Just before I was interviewed today on Fox about ongoing challenges to shutdown orders, Admiral Brett Giroir was interviewed and gave what must have been welcomed views on the science behind pandemic orders. A hearing is scheduled tomorrow in one of the challenges by businesses in California to the lockdown ordered by Governor Gavin Newsom. Giroir however stated that there was no evidence or science supporting the type of categorical lockdown in states like California, particularly bans on outdoor dining. The statement presents a potential conflict with Dr. Anthony Fauci. It certainly contradicts the common narrative in the media and the recent election. Giroir is a widely respected public health expert who has reenforced a calm and science-based approach to the White House Coronavirus Task Force.
As I discussed, courts have been applying greater scrutiny to these pandemic orders. The initial deference afforded to pandemic order tends to wane with time. The first such shift came predictably with challenges based on the contravention of constitutional rights, particularly the free exercise of religion under the First Amendment. Such challenges have the advantage of the higher standard of strict scrutiny.
Now, however, there are renewed challenges for businesses under the lower standard of the rational basis test. This is due to the contradiction of some orders with known science or data on transmission rates and sources. For example, through the election, Democrats suggested that President Donald Trump was effectively trying to kill children by pushing to reopen schools, including Washington Post columnist Jennifer Rubin. Rubin has previously shown a disregard of the factual foundation for her allegations. Yet, Democrats have maintained until recently that schools must be closed due to the high risk of transmission despite growing scientific evidence to the contrary. Ads running before the election cited Dr. Fauci in saying that opening schools was putting the lives of children at risk for political reasons:
Recently, Mayor diBlasio reversed his order to close New York schools after criticism over the lack of scientific support for the policy. Indeed, it contradicts the long-standing findings of health organizations that young children show an exceptionally low risk for contracting or passing Covid-19. There are also studies showing the high cost of lockdown from massive economic losses to spikes in suicide to increasing medical (non-Covid-19) emergencies.
Thankfully, courts tend to be more attentive to the factual foundation of their own conclusions. At most, they will find a mixed scientific record supporting the categorical bans.
Notably, Dr. Anthony Fauci, said publicly that he supported the new lockdowns in California. However, Giroir referenced Fauci and the other Task Force members in saying that they have not seen “any data that says you need to shutdown outdoor dining or outdoor bars.” He said that the science does not support such categorical lockdowns, explaining
“We do, in a surge place, need to limit indoor dining, indoor bars, but you don’t have to close schools, you don’t have to close universities, you don’t have to close your major industries . . . The science does not support limiting indoor dining and bars…It’s time to nuance. This is not March or April. This is December. We know what the science says, we know there are countermeasures that are effective…
…Whatever the expression is, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I think we could be causing a lot more harm by overly restrictive recommendations that are not supported by the science,” he said. “What I am saying is the evidence clearly does not support limitations on things like outdoor dining particularly that are spaced, outdoor bars — the evidence just isn’t there. . . Shutting down completely, particularly if you don’t have evidence, can be counterproductive.”
That is likely to be featured prominently in these increasing challenges to blanket shutdown orders. State and local officials will still be afforded deference but the science on some of these limitations can now be challenged. The best bet for governors is still the rational basis test which ordinarily presents an easy standard to satisfy. However, the call “follow the science” may not be a clearly supportive in some of these cases. There now appears to be significant science-based arguments that can be raised in opposing to sweeping lockdowns. If a court is presented with science on both sides, the advantage still rests with the states and their pandemic orders. They will have to offer a rational basis for why such lockdowns are needed. That might include reducing the travel of parents with their children to schools and the need for significant numbers of adults to support school operations, including obviously the teachers. In such a balancing, statements by experts like Admiral Giroir will likely to be raised and considered by courts.
Seems to me our judicial system is too massive and slow to be agile enough and flexible enough to handle an enormous legal challenge like the one facing our nation right now. There are so many technicalities we can’t get a clear overall picture of the most important considerations. Why can’t Trump present his complaints before the S.C. in a concise but thorough and comprehensive case to get at least a preliminary injunction?
Trump has no legal case, and he can’t present it to the Supreme Court because they’re not going to grant cert to someone who has no legal case.
I’d like you to review this comment tomorrow morning, Wed… I believe the PA spanking will show Trump has plenty of standing.
Trump is not even a litigant on that case, jackass.
SCOTUS rejected the case.
