Below is my column in the Daily Beast on the fourth indictment of former President Donald Trump by Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis. While I have said that this indictment presents a serious threat to Trump, I am still troubled by the implications of the indictment for free speech and future election challenges.
Here is the column:
Welcome to the Jackson Pollock school of prosecution. The 98-page indictment from Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is the legal version of Pollock’s style of throwing paint splatters on canvas as artistic expression. It basically makes every telephone call, tweet, and meeting a separate conspiratorial act.
There are 161 separate acts. Not surprisingly, everyone then becomes part of the conspiracy. The indictment covers 19 people, including Trevian Kutti (the former publicist for R. Kelly and Kanye West). Willis wants them all thrown into a single trial and let the jury figure it out.
But for all the disparate acts that Willis says constitute a criminal conspiracy, part of this emerging picture should worry Trump.
Pollock once advised confused observers that they needed to stop looking for objective meaning. The same may be true with the fourth Trump indictment. Willis simply treats every statement as a knowing falsehood and conspiratorial effort.
The indictment, to many, reads like the type of unabashedly biased spin that’s typically seen on cable television shows.
For example, the indictment relies on calls like the controversial one Trump had with Georgia officials—a call long cited as indisputable evidence of an effort at voting fraud. In the call, Trump pushed his demand for a statewide recount. Trump had lost the state by less than 12,000 votes. When officials insisted that there was little likelihood that such a recount would make a difference, he stated, “I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.”
The call is still cited as one of those 161 individual steps toward the criminal conspiracy. Even though the indictment effectively repackages the same claims as the federal prosecution, Willis insists that Trump should be effectively tried twice under these allegations.
It is easy to dismiss such a Pollock prosecution as political gamesmanship. The timing alone in bringing the case (which should have been brought two years ago) is enough for many to discount this prosecution. However, it does represent a serious threat to Trump. It has “legs” as an indictment that is not likely to be dismissed in its entirety before trial.
IT’S GOT LEGS
There are three reasons why this indictment could be the most perilous for Trump, as opposed to the Jan. 6 indictments, which present serious threshold constitutional questions.
First, the racketeering cases tend to be iron-plated before trial because challenges concern the interpretation of facts, which are traditionally questions left to the finder of fact (in this case a jury).
Willis is likely to argue successfully that she should be allowed to prove the case. In the course of that prosecution, Willis probably hopes that one or two of the 18 other defendants will flip and turn state’s evidence.
Second, in D.C., special counsel Smith is essentially trying to create new law, or at least stretch existing case law to the point of breaking down. Conversely, elections are left largely to the states, and state prosecutors routinely bring election-based prosecutions.
Willis may be stretching the evidence, but she is not stretching the law. Racketeering laws are routinely used far afield from their origins in combating criminal gangs.
Finally, as a state action, this is not a prosecution that can be ended prematurely with a presidential pardon. If Trump is elected, he could grant himself a self-pardon, even a preemptive pardon before trial. Various GOP presidential candidates have indicated that they will also consider a pardon. That could put an end to the Smith prosecutions before any trial if the special counsel cannot try the case before the election.
There is no federal pardon option for Georgia. Indeed, it is even hard to secure a state pardon, which is not issued by the governor but a pardon board.
None of this means that the indictment is justified. While the indictment contains a litany of calls and meetings, there is no clear evidence that Trump did not believe that the results of the election could be flipped through these challenges. The concern is that the indictment criminalizes challenges to elections.
In covering decades of presidential elections for CBS, NBC, BBC, and Fox, every election has produced challenges, including many with little support. This coverage included multiple challenges by Democratic lawmakers to the certification of Republican presidents in Congress.
It has also included challenges to voting machines.
For example, Marc Elias, who served as Hillary Clinton’s campaign general counsel and played a role in the funding of the infamous Steele dossier on Russian collusion, has challenged past elections on such grounds. After the 2020 election, he challenged one New York election by claiming that “there is reason to believe that voting tabulation machines misread hundreds if not thousands of valid votes as undervotes, and that these tabulation machine errors disproportionately affected [the Democrat].”
That was no crime. Elias had every right to seek judicial review even though the claim was quickly rejected as unfounded.
Many of us disagreed with Trump after the election and publicly rejected the claims of systemic voting fraud. However, Trump had a right to not only challenge the election but to be wrong.
That is why the Willis indictment is a serious threat to Trump but also to our system of democratic process. Pollock once said that “when I am in my painting, I’m not aware of what I’m doing.” Unlike painters, prosecutors do not have the same luxury. What Willis is doing here is excessive and it is dangerous.
Thanks to the Democrat party, the number of working-class Americans who support Trump is increasing every day. For the last two and a half years, Democrat leaders have made it dramatically harder to make ends meet, made it unsafe to walk down the street, spied on law-abiding people, censored free speech, encouraged school kids to get their body parts cut off by Godless doctors, spent taxpayer dollars like a drunken sailor, and got us involved in a damn war. Now these Democrat leaders are turning Donald Trump, the only politician who truly cares about regular people, into a larger-than-life example of the injustice that permeates America. Go Trump.
Trump doesn’t care about anyone except himself.
During his first term in the White House, in the face of attacks from the left and his own party, Donald Trump achieved gasoline prices under $2 a gallon, record low unemployment, inflation under 2%, rising real wages for working-class Americans, a dramatic reduction in illegal immigration, the end of NAFTA, better trade agreements with Mexico and Canada, higher tariffs on products from Communist China, lower taxes on American corporations and small businesses, less government regulation of American manufacturing and energy production, withdrawal from the Paris Climate Accords, American energy independence, a significant increase in American military spending, a significant increase in military spending by the other NATO allies, the creation of the United States Space Force, no new wars, reduced missile testing by North Korea, cancellation of the Obama nuclear weapons agreement with Iran, recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, the brokering of historic trade agreements between Israel and its Arab neighbors, restoration of quality medical care for veterans at the VA, elimination of the Obamacare mandate to buy health insurance, the right of terminally ill patients to try experimental treatment, the appointment of more than 230 federal judges who believe in following the Constitution, the appointment of three Supreme Court justices who believe in following the Constitution, and a welcoming environment in the Republican Party for good and decent Americans of all races and classes. Seventeen months after Trump left office, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade with a 6-3 vote. Thirty months after Trump left office, the Supreme Court overturned race-based college admissions with a 6-3 vote. Go Trump.
Good list. But on the negative side he increased the government deficit, sent lethal arms to Ukraine for the first time (reversing a sensible Obama policy that had European support) and introduced unprecedented lockdowns and compensating massive spending financed by money printing in response to a respiratory virus of limited lethality mainly targeting the very old and very sick.
Congress has the power to tax and spend.
Trump had no concerns about government deficits. And Republicans controlled both the House and Senate in his first two years.
Then blame them.
You don’t think a President has any responsibility for what his party in control of both houses of Congress passes into law and he signs?
I think the last time we had a balanced budget is because the goddamn Congress had the fortitude to do it. Do you think Clinton was a fiscal conservative?
Good luck finding a deficit hawk, period, yet alone one will stand up aggressively against military aggression by Communist China, unfair trade by practices by Communist China and Europe, illegal immigration, the importation of dangerous and illegal narcotics, the transgender movement, government policies based on race, the imprisonment of people who disagree with the government, government spying on conservatives, government spying on Christians, bribery at the highest levels or our government, and endless overseas wars.
Those ‘lethal arms’ were anti-tank DEFENSIVE weapons, not offensive weapons. But Joe is giving them fighter jets, training their pilots, giving cluster bombs, drones, and depleting our own arsenal of artillery rounds AND small arms ammunition. And probably not for Ukraine’s benefit but so our military will have nothing with which to fight back a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Folks, we are halfway down the Commie hellhole leading to a tyrannical, one-party Democrat authoritarian rule and some of you can’t even see it. Ad for Fani Willis, she shut her mouth quickly when reporters asked if she’d been in touch with Jack Smith. I’ll bet she’s also been in touch wit Bragg, James, Hillary, and Obama; the conspiracy and collusion run deep with this lot. THAT’S what should be investigated.
Trump mishandled the COVID response, both fiscally and fiscally. He should have appointed a large team of advisors with varying points of views, with all views publicly reported on a regular basis, and without an agreed-upon recommendation coming from the group.
