and failing to provide mueller with the answers he wanted – rather than the truth.
BTB – you and your ilk are not credible.
I have no “sympathy” for your views.
Those that you deride over the MSM – as problematic as they might be, have proved more reliable than the “experts” than the MSM.
You rant about Alex Jones – and he is truly nuts. But fail to grasp Jones has been right over the past few years MORE frequently than NYT.
In fact all those FaceBook and YouTube nutjobs you criticise have been right more than the MS
“They then come here and complain about those other sources who actually have a reputation for accuracy to maintain and that reputation is the product they sell.”
And the reason that they are in decline and there audience has diminished to those like yourself is beccause they have FAILED to maintain that reputation for accuracy.
Much of the MSM has moved from being purveyors of truth to the people at large to purveyors of left wing nut conspiracy theories to an audience no different from that of Jones – except on the left.
“Think about it and if you’re serious about disinformation, call it out.”
Please do just exactly that.
You are still holding to the thinest threads to beleive that XFH, XFR and Mueller were not the most corrupt investigations in US history.
To do so you have to do the bizarest possible parsing of Mueller or Horrowitz.
Mueller is especially damning specifically because he conducted a hyper partisan investigation and FOUND nothing, and produced a 500 page report full of bile and vitriole whose substance still amounts to – there was no there there and never was.
When you can not get Mueller and his team of angry democrats to find something to hang their hat on, you have NOTHING.
And you did not have nothing – in early 2019 when the Mueller report came out – you had nothing from the start of the investigation.
We have had years of news stories that are ALL in arguably FALSE. The vast majority are based on claims that the sources – and in most cases the journalist knew or should have know were wrong.
But beyond Horrowitz and Mueller is the media itself.
You speculated on a conspiracy that involved many in the Trump Campaign a dn you spent years investigating – the FBI investigated – the CIA investigated – Mueller had access to information from NSA, Mueller investigated, Horowitz investigated, the media throughout the world investigated – and no one has ever found anything.
Mueller’s claim that the absence of proof is not proof of innocence is only credible – when every single rock was not turned over.
No investigation on earth has ever been more thorough. Not because Mueller is such a great investigator, but because nearly everyone on the planet know about this investigation, and even the smallest bit of information would have been vastly rewarded by the press. By Mueller.
Mueller found nothing – because there was nothing to find.
After the most thorough investigation ever – you are still not prepared to accept that.
Alex Jones is less of a nut than you.
“It’s up to us as citizens in a democracy”
Still not a democracy.
“to take responsibility for the government we have and whatever we can do about our health that we aren’t doing.:”
Since when do we need government to take care of out health ?
Outside of total isolation I can not tell you anything that will with certainty protect you from C19 – and there is no expert in the planet who can either.
But I can list dozens of things you can do for yourself to reduce your odds, – and you can PERSONALLY choose the level or risk you are willing to tolerate vs the amount of securty you want.
Government can not prevent you from dying in a car accident tomorow – but there are many many things you can do on your own to reduce the odds of that. Starting with not driving.
You do not have to do any of those. You are free to choose what you are prepared to give up to be safe from a car accident.
C19 is no different.
“I disagree with being ordered about.”
Nobody likes it Prairie but most of us understand it’s not about us all the time.
Are you a teenager? Grow up.
PS on your “other reasons”. You advance that above. That goes to mortality, not cases. Cases goes to exposure and people who don’t like to be “ordered about” are primary causes of that number.
By the Book,
““I disagree with being ordered about.”
“Nobody likes it Prairie but most of us understand it’s not about us all the time.”
That is not how a democracy works. Representatives are selected from amongst the people for the purpose of discussing the governance of the wider community. Laws are discussed amongst the representatives who then vote on it. If it passes, the leader of the executive branch (who was also selected from amongst the people) signs it, thus making it official. However, if the representatives and executive leader made bad decisions about a law, then judges can determine its constitutionality. No one is ordered about. Issues are discussed and mutually decided upon.
“Cases goes to exposure and people who don’t like to be “ordered about” are primary causes of that number.”
You have no idea that your assertion is true whatsoever. It is conjecture. Exposure is also immaterial if the person responds to SARS-Cov2 the same way they’d respond to any other cold virus.
If frogs had wings they wouldn’t be bumping their a.s all the time. …..
Carry on
BTB, you should read this page in its entirety:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
Pay special attention to the “Provisional Death Counts” chart.
The tests are useless. Which is why there are so many false positives.
Your visions of victory based on Covid are delusional.
