Minnesota Woman Arrested After Running Over Man Who Allegedly Robbed Her

There is an interesting criminal case out of Minnesota that highlights both criminal and tort doctrines on the defense of self and defense of property.  Landis Rachel Hill, 31, and her boyfriend, Christopher Dwayne Grayson, were arrested after Hill ran over a man who allegedly robbed them. Al Rakip J. Zaidi, 21, died from “severe head trauma” after being hit by their 2001 Ford Expedition.

Hill and Grayson reportedly told the police that they were sleeping in their car when Zaidi took a cell phone and money from the front seat. Grayson then chased Zaidi with a baseball bat as Hill chased him in the car. Hill eventually ran him over and then left the scene.

Both Hill and Grayson later turned themselves into police. Grayson was not charged but Hill is charged with second-degree murder and criminal vehicular homicide.

The case highlights rivaling doctrines that we often discuss in Torts. Many states now have “Castle doctrine” laws, which allow people to use lethal force in defense of their homes. Called “Make My Day” laws in some states, there are also “Make My Day Better” laws allowing people to use lethal force in defense of other property like cars. There are also laws like “Stand Your Ground” discussed in such well-known cases as the trial of George Zimmerman (though it was ultimately not used in favor of a conventional self-defense claim).

Minnesota has a Castle Doctrine law. However, it does not have a Stand Your Ground law and there is a “duty to retreat” before using lethal force outside of the home. The law specifically states:

609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.

“The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor’s place of abode.”

This case is particularly bad for the defense because it is a case of pursuit or retaliation. The danger had passed with the flight of the alleged felon. Even under the common law (which does not require retreat), you cannot retaliate. The privilege of self-defense exists only in the moment of danger and gives no license to mete out justice after the threat has passed.

The case also highlights the doctrines related to the protection or recovery of property. The common law does not allow force calculated to cause serious bodily harm or death in the protection of property. In famous cases like Bird v. Holbrook, 4 Bing. 628, 130 Eng. Rep. 911 (1825), courts have imposed liability in the use of snare guns or man traps to protect property because “[n]o man can do indirectly that which he is forbidden to do directly.” What you “cannot do directly” under the common law is defend property with lethal force. The Bird case is often cited for the long-standing rule that no property is viewed as more valuable than a human life.

That means that Hill can be charged criminally and even sued civilly on these facts if proven.

The one possible defense for Hill could arise if Grayson was near Zaidi and she claimed that she was trying to protect him. They are allowed to pursue Zaidi and seek to recover their property. Reasonable force is allowed in the recovery of chattel. Restatement (Second) of Torts § 218 cmt. e (“sufficient legal protection … of his chattel is afforded by his privilege to use reasonable force to protect his possession against even harmless interference.”). Of  course, if a thief resists, such “self-help” measures can change from defense of property to defense of self (which allows greater levels of commensurate force). There is no indication in the news reports that Zaidi was threatening or even near Grayson.

Absent such a defense, Hill would be left with a claim that she did not intend to hit or kill Zaidi. However, police report the couple as just saying that they were tired of being robbed. The statement given to the police could leave only a plea as a viable option.

140 thoughts on “Minnesota Woman Arrested After Running Over Man Who Allegedly Robbed Her”

  1. Reposted from below:

    Enigma–

    I checked your article about the Constitution promoting slavery.

    You are so anxious to find racism everywhere that you got this one completely backwards.

    Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1 is a clause intended to limit slavery. After 20 years Congress could ban the slave trade. Why not right away? Because then there would have no Constitution and no promise to ban it in 20 years.

    As with many compromises both parties came away with something they needed but less than they wanted. The part of the Constitution you called racist is actually a clear attempt to limit slavery within the scope of what was then possible.

    As for Jefferson’s thoughts:

    “In December 1806, President Thomas Jefferson’s annual message to Congress anticipated the upcoming expiration of Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1. His message said, “I congratulate you, fellow-citizens, on the approach of the period at which you may interpose your authority constitutionally to withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unoffending inhabitants of Africa, and which the morality, the reputation, and the best interests of our country have long been eager to proscribe.” Does it seem odd that a slave owner was supporting this legislation?”

    Since you clearly do not understand this provision, or Jefferson, please read this comment by two professors, Gordon Lloyd and Jenny Martinez.

    https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/interpretation/article-i/clauses/761

    I am beginning to think you would find racism in a bowl of fruit. It appears to be an obsession that has clouded your entire mind just as Trump has overwhelmed the mind of Jeff–Whoopie Cushion.

  2. Below is part of a blog and links including discussion of a new book by Philip Hamburger. Some will remember his name from prior discussions, I haven’t had time to listen to the video yet, but I think this might be interesting to a number of people, Young in particular. The book is one I am considering adding to my list of purchases, but wonder if young read the earlier one, Is Administrative Law Unlawful. Hamburger likely is writing for a limited audience.

    —-
    (NOT THAT) BILL WALTON WITH PHILIP HAMBURGER
    Philip Hamburger holds an endowed chair at Columbia Law School and is author, most recently, of Purchasing Submission: Conditions, Power, and Freedom, just published by Harvard University Press. I was a fanatic admirer of Professor Hamburger’s Is Administrative Law Unlawful? (2014), which I reviewed for National Review in “A new old regime.” I thought it was the most important book I had read in a long time and still do.

    Professor Hamburger’s new book is shorter, narrower, and more accessible than Is Administrative Law Unlawful? In Purchasing Submission he takes up the issue of the federal government’s use of indirect power to impose legal requirements through conditions (“regulation effected by bureaucratic bribery, extortion, and barratry,” as Ninth Circuit Judge Carlos Bea pungently puts it in a quote on the book jacket).

    Cont: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/10/not-that-bill-walton-with-philip-hamburger.php

    1. S. Meyer–

      I saw that blog post and was tempted to buy Hamburger’s timely new book, but it is rather expensive. I already own “Is Administrative Law Unlawful’ a superb legal work. But I think I will wait for the used price on the new one, much as I would like to have it.

      Nice to see that you posted this comment and link.

      1. Young says:

        I saw that blog post and was tempted to buy Hamburger’s timely new book, but it is rather expensive. I already own “Is Administrative Law Unlawful’ a superb legal work. But I think I will wait for the used price on the new one, much as I would like to have it.”

        Even a skinflint like yourself must have a copy of Levin’s “American Marxism,” the New Testament of Trumpism.

  3. Turley constantly laments our “age of rage,” but what is he doing to eliminate it? Does writing about these trivial stories help? He proclaims that good speech will disinfect bad speech. Where is his good speech?

    If Turley was not beholden to Fox News, he would have the moral courage to do as Liz Cheney is doing:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/576119-cheney-blasts-scalise-for-refusing-to-say-bidene-legitimately-won-election

    Turley will live to regret distracting our attention away from the pressing matters of our day and remaining silent when people like Cheney are willing to risk their political careers to speak the truth.

    Turley is a moral coward.

    1. “Turley is a moral coward.”

      Turley, who so happens to be a left-of-center Democrat, is a brave man who is willing to say what he believes and have his own people cowardly try to knife him in the back.

    2. Jeff, you are one pathetic person to hate someone and then visit their site every day. What is the mindset that has you punishing yourself by not “changing the channel”? I don’t watch CNN or MSNBC, I cancelled my subscription to the Boston Globe, I stopped picking up the occasional Sunday NY Times and I continued watching Fox News, started reading Twitchy, Townhall, PJ Media and especially Realclear Politics AND JONATHAN TURLEY!!!!

      Professor Turley’s site, like REALCLEAR, is a non-biased, more or less neutral site but with so much unbelievable left wing slant on most media platforms it only seems like they are conservative.

      The leftist media, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, NY Times, LA Times, Boston Globe the AP, Facebook, Twitter, Google and even a little paper in SW Florida called the News-Press are so damn far left that when a moderate entity enters the arena of opinion the leftist fascist-minded creeps start to demand that they shut down. There have been many calls to ban Tucker and Laura and even to eliminate Fox News, but NOT ONE CALL TO BAN ANY OF THE MYRIAD OF LEFTIST PLATFORMS.

