Pelosi Claims “Tremendous Mandate” Despite House Losses And Ongoing Vote Count

Speaker Nancy Pelosi has announced her campaign to be reelected Speaker of the United States House of Representatives despite losing seats against one of the least popular presidents in history. This is not the first such loss for Pelosi who remains one of the most polarizing and unpopular figures in American politics. Pelosi claimed that former Vice President Joe Biden was not only already the “President-Elect” but insisted that she and Biden had a “tremendous mandate” despite the election blows in the House and the close presidential election. She insisted that she is “part of that mandate” from the American people.

Pelosi put on a bizarrely gleeful press conference to a largely supportive press corps despite the possible loss of roughly 10 seats in an election that Democrats and the media predicted would be a blue wave. Indeed, Pelosi was supposed to be picking up that number of seats while Democrats were given an over 70 percent chance of retaking the Senate.  As for the presidential election, we are still counting votes in states with a razor-thin margin — an election that the media predicted would be a blowout for Biden.  Instead, the country was divided almost down the middle after the Democrats outspent Republicans. Not only did Biden spend far more than Trump but donors like Michael Bloomberg dumped a $100 million in Florida alone and still lost the state by a good margin.

Nevertheless, Pelosi claimed that the election gave Biden and herself a “tremendous mandate.”  Indeed, she added:  “I think Joe Biden has . . .  a bigger mandate than John F. Kennedy.”  Where is Senator Lloyd Bentsen when we need him?


The reference to Kennedy’s win in 1960 was also curious since that election may have been secured by widespread fraud in Illinois and Texas. To this day, many historians question whether Kennedy actually won the election.  Hardly the election you want to reference when the Democratic Party is opposing court review of close races in places like Nevada.

What was particularly striking in how Pelosi heralded Biden as a leader who will unite rather than divide and show tolerance for opposing views. It is a value that Pelosi has admired from a safe distance as one of the most polarizing figures in American politics. Indeed, some of us called for her resignation after her outrageous and juvenile protest during the State of the Union address, including ripping up the address from the Speaker’s Chair.

One threat for Pelosi could come from the small number of moderate Democrats remaining in the caucus combining with the Black Caucus to install the first African American Speaker. Ironically, the Republicans would likely prefer to take Pelosi in the position, particularly with the runoffs in Georgia in January.

Obviously, Biden was not the “President-Elect” and there is no “tremendous mandate” for either side. Yet, while hitting President Donald Trump with “disinformation” labels for his post-election comments about effort to steal the election, Twitter and Facebook were entirely happy with the obviously untrue statements from Pelosi about Biden being elected. They also did not strike out at Democratic statements that Trump was trying to steal the election. Indeed, one of Facebook’s much maligned “Oversight Board members” immediately celebrated the defeat of Trump as the ending “the wave of hate and intolerance” across the globe.

Pelosi’s comments would ordinarily be viewed as delusional from anyone else. But this is Washington. They were not delusional; just dishonest. That is never a problem in Washington. The Democrats may well reelect Pelosi because polls and seats change but the establishment does not. Even with dissenters objecting to the radicalization of the rhetoric in the election, Pelosi has the edge because she has the goods to deliver for votes. Members reelected her after the disastrous 2016 election despite polls showing that she was radioactive as a leader, the second most unpopular Democrat after Hillary Clinton herself. The fact is that these elections are not about the voters or even the party. It is about power and who can use it and who can keep it. Pelosi can engage in utter fantasies about “tremendous mandates” to dupe voters while offering juicy committee assignments and campaign donations to entice members. Washington will soon be back to normal with a tremendous mandate for the resilience of the establishment.

348 thoughts on “Pelosi Claims “Tremendous Mandate” Despite House Losses And Ongoing Vote Count”

  1. For those unfamiliar with the concept “down-ballot,” it includes state legislative and governor races.

    As this piece from the NYT notes, the promised blue wave turned into a mirage: “Democrats’ ‘Blue Wave’ Crashed in Statehouses Across the Country”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/04/us/election-state-house-legislature-governors.html

    There have been mandate elections in the past, e.g., 1964, 1980, 1994. But 2020 was not one of them. In addition to their miserable showing in the state legislatures, democrats lost seats in the House, and the republicans will probably retain control of the Senate.

    Biden did not have any coattails because he is an empty suit.

    1. Sam, those who win the vote – no, not you Trump – are judged to have a mandate which is usually weighted by how big their margin.is. Biden will probably have a margin upward of 6 million votes, and that’s a pretty good mandate. The GOP will have a slim Senate margin – though less total votes than Democratic candidates – and a slim mandate while House Democrats will have a slim mandate. Of the 3 institutions. the President-elect is the only one who has a clear and significant mandate as judged historically.(Trump never had one) Based on the other institutions and the total vote quantity, Biden is acting wisely to emphasize cooperation and bi-partisan governance.

  2. Jonathan: Donald Trump is a dead man walking. While playing golf when his empire is crumbling around him Trump continues his own “delusional” claims that when he is escorted out of the White House it will only be because of “massive voter fraud”. His spurious claims have gone no where in the courts. But you have contributed to the Trumpworld echo chamber by arguing 2 days ago in a column that the Trump campaign may have a legitimate claim in Nevada which it claims shows “fraudulent voting by non-residents”. Trump lost this argument in court so it made a last ditch criminal referral to the DOJ. claiming over 3,000 votes in Nevada were fraudulent. In support of their claim the Trump lawyers apparently gained unauthorized access to NCOALink, the Postal Service change-of-address database, a violation of federal laws. I don’t know what purpose this serves because Nevada residents don’t need to provide an official US Postal Service address in order to vote. This hail Mary junk referral wouldn’t be touched by any reputable law firm so the Trump campaign chose the “Weir Law Group” to sign off on the letter. The “Group” is a one-woman shop in Las Vegas operated by Shana Weir who has no website and whose only claim to fame is she is an official delegate for the Nevada GOP. When the dust settles this referral and the claims of voter fraud in Nevada and elsewhere by Trump will disappear into the ether.

    1. Donald Trump is a dead man walking.

      Dennis, Donald, Barack, Hillary, Bill C, George Bush (both), they all played Americans. Question is: why did you drink the kool aid by either “party?

      try taking Zofran, 32 mg might work for your emesis.

    1. First They are still illegals like much of their party hardly votes. The Squat and Pelosi who slid them in are still criminal felons.
      There is nothing to sujpport because they are illegals and worse for them Just Facts just brought in investigative proof tha Bidens votes use illegals to get over the top.

      Can’t be seated if their are not enough votes so it’s SCOTUS time. on the questioin of proven invalid votes. intentionally used by a ‘certain’ party hardly.

  3. Biden declared the victor. No post-election riots (except in Portland, where they riot whenever the sun rises in the east).

    I guess that tells you who the barbarians supported. And who supported them.

    1. Not true and it’s going to the Supreme court the plaintiff is JustFacts who will provide proof from their investigation Biden won with illegal votes.

      Can’t be inauguarated with illegal votes. Now it’s up to SCOTUS.

      1. The case wouldn’t start at the Supreme Court, Michael. It would start in one or more state courts. Where is the plaintiff filing suit?

  4. This is simply a culmination of the past four years of increasingly bald-faced attempts to take out the President on the flimsiest of excuses. The whole country is in pandemic mode, real or fake as it may be. And yet, up to the moment when Trump suddenly had a clear path to victory, votes were being counted and states were being called just like they have been on every election night in history. And then everything shut down. I sat at my laptop for 12 hours and not a single number moved. Why? Because they were manufacturing votes to steal the election. There was no subtlety about it. How come it took Florida and Ohio one day to tally votes while it took PA and Georgia the better part of a week? We deserve to know the truth. The problem, as always, is precedent. If we could be sure that this would be the last and only time an election were to be stolen from us in plain sight, maybe Trump supporters would be more willing to accept it and move on. But that’s not how it tends to work. The real mandate here, which has yet to be ratified, is a mandate for cheating on a colossal scale and for subverting the will of the American people.

    1. What website were you looking at when you say that not a single number moved?

      I looked at sites like https://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/2020-election-results-coverage/, and they showed the numbers were moving. You can still scroll back to see their live coverage comments throughout the night.

      The reason that it takes different states different amounts of time to finish counting is that each state has its own laws about counting, and each state has different numbers of mail-in votes to count. FL allows mail-in ballot processing and counting begin before 11/3 and PA does not. See the state by state information here –
      https://ballotpedia.org/When_states_can_begin_processing_and_counting_absentee/mail-in_ballots,_2020#Voting_requirements_and_deadlines

      Don’t buy into Trump’s lies about the election being stolen.

