In the same week that a father stabbed his son in church for failing to take off his hat, a Georgia woman reportedly ran over her boyfriend because she thought that he wanted to skip church to visit with another woman. Annie Knox of Athens-Clark has been charged with aggravated assault.
According to police, the boyfriend jumped on the hood of a parked car to avoid being hit. Knox, 19, reportedly chased him down by running over a lawn and onto the sidewalk.
Her best defense was stated by the The Pharisee: “If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.”
For the story, click here.
” The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
The man was obviously a gigolo,and his pious girlfriend was merely carrying out God’s law – sort of a “wake up call(me?).”
Are you sure this wsoman was not an ex-Nun? The Nuns used to keep a mental record of who went to Mass on Sunday and who did not. I don’t remember any of them coming after us in a car, but I do remember the yardstick and the solid wood pointer on more than one occasion!
this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a young woman scorned. As they say “hell hath no fury……”
rafflaw:
“I don’t remember any of them coming after us in a car, but I do remember the yardstick and the solid wood pointer…”
************
It’s all a question of available technology.
Bron98:
Wonder where she got those violent attitudes? Too much reason?
Mespo:
probably from reading too many Marvel comic books.
So religion makes one violent? Reason can make one violent as well. Do you think that wars are started on purely emotional reasons?
Granted human emotion makes one violent and some of us are not able to control our emotions for one reason or another, immaturity, disease, brain injury, emotional trauma, etc. This type of violence is usually one on one.
There is also the political and religious aspect of violence but that is a more manipulative type of violence. This young woman was simply hurt and angry that her boyfriend was stepping out on her.
Reason is not an inhibitor to violence, reason can be an initiator. As for me I will take unrestrained emotional violence over cold calculating reasoned violence everytime. One can be easily defeated the other not so easily.
The really distrubing part of this story is that she ran over a lawn to get at him. I find that offensive.
Bron,
“probably from reading too many Marvel comic books.”
Them’s a fighin’ words!
I’ll have you know that Marvel comics back in the day almost always had a clear message in favor of the good guys. Ben Parker, Peter Parker’s uncle, is famous for telling the young Spiderman “With great power comes great responsibility.” Compare and contrast to the DC produced “Watchmen”, a brilliant book by Alan Moore, but one that forever changed the comics landscape. His heroes were not so black and white. They were gray at best and one, the Comedian, was a right bastard and a killer for hire when the cards played out. Frank Miller’s “The Dark Knight”, also DC, well, let’s just say that the Nolan films only come close to scratching the surface of the darkness that drives the Batman. This is in no way a slam to either of the DC produced books. Both are on my shelves today in graphic novel form as is Alan Moore’s “The Killing Joke” (wonder where Heath got the idea for his brilliant portrayal of the Joker? there it is) and “V for Vendetta” (the movie version is a weak weak stepchild of the original). But if you have to trace to source of moral ambiguity about the use of violence, DC would be it.
Old school Marvel under the hand of Stan Lee was as BLAM and POW as any superhero comic line, but Stan always insisted that the good guys be good and the bad guys be bad. Today, moral ambiguity appears in both major houses (Marvel & DC) and the independents can and do go completely of the rails (or so I hear from my collector friends, I haven’t read a comic in many years), but it started at DC, not Marvel. ‘Nuff said.
As for the real world, violence may come from either reason or emotion, but with reason, motive is key whereas with emotion there is the mitigation of emotion itself. Reasoned violence can indeed be horrific, look at the Nazis, but reason is also a key to the proper application of traditional martial arts training. The decision to hurt someone is significant because when you seek to harm others you are really seeking to harm yourself. It is not a decision taken lightly. That’s where the training comes in. You are trained to be calm in the face of an attacker and to always ask “Do I control or do I have to kill this opponent?” One should always aim for the minimal violence possible. If not on ethical grounds, on the very practical grounds that attack exposes you to injury. It always has and it always will. Watch nature – predators pick targets based on their ease of subdual as to minimize the risk of injury to themselves in acquiring food. That’s one of the many reasons I abhor these UFC / MMA bloodsports. It’s not about defense and ending a situation as peacefully as possible. It’s about inflicting as much damage as you can regardless of what’s called for – it’s blood lust and that, my friend, is an emotion.
One other thing. This woman is a practising heterogenital christan.
Thanks for the clarity BIL,
“As for the real world, violence may come from either reason or emotion, but with reason, motive is key whereas with emotion there is the mitigation of emotion itself.”