Jon, why can’t Trump demand discovery? How is he supposed to provide all the evidence he wants to use if he’s blocked from doing so before his case can be heard?
Do you want everyone to be able to just demand discovery?
Can the woman who accused Trump of rape just demand that he provide a DNA sample?
Can New York just demand that Trump provide his tax returns?
I believe the normal process is to provide the proof you have to the court, which will approve discovery. Affidavits are proof. The problem is the state courts don’t want anything to do with it, and many of the judges are acting based on politics. The entire process is too slow.
Affidavits are only evidence that someone has claimed something. Many of the affidavits contain nothing more than hearsay.
https://www.fltimes.com/news/nation/pennsylvania-judge-backs-trump-claim-in-case-over-mail-voting/article_207ea6a0-fd81-5f96-ada2-10e9d42a1b83.html
THE BIGGEST UNREPORTED STORY
PA JUDGE AGREES WITH TRUMP
McCullough, a Republican, said the GOP was likely to succeed in establishing that the procedure by which Pennsylvania’s GOP-controlled legislature instituted new mail-in voting methods as part of the 2019 Act 77 violated the state’s constitution. The judge didn’t say whether she thinks that means that any votes cast by mail-in ballot must be disqualified
The Republicans “appear to have established a likelihood to succeed on the merits because Petitioners have asserted the Constitution does not provide a mechanism for the legislature to allow for expansion of absentee voting without a constitutional amendment,” McCullough said in a written opinion issued late Friday.
That’s an old article. The PA Supreme Court already ruled agains Kelly.
And… SCOTUS will slap PA silly today or tomorrow, most likely today. You know Alito required filings from both parties in this case, right? And you know PA Supreme Court used a “latches” ruling determinant that doesn’t apply, right, without allowing any factual submissions, which is also a procedural error… right? So SCOTUS will fix that.
I guess you missed the part where SCOTUS is looking at the case. Details… that’s why Mr Turley and others are the lawyers, and you and I are not.
Question – why do you think Alito issued a SECOND order to PA to separate the ballots received after 5 PM Nov 3? Which was not followed, BTW. Because Alito already knew it was likely that could be something the court would address. Which they are.
BTW, Alito originally req’d the filings by 5 PM 12/9. He moved it up to 8 AM 12/8 (now). Why? Maybe you should go to Redstate.com and read what “Shipwreckedcrew” has written. He’s got 20+ yrs experience as a US Attorney and illuminates what’s actual and likely, not what’s popular. Redstate is a conservative site and, despite that, a couple of times he’s written against a Trump legal strategy in a way that pissed everyone off. But he was right. His take on this is SCOTUS is very likely to strip PA’s electors from the state, and maybe tie it to other states in question that violated the Constitution by courts changing voting law interpretations instead of the legislature. And PA’s Act 77 changes their Constitution, which very clearly requires a statewide vote of approval.
PA’s actions were not legal, and it flipped the vote to Biden. It will not stand as counted.
Yes, I know Alito required filings from both parties in the question of an injunction. The word is “laches,” not “latches,” and no, that’s not a procedural error.
You’re pretty arrogant, and I think you’re just another incarnation of Allan, who regularly displays his Dunning Kruger beliefs.
The SC is not going to overrule the Pennsylvania SC on a question of PA law. If the SC doesn’t issue an injunction by tonight — and they won’t — then the safe harbor date will have passed. As for Shipwreckedcrew, I prefer to read commentary from lawyers with expertise.
SCOTUS rejected the case this afternoon. You and “Shipwreckedcrew” guessed wrong.
How many people in the u.s. died this far this year from tobacco smoking?
Name one presidential candidate who promoted the outlawing of tobacco.
And give up all that tax revenue?
Not to mention revenue from the farms. Those things are the only reasons pot ever comes up in government conversations, too. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were cross-pollination with the pharmaceutical industry, either. This situation is all an extension of that, as is the weaponization if the virus.
There are reports that Judge Sullivan is proceeding with the Flynn case despite a DOJ motion to dismiss and despite a presidential pardon.
Apparently nobody in the court of appeals or the supreme court gives a crap about this. They all have a share.
Is this even sane?
Is it “sane?”
Sure.
In a DemoCommie world.
Apparently Young treats rumor as fact.
You’ll now declare that the rumor you repeated was wrong, correct?
