House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has continued her effort to explain past statements on torture and her failure to act to stop a war crime after she was briefed on the torture program. After being contradicted by both documents and one of her aides, Pelosi has now accused CIA officials misleading her in 2002.
While clearly flustered in the press conference, Pelosi continues to maintain that she was briefed on such techniques only once — in September 2002 — and that she was only told that the Administration has established that it could start to use waterboarding, a well-known form of torture. She said that in February 2003 she was only told by her staffer that the Republican chairman and the new Democratic ranking member of the Intelligence Committee had been briefed on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. That sounds like confirmation of torture to me. She added “I’ve dealt with our intelligence professionals for the last 3½ years on an almost daily basis.” Hmmm, after the weapons of mass destruction, the unlawful surveillance, the subsequent unlawful surveillance (after congressional intervention), and other Bush scandals, Pelosi saw no reason not to accept the legal and factual assertions of the agency that she was supposedly overseeing. This dovetails with Pelosi’s view that she had to accept the Bush Administration’s assurance that torture was lawful.
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She did add: “I unequivocally oppose the use of torture.” However, she also blocked any effort to investigate torture during the Bush Administration or any effort to impeachment on the basis of war crimes because she insisted that she knew of no evidence to support such allegations.
By the way, Pelosi was protected by the Speech and Debate Clause and could not have been prosecuted for going to the House floor and saying that she believed that the Administration was committing a possible war crime. Moreover, it is simply not true that she was barred for taken other forms of action. She did not have to go to Adelphi to the answer on waterboarding. A simple google search would have revealed a couple hundred site discussing its status as torture and a war crime.
Finally, if Pelosi believes that she was intentionally misled, she should call of a special prosecutor. After all, giving knowingly giving false information to Congress is a crime under 18 U.S.C. 1001(c):
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.
Yet, the most she is willing to do is call for another 9-11 Commission — and not a special prosecutor. The value of the commission is obvious. The 9-11 Commission was filled with reliable democrats and republicans who immediately declared that they would not pursue individuals or assign individual blame. It has been ridiculed for its effort to protect leading figures from blame and leaving massive holes in its investigation.
For the full story, click here.
Pelosi is a lying sack of ****. She cheats on her husband, openly so, in the SF hills and everyone here knows all about that.
Lola, must be getting a bad name. Lola, . . .
“She added “I’ve dealt with our intelligence professionals for the last 3½ years on an almost daily basis. And it’s hard for me to imagine that anyone in our intelligence area would ever mislead a member of Congress.”
I think that this is the crux of the problem and has been all along. It is why the Bush/Cheney Crime Family was able to get away with so much. I believe that her statement above was true,
in the sense that she believes it. One goes to Washington, achieves notoriety and power, becoming seduced into feeling in the “in crowd” and thus despite much evidence to the contrary, can’t believe that those people they party with can be liars, thieves and egotists. Then too with people fawning over them, they lose touch with how much of a liar, thief and egotist that they’ve become. This is true of all governments everywhere, for all of history and represents a problem with devising any equitable governmental system.
She is more credible than the CIA.
I remember loving Dennis Kucinich in the Democratic debates (For one, because he was the only one out of like 12 on the stage that didn’t support the war in Iraq initially) and he had a line like, “everyone up here is saying that they were tricked by george bush. outsmarted by GWB. lets let that sink in for a minute” I would say the same to nancy right now…
Anyone that believes or supports Pee Louse EE or Blow Momma is an A. Corn Hole.
yep
Damaging Pelosi Video: In her own 2002 words, she exposes her waterboarding lie. Watch, http://tinyurl.com/o54k7k
The whole government is lying, except for Pelosi. Riiiiiiight.
I didn’t know she was cheating on her husband.
Now I’m the one who’s been misled!!
Here all along I thought she was an honest woman and faithful to her marriage. Boy I sure was duped!
This is another case of “I’m miss perfect and everyone else is evil” situation. They (politians) don’t like to get caught in their backdoor dealings. When they are caught, you get crap like this. I hope that she never gets reelected for anything. She should at least own up to what she did. Bush was one man and couldn’t be completely responsible for everything. This is what people don’t understand. So when people are going off about Bush, no one is looking at any of the other parties involved. By the way, those other parties are likely still in office. The problems are not gone and are only getting worse.
Second in line to assume the Presidency and she doesn’t have enough sense to know or at least investigate, or honesty to tell the truth.
HOW WOULD YOU LIKE HER TO BE PRESIDENT? May God help us all.
Pelosi sure thinks we’re all stupid enough to believe her, and sadly it’s amazing to read how many are stupid enough to believe her. Furthermore, I think it is terrible that this country has come to a point where it’s okay to suck a baby’s brains out of its head with a needle moments before it is born; however, we ought not let a little water go up a terrorist’s nose.
Clearly, menopause and botox dont mix…
Well Sally,
Mike Spindell is looking for investors for an Island in the bay are of California. He is paying 12 per cent off the top. I am sure you can get him to pay 25 percent if you ask nice enough. Oh heck, if your really nice I will pay you 40 percent on all referrals. But this is a one time deal.
Provide me under separate cover you bank account number so that I can debt the 80 million needed. If it per chance happens to be an off shore account, not to worry, I will send you an update on a post card provided I have your email address.
Cannot communicate right now my tether is going off again. Oh, did I say tether it is a controlled ankle warmer for my left leg. It is legit. I think it is, the guy in a black robe ask me if I wanted to try it out. Something called house arrest, what ever that means.
Ok, get me the 80 million and we will chat ok.
Just a brief observation: Isn’t it interesting how the views of the trolls and those who find the Administration/Democrats suspect are so similar in content? Now I know the trolls follow the Bush/Cheney Crime Family party line. For a fact I know that the suspicious ones clearly don’t. Yet one would think common cause and they would be terribly wrong. One should see three decades of faux conservative rule and understand that sometimes we of good heart make it so easy for those who march to a goose step beat.
Nancy, you are one big, obnoxious liar. Sit down and be quiet. You are jeprodizing the entire country with your drivel!
I believe we are all missing the larger context of the issue which was why the Democrats did not pursue impeachment of the Bush Administration after gaining control of Congress.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was intimately involved in or aware of these crimes against the American people and her awareness of enhanced interrogation techniques is but the tip of the iceberg.
AY….
I’ve got the 80 Million that your Highly Confidential person sent me (you know, the Dr. from Nigeria?) I know the check is legit because the email said it was. I tell you what, you send me the $45,000 and I’ll give you the $80 million.
The $45,000 will simply help me move to California and I’ll pay you back. I promise.
They (politians) don’t like to get caught in their backdoor dealings, She cheats on her husband, openly so, in the SF hills.
what in the hell was she doing in the hills?
we might have the makings of a country song here. FFLEO any thoughts?
Mike,
Isn’t there a point in one of Miller’s Leibowitz books where a character points out that the heretic is more reviled than the heathen? (I could be mis-attributing that, I’ve read a lot of recently, and most of it has been of the literary branch of Science Fiction).
She is a liar. Why can’t she own up to it. Must be a big flaw in her personality. She should step down. Can’t trust a cronic liar.
Sally,
Just send me the routing number for your trust account as well as your account holding number and authorize 1, just one wire transfer from your account. Do’t worry about Mike S., I assure you I will treat him as gentle as I did you.
Hey if you can get anyone elses account number that works, just let me know. Maybe we can set up a internet solutions company for assisting account holders acting in good faith with the financial institution of their choosing. We can what do you say Liberate them of the evils.
We after all are doing G-ds work.
Is that you Bernie Madoff?
Right up front……..With out question Speaker Pelosi is lying about the extent of her knowledge on the subject of enhanced interrogation conducted after 9/11.
That is upsetting enough but, what is more troubling is the preferential selection by citizenry of this nation to pick and choose who they believe without first finding out facts and then applying some critical thinking skills. The role that the various news media play is a dominate factor in this preferential selection of who may or may not be truthful.
So, while Speaker Pelosi is lying the News Medias are at best delinquent or complacent in searching out the facts and at worst purposefully deceptive. Either-Or, they are not rising to their prescribed position to provide information that is unbiased and based on facts.
Pelosi and the current News Medias need to go. They have and are violating the basic integrity standards of our nation.
