The Frisco Independent School District in Texas was faced with complaints about Gideon volunteers hanging around outside of schools to pass out bibles to children. They solved the problem by inviting them into the school where free bibles are now made available to the students — a move that has caused some parents to object.
The school allows the religious group to come to schools on particular days to pass out the bibles. The District says that non-school literature is allowed as long as it doesn’t “attack ethnic, religious, or racial groups.” Such material must also not “interfere with school activities or the rights of others.”
How does the district prevent other material being brought into schools. I expect some parents might object to evolutionary textbooks and even environmental textbooks. How about books on atheism or paganism?
A spokesperson said “We cannot pick and choose which materials are allowed to be left at a designated location for display/pickup based upon the viewpoint expressed in the materials.” I would have less trouble with such a display if the school allows books on atheism, gay rights, Islam, and other material to be shown. Somehow I think that there would be a backlash to such material, but it might be worth a test.
For the full story, click here.
even Cheap Hotels, Notel Motels have the same offering. Just don’t open that drawer where the phone might be. But there are places that even the Gideons will not venture. Not to say that this is not a true Hallmark on education or is that Occasion?
Disclaimer.
A little fact about Frisco and you can see why the almighty can rule.
“As of the census of 2000, there were 33,714 people, 12,065 households, and 9,652 families residing in the city. The population density was 482.4 people per square mile (186.3/km2). There were 13,683 housing units at an average density of 195.8/sq mi (75.6/km2). The racial makeup of the city was 87.25% White, 3.76% African American, 0.38% Native American, 2.35% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 4.34% from other races, and 1.89% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 11.02% of the population.”
A lot of White folks and the rest are just workers, for the most part.
“The District says that non-school literature is allowed as long as it doesn’t “attack ethnic, religious, or racial groups.”
***********
Wonder how that policy squares with this line:
“I will sweep away everything in all your land,” says the LORD. “I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity,” says the LORD. “I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD’s guidance or seek my blessings.” (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
or this one:
“When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don’t let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you.” (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)
Guess there’s a policy exclusion for Jews, Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites.
Where do I sign up for poppy distribution and invitations to the local airport?
Great decision.
I’ve been to Frisco. I had an employee the lived there at one time. AY is dead on in his analysis. It’s a nearly perfect jurisdiction to encourage this type of blatant endorsement and excessive entanglement as long as it keeps “everyone in their place”.
I hate Frisco. As badly as I loathe Dallas, Frisco is the stupid part of Dallas on steroids.
Once again, Texas is showing its true anti-constitutional colors. If the Gideons want to hand the kids a bible, they can do it at Church or at their homes. A public school is not the place for any religion to be promoted.
FormerDem, I’m sure you realize this is unconstitutional. If challenged, it will be stopped by the courts and you and others will then attack the courts for “attacking” religion. Setting aside the fact that the action is an overt attempt to promote Christianity over non-Christian religions, I don’t know why you find it so difficult to understand that are also many Christians in the world who are not fundamentalists and not members of the Gideons. Indeed, the word “Christian” covers everything from illiterate snake handlers to polygamist and apocalytic cults. So, whose bibles should be distributed? Why should it be the St. James translation? Would you object to Catholic bibles? How about papal encyclicals? I didn’t think so. What you and others of similar attitude actually believe in is the distribution of Protestant bibles and conservative Christian indoctrination through the school system. Once you acknowledge that fact, you should see the falsity of your position.
rafflaw:
Not all Texans are anti-constitutional, rabid-right christians who don’t trust their fellow citizens to be moral and ethical without religious indoctrination. Not all of us believe it’s fine to pass out bibles, or the koran, or the bhagavad gita on the grounds of a public school. Some Texans are actually atheists, though they usually don’t speak about that in public for fear of being shot.
Madalyn Murray O’Haire:
Madalyn Murray O’Hair (April 13, 1919 – September 29, 1995) was an American atheist. She was the founder of American Atheists and, either openly or behind the scenes, was its President for 32 years from 1963 to 1995.