“We’re like the modern-day DeNiro and Pacino,” NY Gov Cuomo jokes to Dr. Anthony Fauci.
‘Two of the most incompetent egomaniacs in US history.’ @catturd
The Art of the Deal:
“WASHINGTON — Before Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine was proved highly successful in clinical trials last month, the company offered the Trump administration the chance to lock in supplies beyond the 100 million doses the pharmaceutical maker agreed to sell the government as part of a $1.95 billion deal over the summer.
But the administration, according to people familiar with the talks, never made the deal, a choice that now raises questions about whether the United States allowed other countries to take its place in line.
While two vaccines, including Pfizer’s, have proved to be highly effective against Covid-19, and a third also appears at least moderately effective, supplies are shaping up to be scarce in the coming months as infections, hospitalizations and deaths surge to new highs. And while Pfizer is now negotiating with the administration to provide more of its vaccine, people familiar with the talks say the company cannot guarantee that it will be able to deliver more than the initial 100 million doses — enough to inoculate 50 million people since its vaccine requires two shots — before perhaps next June.
After it signed its federal contract in late July, Pfizer went on to seal deals with other governments, including the European Union, which last month finalized an agreement to acquire 200 million doses from Pfizer and its German partner, BioNTech. On Tuesday, Britain will begin inoculating its population with the vaccine.
President Trump has hailed the development of the vaccine as a victory for his administration, even though Pfizer, unlike the developer of the other most promising vaccine, Moderna, took no upfront money from the government’s Operation Warp Speed development program.
On Tuesday, Mr. Trump is holding a White House event to promote the program’s role and plans to issue an executive order that applies his “America First” philosophy to the pandemic by proclaiming that other nations will not get the U.S. supplies of its vaccine until Americans have been inoculated……”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/us/politics/trump-pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Pfizer and Moderna both passed on an invite to the WH to celebrate “operation Warp Speed”.
The NYT is Fake News “Deluxe.” Trump’s “Operation Warp Speed” was another Trump victory of his scores of victories. That Pfizer and Moderna don’t want to give Trump credit and acknowledge his critical role in making the successful vaccines possible was ALREADY a given, which explains why the companies deliberately waited until AFTER the election to announce their great results. They didn’t and don’t want to help Trump. They are, after all, BIG PHARMA, and are dedicated to FLEECING the American public dry of funds, while Trump has the EXACT OPPOSITE agenda. But here’s the REAL news, not that you care. (Anybody who relies on the NYT’s presstitutes for information, doesn’t care about the truth.) https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/operation-warp-speed-trump-pfizer-moderna-vaccine-1.5806820
OK JFeldman, here’s the story from AP. I aim to please.
“WASHINGTON (AP) — The Trump administration opted last summer not to lock in a chance to buy millions of additional doses of one of the leading coronavirus vaccine contenders, a decision that could delay the delivery of a second batch of doses until manufacturer Pfizer fulfills other international contracts.
The revelation, confirmed Monday by people familiar with the matter, came a day before President Donald Trump aimed to take credit for the speedy development of forthcoming coronavirus vaccines at a White House summit Tuesday.
Pfizer’s vaccine is expected to be endorsed by a panel of Food and Drug Administration advisers as soon as this week, with delivery of 100 million doses — enough for 50 million Americans — expected in coming months.
Under its contract with Pfizer, the Trump administration committed to buy an initial 100 million doses, with an option to purchase as many as five times more.
This summer, the White House opted not to lock in an additional 100 million doses for delivery in the second quarter of 2021, according to people who spoke about the matter on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it publicly.
Days ahead of the vaccine’s expected approval, the administration is reversing course, but it is not clear that Pfizer, which has since made commitments to other countries, will be able to meet the latest request on the same timeline.
The Pfizer vaccine is one of two on track for emergency FDA authorization this month, the other coming from drugmaker Moderna.
The Trump administration insisted late Monday that between those two vaccines and others in the pipeline, the U.S. will be able to accommodate any American who wants to be vaccinated by the end of the second quarter of 2021….”
Cases are surging, hospitalizations and deaths are trending the same as average Decembers on record.
Take a look at the CDC numbers. Dig Deeper!
Death from COVID and death with COVID are very different categories but being counted as one and the same.
Anthony Fauci has heavy investment $$$ on the vaccine. How s that ethical?
The Treasure of Seein’ It My Way:
Act III, Sc. 3:
Dim Banditos: We’re federales, you know.
