Academia, Free Speech

Disinformation Allegations Fly at Harvard’s Disinformation Center

For years, free speech advocates (including myself) have criticized the new rationalization for censorship in the cause of combating disinformation, misinformation, and malinformation. As discussed in my new book, The Indispensable Right: Free Speech in an Age of Rage,  there is a burgeoning cottage industry in academia in helping corporations and government agencies to target certain political, social, and scientific viewpoints. One of those centers is located at the Harvard University’s Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics, and Public Policy. Now, however, the faculty are accusing each other of misinformation over the departure of “misinformation and disinformation” expert Joan Donovan.

According to an article in The Chronicle of Higher Education, Donovan is in a spat with her former colleagues over the events and accusations leading up to her departure. She has released a 248-page document from December 2022 in which she alleged that Meta (formerly Facebook) was behind a campaign targeting  her and her team, the Technology and Social Change Project. She alleged that her position was eliminated at the behest of  Elliot Schrage, a former Facebook executive and Harvard alumnus, as well as other Meta executives.

Donovan cites a Zoom call in October 2021 in which she alleges that Schrage dominated the discussion and accused her of inaccurately reading documents related to Facebook. However, a recording of the meeting shows that Schrage spoke for only three minutes and that the Facebook files were never discussed.

Facebook was long accused of a massive censorship program but, unlike Twitter, never voluntarily released its files for public scrutiny.

Now various Harvard staff and former staff are accusing Donovan of spreading misinformation or disinformation. They insist that Meta never exerted pressure on the group and accuse Donovan of lying in making such claims as Harvard owning the copyright to her book “Meme Wars.”

They also say that it is untrue that the university stole her plans to publish confidential Facebook documents. Latanya Sweeney, a professor who worked on the project, called Donovan’s version of events “gross mischaracterizations and misstatements.” Sweeny maintains that the vast majority of the work on the project was done by Sweeney and her team.

Fortunately, none of these adversaries will be banned or throttled on social media for alleged disinformation or misinformation. Free speech protects such disagreements and allows the truth to be established by open debate and discourse.

 

176 thoughts on “Disinformation Allegations Fly at Harvard’s Disinformation Center”

  1. Trump rally in Las Vegas today:

    They are selling 19 dollar Trump gold sneakers for $750 today in Vegas, but we are supposed to believe the economy is in the tank, and people can’t afford groceries.

        1. Maybe, but that is not your problem. Or maybe they will be worth 1500.

          It does not matter – you are free to make YOUR choices – not those of others.

          Your efforts to control other peoples choices is part of why some of them are buying $750 sneakers.

    2. Actually, now we know why MAGA cultists can’t afford groceries.
      What little money they have left after paying Trump’s legal bills, they are “investing” in golden sneakers.

      2. It is not mostly MAGA voters that are having difficulty – it is minorities, it is the people in the bottom half of the country. It is groups that have been Democrats for generations.

        Increasingly THEY are voting against you.

        And your response is to insult the people whose votes you have lost ?

      3. You have made the 2024 campaign about lawfare. While you have a mixed record in judicial courts – you are losing in the most important court of all – that of public opinion. There has been some noise in Trump’s poll numbers – but they have remained above Biden’s pretty much since the start of your lawfare campaign.

        You have made the election about legal battles – so that is where money is going – at the same time this lawfare strategy is cost you votes and likely the election.

      4. When it comes to spending money on expensive sneakers, we know who are the consumers. As for the price of groceries, take a walk through a supermarket. In NYC a loaf of bread sells for $5.00.

    3. Your posts captures the cognitive failure of the left.

      First you seem to think you should be entitled to control the choices of others.
      But Trump Golden Sneakers or Don’t – your choice.
      What is NOT your choice is wherther other buy Trump golden Sneakers, or Gas stoves, or SUV’s or anything else.

      Second – nearly all economic indicators are trending the wrong way and most have been for some time.
      The majority of people perceive (accurately) that the economy is F#$Ked up.
      And you are STILL trying to Pretend that everyone else must go along with YOUR warped perception.

  2. Out of curiosity, I checked the last 75 posts and over 85% of them are generated by the poster(s) that does not fill in the name slot. Thus it comes through as “anonymous.”

    Pure speculation here but either this individual is a paid operative or they do not have a job, a life that exists beyond social media, or any hobbies?

    This makes a lot of work to scroll past in order to find other people who post on this site.