She is best known for the lawsuit, Murray v. Curlett, which led to a landmark Supreme Court ruling and ended the practice of daily prayer in American public schools. O’Hair later founded American Atheists[1] and became so controversial that, in 1964, Life magazine referred to her as “the most hated woman in America.”[2]
She was murdered in 1995, along with her son and granddaughter, for reasons unrelated to her public image and activism.
I knew her son and he became a Baptist Minister. Oh yeah. Willie Nelson sold Bibles door to door before he found a quicker way to search for g-d.
Mike Appleton—–excellent point. I wish Mr. Turley would have offered his constitutional view of this rather than just post the story. What IS the Constitutional angle of this? I really wanna know. Im not denying there is one, I KNOW there’s one, but what is it exactly? Isnt the school system deemed as part of the “state”? Separation of church and state, right? Mike Appleton, please respond and give me the exact part of the Constitution that makes the actions of the Gideons illegal—I wanna write a story on this on my blog. I would be VERY upset if my daughter came home and she said they had Bibles set up for the taking. This is NOT what school is for. What if aan atheist group went into the school with literature that they just left out on tables for people to take? Im sure the religious people would want school officials burned at the stake. This is absurd. Im looking forward to your reply Mike A.
If I lived here and my kids were in this school (which they would quickly be moved to a private school if a non-religious one was nearby), I’d be having all sorts of fun with this. Since they’re letting the Gideons in to pass out Bibles, they would have no trouble with having a Muslim group passing out the Koran. Since they have no problem passing out Bibles, they’d have no problem with the Flying Spaghetti Monster or one of those “fake” churches passing out literature. I really hope someone uses this opening to just flood the school with religious literature of every type. Let them either pick and choose who to allow, which opens up a whole new can of worms, or let them realize how misguided this decision was in the first place. People get all angry when teachers have the kids read a book that has “questionable” content in it. Because of the ignorant mothers of America, kids can’t read Harry Potter or The Catcher in the Rye in school anymore, yet we can hand out Bibles in the lunch lines!
Larry,
It is the Lemon Test.
In 1971 decision name Lemon v. Kurtzman, in which the Court struck down a state program providing aid to religious elementary and secondary schools. Using the Lemon test, a court must first determine whether the law or government action in question has a bona fide secular purpose. This prong is based on the idea that government should only concern itself in civil matters, leaving religion to the conscience of the individual. Second, a court would ask whether the state action has the primary effect of advancing or inhibiting religion. Finally, the court would consider whether the action excessively entangles religion and government. While religion and government must interact at some points while co-existing in society, the concern here is that they do not so overlap and intertwine that people have difficulty differentiating between the two.
Although the test has come under fire from several Supreme Court justices, courts continue to use this test in most establishment-clause cases.
I think that the problem is the School sanctioned it and did not give other religions a chance to offer there ware, so to speak. It is easy to understand when you have a manger but not a menorah.
The other irony is the 10 commandments are written/painted in the US Sct. Guess what the so called Christians do not own them. So it is ok, I guess. And a SCt Justice in Alabama was removed because he would not authorize the removal of the same out of the Courthouse. Yes sir re Bob. That did in fact happen.
I would say that the Texas school distict has flunked the Lemon test!
well, the Texas school districts actions failed the first two proponents of the Lemon test. It didnt fail the 3rd one because of one reason…the word “excessive”. This isnt really excessive intertwining of religion and government here. But, it DOES advanc religion and there is NO secular purpose here. It fails.
Mike A and I disagree on this one. I don’t think the act of permitting the Gideons to distribute literature is unconstitutional so long as they permit other dissimilar groups from doing the same thing. That is what Professor Turley is driving at when he suggests a test case. I do agree it’s stupid and violative of the Board’s own policies but that does not raise Constitutional issues in and of themselves. I think we all know what’s going on here, but it only would matter if The Church of Satan or Richard Dawkins or some other non-Christian group attempted the same thing and was denied. I have no problem with people reading the Bible–so long as they read all of it. See my favorite passages above. To get rid of delusion you must expose it, not secret it away in some temple where the mystery of it lends it credibility. Let’s see if after a little stroll through Deuteronomy of Leviticus or 1 Samuel if the reader really thinks this is the best book we can come up with on morals and compassion. Were I the Gideons, I ‘d be careful what I wish for.