Bogeyman: Where’s your evidence, then?
Dim Banditos: Evidence? We don’t need no stinkin’ evidence!
Thank you for another thoughtful post, Mr. Turley.
Faith and science together will prevail as we navigate our way to the other side of this global health crisis.
Some of us are still holding on for Team Trump. Some of us have no anticipation of a second Trump term and are working our way deeper into a Biden-Harris transition. Some of us have a foot in service to each administration.
All of us sense the next few months will continue to test the nation.
JT says, “The statement [by Admiral Brett Giroir] presents a potential conflict with Dr. Anthony Fauci. It certainly contradicts the common narrative in the media[.]” This speaks very well for the accuracy and reliability of Admiral Brett Giroir’s statement, since Fauci and the media have been wrong about everything. And I do mean everything.
And now there is limited vaccine…but instead of eliminating recipients because they are already antibody…our leaders just want to give it categorically…..so all nurses.are up front….even if they already got anti bodies. What a waste of vaccine! Who is in charge? Fauci ….where is his list and checking it twice? Every vac wasted on someone with anti bodies is a wasted vaccine…and a trashing of that vax stats…..but we got logic and science…not! An old timer holding on …. Is all we got. I expected Biden not to waste precious vac on ppl who already have made the antibody list….jokers…come out with a category list….instead of a need list.
Almost immediately after the election I posted that the issue of massive election fraud was likely to be too big for the courts.
That seems to be proving true. The courts have been dodging on standing or claiming the case is moot without seriously addressing the substance of the problem. Some seem eager to provide sound bites with their decisions so that we can remember who fiddled while Rome burned.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/12/georgia-and-michigan-federal-courts-dismiss-sidney-powell-election-lawsuits/
It may be necessary for the President to reach deeply into his reserve powers to right what is a deliberate attempt by some foreign governments and domestic criminals to cancel the outcome of an American election. It is an attack on our entire government and it is a national security threat that the President can constitutionally address on his own.
The Korematsu v. United States case shows the enormous emergency powers that are within the grasp of any president when national security is at stake. It is commonplace to deplore the result of that decision, but the underlying power has not been overturned by any court. It is still there and it is an inherent power of the Executive.
This President may have to reach for that power while judges and politicians pontificate and fiddle as our system of government burns.
The singular America failure has been and is the judicial branch, with emphasis on the Supreme Court.
The legislative and executive branches were expected to exceed parameters; to “overreach.”
The judicial branch was brought into existence to assure adherence to the “manifest tenor” of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
– Nothing “Crazy Abe” Lincoln (elected with 38.9%) or his criminal successors did was constitutional, not an undeclared war of aggression against a sovereign foreign nation, not suspension of Habeas Corpus, not confiscation of private property, not a proclamation, not “fixing” his 1864 re-election and most certainly not “injurious” amendments forcibly imposed under the duress of brutal post-war military occupation (Slavery must have been abolished employing constitutional tools such as advocacy, boycotts, divestiture, etc.).
– Congress has no power to tax for anything but “…general Welfare…,” omitting and, thereby, excluding any power to tax for individual welfare, specific welfare, charity or redistribution of wealth.
– Congress has no power to regulate anything other than 1. the value of money. 2. the “flow” of commerce among nations, States and Indian tribes, and 3. land and naval Forces.
– The right to private property is not qualified by the Constitution and is, therefore, absolute.
The entire American welfare state is unconstitutional including but not limited to, affirmative action, quotas, welfare, food stamps, rent control, social services, forced busing, minimum wage, utility subsidies, WIC, TANF, HAMP, HARP, TARP, Agriculture, Commerce, Education, Labor, Energy, Obamacare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, Social Security Supplemental Income, Medicare, Medicaid, “Fair Housing” laws, “Non-Discrimination” laws, etc. Individuals my undertake any of these issues in the free markets of the private sector.
Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto 59 years after the adoption of the Constitution because none of the principles of the Communist Manifesto were in the Constitution. Had the principles of the Communist Manifesto been in the Constitution, Karl Marx would have had no reason to write the Communist Manifesto. The principles of the Communist Manifesto were not in the Constitution then and the principles of the Communist Manifesto are not in the Constitution now.
_______________________________________________________
“…courts…must…declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void.”
“…men…may do…what their powers do not authorize, [and] what they forbid.”