Amazingly, Democrat leaders thought Trump’s reliance on Fauci was an awesome idea, that Trump’s recommended shutdowns hadn’t gone far enough or long enough, that Trump’s massive deficit spending hadn’t gone far enough of long enough, and that long-term vaccine and mask mandates were smart public policy.
Yes, I’m sure they listened to his every word on the covid matter.
Trump “introduced unprecedented lockdowns . . .”
He did no such thing.
Those lockdown and shutdown diktats were decreed by various governors and local bureaucrats.
Don’t forget the First Step Act.
Trump inherited a booming economy that he proceeded to destroy with his incompetence–he didn’t “achieve” gas under $2 per gallon. Biden is the one who created “record low unemployment”. Biden inherited inflation at over 8% due to Trump’s incompetence. He brought that down by 5%. The tariffs Trump unilaterally imposed when he couldn’t bully other countries help create and fuel the inflation Biden has successfully reversed with the Inflation Reduction Act. Cancellation of the nuclear weapons agreement with Iran means that we can no longer monitor what they do–expert strategists say this was a major strategic mistake. It is Biden who achieved improved care at VA hospitals, as well as insulin capped at $35 /month and lower prescription drug prices. The Inflation Reduction Act is stimulating the private sector to return manufacturing to the US. The judges appointed by Trump–none of whom he knew or knew anything about–have resulted in Americans holding a record low opinion of our justice system due to their radical right wing agenda that most Americans oppose–especially the disasters he apponted to the SCOTUS, who overturned Roe v. Wade–no prior Supreme Court ever reversed a prior ruling finding a Constitutional right–and the rights to contraception, same-sex marriage and privacy of adults engaging in consensual sexual conduct are at risk now. The “Abraham Accords” are literally nothing other than a publicity stunt–Israel and UAE and Bahrain were already trading. Trump’s sole legislative achievement was a tax reduction bill tha mostly benefitted the very wealthiest individuals and corporations, and which resulted in the highest national debt in history.
I was better off under the pre-COVID Trump admin then I have been under the Biden admin.
The NAACP wants a state emergency for Oakland CA as crime has run rampant, hitting the East Oakland black community the hardest.
The soft on crime, Soros backed DA, Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price is facing recall due to her, again, soft on crime stance.
San Fran is losing businesses due to soft on crime city council.
Portland is also seeing businesses and people leaving due to the same soft on crime issues.
Everyone that Biden claimed he was gonna help, was better off then. Everyone whom he and AOC claimed would pay, is better off now.
Biden sent $200M to the Ukraine the same day he sent to the wildfire victims of the Hawaiian island Maui one time payment of $700 for housing assistance, i.e. hotel room.
That comes out to $1.8M to Americans.
The difference is stark: MAGA or America last.
Workers at Nancy Pelosi Federal Building in San Francisco told to work from home due to crime
“The memo was issued the same day the White House urged Cabinet members to “aggressively” urge staffers to return to in-person work.”
https://justthenews.com/nation/crime/workers-nancy-pelosi-federal-building-san-francisco-told-work-home-due-crime
This is reflective of the dysfunction of the Biden admin and Democrat party.
And after facing harsh criticism, Biden will go to Hawaii to visit the wildfire damaged town.
Note, he has yet to visit East Palestine OH.
Examples please or shut the hell up.
Mountain, there is a shift going on in this country. The dims are now the big money party. They have become the party of global elitist. They are the party of David.
Actually polls show Hispanics and Blacks leaving the Democrat party as Hispanics (who tend to be more on the religious side) and Blacks do not support the insanity of wokesim that has gripped the Democrat party.
They may not be Trump supporters per say but they are definitely not woke supporters.
I have a good friend who works at a Union company and many of those union members are not voting Democrat. He says even the union bosses are awfully quiet.
A more detailed discussion of the indictment: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-fulton-county-indictment-an-initial-examination
Law fare is funny, great comedy dressed up as earnest progressive “analysis”. The best part, some people take it seriously.
Your ad hom falls flat.
Lawfare is the combination of law +warfare.= lawfare
It was created to use the law to attack political rivals.
Its success in not measured by wins , but by the crippling process delivered to their political enemies.
Do you have anything to say about their analysis?
I am waiting for the indictment for Trump illegally removing the mattress tag from his bed. That would be the cherry on top.
I did read that he was under investigation for the sinking of the Titanic.
I remember the good old days when borders were secure, elderly people weren’t assaulted, food prices were low, no inflation to speak of, and we had a president who cared about this country. That all ended two years ago.
Disagree with your last sentence. I would say it ended in January 2009 with a four-year pause from January 2017 to January 2021. I remember the good old days when we had leaders we could be proud of. That ended in January 1993 and has been going downhill since. Jimmy Carter was a disastrous president, but I don’t believe anyone doubted his good intentions or love of country. Can’t say the same now the current president and his Dem predecessor.
All of you trump supporters that keep talking about all the evidence about voting fraud, and then never show the evidence, need to do a reality check. Just because you believe something does not make it true. I’d hate to go to a dinner party you host where you tell everyone about the great feast you will provide them, then show up and find out that you believed you had a great feast, but just forgot to actually make any food.
Show the evidence?
Arizona Maricopa County did a recount. They found Biden won by more than originally thought. Republicans did the recount. They did not find any rice paper, they did not find any bamboo paper, they did not find any widespread fraud. Dominion Voting was paid a pretty good sum of money by Fox News. Why did that happen? Was Fox News conceding that what they reported was not true? Of course not, they just paid nearly a billion dollars because they are a philanthropic organization.
Stop, take a breath, show the evidence.
This is just BS. The cases against trump having nothing to do with words. It has everything to do with actions. Anyone and everyone can talk all they want about stolen elections. But when you take action to stay in power when the results are in, that is a crime. What other president did what trump has done to stay in power. Hillary can whine all she wants, the moment she tries to get people to take action to put her in office illegitimately, that is a crime.
It’s ALWAYS different when Democrats do it.
I get it. The official messaging of the liars, spinners, twisters and professional mischaracterizers in the Democrat aligned media who tell you what to think have decided Trump’s “actions” differentiate him from all the Democrats who have questioned elections and delegitimized Republican presidential victories over the past 30 years.
If you think Democrats were not “acting” to try to “find” votes for Stacy Abrams in GA, and John Kerry in OH, Gore in FL, then you are more naive (or dumber) than we all imagined.
Once again, proof? There was fraud in 2020, but we don’t have proof. You show a bunch of Demos whining about the election. Trump whined and asked for action to subvert the election.
Demos are dweebs just like Repos. This case against trump is not about talk, it is about action.
Quit talking about fraud in 2020 election and show some evidence. You’ve had 3 years.
AS Derschowitz noted, by the arguments of the GA and DC indictments – his efforts to challenge the 2000 Election in FL would be criminal.
There is ONE real breach of ethics morality and law – and that is the weaponization of politics.
That is far more dangerous than any fears of those on the left.
I would further note it is just one more example that the left today is completely disconnected from reality – and how dangerous that is.
While there is significant evidence that we have passed “peak woke” – and the rising desparation of the of the left is a symptom of that. The FACT is that on issue after issue those on the left have been FLAT OUT WRONG.
The Colusion Delusion was HOAX sold by Hillary Clinton.
Covid was Paid for by US government research funds,
Developed in a biolab in China,
Masks did not work
Lockdowns did not work.
Keeping kids out of school was stupid.
The Vaccine did not work
Nothing that we tried – no matter how well or ill intentioned worked.
The 2020 election was inarguably rigged. Albeit the PROVEN beyond any doubt rigging was not the forms alleged in 2020.
Of course the election was conducted lawlessly and without transparency or inquiry so it remains entirely possible that many of the allegations of ballot fraud – as opposed to unconstitutional censorship are true.
The Biden’s are inarguably deeply corrupt.
Further significant portions of the US federal govenrment have been excercising power in politically weaponized and unconstitutional ways while this is emerging as a right left divide it is more significant than that. You do not have the democracy that those on the left claim to worship with the federal bureacracy determines US policies and influences US elections based on their self interest.