Thanks to your Democrat leadership condoning Antifa/BLM violence, Joe Hiden will lose.
Are you a toddler? Grow up.
None of us like the fact that there are no guarantees in the world – but Adults learn to accept that.
To accept that their parents, teachers, government con not protect them from all – or even must of the bad things in the world.
You constantly demand that Trump as president give orders that will magically make us all safe.
Yet there is no actual evidence that any such thing is possible.
Neither you, nor any of your vaunted experts can explain the difference in mortality rates of C19 between Red and Blue states.
This difference is enormous – about a factor of 5.
You would think if there was something that would reduce the death rate per capita by a factor of 5 we would be urgently looking to figure out what caused that.
There is nothing else with so profound an effect.
HCQ has a tiny fraction of that effect.
Steriods has a tiny fraction of that effect.
Convelescent Plasma has a tiny fraction of that effect.
Remedsivir has a tiny fraction of that effect.
Social distancing has a tiny fraction of that effect.
Masks has a tiny fraction of that effect.
All our efforts combined do not reach 20% of that effect.
So you would think we would want to figure out what is causing a 500% reduction in mortality.
If you are claiming to be an expert and you can not offer a credible explanation for the one HUGE difference in mortality – then why should anyone listen to you – why are you entitled to be called an expert ?
Why isn;’t some random joe off the street as credible as someone who can not explain the single largest impact on C19 ?
Why should I listen to what any expert says on masks or anything else – if they can not explain the difference in mortality between red and blue states?
Which is it you care about ? How many people get a disease so mild they do not even know they have it,
or how many people die ?
Our government does nothing to protect us from the common cold – though plenty of people actually die from it.
We care about C19 because it kills people.
“They were given good reasons and chose to support their communities–but they weren’t forced to.”
16 million people served in the Armed Forces in WW2. Some volunteered, but many were drafted. Surely you know this. According to the WW2 Museum, “By the end of the war in 1945, 50 million men between eighteen and forty-five had registered for the draft.” That’s more than 1/3 of the total population at the time.
You know perfectly well I was talking about the civilian population or regular people. Even regarding the draft, there was no major pushback against it as there was with the Vietnam War because support for the war and the war effort was very high. I have a family member who lied about his age so he could join the military back then.
To my knowledge, people weren’t forced to grow Victory gardens. They weren’t forced to provide scrap tin.
Forcing people to do things is counter to democracy and will lead to resentment. Neither is good for our country.
People who register for the draft ARE “regular people.” People who are drafted ARE “regular people.”
Requiring people to wear masks is a whole lot less onerous than requiring people to register for the draft, show up for medical evaluations, and perhaps be drafted.
Your belief that “Forcing people to do things is counter to democracy and will lead to resentment” is strange. Laws are part of living in a constitutional representative democracy. People are required to cover their genitals in public. People are required to register their cars and have insurance. There are oodles of examples of legal requirements that most people in society agree are reasonable.
Commit, the outrage of stopping for red lights is what gets my goat.
Yeah, BtBm, red lights and having a lower speed limit near schools. It’s an outrage.
Same hyperbole.
Same repetition of lies.
The fact I have to wear clothes at all in public is just a sheer outrage.
That dress looks nice on you.
One step away from the train to the camps!
ONE of the criteria for the justification of infringements on rights is PROVING that your infringement is actually effective.
I would love to see your data on the effectiveness of red lights – that is one I am familar with and we have large amounts of annecdotal evidence and some studies that intersecutons without lights work better and safer.
Are school zones different ? I do not know. Again show me the data.
Regarldless traffic lights and school zones are NOT justifications for whatever infringements you wish to impose that have NOTHING to back them up.
You claimed (dishonestly) that Faucci was persuaded by new data. Then produce the data ?
If you want to use force to infringe on the rights of others – you should have data.
Otherwise – why doesn;t the US adopt Sharia law and engage in genital mutilation of all women.
Those religions and countries that do so believe there is a benefit.
What distinguishes their beleif in their laws from yours ?
Go to YouTube – there is plenty of video (and data) that shows that most intersections work BETTER after the lights fail.
This has actually been known by traffic engineers for a long time and has resulted in slow changes in highway designs to eliminate traffic signals and move to structural changes in the layout of roads that work without signals.
These have been incredibly successful, but are not popular – because people are used to lights and mistakenly beleive that intersections without rhem are more dangerous.