CCD,
One lives to be of service.
bron98:
I am aware of no war STARTED by reason –naked aggression, foolishness, envy, fear, family betrayal have all been culprits –but not reason. Not unless, that is, your definition of reason differs from mine.
By the way, for ten points extra credit per example, can anyone think of a war started for religious reasons? (P.S. you have to stop at 10 examples)
Mespo,
I think what’s most often the case is that a war is started for the same general reasons (namely greed or fear of other) and religion is used as cover. Now I know there are probably people who go to war for religion, but given the tendency of people to cynically use religion to help their rise to power, I wonder how many are actually started simply for religious reasons.
I should make that clearer. Individual’s might join the fight for religious reasons. I just wonder how often the war is actually started for those reasons, rather than those reasons being propaganda and justification.
gyges:
Of course religion’s not the only reason and I ‘m sure it provides some cover, but I’ll take the participants at their word. Here’s a few purely religious wars out of thousands of examples both big and small:
Cristero War
Cromwellian conquest of Ireland
Cultural Revolution
French Wars of Religion
Inquisition
Kulturkampf · Red Terror · Test Act
Thirty Years War · War in the Vendé
Bosnia
Crusades
Sudanese Civil War
Russian Pogroms
East Timor
Ok I’m tired of typing!
Mespo,
Do you think Iraq was fought for the stated reasons?
Like I said I have no doubt that religion was used to motivate the masses. I’m also sure religion played a part in the decision to go to war. I just think that people being people, there’s a good chance those wars would have happened even if the leaders involved had to find something other than religion to fight over.
Gyges:
I think 9-11 was religion on the attack, and Iraq flowed from that pretense, and numbers 4 & 5 on my list. So religion started it and it evolved there in a circuitous route aided by the “Gang That Couldn’t Govern Straight.”
Mespo, Bron, CCD. What is up with the pseudo-philosophical BS going around about reason and emotion… I ‘m not following at all…
“I am aware of no war started by reason”
Suppose you were Iraq, the country. You’ve been bombed for no reason, your family’s murdered and raped. You’ll want to start a war against the culprits… Now, probably, you guys would call this based on emotion where I would call it reason. Do you see the instigators of the French revolution as envious have-nots or as rebels instructed by reason?
For the sad amount of wars this silly planet has already seen, some are bound to have started on reasoned grounds.
Mespo:
I certainly dont deny that religion has started many (most) wars. I am saying that reason can also lead to violence and war.
I actually dont think Hitler started WWII because of some emotional fit. that is the mistake we make to think the NAZI’s were nuts, they were not and that is the really scary part.
Our revolution was based in reason (i.e. the Declaration). I think that most people use reason when deciding to go to war or not go to war. It is something that has broad consequences and I doubt any historical figure has not taken the time to look at all of the available possibilities/outcomes. War is not necessarily a mindless undertaking, granted the outcome is always painful to the rank and file, but some times it is a required evil. There is no other way to handle physical aggression. Force must be met with force. Had Chamberlain used force against Hitler we would have not had to go through WWII, that would have been a reasoned use of force.
As a classical scholar or maybe just an enthusiast wasnt it Plato that said “only the dead have seen the end of war”? And isnt there a good latin saying “to have peace prepare for war”
The action of war may be insane but the reasons we wage war may or may not be.
Buddha:
My apologies, the Marvel comic reference was not well thought out and spur of the moment. The good guys do usually win.
Jericho:
come on man it’s called mental masturbation, get with the program!
we are having an intellectual circle jerk.
I’m the admitted LW here Jericho.
Are you questioning Morals vs Ethics and Integrity?
Mespo:
“I think 9-11 was religion on the attack, and Iraq flowed from that pretense, and numbers 4 & 5 on my list. So religion started it and it evolved there in a circuitous route aided by the “Gang That Couldn’t Govern Straight.””
Yeah…
http://tinyurl.com/bcxhf5
Right.
http://tinyurl.com/cm24lv
Mespo,
I guess we could argue this topic all day. My premise is simply that the more somebody shouts that they’re motivated by religion (although there’s any number of things you could replace religion with, )the less I believe them. I simply applied it to the starting of wars.
Unlike a lot of atheists, I don’t think that religion is necessarily a good or bad thing. I do think that it’s prone to be used to justify things, like any other area where people give themselves over to an idea bigger than the individual. It doesn’t make those things bad, just things we need to be more careful in using as a justification for our action.
personally, I think that Bush wanted 2 fronts in a war with Iran. He had to know Iran and Saudi Arabia are the Islamic focal points. But Iran was the big fish and they [Iran] figured that out pretty quick and so the guerilla war in Iraq was actually a proxy for a US Iranian conflict.