The modern lefts religious defereance to so called experts is not merely stupid – laws of nature and human nature assure that those experts will be wrong more often than right, but it also is totally at odds with those democratic principles the left claims, as well as self government and the social contract. And the rule of law.
Bill
Hey sea lion, the links to evidence have been provided many times on these pages. Do a f-ing google search, ya lazy a$$. Then come back and tell us how its all been debunked. Thats the nature of your game. So transparent and predictable. I dont know what the truth is about some of the issues of fraud, but i do know that you dont either.
You know you’ve won when your opponent loses their cool and results to insults, rather than facts.
Dude, you’re embarrassing.
Awww, poor Bill, you were insulted by my post???
Here are the facts. You asked me to provide that which you could easily find for yourself, in an effort to sideswipe the discussion. Thats sea-lioning.
You appear to be unwilling to look for yourself. Thats either lazy or diseingenuous and obstinate. I may have jumped the gun on lazy. My apologies.
The idea that you believe there is a winner or loser here is what is hilarious. Play on!!
“Dude, you’re embarrassing me”
Fixed that for ya
Using covid-19 to usurp voting rules, regulations and legal duties.
States ignoring their own obligations to elections.
Using covid-19 to ignore state constitutions.
Using drop boxes.
Using Mules.
Violating absentee ballot laws.
The govt intervening in social media to kill the Hunter Biden laptop story. 15% swing in votes.
More election interference.
Arizona Maricopa County did a recount.
The problem is not the count.
The problem is violations of laws governing the election process.
Signature verification,chain of evidence, spoiled ballots (no signature) mixed in with legal ballots that are impossible then to eliminate.
All of this was taken to court, but judges used procedural slight of hand to avoid the evidence being heard in open court. Because the evidence would demand the election could not be certified by the State.
Michigan and Wisconsin have both issued reports, long after the fact, documenting 100’s of thousands of votes that were not properly handled.
Bob you are so ignorant of the subject, you are wholly qualified leftist to spew your ignorance on the internet.
‘That was no crime. Elias had every right to seek judicial review even though the claim was quickly rejected as unfounded.”
This is what I don’t get with Turley………he is obtuse or is it intentional to quote a famous line.
Elias did complain (rightfully or wrongly) and could have even taken it to court (not sure if he did). But that’s where it ends. He did not manipulate people behind the scenes to get the NY vote changed in his favor.. If he did, he’d be prosecuted just like Trump. Those are facts.
Elias can complain and stomp his fee to this day on 5th Avenue if he wishes!!!! That’s not the issue w/ Trump. Wake up already.
Almost all of the cases were tossed with “lack of standing”, but not everyone. I accept that Trump lost. There were suspicious actions and millions of Zuck bucks spent in major cities where several states were determined such as Wisconsin, Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Arizona. Personally, while not idiot proof, I would like to return to a single days voting with paper ballots and everyone shows citizenship ID. If India with 1.4 billion people people can do it, and every country in the EU can do it then so can we. Might not change the election results but at least I would feel I had my say. I also do not understand why states guard the results and processes after an election instead of being totally open. That would eliminate many questions, and concerns. Paper ballots are not perfect but it would be within the purview of congress to stipulate to the states how federal elections should be conducted. That might start the ball rolling. It might also be possible to state “standing” and how it is applied in a challenge.
The Supreme Court might have to be the ultimate arbiter of the Georgia charges. Fulton County is not and never has been the ultimate paragon of legal virtue whether it was majority white or majority black.
GEB,
Well said.
I had a similar thought concerning India, same day voting and having the results in a day.
Something like that with voter ID would really restore integrity to our elections.
Voting machines, should not have a network card, a wi-fi card or any means of being linked to the internet. There should also be some kind of checksums to ensure integrity, logs and audits of those logs should be mandatory and transparent.
I agree, GEB. Not happy with Trump’s blundering and not happy with Bob and Wally and Bug and their highly selective and variable versions of free speech. Reading some of these comments, I feel like I woke up in a madhouse.
Whatever Trump’s pretensions about power, he is self limiting. The Democrats, with their ruthless and hypocritical lock on corporate media, academia, and the Federal bureaucracy are by far the biggest threats to democracy we’ve had in my lifetime.
It seems swing voters are oblivious to this fact, and why should anybody be surprised by that?
I’m too old to cry and too young to laugh. Very sad this morning about all this 😞
Diogenes, true that. Totally agree.
I wish us both luck in the coming years, Mary. We’ll need it.
“I agree, GEB. Not happy with Trump’s blundering…
Diogenes, in Prague, with all the one-way streets, tram tracks, and everything else, I spent an hour attempting to return my rental car and failed even though I got close numerous times.
I called the company and had them get someone to help me bring it back though I could see the drop-off location in the distance from a hill.
They told me it was an easy trip, and my fault I could not return the car. In essence, they accused me of bumbling. When the guy got there to help me, he took me onto the motorway, out, and back to the center. Then we crossed around town, across tram tracks, and finally resorted to going the wrong way on one-way streets. That is how we got there. As an observer, I could see that all the signs were one way going away from the center.
Did I bungle in bringing the car back? Perhaps. Maybe there was a better way unknown to everyone but those with specific knowledge.
Of course, Trump made mistakes like everyone else, but one has to take a broader look. How is Biden doing? Don’t answer. He is a catastrophe. Was Obama much better?
Look at economics, regulation, and world peace. Did Trump do better or worse than Obama, Bush, and Clinton? Did you use the word bungle when talking about those presidents? How about McCain and Romney?
You are one of the most intelligent on this blog and certainly well-versed in the English language, but bungle has certain connotations that don’t fit Trump and his circumstances.
Trump faced one-ways every step he made while trams were rushing by closing him in. There is a point where potential leaders are not discovered due to circumstances that no one can control.
I do not remember a better president in recent times who was fit to fight the revolution many do not see, except for Reagan, who was also called a bungler and unintelligent.
Whether one supports Trump or not is not the question at hand. The real question is whether one supports the leftist revolution presently, in a figurative sense, led by Biden. That is the only important question. Taking the baton of the media and calling Trump a bungler, IMO is not the way to secure a better future.
I do not remember a better president in recent times who was fit to fight the revolution many do not see, except for Reagan, who was also called a bungler and unintelligent.
SM, I would take that one step further and suggest no American president has had to fight what Trump has been up against. It’s often said that Trump broke the Democratic party. I believe what he broke was the façade of the United States as a constitutional republic. While we have buildings and government institutions that fit the description of one, what Trump has exposed is that many people within them are actually wolves in sheep’s clothing. I doubt even Trump understood how deep the treachery was going to be. He certainly does now. And they know he has a plan cull the wolves out of the government. If Trump was merely a bungler, or a bumbler, these wolves wouldn’t need to go to such great lengths to destroy him.
Gentlemen, I fear I have left the wrong impression. I hate the Deep-State hydra and would prefer Trump to any of them. I also am grateful to Trump for the many good things he did as POTUS. My unhappiness with Trump stems from his failure to secure the swing vote, in spite of the sheer ugliness and insanity of his enemies. I blame the voters for not seeing how dangerous the left has become, and Trump’s messaging has been part of that failure of perception, IMHO. I sincerely hope you prove right, and I prove mistaken.
Diogenes, I agree with your opinion of swing voters. I believe Democrats and Republicans each have a lock on 30% of all voters. That leaves 40% as swing voters. It’s concerning that in our current political and cultural condition, we’d still have anyone on the fence. Regardless, this next election isn’t likely to be left up to the voters to decide. Cue Joseph Stalin:
I consider it completely unimportant who in the party will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this — who will count the votes, and how.
👍
OLLY,
I saw a poll awhile back that found Democrats had more registered voters than Republicans, but Independents had more than Democrat and Republican parties combined.
I responded to Fishwings when he inadvertently stumbled on some truth to which I replied to the effect of when a party’s constituents do not feel they are being represented by the party, those constituents should not just blindly continue to support the party. They should find someone who does represent them or establish another party.
I think that is what we are seeing in both parties.
Republicans may not like Trump but he has a sizable base. In 2016 most of his donations were in small amounts from individuals, whereas Clinton’s came from large donations from rich individuals and corporations. Read the transcript of one of her campaign speeches. She sounded more like Republican than she did a Democrat. Of note, Sanders also had more small amounts from individuals.
