The military has released figures showing record suicide rates that show more soldiers are dying by their own hand than those of the enemy. In just the Army alone, 24 soldiers are believed to have committed suicide in January. That is six times the number from 2008.
During the same period, all of the branches lost 16 U.S. combat deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq in January.
One official has described the findings as “terrifying.”
The Marines are also reporting an increase in suicides: 41 in 2008, up from 33 in 2007 and 25 in 2006, according to a Marines report.
For the full story, click here.
Thanks, Neocons.
To all our brave soldiers: Hang in there! If you are stressed and need help that the military isn’t providing, find someone, ANYONE to talk to about it. Suicide isn’t the answer. There are plenty of us who would willingly lend an ear or other assistance if needed. The horrors of war that may have brought you to this point were not your fault, but caused by being put into an untenable situation by evil men who hijacked the government and the military to make personal profit. We the People are not them. We the People understand and appreciate your sacrifice as much as We despise those who abused your sacrifices. Let Us help bring you back from the edge. We’ll walk back together. You joined the services to help We the People, not We the Corporate. Let We the People help you in your time of need. We are willing and indeed grateful to honor your duty and your lives by keeping you from becoming a collateral damage of an illegal and immoral war. But please don’t harm yourselves. There are those of us who love and respect you despite what you may have been forced to do by evil men. Don’t let THEM win. We the People don’t want your harm, but especially by your own hand. You are us. To seek your harm is to harm ourselves. If your mind is troubled, let us help you, brothers and sisters. Let us help you walk back into light to live free. But most importantly, let us help you live. If you are having problems finding someone to talk to locally, these people will help you.
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Or call 800-273-8255
This is a real victory for the terrorists.
Politicians need to stop using ‘the troops’ as a political prop and pissing away their lives on meaningless gestures. If a military solution is required it should be prosecuted quickly, violently, and with a clear plan off attack and withdrawal. Anyone who cares about this country should be disgusted with how poorly our soldiers are being treated by the government. The Feres Doctrine, shoddy workmanship done by contractors, unsanitary and overcrowded conditions in VA hospitals, refusing healthcare to wounded vets, rapes and assaults being brushed under the rug, private MERCENARIES making more money and being held above the law, lying to the families of the dead to make a PR coup, unending deployments that are extended again and again and again.
Finish it.
Then bring them Home.
Thats a load of bs. I dont know if you knew this or not buddah but the military is all volunteer. Since 9/11 everyone who joined the military did it knowing there was a good possibility they would be sent to Iraq or Afghanistan. So they VOLUNTEERED for this service, they werent forced to do anything. A large portion of the military believes what we are doing in Iraq is a good thing.
“the military is all volunteer”
And as such the government has a compelling responsibility to treat them as volunteers instead of treating them like second class citizens. Wanting to defend this country from the threats that face it is not agreeing to be sacrificed like a pawn in a politically and monetarily motivated war.
“they werent forced to do anything”
There have been several stories about recruitment officers using pressure tactics and threats to ‘encourage’ young men and women to enlist. No they didnt’ have their arm twisted or a gun put to their head but when you are fresh out of high school and an authority figure tells you that you HAVE to do something or else…
“A large portion of the military believes what we are doing in Iraq is a good thing.”
Agreed, and further they would also say that we’ve done a piss poor job of handling the followup or the political aspects of the war. Our troops kicked ass over there but we left them hanging in the breeze after the dust settled.
Buddha & Maskeptic thank-you for your posts.
Please Bring Them Home. Amen!
chris (like you’re fooling anyone),
I said nothing about conscription. I said “Get help if you’re suicidal, there are people willing to help.” If you have a problem with that, well, that about sums you up, sport.
CEJ,
You are most welcome. One lives to be of service.
Mas:
I agree with you on that, we should have kicked ass and then been done. There were a lot of lives wasted by trying to build a democracy in Iraq that will most probably end up not very democratic at all and an ally of Iran.
Its really quite a shame (thats probably not harsh enough)that young men would be asked to fight and then not being allowed to fight to win.
I think this just war theory that Bush believes in ends up not being very just to our soldiers.
A great majority of the people that i served with hold the same values as our former president. Republican, Christians who would very much disagree with many of the things that are said on this website. Who also enjoy watching “Faux News” as I believe you call it. These people who you refer to as “Neo-cons” serve their country so that you can hold the beliefs that you do. Buddah says these people should be removed from our society like a cancer.
chris:
“These people who you refer to as “Neo-cons” serve their country so that you can hold the beliefs that you do.”
************
I have no idea what this has to do with anything, but people you refer to as “liberals” also served their country so you could hold your “beliefs.” Ideology has little to do with courage or fitness to serve, and service to your country does not immunize your arguments from criticism. Gratitude has its limits.
I totally agree with you. The great thing about our country is that we are free to disagree. I come on this site quite often and see how buddah constantly degrades people, simply because they disagree with him. He just made a comment on my character in his last post, when the truth is he knows nothing about me. He uses this article about soldiers comiting suicide to somehow proves his point about “neo-cons”. I am pretty knew to this site, and enjoy the discourse. I know there are people who dont agree with many of my views, but i dont think that makes them an idiot.
Mespo:
that is an interesting question-how much gratitude do you/we owe our men and women in the military?