Unfortunately the better strategy of using Iraq as a foil to Iran for a war was already tried and I doubt the 2 would have risen to the bait a second time.
Gyges:
I think we ignore people’s professed reasons, at our peril. Is there any doubt that the college educated 9-11 hijackers were acting out of religious zeal. Allah Akbar, indeed. It is a mistake to assume every “rationalization” we find unsatisfactory, is not truly a “reason” for those whose attitudes are shaped by delusion. Not every zealot is a cynic –most are true believers.
Mespo,
I don’t ignore, I just don’t take everyone at their word.
Most of my truism are more rules of thumb. There’s a lot of “generally”s and “most of the time”s that get edited out of my comments.
“Is there any doubt that the college educated 9-11 hijackers were acting out of religious zeal.”
Considering none of them were on the flight manifests, the question seems moot.
“I think we ignore people’s professed reasons, at our peril.”
Whereas accepting conclusory assertions without reason & factual basis is just as asinine.
mespo,
Might I suggest that rationale often disguises itself as reason.
When I saw the reference to comic books I just had to respond but BIL beat me to it (and did a more scholarly job) but I have a few off topic comments about Graphic Novels anyway:
Anyone that hasn’t discovered the joy of Graphic Novels would do well to pick up the books BuddaIsLaughing listed and even though the material wasn’t new, ‘From Hell’ by Moore was excellently done as was ‘League of Extraordinary Gentlemen 1 & 2′. Anything by Alan Moore is a sure-fire winner as is ANY Batman by Frank Miller (Batman for adults) and as long as Miller’s name came up ‘Sin City’ is worth the read: it’s noir style and stark, edge of your comfort level b/w artwork was a treat and departure from the more lush artwork style prevalent in GN’s. It’s hard to look at, just like the stories portrayed. Not a bad thing.
Watchman has been called the greatest GN ever written and I’m tending to agree. It’s two parallel but complimentary stories played out simultaneously. The shorter story (The Black Freighter) is the pure morality tale that mirrors the larger story plays out as a comic book being read by a minor character. It’s beautifully done but I assume it’s cut totally from the movie. Boy o Boy, gonna’ be a great movie!
I thought about adding the GN ‘Transmetropolitan’ to the list but then I’d have to get all explanatory about it not having anything to do with like, Metrosexual or Trans gender, and wasn’t related to any king of trans-metro-homegenital thingy-cult and decided not to.
Totally aside: from the NYT:
“The twist is that Mr. Snyder, known for turning the Spartan comic book series “300” into a global hit movie, is also directing a separate-but-related picture that Warner plans to distribute exclusively on DVD.
The second film, tentatively called “Tales of the Black Freighter,” follows a side “Watchmen” storyline about a shipwreck and will arrive in stores five days after the main movie rolls out in theaters.”
Good news GN/Watchmen Fanboys and gals, good news indeed.
I believe that reason and emotion both play critical roles. The decision to commence a war is typically made by a small group of people who have established goals and have determined that those goals can be accomplished through aggression. This involves the exercise of reason, even if the decision is not rational. Once the decision is made to go to war, the war-makers must then develop a willingness on the part of those who will do the actual fighting and dying, and their families and loved ones, to participate. Reason is not as effective in this effort, for obvious reasons, so resort is made to emotional appeals: glory, honor, patriotism, God. As we all know, it works.
Mike A.,
That was very well put. My only addition is that really, emotional appeals have a component of reason to them as well. I’m not a dualist. People are a whole– reason and emotion intertwine. I think the most important distinction you made was the difference between reason and being rational (open to evidence). Emotion can help reason be rational.
Hi, Jill. You’re right. Good point. Even what we perceive to be purely rational decisions have emotional components, and we are frequently not even conscious of them.
Leave it to MikeA to distill the essence!
“This involves the exercise of reason, even if the decision is not rational.”
*********
It may involve a method to their madness, but it is certainly false that rational thought can achieve irrational results. Incorrect perhaps, but not irrational. A cannot lead to B and not-B.
No war has ever been started for reason except for the war that wages continually for the hearts and minds of those lost to ego and hatred. Wars have been started with reasoned principles that are false in some way, a rationale, to justify aggressive action, but never for reason proper.
Again, reasoning and rationale are not the same thing. Reasoning is the application of logic. When best utilized reasoning is geared at finding truth. Rationale is reason distorted to meet the desired ends of the rationalizer when reality confounds their logics. Be the distortion based in appeal to emotion, misconception or mental defect, it’s still a distortion. Rationalization just another type of false logic. It’s also a driving engine of propaganda. The best lies are 90% true.