      1. Insteas you can buy into JustFacts.com who came forward today with investigative evidence Biden/Harris won with illegal votes and now it’s up to probably the Supreme Court. You lost again snowflake. voting requirement require VALID votes

    2. deb: “This is simply a culmination of the past four years of increasingly bald-faced attempts to take out the President on the flimsiest of excuses.”

      Yes. It was four years of soft coups — engineered by those who believe that the ends justifies the means. If they didn’t have double standards, they wouldn’t have any, at all.

  5. The Shill’s Response To House Troll

    Here, the hated Shill fires back at bellicose gray Anonymous’. The latter claims this election was rigged by the ‘Democratic Machine’, or something to that effect.

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Anonymous, if you’re right, Republicans will go to court with a case that sticks.

    But what have we seen in terms of actual evidence? ..Nothing..! Mainstream media took its good sweet time naming Biden the winner. So Trumpers would have 3 days to digest what happened. Trump himself was given time to concede defeat.

    Instead Trump has spun a web of lies to undermine Biden’s victory. Keep in mind Trump lost the Popular Vote 4 years ago. Trump’s fluke of a victory then was far more peculiar than Joe Biden’s today. Biden’s Popular Vote lead has held steady at 4.1 million since Friday.

    So why would Trump expect to ‘win’ this election? We have a pandemic he ignores! Denial on that scale worries most voters. The pandemic has hit small town America. It’s no longer a ‘blue state problem’. Covid kills the old and weak everywhere it goes.

    Beyond the pandemic, Trump created a backlash by sabotaging the Post Office. His main thrust has been slandering Mailed-In Ballots. How dumb! Trump was telling Americans to stand in long voting lines. “Forget the pandemic”, Trump seemed to growl, “Stand in line, loser. I don’t trust your vote”.

    Talk about dumb messages, you can’t get worse than that. “I don’t trust your vote”, was Trump’s effective slogan. ..That, or “Stand in line”.

    The fact that Trump got 48% of the Popular Vote should give him something to brag about. But Trump is never happy! There’s always a grievance with Donald Trump. Trump deserved to go out like Jimmy Carter. But Bernie Bros spared Trump that humiliation.

    By stoking riots the Bernie Bros did everything they could to re-elect Donald Trump. “Defund The Police” will go down in history as the stupidest slogan ever coined on an election year. The fact that Joe Biden triumphed ‘despite’ the Bernie Bros is the most under-reported story of this news cycle.

    1. Trump got the largest percentage ever for a Republican of the black vote, latino vote, Jewish vote, LGBTQ vote, and nearly 71 million votes. That’s a lot of ‘chumps’….

      We are still counting, but it appears Joe Biden got the largest percentage of the ‘dead’ vote in history.

      1. If you have evidence of a dead person having voted, turn it over to authorities. If you don’t, then don’t imagine it.

        1. No Paint Chips, we are going to follow your ilks method and just make allegations first. You know, imagine wrongdoing and hope at some point the evidence appears.

          Nah, just kidding. Unlike you, we have a functioning left-half of our brain and for now, we still believe in the law.

            1. No doubt the truth bores you. What I stated about you and your Lefty friends is absolutely true and the facts/evidence prove it. You’ve earned the title.

                1. Michael, ‘Justfacts’ is backing up ‘what’??? You don’t even say! Which indicates how people inside the rightwing bubble are mainly talking to themselves.

            2. your lack of facts and sources is proof of weakness especially y0u got shot out to the saddle by Just Facts today there is no decared winner at this point. Justfacts.com look for todays offer of proof of use of illegal ballots by illegal voters. That might change the houses too. a few more in the Reps to help get rid of Pelosi and a few more in the Senate to give them a greater edge.

        2. I wil take that challenge. JustFacts.com just released and it’s avail here if not elsewhere Biden WAS elected with illegal votes. Goes to the Supreme Court with a request for immediate action on their part JustFacts has it’s finding ready to present to the court and the statement fo rthe ocurt to consider is if one is elected with illegal votes. They may not be inaugurated. ‘suck it up snow flake you were just triple downed and challenged to come up with some ‘FACTS for a change not a PCRap pile of BS.

          1. Micahel. lets figure out how we can place that bet and remain anonymous, or we can just place a gentlemen’s bet here for all posters to see and witness. I’ll bet you that the legal challenges will be thrown out and Biden will remain our president elect. You on?

            As to your JustFacts “study” it is non-specific to this election and based on a “study” based on a 2012 Harvard/YouGov study. Unfortunately for you, the JF “study” was debunked by one of the professors who worked on the 2012 study and you can read how and why in detail here:

            https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/donald-trump-illegal-votes-evidence-debunked-214487

            There is a zero chance that a court would accept a challenge based on a particular and discredited reading of an earlier study about national data and try to apply it to specific state election results. You’re dreaming. Wake up!

  6. Vice President-elect Harris and President-elect Biden deserve respect for their historic accomplishment and prayers for their good governance. Their speeches tonight were responsible and effective.

    1. Jonathan, I agree the speeches were responsible but effective I doubt. The fate of our American politics depends largely upon Rupert Murdoch’s decision regarding the future direction of Fox. If he instructs his network to abandon Trumpism, it remains to be seen what Ingraham, Carlson and Hannity will do. I suspect that the 3 of them may join another network or start one with the Trump family to fight the lost cause. I would think those 3 will stick together because if one or 2 left, then they would be competing against one another which would undermine Trumpism. In this culture war, you have to choose a side, and the Republican Party may be split between the Trump dead-enders and Republicans who privately want Trump to fade away like Palin but dare not say so publicly until it becomes evident that Trump was a criminal all along. Many Republicans secretly desire Trump to be publicly discredited to give them an excuse to disown him. It will be interesting to watch if Trump will continue to exert control over the party or, rather, lose his grip as he makes more embarrassing and irresponsible tweets as well as his legal liabilities finally catch up with him.

    2. It isn’t over they are being investigated for use of illegal votes it’s in todays news at least in this media. who will be the complainant with proof.

    3. Judging from the response from justfact.com you might also add the words worthless. or meaningless. They aren’t winners yet.

      1. Michael –

        As to your JustFacts “study” it is non-specific to this election and based on a “study” based on a 2012 Harvard/YouGov study. Unfortunately for you, the JF “study” was debunked by one of the professors who worked on the 2012 study and you can read how and why in detail here:

        https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/donald-trump-illegal-votes-evidence-debunked-214487

        There is a zero chance that a court would accept a challenge based on a particular and discredited reading of an earlier study about national data and try to apply it to specific state election results. You’re dreaming. Wake up!

  7. Why is Kamala speaking BEFORE the president-elect? Very odd and very telling. Biden and Harris are speaking from Wilmington DE right now. Does anyone find it odd that instead of Joe Biden, president-elect being the first speaker, they send out Kamala? We are not stupid. This is the most dishonest, deceptive Trojan Horse presidential ticket ever.

    1. She was REJECTED by Democrat primary voters and here they are shoving their IDENTITY politics down our throats. It matters not that she was rejected by Dem voters, what matters MORE is that she fits the mold: she is female, part black/asian. CHECK it off the list.

      btw Kamala, America is NOT ready for the likes of YOU. Dream on Mamala. We are coming for you.

      1. School choice is what the people want. It may be a good day for educators as Joe said, but not the families who want school choice. He is beholden to the teachers unions and will prevent families from having the school choice President Trump was working for. What a sad day for the country.

        You outright Steal an election and then stand up there and tell us this is the Time to heal? You LIE Joe Biden. We are coming for you in 2022 and 2024….but sadly, most people don’t even believe you will make it till 2024.

        “Folks!!” “Folks” Oh Shut up with the folksy crap Joe Biden. You stole the election. You have no mandate you old senile fool.

        1. Joe Biden didn’t even have to campaign. He just sat there in his basement and let the corrupt Democrat machine, and the corrupt biased fake news media do all the work for him.

          Joey, keep the faith. Joey, God love ya. You old senile corrupt fool. But we see your freshly Botoxed face there on stage. Injections galore for old Joe.

          Welcome to a season of gridlock in Washington DC.

          1. Anon: “He just sat there in his basement . . .”

            Exactly right.

            If the results stand, he’ll be the first “not” president in American history. He won his party’s nomination because he was “not” Bernie Sanders. And (potentially) the presidency because he was “not” Trump.

            He’s a blowhard who makes an empty suit look full-figured.

            1. “We are the hollow men
              We are the stuffed men
              Leaning together
              Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
              Our dried voices, when
              We whisper together
              Are quiet and meaningless
              As wind in dry grass
              Or rats’ feet over broken glass
              In our dry cellar”

              “The Hollow Men”, T.S. Eliot

              ‘Rage, rage against the dying of the light…’

                1. Yes, it is haunting, Kurtz. And, a warning: do not become hollow.

                  I ended my post not with Eliot but with Dylan Thomas.

                  Peace.