    Perhaps this individual should turn off the computer, go on a walk, take in a movie, ball game, etc. Less is more.?

    1. EM is right. When someone has a screen name we can get to know each other and have a community and ongoing conversations even without knowing the person’s real name. The proliferation of anonymous commenting, which has now become extreme, disrupts that and diminishes the experience for everyone else.

  3. Our neighbor’s dog just pooped on our lawn, so my wife immediately turned our American flag upside down.
    Obviously, the only reasonable response, right ?

    3. Your free to make your own judgement as to what is reasonable.
      You are not free to control others.

      People who wish to remain married do not call the choices of their wives unreasonable.

      No wonder left wing nuts have such a hard time making lifetime committments to a spouse.

  5. Does one swinging dick here think its a coincidence that Elvis Bug hasn’t posted since the despicable piece of shit showed up?

    1. Darren Smith, where are you?

      You don’t need to censor free speech, just edit, plleeeeease!!??

  6. Trump rally in Las Vegas today.

    In his hardest hitting political statement to date, Donald Trump gives a lengthy explanation of why he’d rather be electrocuted by a sinking e-boat than eaten by a shark.

    I think it’s over folks. How can Biden possibly respond to this.

      1. Oh I’m sorry, was I suppose to let you answer your own question again, dick lick?

    3. Biden Rally in Arizona today. If a man sharts in the desert, and no one is around to sniff it, does it smell?

      Maybe Denny’s friend can tell us

    4. CIVILITY AND DECORUM POLICY VIOLATION, BY WAY OF GROSS AND EGREGIOUS IMPERTINENCE, HERE.

      BAN FOR LIFE. 

  7. Jonathan: There is a much bigger controversy than what is going on at Harvard. It involves Clarence Thomas who was back in the news this week. Probably why you chose to discuss a minor dispute at Harvard rather than discuss your good friend’s continuing ethical conflicts. So I will discuss where you dare not tread.

    On top of the “two flags” Sam Alito controversy that shows Sam is on the side of the J.6 insurrectionists, we now have Thomas who never sees any problem in representing the interests of his billionaire donors while he is on the Court.. For twenty years Thomas has received hundreds of thousands, in not millions, in gifts from his benefactor Harlan Crowe. Now the latest controversy.

    On Friday Thomas finally got around to reporting a luxury trip to Bali paid for by Harlan Crowe in 2019. Thomas justified the late filing by saying he failed to report the trip due to an “inadvertent” error. No one believes that. Salon describes the trip this way: “Thomas boarded a private jet for Indonesia, where he and his wife proceeded to island hop
    for nine days on a 162-foot superyacht with a private chef–a trip that would have cost him over $500,000 had he tried to pay for it himself”. Does Thomas see any conflict of interest or judicial ethical problem from that trip? Nope.

    Many are now calling for a comprehensive criminal and congressional investigation of Thomas’s continued breach of his ethical obligations as a SC Justice–including his finances and taxes. For example, did Thomas report the $500,000 “gift” from Crowe on his tax returns? If a former president can be criminally convicted for business and tax fraud why not a Supreme Court Justice?

      1. Still having trouble with narcolepsy?
        Dr. Phil should be able to help you.

        1. Still having trouble with that maga episiotomy? See you OB/GYN

    2. If you don’t know that Thomas failed to report a gift on his tax return, why would you suggest that there was tax evasion?

    3. When Thomas refuses to Recuse himself from a case in which Harlan Crowe is an actual party, you can complain about Thomas.

      Sotomayor told us the court can benefit from the views of a Latina.
      I have not seen her recuse herself from affirmative action cases.

      If Alito is openly opposed tot he abridgement or worse still criminalization fo the excercise of Free Speech on J6
      That would not disqualify him or require him to Recuse himself.

      Free speech is the most strongly protected right in the constitution.

      Supreme court justices are not supposed to come into each case with a neutral view. To even have a case before the supreme court atleast 4 justices have to feel strongly enough to hear the case. SCOTUS is not required to take any cases, not even ones that all 9 justices beleive are wrongly decided.

      Several justices have refered to J6 as an insurrection – which it obviously was not, Must they recuse themselves from J6 cases ?

    4. The gift of a vacation would not be reportable on the recipient’s tax return. However, it may be reportable by Crow as a reduction of his estate exclusion.
      I would think it is not an ethical question unless a case was before the court involving Crow or one of his companies.