Hey Mike Spindell
Aren’t you a little old to be you! Man, you look like $hit. Maybe you should go back spending your time applying Rogaine to that chrome dome of yours. P.S. Your ex girlfriend Steve sends his regards looser…
Speaker Pelosi’s comments are irrelevant. The point is NOT whether SHE’s lying or the CIA lied. Nor is it whether torturing people got one shred of information. The POINT, the ONLY POINT is that the US was conducting illegal torture. Until the Democrats and Republicans agree that EVERYONE from Bush on down is subject to investigation and potential punishment for the war crime of CONDUCTING TORTURE–regardless of when they knew about it–this is all political theater with no meaning.
Dear Professor Turley,
I’ve been trying really hard not to use foul language on your blog. But I think I could use a theory of “attractive nuisance” when you post links to stories like this.
This woman is such an unappologetic wh_ _ _.
I don’t know which is worse; the neo-con chicken-hawks and their legions of moronic yes-men, or the milk-toast Democrats who at the end of the day, in an effort to avoid looking like wimps, expose what true chicken-sh _ _ s they really are. So that’s our choice chicken-hawk or moral chicken-sh _ _. Nazi or pansey. To quote “Walter” from “The Big Labowski” , “Say what you will about the tenants of National Socialism, at least it’s an ethos…”
If Bush, Chaney, and the rest of their vampire crew, really think the destruction they’ve done to the Constitution, and the bodies of the unknown number “disappeared” “enemy cobatants” is justified, then they are perhaps morally superior to Obama and Co. who pay lips service to the fact that our country has been committing war crimes but will not use any of the legal tools at their disposal to correct the fact.
I’m not defending Pelosi in the least, but why has this become only about her? What about the evildoers that ordered it and those that actually carried it out?
Marylynn Cruise,
Yes I remember Steve fondly, he was great in bed and loved my baldness. I don’t use Rogaine because I love myself the way I am. Speaking about loving yourself, weren’t you the female impersonator, with a deep voice and heavy beard, that got arrested for doing lewd acts upon yourself in public? Didn’t the Judge dismiss the case when you pleaded that even with yourself you couldn’t achieve orgasm and were thus driven by frustration. As for being a “looser” as you so charmingly put it, I at least worked regularly all my life, rather than your job doing $5 lap dances at the Bada Bing Club. Some people never change.
Democrats & Liberals are all scoundrels, liars, cheats, and tax evaders.
Worse, they will not and don’t know how to defend this country.
rcampbell – You’re wrong. Torture is sucking a baby’s brains out of its head with a needle minutes before it is born, which liberals seem not to concern themselves with whatsoever. However, get a little water up a known killer terrorist’s nose, who is intent on killing innocent people again and again, and you become outraged and start screaming torture. Wow, I wish you would have taken Obama to task on partial birth abortions (murder) of an innocent child with no voice or rights, and who has not been a part of any terrorist act. Your hypocrisy and stupidity astound me!
Pelosi’s actions do matter because they are evidence of how bad the leadership of this country has gotten. This includes the current leaders as well. There is no doubt that many folks were involved. As far as the soldiers who carried out the orders of those in charge, they were just following orders. Unfortunately, they are caught in a catch 22. They are in a position where they pretty much have to do what they are told. Even if the charge for disobeying an order is dropped because the order is illegal, there is always other regulations that the soldier will be charged with and court martialed for, for example, conduct unbecoming of….. Many civilians that have never served the military don’t understand this fact. Really, it boils down to survival in the military for the individual soldiers.
mIKEs:
She charged you $5? I guess I got ripped off. She must have liked that sauve sophisticated look her protestations to the contrary.
“Isn’t there a point in one of Miller’s Leibowitz books where a character points out that the heretic is more reviled than the heathen?”
Gyges,
The last time I read “A Canticle for Liebowitz” was in the late 50’s, so I remember little. Perhaps I should do a re-read for curiosity’s sake.
In any event the quote is an apt one. From the Left comes the you’re never pure enough meme and from the Right comes the you’re a communist/fascist/traitor meme. When the kids got killed at Kent State I remember my most radical acquaintances reacted with shock and horror. Finally, tired with the drama I asked them what they expected of a government they had called fascist much before Nixon and all they could do was stare at me and no doubt begin to doubt my commitment to the cause.
Debra wrote:
“As far as the soldiers who carried out the orders of those in charge, they were just following orders”
What a bunch of self-serving BS. That issue (being a good Nazi and just following orders) was settled at the Neuremburg trials in the 1940’s. That is NO excuse. It also belies the reality that CIA interrogators are not E3 level draftees. These are intelligent, highly trained professionals who know quite well what is and what is not legal. They’ve used the bogus legal opinions as a convenient cover–precisely as it was designed by the DOJ’s CYA corp of lawyers.
“Really, it boils down to survival in the military for the individual soldiers”.
Yeah, whatever…….
Tea Party Girl:
As much as I detest abortion, the federal government has no right to dictate morality. that is up to individuals. What the state giveth the state can also take away. Suppose you are able to convince enough people to make abortion illegal and then what? Now suppose in the future things change and the vote goes the other way but with the added twist that because we have national health care married couples are limited to 2 children, if they have another the government can compell the couple to have an abortion for the good of the state.
Governments are best left out of issues like abortion. The best way to eliminate abortion is to educate people that they are destroying life with potential and to offer adoption as an option.
And another thing, Rcampbell may be many things but definitely not stupid nor hypocritical.
Bron,
She didn’t charge me. The heavy black stubble and basso voice turned me off.
Tea Party Girl,
Congratulations. You win the award for the most vapid post of the year. By the way, how come with Bush in the White House and Congress controlled for 6 years not a damn thing was done about abortion? The reason is that people like you were played for suckers by the Republicans, who while they talk differently, understand that abortion can’t be banned. What makes your vapidity intolerable though is that you’re a hypocrite and too stupid to know it. If you cared so much for baby’s then you would have supported politicians who wanted to ensure adequate care for children after they were born.
Well the Dems were stupid enough to fall for Obama the fraud. Now I guess they will believe Nancy the liar. Our gov. is a complete sham.
Liberals are ruining America.
rcampbell, it seems that you never served in the military and seem to be anti-military. I wonder if I will ever see a day when people refuse to go into the military because of anti-military folks like you. Look, you don’t get it and that is obvious. I don’t support torture, but I do understand the situation a soldier is dealing with. I also understand that they are mentally harmed when they have to do things like this. Many of the soldiers get out with Post Tramatic Syndrome. Did you ever wonder why.
I agree with Bron98 about the abortion thing. I don’t think the Federal Government should be regulating abotion at all, nor marriage, nor health care, nor private businesses, nor many other things. The States should be able to make laws pertaining to this accordingly.
As far as torture, murder and such, you have abortion, which is wrong. You have people killing each other every day for a variety of reasons, You have Christians dying because of their faith (not that they did anything wrong, really).
Until people recognize that our politians are liars and corrupt, things like torture are going to continue to happen. I’m sorry, but regardless of the party affiliation, or who is president, this will continue to happen.
Funny, I haven’t heard any “Obama lied, people died” about Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Iraq. Same old, same old, yet the cool aid drinkers don’t care. Never did care about the people – just keeping their hate alive and well. Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, the Lisper, et al – what a bunch of clowns, and LYING CROOKS. Thought Stretch was going to clean the swamp. Thats sort of like the fox watching the hen house. Joke.
Let me get this straight. If the known liar Obama can’t fulfill the office of the Presidency, then it’s Biden (who can’t tell the truth about where he ate today) then Pelosi ( who can’t tell the truth about anything).
How far down the list do we have to go to get someone who can actually tell the truth?
Mike,
The recent disharmony on the blog had brought that to the tip of my tongue. I’ve been trying to decide who the heretics are.
Obama really kicked an ant hill with his ill-advised and politically motivated release of Bush Administration memos regarding EITs- I’m sure he already regrets it.
So, let’s have a hearing and get it all out there, shall we? Then watch the rats scatter who attacked Bush for protecting the country from terrorist attack… but who clearly knew what was going on five years before we heard a peep out of them
“Look, you don’t get it and that is obvious. I don’t support torture….”
Oh, so if I served in the military I’d find torture acceptable? I hope I never get that jaded or am ever so subservient to anyone or anything.