      The right has never called for a ban on anything from the left and yet we have little 14 year old juveniles like JeffSilberman wishing that Professor Turley would go away. Jeffy needs his safe space and instead of “changing this station” he wants this monster removed from under his bed.

      1. Hullbobby,

        You childish insults notwithstanding, I am here to stay. If you don’t like me, tough. You are not going to silence me. This site is not a Conservative safe zone. I know that my comments may upset you because no one likes to be exposed as a godd*mn Trumpist liar. Too bad.

        1. Learn to read, I don’t care if you stay, I don’t call for boycotts, but I wonder why you visit if you hate the host so much. Seem…odd. Kind of like you,

          1. Bobby,

            I don’t hate anyone I have not met personally. I respect that Turley is not a Trumpist. I just wish he would take a stand against Trumpism like Liz Cheney. You’ll notice he has NEVER criticized her for attacking Trumpists. That’s because he secretly agrees with her. I’m just disappointed in Turley that he won’t come out and say so publicly. I suspect he has not because of his employment at Fox News where Cheney is reviled.

            1. Little Jeffry will be happy if Turley would just become like Liz Cheney, a woman that Little Jeffry hated about one year ago.
              Jeff, Turley is NOT Cheney, if you want Liz Cheney stick to MSNBC or Axios or The Huff Post and leave us the heck alone.

              1. Hullbobby pleads:

                “Jeff, Turley is NOT Cheney, if you want Liz Cheney stick to MSNBC or Axios or The Huff Post and leave us the heck alone.”

                One day Turley will be asked by his grown kids why he was not courageous like Liz Cheney in condemning Trumpism *publicly.* How will Turley explain his silence in not commending Cheney??

                You don’t seem to understand my friend. Never Trumpers will ALWAYS remind you of your Trumpist lies. We will shame you and NEVER let you forget. We will not leave you alone UNTIL you apologize for lying that the election was stolen.

                Are we clear?

                  1. Young says:

                    “The Whoopie Cushion strikes again.”

                    How young are you? Seriously, are you a teenager?

  4. I can still remember the motto of “The People’s Court”:

    “Don’t take the law into your own hands. You take them to court.”

    But I guess this person never learned.

    1. OK, the obvious question is how do we know Hill & Grayson’s accounts are accurate? Zaidi is unable to offer his account. We’re there other witnesses to the episode?

  5. “Sleeping in their car”? I suspect drugs were involved in this encounter. Turning themselves in was their mistake.

  6. Legal doctrines restricting self-help by victims of theft and violence are built on a simple premise: the integrity of our social fabric. That theft and violence are wrong. That the police will deter crime and apprehend the perpetrators. That once apprehended, the perpetrators will be prosecuted. That the government forms an integral part of the social fabric that protects ordinary people from crime.

    Our social fabric is beyond frayed. Progressives and their policies are hell-bent on destroying it. Unfortunately, renewed reliance self help and legal doctrines like the castle doctrine and make my day laws are one result.

    Yet Progressives fail to see that they are destroying the same fabric that clothes their rule. Like would-be emperors surrounded by courtiers who are too cowed to speak the truth, they are the last to know they are standing naked before the inevitable Minnesota winter.

  7. Robbery is a crime against the person. Asportation is an element of robbery. As long as the asportation continues, the robbery continues. Soooooo, I would argue that Hill and Grayson were defending their persons against a violent felony being perpetrated upon them, including chasing the perpetrator. The only question would be: is unarmed robbery a violent felony. That would depend, I think, on how the robbery was perpetrated. Robbery usually requires either force or snatching. If this robbery was perpetrated by force, I would argue it is a violent felony perpetrated upon the persons of Hill and Grayson and they were permitted to used deadly force to prevent the crime, including the asportation. If , on the other hand, the robbery was perpetrated by a snatching, maybe deadly force would not be allowed.

      1. Pro-Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, without diversity [dogma] (i.e. class-based) labels and judgments? No, this does not seem to be an act of self-defense, or the modern frame of “heroism” that engenders Democrat pride parades.

  8. Separate from the legal ramifications: I believe them. They are tired of being robbed. This is what far Left rule looks like. Makes me wonder who she voted for, and it makes me wonder what people expected to happen after summer 2020 and the Left’s subsequent descent even further into insanity. Stop voting for them, and do it in great enough numbers that it doesn’t matter what strings the DNC and Soros are pulling!

    1. James, you look for any excuse to blame the Left. Crime is generally a class thing. Police forces were designed to protect property and lives of rich people. In the South, their focus was protecting against revolt of the enslaved, in the North controlling immigrants. The status of the targets has changed to some degree, the primary mission has not. This story has nothing to do with the left or defund the police which likely means something different than you believe.

      1. “Police forces were designed to protect property and lives of rich people.”

        Enigma, “Rich people,” can afford private protection and security. Loads of PUD’s (planned unit developments) or gated communities hire security for additional protection. In other words, they pay for protection. Additionally, “rich people” move to safer areas, so they spend more. Again, they are paying for the added security. Police also protect property and are supposed to stop looters that steal and destroy property.

        The “non-rich people” often lose their jobs when riots and looting occur, as we saw with the riots from BLM and Antifa. The police have a tough job, but without them, guess who ends up without money? The non-rich.

        Police also protect poor people to the extent they are permitted. Whether white or black, affluent leftists want to defund the police or prevent them from doing their job to protect life and property. We see the result of that in cities like Chicago. Look at the death rate.

        Anyone that wishes to prove you wrong can do so easily by looking at the numbers. Who is dying at an increased rate when police are defunded, partially defunded, or have their hands tied—none other than the poor and primarily minorities. Your attitude is precisely the cause of more deaths in the black communities and hinders minorities who wish to be upwardly mobile.

        1. It must be nice to just make shit up and pass it along as fact. Please cite the statistics from the cities that “defunded police” and what that defunding entailed. There are actual numbers where the police stopped responding to calls in protest of imagined defunding and criticism of them being able to do whatever the hell that want. The only thing you had half right was that rich people can afford to have their own police forces. Many of the modern police forces, especially in the Northeast and shipping centers got their start protecting rich people’s property. But rich people also don’t continue to pay for things they can get the public to pay for. Very few people want the police defunded, they want resources shifted to not send trigger-happy officers to address mental health issues they aren’t trained for. They want to have school resource officers stop arresting elementary school. They also want to stop overpolicing of minority communities and elimination of sentencing disparities and stop & frisk. Too mush to ask for?
          https://www.propublica.org/article/black-children-were-jailed-for-a-crime-that-doesnt-exist

          1. “Please cite the statistics from the cities that “defunded police” and what that defunding entailed. ”

            Enigma, please read what was written. I wrote: “when police are defunded, partially defunded, or have their hands tied.”

            Take a look at the NYC murder rate.

            Today we are not concerned about how police departments developed. We know how things were handled without police; on the spot lynching, but maybe that is an answer you are fond of. I like the police and want more of them in the inner city to protect the innocent. I don’t want the police having their hands tied so innocents get murdered. I want responsible police departments.

            “Very few people want the police defunded”

            I agree, but the big mouth affluent leftists promoting leftism talked a heck of a lot about defunding or otherwise reducing police effectiveness.

            “They want to have school resource officers stop arresting elementary school. They also want to stop overpolicing of minority communities and elimination of sentencing disparities and stop & frisk.”

            In other words, to make things appear nicer, you want more black deaths in the inner cities. You are unhappy with stop, question and then frisk where the police removed guns from known violent offenders. The mothers that want their children to succeed are pleased when illegal guns are removed.

            The same leftists want to stop the growth of Charter Schools in NYC, which have reversed a downward spiral in education for the black community, at least for those who could get into these Charter Schools. You probably side with the leftists that would close them down if they could, even though that would mean more black deaths.

            Don’t provide a blog that doesn’t consider reality but shows how the leftists causing the deaths of black kids are in the right. I want the killings in these Liberal cities to end. I want the children educated. What do you want?