Sorry, but the old timers in both parties need to go. Change is a foot and they need to either lead (HA!), follow (not likely) or get out of the way (not likely unless voted out).
As I have stated many a time here on the good professor’s blog, I did not vote for Trump in 2016 or 2020. He may be loud, obnoxious, means tweets and all, but when looking at what he did and what his focus was compared to what the Democrats are offering, I have to vote for Trump.
Even if he is in jail.
As I have stated many a time here on the good professor’s blog, I did not vote for Trump in 2016 or 2020.
Upstate, I voted for the candidate (and party) least likely to destroy this country. I was 1 for 2. I will attempt to go 2 for 3, but I am under no illusion this will be a legitimate election.
OLLY,
You have a valid point.
And that is why I have changed my outlook to the 2024 election. No matter whom the candidate, as a Independent, I will be voting for the Republican candidate.
Again, part of the problem is within both parties we have Congress and Senators whom are more interested in maintaining power than their voters.
And again, we may reach a point where a real fight comes to the streets of every day Americans.
Where will the elites who brought us down to this lowly place be?
What BS will they offer in trade of fast food, frapachio lattes and the internet for American freedoms?
Diogenes, there is no doubt you firmly stand in the right place. Olly nailed the explanation in a better fashion than I could ever do. Trump scratched at the surface of what appeared to be a superficial infection revealing an abscess extending from head to toe. When surgeons face such a situation, their scalpels don’t cut with the beauty that some consider the hallmark of a good surgeon. Surgeons go after the cause of destruction, worrying less about how things look.
Diogenes, however, we feel, we have a country that is dying. It needs help from right-minded citizens without superficial distractions that cause supporters to take their eyes off the ball.
When it comes time to vote in the primaries, vote what you believe but let us not add damage to Trump, DeSantis, or anyone else by tearing down. If anything, build up and solidify our abilities into a united effort opposing the evil from the left. Destroy the present Democrat (leftist) party in support of Americans.
S. Meyer,
“If anything, build up and solidify our abilities into a united effort opposing the evil from the left. Destroy the present Democrat (leftist) party in support of Americans.”
Well said.
“My unhappiness with Trump stems from his failure to secure the swing vote, in spite of the sheer ugliness and insanity of his enemies.”
That is because we are not united and taught by the media and Hollywood to tear ourselves apart instead of correctly focussing, despite ” the sheer ugliness and insanity ” of the left.
Focus on Biden’s lies and how the left pretends he is telling the truth. Focus on the denial of the destruction of our nation while Biden adds debt, high prices, and war.
“Trump’s messaging has been part of that failure”
There is always damage when someone wishes to do good. If Trump did what you wanted, he would not have been President. He cannot be all things to all people.
👏
“The real question is whether one supports the leftist revolution presently, in a figurative sense, led by Biden.”
You’re giving Biden way too much credit for ‘leading’ a Leftist revolution given his current mental state, SMeyer. Biden’s string-pullers, absolutely yes, but Biden himself ‘leading’ anyone anywhere is farcical. Biden = PITO (President in Title, Only)
“You’re giving Biden way too much credit for ‘leading’”
JAFO, what I said was “
“in a figurative sense, led by Biden.”
I figured as much. Joe only leads in categories related to hair-sniffing, inappropriate touching, where’s my ice cream.
S. Meyer, OLLY, Diogenes,
A very interesting line of conversation.
I will ponder some of your good points as I water the livestock.
S. Meyer,
“Whether one supports Trump or not is not the question at hand. The real question is whether one supports the leftist revolution presently, in a figurative sense, led by Biden.”
Well said.
I do not actually think Biden is leading anything but a mere puppet for the apparatchiks from the Obama admin that now make up the Biden admin. That would explain the feverish embrace of woke leftism, as most sane long time Democrats are running from exactly that.
Personally I think long time Democrats need to soundly reject woke leftism and Republicans need to reject the swamp status quo.
If we do not I fear we are going to come to a logger head and it will spiral out of control and the stupid will commence.
I know some have called to fight but I know what that kind of fight looks like up close and personal. It is not pretty. Dang ugly for that matter.
I have commented how we are seeing a national divorce play out with the migration of people to and from places that more represent their political ideology. That just might be better in the long run.
“Whatever Trump’s pretensions about power, he is self limiting”
Three things are sought after by leaders; power, money, and sex. Trump has the money and had the sex. As President, he focuses on power most positively because he wants to do good for the nation and needs it to feed his ego. The better he does, the more his ego is fed. That is a positive characteristic.
There is truth to what you say, Alan. I do understand there is a point where I’m serving the bad guys by demanding perfection from my side. Hopefully, all will work out for the best.
We all need to demand perfection but in a positive way. We are fighting for our children’s freedom, and I am afraid that along with losing their freedom we are leaving them with a lot of debt and uncertainty.
And yes, chain-of-custody balloting is the only moral mode of democracy. Sooner or later, the Democrats’ fetish for gaming election law will start a shooting war.
The chain of custody was lost during the past election by the ballot harvesters. This involved a massive amount of ballots. The ballots were brought to a collection area (Democrat run) dropped off and then later picked up by another. There was no chain of custody.
My Oh My, seems the Democrats and Their Judaical Carnival just want Us all to bend-over at the waist and clutch or ankles,
as Mark Twain would say; Justice be “Sold Down the River”.
Justice is not – will not being served here, They are giving credence to why We must “Drain The Swamp”.
They are Blind & Nose-Deaf to Themselves.
Turley, is this a typo?
“…there is now clear evidence that Trump did not believe that the results of the election could be flipped…”
Shouldn’t “now” actually be “no”? I am generally very tolerant of typos, but once in a while they change the meaning of a sentence completely.
The issue underlying all of this is the validity of the election. I personally cannot know if there was sufficient fraud and error to change the result, but I do know there was plenty of changing the law willy nilly, oligarch contributions that greatly advantaged Democrat strongholds, and statistical irregularities that make the results suspicious. On the flip side Turley says “Many of us disagreed with Trump after the election and publicly rejected the claims of systemic voting fraud…” This opinion too is unknowable. It doesn’t address the election irregularities and constitutes an ex cathedra statement. Ex cathedra is, mathematically and scientifically, an invalid argument. People should not use things they can’t possibly know as the basis for far reaching conclusions.
Finally, the unseemliness of these various prosecutions may result in Trump becoming something like a Vaclav Havel. Havel was persecuted and jailed unjustly by the Chech communists only to eventually become the last President of Chechoslovakia and the first President of the Chech Republic. A statesman of some regard. Look out.
Not a typo. Trump knew that the election was clean and the only people who believed that it was rigged was dumbass MAGAs. He played his supporters like a fiddle.
What’s the issue?
Feel free to say anything you want in the public eye – win, lose, indifferent.
Challenge anything you wish in the courts – no matter how frivolous.
But DO NOT behind the scenes try to manipulate people to help reverse what has already been deemed official.
Got it? LOL……….
This nation and its citizenry will either travel the paved roads of the brave and the free, or the stony path of the braindead and bonded. George Santayana has made it clear what our obligation is.
This is the very same justice system used against African-American defendants for over 100 years. The same justice system that can figuratively “indict a ham sandwich”. The same justice system where about 90% of defendants never receive a jury trial at all.
What’s new is, now conservatives are on the receiving end of this same system.
The good news: now maybe all voters, of both parties, will email their members of Congress to reform these unconstitutional practices. Better late than never!
Trump should start quoting Shakespeare every time he speaks.
Firstoff, let’s kill all lawyers.
No. It’s not your precious black people who have been targeted by RICO laws. RICO laws were invented to make it easier to prosecute bosses of organized crime syndicates (few of whom are black).
When the first RICO laws were debated, civil liberty groups warned they were a threat to civil liberties. That zealous, ambitious prosecutors would repurpose them and use them for more than the stated intended purpose, which was to prosecute the Big Guys who run organized crime syndicates.
The civil libertarians were right. The government used RICO to extract over $100 billion from tobacco companies. They routinely threaten the use of RICO to extract money from banks. Left wing trash are trying to use RICO laws to bankrupt fossil fuel companies and destroy our way of life. And now RICO is being used against a former President of the United States.