If you don’t support torture, don’t put forth lame alibis for those responsible for ordering and conducting torture.
It’s sad when you are given an opportunity to have a public discussion on the important issues facing this country, this is the best you can do. Any of you high school grads, middle school or attend school, anyone? Try reading a newspaper, watch a news broadcast or God forbid, stop listening to right wing radio. Use your head for something besides putting your Skoal Bandits hat on. There is so much information at your finger tips and you continue to plod along in your ignorance, bigotry and hate.
Reaganite
We here pretty much agree there should be a FULL airing. The result may well be to expose and embarrass those Democrats and Republicans who knew what was going on and did nothing. That’s fine. That’s as it should be.
The biggest news, however, will be the jailing of Bush, Cheney, etal. for signing off on and deliberately breaking US and international laws and treaties. Yeah, let’s do it!!!
rbjets69… it seems that you have joined in, so I guess you are uneducated as well as you so stated in your post.
rcampbell, I don’t support torture and I do believe that many should be held responsible. However, soldiers are given orders everyday, some legal and some illegal. Many times, the illegal orders don’t involve torture, just the stupidty of those in charge. Because you’ve never served, it’s obvious that you really don’t understand. I have served. Thankfully, I have never been given an illegal order. Actually, you don’t have to serve to be put in similar situations. Consider the accounting scandals a few years ago. The low-level accountants were just following orders. Those same accountants didn’t get prosecuted, just a blackspot on their resumes (even if they didn’t do anything wrong at all). These same accountants weren’t under a binding contract to serve their country where the government owns them. So the circumstances are complicated and should not be handled based on emotional reactions as you are responding out of.
rcampbell is correct to say this can only be resolved if Democrats and Republicans decide to investigate the matter, no matter who is involved.
It’s clear that some people are turning on each other to save their skins. Cheney implicated Bush for the first time rather recently. Pelosi is trying to finger the CIA. The CIA is trying to finger Pelosi. Condi Rice wavered a bit and said she was just doing what she was told. So I think of this as the opportune moment for at least two things to happen:
1. a giant document dump of evidence from anyone of courage in any branch of our govt. or private contracting company/agency
2. for the people who believe in our Consitution who are left in the Congress to hold immediate hearings, back to back, of everyone, under oath, no holds barred, not letting up until every single participant in this process is exposed.
The participants are showing weakness and disarray at this time. This won’t last long. Dissent will be silenced. So this is the time to move, while they still don’t quite have their shit together. After that, it won’t be impossible but it will be very, very hard.
rcampbell:
You have invoked the wrath of Debra, the Talking Points Queen of the planet Triple G (god, guns, gays) in the Rushbo Galaxy. You could respond if your mind could wrap around that vacuous a mind, but where do you start? (hint: I’d start at “states should be able to make laws pertaining ….” Right out of Gingrich 101, or as I call that course, “Emancipation: What Is It Good For?”)
Debra
You’re doing it again. You’re either ignoring or obfuscating reality. These acts of torture against “high-value detainees” were not conducted by low ranking personnel or noncoms. They were done, by the military’s admission, by highly trained experts. This was not Abu Ghraib We’re not talking about Lynndie England. You either have the integrity to condemn the actions and the actors or you do not. Having served in the military does not provide you or anyone else an excuse for downplaying these illegal activities.
BTW, the accountants to whom you refer weren’t responsible for the deaths of some due to extreme interrogation methods on detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan or Gitmo to which the military has admitted. Your moral relativism is showing.
This isn’t an emotional issue—-it’s the LAW!
Debra:
BTW here’s your sworn duty as a person in the service of her country. Following illegal orders is a violation of that duty. I bet you never served or if you did, had no idea your were serving in an honorable institution:
“‘I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God’”
“The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the “lawful command of his superior officer,” 891.ART.91 (2), the “lawful order of a warrant officer”, 892.ART.92 (1) the “lawful general order”, 892.ART.92 (2) “lawful order”. In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.”
Thanks to http://www.crisispapers.org/texts/UCMJ.htm for this succinct research and analysis.
mespo727272……Thanks for setting Debra straight……… on her be half she did claim service and in doing so was never given an illegal order………..but she knows they happen all the time,
Strange isn’t it?
David Kirkbride:
“…she did claim service and in doing so was never given an illegal order………..but she knows they happen all the time,
Strange isn’t it?”
***************
Unbelievable I’d say.
Mespo… actually I really did serve. I served because I believe in the goodness of our country. However, I got out because our government officials weren’t honorable. I was never given an illegal order (as I stated before) so I was fortunate to not have to disobey a direct order from a superior. It was discussed that we could disobey illegal orders. However, soldiers who have to disobey illegal orders do initally have to fight a legal battle and some lose because of lack of information or who gave them the order. If they can’t get you for disobeying an order, they will come after you for something else. That’s why I said in my inital post, I mentioned the “Conduct unbecoming, (officer, soldier) of which rcampbell, who hasn’t served, flipantly blew off as nothing at all. However, court martials are like federal crimes, it follows you, your entire life. You loose all VA benefits, retirement, voting rights. Then on top of that, you may have to serve jail time for refusing to do the illegal act. Then you are marked for life in the civilian sector. Now, lets say you have served say 10 years and are a lifer intending to retire as a soldier. That is a long time to throw away. Chances are these soldiers have families and have invested many years to serving their country. No, civilians are clueless of the pressures that these soldiers face and what they have to do to do what is right. rcampbell doesn’t have a clue.
No, I don’t support torture and I believe that who gave the orders should be held responsible, period. I have more compassion and mercy for the individual soldiers who were just following orders. Unfortunately, it seems this is going to turn out to be a witch hunt.
As far as the accounting scandals and that they didn’t involve torture, really, I am only comparing the legality and who was prosecuted. If you are looking at chains of command and who gave orders, who followed them and who was prosecuted, it can be used to determine the level of prosecution in this situation. I’m not responding out of emotion as rcampbell is.
I’m not responding out of emotion as rcampbell is.
On the contrary, Debra. Your argument is entirely and exclusively emotional. You ask us to consider the soldiers’ plight, to consider the soldiers’ families and the pressure to obey illegal orders because it’s too hard to disobey them. You ask that we go easy on soldier and his/her commanders instead of following the law.
I will remind you that the definition of “integrity” is doing what is RIGHT even when it’s hard or even if no one is watching. My argument is that our laws ban tortur–period. My argument is that everyone from Bush to Cheney to Pelosi to Boehner to the DOJ lawyers to the CIA interrogators should be held to account for their lacking in that integrity. Is following the law emotional? Hmmmm.
BTW, where does your highly developed moral relativity come down on requiring soldiers to illegally distribute Bibles—especially in an Islamic country?
Debra,
I understand what you are saying as well as a lot of others. Sometimes as you can see get lots of people lost on what the want and want it now. An order is an order and must be followed on its face. Do people here want everyone prosecuted for there role in the EIT yes of course are a number of of realist and think that some E-3 will fall for an E-7 orders because “they were career” and wanted to get off of that food chain, yes.
Some of us would be satisfied if we had Bush, Cheney and the others Ordering the EITs Hung and that would include Democrats as well. HELL YES.
Sally,
This is not Bernie M. He cannot make a call right now. However I am taking up a Fund for the Relief of Bernie. He wants me to gather as many possible share holders as possible. Some consortium. Maybe an internet charity, We are only speaking millions. Please Not Billions. That was in the old days. We are only talking about pocket change.
Oh and for those that know me and like me. The first 4 days have been fantastic. It seems like I am just getting there and its time to leave. I guess it could be worse.
I have not seen the Green man on line, has Buddha gone back to Bolivia?
Messpo72Cubed, Thanks.
Mike S. How is sunny Florida? Help me get the account numbers from Sally and we can make a deal. You are closer to the Caymans than I, right now. I laughed when you were chanting Marylynn. Kinda funny.
LottaK. You are ok.
Jill always a thrill to read what you have had to offer.
To all that I have not mentioned in name it was not in vain.