      1. Correct, Thomas is reqeiving Perks fromn a single person – in return for the prestige of having a supreme court justice at dinner or with you on vacation. You may not like this, but it is not only legal but ethical and wise.

        Thomas need only recuse himself is a Case where Crowe is a party comes before the court.

        That is unlikely.

    1. He can’t associate with anyone who has a criminal record.
      That would be most of his campaign staff.

        1. I wonder if she will be able to help him find the gainful employment that is required for probation.

            1. Anonymous: You are always on point and funny at the same time. Thanks for putting DJT’s problem in a nutshell!

              2. Thanks !!
                This stuff writes itself really.
                It’s not that hard.

                1. We can tell its not much effort.

                  Hint: Dennis sees himself as funny too.

                  Like you, he thinks people are laughing WITH him….

                  I suspect he at least has a life.

              3. Glad to see you align yourself with this despicable piece of shit, Dennis. Peas in a pod.

              4. Dennis – these are all problems for the Left, not Trump.

                Trump WANTS you to behave stupidly.
                Trump WANTS you to jail him or to hinder his campaigning.
                Trump WANTS you to keep proving again and again that you are engaged in weaponized political lawfare – because you are unable to win the election fair and square.

                Your making him more powerful BEFORE and AFTER the election.

                So PLEASE keep it up.

              5. DJT has no problem – the left is working hard to get him elected.

                I would suggest that NOW you might want to start contemplating what little influence you might have on a Trump presidency.

                I expect Trump will be asked about “revenge” in the June 27th debate. I expect two parts to his answer.
                First – that he will be two busy trying to repair the country,
                Second – that people who have no committed actual crimes need not worry about being prosecuted by a Trump administration.
                That a Trump DOJ will not be making up crimes, and will be thwarting states that do.

                Regardless, You have done your dirtiest. You have Failed.
                Trump still leads. I beleive he has a 20pt lead in betting odds. He has a lead in all swing states, and 3-4 blue states are now in play.

                Little is likely to improve for Biden in the next 4+ months.

                Increasingly the question is whether Biden is taking the rest of the democratic party with him.

      2. I prefer commenters who dont eat the peanuts out of their own shit.

      3. False, and PLEASE PLEASE try to limit Trump’s ability to campaign further !

        PLEASE jail Trump, violate him over political acts!

        Please prove again and again how desparate you are.

        Please prove again and again that you are engaging in election fraud in 2024 and that you did engage in election fraud in 2020 and 2016.

    2. I prefer Presidents who don’t use law-fare to target their opponent.

    3. I prefer presidents who don’t run a corrupt bribe-taking pay to play crime syndicate, and who have some experience in business and haven’t spent their whole lives as a government apparatchik and contributed nothing to the world other than referring to African Americans as “clean” if they like them, and who haven’t driven inflation through the roof and stifled the American energy sector and opened up the border to millions of illegal invaders most of whom are single males of military age, and who haven’t given Iran billions of dollars to use for terror and who haven’t shown such weakness on the world stage that new wars start all over the place and who don’t support lawlessness through lawfare and George Soros soft on crime DAs.

    6. So do I.
      I also prefer presidents that know where they are.
      I prefer presidents that do not unnececarily start multiple wars.
      I prefer presidents that do not tank the economy.
      I prefer presidents that do not act lawlessly outside the constitution.

  9. See below for the shortest post ever by Dennis the Draft Dodger.

    He couldnt find anything to disagree with Turley about, so he just wasted a few words and then asked Turley why.

    As the narcissist he is, he couldn’t bear to take this one opportunity to just STFU. He is too proud of his turds, even when they aren’t steaming.

    1. Professor Turley’s concluding paragraph begins with the word “Fortunately.”

      Fortunately, none of these adversaries will be banned or throttled on social media for alleged disinformation or misinformation.

      Dennis’s response: “What are you complaining about?”

      Now when someone says fortunately, my first instinct is not to interpret that as a complaint. Apparently Dennis lives in a world where every utterance on any topic must be a complaint, regardless of its content. His world is a strange one indeed.

    2. There is no disinformation or misinformation, only information

      1. Under the “Joe Biden” administration disinformation and misinformation refer to truthful information that contradicts the regime’s official narrative (which of course is always a lie).

  10. Jonathan: Looks like there is actually a lot of “free speech” and robust debate going on at Harvard–at least as you describe it in your column about the controversy surrounding Joan Donovan. No censorship at Harvard. So what are you complaining about? Really?