How much should we help them? Dose it depend on the type of war? If you are fighting for your country’s survival as we were in WWII arent you also fighting for your own benefit and so therefore no gratitude is needed. But say Vietnam where we asked young men to go to war for very undefined reasons isnt a higher level of gratitude required because of what we were asking of them – namely personal sacrifice to no good end?
Chris:
on this site if you believe as you do you are a presumed idiot until confirmed.
Be careful about mentioning PNAC they will crucify you, and also dont say that waterboarding may not actually be torture, they will go into paroxysms of disbelief.
be carefull little trollette their words may sting but their wit is dull.
Thanks for the heads up.
“Buddah says these people should be removed from our society like a cancer.”
What I said was Neocons like you should be excised from the body politic like a cancer and socially marginalized.
Let me clarify that for you. I so dislike distortion.
“Excised from the body politic like a cancer” as in “not allowed to vote or participate in governance or hold positions of authority or responsibility in any form”.
“Socially marginalized” as in “ridiculed like simple racists are for being socially unacceptable and primitive”.
Then we’ll educate your kind right out existence. It’ll take a generation or two, but soon you’ll be a social relic just like the Nazis. Yeah, just like Nazis, there might be a few of you zanies left hiding in the corners, but the damage you can do to society and the common good will be minimized. The FBI manages to keep a pretty tight lid on the Nazis and the KKK, I trust they have the skills to keep your lot from starting much trouble too.
Setting up camps is more your style. I’ll use my play book, thanks. And this also means your leaders pay DEARLY in prison time and forfeiture, their corporate masters stripped of their blood money and dissolved to rebuild the America you destroyed and attempt to make whole those whom you have so egregiously harmed – MADE EXAMPLE, a cautionary tale. And I think it should be a case of you can run but you can’t hide. Move your assets? We’ll come get them. Hide in Dubai or Saudi Arabia? We’ll come get you. Treason and war crimes merit more than a spanking.
I stand by that statement too.
If the children are pooping on the dinner table, it’s time to take away their toys and lock them in the closet until they learn to behave. I am a reflection of what happens when you make the adults get up out of the chair.
We the People want our country and Constitution back. That’s the team I’m on. Sleep tight knowing that, since I seem to have inspired some troll fear. It’s good that I think that the only time fear is a useful tool is when it’s used against evil men. Otherwise, I’d be like you Neocons. Instead, I can smell your fear like maple syrup over Manhattan.
It smells like . . . Justice.
It brings a big old smile to this face.
Buddha is truly laughing.
Directly at YOU.
Turtle:
That is a good question you raise about the nature of the conflict and the amount of gratitude owed. I think we owe gratitude for sacrifice, but what if that sacrifice was in an “unjust” war or war of aggression? Those are difficult questions to answer, and I think it worthy of more thought and discussion.
Chris:
“buddah constantly degrades people, simply because they disagree with him.”
**********
I think buddha is passionate and sometimes a little effusive with his criticism but never degrading. I find it no character flaw to refuse to suffer fools quietly lest you let them propagate with their misconceptions and silliness. All in all buddha is a credit to the blog and I find his comments thoughtful and sincere.
While we’re discussing disciplining the children, I’m glad I got the IMPORTANT post up before you trolls showed up, btw. This is a thread about suicide rates in our troops. PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP. Not more Neocon trollery. By dragging this shit in HERE, well, I think that sums up your respect for the troops. Thanks for continuing to prove points.
mespo,
Thank you. I hold you in equally high esteem.
I dont have to prove to you the respect i have for my fellow soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen. I stood beside these men and fought in what i believe was a just war that will eventually provide the country of Iraq with some form of democracy. These men i served with deserve the utmost, unquestioned gratitude, as they not only served their country, but their fellow Americans. They decided to serve their country and try to affect change, rather than blog about it.
mmmm….maple syrup
Buddah says these people should be removed from our society like a cancer.”
What I said was Neocons like you should be excised from the body politic like a cancer and socially marginalized. ANY DISENSION OR DIFFERING VIEWPOINT IS A THREAT
Let me clarify that for you. I so dislike distortion.
“Excised from the body politic like a cancer” as in “not allowed to vote or participate in governance or hold positions of authority or responsibility in any form”. CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ARE ACCEPTABLE FOR INDIVIDUALS DEEMED ACCEPTABLE TO THE STATE
“Socially marginalized” as in “ridiculed like simple racists are for being socially unacceptable and primitive”. WHEN NO ARGUMENT IS AVAILABLE MARGINALIZE THE OTHER PERSON
Then we’ll educate your kind right out existence. It’ll take a generation or two, but soon you’ll be a social relic just like the Nazis. Yeah, just like Nazis, there might be a few of you zanies left hiding in the corners, but the damage you can do to society and the common good will be minimized. The FBI manages to keep a pretty tight lid on the Nazis and the KKK, I trust they have the skills to keep your lot from starting much trouble too. IN ALL THINGS USE THE POWER OF THE STATE TO CONTROL UNDESIREABLES
Setting up camps is more your style. FDR WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE 20th CENTURY THAT SET UP CAMPS FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS AGAIN USE THE POWER OF THE STATE TO CONTROL
I’ll use my play book, thanks. And this also means your leaders pay DEARLY in prison time and forfeiture, their corporate masters stripped of their blood money and dissolved to rebuild the America you destroyed and attempt to make whole those whom you have so egregiously harmed – MADE EXAMPLE, a cautionary tale. AGAIN NOTICE HOW HE IS GOING TO USE THE POWER OF THE STATE TO MAKE OUR LEADERS PAY. HOW TO DETERMINE WHO THOSE LEADERS ARE? AGAIN THE POWER OF THE STATE AGAINST THE INDIVIDUAL WHOEVER HE THINKS IS GUILTY. THIS IS ARBITRARY AND TYPICAL OF LEFTIST THOUGHT
And I think it should be a case of you can run but you can’t hide. Move your assets? We’ll come get them. Hide in Dubai or Saudi Arabia? We’ll come get you. Treason and war crimes merit more than a spanking. AGAIN THE POWER OF THE STATE TO TAKE RIGHTFUL POSSESIONS FROM SOMEONE. NOTICE THERE IS NO MENTION OF A TRIAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL GUARANTEES, JUST MOB JUSTICE.