“Consider the accounting scandals a few years ago. The low-level accountants were just following orders. Those same accountants didn’t get prosecuted, just a blackspot on their resumes (even if they didn’t do anything wrong at all). ”
The difference to a good extent is that a low level accountant assigned to a dedicated account may not actually recognize the level of corruption and illegality being perpetrated and certainly have little or no idea about the behavior of the firm as a whole. It’s a way of doing business that keeps full knowledge away from people. In the government it’s a cornerstone of dealing with sensitive and classified information called “compartmentalization”.
Now, if you hand the same accountant a sharp pencil and tell him/her to stick it in the ear or rear of the accountant sitting next to him/her for the good of the company then you’d have a more realistic example.
And if the ‘little guys’ or Pelosi or anyone hearing about the government’s torture policy didn’t expect that the steep and well greased slope would end at just that place (and worse), and was not only morally repugnant but illegal, then they are too stupid to be employed in their field or they’re liars. I’d like to know (though I can guess as can anyone with half a brain) what’s on the tapes the CIA destroyed. Indite them all.
ESTA ‘MADAMA’ PELOSI ES UNA MENTIROSA. COMO PUEDE SER QUE LA TERCERA PERSONA QUE PUEDE REEMPLAZAR AL PRESIDENTE NO TENGA INFORMACIONES NI IDEA DE LO QUE ESTA PASANDO?
-1- ERES UNA MENTIROSA!!
-2- SOS UNA INCOMPETENTE!
-3- SU CARA Y SU NOMBRE ES UN INSULTO PARA LOS VOTADORES.
FUERA MENTIROSA, NO TENES PRINCIPIOS NI ESCRUPOLOS!
NOSOTROS LOS HISPANOS TE VAMOS A HECHAR DESDE CALIFORNIA!..YA VERAS! MENTIROSA
uh — back to Nancy Pelosi…. if it’s okay to do that…
I am curious about something… when did her or anyone else’s marital fidelity become a concern with regard to their job performance?
I thought that she was pretty much consistent from interview to interview and if anyone saw Countdown this evening they would have heard the latest, with corroboration that the CIA is sloppy at best with it comes to calendar housekeeping and downright lying at worst.
Torture is torture.
Water boarding is torture.
Someone in this file posted that water boarding is like getting “a little water up one’s nose” I paraphrase.
Someone else or maybe the same person wrote that water boarding is nothing when compared to abortion. I beg to differ. the decision to terminate a pregnancy is a private one made between a woman and her physician. Water boarding is torture.
And at the and of the day what we have are a bunch of people calling the Speaker a whore, a liar and to Debra who proudly served in the military… I believe the term you were looking for for the federal-like crime that follows one throughout one’s who life… it is courts martial…not court martials.
I think Debra means well, but I’ll just phrase it a different way from my military experience. Most Marines don’t question the legality of the order. Most guys (I was never in a situation like this so this is just speculation) seemed like they would be okay with carrying out orders you and I would consider questionable or downright illegal. Racism, blind obedience, all of this is ingrained within the culture. Yes, you are taught that you are obligated to refuse any illegal order, but the reality of the situation is that the culture teaches you the exact opposite. With that being said, I was never in any kind of combat situation and I never had to make decisions like these. I will say, however, that a lot of the people in the military don’t think like you or I or most people who spend their time discussing law/foreign policy on the Internet. Even though I was in the service, I always felt like an outsider because I couldn’t really relate to my peers on an intellectual level. So while I can say we should prosecute these 20 year old kids, it has to be recognized that there are bigger problems within the military than illegal orders being given.
Back to the topic at hand, if Ms. Pelosi really did know about all this, prosecute her as well. If she really did know all of this, it really shines a light on why the Democratic leadership is so reluctant to open the can of worms. I am not so naive as to believe that illegal and immoral acts are carried out in our name probably every day (or at least very often), but I do find it incredibly disturbing that something like this could have been approved (or known and nothing was done about it) at the highest levels of both parties.
I can’t even watch TV or listen to NPR these days. All they want to talk about is Dick Cheney this and Dick Cheney that. Does torture work or doesn’t it? Well, if it works… blah blah blah. Whether or not torture works is completely irrelevant. Torture is illegal and immoral. I don’t want to get into too much hyperbole, but I don’t care how many lives it saved or how many lives it didn’t save or how much information we gained or didn’t gain. Torture is illegal, immoral, and it is contradictory to everything we value as freedom-loving Americans. By even showing the slightest bit of curiousity about whether torture “worked” or not, the entire country is becoming part of the problem. The pro-torture voices have already won. It is clear that principle and the rule of law carry no weight anymore.
alot has been said…i heard that in the briefings the CIA had some things, DOD has other things, and the briefings were done with different committees…
so, they said half at one committee and the other half at the other committee and then said everyone agreed on what the other said and most was short of details
the logic was that if “they” picked up some one with knowledge of an imminent attack “they” should have other intelligence
the idea that they really needed to do anything was a subject everyone was to think about for the future of the country
it seems that what we have seen so far such as Abu Ghraib it was really the old fashined humiliate your enemy into submission…
also a military objective when invading a country is to to kill or put into submission all males 15 to 60 years of age…
in light that the Geneva Convention issues were discussed in that using the action of humiliating the population of Iraq would not achieve the miltary objective since they were already exposed to that under Saddam and the idea was not to be Saddam
this “cheney order” to waterboard over finding connections between al queda and iraq was not needed…there is connections it is just that saddam was smart enough to get it very seperate because saddam wanted sanctions (he made a ton of money on the oil for money program) so saddam’s need for al queda would only be after the invasion
the problem was that even some had alot to learn about the Al queda/taliban/islamic connections that for 40 years has thought of as seperate problems….
the torture was almost used to destroy stabilizing Iraq because Cheney knew he wouldn’t always be at war so he would need to have sanctions in order to make money…even though by the Geneva Conventions “sanctions” is an act of war
this issue has become that since cheney took certian conceptions…then uses torture the whole subject becomes “cheney” and all of it must be wrong
these people who throw out everything because of what cheney did are playing right into his hands
some in the intel field wanted to move forward after 40 years of bugus info…and no one complained when the WMD’s evidence used Saddam by Bush in the 2003 speech had been used to have sanctions against Iraq since 1998…
have a good night, mr. turely
and the idea that people just started stealing things from the Intelligence office and other buildings we didn’t have enough troops to cover and it would have only lead to the total destruction of those buildings is a naive thought…saddam’s intelligence apparratus forced people to loot everything…
Thank you GWLawSchoolMom… I knew that it’s a court martial. However, I was communicating with people who had never served the military and didn’t seem to know much about the military, so I was talking on a level that I had hoped they would understand. However, it seems that some folks are so full of rage and anger right now that they can’t see the forest from the trees. No amount of anger or rage is going to change what has already been done. What needs to happen is a modification of how things work in this country. For example… in listening to CSpan one night during the auto dealer hearing, when Barney Franks was talking to the Financial committee or advisors, Barney Franks made a comment that made the hair stand up on end. He said that since he was part of the legislative body (lawmakers), they could write whatever law that wanted. (that is paraphased) These are the type of people we have in charge. We need people with more integrity. Matthew is right as far as his take on the military. I remember disobeying a legal order when I was pregnant with my daughter and close to term. My chain of command wanted me to get a flu shot while I was in the third trimester of my pregnancy. The medical team could not verify rather the flu shot came from a live or dead virus, so I refused to get the flu shot for the health of my baby. However, I was told that if I got the flu, I would get and article 15. That is the equivalent of a misdermedar charge in the civilian sector. I was also sent out to the firing range when I was nearly 5 months pregnant to fire and M203 grenade launcher for qualification. I had to follow those orders. So you definately pick your battles. I could not torture anyone. However, if they were shooting at me, I would definately shoot back. All soldiers are trained to shoot a weapon. All of them. They are trained to kill. Then you have everyone from the commnader and cheif of the military, congressmen/women, and your chain of command behind orders to waterboard, to refuse would have landed that person in jail at leavenworth, bad conduct discharge and all benefits and rights taken away, period. When the higher-ups to include the lawmakers are behind an order, a lowly soldier, even an E7 (career soldier) has very little hope of not ending up in jail. Then it would take years to overturn the court martial and by then you have serve many years in jail already and the damage is done.
rcampbell, you seem to hate both military folks and christians.
“BTW, where does your highly developed moral relativity come down on requiring soldiers to illegally distribute Bibles—especially in an Islamic country?”