        2. ‘AOC calling for enemies lists. Buttigieg staff target-listing sitting federal judges. Jennifer Rubin calling to destroy all Republicans and leave no survivors.

          Election Day was just 4 days ago.’

          sure, a time for healing….the leftist, fascist way.

          1. “It’s not only that DonaldTrump has to lose, his enablers have to lose. We have to collectively burn down the Republican Party. We have to level them. Because if there are survivors….they will do it again.” ~Jennifer Rubin on MSNBC

            1. True enough. It’s humiliating for one to have to admit that he fell for a conman like those students who were suckered into Trump “University.” When Trump has been prosecuted for his alleged crimes by state jurisdictions, if not federal ones, and if convicted, sooner or later, we will hear you acknowledge that Trump was a conman. Which is not to say that his presidency was not without merit- his autocratic administration will stand the test of time as a lesson on how NOT to run a country and a warning to all future generations how lucky America was that it dodged this autocratic bullet.

            2. As Ari Fleischer put it: ‘Resist. Overturn. Boycott. Surveil. Leak. Impeach. And now they tell us it’s time to heal. Where were they for the last four years?’

        3. Hey Troll, how does a senile old fool ‘steal an election’?? Or more importantly, how did Trump lose to a ‘senile old fool’?

          1. Hey troll, we are watching the propaganda machine at work trying to make us roll over and take it. Newsflash: Joe Biden did not “win.” Trump didn’t lose.

          2. You think anyone believes that the doddering old senile fool who told us “if you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black!” is the candidate who got the most votes of any candidate in history, including Barack Obama’s historic election in 2008? Here’s a clue: Nope. Didn’t happen.

          3. ‘Media saying that Biden was the most popular candidate in US history, beating Obama’s election record by 4.5M votes. Biden got fewer votes than Obama or Hillary in the major cities of EVERY SINGLE STATE except the major cities in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Wisconsin.’

            As Sharyl Attkisson put it: “What’s wrong with Biden being much more popular in Michigan, Penn., Georgia, and Wisconsin?”

            THAT is the question. This election is not over.

            1. To be clear: Biden got fewer votes than Obama or Hillary in the major cities of every single state EXCEPT the major cities in MICHIGAN, PA, GEORGIA and WISCONSIN.’

              They think we are not paying attention. We are. They think we will capitulate. We won’t.

              1. Do you have a link to back up your claim that “Biden got fewer votes than Obama or Hillary in the major cities of every single state EXCEPT the major cities in MICHIGAN, PA, GEORGIA and WISCONSIN”?

          4. Anon: “how does a senile old fool ‘steal an election’??”

            He didn’t. He’s merely Caligula’s horse. It’s the Caligulas who rigged the election.

        4. “School choice is what the people want. ”

          It is NOT. I live in a very conservative county and people are, overall, happy with the self-governance system of their school districts.

          I do NOT want corporatist governance. I want self-governance!

          1. It is NOT. I live in a very conservative county and people are, overall, happy with the self-governance system of their school districts.

            Self-governance begins and ends with the freedom to choose. The moment you lose that right, is the moment you lose self from governance.

            1. Olly,
              Taxpayers are not being represented regarding their tax dollars. Their money is disappearing into charter schools with little to no oversight as to how it is being spent. Those things are not public, unlike at a public school. Parents of students may be choosing, but many may not be taxpayers. Taxpayers are not getting a choice at all.

              Self-governance is not exactly about choice. It is about having a voice, being part of the decision process in how things are run, how money is spent, how laws are made.

              Neither parents nor taxpayers have a say, really, in how charter schools are run or how the money is spent. It is a private business whose last word falls to the owner.

              1. Self-governance is not exactly about choice. It is about having a voice, being part of the decision process in how things are run, how money is spent, how laws are made.

                That’s cute. We also have inalienable rights and no one is above the law. We just went through a general election. How’s that voice working?

                Given your attitude regarding school choice, I would not be surprised to discover you have a financial interest of some kind in public education.

                1. Olly,
                  I have said repeatedly that I do NOT have a financial interest in public education! I am a homeschool mom. Two of my older kids are in public school, the two younger at home. I want public education education to stay strong and vibrant for all kids. Lots of other parents in my community want the same.

                  Should I flip that around and insinuate you have a financial interest in charter schools?!

                  I am watching and waiting. As far as I can tell, the system is still working fine. If fraud is alleged, then what follows are investigations and lawsuits. If computer errors occur, then those get corrected. It ain’t over and the system is still in process.

                  1. My 2 older children went through the public school system in the 90’s and early 2000’s. My 12 year was in a private Christian school and for the last 3 years he’s been homeschooled. Billions of taxpayer $ have been pumped into the CA public education system with diminishing returns for student performance and increasing returns for pay and benefits. I want public education, not this public education system.

                    1. Olly,
                      Do you attend school board meetings and school board committee meetings? If so, do you speak up at those meetings? Have you talked to other concerned parents in your community? Have you looked at the HS course offerings? Have you talked with the curriculum and instruction director(s)? Have you ascertained that there is indeed inadequate education, poor test scores, or both? What are the underlying reasons for these problems?

                      I don’t mean to pepper you with questions; I am trying to understand.

                    2. Olly,
                      “I want public education, not this public education system.”

                      Could you clarify?

                  2. PR: “I want public education education to stay strong . . .”

                    By what right do you compel me to pay for someone else’s education?

                    1. You are compelled to pay for someone else’s education when they go to charter schools and with that avenue, you don’t even have a say in how the money is spent or how it operates or what the curriculum is at all.

                      Supporting public education is a benefit to the wider community, since it can help give the community a way to connect across generations and amongst neighbors. It gives communities a sense of reaching for the future, which keeps a community vibrant. A sound educational system attracts families to the community. The vibrancy begets vibrancy. Not every family can afford the luxuries of an outstanding education, so it is good for everyone to pool resources and help make sure people at every state can have access to this opportunity. I am a homeschool parent. Even when I homeschooled all four of my kids, I recognized that not everyone had the means, know-how, or inclination to teach their own kids. I want less privileged kids to have wonderful educational opportunities.

                      And, I want a say-so in this process. My family’s hard-earned money should not get to be used with a wink and a nod that it’s in good hands and will be used judiciously.

                  3. PR: “Supporting public education is a benefit to the wider community . . .”

                    I did not ask you about the (so-called) *benefits* of public education. I asked you a question about *rights* — specifically, the concept of “rights” that you think justifies compelling me to pay for someone else’s education. (You claim to believe in “individual rights.” Yet there is no such justification in that theory of rights.)

                2. My wife has worked at numerous charters in several states, and Prairie is 100% correct. Our public schools are indeed very, very problematic, no question, but charters ain’t the answer, they are thoroughly corrupt.

                  1. James,
                    My argument with PR did not defend charter schools. She asserted that parents do not want school choice. I’m a parent and since I pay taxes to support education, I want a choice to direct my funding to the best education available. This is not that difficult.

                    1. Olly,
                      “I want a choice to direct my funding to the best education available”

                      Your public school district could do with your leadership and your voice. You can help direct and improve the education in your district by communicating with parents, your representatives the School Board members, and the administration. Other parents will help you. You will have more control over how your tax dollars are spent at the public school.

                      Other parents in your area would benefit from your more greatly developed perspective on a good education. Unfortunately, too many people drift through their educational experiences without developing a philosophy of education–including school board members! Too often the community only has a general idea of what constitutes a sound education and why. A vision statement might exist on their webpage, but whether or not that IS their vision is quite another.

                      For instance, why teach grammar? What good is it for? It does far more than teach you parts of speech and how to diagram a sentence–why do that? To learn about structure and organization and classification and logic, albeit indirectly (and directly, too, as logic is crucial for effective communication and argumentation). That trains the brain to think logically–talk about critical thinking skills! You learn how to parse complex sentences–a must if you are going to read some of the Founding documents (I’m thinking of some of the Federalist papers, in particular). You learn how to develop your own complex writing and thinking to improve communication. Why do that? Because we are citizens in a self-governing society–we all need to be effective at communication and argumentation (the building up of arguments and the breaking down of arguments). Both skills are developed when learning how writing works structurally, from each part of speech into the development and communication of large, complex ideas. Ideas are fleshed out over the course of sentences, paragraphs, sections, chapters, and perhaps whole books.

                      What else is education for? Is it to get a job? Is it to have useful skills (what skills in what areas and why)? Is it to find a purpose? How about to find and think about meaning? Is it to help students think hierarchically as well as laterally? It is all of the above and more.

                    2. Your public school district could do with your leadership and your voice. You can help direct and improve the education in your district by communicating with parents, your representatives the School Board members, and the administration. Other parents will help you. You will have more control over how your tax dollars are spent at the public school.