I stand by that statement too.
If the children are pooping on the dinner table, it’s time to take away their toys and lock them in the closet until they learn to behave. I am a reflection of what happens when you make the adults get up out of the chair. THE VIETNAMESE DID THIS THEY ARE CALLED REEDUCATION CAMPS AGAIN THE POWER OF THE STATE OR THE COLLECTIVE AGAINST THE INDIVIDUAL
We the People want our country and Constitution back. THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO INTERPRET IT ANYWAY THEY WANT TO JUSTIFY THEIR AMBITIONS AS OUTLINES ABOVE
That’s the team I’m on. Sleep tight knowing that, since I seem to have inspired some troll fear. It’s good that I think that the only time fear is a useful tool is when it’s used against evil men. Otherwise, I’d be like you Neocons. Instead, I can smell your fear like maple syrup over Manhattan. I THINK FEAR OF THIS MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND RATIONAL IF I EVER HEAR TALK LIKE THIS IN A NATIONAL FORUM FROM A NATIONAL FIGURE I WILL LEAVE THE UNITED STATES JUST AS
THE SMARTER JEWS DID IN THE 1930′s
It smells like . . . Justice. (EVIL)
Dissent isn’t the issue. That’s been established. Criminal and anti-social behavior is. Nice try at distortion too, but what I originally posted was CRYSTAL CLEAR. Thanks for more maple-ly goodness. Freak out some more. Make my weekend.
‘chris writes:
‘…I am pretty knew to this site…’
—–
Hah!
p.s. Psssst- You left off the best part!
‘…It brings a big old smile to this face.
Buddha is truly laughing. Directly at YOU.’
Run along now, Bartlebee/CroMagnumMan/Waynebro,GaylordFocker,Bron98
-and take all your other little clones with you-like a good little boy…
The shoddy treatment of our military before, during, and after their efforts toward this unnecessary, poorly planned, unwanted, and, therefore, unrealistic ‘gift of democracy’ is deplorable.
Given what we know about the stress of combat and the number of deployments these men and women have been forced to endure, wait times for medical care and necessary follow up is inexcusable.
Military med mal, anyone?
I wonder how many of the Iraqis that voted this weekend think this “unrealistic gift of democracy” is deplorable.
You never did answer me about Iraq not being broken and unstable before being illegally invaded, chris.
Democracy doesn’t come from the end of a gun.
Buddha:
thats about what every thing you have said points to.
PattyC:
Chris is not me. Go back to changing bed pans and giving rectals.
Not being broken and unstable before being illegally invaded?
How is it that you can turn a blind eye to all of the Iraqi people that saddam killed while he was in power? That was illegal. Or how about Saddam invading Kuwait in the first Gulf war. The only reason they werent unstable, is because they didnt have a voice. Dissent was punishable by death. Is that illegal?
PattyC:
there is your proof both posts are at 5:45 pm. you have substituted TDS (troll derangement syndrome) for BDS.
Iraq didn’t attack us, chris. Saudis operating out of Afghanistan did. Iraq’s internal affairs were none of our business.
Bron98 1, February 6, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Buddha:
thats about what every thing you have said points to.
What? Suppressing dissent? I’ll say it AGAIN.
Buddha Is Laughing 1, February 6, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Dissent isn’t the issue. That’s been established. Criminal and anti-social behavior is.
I can’t make it any clearer than that. On that issue, I’ve said what I meant and meant what I said. Your lack of comprehension of the raw truth of what you have read is of only tangential concern to me. Learning is painful. Suck it up, buttercup.
But please keep on freaking out. I am just laughing my ass off and enjoying a fine ale.
I believe Saddam was a legitimat threat to democracy. If the way he treated his people wasnt an example of that, I dont know what is. If that is your argument, then i suppose you believe that Iran should be able to make a nuke since its non of our business.
Chris:
“How is it that you can turn a blind eye to all of the Iraqi people that saddam killed while he was in power? That was illegal. Or how about Saddam invading Kuwait in the first Gulf war. The only reason they werent unstable, is because they didnt have a voice. Dissent was punishable by death. Is that illegal?”