If we are going to talk about the legalities of other countries, I suppose you support the legalization of rape. I believe it was either saudi, egypt or pakastan that passed that law. How about the woman who was gang raped in saudi and was sentanced to 6 months of jail and whipped for it. How about when a person converts to Christianity, they are killed by their own family as an honor killing.
In the military, soldiers are not required to pass out bibles.
Since you are so high and mighty and self-rightous, I am pretty sure that at some point in your life, while driving, you have broken the speed-limit or run a stop light, that is unless you have never had a license. Now, people get hurt, physically disfigured or killed every day because someone does one or both of these things. BTW, either one of those is breaking the law too. I don’t hear anyone raging over that either.
Or how about the man who beats his wife night after night, (isn’t that torture) and people know and don’t report or try to stop it.
Or how about the women who are raped every day.
Or how about the child that is abused every day.
bottomline, get off your high horse unless you want to deal with all the evil in the world. BTW, I am sure you are not the innocent person you may think you are.
I know that I am not miss perfect. I have been forgiven much. This world isn’t perfect. No amount of rage or anger is going to fix it. Sound minded people with a strong since of right and wrong is what we need in charge of this country, not loose cannons or liars.
Mike Spindell 1, May 14, 2009 at 1:46 pm
“She added “I’ve dealt with our intelligence professionals for the last 3½ years on an almost daily basis. And it’s hard for me to imagine that anyone in our intelligence area would ever mislead a member of Congress.”
–
Unless I missed it in tandem, I believe JT inadvertently attributed this quote to Pelosi when it was made by Boener in response to her allegation that she was misled by the CIA.
The medical team could not verify rather the flu shot came from a live or dead virus, so I refused to get the flu shot for the health of my baby. However, I was told that if I got the flu, I would get and article 15. That is the equivalent of a misdermedar charge in the civilian sector.
—–
Unbelievable.
Flu shots contain inactivated ie non-live viruses and are safely recommended for pregnant women.
LAIV nasal spray flu vaccines contain weakened live virus, do not cause flu but would still not be recommended for pregnant women.
Any minimally capable provider knows this.
He said that since he was part of the legislative body (lawmakers), they could write whatever law that wanted. Debra
News flash politicians write the laws. They don’t always follow existing law. In which case they should be investigated. Along with all war crime conspirators, employed with DOD, DOJ, CIA, FBI serving in Congress or having served in the Executive branch.
“We need people with more integrity.” Debra
Agreed, and thanks for your service.
Patty C,
This was over 17 years ago, they were giving flu shots by needles. The military medical personel for these types of jobs are usually low ranking and less experienced. I remember when they did a mass HIV testing of our company, some young kid came at me with a needle shaking. I quickly asked for someone else to take my blood. Military medical is considerably different than civilian medical. Pregnant women in the military are not favored much, at least not when I was in. It took several years for them to finally diagnose me with a hiatel hernia. After I got out and was in dependant status, I ended up with blood clots in my lungs at the age of 29 because of birth control. I went to the military hospital twice and the last time I left, they gave me 800 mg motrin for chest pain. I had civilian medical insurance as well and went into my civilian doctor the next day, that afternoon, I was admitted to the civilian hospital and treated. BTW, this is what nationalized medical care is going to be like. Nationalized medical care is not something we want. I know from personal experience from dealing with a government run medical environment.
Yeah, Patty. Minimally capable would probably be an overstatement when talking about military health care. I contracted a (possibly) life threatening drug resistant illness while attending a training course (a bunch of people got it and it spread like wildfire). I kept noticing weird things happening with my body so I kept going to sick call over and over again. Finally after about 3 months, they told me that they tested me and found out I had this infection and they had known it for three months but no one had bothered to pick up the paperwork. Knowing I was sick, the Navy docs began treating me. Six months later, I was still infected and still having bad symptoms. Finally, when I was home on leave for a few weeks, I got angry and went to an infectious disease specialist and paid for it out of my own pocket. He told me they were doing the dumbest thing he had ever heard and couldn’t believe that the military had such poor health care. He gave me a prescription and a few weeks later I was tested and was no longer infected with this “superbug”. People regularly suffer kidney/liver problems from this bug, and the military probably took a few years off my life expectancy because of the poor care they offered. It is amazing that I have all these bad things to say about the military but I still think about rejoining every day (and I’m sure I would have if I didn’t have bigger plans down the road).
Professor Turley; Love your comments on “Constitutional Law”, watch you as a guest on some shows. You are right on with your analogy of this ‘Crime’ which has spread Worldwide. Blogging daily to many countries, I can tell you as a ‘junkie’ of many ‘human rights’ abuses, ‘American history’…..my dad’s side of family, I have many American relative’s, many European relatives and even down under. I wonder if the ordinary American realizes the depth of what this means to their credibility globally.
Seams to me, they think it’s a local, internal problem when that is so wrong, and so disengeniouis to all the other countries Amrica has ‘useed’ and have been affected by 9/11 and the wwar on terror, including countries many prisoners sent to have their ‘laws’ govern the punishment and interrogation techniques on many, many prisoners, not 3 or 4. This also is a violation of the Geneva Treaty.
So much hatred in America, while the World has taken an awful hit because of America. The ‘right’ conservatism idealism is awfully misled if they think ‘that the U.S. is a law unto itself’ when they preach to others about war criminals. Such a fraudulant stance, taking God as their personal savior, yet filled with so much hate, killing, destruction, guns, weapons, racism, hate crimes, bigotry and evil.
This is why these trials with the last administration are important, otherwise, the evil fighting evil, the way it was done in past few years will continue and we are all in danger. No one mentions the attacks on Britian and Spain, only America..(as horrid as it was), other countries have suffered because they became allies with Bush/Cheney to fight terrorism, they also, like many countries lost many souls from 9/11 attacks, but nothing mentioned about or from U.K or Spain other than the ‘convictions’ of those misleading the World…………………….eg; America
Last night, I switched over to O’Reilly for a moment to see what lies were being sold on Fox, when I heard Bill O’Reilly saying he had placed a call to CIA earlier in afternoon regarding Pelosi, got a call immediately from an agent stating Pelosi is lying. This is how rotten the system and Obama must clean it up before this happens again. He is a true leader, some things however must be emphasised especially with the CIA, ‘moles’ in CIA and how anyone can say anything. Remember when Hannity let out of the bag from Rove that they get talking points directly from WH each and every day? Stupid Hannity gave himself away on national tv. But here should be laws against this type of hype restricting information or relationships that use a media source to blanket a show like Fox News.
Yeah, Patty. Minimally capable would probably be an overstatement when talking about military health care. I contracted a (possibly) life threatening drug resistant illness while attending a training course (a bunch of people got it and it spread like wildfire). I kept noticing weird things happening with my body so I kept going to sick call over and over again. Finally after about 3 months, they told me that they tested me and found out I had this infection and they had known it for three months but no one had bothered to pick up the paperwork. Knowing I was sick, the Navy docs began treating me. Six months later, I was still infected and still having bad symptoms. Finally, when I was home on leave for a few weeks, I got angry and went to an infectious disease specialist and paid for it out of my own pocket. He told me they were doing the dumbest thing he had ever heard and couldn’t believe that the military had such poor health care. He gave me a prescription and a few weeks later I was tested and was no longer infected with this “superbug”. People regularly suffer kidney/liver problems from this bug, and the military probably took a few years off my life expectancy because of the poor care they offered. It is amazing that I have all these bad things to say about the military but I still think about rejoining every day (and I’m sure I would have if I didn’t have bigger plans down the road).
Sorry, forgot to add great post! Can’t wait to see your next post!
“Mike,
The recent disharmony on the blog had brought that to the tip of my tongue. I’ve been trying to decide who the heretics are.”
Gyges,
There is so much I want to respond to on this thread that I think your comment is the right place to begin. I got that your comment was deliberately amorphous and I think that was the essence of your point. I personally don’t believe in heresy as a way of putting people into category’s. However, one of the evils of political discourse in the last 50 years has been the rise of the “sound byte” as the main means of political/moral/religious/sociological debate. People are classified by whether a particular belief fits into the beholder’s canon. Rather than hearing the full range of a person’s thoughts, this fitting then is used to categorize the communicator and their further remarks are judged by this pre-conception, rather than on their individual merits.