          2. Enigma: “They also want to stop overpolicing of minority communities and elimination of sentencing disparities and stop & frisk. Too mush to ask for?”
            +++
            I lived in a ghetto area in the South for about a year, probably a much tougher neighborhood than you have ever lived in. What I saw was a lot of crime, mostly stealing from each other, but often newspaper reports of captured robbers and rapists would give a home address in our neighborhood.

            The other thing I saw was that my black neighbors were regularly calling the police on each other. I had never before nor since seen so many locals demanding that the police come for one reason or the other, often for trivial problems but sometimes for serious issues.

            You might peddle your academic ‘we are victims’ b.s. to others here but it won’t wash with me. I’ve been there and seen the reality for myself.

            Black males, about 7% of the total population are responsible for more than 54% of all murders in this country according to FBI statistics. I think that the rate is actually quite a bit higher than that. In Washington, Baltimore, New Orleans and similar cities only about 50% of the murders are cleared [often less] and given where the murders take place it is almost certain that perpetrators and victims are black. The 54% rate in the statistics clearly understates the true level of homicidal behavior of just 7% of the population.

            In cities that have ‘reformed’ or reduced police forces like Minneapolis and Seattle the murder rate has skyrocketed. That information is easy to find if you are not unwilling to look.

            1. “Black males, about 7% of the total population are responsible for more than 54% of all murders in this country according to FBI statistics. I think that the rate is actually quite a bit higher than that.”

              I can see how believing such a statistic would cause you to feel a certain kind of way. What if that statistic is totally wrong (as it is) and mad up by someone to get you to feel that way? Show me that statistic from the FBI and I’ll totally bow down to you. Not from InfoWars, or a guest on Fox News but from an FBI study. I did find some statistics that make your alleged facts impossible but here’s your chance to prove me wrong.
              https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fact-check-meme-shows-incorrect-homicide-stats-race/5739522002/

              1. Enigma:

                They don’t make it easy but I have seen it before on the official FBI crime reports. I found this article that explains the data but they assume that people will not believe them so they link to the FBI reports so you can see and calculate it for yourself.

                https://www.amren.com/news/2020/09/fbi-blacks-made-up-55-9-of-known-murder-offenders-in-2019/

                You know Minneapolis has been calling for defunding the police and reducing the force but the officers are beating them to the draw by quitting and leaving as soon as they can resulting in a significant reduction in force.

                https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/why-stay-law-enforcement-advocates-explain-exodus-from-police-forces

                The city leaders have created a hostile work environment for police officers and they are responding accordingly. Recruitment isn’t going well either. Who wants to work in a city that hates your guts and will throw you in prison for trying to do your job?

                Chauvin was railroaded and I think it likely the appellate court will overturn the conviction if any of the justices have enough spine to stand tall against mob fury. Unfortunately, Chauvin has been denied a public defender to help with his appeal.

                No cop with an IQ above 85 should work there unless he is already within reach of a pension and can spend his shifts safely tucked away in donut shops or cathouses…or bath houses for some of them. Definitely not on the street slowing crime.

                  1. Enigma–“I see 2,594 white offenders and 566 Black. Do you see something different?

                    +++

                    Not different, but more. You need to combine the victims and the perpetrators and not focus only on white.

                    Confirmation bias. You left out the black victims and perpetrators. Black victims are people too. Here is how it looks:

                    White 3,299 victims with 2,594 white perpetrators and 566 black perpetrators
                    Black, 2,906 victims with 246 white perpetrators and 2,574 black perpetrators

                    Total of 6,205 victims and 2,840 white perpetrators and 3,140 black perpetrators

                    That’s a heck of a lot of murders by only 7% of the population. Also note, a heck of a lot of black folk are being murdered by a relatively small number of other blacks.

                    Thanks for that cite. It’s worse than I thought.

                    1. The first chart presented displays UCR murder rate by “Race, Sex, and Ethnicity of Victim …”. (…table6.xls)

                      The below chart might be of greater utility in the discussion of actual homicide suspects:

                      https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

                      There are aspects of the statistics that might not be apparent to draw concrete conclusions, such as that many murders are committed by as of then not positiviely identified suspects, the variying degrees of compliance with reporting agencies as to ethnicities, and the framework for which data must be cast into.

                    2. You are correct in that I missed some significant data, enough to make me go back and look much closer. The total number of victims in each of the three categories is 6,578. Compare that to the estimated 16, 425 estimated murders in America in 2019 (your original source said 16,245). The stats only cover a little more than a third or homicides in the country. Your source extrapolates limited data to assume it’s true for the entire country. Looking at the limited data almost all Hispanic or Latino victims week killed by white people? I question that as well given that intra-race killings are the norm amongst white and Black people. I also wonder how the FBI classifies people as Black or anything else and what constitutes a “known” offender. If nothing else, it seems very few white people are being killed by Black people according to these stats. Take from that what you will.

                    3. Darren–

                      Thank you. That is a superior table. I will have to defer a closer look till later–chores–but it is good.

                      Enigma– I agree with you that there is a lot of fuzziness in the data. Your question as to how someone may be classified as black is certainly relevant. I am sure there are many other inherent ambiguities in the reported data.

                      I think all of us agree that it is important to get the best and clearest data we can and let the data take us to conclusions rather than any inherent presuppositions we inevitably will have. All of us are burdened by that and only objective data can help us get beyond it. It isn’t easy when the national conversation is dominated by intense and emotional rhetoric.

                    4. https://www.creators.com/read/walter-williams/06/20/the-true-plight-of-black-americans

                      The True Plight of Black Americans
                      Walter E. Williams, June 10, 2020

                      While it might not be popular to say in the wake of the recent social disorder, the true plight of black people has little or nothing to do with the police or what has been called “systemic racism.” Instead, we need to look at the responsibilities of those running our big cities.

                      Some of the most dangerous big cities are: St. Louis, Detroit, Baltimore, Oakland, Chicago, Memphis, Atlanta, Birmingham, Newark, Buffalo and Philadelphia. The most common characteristic of these cities is that for decades, all of them have been run by liberal Democrats. Some cities — such as Detroit, Buffalo, Newark and Philadelphia — haven’t elected a Republican mayor for more than a half-century. On top of this, in many of these cities, blacks are mayors, often they dominate city councils, and they are chiefs of police and superintendents of schools.

                      White liberals and black politicians focus most of their attention on what the police do, but how relevant is that to the overall tragedy? According to Statista, this year, 172 whites and 88 blacks have died at the hands of police. To put police shootings in a bit of perspective, in Chicago alone in 2020 there have been 1,260 shootings and 256 homicides with blacks being the primary victims. That comes to one shooting victim every three hours and one homicide victim every 15 hours. Three people in Chicago have been killed by police. If one is truly concerned about black deaths, shootings by police should figure way down on one’s list — which is not to excuse bad behavior by some police officers.

                      On the other hand, my favorite analysis of the plight of Black Americans is LBJ’s Sociologist, Daniel Moynihan’s:

                      The Negro Family: The Case for National Action
                      Office of Policy Planning and Research
                      United States Department of Labor
                      March 1965
                      https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/webid-moynihan

                      Moynihan was excoriated at the time for being a racist, but with the passage of time, he was prophetic.

                      If you are really serious about this topic, become familiar with any number of pieces by Thomas Sowell. He and Walter Williams argue from both personal experience as black men raised in poverty, and academic credentialed economists. Then again, because Williams and Sowell are Black, educated and preach against the liberal narrative, they don’t get much attention.

                    5. When i grew up in Harlem in the 40s and 50s, I never heard a gunshot. Now i’m sure someone fired a gun somewhere in Harlem, but it was not such a pervasive thing that you had to hear it. I have relatives in Washington i ask them the same questions, people in my generation growing up in Washington DC, yes and low-income black neighborhoods: “did you ever hear a gunshot when you were growing up?” and the answer was no. I have relatives in North Carolina asked the same question, “no”. Now you know people in housing projects especially they put kids some of them to bed in bathtubs so that they won’t be hit by stray bullets in the night. Now we take it for granted that there’s crimes tremendous levels of crime and violence in the black community that was not always the case

                      Thomas Sowell on the Current Black Culture

                  1. No idea. I used it only to find the link to the fbi statistics. I didn’t read the comments and don’t care about them.

                  2. I looked at the comments and think you can draw any conclusion you like. My conclusion was that people are less willing to pretend that high levels of black criminality don’t exist or that it is because of whites or Asians rather than factors in their own community.