*********
Those are all wonderful reasons why he people of Iraq should have risen up against their oppressor. Now, tell me why one US soldier had to shed his/her blood to preserve, protect and defend the nation of Iraq?
Here’s what one wily old politician explained to us about foreign entanglements some 200 years ago:
“Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?
It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense, but in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.”
–George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
We didn’t go to war because of a “threat to democracy”. We went to war because a foreign power attacked us in our sovereign territory. That foreign power was Saudi Arabia operating out of Afghanistan. Frankly, you reek of jingoism.
Here, let me help you with that . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism
In that case then we should have just let Hitler wipe all the Jews off the face of the earth.
is it lying oops flying dog?
gd if you cant obfuscate shit, if I am ever in need of a lawyer I hope they can postulate like you.
dont know no neocons engaged in anti social behaviour, Bill Kristol is a puss, Rich Lowry is a puss, Fred Barnes the same. All pretty nice stable guys I should think you would like your victims easy to handle.
Whatever you want to call it. Imagine if France took that stance in the revolutionary war. We would probably still belong to england.
Hitler was an aggressor threatening DIRECTLY our allies. And we didn’t get into WWII because of Hitler, genius, although we eventually would have had no choice. I’m sure all those who died at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 appreciate how your ignorance honors their service and memory.
Face it boys. You’re out flanked.
Nice freak out there by the way Bron. That verged on gibberish.
Chris:
we did not go to war to save jews. FDR did not care if Jews were persecuted as evidenced by his refusal to let a boat load of them land in America in June of 1939. See MS St. Louis.
I didnt say we entered WW II because of Hitler.
I honored their service by serving.
So youre saying that even if Hitler was only mutilating the jews that lived in Germany that it would have been nobodys business?
weak weak weak
You better step it up. None of that merits substantive response.
Hitler would have been our business the instant they landed in Great Britain, sport. You assume everyone knew about the camps a priori. That’s not the accurate history.
If you want to discuss genocide and the responsibilities of free nations, that’s an entirely different discussion. You’ll probably fare no better.
there were rumors of the camps at a pretty early point in the war, I dont think anyone believed the rumors as can well be imagined at that time in world history.
Rumors are not verified facts. The actual scale of what Germany was up to was not known until camps were actually entered by Allied forces.
It doesnt really matter because i believe we did act responsibly and you arent going to change my mind with your giberish. I believe Saddam needed to be removed, as i believe our little Koren friend needs to be removed, as does ahmadinejad. They all seek to do us harm, and its naive to think otherwise.
Jingoism again! The political view of violent sociopaths. Excellent. At least your consistent.
I try
And knowing a threat and dealing with it and starting a war are not the same thing. I have to say, I really doubt you served, chris. Our strategic and tactical training is better than that. The best way to deal with an adversary is the one that reduces your troops and resources the LEAST. That’s basic. Sun Tzu knew that and I’m pretty sure the USMC knows that too.
in a perfect world one takes a baseball bat and beats hell out of the taunting bully before he has the chance to do the same to you. North Korea should already be a part of a unified Korea and Iran should be a secular state. But our foreign policy is America last and the law of moral equivalence.
We now have, thanks to GW, a nuclear armed Iran with ballistic capabilities.
blah blah blah
You are starting to bore me. Violence as a solution to everything is a perfect example of sociopathic and psychopathic behavior. You aren’t helping your case for not being removed from political process and decision making any more more than you’ve previously helped disprove the criminality of those you support. In fact, you make what I originally said sound better and better. You’re visibly mentally defective.
Doubting my service doesnt mean i didnt serve. I could honestly care less if you really think i served. We are not trained on how not to and how to start wars. We are trained how to fight them. That has nothing to do with how i feel we should handle Iran or Korea.
blah blah blah
Bron98 1, February 6, 2009 at 5:48 pm
PattyC:
‘there is your proof both posts are at 5:45 pm. you have substituted TDS (troll derangement syndrome) for BDS.’
—–
Nice try.
So you bring up more than one search engine at the same time
- ‘Yahoo-whooooo’…
Ok, childrens. That’s enough play time with Buddha. It’s time to go.
Violence usually works best when dealing with thugs.
Bron98:
“on this site if you believe as you do you are a presumed idiot until confirmed.
Be careful about mentioning PNAC they will crucify you, and also dont say that waterboarding may not actually be torture, they will go into paroxysms of disbelief.”
I’m your huckleberry.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/02/03/going-for-the-acapulco-gold-phelps-may-be-criminally-charged-over-pot-pictures/#comment-38076
BobEsq:
you will have to do better than John Dean. I did not even bother to look at that. Dean is not a conservative and is a hand maiden for the left.
There are definitely serious issues of authoritarianism on both the left and the right. The constitution is in a shambles but it was not Bush that did it, he inherited it from a long line of bad decisions. What was the first one Marbury vs. Madison? Didnt that enhance the power of the court tremendously? Wasnt there some worry at the beginning that the judicial branch would become to powerful with no real limitations on their powers?
Bron98
Try it: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
“I think what I have found is rather important to the survival of American democracy,” Professor Altemeyer.
This is a further link Bob,Esq. provided, Bron98 can’t be bothered with.