Take myself for instance. On the surface I would be judged to be in disagreement with Jonathan, because I believe it is too early to judge the Administration’s torture game plan.
Because of this supposed “heresy” I feel that every time I make a statement I must differentiate it with the qualifier that JT and the ACLU are fulfilling different roles, than I do as a lone commenter, with no public persona. I do this to preclude being cast as a heretic to this site.
This is the extent of how this all plays out because the anger on all sides is so palpable and all of us have become used to the “Crossfire” technique of argumentation. The reaction to Debra above I think is typical of this and I’ll deal with that in the following post.
Debra,
You and I certainly disagree politically, but I think you have been done a disservice in the point you were making. I was 4F for Viet Nam, so I never served in the military, truth be told though I never would have enlisted. However, my work for 32 years was in an NYC bureaucracy that modeled itself, part of the mission statement, on a military means of organization. In my particular case I started as a “private” and wound up the equivalent of a “Major.” However, being a non-conformist type I was probably on track to be a “Brigadier General,” but was definitely punished for not obeying illegal orders. What separated me from a grunt is that I had certain talents in great demand and a Master’s Degree from an Ivy League School. Otherwise I would have been out on my ass, with a bad mark on my record. By the way I’m now retired with a good pension and great health care due to my years of service. Unlike the crap we do for our military retirees who we pretend to honor.
I wrote the above to contrast my problems in a hierarchy, with those problems faced by ordinary soldiers who try to make the military their career. The consequences of disobeying an illegal order are great and the retribution is
frightening. I hear that loud and clear from you and from Matthew. In my case even if I was discharged I would have done fairly well. For a soldier the consequences of a conditional or dishonorable discharge are a disaster for their future, as you made perfectly clear. I may have had a history of not following illegal orders and while it did cost me, the price was nowhere near what would be paid by an ordinary soldier. People thinking it is an easy choice for a career soldier to make, are picking and choosing where to bestow their compassion and empathy. The deal with any bureaucracy, for all of history, has been when the crap hits the fan, blame it on the people at the bottom. Hence at Abu Gharib, the only ones punished were those low on the totem pole and not those on high who gave the orders.
Now the argument that certain people will have about this would be the Nuremberg Trials, which hung people for following illegal orders. This argument I believe is specious and by the way I’m a very Jewish guy. Yes at Nuremberg they hung some of the big shots, except for one of the worst Albert Speer, but then they concentrated on the lower level people. These were people who wouldn’t have been court martialed for following illegal orders under the Nazi’s, they would have been shot, perhaps along with their families. While it sounds quite brave to assert that “I would never have done such a thing,” when faced with your death, or your families I wonder how many people would have stuck to their convictions? The other reason that Nuremberg quickly focused on the lower level people was that the US was recruiting many high ranking Nazi’s, Werner Von Braun for one, to come to America and work against the Soviets. These recruits including some very high ranking SS Officers.
Nuremberg was an exercise in hypocrisy, not because bad people got what they deserved, but because it was a show trial put on by the victors. My English teacher in HS was a WWII Marine in the Pacific, who talked of napalming caves where there were Japanese soldiers and shooting those who tried to surrender. I think if I was there along side of him I would have happily done the same. War is hell and those tasked to fight it are generally victims, no matter which side they are on. Only a few wars, WWII, have any real justification and sadly the “love” supposedly shown for our troops, gets quickly forgotten once the war is over.
Not all of us “ultra Leftists,” lack sympathy for the plight of a lower level military person and the hypocrisy of those who would invest time in prosecuting those in the lowest positions, while the real bastards who gave the orders and started the wars are to blame. All that being said I think some of your political views in general are not valid, but I have no doubt that you are a good person and I’m sorry some people were unable to understand your point.
Mike,
I knew you’d express it better than I could.
For my part, I feel that anyone that thinks you can be heretical to the Cult of JT misses one the points.
JT has a cult? Will Tom Hanks star in the movie? What’s going on in the underground cells beneath his lawschool? Are the Illuminati involved? Are their any aliens? Please let there be aliens?
Mike Spindell is the new Saul Alinsky! Let’s give this bald headed idiot a hand for his psuedo intellectual Liberal analogy and views on this blog.
Reaganite Republican Resistance,
Your comment was the best that could be expected from a fool who thinks a mediocre actor, backed by the defense industry, who mixed up his movies with reality, served as a no brains front man, was a religious hypocrite, created a huge budget deficit and did the biggest tax increase in history, was someone to be admired.
“I am curious about something… when did her or anyone else’s marital fidelity become a concern with regard to their job performance?”
“And at the and of the day what we have are a bunch of people calling the Speaker a whore, a liar”
GWLSM,
Excellent points and may I underline that the infidelity accusation came from a post talking about a rumor. I’m not a Pelosi fan and you’ve said your aren’t either, but some of the stuff being written here is way over the top.
Matthew N,
I like your intelligence and the clarity with which you express yourself. People who automatically downgrade the depth of intelligence of people from the military are usually revealing their own invalid pre-judgments.
Patty C.,
Great catch, I missed that. Certainly the original statement did not contain those words. Interesting though, how in the heat of debate on this thread some people treat allusions as facts? I did, to the detriment of my point.
CCD,
You are a pretty classy mensch, yourself. You always seem to make your points with logic and without rancor.
Jerry,
Thank you so much. Saul Alinsky was a great man and it is an honor for me to be compared to him, even from a fool like you.
Jerry,
Few people disagree more with Mike S. than I do, but I’m telling you make your arguments without personal attacks or don’t make them at all. Personal attacks are the sign of a weak argument.
Debra
I’m in a kind of picky mood today so forgive me in advance if I offend
The congressman you mentioned is Barney Frank, not Franks. Since you wrote Franks twice I assumed it was not a typo.
Mike
I don’t dislike Nancy Pelosi at all. I think she has been put in an impossible situation with this CIA/torture stuff. If I could vote for her I would. What I don’t get, and have not been able to wrap my head around since the Monica Lewinsky thing is what business it is of anyone who does what at the end of their work day. I get that elected officials work for us, but I don’t want the responsibility of telling them what they should do in their off hours. They are entitled to act foolishly, to say and do as they please, to eat dessert before their entree. Just because Speaker Pelosi got her job as the result of a popular election rather than a few interviews with a hiring manager and HR doesn’t mean that she owes all her time to the public.
Yeah, I know that other Speakers have been forced to resign for criminal behavior so far this is not the case with Speaker Pelosi.
If it turns out that she is guilty of an actual crime, then include me in calling for her resignation.
My sister in law lives in the CA-50th and her former congressman Randy Cunningham is doing time for mail fraud, tax evasion and for receiving bribes. He only got 8+ years and has to pay $1.5 million in restitution. The guy who succeeded him is an empty suit who seems to think he can do nothing at all except stay out of jail and will continue to be re-elected. I’ve pretty much decided to go down there and work for any democrat who will take this guy on in 2010. I have a few friends in CA democratic politics and I’m looking to see if the DCCC is interested in getting this seat. It’s not like they need it…
I guess when it suits your outrage.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0509/Boehner_didnt_always_defend_CIA.html?showall
Mr.Spindell said;
“What separated me from a grunt is that I had certain talents in great demand and a Master’s Degree from an Ivy League School.”
Ha ha ha ha ha, oh jeez, i guess you can’t make this stuff up, or can you.
Peggy,
Could you clarify your point please so I can destroy it with a clear conscience?
Peggy,
Mr. Spindell is likely telling the truth.
Mike,
Yes, you and I most likely differ politically. That’s okay. Having differences is always good. It helps keep a healthy perspective of this world. I’m usually well liked, so I assume that people find me to be a nice person, especially since I don’t have much else, like money or fame. My political views have stemmed more from what I have lived through. I have worked since I was 14, paid my own way through college, bought my own cars, I’m a single parent and work very hard. I pay my bills and try to do right by people. I’ve never had anything handed to me. My parents weren’t rich or even close to middle class. We didn’t have medical insurance.
I am very conservative. I don’t believe in nationalized health care because of my time in the military. Nationalized health care may work in other countries, but our country can’t handle the military, so why on earth would we think they could handle the entire population. I don’t believe that the government should have their hands in private business. I believe in fair wages and caring for those who can’t care for themselves. I just have different ideas of how that should be done. I don’t believe the govenment is capable. These are only a few areas that I am sure that we differ in. I don’t really care what the media has to say about it. What the media says isn’t always representative of reality, just someone’s biased point of view.