                      Prairie Rose, I sincerely appreciate your sentiments, but they are extremely naïve. Local school boards and school administrators don’t lack opposition from parents. They lack an incentive to listen and implement the changes the parent’s demand. The parent’s have no real leverage. The best and worst school districts all have one thing in common: taxpayers fund them regardless of the metrics. Unions have the leverage in the state legislature, not the taxpayers. And when bond measures are put on the ballot, lawyers craft the language to persuade sympathetic (ignorant) voters to once again increase funding to “improve” the product. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Nothing changes. Infrastructure projects, curriculum, blah, blah, blah give way to improve (wait for it) teacher compensation, retirement plans, etc. Until parents have the leverage to direct their tax dollars to the education they desire for their children, nothing will change.

                    3. Olly,
                      “Local school boards and school administrators don’t lack opposition from parents.”

                      That is not what I see in my part of the country. School board meetings have a smattering of attendance. People complain, but not publically. Yes, there are problems, but elections are coming and people remember the crap getting pulled.

                      People seem to be getting more involved, but it could be better.

                      Parents should not get to be the sole determiners of how other people’s money is spent either. They are not elected representatives.

                    4. That is not what I see in my part of the country. School board meetings have a smattering of attendance. People complain, but not publically. Yes, there are problems, but elections are coming and people remember the crap getting pulled.

                      What does that prove regarding the lack of incentive I mentioned?

                      Parents should not get to be the sole determiners of how other people’s money is spent either. They are not elected representatives.

                      What? You’ve explicitly asserted parents should not have the choice on how to spend their tax dollars regarding education. How does parents having the right to make that choice equal determining how others choose to spend their tax dollars?

                    5. Olly demands he get to spend his tax dollars on private militias.

                      [15] Then the Pharisees going, consulted among themselves how to insnare him in his speech. [16] And they sent to him their disciples with the Herodians, saying: Master, we know that thou art a true speaker and teachest the way of God in truth. Neither carest thou for any man: for thou dost not regard the person of men. [17] Tell us therefore what dost thou think? Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? [18] But Jesus knowing their wickedness, said: Why do you tempt me, ye hypocrites? [19] Show me the coin of the tribute. And they offered him a penny [literally, in Latin, “denarium,” a denarius]. [20] And Jesus saith to them: Whose image and inscription is this? [21] They say to him: Caesar’s. Then he saith to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s. [22] And hearing this, they wondered and, leaving him, went their ways. Matt 22:15–22

                      As long as I retain the free exercise of my rights, I will advocate for public expenditures to be directed toward policies that secure our natural right to life, liberty and property. This means what I’m able to retain privately will be freely directed towards private causes that promote the same principle. Again, this is not that difficult to understand for people that use right reason.

                    6. Olly,
                      PR: “That is not what I see in my part of the country. School board meetings have a smattering of attendance. People complain, but not publically. Yes, there are problems, but elections are coming and people remember the crap getting pulled.”

                      Olly: “What does that prove regarding the lack of incentive I mentioned?”

                      Elections can have consequences. A different school board composition can choose to change their administration to fit the preferences of the electorate. A different school board to choose to not only not raise taxes but they can also choose to decrease the budget (however, that can also have negative consequences, so gotta be careful there not to go overboard).

                      PR: “Parents should not get to be the sole determiners of how other people’s money is spent either. They are not elected representatives.”

                      Olly: “What? You’ve explicitly asserted parents should not have the choice on how to spend their tax dollars regarding education. How does parents having the right to make that choice equal determining how others choose to spend their tax dollars?”

                      That money isn’t ‘theirs’. Taxpayers pay that money to the district. Heck, parents might not even be taxpayers. Why should they get to determine how that money gets spent? Even they don’t get a say-so, really, in how that money gets spent because charter schools are private businesses who get to decide unilaterally how they spend said money. The people who are paying out of their own pockets should get to determine how their money is spent. And, in public districts they are: taxpayers are represented by people they elect–school board members–to wrangle over finances and taxes and budgets (among other things).

                    7. A different school board to choose to not only not raise taxes but they can also choose to decrease the budget…

                      What school boards choose to raise taxes? What school boards choose to decrease their budgets?

                      That money isn’t ‘theirs’.

                      What part of the word public don’t you understand? Taxes are public funds that are expended through budgets, etc. by public servants. Your attitude towards these public officials is that the citizen serves them. Consequently, they have little regard for the very people that empower them. If you followed the money and were objective in your discovery, you’d quickly learn their real power comes from the lobbyists.

                      Heck, parents might not even be taxpayers. Why should they get to determine how that money gets spent?

                      Heck, taxpayers might not even be parents. Why shouldn’t they get to determine how their taxes are spent?

                      The people who are paying out of their own pockets should get to determine how their money is spent.

                      Huh? Do you seriously believe taxes are not coming out of people’s pockets? Money is property. That property is private until it is taken through the means of taxation. People like myself that pay for education outside of public education are paying from what remains in their pocket after taxing them to pay for a service they have determined is not in the best interest of their children.

                    8. Olly,
                      “toward policies that secure our natural right to life, liberty and property.”

                      How would charter schools secure people’s natural right to property when non-parent taxpayers cannot determine how their money (property) is being utilized? How can they determine that there is waste when their is low to no accountability by the public? How can they determine when there is fraud when there is low to no accountability? How can they determine if what is being taught is worthy of their support if that information is proprietary and not required to be made available to the public?

                    9. I’ll repeat: I’m am not advocating for charter schools. I’m advocating for parents to have a choice to not fund an education option they don’t participate in.

                    10. The “right to property” is the thing that billionaires cherish most. It is the cornerstone of the hidden inequality that really matters in America

                      The one that allows them to buy the Democratic party lock stock and barrel and use it as they please

                      But their precious first amendment is the key to the lock in the cornerstone. It protects THEM it does not protect us. They use it for profit and social engineering of public opinion and we are fools to keep on trusting in the paper freedoms of the bill of rights to secure what we can’t keep real, by organized force.

                      They can always manipulate the liberal-democratic system from above. As time goes by their power only grows. This is not a new phenomenon. Since Plato’s time we have understood, the rich will always take over a democratic system and degenerate it into a plutocracy. That takeover seems pretty much complete now

                      Also since Plato’s time, it’s been clear what comes next. Eventually, a rebellion of the people who reconfigure laws to punish and restrict the billionaire-class and its power

                      From now one, don’t worry about “socialism” only worry about who will be its victim. It will be either the billionaires, or it will be us.

                      Every effort and every voice should now denounce the billionaire class. The popular worker’s revolt against the billionaire class that was the psychological impulse of the Trump voters must now become an explicit call to arms against them. Trump was popular because he bucked their agenda. If Trump has gone down as the champion, due to massive voter fraud and mass media and social media complicity, that’s fine. Trump was a lone outlier among billionaires as was Ross Perot before him, a true champion of the American people, who bucked against his class interests. Don’t worry about Trump now, just worry about power and gaining enough of it to take revenge. They are what matters and they must go towards one goal: crushing the billionaire elites of America and punishing them for treason against our nation

                      Today they have already made a trillion more in the stock market while we obsess over electoral minutiae.

                      –Saloth Sar

                    11. The “right to property” is the thing that billionaires cherish most. It is the cornerstone of the hidden inequality that really matters in America

                      Well duh Kurtz! I suspect you’re not advocating for the loss of that right, but instead dealing with the unequal influence that right engenders.

                    12. Olly,
                      You greatly understood me, but it’s my own fault; I was unclear.

                      “What school boards choose to raise taxes? What school boards choose to decrease their budgets?”

                      I wrote “A different school board to … not raise taxes”. And, yes, it happens–sometimes it is even overboard. Mine did.

                      “Taxes are public funds that are expended through budgets, etc. by public servants. Your attitude towards these public officials is that the citizen serves them.”

                      You misunderstood me, but, again, I was unclear. When I wrote that ‘the money isn’t ‘theirs’, I meant that the total amount of money allocated for spending per pupil does not equal the amount (if any) paid in taxes by the parents. It is a tiny fraction–other people in the community–property owners–all pay taxes to the district. It is a pool of money. Parents are a small segment of that total population, and, they were not elected to decide how and where that money should be spent.

                      “If you followed the money and were objective in your discovery, you’d quickly learn their real power comes from the lobbyists.”

                      Small town politics do not look anything like large town politics. I agree with you that lobbyists are a pain in the rear end, especially at the Federal level. At the local level in most of the country (which is mostly filled with small cities and towns) it is the people of these locales interacting with their school boards. Could there be more involvement? Yes, and I see it rising.

                      “Heck, taxpayers might not even be parents. Why shouldn’t they get to determine how their taxes are spent?”