    1. Hey Dennis, how is that “convicted felon” thing working out for you?

    2. When ‘Dennis’ is ‘Dennis’ it’s Jonathan.
      When ‘Dennis’ is ‘Gigi’, it’s Turley.
      “Free speech” to he/she means getting to sow disrespect.
      Whataboutism. Blue kool-aid talking points.
      It’s not about adding to the conversation here.
      It’s misinformation.

    3. The Bill of rights is not something you are supposed to follow alot of the time.

      Rights are something you are supposed to have ALL OF THE TIME

  12. Trumpy bear up on his PO tomorrow. And Alex Jones weeping on his show because he finally has to pay the people he defamed. Awesome sauce.

    3. What is being done to Jones is proof of the evil of the left.

      Jones can not possibly ever pay this stupid, unconstitutional and ultimately likely to be overturned judgement.

      But he CAN pay more of it if he remains in business.

      Regardless, Jones is going Chapter 7 bankrupt. Everything except a few legally protected assets will be sold.

      Shortly thereafter he will re-appear free of debt to start over.
      The Judge is claiming that the defamation awards can not be discharged in bankruptucy – the judge is OBVIOUSLY wrong.
      There is almost nothing that is not discharged in a chapter 7 bankruptcy – under VERY NARROW circumstances tax debts can not be discharged.

      If that were not true no one would select chapter 7 bankruptcy.
      If the court refuses to discharge the judgement – then Jones will refuse to proceed with Chapter 7 bankrupcy.

      I would furhter note that Jones is near certain to ultimately prevail on appeal.

      That is going to create a major problem – because anything he has paid and any damage done to him will have to be repaid.

      All the cases against Jones were long past statutes of limitation.

    4. Odd that you are celebrating what is fundamentally a victory for Jones.

      The jones case is just another example of left wing lawfare.

      After two illegal trials well past the statute of limitations over remarks that did not defame anyone and ludicrously stupid awards that will be overturned, in the unlikely event the cases are not tossed – plaintiffs attorney’s ignored efforts to settle the cases in ways that were actually possible and beneficial to their clients. opting to try to destroy Jones – which is not possible, and which the courts will not participate in.

      So let me give you some predictions based on the actual law.

      Jones goes Chapter 7 bankrupt. His major assess – such as his studio are turned over to secured creditors – I believe for the studio that is his father. Jones gets to keep a fair amount of personal possessions – such as his home – TX has very broad protections of personal property in bankruptcy – regardless, nearly all of jones’s unprotected net worth goes to secured creditors – not the plantiffs – that is the law. The Judgement against him survive bankruptcy but are now completely limited to his personal life. Jones continues on air as before – he no longer owns his media empire – his secured creditors do – that is NOT the plaintiffs.
      The appeals continue, the cases get dismissed and ultimately the plaintiffs and plaintiffs attorney’s owe Jones Damages for driving him to bankruptcy over a bogus case. The Plaintiffs attorney’s are in especially deep trouble as they have a fiduciary duty to their clients.

      Expect to see the plaintiffs law-firms bankrupted in the next several years.

  14. Russian Disinformation Is Cost Effective Means Of Undermining The West

    Perhaps the most persistent and prevalent Russian online operation is Doppelganger. First identified by researchers at the EU DisinfoLab in 2022, the campaign has impersonated news outlets including the U.K.’s The Guardian, Germany’s Der Spiegel, The Washington Post and Fox News, and it has posed as NATO, the Polish and Ukrainian governments, the German police and the French Foreign Ministry.

    In addition to operating fake accounts and phony websites, the operation purchased Facebook ads targeting French and German audiences with messages about aid to Ukraine, farmers’ protests and the war in Gaza, according to the European nonprofit AI Forensics.

    Doppelganger has also set its sights on the Paris Olympics, Microsoft said in a report this week. It used fake French-language news sites to push claims of corruption in the Games’ organizing body and to warn of potential violence.

    https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/g-s1-2965/russia-propaganda-deepfakes-sham-websites-social-media-ukraine
    ………………………………………….

    What interest does Johnathan Turley have in poo-pooing the existence of Russian disinformation?

    2. Lets see an operation no one heard of that engaged in propoganda that almost no one heard and few of those who heard beleived is according to left wing nuts an existential threat.

      Please exercise the few neurons you appear to have.