RICO and the misnamed Patriot Act are two of the worst laws enacted in my lifetime.
“What’s new is, now conservatives are on the receiving end of this same system.”
This system is what Democrats used in the South and elsewhere while Republicans were marching to end such abuses. The Democrats are up to the same games of segregation and discrimination with an intentional violation of the law. There was a brief interlude where Democrats feigned support for civil liberties, but nothing changed. That period was a ruse to convince voters, but we now can see Democrats remain the same abusive people they were during slavery.
Thank you for admitting the abuses coming from the Democrat party.
Hunter has straightforward gun and tax charges, gets investigated for 5 years, has SOL lapses, gets a sweetheart SECRET deal and then gets the guy that promulgated the sweetheart deal become a “special prosecutor”.
Trump has misdemeanors that have tolled the SOL and he has them upgraded to felonies and is indicted.
Stacey Abrams, Hilary, Al Gore and even John Kerry, complain about fraudulent elections and challenge each election and get national acclaim.
Trump challenges an election and is indicted.
Joe Biden gets caught with classified documents from his time as VP and Senator, gets “investigated” and we have heard nothing.
Trump, a president, has classified documents, gets a special prosecutor and is almost immediately indicted.
2020 saw riots all over the nation as leftists burned cities, federal courthouses and bombed police cars all to national acclaim.
Righties rioted once and are going to jail for years.
Life in doublestandardstan.
Turley’s composition sloppiness is gathering notice on this blog and this statement is yet another because it is unreferenced: “Many of us disagreed with Trump after the election and publicly rejected the claims of systemic voting fraud. However, Trump had a right to not only challenge the election but to be wrong.” Let’s assume it was one of Turley’s quotes from shortly after the election. That aside, let us look at the content. Why do you suppose “many of us disagreed with Trump” on the voter fraud issue? What was the bases for such disagreement? Personal feelings, trust in the unknown, supernatural mysteries, inside knowledge? Whatever divining rod Turley and his fellow wisemen used to establish their certainty was at least as accurate and substantial as Trump’s, or, for that matter, the public that had to endure five years of unscrupulous forays from democrats falsely telling us our president was a Russian stooge, a corrupt leader and, of course, a liar, cheat and womanizer. Take your pick. Most if not all these charges were eventually proved false so the burden shifted to Trump’s opponents to show they hadn’t stolen the election. If I know that you’ve cheated me in the past, don’t I have a reasonable right to believe you may still be cheating me? The fact that Turley and others were certain that the election wasn’t stolen may be a valid opinion but so is holding the very opposite opinion that it was stolen. Only one of which can be correct but not that quickly and surely not immediately in the days, weeks, or even months following the election when every passing day brought a new revelation about some alleged voter fraud issue. So, my advice to Turley and the others who believe as he belies, knock off the self-righteousness because, at best, it is only as credible and worthy of consideration as Trump’s self-wrongedness.
You had me until the final sentence. I was all poised to hit the Like button, and then I stumbled over “Trump’s self-wrongedness.” I don’t have the first clue what “self-wrongedness” means.
Sorry, Ralph, I didn’t mean to confuse you. There is no such word as “self-wrongedness” and I used it simply to offset the notion of self-righteousness and to suggest that neither of these “nesses” entitles one to claim certainty of the matter described.
Why serious BUT dangerous, as you email headline reads, as compared to your article headline. Are you trying to get a wider readership or do you have very poor editorial assistants?
They wonder why we are frustrated when we have to see Hilary and Maddow rejoicing in an “election denier” being indicted. The stupidity, hypocrisy and shamelessness is beyond belief and is totally sickeningly beyond comprehension.
I saw that clip. It was disgusting 🤢
HullBobby,
Saw that too.
They are shameless.
The stupidity, hypocrisy and shamelessness is beyond belief and is totally sickeningly beyond comprehension.
Hullbobby, perhaps this article will make all of that comprehendible. His main point is this is about nothing more than hierarchy. To call it stupid, hypocritical and shameless is assuming they are operating under the same set of rules and the same desire for actual justice as the rest of us. They are not. If conservative DA’s throughout the country don’t start indicting Democrats using their “rules”, the opportunity to restore our justice system will soon vanish.
This is about power — who has it, and who doesn’t. The people at the top are trying to tell you, the masses under them, that they can do whatever they want to you, at any time, and there’s nothing you can do to fight back. Just look what they’re doing to Trump, a former president. If they can do that to him, imagine what they can do to you.
https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/16/the-purpose-of-the-trump-indictments-is-to-demonstrate-the-lefts-power/
“If conservative DA’s throughout the country don’t start indicting Democrats using “their” rules, the opportunity to restore our justice system will soon vanish.”
Exactly right, Olly. The Senate (finally) used Harry Reid’s rules against the D’s. It allowed three Supremes confirmed to The Court. Boy, were the Party of Donkey’s enraged about that or what? Granted, Team Blue didn’t learn any lesson…they decided ‘packing the Court’ should be the response. Still, there’s no reason not to start litigating Blues for the very things ‘they’ do themselves.
Granted, Team Blue didn’t learn any lesson…
JAFO, I believe Team Blue did, it’s Team Red that has yet to learn the “rules” of this war. Alinsky’s rule #4: Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. And they better do it immediately.
I dunno, Olly. Donkey’s already seem appalled after Alinsky-esque rules have been applied only once, so far, to them. More is better for sure, but remember, Leftists already live in DoubleStandardsstan, they might not ever ‘get it’ when we further use their own rules against them. Instead, they’ll just wonder how and why we could be so cruel – again, not getting ‘that’, either. 😊
There is one insurmountable limit to the Left: they are infertile.
Every organism has one sole purpose: to reproduce. Even viruses, which are not true organisms, have elaborate genetic mechanisms to produce progeny at the expense of their host. The best thing Americans could do is reproduce, have lots of children, and raise them, instruct them, form their conscience, teach them what works, what endures, what fills the soul: love. The Left have no love, they thrive on hate, doom and gloom, bitterness, darkness, and destroying that which is sacred: marriage, family, children.
Choose life. Let the dead bury the dead.
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1 Cor 13:7-10
“There is one insurmountable limit to the Left: they are infertile.” Yes, in more ways than one, Estovir. They know this already though. Instead, they surmount by way of ‘adoption’ to reproduce. Hence, the current wide open southern border.
JAFO: They know this already though. Instead, they surmount by way of ‘adoption’ to reproduce. Hence, the current wide open southern border.
OLLY: The mass migration we’re seeing from other countries invading our southern border is providing them more hosts to infect
Immigrants are not viruses, they are desperate people fleeing Leftist political leaders. Some of them are my patients in Richmond, VA. They think like you and me. Democrats think they will vote for them, but they are wrong. Blacks and Hispanics are fleeing the Democrat voting block, and they reject their Leftist talking points. “gender affirming hormones? children bodily mutilation? abortion? take away gun rights? defund police? penalize parents for speaking at school board meetings? not pressing charges on violent criminals and repeat offenders?” Not by a long shot. Governor Ron DeSantis is supremely popular in Florida precisely because Hispanics agree with his cultural vision of society.
Estovir, but the Left is reproducing in the exact same way. They have infected the host unabated. What they can’t infect is being systematically destroyed.
Jesus Christ, the Apostles, St Paul, the early Church Fathers up to St Augustine (5th Century AD) had it far far worse. And yet, how did that turn out? Perspective is key, Olly.
Face it, men: Christians are lousy at evangelizing by example and word. Jesus Christ and the Apostles won the hearts of people by walking with them, feeding them real food and real drink. I have said it many times Olly, and you keep missing them: evangelize locally, accompany people in your midst, journey with people in your neighborhood, your work, your gym. I’m old school: online “ministry” does not cut it.
I could give you examples but you have already read them: my clinic, university, gym, neighborhood, grocery store, barbershop, anywhere I go I am mindful to be the Hands of Christ. Im hardly perfect but I see no one else doing it, so I show up, broken and a sinner.
I also believe our church leaders have failed us, but especially most Catholic Bishops and many Catholic priests. Protestants arent much better. Jews have abandoned their rich Patrimony. We arent going to win converts based on ideology. Now more than ever, Jews and Christians need to get back the teachings that grew their families and communities.