“[A] limited Constitution … can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing … To deny this would be to affirm … that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.”
– Alexander Hamilton
_________________
The singular America failure has been and is the judicial branch, with emphasis on the Supreme Court.
Here here.
Cut the crap Young. You’ve got nothing except butt hurt from the election so bad you can’t sit down.
Now The Loser is going door to door trying to get state politicians to overturn the democratic process. He is a disgrace and anyone supporting him or enabling him – that would be you Turley – is a complete disgrace to their country and to the human race.
Jonathan- If you end up being the only Trump sycophant left who does not contract COVID after flaunting all safety precautions – does that mean you take over the election lawsuits or do you become AG when Barr leaves?
“Just before I was interviewed today on Fox…” says it all. There is no doubt that our President is – still – criminally negligent and thus an accessory to the deaths of almost 300k Americans. Some of them were children, so Rubin was right and Turley wrong.
Joe Friday your brains are made of coprolite.
No doubt based on what facts? CNN? Please. Do what a thinking person would do – cross-check the data outside ALL media. What do REAL doctors say, ones that treat actual patients. They go far further… treat it like a bad flu. Protect those at risk, cover your damn face when you sneeze, improve your immune system.
But fear all you want. Blame it on “orange man bad” all you want. The data is there if you have the courage to seek it.
The China virus spreads in many ways. But not with comfort wipes.
Never touch another toilet tissue. It’s embarrassing to have someone help you with your personnel matters. Comfort wipes allows you to maintain your dignity while you maintain your personnel hygiene.
Newsom’s ban has no science behind it. Newsom doesn’t even believe it as proven when he had dinner INDOORS without masks or distancing in an enclosed space with a bunch of friends. These governors are high on power just like some get high on abusive sex.
Overdoing restrictions likely are causing a greater spread. People are moving from outdoor eating to indoors. People are staying indoors. Children are staying indoors. The safest place is outdoors and outdoor activities provide exercise, weight control , Vitamin D and other things. This is Democrat stupidity at its worst.
I’m trying to locate a state whose decrees and advisories include measures specifically tailored to protect the vulnerable – people over 60 and people over 50 with a high BMI. Pretty much zippo. Our public health authorities aren’t worth a pitcher of warm spit.
Art Deco, you are entirely right. That is what happens when government turns into an employment agency and politicians cease looking at the data.
By the time March turned around, the high risks were known and that is where all the effort should have gone along with the workplace where spread of the disease might not kill but could close down the most important producers of goods and services.
Not sure about March. I believe the Diamond Princess data was more or less complete by April. At that point they knew who was at risk.
NB, since March, the ratio of COVID deaths to non-COVID deaths has been as follows:
Under 25: 0.01
25-34: 0.03
35-44: 0.06
45-54: 0.1
55-64: 0.1
65-74: 0.1
75+: 0.1
That’s the premium over the normal mortality rate in those age groups. Normal mortality rates are such that < 2% of an annual birth cohort fails to reach their 25th birthday, < 2% dies between their 25th and 35th birth day, perhaps 2% dies between their 35th and 45th birthday, and perhaps 4% between their 45th and 55th birthday. These ratios describe modest increments over a low base. Note also the last year the National Center for Heath Statistics published the raw numbers of people who died in each age cohort, the median age at death was 79 years. The median age of a COVID death this year has been 76 years. This is an old person's disease, but almost nothing has been done to protect the old specifically.
In less than a year’s time, Covid has become the 3rd leading cause of death nationally. It’s likely the leading cause of death for people aged 25-44, https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201026/COVID-19-now-likely-leading-cause-of-death-among-25-44s-in-USA.aspx
“It’s likely the leading cause of death for people aged 25-44”
Can you tell us what that means? Is it based on real numbers? You must have some idea of the numbers. Can you post the major killers and the number of deaths?
Presumably you can read the link for yourself.
I see, you don’t know.
Was just asking to find out information. Sorry to embarrass you.
It’s not. Suicide is. And that’s a fact 22 vets lied to per day.
Yes, we should all take the word of a random internet commenter over research.
Yet mysteriously the number of total deaths per year has not changed in any statistical amount.
Hmm… (scratching chin…) let me think… I wonder if $32K/COVID case in a hospital would be an incentive sufficient motivation to change from unrelated actions like diabetes, heart disease, cancer to COVID if the guidelines allow it… and they do.