No, traffic engineers have not “known (this fantasy of John Say’s) for a long time” because it is BS. Round-abouts are preferable in many instances but space is required and initial cost is high. Multu-lane intersections without traffic cops are dangerous nightmares when power is out.
“No, traffic engineers have not “known (this fantasy of John Say’s) for a long time” because it is BS. ”
Because you say so ?
“Round-abouts”
I do not recall specifically noting round-abouts.
There are two facets to my claims. The first is that with few exceptions EXISTING roads and intersections work better without automatic controls. Not only do Traffic engineers know this – but Nobel Prize winner Elenor Olstrom found this is myriads of other supposed “tragedy of the commons” situations. What she found is that when left alone – without govenrment people respolved these types of problems on their own.
The second is that it is actually possible to DESIGN traffic systems in ways that reflect and expand on people’s natural tendencies to resolve things on their own.
“are preferable in many instances but space is required and initial cost is high.”
Round-abouts are but a single design solution, and contra your claim they need not be large and expensive. There is one near me that is about the diameter of a car, and it cost less than a traffic signal.
But that is not the only thing I am talking about
“Multu-lane intersections without traffic cops are dangerous nightmares when power is out.”
Because you say so ? In fact the OPPOSITE is true.
Much of the evidence that persuaded engineers that automatic control devices were truly net negative was the way people handled intersections when power was lost.
Here is a complex intersection during a power outage. No accidents, traffic is actually flowing BETTER than normal. most people slow down a little. but I did not see anyone delayed by more than a few seconds, Lights would have delayed most people LONGER.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O_SjfKtAWk
That said it is often true that sudden power outages result in accidents as people learn to adjust. But iltimately people do adjust and the net result is that traffic works better without the signals.
MIT has already determined that self driving cars will not need traffic controls. And that traffic will run better.
That pretty much establishes that if humans make wise choices traffic controls are not needed.
I would further note that my POINT was to attack your nonsensical claim that central control of a vast assortment of problem is either net positive or necessary.
The debate over Traffic controls is merely to point out that you have internalized myriads of assumptions that you have NEVER actually thought about.
You chose to fight over Traffic controls – apparently you think that is your strongest counter – maybe it is.
But you left car seat laws and myriads of other stupid regulations on the floor.
Learn to think. Quit accepting what you are told.
How things are at the moment is NOT the only way to solve a problem. It is often not the best way, Or not the best way for everyone.
Nor is the current status quo the status quo in the past.
The EPA and govenrment environmental rules are relatively new – few existed for almost half my lifetime.
Yet safety and the environment has improved pretty much uniformly.
Historically the largest polluter is government. The worst pollution events occur during wartime.
But for the recovery from the ecological disaster of WWII the 20th century is a continuous trend of improving health, safety and environment.
With no corelation at all to government regulations.
The fundimental driver of improvement has been Maslow’s heirarchy of needs.
When we have sufficient wealth to meet low order (more important) needs we expend effort on higher order needs.
Cave men burned dung, peat and sticks for heat. In 15th century london Sewage was sold as a fuel. We switched to coal because it was cleaner – even though it cost more – when we could afford it,. We switched to oil again at greater expense because it was cleaner still, we switched to NG and to electric again despite higher costs because they are cleaner still.
I own a house built in the 1900’s with coal bins under the porch. Even today coal is the cheapest form of energy.
All these shifts occured without government involvment – because humans wanted cleaner energy.
We are seeing similar changes throughout the world today.
50 years ago most to the world still used sticks and dung and peat for heat. Maybe coal.
But life expecance throughout the world is rising – because even poor people can afford better medical care and because they can afford better heat and power.
Getting rid of wood, dung, peat and coal for heat and getting even primative medical care – cleanlieness primarily produces a society with life expectancy into the 70’s.
Again government nowhere to be found.
There is a small but critical contribution that limited government makes to improving the human condition.
Beyond that more govenrment is net nagative, and the larger it gets the more net negative it is.
I am not looking for a holy war over traffic lights of the requirement to wear cloths.
WE can fight those battles later when we have recouped more important liberties.
I am merely pointing out that there are myriads of these myths that a plethora of things would not work but for government intervening in the way it currently does. But in the real world the evidence does not support that.
Much of what government does that we beleive is necescary is either ineffective or happened without government. In many cases government efforts to make us safer have made things worse.
As an example car seats for kids over 2 have a record WORSE than kids without car seats.
This is especially true for kids in the rear seat of cars where kids over 2 are more likely to be injured or die in a car seat than with no protection at all – not even a seat belt.
Draft requistration is far less onerous than wearing a mask all the time.