Immigrants are not viruses, they are desperate people fleeing Leftist political leaders.
Estovir,
I did not say they were viruses. I said they are “potential” new hosts for the virus.
I have said it many times Olly, and you keep missing them: evangelize locally, accompany people in your midst, journey with people in your neighborhood, your work, your gym. I’m old school: online “ministry” does not cut it.
It’s interesting that we find each other on the same blog, but you believe I’m only “evangelizing” here and no where else. Your points are nonetheless valid, I’m just the wrong target for them.
I can not read your mind, and I have only have read about your online civics courses. and helping at a church pastors retreat? I have gotten the impression you might be physically disabled, since you have referenced medical health issues, but that perhaps is not accurate?
this is online. We cant possibly know each other via online, but if I am in error, then I am in error! Not the first time I will be in error nor the last! But yes, face to face encountering God’s people is the thing to do. The harvest is plenty, laborers are few
Estovir, your take on what Olly and I said may have missed the bigger-picture point. What you do personally and at the community level is to be commended. You do indeed, practice what you preach with regards to the people you help in so many ways. If I had to guess, most of your customers(?) arrived here by legal means, yes?
At the national level though, it’s less about charity and more about bribing anyone who can get to this side of the boarder – even if it means they’re skipping the line of people waiting to immigrate legally – and supporting them with other people’s resources, namely taxpayers in the states they arrive via healthcare, schools, and other public expenditure means (certainly not those who have the wealth and time to sponsor legitimately fleeing persecution.) It’s the ‘not in my back yard’ people to whom I refer when I said they’re repopulating ‘by adoption’.
Democrat leadership (mostly) know their own constituents are far less likely to get married and raise families than other political persuasions when one looks at the policies they support like abortion on demand and special rights for those who want to ‘transgender’. Further signs are their insistence on teaching these goals(?) to trusting children who don’t have the life experience to know they’re being indoctrinated. Growing the population with traditional, nuclear families is seen as simply not as important, comparatively…they’re ‘adopting’ other countries people with the expectation they’ll vote Democrat, legally or not.
I’ve had more than one conversation go like this: “We should help everyone who comes here, regardless of reason, if they can’t support themselves.” “Ok, are you willing to pay out of your own pocket to sponsor, how many, in your home…pay their healthcare costs, pay daily expenses like food and energy for them, on top of what you spend on your own family, pay for the cost of sending their kids to school, allow them to use your car to work, will your insurance cover any accidental loss they might cause, and for how long are you going to do that?” (Crickets).
Your Faith and following His example was far from what I meant when I replied to your post.
JAFO, I suspect Estovir is expressing his frustrations and we ended up in his crosshairs. I was a bit surprised when he said We cant possibly know each other via online, but if I am in error, then I am in error! Not, then I apologize. Either way, I forgive him. 😇
He did catch some flak this week. Like you, I didn’t take it personally. -J
I’ve had more than one conversation go like this: “We should help everyone who comes here, regardless of reason, if they can’t support themselves.”
There is a reason why Enigmain ignores me. I always hammer him with what you wrote. I know Orlando, Florida well. It has a large HIV+ population, second to Miami/Ft Lauderdale within Florida. I also studied in Gainesville, FL, 2 hours north of Orlando, and made many trips to Orlando to attend and speak at medical events near Orange Blossom Trail, where a large black population lives. Thus for many of his perpetual angry black man grievance shtick, lumping blacks, Hispanics, gays, etc, I have pounced on him because he doesnt dare get near those places like I have. Yes, liberals use minorities as props but never visit them in their distress. Alas, nor do Christians today.
I cant control what happens nationally but I can control what happens in my immediate milieu. That is my own point. If all Christians did likewise….if only
OLLY, there is room for one more for the group hug that Independent Bob has intiated that UpstateFarmer shunned. Oh the agony!
If you were ever in my crosshairs, you would know it. Im just frustrated at what I see: Christians succumbing to ideologies
I’m just frustrated at what I see: Christians succumbing to ideologies
For a bit of humor, The Babylon Bee posted a list of 10 theses Martin Luther should have added to the 95. There is a good amount wisdom in that.
Remember, with this whole Reformation thing, let’s reform the abuses and theological errors of the current Catholic church but not splinter into a bunch of groups that all hate each other: Maybe he should have put this one in there.
Number 8 on the shoulda list was pretty good, too, Olly.
“The Fellowship couldn’t have taken the Eagles to Mordor for the following reasons: 1. Eagles aren’t the chauffeurs of Middle Earth and generally don’t intervene in the affairs of men. They’re kind of like sub-angels, messengers of Valinor. It’s like asking “Why didn’t the angels just carry the Israelites to the promised land?” It’s not their role. 2. They probably would have gotten caught. Sauron had flying messengers and spies of his own, not to mention the flying Nazgul he unleashed shortly after the Council of Elrond, right when the Eagles would have been flying into Mordor. 3. The council explicitly states the reason for having a Hobbit walk it all the way is because it is a foolish plan that Sauron would not expect. While he didn’t expect them to destroy the Ring at all, he’d definitely be on the lookout for any kind of visible approach like that. 4. Eagles are high and powerful creatures, and while I don’t know if they’d even care about the Ring much less seize it, the point is made that you don’t want powerful beings to bear it. Even Gandalf doesn’t want to touch it. 5. Finally, and most importantly, remember what destroys the Ring in the end: Frodo’s act of mercy sparing Gollum, which allows the Ring to be destroyed by fate when he tries to take it from Frodo. I don’t think any mortal has the willpower to destroy the Ring. If the Eagles had just dropped off Frodo, it’s very likely he would have seized the Ring rather than cast it into the fire. It took the journey to change Frodo from “I wish Bilbo had killed Gollum” to sparing him, having perhaps some foresight that he would have a role to play.” It all makes sense.
No hug for JAFO. JAFO sad. 😔 lol
Remember, with this whole Reformation thing, let’s reform the abuses and theological errors of the current Catholic church but not splinter into a bunch of groups that all hate each other: Maybe he should have put this one in there.
Boom!! That is a great one!
At last count, there were over 10,000 Christian denominations. No wonder atheists and the Left think we are frauds…. because we are
Frauds is a bit harsh. Flawed for sure.
“Jews have abandoned their rich Patrimony.”
Not all, only some. Throughout history Jews abandoned their faith or were killed, but they continue 4,000 years later.
I assume by patrimony you mean ancestor not paternal because one is Jewish if their mother is Jewish.
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11946-patrimony
Disappointed in you
Estovir, don’t be disappointed. When you said, “Jews have abandoned their rich Patrimony.” I could only assume you were talking about faith, not money which didn’t seem to apply to the context of your remark. Jews didn’t abandon their inheritance, but many, with time, abandoned their religion. Based on Jewish law, a person is Jewish if the mother, not the father, is Jewish.
Do you realize Ruth is David’s great-grandmother? The Book of Ruth recounts her story. She was not Jewish. Ruth was a Moabite princess who converted to Judaism.
“Disappointed in you.”
🙂 Below, I will copy your entire post.
—
I also believe our church leaders have failed us, but especially most Catholic Bishops and many Catholic priests. Protestants arent much better. Jews have abandoned their rich Patrimony. We arent going to win converts based on ideology. Now more than ever, Jews and Christians need to get back the teachings that grew their families and communities.
Even viruses, which are not true organisms, have elaborate genetic mechanisms to produce progeny at the expense of their host.
Estovir, but the Left is reproducing in the exact same way. They have infected the host unabated. What they can’t infect is being systematically destroyed. The mass migration we’re seeing from other countries invading our southern border is providing them more hosts to infect. The “normies” are not going to outproduce them. We need a different form of “Operation Warp Speed” stat.
OLLY and Estovir,
I see it both ways.
Illegal immigrates will vote if given the chance for more Democrat, taxpayer funded freebies.
Those who have strong religious convictions will reject the woke leftists Democrat agenda, as we are seeing.
Ultimately when the tax and spend Democrat policies out strip the tax base, all will fail.
And then you have a fight between those who have verses those who have not. Not talking about the Mark Zuckerbergers of the world verses the single mother of two, working two jobs to make ends meet.