                      Yeah, that’s rather important. And, I’ve said that very thing. Taxpayers can, and do determine how their taxes are spent. There have a couple old fellas who are regulars at the school board meetings; they mostly focus on the money side, though, rather than on the quality of the education. Like these fellows, taxpayers can go to their school board meetings (or watch/participate via Zoom or online). They can call up their school board members. They can read the budget which is public information. They can chat with the superintendent, the curriculum and instruction directors, the principals. They can attend more than the local football game to see what the kids are learning–there is Open House, Science Fairs, Senior Projects, and other events that are often open to the public. Lots has changed since they were in school or their children were in school. My grandparents paid careful attention to the local education, and they were farmers (not retired teachers).

                      “The people who are paying out of their own pockets should get to determine how their money is spent.

                      “Huh? Do you seriously believe taxes are not coming out of people’s pockets? Money is property. That property is private until it is taken through the means of taxation. People like myself that pay for education outside of public education are paying from what remains in their pocket after taxing them to pay for a service they have determined is not in the best interest of their children.”

                      My lack of clarity threw a wrench in the works again. Trying to write something coherent in between teaching my kids or helping them with their seat work did not work out so well. I’ve been writing this response sporadically for over an hour. We’ll see how it goes.

                      Taxes are paid out of people’s pockets. We are in violent agreement. I pay for my kids’ homeschool educational materials and also pay public school taxes. I am fine with this. Those taxes are to support the whole of the public school education for my community’s kids. I’ll have to finish later. The school day is heating up.

                    13. I pay for my kids’ homeschool educational materials and also pay public school taxes. I am fine with this. Those taxes are to support the whole of the public school education for my community’s kids.

                      You obviously have a reason to pay for homeschooling you use and public education you don’t. Perhaps you see that as a duty, perhaps you are being charitable, or something else. That is your choice. Others may have reasons to object to paying for services they don’t use. Perhaps they can’t afford both and want a different school option. You’re fine with the lack of choice, others aren’t. Forcing citizens to pay for products/services they don’t want is ironically a symptom of an education philosophy that has found it’s way into a public policy. .

                      I asked you before, did you support the ACA individual mandate?

                    14. Olly,
                      “You’re fine with the lack of choice”

                      You are putting words in my mouth.

                      I have stated multiple times that I am sympathetic to those in highly dysfunctional locales who feel that the only way to try to get their kids an adequate education is to head to a charter. There is an unaddressed problem with charters–that they are not accountable to the taxpayers whose funds they use. Taxpayers should be represented and have a say in how much and in what way their money is used and to effect change if they note waste or other mismanagement of their money.

                      “Forcing citizens to pay for products/services they don’t want is ironically a symptom of an education philosophy that has found it’s way into a public policy.”

                      This doesn’t really have anything to do with “school choice”.

                      There are things which constitute a ‘public good’ whether or not you use them. They make living in a community nicer. I certainly do not use every street in my area, but it is a good thing that money has been pooled by everyone to care for the roads. Same for parks and the planting of trees along main streets. Your assertion that it is an education philosophy that worked its way into public policy is not quite right. Education philosophy is about how best to get people to gain, retain, and use knowledge. Your concerns seems to be more a part of public policy or discussions of the social fabric–that is, what should fall under the support of the wider community?

                      Education has been deemed a social good because having as many people able to do the 3 Rs and who have the ability to reinforce that learning themselves through access to books strengthens the community. People can improve their lot in life, which makes the community overall healthier and stronger. I have a relative who started out in office work following high school, decided to pick up a computer coding book, learned how to code, and was able to get a higher paying job in coding because of the self-learning. Also, having as many people in a community able to read and write as possible is important because, as citizens in a constitutional republic, we have to communicate with our representatives and form cogent arguments to assert and defend our beliefs as part of that self-governance. Not everyone can afford to (or has the inclination to) privately educate their children.

                      People also need to be able to know what it is they are signing up for when they sign contracts–if they cannot read or comprehend what they are signing, that, too, is detrimental to the individual, and, eventually, the wider community. In Fiddler on the Roof, only one of Jews in Anatemka could read Russian (and I wonder whether some could not even read Hebrew), so they had to rely on the honesty of the sole newsman in town to tell them the news. Well, as we can see all around us, relying solely on other people’s honesty is a non-starter.

                      “I asked you before, did you support the ACA individual mandate?”

                      No. That is a whole ‘nother discussion and it is not really the same as funding education anyway. Having insurance is not really related to most of what ails this country. Insurance is not going to prevent obesity, diabetes, or a whole host of other chronic conditions that plague Americans. Those are most often the result of lifestyle choices.

                    15. You are putting words in my mouth.

                      No, I’m taking your words literally and you’re advocating against parents choosing where their tax dollars are spent. It’s that simple. All your talk about a public good, or the 3 R’s or better community, etc., are secondary to the freedom to choose…period. I see your arguments as nothing more than virtue signaling. Democrats do that all the time when they want to persuade people to support more progressivism and less liberty. That’s why I used the ACA in my question that you deemed irrelevant. It had similar strategies used to sell the public on the merits of the law, but they hid the tax that would use the force of law to remove the right to choose.

                    16. Olly,
                      I do not see ‘freedom to choose’ as superceding all others. Community and the future of a community is also important. E. pluribus unum encompasses the idea of many individuals coming together into community.

                      Education is one of the crucial foundations of a functional constitutional republic.

                    17. I do not see ‘freedom to choose’ as superceding all others.

                      That’s obvious. I’m certain Socialists everywhere appreciate your support.

                    18. Olly,
                      “It had similar strategies used to sell the public on the merits of the law, but they hid the tax that would use the force of law to remove the right to choose.”

                      I disagree. The tax was going to be levied only on those who did not have insurance. Taxes are levied equally and are intended for a particular purpose. That ‘tax’ was more like a fee or a fine, a fine that would force people to purchase something, which is out of bounds. Forcing people to purchase a product is unconstitutional. Education is not a product produced by a private business (unless it’s a charter or private school). Education is public and supports all children’s education. As a citizen in my community, I want all kids to be educated so that they, too, can someday function effectively in our constitutional republic and also not be practically helpless in life because of ignorance and too often coinciding want.

                      “They are your children! They are the children of all who walk the earth unseen! Their names are Ignorance and Want! Beware of them, for upon their brow is written the word “doom”!” Charles Dickens.

                      “Scrooge hung his head to hear his own words quoted by the Spirit, and was overcome with penitence and grief.

                      “Man,” said the Ghost, “if man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. Oh God! to hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust!”” Charles Dickens

                    19. Olly,
                      Why do you see ‘freedom of choice’ as superceding all others? It isn’t the superceding freedom–that is freedom of speech and of the press and of assembly and of religion.

                      “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

                      The governed have decided amongst themselves that the best way to support the future of their constitutional republic is to pool their resources to educate the community’s children. While pooling their resources, they can also keep tabs on how much they are taxed as well as how the money is spent.

                    20. Olly,
                      “Sell your Socialist wants to someone else. I loathe and reject your entire deceptive worldview.”

                      What do you think my worldview is? Advocating for public control of a community’s education is not deceptive, it supports the control of the people in a community–the people who are part of that whole ‘government of the people, by the people, for the people’ thing. The people of any given community have a voice and a means to participate in the governance of and the decision-making within the community. If jerks try to thwart that with deceptive means, it is the jerks who are a problem, not the system. The jerks are breaking the social contract.

                    21. Adam Smith, a classical liberal, wrote: “[The common people] have little time to spare for education…But though the common people cannot, in any civilized society, be so well instructed as people of some rank and fortune, the most essential parts of education, however, to read, write, and account, can be acquired at so early a period of life” (842, The Wealth of Nations)

                      “For a very small expence the public can facilitate, can encourage, and can even impose upon almost the whole body of the people, the necessity of acquiring those most essential parts of education.” (843, The Wealth of Nations)

                      Thomas Jefferson, another classical liberal, wrote: “that those persons, whom nature hath endowed with genius and virtue, should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive, and able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of their fellow citizens, and that they should be called to that charge without regard to wealth, birth or other accidental condition or circumstance; but the indigence of the greater number disabling them from so educating, at their own expence, those of their children whom nature hath fitly formed and disposed to become useful instruments for the public, it is better that such should be sought for and educated at the common expense of all, than that the happiness of all should be confided to the weak or wicked” (84, Thomas Jefferson on Education–“The General Diffusion of Knowledge”).

                      “Every boy so appointed shall be authorised to proceed to the grammar school of his district, there to be educated and boarded during such time as is hereafter limited; and his quota of the expences of the house together with a compensation to the master or usher for his tuition, at the rate of twenty dollars by the year, shall be paid by the Treasurer quarterly on warrant from the Auditors.” (91, Thomas Jefferson on Education–“The General Diffusion of Knowledge”).