I do feel that the Congress and Senate need to be cleaned out and new people in those positions. People of integrity. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Let me begin by saying I have been voting Democratic for the last few elections … and expect to, for the most part … in coming elections. However, now that the shift has occurred, I’m less tolerant of Democratic dinosaurs than I am of Republicans right now – because at the least the Republicans have a huge target on their backs because of the mixed bag of politically relevant and politically toxic waste that they chose to include every time they say anything – anywhere (party of Reagan, Support the troops, 911 – Amen)
That being said – Pelosi decided to take her stand, pretty much, on a pile of jello. Investigative reporters of all feather have been waiting for this opportunity for a while – because they have implied that there was a go-along to get-along in Congress for long time. The ‘Don’t ask / Don’t tell’ of Congress if you will.
Panetta was forced to extricate politics from the Intelligence service and the best way he could do that is not going to make the ACLU, citizens with pointy sticks (I’m in this group) or watchdog groups focused on retribution (not because that’s bad) for crimes. The last group is routinely huddled into the Constitutional Law umbrella – and Rules of Law camps that often speak here and elsewhere in the shadow of the authority of the Constitution. This is wonderful. Others are pragmatists that after observing how laws can be manipulated and ultimately abrogated think sometimes that the Rules of the law – can often be not much different than the Bible. That is to say, conveniently interpreted to make a point that may not have been the original intent of the precept or authors.
We are in tumultuous times and a loud dissonant cacophony of politics, governance, leadership, constitutional conformity are actually playing second fiddle to a Global economic storm that not unlike the swine flu – may have very well have the United States in a direct path of causation.
It seems to me, that Nancy Pelosi has chosen to respond to Republican attacks – with considerably less skill than one would imagine coming from the individual that unseated Dick Gephardt and jumped Steny Hoyer effortlessly. As far as I’m concerned her public persona is a negative – and I like her – but she’s not at risk because of the powerful dynamism in our American National Government – not because there aren’t stronger and considerably more talented individuals in Congress. I have a difficult time becoming a cheerleader or defender of any politician any longer. Just because I’m very progressive doesn’t mean that I’m not a formidable capitalist that believes in accountability.
Likewise, I’m not believing many of my friends here about their interest in American Democracy or the perishability of the US Constitution when it comes to expediently adjudicating any and all involved with the most unfortunate and reprehensible acts of torture in our names. We aren’t a Nation of Laws – that’s a jingoistic BS slogan. We are a nation of people, of citizens of human beings. Laws are for crowd control – and laws get changed almost as easily as politicians.
Nancy Pelosi is on her own as far as I’m concerned – and I too remember Dennis Kucinich bravely standing alone on the stage – while Democrats snicker because he didn’t have nice hair like John Edwards. Let’s not forget we’re a nation of people and we’re fickle as hell.
CCD:
“News flash politicians write the laws”
lobbyists write the laws. I worked for one for about 6 months and they have staff lawyers that write the laws and send it to the hill and the staffers go over it and take a bit here or there and add a little something or combine it with some other groups wish list.
It is all a bunch of BS and these little putz’s (the lobbyists) are such dim witted dip sticks. And the senators and congressmen, most of the ones I met werent fit to run a 7-11.
Oh and honorarium big word big deal, $2,000 bucks from a group and you can get a congresman to do the hokey pokey with an ugly mule.
Mr. Spindell,
Are you saying need clarification to clear your conscience?
A man who claims he was classified 4F and not acceptable for military service?
A man who claims what separated himself from a grunt is that he had certain talents in great demand and a Master’s Degree from an Ivy League School?
A man who receiving a a good pension and great health care due to his years of service?
A man who thinks Saul Alinsky was a great man and believes it is an honor for himself to be compared to?
A man who has shown on this blog to have an over inflated academic opinion of himself?
You don’t need clarification Mr. Spindell. Your just a bald headed asshole who knows it all, and the rest of us are just grunts.
Peggy.
When you start calling others crude names, you only make yourself look bad. And the points you try to make have less meaning
I know plenty of people who were classified 4-F for legitimate health reasons, from poor eyesight to allergies, including my oldest brother.
They have all gone on to contribute significantly in other meaningful ways.
Mike S. IS who he claims to be, and even if he weren’t his arguments would still trump yours any day of the week.
As for health care, don’t compare the VA model any longer with Medicare. Medicare ‘works’ and is THE model we should be looking at.
In order for any new plan to work for everybody universally, everybody, universally, has to give up something, unfortunately.
The situation has reached critical mass. It’s bullet-biting time for insurance companies, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, as well as many individuals.
There is definite truth in K Street wording bills.
Patty C.
I wasn’t talking about VA as VA medical (not medal), is worse than the military medical. Out of two vets that have commented just in this particular blog (this includes my comments), both with life threatening illnesses were grossly overlooked or misdiagnosed because of the incompetancy of the medical personnel. VA suffers from a lack of funding. Remember about a year ago when it was reported that Veterians weren’t getting treated at Walter Reed, that was because of a lack of funding.
Mr. Spindel probably received good health care because of his rank. The average person is the one that get crapped on. So if you have good health care now before nationalization as just a normal citizen on the street, it will surely get worse. Yes, I can compare how the government handles medical care for these services because that is more than likely how they will handle this new nationalized health care.
I’m not old enough to get medicare, so I can’t speak from a personal point of view; however, I have heard similar complaints in that system as well. Maybe you are just lucky for receiving good service.
I’m a doctor.
I am also a former General Liability Insurance ie Bodily Inury/Property Damage claims professional which included my involvement in the Surplus and Excess Lines area.
I am a lawyer, as well.
Sally,
You are right. JT has asked people to not make personal attacks. If someone doesn’t like what someone else posts on this blog either ignore it or counter it with an actual argument. Otherwise, please post to a different blog where personal attacks are fine.
So… That just means that you can speak from a point of privilege. I’m speaking from the personal experience I have from being on the receiving end of a crappy system that our government has setup for the military. So say what you will, I will not ever, ever go to a military hospital ever again unless I am in a comma and can’t speak. I would rather drop dead on the street than go back to a system like that.
The word I used is ‘model’ – m-o-d-el.
The VA MODEL for health care is not useful in this discussion.
I also explained that I am talking about military medical which is different than VA medical.
Are you in the military, now?
No, I use to be. I had to deal with Military Medical while I was in the service and shortly there after. I stopped going to them after they almost killed me by not properly diagnosing the blood clots. I had to go to a civilian doctor to get treatment.
Also, since when do you need a pelvic exam for a respiratory infection like broncitis. That was another situation I had to tollerate while I was in. uuuggg. I have so many others. Eight years in, I can fill a book.
Debra…
You have the right to refuse any type of medical treatment. You can say that you think a pelvic exam is unecessary when getting treated for a respiratory infection. No one can force you to do anything to your body that you do not want them to do.
My husband sliced his hand on a piece of glass and went in to get a tetanus shot. They further cleaned the wound and said that he should get an x-ray to see if there was any glass in his hand. And he said thanks, but I’ll let it work itself out if there is any glass in there. He turned them down. And no one jumped on him and held his hand in place to take an x-ray.
Stand up for yourself, amazing things will happen
Yeah, I tried to say no. Their response is that they wouldn’t be able to help me then.
Also, since when do you need a pelvic exam for a respiratory infection like broncitis. That was another situation I had to tollerate while I was in. uuuggg. I have so many others. Eight years in, I can fill a book–
—
Dunno. There may have been a reaon.
Unfortunately perhaps, I wasn’t there and you were not my patient.
Well, since I had a history of respiratory problems and no female type problems, I doubt that there was any medical reason whatsoever. I have never had to deal with that ever since.
However, this is why I am TOTALLY against Nationalized medical care. Right now, as a civilian, I can just go somewhere else and file a complaint for misbehavior or stupidity. I’m not stuck. A nationalized medical system, you are kind of stuck and certainly less options and more apt to have to deal with crap like this. I can only tell you what I have had to deal with in this kind of system. Do what you will. Don’t complain if it happens.