Do you think hospital corp leaders are going to leave that money on the table while having been shut down for elective surgery for half a year if the guidelines are so vague as to allow it?
Try thinking about the big picture honestly. You will see this is a data scam.
BTW, CDC and WHO admit they’ve never actually isolated the COVID-19 disease. The tests are comparing to a computer-generated isolation based on a tiny 37-pair section of the disease… 37 of a billion pairs, by the way. Do you wonder why we have so many false positives? Damn test comes back to show “your immune system is working on something…” not “you have COVID.”
“an estimated 299,028 excess deaths occurred from late January through October 3, 2020”
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm
What I see is that the 8:51 AM Anon. doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
By the time March turned around, the high risks were known and that is where all the effort should have gone along with the workplace where spread of the disease might not kill but could close down the most important producers of goods and services.
Actually, no. We barely understood the point of entry for SARS-CoV-2 never mind came to the collective understanding that its point of entry (ACE2) is highly expressed in adipose tissue. Getting Americans to admit that they willfully failed natural selection and hence succumbed to a virus with a fatality rate of less than 0.3%, and an incidence 10 times higher than being reported….. it will never happen….or at least not until the fat lady sings and she is on a respirator because …ya know….
The damage done to society at large, particularly children……astronomical. We are in a world of trouble as a nation.
Do you mean to tell me the information coming from other countries didn’t show that the virus was vastly more lethal to the elderly and sick? Are you telling me that towards the end of March when we passed 10,000 cases we didn’t know the virus was most lethal to the elderly? We didn’t have some sort of knowledge from the Diamond Princess as Art Deco tells us?
I find it hard to believe that early on we didn’t know it predominantly killed the elderly and the sick.
We didn’t have some sort of knowledge from the Diamond Princess as Art Deco tells us?
The Diamond Princess data is wonderful data…for the Diamond Princess population. Otherwise, it is not applicable to the global stage.
As for what Art Deco tells you, well… that’s on you. insert 10′ pole here
@Estovir
I’m not dealing with what Art Deco said. The Diamond Princess is an interesting addition by Art Deco
We had information from other countries.
In March we passed 10,000 cases
Are you telling me the above isn’t true?
If the above is true are you telling me it wasn’t noticed who was dying and who was surviving?
If we didn’t know the breakdown in age and health status then there is something seriously wrong with our health departments and our mathematicians.
Several comments:
With the cruise ship you are succumbing to selection bias.
Age in itself is not the qualifier that predisposes a person to COVID-19 events. It is their underlying medical conditions, it is the medications that they may or may not be taking, it may also be a weakened immune system as a result of aging PLUS poor lifestyle habits like sedentary life. Not all elderly people have a compromised immune system. However, anyone who is obese, hypertensive, diabetic, etc…they most certainly have a taxed immune system.
Chronic medical conditions (e.g. obesity, hypertension, Type 2 Diabetes, etc, etc, etc.) that have been taxing a patient’s overall health and thus taxing their immune system and also leading to a triggered inflammatory state, these are the real issues not age per se.
People who have the money to spend on cruise ships are a very unique population. They are usually a floating ship of very sick people with chronic medical conditions, sedentary, obese, taking multiple meds, etc. You should not be surprised that these people get sick. The flu would make them equally as sick and that is generally true as well for flu death rates . You want to conclude that the cruise ship patients were affected because of their age alone. that is not the case at all. There are millions of older people who have endured COVID and they have not died. Incidentally, the death rate from the cruise ship was like 1%.
I’m not persuaded that 1% warrants what we have experienced in our nation.
Lastly, with the incidence of COVID-19 being 10 times higher than what is being reported, you need to account for how the severe illnesses are astonishingly small.
read the articles in the medical papers. We’ve been discussing this topic for months with my providing scores of these articles, and when I did, less than 3 people even engaged them: Allan, Praire, Olly, I think. Look for them on here. As it is I rarely visit these pages anymore and have learned that discussing science with this group is a losing proposition. People on here are not interested in discussing science. They just want to club each other to death. Not my thing.
Cheers
The cruise ship was an extra. That was separate from: the information from other countries and our own information with over 10,000 dead by the end of March.
When I made my remark that we knew a lot, I was referring to, we knew who was at risk. We didn’t have the ability to stop the spread or provide an instant cure. We had to wait for a vaccine. All of that required time and energy.