We are talking about the no cash bail criminals soft on crime DAs support vs the poor, the middle class suburbs.
Then things get fun.
“There is one insurmountable limit to the Left: they are infertile. Every organism has one sole purpose: to reproduce. “
Is the left’s corruption of our education system the way the left intends to reproduce? I say that jokingly but that is what is happening.
Is the left’s corruption of our education system the way the left intends to reproduce?
SM, when Estovir injected viruses into the discussion, I thought that was the perfect analogy. The Leftist ideology is to our citizens and this country what a deadly virus is to a host. To your education point, prior to the Leftist’s corrupting that system, it was the best defense against their ideology. Over the last 50 years, they have weakened our natural immunity and thus infected millions with their ideology. Anyone migrating to this country to escape what the Leftist have done to their home country are either going to be part of the problem, or part of the solution.
The virus analogy was perfect.
I don’t accept Estovir’s assurance that immigrants will not vote for the left. Many might not because recently it became more obvious that the left’s direction is suicidal for all those who wish a bright independent future. However, the left has been successful in buying votes and they will keep doing so.
As evidence look at the people migrating from NY and then pushing for what they ran away from.
Excellent analogy, Olly. 👌
Is it possible to move to Federal Court?
mrtenez, given the fact the indictment cites actions in other states, wouldn’t that necessarily make this the jurisdiction of the DOJ?
And removal only applies to acts performed in an official capacity—which doesn’t include trying to rig the vote after losing in court
There will be no elections in 2024.
We were never going to vote our way out. Not after stolen elections were allowed to stand.
Communist have seized the reins of power. The only thing they don’t control is 700 million guns and billions of rounds of ammo. God knows they’re trying.
Move to Russia.
Don’t have to. It is just as bad here.
Why?
Woke leftists will get us to communism in the next few years if we do not stand up to them.
You’re aggrandizing the threat. I’ll take “standing up to them” to mean asking pointed, non-rhetorical questions about policies, how they are measured, and how effectiveness is judged. That’s the left’s weak spot.
I’ll also take it to mean building a better policy mousetrap than the progressives. Let’s actually compete intellectually. Screw those who are lazy thinkers and think it’s best to settle political issues using violence.
They would place every freedom we enjoy as wagers on the table — and would likely lose the bet. They are mostly armchair fantasizers — not like Craig Robertson.
Upstate, we are heading in the direction you say, but one can’t predict where the endpoint will be. You are right. We must stand up, but some believe standing up for oneself is violence. It isn’t. Even physically defending oneself is not violence though some interpret it as such.
“Let’s actually compete intellectually.” (below)
I love statements like that. My response is, how is that working out? How did we get to this point? Remarks of that nature are naive because if something repeatedly fails, it is insane to keep doing the same thing. One should compete intellectually but use many modalities rather than one to defeat an enemy. Such thinking shows a lack of strategy and an inability to win a war. You know that, but too many are afraid to face the truth.
” lazy thinkers and think it’s best to settle political issues using violence.” (below)
Of course, violence should be the last resort, but before violence, many ways of fighting are not violent though some assume they are. They are too lazy to think otherwise.
I wonder, Upstate, what you do when faced with a violent pack of wolves killing your sheep. Do you read philosophy to the wolves or take out your gun and stop them?
You realize I am replying to two postings and siding with you. We have to stand up to the enemy, hopefully without violence, while being ready to use it rather than be slaughtered and subjugated.
Wally wants more neighbors.
I fought for my country in the past I’ll stay and fight.
Sally I think you’re a Communist.
Unfortunately in today’s Amerika, your legal case doesn’t need any “legs” when you have a Woke Democrat District Attorney in a majority Democrat district. Every request for a voter recount in a close election becomes an indictable offense ! Meanwhile, Mr. Sniffer Whiffer is on vacation at the beach while his bribery and classified document cases are brilliantly slow walked by Merrick Garland and Chris Wray. No double standard here folks. Thank you, Jonathan, for an excellent article.
JT says “Many of us disagreed with Trump after the election and publicly rejected the claims of systemic voting fraud. However, Trump had a right to not only challenge the election but to be wrong.”
Stop conflating what is going on here. Nobody is saying you cannot challenge an election. NOBODY. He went to court over 60 times with challenges without evidence. Judges took care of that by throwing out the cases. That is not what is at issue here. You JT, are part of the problem by misleading people. This case is about pressure to overturn an election, plain and simple.
Your point that this case should have been brought 2 years ago is absolutely spot on. If that were the case, trump would be safely in jail at this point in time and the world would be a much better place.
Stop misleading people with items that are not pertinent to what is happening here. trump was pressuring people to keep him in office after he lost an election. He had plenty of sycophants that were willing to do his dirty work. Now they are facing the courts for their actions. Let’s see how this works out.
This case is ALL about the ability to challenge an election. You’re completely off the mark here. The court cases were never heard, DESPITE all the evidence.
“DESPITE all the evidence.”
What evidence? Stop saying that and start showing the evidence. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has ever brought forth evidence that is admissible in a court of law. Including courts ran by trump judges.
Stop saying it and start showing it.
“Nobody ever brought forth evidence……” Correct, but irrelevant. All of those court challenges were killed before the part where evidence gets admitted! You might want to look at a civil procedure text. It’s tough to get evidence admitted when a politician-judge ends the case before it begins!
Giuliani was asked by multiple judges what evidence he had of widespread voter fraud and he admitted that he had none—he told the judges he filed suit to get evidence.
Whether it be Bob or Bill, one has to realize they base nothing on fact. They are a waste of time. Occasionally one with a different icon appears who should not be linked with them. I advise him to add an extra name.
Bob writes: ” Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has ever brought forth evidence that is admissible in a court of law. Including courts ran by trump judges.”
In the cases often cited by the left, 22 were won by Trump/GOP and most showed evidence of election impropriety and illegal voting procedures.
Bob cannot be trusted.
“He went to court over 60 times with challenges without evidence.”
“Stop misleading people…”
Nothing misleading about that first statement at all, is there???
Irony is loat on the modern lefty lmao
Go away troll.
And what did I say that was misleading? trump acolytes went to court over 60s times challenging the election. His attorneys yelled fraud on the court house steps and went into the court and told the judge we have nothing.
What did I say that is misleading?
You said “with no evidence” as though that were why they were shot down. Many were on standing, others were on timing. You have no idea what “evidence” they had, because it was never heard.
And the evidence is?
Please stop talking about evidence and start showing it.
In Federal Court, if you lack proof of demonstrable injury due to complained-of conduct, then you have no standing to invoke the jurisdiction of the court. This is per Coney-Barrett when she was on the Seventh Circuit in an FDCPA case. Giuliani had no proof of any widespread voter fraud. You can’t file suit claiming that you were the victim of wrongdoing and then hope to somehow come up with proof of your allegations. And, no doubt, Trump would have sought an injunction to stop Biden from taking office while he tried to create proof. The courts were having none of it.
Here is the case, cited in a recent opinion “Casillas v. Madison Avenue Associates, Inc., in an opinion by
then-Judge Barrett, the Seventh Circuit concluded that because a violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act did not actually harm the
plaintiff/claimant, there was no standing. 926 F.3d 329, 332 (7th Cir. 2019).(Barrett, J.).”
Trump couldn’t prove there was fraud, much less that it resulted in his losing in 2020, so he had no standing.
You just did it again. So thats what happened 60 times? Now you arent misleading, bow you are lying. Liar
“He went to court over 60 times with challenges without evidence. Judges took care of that by throwing out the cases.”
Stop lying. The vast majority of those cases were thrown out due to alleged “lack of standing,” NOT lack of evidence.
Where’s the evidence?
I’ll wait for reports and/or links?
Or should I just wait until 11am on Monday? LMFAO.
Whats the point? U wont believe your lying eyes anyway, troll
And where is the evidence?
There is no evidence.
If there was, don’t you think Trump would be on TV every day pushing reports, facts, and such? What happened, did they just lose interest?
He’s got nothing except Tweets and posts saying we were robbed, it’s rigged!!! UNFAIR!!!
My goodness……everybody including the GOP is telling you there was no election fraud that made a difference in any state.
Trump being a sore loser finally caught up to him in the worst way.
Don’t worry, he’s not doing jail time though…..so you have that.