Anyone who is harmed by any medical provider who accepts Medicare payments is still subject to private civil claims for malpractice.
Military doctors are not subject to the same private, civil (mal)practice standards.
I know. You can’t sue them without their (The government) permission. However, since this nationalized medical system is being setup, I am certain that it will have similar regulations attached. There is no convincing me that this will work or be a good thing. Not when I’ve been on the receiving end of crappy medical care by a similar system.
Peggy, I’ve been missing all of the controversy from the last few days since I’m quite busy at the moment, but I have to take the time to comment on your last rather nasty post. You can say what you wish about Mike S. He is more than capable of defending himself. However, your slur against Saul Alinsky displays a rather astonishing ignorance. Mr. Alinsky’s concerns his entire life were for those whom no one else ever cares about other than for their usefulness for purposes of economic exploitation. He recognized that the working poor can no more affect government policy than line workers can affect industrial policy unless they act in a concerted matter. He attempted to accomplish for the politically oppressed what unions were often able to accomplish for the economically oppressed. He understood that in the power game that is politics, those with money will always dominate those without money, and that organization and collective effort is the only equalizing force. If you find this reprehensible for any reason, then you are acknowledging complete ignorance of the social and industrial history of this country. It also means that you have bought into the Christian conservative myth that wealth is God’s reward for right living and that the wealthiest, being the most virtuous, can be trusted to fairly and equitably control the government and the economy.
If Medicare is the same model used for universal health care, we should be OK.
What I gather from your experience, and as you should from ours shared here, is that you did not receive completed care in that you are still questioning what happened 17 years ago and why.
That would be most unlikely to occur in my practice.
I receive good health care from my current health practicianer that is a civilian doctor. But see, I had the choice to go to her for medical care. With nationalized or even managed care, you don’t get that, unless you have money or friends in high places. That’s just how it is.
The military system has its own rules that would never be carried over into any sort of civilian system. Nurses/PAs/Nurse practitioners do the job of doctors. Enlisted personnel with a few weeks of schooling do the job of nurses. This isn’t to discredit anyone who works in the medical part of the military– they do great work. The system is just totally screwed up from the top down. I am not necessarily in favor of a “nationalized” healthcare system, but using the military system as a comparison is a poor choice.
With all due respect to all the participants in this conversation about a Public Health Care system – how can one legitimately compare the awful experiences of a particular military medical engagement with a plan that currently doesn’t exist ?
Being a proponent of Public Health, a veteran (corpsman), the beneficiary of military / private and public health (UK) systems – I’m forced to limit my anecdotes and focus on our broken system.
We have a profit-driven health insurance industry that has added no less than two (and usually three) layers of overhead / profit to every health care dollar – and an immeasurable impediment to the delivery of basic services by design.
Most health care professionals – not actuaries and health industry executives (the new buzz word for representatives of the administrative siphoning of the publics buying power) but real health care professionals, physicians, nurses and other caregivers. Overwhelmingly they support at minimum a single payer system, however my personal interviews of each yielded overwhelming consideration of a public health service not unlike the UK. If the profit is removed from health care, as it is from Police, Fire, water and sewer – which appear to work very well – shouldn’t we, at the very least, have a more comprehensive discussion about public health instead of creating horror story vignettes before there is actually a public health practice ??
There are numerous reasons for not having a public health program. Most of them reside in the stockholder reports of insurance companies and the health businesses they own.
Well, unfortunately, this isn’t the UK. This is the US and we have to look at how they handle similar type systems. True, the system is not in place yet; however, if they can’t handle one system, it is highly probable that they won’t be able to handle this one. Police and Fire is paid for by local governments, not federal. The military medical system is funded and regulated by federal. By the way, when states cut budgets, Police, Fire and healthcare for the low income are cut.
In the stock market, they say that past performance is not an indicator of future performance. However, with our government, past performance is an Highly accurate indicator of future performance.
I’m at a loss for words to your circular logic – although very Jeffersonian as to your privilege to enjoy it.
You keep returning to Military Medical as the basis for all your experience but simply dismiss my claim (of a good experience in the UK – I’m an American by the way) – apparently have no interest in discussing the potential of a Public health care system because you have made your decision as is evident by you singular determination that the stock market slogan is not analogous to government.
As to your comments about police and fire – of which I am competently experienced – there are Federal guidelines, funding etc… but it is curious that you didn’t even see the potential for a Federal / State partnership. It is easy to see that you are exercising your right to “just say no!” – and that being the case – I will wish you all a fine weekend and good health.
Peggy,
Thank you so much for responding to my question. Your dispatch in clarifying your points was heartening.
“Are you saying need clarification to clear your conscience?”
No, my conscience is quite clear already thank you. I asked for clarification so that I could then in good conscience destroy your points, without misunderstanding you.
“A man who claims he was classified 4F and not acceptable for military service?”
Yes that is true I actually went for my draft physical, unlike Bush who’s Daddy got him into the National Guard, or Cheney who arranged never to be called. You know those two names, right, they are the traitors whose policies you followed slavishly. Now at my physical they discovered that I had very, high blood pressure and sent me for an overnight stay at a VA hospital, where after constant monitoring and blood tests they gave me a 2Y, deferring me for one year. I went back the next year and after the same readings and process I was permanently deferred. Since I’ve now suffered from High Blood Pressure 44 years, had 3 heart attacks and congestive heart failure, they seemed to have guessed correctly.
“A man who claims what separated himself from a grunt is that he had certain talents in great demand and a Master’s Degree from an Ivy League School?”
Totally orphaned a 18, with no inheritance and being the first in my family to go to college, I had to work my way through college at a variety of what some would call menial jobs. This is also unlike the people who you seem to follow, like G.W.Bush, who came from a rich family and had it all handed to them. you took my remark out of context though because I was comparing my entry level position, to that of a military entry level position, for the purpose of the point I was making. I apologize if I wasn’t clear enough, but I think it was really the fault of your reading and not understanding a clear statement.
“A man who receiving a a good pension and great health care due to his years of service?”
This is true, but due to the fact that I began work for NYC in the 60’s, when they had a good pension plan. They had and still do have great health plans for their employees, because they pay them so little. For instance, even though I became an executive, I still had to work at a night job and my wife had to work full time so that we could support our family and our lifestyle was in no way anything but middle class. Unlike those who you apparently adore in the Republican Party hierarchy, I was born and will die a child of the lower middle class and I’ve kept my faith with those in the same boat, or lower economically.
“A man who thinks Saul Alinsky was a great man and believes it is an honor for himself to be compared to?”
That is quite true. Mike A. above explains who Alinsky was quite well, so I have no need to. My supposition though is that you don’t know a thing about Alinsky or his work, other than Republican talking points, or reading my prior references to him. You can be forgiven your ignorance, since Alinsky is not a household name, but to use it accusingly does you no credit given your ignorance of the facts.
“A man who has shown on this blog to have an over inflated academic opinion of himself?”
Given my body of writing here, I don’t think you’re correct, but you certainly have a right to your opinion.
“You don’t need clarification Mr. Spindell. Your just a bald headed asshole who knows it all, and the rest of us are just grunts.”
You are correct I am bald and since I’m anatomically whole I do have the organ you refer to, although I rather think that it is not the sum total of my body. What my baldness has to do with my worthiness/unworthiness I fail to see, but taste is in the eye of the beholder. It happens to be one of the characteristics I share with Dick Cheney, although I am not a draft dodging traitor.
Now to be honest this reply to you isn’t worth anyone’s time because your original comments weren’t worthy of discussion, but unfortunately, in a hubristic moment I did bring your response on myself and so felt obligated to do as I promised:
“Peggy,
Could you clarify your point please so I can destroy it with a clear conscience?”
Debra,
Thanks for your words of defense. Yes we do have different political views, but that is one of the really positive thing about this site. We mostly are able to discuss our different viewpoints without the shouting debates usually shown on the media. We do disagree on health care, but let’s leave that argument for another time. My only comment is that you have represented your distrust of government well, given your experiences. It is arguments like yours that advocates of a public health system, like myself, will have to deal with if the country is ever to have it.
I would like to call your attention to an interesting truth as you continue to use this sight. That is that most people who post here, whatever their political beliefs, have a healthy skepticism about government.
Patty & Mike,
Thanks for your support.