The former occurs once, and requires little more than filling out a form.
The latter is being ordered for all in public – despite a lack of evidence that it is effective.
As to getting a draft physical – that is NOT the norm. it is NOT being required today. It has NOT been required for most of US history.
Further it only impacts a small part of the population.
And finally the draft is their to provide the resources for government to fullfill a fundimental duty – to secure the rights of citizens from infringement by invaders.
A foreign invasion is not a flu that will kill some of us but most of us will live through and go on with our lives as before.
If we are successfully invaded – we will be LESS free than before – our RIGHTS will be substantially reduced.
Government exists specifically to protect our rights from those who would take them away by force – whether criminals or invaders.
It does not exist to perform an impossible task at which it is innept and protect us from disease.
I oddly agree with the left that Trump’s handling of C19 has been an abject failure. But not because he failed to thwart the disease – the actual evidence is overwhelming, that was not possible. But because he actively participated in the destruction of our rights in the failed effort to thwart C19.
It is increasingly self evident – though it was knowable at the start, that none of the infringements on our rights have had any effect.
WE have tanked the economy interfered with peoples jobs, and freedom, and waster trillions of dollars for NOTHING – so that government could FEEL like it had accomplished something.
And Trump is alteast partly complicit in that.
Yes, we have laws. The foundation of law is to sacrifice a SINGLE right – that of initiating force against others, in return for the protection of other rights.
We are not a representative democracy – the US is a Republic.
AS Franklin answered when asked if we had a government and what form “A Republic if you can keep it”.
Those trying to sell democracy are trying to destroy the actual form of constitutional government our founders gave us.
The more democratic the US becomes the more we expect of govenrment and the more prone government is to fail.
I oppose laws requiring people to cover their genitals in public.
That does not mean I think going arround completely naked is wise, only that it is not govenrments business.
What purpose do you think laws barring being naked in public serve ?
Do they make us safer ?
Imagine everyone in NYC walking around Times Square nekkid on New Year’s Eve. Do you think they would do that a second year?
I do not care if you walk arround naked or not.
I doubt people would do so on New Years in Time Square – they would freeze their asses off.
If Heroin were legal would you shoot up ? I wouldn’t.
Getting government out of something does not mean radical changes in human behavior.
Pot is legal in parts of the country – has everyone become a stoner ?
We are fighting constantly over masks here.
I vigorously oppose mask mandates. Nor am I convinced they are effective.
But I wear a mask when I am near people outside my home. And I would do so even if not required.
Further I stay farther away from people than I used to.
I do these by choice. I weigh the costs and risks myself, and make my own decisions.
I think we should be allowed to be naked in public.
I think very few people would choose that.
I oppose laws requiring the registration of cars – do you have to register your bicycle ? Horse ? Teddy Bear ?
I oppose laws requiring insurance of any kind.
At the same time – if you cause harm to another – even accidentally, you are obligated to make them whole.
The fundimentals of law – centuries old basic law – the core of criminal, civil and tort law meets all the requirements necescary for society.
There is little more required of govenrment than the proper administration of those laws.
“Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice; all the rest being brought about by the natural course of things. All governments which thwart this natural course, which force things into another channel, or which endeavour to arrest the progress of society at a particular point, are unnatural, and to support themselves are obliged to be oppressive and tyrannical.”
Adam Smith
It is the laws you cite that created the stupid presumption that there is nothing you can not regulate.
The 9th amendment is real and was intentional, as was the priviledges and immunities clause of both the constitution and the 14th amendment.
The domain of govenrment is SMALL, the Domain of liberty is infinite.
Bikes used to be registered and still may be is smaller communities. Horses are registered. Some teddy bears are registered, they are collector items.
Did you miss the part where I said “Do You Have to” ?
If you wish to register your teddy bear or Horse or Bicycle – I have no problems with that.
Mine are not.
Government is necescary where force is required.
Problems that do not require force do not require government.
At least some of Twitter is thanking Nancy. If Nancy can do it without a mask, so can they. And a GoFundMe has been set up for Erica, who seems most upset about the mask.
And folks, Nancy did not just get a blow-out, she got her roots done.
Same hairdresser as Trump?
….Nancy did not just get a blow-out, she got her roots done…..
OMG!!!! She had her roots done!!!!
disgusting.
Pelosi is 80 and as gray as I am. She NEEDS those roots taken care of.
It’s who you know, not what you know.
Even though I might vote for Biden, I like the name Bumble Butt Biden.