                      Sure sounds like the both of them were open to publicly-supported education. Jefferson even wanted it decentralized.

              1. People have the right, duty, and ability to govern themselves.”

                Screw the must believe garbage. They have it whether they believe or not. Then they have to act on it in the affirmative.

                1. Olly,
                  “They have it whether they believe or not. Then they have to act on it in the affirmative.”

                  Same difference.

                  Just like faith without works is dead, beliefs without action could very well be empty, too. You have to live out and embody your beliefs in either an actionable way or in defense of them if they get violated.

                  We DO have inalienable rights and NO ONE is above the law. We are equal!

                  1. We are not “Equal.” this is the primary lie in all of American history. We never were.

                    We were never equal to rich men like Massa Tom Jeff. We are not equal to Jeff Bezos now

                    Amidst the ongoing fraud engineered by Big Tech and Big Media, we are complete idiots if we do not see the danger of the power of the billionaire class and take explicit aim against them in our political and social planning. They are the enemy and they grow ever stronger. It will be them or us in the end.

                    1. Anon/(Kurtz?),
                      I absolutely disagree with you. We are Equal. It is not a lie. I am every bit as equal as Thomas Jefferson and Jeff Bezos. Equality between mankind is clearly laid out in the Torah and the Bible and reverberates through the Bill of Rights. That equality is seen in Leviticus and Matthew with the idea that we are to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” That equality is seen in the idea that the first people were created in God’s image and held within them His infinite worth, and, from them all other people were made. God didn’t start out creating this tribe or that tribe; He simply made people and they stemmed from the same two people, not some from a king and others from the dirt or something. Everyone had a common origin. That equality is seen in how one man’s eye was not worth more or less than another man’s eye. In the Bill of Rights, everyone has the same rights and no one is allowed to overrun the rights of their fellow man. Even the structure of the Constitution seeks to balance the powers such that no single entity or person is more powerful than any others. Some pigs are not more equal than others.

                      https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/answering-atheists/eye-for-an-eye-one-of-the-greatest-ideas-in-history.html

                      “Amidst the ongoing fraud engineered by Big Tech and Big Media, we are complete idiots if we do not see the danger of the power of the billionaire class”

                      Don’t forget Big Pharma and Big Business and perhaps even Big Government. This is a completely different point, albeit somewhat related. They are acting as though they are ‘more equal than others’. People are angry because they believe that that is wrong. The people in these “Big” entities are acting like a clique and are working the system in a self-serving manner (or some-other-serving manner or both…not entirely sure of the narrative).

                      “and take explicit aim against them in our political and social planning.”

                      That sounds like the desire for someone’s control. That ‘our’ sounds too much like the royal ‘we’. That’s no good either.

                      Using the structures in place, eliminating laws that make some pigs more equal than others or that violated the Bill of Rights would be a start. Reinstating laws that kept intelligence behemoths separated would be another.

                    2. We are Equal.

                      Yes, we are created with equal rights. Because of human nature, we are not equal in the security of those rights.

          2. PR: “’School choice is what the people want.’” (quoting Olly)

            “It is NOT.” (PR)

            PR, you’re not even close.

            Recent polls show about 70% of Americans (across party lines and ethnicities) support school choice.

            “The survey of 1,200 likely November 2020 voters showed that 67% of voters support school choice . . .” (Note that this particular poll is from “Beck Research, a *Democratic* polling firm.”) (Other recent polls show that support in the high 70’s, across all groups.)

            https://www.federationforchildren.org/national-school-choice-poll-shows-67-of-voters-support-school-choice-2019/

            1. If that means charters, especially cyber charters, I guess they don’t give one hoot how their tax dollars are spent. They aren’t thinking about the implications at all. They’d better not bellyache about being taxed enough already or about corporations controlling too much of our government.

              In any case, it might also be a case of lies, dambed lies, and statistics.

              1. If that means charters, especially cyber charters, I guess they don’t give one hoot how their tax dollars are spent. They aren’t thinking about the implications at all.

                Prairie Rose,
                You don’t realize that your entire argument fails not because of the choice people are making, it fails because you oppose the right to choose. Whether it’s public schools, charter schools or private schools, forcing parents to fund a system they don’t want to purchase is an abuse of power. Did you support the individual mandate regarding the Affordable Care Act? It’s the same principle.

                1. Olly,
                  “forcing parents to fund a system they don’t want to purchase is an abuse of power.”

                  That is bizarre. It’s their own system. It is public. They don’t want their own system that they control with their tax dollars and who they decide to elect to represent them. Abuse of power? They are the power, for heaven’s sake!

                  1. That is bizarre. It is their own system. It is public. They don’t want their own system that they control with their tax dollars and who they decide to elect to represent them. Abuse of power? They are the power, for heaven’s sake!

                    Bizarre? I believe you and I are living in two different realities. Yours is the Blue Pill and mine is the Red Pill.

                    1. Olly,
                      It sounds like you live in CA, so your reality probably does look quite different. NY and CA look very different than flyover country.

                    2. Olly,
                      “Geography won’t do a thing for the reality you believe you’re seeing. ”

                      Geography, no. Composition of the people there, yes.

                      I see reality pretty well. I think I’ll trust my instincts on this one. The small town local governance in my area is controlled by the people. Could more people be paying attention and participating? Definitely. Are there some problems? Sure. But that’s just because people are fallen and fallible. Most people around here are not corrupt. There is a high degree of church attendance and earnestness for those faiths. Most people want to work together. Most people around here have known each other’s families for generations. Does that have its own problems? Yeah, but there are benefits, too. Trust builds up as you know people and their families.

                    3. But that’s just because people are fallen and fallible.

                      That includes you and I. Which means that our instincts need to be checked by something outside of ourselves. You describe a community that is in many ways what I lived in growing up. But whether it’s small town middle America, or a coastal megalopolis, the check that I’m talking about involve infringement of our fundamental natural rights. The natural right to your property is one. The freedom to choose what you do with your property, the freedom to choose your child’s education options, is not something I’m willing to cede to pressure from anyone. And if I lived in a community that believed their will is more important than my natural rights, then I would either stay and fight, or move to a community that respected them.

                    4. Olly,
                      “Which means that our instincts need to be checked by something outside of ourselves.”

                      Our instincts get checked by our conscience or our faith. Our instincts also get checked by the people around us who tell us when we are being foolish, cruel, or irrational. Our instincts get checked when we argue something and run up against a better counter-argument. Our instincts get checked by adherence to the law (and if we won’t adhere ourselves, by arrest and prosecution). The instincts of elected officials get checked, too, by the communications of their constituents and by voting. Our instincts get checked when we are held accountable in some way.

                      “the freedom to choose your child’s education options, is not something I’m willing to cede to pressure from anyone. And if I lived in a community that believed their will is more important than my natural rights, then I would either stay and fight, or move to a community that respected them.”

                      We do have freedom to choose our children’t educational options (e.g., you and I both homeschool). What I have consistently argued is that there are problems with charter schools and how they are funded. I do NOT want charters to be the only option–that is corporatist control. I’d rather hash it out in an arena that I might be able to modify–the public square (even as a homeschool parent, I am doing this–I have a school board meeting to attend this week). Having to interact in a community, aiming for the best education for the community’s children helps the community be better overall since as people work together in one way, they aim to work together in others.

                      “I would either stay and fight, or move to a community that respected them.”

                      Which is what we have been doing since man lived in tribes. Thankfully, we have developed better ways to resolve conflicts. The layers include discussion and debate at school boards and city councils (for example), as well as through petitions and voting. Sometimes it gets uglier with investigations and prosecutions. Better to keep problems small and in check through rigorous attention and debate before they get unmanageable. I rather like the Spartan response to the great Persian Empire when it noted that its arrows would block out the sun: “I guess we will fight in the shade.”

                    5. Save your monotonous screeds for someone else. Your arguments will always fail if you advocate for infringing the right for parents to have school options they want…good or bad, you’re not their momma. This includes them choosing to use their school tax dollars for the school of their choice.

                    6. Olly,
                      “Your arguments will always fail if you advocate for infringing the right for parents to have school options they want…good or bad, you’re not their momma. This includes them choosing to use their school tax dollars for the school of their choice.”

                      It isn’t parents’ money. It is the taxpayers’ money! I have been arguing quite consistently against charter schools getting carte blanche use of taxpayer money.

                      I said: “I do NOT want charters to be the only option–that is corporatist control.” And that seems to be the direction charter school advocates are headed. Charter schools are private businesses are not really answerable to anyone–especially taxpayers. That is not okay. That is taxation without representation!

                    7. You don’t want? Your wants don’t get to infringe my wants. There are two issues here and you cannot see how you are acting the tyrant to get what you want. Bad charter schools, bad public schools, bad private schools and bad homeschools exist. No public funds should be used to support any of them. That’s one issue. Forcing taxpayers to fund anything they don’t want to is legal plunder. Read Bastiat’s The Law and then we can continue this discussion.