                    Time to grow up and act like men rather than angry children and take responsibility.

                    1. There are dozens of reasons for high levels of crime in poor neighborhoods, many of which are Black. There are reasons many of them are Black. You could never see the systemic racism at the base of many of them. Black ghettoes were formed because it was the only place Blacks were allowed to live, jobs were scarce and they were paid less. They didn’t move to the suburbs because for decades they couldn’t get VA and FHA loans while those programs formed the middle class. And now you read those comments and come to the conclusion it’s Black peoples fault while ignoring the racism spouted.
                      It’s how you pretend not to see voter suppression while 49 states attempt to enact it. It’s how you ignore police behavior differs when policing and later sentencing Black people. It’s how a sentencing disparity between crack and powdered cocaine can be hailed when it’s reduced from 100:1 to a mere 18:1. You actually don’t want Black people to take responsibility by voting in our system because you (a general you not you personally) are watching if not actively supporting as our entire election system is in upheaval trying to cancel Black votes, randomly targeting Black cities and making it possible for state legislatures to overrule elections where they don’t like the result no matter how many audits prove them correct.
                      It’s easier to insist Black people “grow up” and take responsibility for a system they had almost no part in creating. Sure, you can give the Black Congressional Caucus credit for mass incarceration when in reality they’ve never gotten a bill passed on their own in life. You say America is not a racist country while you blatantly look the other way or blame the affected. How about you taking some responsibility and implementing change? Like Patrick Henry, you would miss the conveniences of racism too much to let them go. Too bad.

                      “Would any one believe that I am master of slaves by my own purchase? I am drawn along by the general inconvenience of living without them. I will not — I cannot justify it, however culpable my conduct.”

                    2. “it was the only place Blacks were allowed to live”

                      “Only place?”, perhaps you would like to correct your black and white comment. Years ago, I traveled through the countryside of France to places that hadn’t seen an American since WW2. The people living in some small towns were obviously poor, but they made their homes look clean and inviting.

                      Enigma, it is not the rich landlord that throws garbage in the halls and on the streets. It is not the people from the wealthy communities that are selling drugs on the street corners. It is not the young women from other areas that are selling their bodies.

                      Most blacks don’t want anything to do with the above lifestyle, but your policies keep those blacks down instead of letting them grow. I asked you about the leftist position and your position regarding Charter Schools in NYC, but you didn’t respond. That is one of the best ways of helping inner-city black children, but for some reason, you don’t seem interested in seeing black children from the ghetto graduate high school with proficiency in math and English. Perhaps that goes against your leftist ideology.

                    3. Yes, “only place!” When you make up history and don’t understand it you can believe anything. Ghettoes didn’;t happen by accident. They were big cities version of municipal planning. If I thought you capable of learning anything I’d explain it to you but you can’t so I won’t.
                      When in France you should have went through their slums. Because you aren’t worthy of my recreating the wheel, here’s something that describes the situation here and there.
                      “On the opposite end of the spectrum were the conditions that immigrants to France endured whether it be in suburban Versailles or Paris itself. Orlando had some neglected areas, Paris outdid them. Voncelle learned that during World War One. France “recruited” over 200,000 Africans from its colonies to work in war industries. Recruitment usually meant conscription, meaning France took able-bodied blacks by force and made them serve either in its factories or army. The Africans were initially praised for their service and bravery, then the war ended. What happened in France, reminded Voncelle of what happened in America during the same period. Blacks from the south were recruited to work in northern factories during The Great Migration. When the war ended, America got slums and ghettoes in Detroit, Chicago, New York, and other large cities. In France, the “banlilue defavorisee” meaning disadvantaged suburbs were located mainly in the northeast section of Paris. This was where the Africans were initially allowed to settle. She remembered having heard some African Americans like Josephine Baker, Richard Wright and James Baldwin found France a haven. The idea of France as an escape from the racism in America seemed to elude her for now based on what she’d witnessed.”

                    4. Get real, Enigma. Yes, we have had a varying degree of segregation since the Civil War, but the “only place” is a bunch of hogwash. No, one can’t live in a million-dollar home on welfare no matter their color, so economics and education played a part. As early as I can remember, places discriminated heavily against blacks, Catholics and Jews, along with other minorities. However, there were a lot of places where blacks, Catholics and Jews could live.

                      You blame everything on racism, so I guess when blacks create separate organizations for blacks only, on campuses, they are racists as well. If you note, Jews and other groups tend to move where their friends and relatives moved. People have an affinity for those they are most familiar with.

                      I am not saying it was easy for blacks. It wasn’t easy for any group, especially blacks, but I, too, remember Harlem like another mentioned earlier. One didn’t worry about getting shot coming out of the Apollo Theater or coming out of one of the many restaurants. You can choose to live in the past, refuse better education for black students, support activities that cause black youth to be killed in the streets and put up with prostitution and drugs. I won’t, and I wouldn’t stand up for that no matter what color I was.

                      Don’t tell me I don’t know about the slums. I’ve lived there. One day the police came by to ask if I knew anything about the rape-murder that past evening. I remember being careful where I walked and how I walked while carrying nickles ( a poor man’s substitute for brass knuckles) in a roll in case of need.

                      You talk about what the French did to blacks. Look at Africa and see what that history can teach us. Take a look at Rwanda and a whole host of other countries. People can be racists, and blacks certainly cannot be excluded from that group. People can kill without caring, and blacks certainly cannot be excluded from that group either.

                      You have your head on backward and your heart in the wrong place. Your policies destroy the youth of all colors, races and religions. Nothing can stop you from pushing hateful ideology ahead of decency and respect.

                    5. Yes, “Only place,” I’m talking about a specific period of time surrounding the great migration, probably a new term for you. When you finish that lesson I’ll introduce you to sundown towns. Your need to dent American racism makes you deny a real history. You must be trying out to write Texas school books.

                    6. “Yes, “Only place,” I’m talking about a specific period of time surrounding the great migration, probably a new term for you. ”

                      Not a new term, Enigma, but this is a lousy excuse for the hyperbole you now recognize.

                      Can you tell me why the Irish ended up in Irish areas and the eastern European Jews ended up in their own areas? Your tunnel vision sees a speck of history, and from that speck, you interpret history for your own ends, which sound very much like the racism you describe.

                      I don’t deny racism as I am well acquainted with its use. I reject your reliance on racism to get a step ahead. I don’t care about that step. I’ll move away and let you get ahead of me, but your step ahead is pushing many black people many steps behind.

                    7. Give me an example of me trying to get ahead of you? I can give you plenty of examples, especially regarding voter suppression where people of a certain party and persuasion are trying to reduce Black voting power. Of course, the other party used to make their living by suppressing votes.
                      The better conversation to have is how did the Irish people get to be white which they weren’t always considered? They became the police forces that managed and suppressed other immigrants and became the overseers on the new urban plantations.

                    8. “Give me an example of me trying to get ahead of you?”

                      That is followed by examples that have nothing to do with either of us. You can vote, and I can vote. Voter suppression mostly doesn’t exist. Voting is not supposed to be easy, but it should be accurate and represent one vote per citizen. States determine the voting processes and what we saw in the last election was not voter suppression but a lack of voter security that is now being revealed. Fulton County was so lawless, the state has taken over the voting processes to keep it honest or at least that is what is presently intended.

                      I suggest you focus on helping those who do not have proper ID to get the correct ID needed in many Walmart stores if one wants to pay by credit card. I suggest you tell the Black Panthers to stop intimidating voters.

                      But that has nothing to do with you getting ahead of me. If I am white, whose child will be discriminated against in the hiring practices of government agencies or admission to college?

                      You are trying to avoid the discussion.