Indeed, logical thought can have irrational results.
We’ve discussed the limitations and problems with logic before. If reason is the application of logic, it is subject to the same flaws as logic. When these flaws in reasoning manifest, it is often in the form of rationalization. “Those filthy Jews helped ruin the German economy after WWI!” “That slut was asking for it wearing that short skirt!” The facts don’t match the reality so the mind/ego forces a round peg into a square hole. Indeed, as a formal proposition, A cannot lead to B AND not-B, but A can lead to B OR not-B depending on how good one’s contortionist skills are in linking A to B/not-B.
I think that’s a key distinction.
Is this what passes for intelligent top-rated ‘turlee’ style conversation these days?
That which *Bron98 so elegantly refers to as ‘mental masturbation?
Things have certainly changed over that past year, haven’t they, mespo?
*aka BB/CMM/WB/GF etc
Patty,
It was crude, but Bron was just jerking Jericho’s chain – pardon the pun. Again, Bron is not Wayne. The totality of his posts illustrate that. If you want to attack him, fine, go for it. Bron’s a big boy – he can defend himself if you have an issue with him. But please distinguish between the targets. They are discrete.
In fact, we CAN resolve this issue once and for all if JT would be so kind as to check his data and confirm or deny Bron is a separate entity. Given his proven MO of banning the BB/CMM/WB/GF posting IP’s or e-mail addresses (I’m not sure which WordPress tracks, maybe both), this should not be a problem.
PattyC:
are you a one trick pony? I am not Wayne/Bartlebee/CCM.
Prof. Turley will you please put PattyC out of her misery.
I was a jackass initially and I freely admit it. I am not a lawyer so I cannot post on legal thought, but I can certainly post my opinion on whether or not wars are fought on principals or on emotions. Or whether its ok to eat beef or to tax beer. On the taxing beer thread I was actually taken aback by how many were against it and their reasons (there is hope for liberals after all and maybe at least one conservative!)
I am on the opposite side of the aisle from most of the people on this site and I freely admit that. But I have common ground in that I am a serious believer in the rule of law and individual liberty, I may not always understand the constitutional background. And for the most part I think many (not all) on this site share those beliefs.
I have been polite since I saw the light and I hope I have offered some comments that have provoked thoughtful consideration.
I very much enjoy the thought provoking nature of this site and have learned a great deal.
So please get off of my case. And I was giving Jericho a hard time. If you really want to see MM go to one of the philosphy websites where they are discussing the nature of truth vs facts or how does consciousness develope and what are the requirements for consciousness. Is it sensory stimulus or does it just happen.
While I try to respect anonymity, Bron98 has asked for confirmation of his address. He is not the same address as the other mentioned individuals. Reformed sinners are always welcome in the virtual cathedral that is this blog. I have been trying to de-troll the site regularly and when someone is found to be a troll, I have started to bar them from the site. The obvious effort of these trolls is to shutdown site with long unreleated diatribes and uncivil attacks. I will try to periodically scan for trolls and I appreciate everyone’s help in keeping the discourse civil.
I apologize to everyone for being absent from the comments section but I am in a couple of trial level cases this and next month that have been tied up.
Thank you for taking time from your day to clear this up, Professor. Good luck at trial!
Prof. Turley:
thank you and good luck with your case.
PattyC:
I hate to say it but I told you so – nanenane boo boo!
I may be a (reformed)troll but I am not a liar.
Patty C:
“Things have certainly changed over that past year, haven’t they, mespo?”
***********************
Well it certainly has changed, but we do have some fine new additions. While you and I sincerely miss our dear friend “deeply worried,” I think Mike Appleton and Buddha are truly welcome additions, and I think bron98 has his moments of lucidity after having been plucked from the maelstrom of conservative nonsense. I am a charter member of the Mike S and bobfrog fan clubs, and Jill is always pleasant and offers her authentic point of view. Gyges just gets it, and I would want Big Fella around not only for that great avatar but for his comments that are spot on. CCD looks like a “comer” to me, and I think rcampbell always offers an interesting perspective. Treachy is like a continuing legal education class that’s actually interesting, and Clint and my other religious brothers keep my skepticism in check.
The trolls are annoying but too few in number or intellectual challenge to mention. And JT, of course, is what I want to become when I grow up. As you know, my regard for you is near legendary. How about those original sources that chime in on our topics? Try getting that “take” on those other pretenders to the blog throne–and they’re not some paid talking heads either. They’re the real folks who lived the stories.