                    8. Here’s some of Bastiat:

                      The Law and Education
                      You say: “There are persons who lack education,” and you turn to the law. But the law is not, in itself, a torch of learning which shines its light abroad. The law extends over a society where some persons have knowledge and others do not; where some citizens need to learn, and others can teach. In this matter of education, the law has only two alternatives: It can permit this transaction of teaching-and-learning to operate freely and without the use of force, or it can force human wills in this matter by taking from some of them enough to pay the teachers who are appointed by government to instruct others, without charge. But in this second case, the law commits legal plunder by violating liberty and property.

                      http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

                    9. “Adam Smith, a classical liberal, wrote: “[The common people] have little time to spare for education…But though the common people cannot, in any civilized society, be so well instructed as people of some rank and fortune, the most essential parts of education, however, to read, write, and account, can be acquired at so early a period of life” (842, The Wealth of Nations)

                      “For a very small expence the public can facilitate, can encourage, and can even impose upon almost the whole body of the people, the necessity of acquiring those most essential parts of education.” (843, The Wealth of Nations)

                      Thomas Jefferson, another classical liberal, wrote: “that those persons, whom nature hath endowed with genius and virtue, should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive, and able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of their fellow citizens, and that they should be called to that charge without regard to wealth, birth or other accidental condition or circumstance; but the indigence of the greater number disabling them from so educating, at their own expence, those of their children whom nature hath fitly formed and disposed to become useful instruments for the public, it is better that such should be sought for and educated at the common expense of all, than that the happiness of all should be confided to the weak or wicked” (84, Thomas Jefferson on Education–“The General Diffusion of Knowledge”).

                      “Every boy so appointed shall be authorised to proceed to the grammar school of his district, there to be educated and boarded during such time as is hereafter limited; and his quota of the expences of the house together with a compensation to the master or usher for his tuition, at the rate of twenty dollars by the year, shall be paid by the Treasurer quarterly on warrant from the Auditors.” (91, Thomas Jefferson on Education–“The General Diffusion of Knowledge”).

                      Sure sounds like the both of them were open to publicly-supported education. Jefferson even wanted it decentralized.

                    10. Context matters, right? In the 18th century, having a system of educating the masses was still a fairly new concept. It was rightly deemed a public good. The Northwest Ordinance stated the following:
                      Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

                      The 19th century brought 100 years of context with political philosophers reflecting on the various methods governments have used the law. Keep in mind that nothing that government does shall infringe our natural rights. Bastiat had this in mind when he wrote The Law in 1850. He said:
                      The Socialists Reject Free Choice
                      Please understand that I do not dispute their right to invent social combinations, to advertise them, to advocate them, and to try them upon themselves, at their own expense and risk. But I do dispute their right to impose these plans upon us by law — by force — and to compel us to pay for them with our taxes.

                      I do not insist that the supporters of these various social schools of thought — the Proudhonists, the Cabetists, the Fourierists, the Universitarists, and the Protectionists — renounce their various ideas. I insist only that they renounce this one idea that they have in common: They need only to give up the idea of forcing us to acquiesce to their groups and series, their socialized projects, their free-credit banks, their Graeco-Roman concept of morality, and their commercial regulations. I ask only that we be permitted to decide upon these plans for ourselves; that we not be forced to accept them, directly or indirectly, if we find them to be contrary to our best interests or repugnant to our consciences.

                      But these organizers desire access to the tax funds and to the power of the law in order to carry out their plans. In addition to being oppressive and unjust, this desire also implies the fatal supposition that the organizer is infallible and mankind is incompetent. But, again, if persons are incompetent to judge for themselves, then why all this talk about universal suffrage?

                    11. Olly,
                      I will try to continue the discussion over the weekend; however, my schedule is especially busy right now. I feel busier now than I did before coronavirus! I’m heading to bed “early”.

      2. …by ‘likes of you’ we mean your leftist Marxist San Fran politics ain’t gonna fly in America today. And ‘we are coming for you’…..in 2022 and 2024. Hang on for a wild ride, Mamala.

      3. REGARDING ABOVE:

        Here our troll reveals that he ‘is’ the racist creep we always suspected. That’s often the case with nerdy losers.

        1. I am here expressing my frustration because, as Richard Gere put it: “I got nowhere else to go.” So I vent here. Thank you Mr. Turley for this wide open free speech space. God bless America. God bless Professor Turley.

      4. Regarding Above:

        Here our regular troll reveals what we always suspected: ‘He’s a creepy racist’. But that’s not unusual for nerdy losers.

              1. Oh wait, Joe Biden didn’t ever leave his basement to campaign or have to answer hard questions, and the election is still being contested….but now he’s…..the next president of the united states? I’m so confused.

    1. As one who has admired Turley, it saddens me to bear witness to his silence in the face of Barr’s enabling of Trumpism which in the fullness of time will be regarded not unlike McCarthyism as one of the darkest chapters in American politics. Those who were complicit in Trumpism will be held accountable, and there will be a moral reckoning.

      1. Buckle up buttercup. President Trump and his AG have 2 months remaining and there is an avalanche of evidence poised for release. 😁

      2. Those who were complicit in Trumpism will be held accountable, and there will be a moral reckoning.
        ******************
        Bring it on Jeffy but I’d suggest you bring your friends. Mine will be there. Oh, and we suspect you and yours are candyarses who talk when action is called for. But either way is okay.

  8. Just in case I’m no longer banned, figured I’d drop by to say what a relief it is to know that Trump will be gone in January.

      1. It will be interesting to see how long Turley will remain a Fox legal analyst. He will be placed in the uncomfortable position of having to give credence to frivolous Trump lawsuits. You will notice that he does not explicitly endorse Trump’s allegations; rather, he simply argues that they ought not to be dismissed out of hand. He serves to give some cover to Fox News as the network tries to placate its viewers. Even during his Impeachment testimony, he never argued that Trump’s conduct was not impeachable; rather, he claimed that the impeachment process was rushed and that there was insufficient evidence to present the case to the Senate. Very crafty to agree in principle with Democrats while at the same time agreeing with Republicans that the proceedings were flawed. And yet, I have never heard him spell out in specific detail what was not sufficient with the evidence at hand! He simply claimed that there was not enough on account of speedy nature of the proceedings.

      1. How unsurprising that you proclaim you know better than I do what I’m relieved about, Mespo.

        I’m relieved that Trump will no longer be President as of January 20. I just hope that he doesn’t do too much more harm before then.

        I hope that Biden appoints a good AG and then stays out of the decisions about whether to pursue Trump for his crimes. Either way, I expect NY to pursue Trump’s likely tax fraud, and hopefully we’ll finally see what happens with the two defamation suits related to claims about Trump and sexual harassment and rape.

  9. Looking forward to becoming a full-fledged member of the Biden resistance. Berets all around. Viva! Ought to be fun calling old doddering Biden a fool and buffoon. Maybe he can also be the “gray man bad.” Oh and let the investigations begin into Hunter and Jill and his brood of baddies. Can’t wait to call him every profane word and make fun of every gaff. Yeah the decline is here and a senile fool is leading it with his ho in tow. That assumes of course he gets away with the election scam where he doesn’t campaign and still wins in “liberal” Georgia. Let the farce begin. Maybe we’ll make it out alive. Given Joe’s age and health, he won’t see the chickens come home but they always do. Oh and let’s all sign up for Trump’s news channel. Be of good cheer, the pratfalls are just beginning. And the great irony is the misery will be visited primarily on the dopes who voted Biden into office. No stupid deed goes unpunished.

    1. Mespo, Trump can look forward to court dates in the Southern District of New York. There’s a little matter concerning taxes that should occupy the opening days of Trump’s post-presidency.

        1. I agree with you about Biden. But I disagree about them going after Trump. They will seek retaliation to teach a threatening lesson: your kind must be destroyed and never rise to power again. They are making lists and taking names as AOC tweeted. They will go after Trump, his family, his children, his admin officials, Trump supporters, etc etc. They are seeking revenge, retaliation and they will be ruthless as they attempt to thwart the coming Republican Red Wave in 2022 that will likely flip the House. Make no mistake, they are coming for Trump, and then some.

  10. TRUMP’S CHIEF OF STAFF TESTS POSITIVE

    Mark Meadows, the chief of staff to President Trump, has tested positive for the coronavirus. He is the latest person in the president’s inner circle to catch the virus, which is surging across the country.

    Meadows was last seen by reporters on election night, when Trump gave a defiant speech to supporters packed into the East Room of the White House. Meadows walked into the room ahead of Trump’s adult children just ahead of his remarks.