                      AS an aside, I answered your question on charter schools in NYC. I am now awaiting either more questions or an answer.

                    9. Most voter suppression has little to do with ID. It’s creating lengthy lines or causing people to travel long distances to polling locations or closing polling locations early and reducing early voting days. I don’t have a problem with voter ID except where it creates an unconstitutional poll tax.

                    10. Enigma, we have agreement on something, voter ID.

                      Take a look at the states where the most questions have been raised. Not only were the lines not preventing voting but there were boxes all over the place that were not secure. I believe they were mostly in Democrat areas. Not good.

                      We need to look at the data. Where, and how many locations are determined by localities. Do you have real data? I don’t think this should be a big problem.

            2. Enigma–

              I want to add a little about my experience in an actual ghetto. A couple who lived across the street were very nice. He was a pastor. His wife loved gardening and we shared plants and visited about that. One day, afternoon, they were away to a church function and their home was looted, likely by someone in the neighborhood who had been watching them. I was very sorry that we didn’t see it happening and call the police. They were so devastated they sold their home and moved away. My next door neighbor was elderly and very pleasant. Several times we shared part of our Thanksgiving and other larger meals with her. She collected aluminum cans for a little extra money and we always gave her our empties. The local bros stole her cans. She got a dog from the pound for company and to alert her when there were trespassers. They killed the dog and stole her cans again. From my earlier remarks you may have drawn the conclusion that I didn’t think there were any decent people in that neighborhood. There were, a number of them, but they were living in a state of siege cowering from the large number of criminals there. We couldn’t get a pizza delivered there–too dangerous. We invited a deputy to our home for a social visit and when he found out where we lived he refused to come–too dangerous. Until you recognize that the pathological behavior of a significant proportion of the black population is poisoning the chances for a decent life for the rest you cannot really begin to help any of them. Blaming the problems on white privilege or systemic racism is a diversion that helps conceal the real problem.

            1. What is it you’re trying to prove? I grew up in Minneapolis and follow the news there fairly closely. Minneapolis has not indeed defunded the police. There have been various pledges to do so to some degree but it never happened. The violence there is for a number of reasons including a reaction to police murdering citizens and various groups pursuing their agendas. What it isn’t from is defunding the police.

              1. “Minneapolis has not indeed defunded the police.”

                You are mistaken:

                “The Minneapolis City Council voted to cut $8 million from the police budget . . .

                “Meanwhile, the number of Minneapolis Police Department officers has *dropped by a third*, while violent crimes have been surging in the city.” (Emphasis added.)

                https://www.newsweek.com/year-after-george-floyds-death-minneapolis-mayor-wants-re-fund-police-1594411

                Add to that the massive numbers of police who have quit (or taken extended leave), because of the “de-fund” movement’s smear campaign.

                Who in their right mind would risk life, limb, and career under such inhuman conditions?

                  1. I can’t say for that location, but I can say for NYC. Police quit. Others took more passive roles. Money was taken from the police academy so that the quality of rookies will fall, which hurt the communities most needy of protection. NYC will have a more challenging time getting recruits and may have to resort to the bottom of the barrel, which is also bad for those most in need.

                    You can delude yourself into thinking whatever you wish, but victimhood is not the way to go.

                    1. New York and police forces across the country were already recruiting from the bottom of the barrel. Get fired from one force and just move to another.

                    2. “New York and police forces across the country were already recruiting from the bottom of the barrel. Get fired from one force and just move to another.”

                      That is not true. NYC had an excellent police force that continued to improve. I know you prefer the policing in Chicago because it increases the number of dead youth, so I am sure you like the present mayor, who has also increased the number of dead youth.

                      AS an aside, I want to clarify one question, are you in favor of NYC’s charter schools? That is a straightforward yes or no question. It is a very important question that involves the futures of many poor minority children.

                    3. I don’t know if New York is trying to fund their charter schools by taking money from the public schools? This is what Betsy De Vos was proposing despite her conflict of interest but I don’t know if that’s true in New York. My answer for the moment is, “I have no opinion.”

                    4. I’ll answer your questions on this subject to the best of my knowledge, but if you wish, I can refer you to virtually all the questions raised and the answers if you ask.

                      “don’t know if New York is trying to fund their charter schools by taking money from the public schools?”

                      Charter schools (NYC) are funded per capita at a significantly lower rate.

                      “I have no opinion.”

                      How can you have no opinion on one of the best ways to secure upward mobility to poor black youth? That is where we differ. My family faced hardships and death in recent times more than I believe has your own family. Yet, I look to the future, and you look to the past.

                    5. “I have no opinion on things I haven’t researched.”

                      Enigma, this is not a new subject on the blog. You want affirmative action but it seems you don’t want to look for those things that have proven themselves. With a good K-12 education kids don’t need points added to their admission forms. They can do it on their own. Why do I believe that blacks as a group can be well educated and productive, but you don’t? What do you know that I don’t know?

                      A discussion on charter schools that helps outline how to improve schools for everyone especially the disadvantaged. Both text and video. It isn’t that long and is very informative.

                      https://www.hoover.org/research/economist-looks-90-tom-sowell-charter-schools-and-their-enemies-1

                    6. Enigma– “New York and police forces across the country were already recruiting from the bottom of the barrel.”

                      ++++

                      Yes, affirmative action.

          3. Ah, yes, the law.

            In 1863, the year of issuance of the illegal emancipation proclamation, immigration law required citizens to be “…free white person(s)….”

            Freed slaves must have been immediately deported as illegal aliens.

            Of course, the Israelite slaves, imbued with intellect, capacity, acumen and gumption, were out of Egypt before the ink was dry on their release papers, of their own volition and for their own benefit.

            America is a society of laws. The law must prevail, the long, long arm of the law.

            I’m certain you would agree.

            1. George, I disagree with any number of things you say but your actual grasp of history is better than many of the so-called-intellectuals that visit this blog. America is a racist country, the Founders imbued racism into the Constitution, the Bill of Rights was intended among other things to preserve the institution and the Second Amendment to make sure states could keep their enslaved people in line without the federal government.
              Here’s something you may have missed from Patrick Henry while opposing the ratification of the Constitution:
              “How oppressive and dangerous must this be to the Southern States who alone have slaves? This will render their proportion infinitely greater than that of the Northern States. It has been openly avowed that this shall be the rule. . . .”
              Something he wrote about his view of slavery while accepting all the convenience and benefits.
              “Would any one believe that I am master of slaves by my own purchase? I am drawn along by the general inconvenience of living without them. I will not — I cannot justify it, however culpable my conduct.”

              Your boy Lincoln did indeed feel Blacks were the social and intellectual inferiors of whites. He didn’t care much about ending slavery and would have let it continue forever except for that little secession thing. He wanted to send the freedmen to Central America or Liberia. The Emancipation Proclamation (which only applied to those states that seceded from the Union) was meant to screw up the Southern economy and keep Britain and France from siding with the South.
              I will agree with you George that the laws are prevailing and doing much of what the Founders intended. The originalists on the Supreme Court make sure little really changes. I still challenge the message you seem to have received that having racist forefathers mean you must follow the same path. But you have most of your facts right about who they were and what they intended.

              1. Enigma– “America is a racist country”

                I dispute that, but I would like to know what country you think isn’t racist. Where would you like to live instead of here?

                1. Enigma–“the Founders imbued racism into the Constitution”

                  +++

                  What section of the Constitution is imbued with racism.

                2. I kind of liked Monaco and Switzerland when I was there but that’s a different thing than wanting to live there instead. I have too many ties here including grandchildren, children, friends, and other family to want to leave. My choosing to stay does not preclude America from being racist, it just means I’m willing to stay and try to make it better.

                  1. Enigma, tell those countries you want to immigrate to either one and take note of the reply. No.

                    I loved Monaco and Switzerland, but I wouldn’t want to live in either place.

                    As far as the numbers you are disputing with Young. There are many ways of formatting the numbers, but in the end, Young’s number is telling everyone something. If you choose not to listen then you are destroying those who you most wish to help.

                  2. Enigma–

                    I checked your article about the Constitution promoting slavery.