      You can not stop nations from trying to influence other nations, their people, their elections, using both truthful and untruthful speech.
      Even the US on fairly significant scale does exactly that.

      The Biden admin overtly influences the Brazillian election. Its involvment was far more extensive than anything Russia has ever done.

      No one pooh pooh’s the existance of disinformation.

      What we are is adamantly opposed to any efforts to use FORCE to constrain speech.

      The correct response to speech you do not like is more speech,
      and the rest of us get to judge what we think is disinformation or not.

      YOU are only entitled to make that decision for yourself – not the rest of us.

      The vast majority of people do not give a schiff about the propoganda campaigns of dying regional powers.

  15. Lindsey Graham declares D-Day invasion was a FAILURE !! (CBS Face the Nation)

    Clearly he thinks the wrong side won WWII.

    He is longing for an authoritarian Nazi style regime to take over the government of this country.

    MAGA are now saying the quiet part out loud.

    1. I wonder what his “good friend” John McCain would have to say about that ?

    2. Your desperation is showing. Graham and MAGA have opposite views on war-related issues.

      1. I’m not really sure what that means?
        Can you explain MAGA views on war and how they differ from Graham’s views?

        1. First can you provide more information about Graham supposedly saying D-Day was a failure, and how that is now the MAGA quiet part being said out loud?

          1. I told you that he was on CBS Face the Nation this morning. The video is online.

            His exact words: “”We celebrated the 80th anniversary of D-Day. It was a failure. It was the unnecessary war”

            Obviously he thinks the war was “unnecessary”. If it was unnecessary, he is obviously saying he thinks the Nazis should have been allowed to prevail.
            MAGA is backing a candidate who openly states that he will be a dictator on Day One. He has never backed off that claim.

            Now please answer my question.
            How do MAGA views on war differ from Graham’s views?

            1. Graham is for more Ukraine war funding; MAGA is against it. Graham is for new wars, MAGA is against them. In every way on issues of war Graham and MAGA are opposite.

              I looked for the clip and couldn’t find it. Could you provide a link please? Without seeing it for myself in the context of the conversation, I don’t trust your description of what he said and supposedly meant.

            2. I’ll answer your ignorant fvcking question, ya retard.

              Populists (maga if thats what u wanna use) believe we should fight the wars we need to fight (including world war 2). Lindsey graham is a neo-con, and thinks we are the worlds policeman, just like the modern marxist party. He loves war. You probably dont, but the modern libtard gets his marching orders from on high, and they tow the line. They feel they must march lockstep in order to keep their dead babies, sexual mutilation of minors, porn in elementary school libraries, and drag queen story hour.

              What graham went on to say, and you are too stupid to bother figuring out for yourself, is that we could have stopped hitler several chances before that. So he is arguing that we should have dome something sooner, and the war would have been unnecessary.

              Next time, do your own fvckijg research, this isnt the place for it.

              Modern marxist: start with a conclusion, look for evidence.

              1. And the same lack of context/ inability to reason applies to your stupid comment about trump.

                Why dont you give me a viable plan wherewith Trump could be a dictator on day one.

                His words were NOT literal, and you would know that if you watched the entire interview. Instead you got your opinion from on high, like a good little marxist and repeated that horse shit here. Good boy!

                What he was referring to, if you want to learn something, is the executive orders that he will issue. Same thing you man boy Biden did. Difference is, Trumps EO’s will undue Biden’s shit and put back in place what was working before 8 million illegals, 9% interest and 8% interest rates.

                Biden signed into law $6T in NEW spending, under “reconciliation”. So dont tell us about a fvckijg dictator.

              2. Graham is not arguing that WWII was unnecescary that is a generally accepted FACT.
                As you and Graham effectively noted – it was unnecescary because not making any of a number of mistakes would have precluded it.

                But once all the mistakes were made we were obligated to fight it.

                I would further note that Germany declared war on the US.

            3. The chances are you left out the context behind what he was saying. Some are too ignorant to understand how important context is..

              *****Keep hiding under anonymous so your mistakes can diffuse through all the anonymous posters. That is what you want from the government, as it’s part of your personality not to take responsibility for what you do or say.

            4. “”We celebrated the 80th anniversary of D-Day. It was a failure. It was the unnecessary war”

              That is correct – and pretty universally understood. WWII occured as a consequence of the poor handling of the ending of WWI.
              Without that the post WWI German economy would not have collapsed so badly, there would not have been german hyper inflation,
              and Corporal Hitler would not have been about to work the anger and humiliation of the german people to gain power.