However, knowing who would die told us the job was to isolate the elderly and the sick. Instead Covid became a political football for the left and with it they shut down the nation destroying the economy and many lives.
“Instead Covid became a political football for the left and with it they shut down the nation destroying the economy and many lives.”
Well said, Barb.
That is the evil of the Covid tyrants. They treat combatting Covid as if were the only value in life, and that all other values — rights, career, happiness, education — should all be sacrificed at the altar of COVID.
They’re like savages who placate an angry god, by throwing the innocent into a volcano.
The decrees in LA do not apply to homeless, to movie people, and to ‘demonstrators’, regarding all of whom the science has been settled are immune.
Our politicians are jackals.
Art–I’m trying to locate a state whose decrees and advisories include measures specifically tailored to protect the vulnerable – people over 60 and people over 50 with a high BMI.”
*****
Pretty easy to find at least one state that has tailored measures to kill the vulnerable–New York.
Infected patients shoe-horned into nursing homes which became killing dorms.
“…OR TO THE PEOPLE…”
“Protect Yourself”
______________
“You can’t handle the truth!”
– Colonel Jessup
_____________
You can’t grasp the scope and breadth of American freedom.
People were provided maximal freedom while Congress and government were severely limited and restricted.
With freedom comes self-reliance.
Please cite the Constitution wherein healthcare is to be provided by Congress and wherein individuals are relieved of any responsibility to attend to their own, individual, personal health needs.
The 10th Amendment reserves powers not delegated to the United States to the States “…or to the people.”
You can run but you can’t hide from the flu.
Vulnerable people must self-quarantine.
Please see 8:43 PM above.
You go too far with your rhetoric, Turley. Do you need money that badly? You said: “Democrats insisted that President Donald Trump was trying to kill children by pushing to reopen schools,” No Democrat politician ever accused that fat slob of deliberately trying to kill children, although they have pointed out how his incarceration of brown children has resulted in the deaths of some of them. What they have said is to listen to the scientists, something Trump refuses to do, including pushing for hydroxychloroquine, and bullying the FDA to grant emergency use authorization. That act alone is one reason why so many Americans don’t trust the vaccine–they know they can’t trust Trump because he lies, because he can bully scientists who should know better than to do what he commands them to do, and mostly, because he doesn’t care about the welfare of Americans. He has politicized COVID and the vaccine. Now, people are wary. They would be stupid to suddenly start believing him now. That’s why past Presidents and celebrities are trying to help out. How pathetic.
Jennifer Rubin is a columnist for a newspaper. She is not a representative of the Democratic party. Recommendations have varied since the start of this pandemic and have changed as more evidence has accumulated, but no Democrat has ever been as egregious in dealing with COVID as Trump, who called it a “hoax” dreamed up by Democrats to take him down. Listen again to Bob Woodward’s tapes wherein Trump admits lying to the public about COVID. You cannot help but wonder how could things have been different if that fat slob hadn’t invaded our White House because he was jealous of the success of a young, trim, popular black man who became President.
You want to talk about bad advice? Ingraham actually had some hack on her program last week, who claimed to be a retired microbiologist, and who claimed that Dr. Fauci doesn’t know what he’s taking about. Republicans are killing people–first, by not standing up to Trump and letting him get away with politicizing the pandemic, by bullying scientists to approve quack cures and by putting out lies like Ingraham has done. Turley never has anything bad to say about Republicans.
This is not March or April. This is December. We know what the science says, we know there are countermeasures that are effective…
Would it surprise anyone if climate change scientists weren’t trying to find a way to link their science to the science behind pandemics?
The public health mavens who signed that letter last June saying that for public health, it was important to protest ‘racism’, would be most receptive to that.
I’ll ride one of my hobby horses here. We have good reason to believe that teacher’s colleges (‘schools of education’), schools of social work, and schools of library administration should be replaced. The public health mavens have been teaching us that their faculties need to be shut down as well.
Follow the science means following the scientists that you want to believe, regardless of facts. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” (John Adams)
Feynman said you may have a beautiful theory but no matter how beautiful it may be if it doesn’t fit the facts you need a new theory.
You stick to conspiracy theories that don’t fit the facts. Listen to Feynman.
In LA I see that everyone has been wearing masks for awhile, even while driving and riding bicycles in many cases. Yet cases are surging in California. Could it be that masks aren’t working as well as claimed? Why, yes, it could be! Go see for yourself. Or you can navel gaze on your theories and ignore facts visible to everyone except Democrat politicians.