                    You are so anxious to find racism everywhere that you got this one completely backwards.

                    Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1 is a clause intended to limit slavery. After 20 years Congress could ban the slave trade. Why not right away? Because then there would have no Constitution and no promise to ban it in 20 years.

                    As with many compromises both parties came away with something they needed but less than they wanted. The part of the Constitution you called racist is actually a clear attempt to limit slavery within the scope of what was then possible.

                    As for Jefferson’s thoughts:

                    “In December 1806, President Thomas Jefferson’s annual message to Congress anticipated the upcoming expiration of Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1. His message said, “I congratulate you, fellow-citizens, on the approach of the period at which you may interpose your authority constitutionally to withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unoffending inhabitants of Africa, and which the morality, the reputation, and the best interests of our country have long been eager to proscribe.” Does it seem odd that a slave owner was supporting this legislation?”

                    Since you clearly do not understand this provision, or Jefferson, please read this comment by two professors, Gordon Lloyd and Jenny Martinez.

                    https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/interpretation/article-i/clauses/761

                    I am beginning to think you would find racism in a bowl of fruit. It appears to be an obsession that has clouded your entire mind just as Trump has overwhelmed the mind of Jeff–Whoopie Cushion.

                    1. The Constitution gave a twenty-year grace period to get South Carolina and others to go along. It wasn’t odd at all for a slave owner in Virginia or Maryland to support this legislation because it was a form of protectionism that increased the value of their “home-grown” slaves. By home grown I mean the product of forced breeding and rape, what some historians called “natural increase” which was the opposite of the truth. I don’t have to work nearly as hard to find racism as you do to deny it. That Article and clause made Virginia plantation owners rich at a time they were ruining their tobacco output because they didn’t follow known practices of rotation and others. Slavery became the leading export from Virginia which was only made possible by limiting the competition from the International slave trade. Charleston got screwed from being the leading port and Virginians like Jefferson and Patrick Henry got richer.

                    2. Enigma–

                      A 20-year deadline by which time slave trading could be stopped is not a pro-slavery provision by any stretch of the imagination.

                      What if that clause had been left out?

                      Then even in the remote future there would be no legal means for acting against the slave trade.

                      As I said, you love racism so much you would find it in a bowl of fruit.

                      It is profitable. That’s why essentially all of the ‘hate crimes’ we read about these days turn out to have been perpetrated by blacks.

                      The black demand for racism far exceeds the supply. It’s a scam, but a dangerous scam. Keep it up and I worry that you are seeding and fertilizing the real thing. Then you may not have to fake it.

                  3. Enigma– “My choosing to stay does not preclude America from being racist, it just means I’m willing to stay and try to make it better.”
                    **

                    Since slavery and its legacy is so bad that you are willing to stay in racist America “to make it better” I am wondering why you are still messing with an institution that ended here more than 150 years ago.

                    Slavery is still openly practiced in African and Muslim countries with actual human beings sold into slavery.

                    If the issue is truly important to you, why don’t you go there and put a stop to this atrocity instead of gnawing continuously on a dead, old dry bone?

                    I suspect it is because you can’t make money stopping real slavery existing now.

                    The white abolitionists were morally superior to you. They staked much on eliminating existing slavery rather than whining about Europeans who had been enslaved in earlier years. They were real, not phonies.

                    1. “I am wondering why you are still messing with an institution that ended here more than 150 years ago.”
                      The practice of slavery didn’t end with the Civil War, it was reconstituted as the Black Codes and after the Compromise of 1877, Jim Crow replaced that. Violating the Black Codes could get once sent back to the same plantation they were once freed from. Mass incarceration fed the leased prison labor which was exactly like slavery. It’s how cotton production increased after the end of the Civil War and the railroads expanded in the South and Midwest because of the differently named slave labor available to them.

                    2. But, Enigma, you still haven’t said why you aren’t traveling to countries that still put black folk on the auction block to sell them as slaves.

                      Don’t you care about people in actual slavery?

                      I am yet to see you criticize those places.

                      I am yet to see you take up a banner and attack real slavery in the here and now rather than sit in your comfy office chair and whine about something that is long gone in America.

                      You know who is really protesting current slavery hoping to stop it?

                      White folks.

                      Blacks in America are busy whining about garage door pulls.

                3. Out of curiousity, why do you dispute America is a racist country? Do you think your opinion is generally shared by Native Americans, Asian Americans (especially those of Japanese descent), Hispanics, Muslims, Jamaicans, Black people?

                  1. Ayan Hirisi Alli, who is one of my heroes, was interviewed on Canadian television and the smug host asked her why she lived in a racist country like the United States. In her soft but powerful way she said, “There is racism everywhere, but in America….” and she laid out the benefits. She has it right, of course. In her book, INFIDEL which I have read a couple of times and listened to on CD on long drives [she narrates it herself] she mentioned the Somali [she is Somali] racism toward the people of Kenya and, I think, mentions other racism between different African peoples. Unlike Americans she doesn’t make a big deal of it, but only mentions it in passing as if everybody knows it. She is brilliant enough to surmount it. I think she encountered racism from the Saudi people during the time her family lived in Saudi Arabia, too. Basically, if you want to find a place where there isn’t racism, good luck. I don’t think it exists.

                    Keith Richburg wrote ‘Out of America’, a great book that I recommend, in which he describes growing up in Detroit and, because it is our culture, got a racism chip on his shoulder. But he describes his father who sounds like a very wise man and who didn’t share that view. He seemed aware of racism on the part of all races [black vs Koreans was mentioned] and he wasn’t going to let it interfere with his life.

                    Then Richburg got journalism assignments in Africa at the time of the Rwanda horrors. He watched bodies flowing downriver from the murder sites [also racism by the way] and tumbling over a waterfall, and he realized this, and I must paraphrase: He was American, not African and he knows slavery is bad and all that but thank God his ancestor was brought to America or his body might be tumbling over that waterfall.

                    It’s all a matter of perspective. I think it is extremely dangerous for folks to whip up racial enmity the way the media and even the government and academia are doing. We don’t want the hatreds that bloomed in Rwanda.

                    One last thing, I wish the white liberals in this country would stop treating black people like pets who must be protected and managed and who are unable to bear hearing about facts like the murder rate. I would rather we be people to people and I will say what I think is the truth whether someone likes it or not. I won’t coddle. But I will change my mind if new facts support it.

                    Oh, by the way, as to the American Indians, I grew up around some and ultimately found that I am part American Indian, a fact of which I am pleased. They were savages, by the way, but then so were my Scots ancestors. Nobody can go up very far up his family tree without meeting some brutes.

                    1. Enigma is like Jeff, EB, Paint Chips, et al. They are not interested in dialogue never mind facts. The regulars on this blog know I am Hispanic, immigrant, and loathe Trump. My comments above with generous quotes by Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell and reference to Daniel Moynihan, are ignored by him for ample reason

                      https://jonathanturley.org/2021/10/10/minnesota-women-arrested-after-running-over-man-who-allegedly-robbed-her/comment-page-1/#comment-2128142

                      My Hispanic patients resent Black Americans for lumping us into their political cauldron. We have nothing in common with them. Absolutamente nada. Fin

                    2. Estovir says:

                      He loathes Trump. I take it then you agree with the Never Trumpers that Trump is lying about the election being stolen? And you’re willing to say so publicly even though you will be cancelled by the Trumpists here and called names?

                    3. Jessie Jackson said: ““There is nothing more painful to me … than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

                      I believe Jackson was pointing out a hard fact that your (Young’s) numbers show something important. I prefer to look at the rest of the people who are good, not bad. However, if one cannot face unpleasant facts how can one ever expect those problems to be solved.

                  2. Enigma-

                    I asked you before what you were doing about black slavery in Africa and got no response. On a guess I said the people trying to stop it are white.

                    Here’s an organization fighting slavery: https://www.freedomunited.org/about-us/

                    Notice the pictures? White and Asian. Not an Enigma in Black among them.

                    You are becoming the Jussie Smollett of commenters.