              WWII was an unnecessary war – as was WWI.

              But as with all wars – necessary or not, once you are in them – we must win them.

              “If it was unnecessary, he is obviously saying he thinks the Nazis should have been allowed to prevail.”
              non sequitur.

              This one of the most fundimental logical errors that there is.

              “MAGA is backing a candidate who openly states that he will be a dictator on Day One. He has never backed off that claim.”
              Of course he has not – because in context his remark does not mean what you claim.

              Specifically what he refered to was that on the first day of Trump’s presidency he will unilaterally rescind myriads of Biden Executive orders, undo myriads of failed Biden policies.

              All of these are perfectly constitutional acts, most of them actually diminish the power of the federal govenrment and are therefore anti-totalitarian.

              Trump supporters take him seriously but not literally
              Left wing nuts take him literally but not seriously.

              Al the Trump remarks that left wing nuts froth at the mouth over, are easily understodd by not just Trump supporters, but anyone not on the far left who listens to the full in context remarks.

              Those of you on the left have spent the past 9 years taking Trump remarks out of context and selectively editing them.

              Trump need not disavow his remarks – because outside the left people understood what he was saying and support it.

              “How do MAGA views on war differ from Graham’s views?”
              Already answered.
              But that should not need to be answered.

              Both Trump and Graham ran for president in 2016.
              The differences between Graham and Trump were quite public at that time.

              While Trump and Graham generally get along – as opposed to Trump and Chenney who shares the same NeoCon views as Graham.
              They do not agree on foreign policy or war. Graham unlike Cheney is not going to impeach Trump over those differences.

          2. The person can’t because they had said was a bold-faced lie through their crooked teeth.

            https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lindsey-graham-senator-south-carolina-face-the-nation-transcript-06-09-2024/

            “BEGIN SOUND ON TAPE

            SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): He doesn’t want Ukraine. He doesn’t want Europe. Hell, he- he’s got enough land of his own. He just wants to make sure that he does not have United States weapons in Ukraine pointing at Moscow.

            END SOUND ON TAPE

            MARGARET BRENNAN: Those echo some Russian talking points. Senator, I- I wonder if those remarks from your fellow Senator represent the GOP?

            SEN. GRAHAM: No, it represents him and him alone. If you spent 15 minutes studying Putin and what he wants, he wants to re- recreate the Russian Empire. He’s not going to stop in Ukraine. [We celebrated the 80th anniversary of D-Day. It was a failure. It was the unnecessary war, described by Winston Churchill.] We had a dozen chances to stop Hitler. It’s not about NATO. It’s not about American weapons in Ukraine. It’s about a megalomaniac wanting to create the Russian Empire by force of arms. If you don’t stop him, there goes Taiwan. So we’ve been slow as hell of helping Ukraine, but Senator Tuberville’s analysis really misses what Putin’s all about. He’s an outlier, I think, in the Republican Party. I like him personally. But what did Trump do to get the weapons flowing? He created a loan system. They’re sitting on 10 to $12 trillion of critical minerals in- in Ukraine. They could be the richest country in all of Europe. I don’t want to give that money and those assets to Putin to share with China. If we help Ukraine now, they can become the best business partner we ever dreamed of, that 10 to $12 trillion of critical mineral assets could be used by Ukraine and the West, not given to Putin and China. This is a very big deal how Ukraine ends. Let’s help them win a war we can’t afford to lose. Let’s find a solution to this war. But they’re sitting on a gold mine. To give Putin 10 or $12 trillion for critical minerals that he will share with China is ridiculous.”

            I put what Graham had actually said in brackets.

        2. While the MAGA movement is not strictly anti-war or strictly isolationist, it absolutely reflects a diminished day to day military role for the US globally.

          Graham is MAGA on many things – but his military and foreign policy are decidely NEOCON, not MAGA.

          The MAGA movement still supports a strong military, but with radically limited situations in which the US would use military force.

          Shifts in the positions of Republicans and democrats on military policy and foreign relations are a major part of the seismic political realignment we are in the middle of.

    3. In other news, Nancy Pelosi says a huge hole should be dug in midtown Manhattan and the Empire State Building should be dropped in it. This shows the Dems are now saying the quiet part out loud: their real objective is to bury all US office buildings underground, pave them over, and install 100,000 strip malls on every farm in the country.