Bad editor. Strike “from doing.” Add “to do.”
i’ll encourage biblical costumes for the school’s Storybook Parade.
Larry, AY has provided you the principal case law. However, mespo is also correct. I did jump the gun a bit in assuming that the school would not be favorably disposed to permitting on-campus distribution of the Koran or other non-Christian religious texts. Although that is not an unreasonable practical assumption based upon the demographics of Frisco County, the pursuit of a test case under the Establishment Clause would require proof rather than assumptions. To set up a test case, for example, a Muslim group or a Wiccan coven could approach the school board and request the same access. They would likely be turned down. In addition, as AY noted, one prong of the test is whether there is a bona fide secular purpose in the school board’s actions. I seriously doubt the school board could meet that test. It would be very interesting to see the minutes of the meeting at which the Gideon proposal was approved.
Mike A & mespo,
Aye, the proof is indeed in the eating of the pudding.
mespo—-this act failed 2 of the 3 prongs of the Lemon test—-its unconstitutional, period. I dont care what you THINK. I only care about FACTS.
Mike Appleton—–you and mespo are wrong in one major aspect. You are acting as if the Gideons are the ones in charge. They dont make the rules in deciding who gets to enter the school and set up shop, the school district does. Who cares if other groups are not allowed to distribute material? The Lemon test does not grant permission as long as other groups are allowed. It doesnt matter if the school district allowed 15 religious groups sit side by side at the school….wheres the secular purpose?
Larry:
I disagree that this is a clear cut violation of 2 of the 3 prongs of the Lemon test. If the Gideons were distributing works of Shakespeare as an introduction to the students about great English literature would you have such qualms. Clearly the Tyndall or King James Bible stands as a great work of literature, however flawed, and you cannot just assume that their purpose is purely religious. Second, if other religious or non-religious groups could distribute materials at the School it could not be said that the School was promoting a particular religion. Finally, we know that merely permitting distribution of religious materials on school grounds does not entangle the government with religion, elsewise churches would be unable to rent school auditoriums for clearly religious events and no school could ever serve as a host for say an FCA chapter. Lemon does not stand for the proposition that no religious activity should ever be permitted on school grounds, it stands for the proposition that the school may not sponsor or promote religion to the exclusion of other forms of religious or nonreligious expression and thereby establish or condone a particular religion.
How absurd mespo!! The Gideons are KNOWN for passing out Bibles! They have a history of it! And since they had just lost a Supreme Court case LAST YEAR saying they couldnt actually pass the Bibles OUT, I believe it’s VERY safe to assume their purpose is religious. You talked about alot of “IF’s”:
“If the Gideons were distributing works of Shakespeare…”
“if other religious or non-religious groups could distribute materials…”
We’re dealing with what actually DID happen here, not “If” this, “if” that. The school DIDNT let other religious groups in. The Gideons DIDNT distribute Shakespeare. Let’s deal with what actually happened and not “if’s”.
Larry:
I see rational thought and hypothetical counter-examples challenging your assumptions are lost on you. Also I note with didactic enthusiasm your postulate that what a group once was is what they ,of course, are now and must ever be in the future. I envy your unchanging world where conventional wisdom trumps evidentiary inquiry every time. I ‘ll leave your to your black and white world where contrary thoughts are never a problem. If it’s concrete it must be good and if its abstract well… it’s wrong, of course.
Good refutation of my post mespo!! Your entire post was one big ad hominem attack and didnt address ONE thing I specifically said in my post. Nice dodge, deflect and ignore tactic. My post (above) must have been right on the money for you to issue a giant namecalling rant. I guess you thought your use of big words would trick me into cowering to you. LOL, just the opposite! I saw right through it! It wasnt even a good try.