All in all I, like the literary character Little John, immensely enjoy our merry little band and say, “This here is the best that we simple men can expect. Here we’re safe. We are kings!” Apologies to anyone I missed, but these neurons have a lot of mileage on them, mostly in reverse!
My remark was directed to mespo, who I am confident would have accepted it as fair comment on the overall status of ‘Turley Blawg’ responses in both quality and substance, of late, and particularly over the past year when DW, a consummate gentleman AND avid JSTOR non-lawyer/researcher, was still here with us original ‘turlees’.
JT, I regret you felt obliged to assume a referee role in this instance, however the above responses only serve to reinforce the object of the exercise and coincidentally bolster my point,
- in my opinion.
p.s. btw, CMM equates Cro Magnum Man …
….not ‘CCM’ ;P
PattyC:
I was not asking him to referee anything I was asking him to put to rest once and for all the idea that I am Wayne/Bartlebee etc.
If the Turley Blog has had a recent diminution of intellectual bantor I feel that high praise as I have singlehandly in my troll incarnation succeeded where others have failed. I thank you for the accolades and will endeavor to do more damage in the coming months.
My apologies for the misread of CCM vs. CMM just another case of conservative stupidity.
With peace in my heart and justice for all I bid you goodnight
little princess.
Patty,
Most humble apologies if you feel I’ve in some way contributed to the decline of the rarefied atmosphere, but I submit that a bit of periodic verbal ugliness is a small price to pay in the battle to reclaim this country to We the People, the rightful owners. Some tasks require a jeweler’s screwdriver, others a flamethrower. However, as the popularity of this site grows, it will likely get more turbulent not less. Complexity breeds turbulence.
This is not just because of troll attacks as the threat to their bosses/base increases, but because people with honestly differing sensibilities, education and abilities but common goals as related to the rule of law, equity, justice and the preservation of individual liberty will emerge as the sample space of total readers/posters grows. We the People are a diverse lot, a diversity reflected in their methods and/or abilities of expression. One man’s thrown shoe is an insult, another man’s thrown shoe is just a misplaced piece of footwear. It’s a shame to discount the intent because you disapprove of the package. That’s judging a book by its cover.
But I won’t apologize for seeking clarification to quash false attribution, especially false attribution in the face of contrary evidence. A huge societal lack of clarity is how we as a nation arrived at today’s sorry state of affairs. Differentiating between the actual enemy and the merely (and in some cases, formerly) misguided is an important distinction. Thanks.
I echo the warmth and fondness people express for JT here and the Bio pages.
This site processes the power of the mustard seed!
S/B This site possesses the power of the mustard seed!
Please turn up the font Professor.
rafflaw:
I owe you an apology. While writing in reply to Patty C about the blog, I decide to cut and paste a sentence. In doing so, I just noticed I completely omitted my take on you my friend. If you must know I was extolling the work of our host, and rephrased the paragraph. My paragraph should have also included these words:
“Rafflaw provides the wisdom that is only gleaned by a lawyer living just off the shore of political corruption,and being both repulsed and mesmerized by it.”
Mea culpa!
CCD,
This bitter sweet sarcastic note’s for you!
Thanks Bob,Esq,
I couldn’t ride the Baez bull for the 8 seconds required.
I’m betting you didn’t even hit play!
Bob you can go back to the pattern of hating everything and everyone just keep showing up here. And with increased frequency!
The more frequent the better.
I’ll see your “bitter sweet sarcastic”
and raise with
“the forty turd projecting strength and calm.”
Forgot to include laughing my A$$ off….
Thanks again.
CCD,
Don’t get me wrong; I adore God.
He plays a mean strat.
So don’t think twice; it’s alright.
Bob,Esq.
“Don’t get me wrong; I adore God.”
I could never get you wrong or right Bob,
just choices that lead to more choices on this ride.
Since you adore God though, would you mind sharing what you might
have written to the current White House to investigate and indict BushCo?
I’m always searching to convey the truth.
Thanks for Clapton on the strat, forever a treat.
FYI, I bought a dozen Bobfrog bobble head dolls, at wordpress com.
CCD,
Let’s begin at the beginning; and in the beginning, God said let there be Layla.
Furthermore, I’d never ask the White House to do what the New York State Court system could accomplish itself.
After all,
‘you gotta reap just what you sow
that ole sayin’ is true …
Further on up the road you’ll find out I wasn’t lyin.’
Mespo,
BTW, you do know of course that the Kumbaya taunt was for you falling into the Former Fed LEO trap; right?
Ask him how much fun he had trying to list ‘everybody’ in a post.
SIYOM,
Bob