      1. So you are saying that Lindsey Graham is just as demented and crazy as Nancy Pelosi.

        1. No, I’m saying all Dems, without exception, want to bury all American office buildings, and put 100,000 strip malls on American farms. And I know this because Nancy Pelosi said the thing about the Empire State Building.

    4. He may have thought that a crusade to liberate Europe,which ended up with the Soviet Union controlling at least half of Europe, was a failure. If that is what he meant, he was correct.

      1. The full context of Graham’s remarks or a full understanding of them are not necescary to understand that ATS’s conclusion is FALSE,

        It is a trivial non sequitur.

    1. S. Meyer and Oldman beat me to it, though they are probably more sorry for the ‘civilian’ deaths in the rescue operation whereas I don’t give a s*** for them.

      1. Young – while I’m not in favor of any deaths, the distinction between civilian and combatant is blurred in Gaza as reflected in your quotation marks around civilian. When Hamas committed its unspeakable evil on 10/7, the civilians in Gaza were jubilant, and polls consistently show super-majorities supporting Hamas and its actions. There is a fundamental satanic evil at the core of Gaza society, with the way Hamas educates the young to hate Jews, and that hatred and corruption then pervade their entire society.

        1. Oldman–

          Even children were among the Oct 7 terrorists who crossed into Israel. And, yes, their entire society is drenched in evil. They hate Life itself

          1. Some more details are coming out, like that the person holding some of the hostages was a Gazan “journalist” who writes for Al Jazeera.

            1. Oldman–

              Yes, I saw that. Fortunately he was killed. I am waiting to see if UN people were also holding hostages.

        2. Yes, the distinction between civilian and combatant is blurred in gaza. This is one of the reasons that the “rules of war” require that combatants wear uniforms, and that those involved in the war out of uniform are treated as criminals. not combatants.

          But the issues go beyond that. Civilians have no absolute protection in war. The rules of proportionality require that combatnats do not deliberately target civilians – though that has routinely been ignored – in WWII the Allies deliberately targeted the housing of civilians engaged in war production.

          Regardless, the rules of war do NOT require protecting civilians. When there is a legitimately military target that might produce civilian casualties, the rules of war require that the civilian casualties are limited by the military value of the target. So taking out a ranking Hamas leader would justify many many many civilian casualties.

          There were allegedly large numbers of civilian casualties int he recent Hostage rescue.
          When an enemy choses to keep hostages among large numbers of civilian’s – it is the enemy that puts those civilians at risk.

          Biden is engaged in separate negotiations to get US hostages released.
          While no one should trust the Biden will strike a deal that will not prove to be a disaster, that is still the priority of US presidents.
          It is Biden’s duty to get US hostages freed. While he is supposed to be barred from negotiating with terrorists to do so – because that merely encourages future hostage taking. Biden is fully authorized to use US military force to recover US hostages.

          Regardless – who here thinks that Biden will manage any hostage recovery that is not a disaster ?

      2. though they are probably more sorry for the ‘civilian’ deaths in the rescue operation whereas I don’t give a s*** for them.”

        Young, is sorry the right word? I understand what you are saying, but sorry means that some type of error was made going into the operation where civilians died. No, I am not sorry, but I am angry that Hamas leaders and many of the Gazan people created a situation where Gazan citizens had to die.

        How sorry should I be for that Hamas error? I’m not sure since Gazans knew the hostages were there, and many are involved in supporting Hamas.

        If you attack my family trying to kill them, don’t think I am sorry for making sure you died first. I may not like killing, but like Israel, I have a right to protect myself.

        2. Even if Gazans were actually complete innocents, The rules of war prohibt there being targeted, they do NOT prohibit their deaths in the course of accomplishing legitimate military goals – such as rescuing hostages. or Taking out Hamas leaders or fighters.

          The rules of war presume that the priorities of a nation at war are the defeat of the enemy, minimizing casualties to its own soldiers and civilians, that minimizing the casualties of enemy civilians is a very lower priority. They may not be targeted – though Hamas clearly ignored that. But they may be killed as part of accomplishing normal miliary objectives.