CCD:
Actually I am reading it now. Rather interesting. In the sense that a good many of the ideas expressed on this web site seem to come from Prof. Altemeyer. Buddha must have that book in front of him when he writes. I also took that test and scored 77. In doing the read it seems that the author is trying to elicit an authoritarian response from the conservative side of the aisle and therefore prove his point that conservatives are authoritarian. The questions he asks are generaly leading and I found myself answering with either a 0, a +4 or a -4 I think 2 of the questions were +2 and +3.
I think a better way to ask those questions would have been to take out the personal morality stuff. For example I do not think that chidren should be brought up by single parents or by 2 parents of the same sex unless there is good reason, not because I think that a single man or woman would be a bad parent or that 2 men or 2 women wouldnt be loving parents but I think that children need both the male and female influence. (would I make a law to that effect -no)
What I am trying to say is that some of those questions cannot be answered properly and lead to a predetermined conclusion, namely that people on the right are authoritarian and that people on the left are virtuous by way of questioning authority.
And the rambling letter about getting rid of the bill of rights, who in their right mind would even think about doing that? I personally know of no conservatives that would even suggest that and I would be horrified at the suggestion. I do admit that there are some on the right that are definitely in the totalitarian mode – Tom Delay comes to mind as does John McCain, I heard him on the radio one day in commity about a radio station/company, clear channel I think and called his office and told them I thought McCain was a Nazi for some of his views as he expressed them in the hearing. Needless to say I did not support him in 2008 as I think he has strong dictatorial tendencies.
Its easy to agree with a personal proposition held by another and harder to recognize the possibility of an inaccuracy in that belief if validated (in your mind) by another.
Holy snikies! I don’t know where to start. However, I will start with Bron. Bron you stated that “North Korea should already be a part of a unified Korea and Iran should be a secular state.” If I understand that thinking, all countries must comply to America’s idea of Democracy and America’s idea of keeping religion and government separate, or they are fair game to be attacked by the United States. With all due respect, that sounds arrogant. Actually, it is arrogant. Every country has the right to do whatever they want to as long as they are not endangering their neighbors or attacking their neighbors.
Iraq was not endangering us or its neighbors when we attack. Just because they attacked Kuwait in the 90′s doesn’t give us the green light to attack them in 2003. Just because Sadamm was an abusive dictator, that does not give us license to attack his country and kill hundred of thousands of Iraqi civilians. If that was the standard, we would be very busy throughout the world. Under your standard we should be attacked by other countries for our destructive attack and occupation of a country that did not attack us and was not harboring Al-Qaida or WMD’s.
Chris,
As I have stated before, thank your for your service. As a Marine, you know that a wasted Marine is a tragedy. When we attack Iraq under false pretenses, it puts Marines at risk over a lie. I know I would not want my Marine son to be put in harms way in the wrong country. Even the head of the Marines wanted to pull the Marines out of Iraq and put them in Afghanistan where he believed the real fight against the people who attacked us was at. But George W. would not allow it. I think it is time that you realize that you were backing a lier and a war criminal. Fortunately, the country also realized that Bush was a felon and threw the Republicans out of control before they could lead us down the path.
Mespo and Buddha,
Good work!
chris:
“We are trained how to fight them. That has nothing to do with how i feel we should handle Iran or Korea.”
***********
Right you are chris. That is why we have civilian control over our dogs of war. “Grunts” are fine foot soldiers, but their policy making role is quite limited. McArthur was a fine soldier and better administrator. So it’s obvious that at a higher level, soldiers are trained to both fight a war, stop a war, and win a peace. You have about 1/10 of the puzzle with your training and experience, let the brass handle the rest.
That is absolutely not why Gen. Conway wanted to go to Afghanistan. The marines mission is not as an occupier or a police force as they were being used, that is more the mission of the army. He didnt want to make this a permanent practice. He did however want to put the marines back in the fight. Ive personally met the Commandant and have heard him, speak many times. Not once did I ever hear him say anything but good things about what we were doing for the people of Iraq. I was a security officer for a General while i was stationed in Iraq, and was present for many candid conversations between GOs. What you are saying, is not what they were saying to each other about what was going on in Iraq.
Chris,
Excuse me for not having the inside story on what generals are telling each other in private. I am just a peon and have to rely on the public record. You know, official facts. If the general didn’t want it on the record, he wouldn’t have said it. And by the way, we have done some good things for the Iraqis. However, that doesn’t allow us to kill thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians. As we mentioned to you in an earlier thread, the Iraqi’s don’t think we should be there.
What he said was that he wanted to get the marines in the fight. He said nothing about putting the marines in Afghanistan so we could fight the real people who attacked us on 9/11. Thats not what he believes, thats what you believe.
Like i said to you, i experienced high amounts of gratitude from the Iraqis
Chris,
Do you have a clue what a High RWA you carry?
Sincerest thanks to Bob,ESQ, for these related links.
http://writ.lp.findlaw.com/dean/20070905.html
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf
The final link is short book by Bob Altemeyer, it explains your condition and position.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/31/terror/main4694266.shtml
Here is exactly what he said.
Chris,
Please take a look at the link to Bob Altemeyer. It is currently awaiting moderation.
Ive been reading it. Thanks.