We should all rely on convenience samples like you. It would make statistics so much easier.
Works better than sitting in the Lotus Position and dreaming up b.s.
As for statistics, follow the actual number of new cases in California. Staggering. Not convenience samples, but new cases for the entire state population.
I wouldn’t get mixed up in the mask wars. Of course, not quite as silly as Peter Hill raging about HCQ because Trump mentioned it at a press conference.
My suspicion at this point (and that’s all it is), is that the crucial factor is the quantum of time that people spend indoors in recirculated air, and that the relationship between time spent and risk of infection is nonlinear. The US has had a different experience than Europe or various tropical countries, I think because we’ve a wider variety of climatic zones. What happened in one European country after another is that illnesses and death dropped to nearly zero, then it exploded again a couple of months ago. I think that suggests that transmission via surfaces is not common. You’ll also notice that Germany’s second wave has surpassed its first in severity. Germany may have some effective public health measures no one else in the occidental world is using, but this ailment is still strongly influenced by the season and the amount of dry tinder lying around. France, Spain, Britain, &c are having an easier time of it than they did last spring; Italy’s suffering is about the same, just not so concentrated in Lombardy. Eastern Europe is having it’s first wave; number of countries have hit a plateau, but Russia’s shown no sign of it yet.
Art– “My suspicion at this point (and that’s all it is), is that the crucial factor is the quantum of time that people spend indoors in recirculated air, and that the relationship between time spent and risk of infection is nonlinear.”
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That is very like what I have begun to think as well. I have wondered if it wouldn’t be a good idea to put strong UV lights in the duct work of buildings where air is recirculated. It wouldn’t solve the problem but it might help reduce concentration of infectious agents. Not much to lose by trying it.
California has a large population. If you look at the per capita rates, you’ll see that many other states are worse off.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100klast7days
True, New York being one of them, but the question is whether almost universal mask wearing will hinder the virus. The daily infection rates in California suggest they are not very effective in slowing the virus. In Europe rates are very high in those countries most stringent on mask enforcement. I suspect they give some a false sense of security. Even with a mask I am not going to hang around long in a closed room with more than a handful of people. But some do.
What percentage of Californians wear masks consistently?
Some people have no choice but to hang around in a closed room with a bunch of other people. That’s where they work, and they cannot afford not to.
Some people are fighting court cases right now to be allowed hang around in a closed room with a bunch of other people at their churches, synagogues, mosques.
I see them everywhere, wearing masks in and out of buildings, some even wearing them while driving alone in cars and riding bicycles. Compliance is near universal. Come to California and see for yourself. MSNBC isn’t a substitute for your lying eyes despite what they say. But, come to think of it, California might not let you in now if you don’t show your papers. And once here you can’t do anything except make a movie, riot, or live on the sidewalk.
Masks reduce transmission. They don’t prevent it.
You just made my consistent point in these threads. Masks might reduce transmission but not prevent it. California and some European countries that demand mask wearing and get it are showing rates of new infection that suggest they may not be very good even at prevention.
Meanwhile, the surgeon general has correctly pointed out that driving people indoors puts them where transmission is more likely.
Some measures are needed to control the virus, but our ‘expert’ politicians are not very good at it.
O.J. Simpson was found not guilty.
That’s a fact!
We don’t need no education.
We don’t need no thought control!
All in all it’s just another glitch in the road!
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Go have dinner with Giuliani.
“…OR TO THE PEOPLE…”
The 10th Amendment reserves “…or to the people…” the powers not delegated to the United States.
Most certainly, the people as individuals have the freedom and the power of personal healthcare and the freedom and the power of individual, self-quarantine.
The 10th Amendment does not conflate or combine the State and the people.
The 10th Amendment separates and differentiates between the State, as a collective, and the people, as individuals.
In the event that it is necessary, compelling and self-evident that the people must respond collectively, such as during a military invasion or insurrection, the powers are reserved to the States.
The 10th Amendment does not impose State tyranny.
The Constitution does not provide Congress any power to tax for individual healthcare, individual welfare, specific welfare, individual charity or redistribution of wealth.
The Constitution provides Congress the power to tax merely for “…general Welfare…,” general meaning all.
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10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the peopl
The Ninth Amendment Right to Privacy gives us the right to eat in our own back yards and ….