    Bloomberg News was first to report the development late Friday evening. A senior official who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss Meadows’ health information publicly confirmed the news to NPR. A spokesman for the White House declined comment.

    Edited from: “White House Chief Of Staff, Mark Meadows, Tests Positive For Coronavirus”

    Today’s NPR

  11. Fox News Closely Coordinated With White House Amid Vote Count

    But Network Has To Look Forward

    On Tuesday night, Fox News became the first major news outlet to declare that Biden would win Arizona. An angry Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law, dialed Murdoch to demand he reverse the network’s call. Pro-Trump supporters in Maricopa County, Ariz. — some of them armed — led chants of “Fox sucks.” And for days, the network’s top opinion hosts gave ballast to the president’s unfounded and corrosive claims of voter fraud by Democrats, seeking to discredit the entire electoral process.
    Fox News’ journalists, by and large, have attempted to navigate a gentle landing for their audiences so that they recognize Trump has lost the election. But the network’s stars have larded their shows with Trump advocates. All this week, they’ve made baseless but incendiary accusations to ensure that viewers never accept Biden as legitimate.

    Murdoch threw his weight and his media outlets behind the president early on, although his Wall Street Journal’s news pages have also offered muscular investigative reporting on Trump. That alliance has served Murdoch well, giving him full and frequent access to Trump as well as a presidential seal of approval on his sale of entertainment properties to Disney despite antitrust concerns.

    Donald Trump considers many Fox News figures among his closest advisers. These include Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, Jeanine Pirro and others. He has drawn from the ranks of Fox contributors to fill senior White House appointments and even considered stars for Cabinet positions. And they, in turn, have been ferocious in relaying the president’s baseless claims, winning his frequent appearances on their programs and stratospheric ratings in response.

    Earlier this year, Fox News stars helped whip up protests in opposition to shutdowns related to COVID-19 and orders to wear masks. Fox News stars stoked potential scandals involving Biden’s son Hunter based on unauthenticated reports from Murdoch’s New York Post — material Fox’s own reporters largely could not validate.
    As one small sign of the ways in which Fox and Trump Republicans can orchestrate programming, on Friday evening, NPR reviewed an internal GOP memo sent to top party officials to prepare Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel for her appearance on Hannity’s show that night. It set out in great specificity the intended flow of the show’s lengthy opening segment — including its guests, articles and subjects — and the primary points Hannity would make. The two jointly focused on stoking suspicions of voter fraud. (The RNC confirmed the memo’s authenticity but declined to comment on the collaboration.)

    After Fox’s election project decision desk called Arizona for Biden late Tuesday night local time, the Trump campaign put out a statement trashing its head, Arnon Mishkin, who later appeared on-air to acknowledge he had done work for Democrats in the past. One Republican senator, Kevin Cramer of North Dakota, accused Fox of a cover-up in a radio interview and called on the network to fire Mishkin. “Fox News owes the American people an apology,” he said.

    The network stood by its decision desk.

    But others say the Murdochs need to do more to help viewers accept the verdict of the American public. CNN anchor Jake Tapper said on-air, “The Murdochs and the people at Fox have an obligation to put their country above their profits.” Murdoch’s liberal daughter-in-law Kathryn Murdoch tweeted that she agreed. She is married to Murdoch’s younger son, James, who is no longer a top executive within the family media empire, though he retains a major stake.

    Edited from: “With Trump’s Loss, Murdoch’s Fox News Faces Wrath And Tough Choices”

    Today’s NPR
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    KEY PASSAGE: “On Tuesday night, Fox News became the first major news outlet to declare that Biden would win Arizona. An angry Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law, dialed Murdoch to demand he reverse the network’s call”.

    It’s been widely reported that Trump flew into a rage when Fox reported that Arizona was going for Biden. Apparently even Trump could sense this was very bad omen. Still it’s shocking to think Jarrod Kushner was actually bold enough to telephone Rupert Murdoch with Trump’s complaint. Nevertheless this revelation confirms the tight relationship we always knew existed between Trump’s White House and Fox News.

  12. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the Associated Press has declared Joe Biden the 46th President of the United States.

    1. Last I looked the propaganda machines didn’t get to make that sort of announcements especially they have had to say “I sowwy” for f’n it up so much with made up stories.

  13. The soul of the country has spoken.

    By a slim “slam” majority.

    Now slim will block for Trump, and slam will dunk for Biden.

    Turley knows both sides have their roles to play, the work of the Supreme Court must continue, and there’s an important ACA hearing coming up on the 10th of November.

    Fed Chairman Powell says “full economic recovery depends on managing COVID-19.”

    Pandemic dashboard contemplation:

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/individual-states

    For the wellbeing of the country, Trump should promptly congratulate Biden on his provisional victory, thank his base, quietly let his campaign lawyers press on with their fight, and promise to continue the nation’s business. Then he should address the latest Covid surge; any changes or updates in the federal response; and the WH plan to facilitate Relief.

    Trump has instead issued a statement that invites ironic comparison with his 9 November 2016 victory speech:

    https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-elections-c809d17b5cd34048e1a5e9bbb4b73cb7

    “The simple fact is this election is far from over. Joe Biden has not been certified as the winner of any states, let alone any of the highly contested states headed for mandatory recounts, or states where our campaign has valid and legitimate legal challenges that could determine the ultimate victor. In Pennsylvania, for example, our legal observers were not permitted meaningful access to watch the counting process. Legal votes decide who is president, not the news media.”

    1. Trump’s response it totally unsurprising. He’s unfit. He’s not going to be able to address the latest Covid surge or present a WH plan to facilitate relief.

      1. A Tale of Two Task Forces?

        “Scoop: Biden to announce COVID-19 task force Monday”:

        https://www.axios.com/biden-to-announce-covid-19-task-force-monday-23b353bd-863b-4e0f-bb64-c6da4a5758b2.html

        “Dr. Deborah Birx’s stern warning is a wakeup call”:

        https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/03/opinions/deborah-birx-covid-warning-to-america-filipovic/index.html

        Birx is on the ball. Trump must be thinking about what to do with her nemesis, Scott Atlas.

        133,000 new daily cases is a lot of cases. Maybe we have grown immune to the numbers. Maybe this is the beginning of the worst phase of the pandemic yet, and we need to think about another national lockdown to prevent a third wave from becoming a tsunami. Thanksgiving could be the biggest interstate super-spreader event yet. Is that panic talking, or prudence, Task Forces 1 and 2?

      2. Really after todays revelation by JustFacts,com the stupid party may be inicapable of refreezing the snow melt You lose again.

    2. Sure because after Trump got elected by a landslide in 2016 Democrats congratulated him and spent the next four years working together with Republicans for the good of the country. Not. The voter fraud isn’t just a personal attack on Trump, if it is an attack on Trump at all. It is an attack on Americans who went and stood in line and voted in good faith in the belief that their vote counted. If Trump, on behalf of the American people, were to just blindly accept this colossal case of fraud, it would be a betrayal, not just of those who voted for him, but of every American, even those who despise him. Further, Trump isn’t the only name on the ballot. As we’ve already seen in Antrim County, one GOP candidate was told he lost by 100 votes only to learn he had really won by 1200. This isn’t some banana republic. We set an example to the world and if the example we set is that corruption and fraud are not only accepted but celebrated, where will it end? The results are close enough in the swing states that recounts would be warranted even in the absence of the shadow of fraud. But in the current situation, the “best thing for the country” is open to debate. For you, it’s a rubber stamping of your candidate. For me, it’s knowing the truth. It may very well be that even after the truth is exposed — and it promises to be an ugly one – Biden will still be confirmed by Congress and inaugurated. The conservative majority in the Supreme Court tends to rule according to Constitution and conscience rather than party line as your side increasingly does and if the electors cast their votes for Biden and Congress confirms it, then that’s that. We will accept it and move on. But there are some steps to go through between then and now. People who have spent the past four years tearing the country apart in increasingly desperate attempts to “get Trump” are not in any kind of position to take the moral highground now.

      1. Trump wasn’t elected in a landslide in 2016. Why do you say he was?

        If you have evidence of fraud, turn it in to the authorities. If you don’t have evidence, then why imagine it?

        1. Got any facts today? No? Just a skull crunching slap in fhe non human face by Justfacts.com . Bwa ha hahahahaha

        2. Since you are the very last one to be talking about having no evidence is this your idea of deflecting from your stupid previous comments? How many pieces of PCRap have you written so far and NEVER come up with source or fact? Answer. ALL of them were PCRap. We are IN FACT waiting on the results of the final vote counts not just the states in question but the new charges by Just Facts and their investigation that the illegal invalidi votes did push Biden over the top. Just think about it. Even if he does get inaugurated doesn’t mean those who did commit criminal acts can’t be prosecuted. Think about it. Biden gets in office but his party goes to jail.

Leave a Reply