Perfect example of sea lioning. Any evidence pointed to would simply be written off as debunked. No one can believe their lying eyes. You probably claim there is no evidence of joe biden’s crimes.
That stupid argument is so easy. Watch this…
Where is the evidence that trump has committed a crime?
Why is “sea lioning” always the response to evidentiary requests made by folks asserting evidence-free claims?
Pics or it didn’t happen. Any one can make an evidence-free claim. For example, I SAW THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!
Why attack the reasonable response, which is ===> Do you have any evidence of this?
I’ve never understood this anti-intellectual phenomenon of the right. Can you imagine a college student, trolling a professor by calling her a sea lion after she wonders where the evidence was to support a position made in a paper? This “sea lioning” crap is anti-intellectual, and in my experience, any one who resorts to it has already lost the argument.
It is the 2020s version of giving up on an argument.
“everybody including the GOP is telling you there was no election fraud that made a difference in any state.”
You just can’t resist, can you? “Everybody” is telling Ralph that? No one is saying otherwise??? Interesting. It must be lonely on Ralph’s island. You tell me, was this a misleading statement, or merely a lie?
“The GOP”??? What is that? The entire Republican party??? Misleading or a lie?
“And where is the evidence?”
Sea lion much??
Yep, bug thats the point of sea lioning, under the guise of honest debate. The fact is everyone here that is well informed knows plenty of details of the fraud allegations. Why would I waste my time pointing to what has been pointed to many times as evidence, only to have a half wit counter it by simply saying “thats not evidence” or “thats been debunked”? But thanks for your typically useless insight.
I know you’re not, but what am I??
LMAO
Honest question….are you looking forward to seeing what Trump is presenting on Monday and do you think it will be legitimate? Will it help his case or even, as he says, exonerate everyone?
Honest question: how many “tuck friendly” swimwear items did you buy at Target? Will you wear them at your favorite Los Angeles gay sauna and bathhouse or endure being scorned by the gay men you have failed to impress these past 30 years? Will you keep your
tummytuck friendly items in the hopes they become collectors items or donate them to the LA homeless shelter in hopes of scoring with one of homeless provide you cheap trills?{Target reports first quarterly sales drop in 6 years after ‘Pride Month’ disaster}
“Target’s said its quarterly sales fell for the first time in six years — a result of customers’ “negative reaction” to its spring “Pride” clothing collection that featured “tuck-friendly” swimwear and LGBTQ-friendly gear for infants and children.”
– LGBTQ Groomer News
+100
Bill
Well, at least you admit by implication that your previous questions were not honest.
I don’t know if the info Monday will be legit or not. What I do know is that I don’t have a preconceived notion regarding it, but I suspect you do. I recognize that too often information processing is distorted by the lens of today’s viewer.
What I also recognize is that it will be almost impossible to make a sound judgement regarding that info because information will be distorted BY BOTH SIDES. Your ilk refuses to accept that reality.
“I still believe the lie because I saw it on NBC news”—Gigi
Wisconsin and Michigan, both have reports documenting the evidence of illegal ballots, illegal procedures. The media has covered it with a pillow
The evidence wasn’t presented. They didn’t get to present the evidence because the cases were thrown out due to the judges claiming that plaintiff’s lacked “standing.”
Turley REALLY needs to institute some standards at the blog to keep morons from crapping all over what could be intelligent discourse.
Ralph: there wasn’t any evidence TO present.
Our justice system cannot exist without procedural dismissal.
Regardless, it is patently false that the courts dismissed cases solely due to lack of standing.
Many were thrown out due to a lack of evidence.
https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/2020-election-litigation-the-courts-held/
Ward v. Jackson et al.
Superior Court of Arizona, Maricopa County; Arizona Supreme Court
CV 2020-015285
HELD: the court found that there was no evidence of “misconduct, impropriety, or violation of Arizona law” in reviewing the signatures on mail-in ballots.
Law et al. v. Whitmer et al. (AFFIRMED BY STATE SUPREME COURT)
The First Judicial District Court for the State of Nevada, Carson City
Case No. 20 OC 00163 1B
HELD: “appellants have not pointed to any unsupported factual findings [by the district court], and we have identified none.”
Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. v. Benson
Michigan Court of Claims
Case No. 20-000225-MZ
Judge Cynthia Diane Stephens
HELD: Evidence inadmissible due to multiple layers of hearsay.
Amen!
Bob, Jack Smith and Fani Willis are applying criminal statutes intended for other purposes to criminalise Trump’s challenge to the 2020 election. That is the essence of what is happening here. Can you or someone else give a single example where the crimes of fraud on the US, obstruction of an official proceeding, deprivation of voting rights, or conspiracy to do the same, or RICO, have been successfully applied to peaceful efforts to persuade officials or legislators to correct the allegedly false recording of election results? You need to filter out the heated rhetoric of the indictments, including the use of words such as “lie” and “criminal” and “conspiracy,” to understand what is being done here.
The indictment sets out the “manner and methods”—eight methods, to be precise—by which the organization allegedly pursued its criminal objectives:
1. Making false statements to state legislators about the outcome of the election and soliciting those officials to reject the lawful electoral votes and unlawfully appoint their own electors;
2. Making similar false statements to state leaders, including the Georgia governor, secretary of state, and speaker of the House of Representatives, and soliciting them to violate their oaths to the Georgia Constitution and to the United States Constitution by unlawfully changing the outcome of the presidential election;
3. Creating and distributing false electoral college documents to president of the United States Senate, the archivist of the United States, the Georgia Secretary of State, and the chief judge of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Georgia;
4. Harassing and intimidating Fulton County election worker Ruby Freeman;
5. Soliciting high ranking Justice Department officials to make false statements to government officials in Georgia, including the governor, the speaker of the state House of Representatives, and the president pro tempore of the state Senate;
6. Soliciting Vice President Mike Pence to violate the U.S. Constitution and federal law by unlawfully rejecting Electoral College votes cast in Fulton County and those cast from several other states;
7. Unlawfully accessing secure voting equipment in Georgia, stealing their voter data, and distributing that data to other members of the enterprise; and finally,
8. Covering up their conspiracy by filing false documents, making false statements to government investigators, and committing perjury in judicial proceedings in Fulton County.
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-fulton-county-indictment-an-initial-examination
Which of those claims do you factually dispute, and on what basis?
I love it. I guess thats where the argument ends, eh ATS?
Fanni to judge “Your honor, I submit as people’s exhibit 1, the indictment. This evidence proves the defendant’s guilt AND the validiity of the charges. The people rest their case and invite the defendants to factually dispute the charges, and if they cannot, ask that the jury return a verdict of guilty on all counts.”
Red queen “Off with their heads”!
Putting this above Gigi’s last batch of vomit.
Hey Gigi Do you still think Texas makes electricity from crude oil???
Best stop cutting and pasting from your daily democrat talking points email.
Texas Electricity by type
Natural gas 46%
Wind 23%
Coal 18%
Nuclear 11%
Solar 2%
When you are from the left and lack critical thinking skills you don’t recognize that copying from the left means you are copying things that are made up, not true or meaningless.
” Making false statements to state legislators about the outcome of the election”
It’s nice to know that the left determines what is true and what is false. Isn’t that what Stalin did?
The rest of the report is more of the same. Garbage.
Yes, a prosecutor makes allegations as to what is true and what is false in an indictment. Those allegations may involve crimes like fraud, in which an element the prosecution must prove is the falsity of a statement made by the Defendant.
This is how our justice system works, regardless of the party of the prosecuting attorney. None of this is analogous to Stalinist USSR.
Thank you. For those who are interested, Joe Patrice of “Above the Law “ published an excellent piece criticizing Turley for misleadingly claiming that Trump is being prosecuted for his lies rather than his actions. Joe points out that Turley knows that Trump supporters are gullible and so he tells them what they want to hear. There’s also a link to a piece about Turley getting criticized by a graduation speaker at his university for his advocacy on Fox.
And this one below
Hey Gigi Do you still think Texas makes electricity from crude oil???
Best stop cutting and pasting from your daily democrat talking points email.
Texas Electricity by type
Natural gas 46%
Wind 23%
Coal 18%
Nuclear 11%
Solar 2%