Chris,
Let’s be exact. You said you met thousands of Iraqi’a personally and they were grateful. You will excuse me if I don’t believe that hyperbole. Here is a quote from your friend the general, “The time is right for Marines in general terms to leave Iraq,” said Marine Corps Commandant James Conway.
That war has become largely a nation-building mission rather than the pitched fighting in which the Marine Corps excels, Conway said”. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_re_us/marines_iraq That is what I said he said. You will see in this military.com article, he was trying to get his marines out as early as 2007. http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,152377,00.html. What these articles say are almost exactly what I stated earlier so I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe the next time you and the General are having one of your private conversations, have him call me.
Chris,
I tried responding but for some reason my comment is awaiting moderation. It may be due to the two links in my response. I hope it gets release in time for you to see it.
Chris, the exchanges on this topic illustrate one of the problems created by the way the Bush administration has sold the Iraq war. Opposition to our policies in the mideast has been treated as opposition to the armed forces. Everyone who has ever criticized the war has been accused of not supporting the troops. As asinine as that accusation is, people inevitably believe it.
Now, for some realpolitik, if you will. George Bush and the neoconservatives who formulated his policies determined early on that we needed to promote democratic rule in the Middle East. We determined to begin that task in Iraq because everyone hated Saddam (with good reason) and we could use 9-11 and terrorism as cover. There were two problems with this plan. First, the Middle East is not Europe. The peoples of the Middle East have traditional societies which for religious, ethnic and social reasons are tribal and clan based. The concept of democracy as we understand it is based upon historical western values and political philosophy. It cannot be exported like manufactured goods to whatever region of the world we think needs it. Second, Iraq was a foolish target for an equally foolish plan. Saddam was actually doing us a favor. His was the only secular government in that part of the world and he was able to keep Iran busy. Iraq could only be held together by a strong and strict central government, something Saddam understood quite well.
We sent in troops on a mission and they accomplished it promptly and professionally. We then left them there because we had no clue what to do next. Regardless of what everyone wants to say about the wonders of elections in Iraq, what we will wind up with there is an Islamic Republic that we will not like. There has already been significant ethnic cleansing. Christians are no longer welcome in many parts of the country, and the status of women in the “new” Iraq is arguably worse than it was under Saddam.
It is not our job to eliminate repressive governments around the world. And even if it were, there would be places with a higher priority than Iraq. The point is that our policy toward Iraq is a failure because our goals were impossible to achieve. When the administration belatedly came to understand that, they simply changed the goals. Now instead of a democratic Iraq we simply want a stable Iraq. That’s wonderful. But Iraq was stable thousands of deaths and a trillion dollars ago.
No one denigrates the work done by American soldiers. Young men and women from this country have performed courageously in Iraq and have done their best to assist the Iraqi people. But the leaders of this country have once again failed the military by sending it on an ill-conceived mission.
Bron98
“you will have to do better than John Dean. I did not even bother to look at that. Dean is not a conservative and is a hand maiden for the left.”
I’ll have to do better than a Goldwater conservative? Do you have any idea how many informal fallacies of logic you racked up in your statement above? Why engage in argument if you’ve already made up your mind?
“There are definitely serious issues of authoritarianism on both the left and the right.”
Authoritarianism requires members to be in lock-step. Had you read John Dean, you’d be familiar with his argument that getting the left to act in an authoritarian manner would be tantamount to ‘herding cats.’
“The constitution is in a shambles but it was not Bush that did it,”
I’m not blaming Bush for the deterioration of the the constitution during the past two centuries; I simply despise him for using it as a urinal puck for the eight years of his administration.
“[Bush] inherited it from a long line of bad decisions. What was the first one Marbury vs. Madison? Didnt that enhance the power of the court tremendously?”
Indeed; Article III contains no specific power of judicial review.
“Wasnt there some worry at the beginning that the judicial branch would become to powerful with no real limitations on their powers?”
Sure there was; and Hamilton led the charge.
In fact, if Hamilton were alive on December 9, 2000, he would have literally beaten the crap out of Antonin Scalia and crammed a copy of his dissent in ‘Minestretta’ down his perfidious f’n throat for being the fifth and deciding vote to issue a Stay in violation of the separation of powers doctrine.
Yet you feel compelled to apologize and spin tripe on behalf of an administration motivated primarily by greed, ill will and utter contempt for the rule of law; much like the character Little Bill Daggett in the film ‘Unforgiven.’ BTW, considering just how hopeless your right wing apologist agenda is, you’d be wise to recall the moral & ending of that film.
Will Munny: “Any man don’t wanna get killed better clear on out the back.”
After all; “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.”
Wow!
Turlee’s bringin’ the heat! Mike A, Bob, raff, mespo, CCD, thanks for the entertaining read. Bravo! I applaud you all. It is making my coffee sweeter and my slight hangover vanish. If one is judged by the company he keeps, I am truly honored. You boys administer a right proper spanking to misbehaving children! Pun intended.
Buddha:
You and Mike A have been on a roll lately. Bob and I have to pick up the pace. Rafflaw is in his usual spot on the rail with CCD moving up fast. I predict a photo finish.
mespo,
Thank you. May I say the quality of your posts and those of Bob are an example to us all. I’ll have to say, I am a little proud of Maple Syrup Over Manhattan. It felt good to write it. I even liked reading it – an unusual statement as I am my own harshest critic. But I shouldn’t be surprised. One rises to the level of those who elevate him.