  17. S Meyer you beat me to it! OT on a slow day, some details on how Israel pulled off its amazing rescue of four hostages yesterday:

    https://allisrael.com/operation-arnon-all-the-details-about-the-heroic-operation-that-freed-4-israeli-hostages-from-the-heart-of-gaza?utm_source=convertkit&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%27Operation%20Arnon%27%3A%20All%20the%20details%20about%20the%20heroic%20operation%20that%20freed%204%20Israeli%20hostages%20from%20the%20heart%20of%20Gaza%20-%2014121797

    1. In the interest of links and getting people to click on them, avoid extraneous characters. Links can be very dangerous on some devices, and the less extraneous characters in the link, the less likely it will be redirected to dangerous sites

      The relevant characters in a web address are those characters prior to the “question mark” (?)

      e.g. https://allisrael.com/operation-arnon-all-the-details-about-the-heroic-operation-that-freed-4-israeli-hostages-from-the-heart-of-gaza

      Characters including the question mark (?) and thereafter are all extraneous, not necessary and are for tracking purposes only. They can also be used by nefarious software to redirect the user to dangerous websites. If you want people to click on your link, supply a link that is clean, stripped of tracking info and direct

      FYI

      2. Estovir, thank you for explaining something I need to familiarize myself with. In the past, ATS made note of things tagged onto the actual address but apparently didn’t know that what was tagged on was more than extra words.

        How does it work, or does it only tell the initial source the origination of a recent link to the site? How does it pose a danger to one’s computer if half of the link is unnecessary? Finally, is a ? ever part of an address so that if not included, the address will be incomplete?

        Thanks. I need a remedial course in computer science. I learned very early in the home computer age that I should stay away from computers.

        When I bought my first Apple, I learned the device and language, wrote several programs, and put a portion of my business under its control in ten days. Then, I closed the computer because I was addicted. I was late to work, came home early, stopped eating properly and stopped almost all aspects of my life.

        I had to choose between my job and a portion of my life or the computer. If I were younger and without a family, I might have switched careers and entered the industry. To this day, I refuse to do more than follow directions to complete the necessary tasks, paying others to do things I can do for myself.

    1. @ S. Meyer–

      Thanks for the Douglas Murray interview. He’s brilliant. Though everything he said resonated with me I was impressed by this:

      “the thing that strikes me, struck me, is that they were proud of what they were doing. Now that is something that, that an awful lot of people have done an awful lot of evil things. I’ve very rarely seen one so proud of their evil as they’re carrying it out.”

      I mentioned the same here early on when comments compared these monsters to Nazis. I said they were worse than Nazis who at least had enough of humanity to try to hide their crimes. These people, by contrast, revel in them and broadcast them. No wonder the rest of the Muslim world doesn’t want them.

      1. “I’ve very rarely seen one so proud of their evil as they’re carrying it out.”

        Young people have to see *radical* Islam for what it is: evil and barbaric. These “monsters are Nazis,” and there is little doubt when one looks at the history. But there is more. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem made a pact with Hitler to exterminate all the Jews. But more than that, he believed that all territory under the control of the Ottoman Empire was Muslim forever. His student Arafat thought the same thing, which meant there could not be a two-state solution because to fulfill these dreams, not one inch of land ever captured and ruled by the Ottoman Empire could be owned by other than Muslim territory. Some believe that if a Muslim says a specific prayer in your Church, that Church is forever Muslim territory.

        1. Muslims seem to be taking back Spain as well. The West needs to wake up.

          1. Young, what about Britain?

            Low fertility rate combined with poor people’s desire to move themselves and their culture to the West can mean the demise of the west.

            1. Pretty much all of western Europe is committing suicide through low fertility combined with open migration of millions of Muslims, who have high fertility rates. Western civ in Europe is all but dead unless they somehow manage to reverse course. There is a fledgling populist movement starting to push in that direction but it may be too little too late. It seems a new Dark Age is about to fall.

  19. Now we’re getting real paid trolls – please, Darren, do something about these spam posts.

  20. S­t­a­r­t w­o­r­k­i­n­g f­r­o­m h­o­m­e! G­r­e­a­t w­o­r­k f­o­r-E­v­er, ­S­t­a­y a­t H­o­m­e M­o­m­s O­R a­n­y­o­n­e n­e­e­d­s­ a­n e­x­t­r­a i­n­c­o­m­e. G­e­t s­t­a­r­t­e­d. Y­o­u o­n­l­y n­e­e­d­ a bgh computer a­n­d a reliable c­o­m­p­u­t­e­r c­o­n­n­e­c­t­i­o­n­

    s­o d­o­n’t g­e­t l­a­t­e t­r­y……. https://aiboot2up22.blogspot.com/

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