                    1. How nice of you (I started ton use a different word than nice) to tell me what I must be doing to meet your standards. To satisfy you, apparently, I must ignore the racism that existed and currently exists in this country, affecting me, my children, and grandchildren, to address what you determine should be my real concern. Guess what? I multitask. But as long as racism exists here I’m not letting it go.

                    2. “To sat isfy you, apparently, I must ignore the racism that existed and currently exists in this country, affecting me, my children, and grandchildren,”

                      I can say that as well. To satisfy your lust for retribution and forgetfulness of African crimes, am I supposed to ignore the racism against my parents, children, and grandchildren? At present, your attitudes promote extreme racism towards many white families, children and grandchildren. Let me say the same thing for Asians and other groups.

                      Do you agree Asians should face quotas to let less qualified performing children into top special schools in NYC?

                    3. “Those quotas protect white people, no they shouldn’t.”

                      That is not true in the NYC case. It is not true for Harvard.

                    4. Again you have no idea what you’re talking about. All the minorities are like crabs in a barrel, fighting for what is allocated to them. White people get almost all the legacy spots, rich white people donate a building or a wing.

                    5. “All the minorities are like crabs in a barrel, fighting for what is allocated to them. White people get almost all the legacy spots, rich white people donate a building or a wing.”

                      Asians that have superior scores are being discriminated against to permit more blacks to enter whether it be K-12 in NYC top schools like Bronx High School of Science or prestigious universities.

                      Without question the legacy students have their spots, but the rest of the spots are fought over by everyone else. In today’s world, in the most prestigious universities, it is the Asians that are being discriminated against most.

                      You don’t want victimhood competition, but the Asians don’t act like victims. They just work harder.

                      I’m waiting for you to either read or listen to the video on charter schools that I posted earlier so I can listen to what you have to say.

                    6. There you go again, demanding that I answer to you about the subject you changed to. I don’t care enough about the charter schools in New York to research them. Probably because I do a lot of research on the topics I do care about. I can’t rationally discuss American history with you because you don’t have a functional knowledge of it. Your approach is facts be damned, I’ll just make something up that sounds good to me. I have offended you by saying I don’t have an opinion about something you brought up, that doesn’t affect me, and which I know little. Demand all you like but I’m good dealing in a factual world.

                    7. “There you go again, demanding that I answer to you about the subject you changed to. I don’t care enough about the charter schools in New York to research them. Probably because I do a lot of research on the topics I do care about.”

                      Enigma, once again, you believe I am demanding you answer something when there is no demand, just a question. On the other hand, you demand that your grievances are settled, and your victimhood be reimbursed from people who had nothing to do with black slavery.

                      You look in a backward direction, so you insulate yourself from all those things that prove your direction wrong. I am open to anything to solve the problems of those in need. I am willing to help foot the bill, not to satisfy your grievances of the past, but to satisfy the needs of those youth that will be alive when both of us are gone. I don’t need these things for my kids. I paid for their private schools, colleges and graduate schools. I think the least, one so interested in grievances such as yours, can do, is to be aware of life-changing events for the newest generation.

                      I am stunned that you care so little for that generation where you can help do so much. You are hung up on too many grievances that no longer exist exclusively to black people. You are fully entitled to moan and groan about the history and almost non-existent grievances rather than solve problems. But that is what one of your grievances is. You complain others didn’t act to stop racism. However, here you are doing nothing pre-emptive, and the pain is being suffered by many. However, here you are holding others in contempt for doing the same thing you are doing today.

                      We need doers, not talkers.

                    8. Enigma: “But as long as racism exists here I’m not letting it go.

                      +××

                      Look at your posts. You are likely the most racist person commenting here. Everything is filtered through black grievance for you. You perpetuate racism.

                      By the way, you could stay here and still do something against slavery in Africa. But you don’t. You haven’t even condemned it. Cat got your tongue?

                    9. Enigma: “Again you have no idea what you’re talking about. All the minorities are like crabs in a barrel, fighting for what is allocated to them. White people get almost all the legacy spots, rich white people donate a building or a wing.”

                      +++

                      I am surprised your bitterness and ignorance isn’t damaging your health. Give it up and enjoy life and your fellow citizens.

                  3. Enigma–

                    Here’s a question you might be able to answer. I asked ATS and he scuppered.

                    Has any black African population independently invented writing, mathematics and civilization (cities) with monumental buildings. Europeans have done it, Asians have done it and American Indians have done it–multiple times.

                    When I checked I couldn’t find any black African culture that had reached that level.

                    I don’t assume none did, but I would like to know. This is your subject so you would know if anyone here does..

                    1. I’m excellent on American History (which includes African American History). Off the top of my head I thought of Egypt and the Pyramids. I had to look and see that Africa had developed most of the oldest written languages, predating Europe and Asia going back to 3,000 BC. People still haven’t figured out how the Pyramids were constructed. The oldest mathematical games originated in Africa. Cities like Carthage and Alexandria still exist, some were lost to colonization and wars but Africa has dozens of cities predating European ones. I’ll take your question as one of interest as opposed to assuming any assumptions on your part. While there are stupid questions, the answers can be quite informative.
                      https://blog.mindresearch.org/blog/math-facts-ancient-africa
                      https://www.africaontheblog.org/african-holds-worlds-ancient-written-languages/#:~:text=Nsibidi%20and%20most%20other%20written,It%20dates%20from%20about%205000BC.

                    2. I didn’t “scupper.” I probably told you to look it up for yourself, and I may even have said that if you told me what search terms you’d used, I’d help you get better at looking up information for yourself.

                      What search terms did you use?

                  4. Enigma-

                    Thanks for responding to my query whether black Africa ever independently developed civilization, writing and mathematics and monumental buildings the way Europeans, Asians and American Indians did.

                    You are the first to give me useful information that I did not know before. This article that you linked helps: https://www.africaontheblog.org/african-holds-worlds-ancient-written-languages/#:~:text=Nsibidi%20and%20most%20other%20written,It%20dates%20from%20about%205000BC

                    The Old Nubian page shown in the article is not helpful for the argument for several reasons: it is too new, it is obviously inspired by Greek/Phoenician alphabets, and Nubian culture is mostly an adaptation of adjacent Egyptian culture.

                    However, the information on Nsibidi is great. It does appear to be an authentic and independent step toward a system of writing, although it seems to be a form of proto-writing, not yet developed toward the real thing as cuneiform, the Egyptian forms, the Asian writing, and the Phoenician/Greek/Latin alphabets were. You couldn’t write The Epic of Gilgamesh in it, for example. Your other link to minddreams is pretty much pipe dreams trying to see things that aren’t there.

                    Basically, nothing in your links indicates that any true civilization emerged in that part of Africa. By that I mean civilization in the formal sense that one sees in Uruk and Teotihuacan, and throughout the Middle East, Europe and Asia. It just didn’t happen apparently. That is not to say that there were not some large and well organized communities. However, it is worth looking at Old Europe and the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture. It was very sophisticated and some of their centers had larger populations than the emerging civilizations of Sumer at about the same time, but even they are not thought to have risen to the level of ‘civilization’ as it is seen in the cultures I have mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni%E2%80%93Trypillia_culture

                    I think you are off track with this remark:

                    “Cities like Carthage and Alexandria still exist, some were lost to colonization and wars but Africa has dozens of cities predating European ones.”

                    Carthage does not still exist. It is in ruins. However, Carthage [I think the name means ‘new city’] was a city created when Phoenician settlers colonized the site and dominated the local Libyan people. I suspect the Libyans were related to the Berbers who also were not black.

                    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=berbers Interestingly, St. Augustine was a Berber.

                    Alexandria was, of course, a Greek city founded by Alexander. The Ptolemaic pharaohs didn’t even speak Egyptian until Cleopatra who was herself Greek. Her name is Macedonian Greek and Greek was her native language but, unlike her predecessors, she learned Egyptian…it only took about 300 years for the Ptolemy line to learn Egyptian.

                    Neither Carthage nor Alexandria owed anything to black Africa.