Buddha,
The Maple Syrup Over Manhattan was excellent. I also commend Bob,Esq. for his John Dean seminar for our good friend Bron98. I know I have said it before, but it still amazes me that the Von Trolls can spew so much with so little effect. Here’s to a troll free weekend!
BobEsq:
I read some of Dr. Altmeyers work, my opinion is that the reason he dosent publish it is because it would get shot down by serious intellectuals. He posts it surupticiously on a web site to be accessed by left wingers to be used as “serious” argument for denigration of conservatives by people witout any real scientific backround. If he had the balls he would publish and go through peer and critical review, but that is not what this study is for.
And BobEsq. a question for you:
I am going to plant a tree, should I feel good about myself? What have I done? Nothing realy except plant a tree, but it is environmentaly good and my intention is to do good work. But I have planted that tree in front of my neighbors window ruining his view, I did not mean to do this I wanted to plant a tree but in the planting of the tree I have brought about a bad result for my neighbor, should I still feel good about myself because of my action?
Should I take the tree down or should I leave it up (the tree is on my property and there are no zoning or environmental prohibitions and that is another argument)?
Inaccurate characterization. Demonstrated misunderstanding of what constitutes “publishing” in the context of academia and the scope of distribution possible via the internet versus the traditional models. Ad hominem, goes to the man, not the merit of his observation and argument.
F-
At least you are keeping the grading easy enough to do on breaks. Thanks for the assist.
Buddha:
you are right I do not know whether he has “balls” in the figurative sense obviously he has balls in the literal sense.
I made a post about his argument above last night.
Buddha – observational skills C-
ps I dont give D’s or F’s to cerebellarly chalenged individuals as there is no sense.
Only problem in this scenario?
Grades from proven morons and threats to society mean nothing.
Appeal to baseless authority. The ability to critique requires critical reasoning ability.
F–
You are now on double secret academic probation, like all the other Delta pledges – most of whom are good guys excepting present company. You’re just not as funny. Well . . . not in the “ha-ha” sense anyway.
So step it up, buttercup. Your nanny nanny boo boo is showing. I’m back out to the yard now. Ask mom if you and the other trollseys can play outside. It’s good for you. Oxygen and sunshine are good for brain function. I’m sure they’ll take the padlock off the basement door if you beg long enough.
buddha:
I have a sweet tooth too, and here’s a little ode to buddha and his ” Maple Syrup Over Manhattan”:
Buddha, Love the visual on your little “catch phrase.”
And a thousand pardons for my not so “catchy” bad pun,
But our trolls seem to exist merely to cut and paste.
Too bad when thinking on your own is so much more fun!
mespo:
I dont see much original thought in here from the left either, maybe once in awhile when you get after, as you call them, trolls.
I hope you appreciate the oxymoronity of my handle, liberal jackass would have had a certain congruence, dont you think?
Buddha and Mespo,
i don’t think the trolls would get any grade from. From reading their posts, it is obvious that they haven’t done any homework and haven’t been to class. Maybe an incomplete would be an accurate grade.
ConservativeJackass:
Well, I think some of it is pretty original. Very few Einsteins and Newtons around here and Hawking hasn’t made his appearance yet but we’re hopeful. About the best a blog can do is serve as a cyber debating session, and allow arguments to whither or prevail on their own merits. I think we do that rather well, hence our popularity with the opposite point of view. Nobody likes to sit around with folks agreeing all the time. No fun. I think everybody learns when everybody participates, and for all our posturing we usually acknowledge that none of our company has all the answers — with the possible exception of our host, whom we universally respect for his thoughts, but especially for putting up with us.
Bron98:
BobEsq:
“I read some of Dr. Altmeyers work, my opinion is that the reason he dosent publish it is because it would get shot down by serious intellectuals. He posts it surupticiously on a web site to be accessed by left wingers to be used as “serious” argument for denigration of conservatives by people witout any real scientific backround. If he had the balls he would publish and go through peer and critical review, but that is not what this study is for.”
Dear Non Responsive:
Apparently you have the attention span of a parrot; seeing you’re far more focused on maintaining message discipline than even paying attention to who you’re addressing.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/02/06/terrifying-report-more-soldiers-dying-from-suicide-than-combat/#comment-38176
“I am going to plant a tree, should I feel good about myself?”
Gee, that’s a tough one. Is it a decision tree?
“What have I done? Nothing realy except plant a tree, but it is environmentaly good and my intention is to do good work.”
You’ve also answered your rhetorical question.
“But I have planted that tree in front of my neighbors window ruining his view, I did not mean to do this I wanted to plant a tree but in the planting of the tree I have brought about a bad result for my neighbor, should I still feel good about myself because of my action?
Should I take the tree down or should I leave it up (the tree is on my property and there are no zoning or environmental prohibitions and that is another argument)?”
First of all, per following anything resembling the rules of argumentation…. What’s the weather like on your planet?
Second, if you really must know, you may want to run a title search, checking for any scenic easements or declarations of covenants and restrictions running with the land, etc., to be sure you have the option of keeping your precious tree.
Have a nice day.
mespo!
Thank you for the lovely gift! It is most appreciated.
raff,
You have a point, sir.
Upon further review, the grade rendered is
INCOMPLETE
Bob, Esq.
The secret plan is to plant a grove of decision trees at Regent University.
Do you 2 Morons believe this drivel is what Professor Turley had in mind for HIS blog? Get a life.
Hey, MDTurley TROLL,
If the real JT has a problem, he can
1) Ask any regular to do as he wishes. We’re polite. We comply to our hosts requests.
2) Shut it down. He can end this all with a stroke of a key.
3) Publicly denounce us.
Since he has done none of these, it is logic that dictates he does indeed approve or at best (for your purposes) is indifferent.
If YOU don’t like it, well, that’d be YOUR PROBLEM. The internet’s like a television. Change the channel if you don’t like it. But JT’s a big boy. He can run his own blog. You don’t like how he does it? Start your own or don’t visit.
The logic above is self-evident.
Who was that who needed to get a life again?
As you pointed out, it is HIS blog.
Budda,
His blog, not yours, you need to make your point and move on.
Or is it your intent to dominate EVERY discussion?
Prof Turley is not inclined to start censoring posts, but I cannot help but assume he is dismayed as I am, at the domination of the forum.
JT has not the time nor the inclination to monitor every post, so you take that to be tacit approval?
Myself, I have no problem with the content just the volume and the VOLUME
MDTurley:
i have to agree with Buddha on this one, let Prof. Turley do his own talking.
While I dont agree with one thing (well maybe one) Buddha has said his comments are interesting and give me a different point of view they also challenge my opinions and give me many things to think about. He is generally a pain in the ass but he is thoughtful.
Buddha I know you dont want or need my help but as a troll who has been severly pissed on I wanted to have my views known for whatever they are worth.
Bron,
We can agree on this then. It is a good point to agree on even if we agree on nothing else.
It just goes to show you, Finnagle’s Law still applies.
“The perversity of the universe tends toward the maximum.”
Md
Thanks for the condemnation. Or were you referring to one of the above posters?
messpo727272, BIL, rafflaw, Bob, Esq. None of which I ever find dull!
Drivel hhmm… really the only carelessness I see is emanating from you thinking you know exactly what is tolerable and what is not. I don’t know what Professor Turley had in mind when he opened this site other than to be inclusive to opposing views maybe?
MD if you could loosen your grip on the scepter you seem to be throttling, you might come off as less of a killjoy.
“I cannot help but assume he is dismayed as I am, at the domination of the forum,” I’ve always thought conversation was competitive. The most interesting gets the most energy, this thread is about soldiers dying from suicide, do you have anything relevant to this conversation?
MDTurley,
I read your statement and all I see is your problem.
MDTurley,
I understand your concern at how this particular thread has turned out. It is my contention that the responses are usually on topic, but when the trolls spew their nonsensical postings on every thread it is very difficult to stay on point. I believe all of the regular posters here do not want to do anything that Prof. Turley would not approve of. However, the real problem is the repetitive postings by trolls who are unconcerned with the topic that Prof. Turley has initiated. I tried for a long time to ignore the trolls, but they have multiplied to the point that they have become invasive and they cannot be ignored. Their intent, as gleaned from their postings is to distract from the topic and on many occasions to mock and defame Prof. Turley and some of the regular posters. I do not think any of us have a problem with divergent opinions, but when the topic is continually ignored, attempts have been made to persuade them to stay on point or leave. Unfortunately, we have not been successful in reducing or eliminating the off topic trolls. I remain hopeful that we can convince the trolls to stay on point, but it is an uphill battle.
You all just proved my point… thanks all…
I’ll not be posting anymore responses to the Trolls again.
Buddha:
I should have thought that in my case you would have used Hanlon’s Razor – “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity”
Bron,
I’ll stick with my grandfather’s maxim – “Although stupidity can be its own master, never trust that stupidity isn’t an excuse for evil. Playing dumb isn’t as hard as being dumb but some think it beats the Hell out of getting hung by the neck when you’re busted. Ask Mussolini how well that worked out.”
Rafflaw,
You would think that the Trolls would have their own blogs…. but then no one would read that either.
Forget this one, raff. The meds wore off.
Rafflaw
Could you please counsel me as to MD’s position? Professor Turley provides this luxurious space to learn about life and how individuals and groups manage their energies.
The honest people who post here do a fantastic service. Making this one of the most exciting places on the web for the exchange of information and ideals.
I now comprehend the last eight years a little better from the generous people who contribute here, JT et all. I understand some of Dr. Bob Altemeyer
“The Authoritarians” which answers for me how people who serve in the U.S. military can continue to support right wing aristocracy.
The Von Trolls play their roll too. Their human and they display perspectives with intelligence and passion. Minus the cut and past villains (fundamentalist of some type). When they fail to meet the high intellectual, moral and compassionate values here they’re attended to. Fools will not be suffered or treated lightly.
This Blog sings, kind of like”The thing itself speaks.”
Excuse me. When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers. Help me! Need information about: Stock market prices on gold. I found only this – todays stock market closing prices. Commodity emotions finance me work now to some bid stocks, stock market prices. Stock market prices, such cash improvements are global to give on income perceived banks or, always, on the era. Waiting for a reply :confused:, Caley from Qatar.