                    There was an argument some while back that the Egyptians were black. No, they weren’t. DNA analysis on ancient mummies has shown that the Egyptians were essentially the same Caucasoid people who still live in Lebanon and Israel. In fact, ancient Egyptians had less black genes than do modern Egyptians, due most likely to the slave trade from the south.

                    The site you gave leading to the discussion of Nsibidi was very interesting. However, it still appears that black Africa did not create true civilization with fully capable writing systems, mathematics, cities and monumental architecture. If you have any information to the contrary, archaeological or ethnographic I would like to see it. It is still an open question for me but the preponderance for the moment leans to no civilization in black Africa.

                    1. You are welcome to do your own research. I see you’ve moved the bar to what you classify as “Black Africa” so I guess only parts of the continent count? This isn’t a question I needed answered. Go for it.

                    2. Enigma–

                      I didn’t move the bar. Noth Africa, including Egypt, are Caucasoid and ethnically very different from sub-Saharan black Africa.

                      Any ‘African-American’ who points to Egypt or Carthage as his heritage and ancestors’ accomplishments is nearly as far off the mark as if he pointed to London or Teotihuacan for the same purpose.

                      The interesting and unanswered question is whether the black people of sub-Saharan Africa were able to do what nearly everyone else has done and independently invent writing, mathematics and civilization. It doesn’t look like. You understood the question and apparently don’t have an answer beyond the link I mentioned.

                    3. Enigma– Here is the original question:

                      “Has any black African population independently invented writing, mathematics and civilization”

                      No bar was moved.

                      We were always talking about the black people of the south and not the Caucasoid peoples who built civilizations in north Africa.

                      You don’t have an answer and chose to pretend I asked a different question. I didn’t. You can see the original question for yourself.

                      But just now it doesn’t appear that they did much in the way of progress and nothing in the way of civilization.

                      Being on the same continent doesn’t mean you can claim and take credit for other people’s great accomplishments.

              2. Enigma– “the Bill of Rights was intended among other things to preserve the institution and the Second Amendment to make sure states could keep their enslaved people in line without the federal government.”

                ***

                Much of our Constitution is drawn from the experience of English law. The English Bill of Rights of 1689 [which likely inspired our Bill of Rights to a degree] also has a right to bear arms for Protestants. Race had nothing to do with it.

              3. “America is a racist country . . .”

                When you’re a hammer, everything is a nail.

                And when you’re a racist, everything is about race.

                    1. While you have the luxury of believing America isn’t racist because you are a beneficiary of the racism. I didn’t see what Estovir wrote because he didn’t directly respond to me. I don’t go scrolling through all the comments because it isn’t a good use of my time.

                    2. “. . . because you are a beneficiary of the racism.”

                      There’s the vicious con game of all racists: Use race to excuse some people’s failures. And use race to undercut an individual’s achievements.

                    3. Enigma– “While you have the luxury of believing America isn’t racist because you are a beneficiary of the racism.”

                      +++

                      Every country has racists but that doesn’t make every country racist.

                      As for my ‘benefiting’ from American racism I did notice that I never received preferential treatment trying to get into university as blacks do. I can’t qualify for special minority loans generally available for blacks. I can’t qualify for special state and federal contracts set aside for blacks. I can’t get special treatment when seeking a job. Basically, never do I benefit by having lack of qualifications set aside because of my skin color.

                      The country has become racist to the extent that blacks benefit by skin color in ways that no other people can.

                      Stop whining.

                      You never had it so good. Even black people in black ruled countries don’t get showered with benefits like these.

          4. Yes, the police respond disproportionately to non-violent crimes committed by people of non-black color. Diversity [dogma], inequity, and exclusion.

        2. Planned Population works similar to Planned Parent/hood to reduce social and fiscal “burdens” and normalize social progress.

  9. Another interesting example of when not speaking to the police would be helpful to your defense.

  10. These posts prove some folks have no grasp at all of what they speak.

    I not comfy arguing points of law with Professor Turley……and limit myself to asking a question of him now and then.

    Law is a complicated domain with much to be considered before any Opinion should be offered.

    Even Lawyers, Prosecutors, Judges, and Juries get it wrong….as do Appeals Courts and even the Supreme Court.

    Thus I surely am not willing to accept our Keyboard Legal Experts who hold forth on matters here as so many do.

    1. So in others words, why should anyone bother wasting their time voicing opinions on a public forum? Sounds very Biden-esq

  11. I wish I could be on Hill’s jury. She deserves a slap on the wrist. Literally. Just a slap on the wrist.

  12. I don’t see why Grayson was not charged. He was pursuing the man with a bat, right? He was acting in concert with Hill, the driver. It seems to me that the death was the product of their action even if Hill’s action alone produced it. (I admit I’m no lawyer.)

  13. Chasing a person that robbed you and running them down is bad message sending

    Police shooting an unarmed protestor not threatening a soul is “good” message sending

    Regardless of what the law says, the government gets to exempt itself

  14. You misrepresented the Zimmerman case. Stand your ground was never raised by the defense, although you would never know that from the media coverage. It was simply a self defense case.

    1. Yes, Old Lawyer. Stand Your Ground was not used

      Like the insanity defense, SYG is legal pleading. I would like explained how an acquittal under SYG differs from the straight defense.

      1. Iowan2 “would like explained how an acquittal under SYG differs from the straight defense.”
        +++
        I might help but wouldn’t mind amendments by Mesbo. Normally in an encounter that might become lethal you have a duty to retreat rather than fight. The duty to retreat does not usually extend to your own home. You can defend there. Stand Your Ground allows you to return violence even if you are not in your home under appropriate circumstances. Simple defense applies when you are attacked and can’t get sway. You have to defend. Zimmerman was pinned to the .ground and backing off was not an option. His acts were ordinary self defense and justified.

        Attorney Andrew Branca is an expert and has written about it. You might want to get one of his books for better information than I can provide. The way things are going everyone may have to learn the rules for shooting when you go anywhere. Civility is vanishing.

    2. Reading Compression 101: Actual READ before commenting.

      ” There are also laws like “Stand Your Ground” discussed in such well-known cases as the trial of George Zimmerman (though it was ultimately not used in favor of a conventional self-defense claim).”

    3. True. Zimmerman was pinned on the ground by a violent person who participated in fight clubs, some of the fights were shown in his phone. Trayvon was a thug who was slamming Zimmerman mma style while Zimmerman screamed for help. At trial a nurse who was a prosecution witness said if Zimmerman hadn’t stopped what was causing his head injuries he could have died. Zimmerman’s life was in grave danger and he had nowhere to retreat. Pure self defense. The media with the help of a corrupt Obama government acted horribly. They didn’t do the country any good either because their lies helped whip up racial hatred, which we don’t need.

  15. You leave out the most famous “Make My Day” case in American history: Bernie Goetz, the infamous subway vigilante. On the facts, he was clearly guilty but the jury, composed of fed up New Yorkers, gave a thumbs up to Goetz’s brand of street justice, and only convicted hm of possesson of a gun.

  16. Defund the police and people have to “handle” matters.

    Article suggests that they were sleeping in their car. If homeless, does the car qualify as the home.

    What BLM and Lefties don’t acknowledge is that without police, the level of “normal” crime will rise.

    Americans don’t like being victims.

      1. Back in the “Wild West” it was fairly common to lynch horse thieves, cattle rustlers, murderers, rapists and arsonists. There were no local judges, only those who came through occasionally as they traveled throughout the “circuit.” Punishment was thus immediate and decisive. There was no outcry about it because everyone was aware of the rules and the consequences. In the “Wild South” those same circumstances applied, but it somehow got distorted to the belief that if the criminal were black, he had done nothing wrong and was lynched solely because someone didn’t like his skin color. Of course, poor white criminals were lynched in the South, but nobody questions it and assumes they must have been guilty of a serious crime. In the narrative we’re supposed to believe, a black was simply walking down the street, minding his own business, and a posse was formed to lynch him for no reason.

    1. Whether or not they were living in the car at the time, if as they stated they were tired of being robbed, they should have had the foresight not to leave their stuff on the unoccupied front seat…

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