And by the way, the Constitution of the United States IS black and white pal! Tell me ONE gray area in it!
Oh–I forgot—you said:
“I see rational thought and hypothetical counter-examples challenging your assumptions are lost on you” —lol, name ONE assumption in my 2:02pm post! Name ONE.
Im sorry—my 11:59pm post
Larry:
“name ONE assumption in my 2:02pm post! Name ONE.”
**************************
How’s this: “I believe it’s VERY safe to assume their purpose is religious.”
By the way, my post was at 2:02 pm.
–
“And by the way, the Constitution of the United States IS black and white pal! Tell me ONE gray area in it!”
***************
How’s the right to privacy grab you or maybe substantive due process? Find the presumption of innocence anywhere within the four corners of the document?
Were you a softball pitcher before you became a constitutional scholar?
Larry, my earlier points had nothing to do with the fact that the distribution of the Bibles was by the Gideons. The distribution could have been proposed by the 4H Club. I made reference to the Gideons because that was the group identified in the story. I am somewhat familiar with that organization’s history. Basically, it was formed by a group of Christian businessmen who got the idea of leaving Bibles in hotels during their travels. The historical background of the group would have relevance in any litigation, but the court would require evidence of intent specific to this particular case. In other words, although I am confident in my own mind about the purpose of the proposed distribution, my personal attitudes and conclusions are not evidence. I might also suggest that your views of the clarity of the Constitution would be more accurate if a bit more nuanced. Although most of my friends would probably describe me as a First Amendment absolutist, over two hundred years of constitutional litigation have taught us that
the meaning and intent of that instrument cannot be gleaned solely from its language. No document, including the Constitution and the Bible, can be properly understood in the absence of context.
I was actually being facetious, dickhead. In saying “its safe to assume”—I literally meant “its not an assumption” since the Gideons have NEVER had a NON religious purpose!! In fact, thats my question for you—–name ONE NON religious purpose of the Gideons—-just ONE.
I corrected myself about the time of my post asshole.
Who said there has to be a presumption of innocence granted? We are given the right to speedy, fair trials in the constitution. What parts are you literally talking about? Youre very vague in your last sentence.
And by the way, you said “assumptionS”—-PLURAL, but yet you listed ONE, and you was wrong even about that—as I indicated above!!
Breathe Larry, the only attack your under is the one you’re inventing with your own mind. Think self care Larry. Raise blood sugar levels and lower blood pressure. Hows treatment for that bile duct obstruction coming along?
“Mike Appleton, please respond and give me the exact part of the Constitution that makes the actions of the Gideons illegal—I wanna write a story on this on my blog.” – Larry
Who could read your blog, other than thin skinned, ad hominem, know it alls.
Like attracting like.
“Clearly the Tyndall or King James Bible stands as a great work of literature, however flawed,”
Mespo,
We disagree on this, I don’t believe either is a great work of literature, nor do I think the Torah and the Koran are either. They only make sense read from a religious perspective. As a Jew, when I first read the Christian bible I couldn’t get why it was the “greatest story ever told.” I know people who read the Torah from either a non-religious or Christian perspective, find it a bloody narrative and I can understand why. To some the Koran is the “word of Allah.” To others a justification for violence.
The issue is clearly what the reaction of the school district would be if a Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu group wanted to distribute their religious works. My guess is that the din of protest would be deafening and the School Board would not allow it. The comment that the Gideon’s are not at fault is valid, the blame rests squarely on the school board.
Mike S:
“We disagree on this, I don’t believe either is a great work of literature, nor do I think the Torah and the Koran are either. They only make sense read from a religious perspective.”
**************************
I think the language of the King James version is wonderful prose and the poetry isn’t bad either. It certainly benefits from its association with the divine, but the following is great writing by any stretch of the imagination:
To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up….
– Ecclesiastes 3: 1-3 (KJV)
and
When I was a child, I spake as a child,
I understood as a child, I thought as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away
childish things. For now we see through a
glass, darkly; but then face to face: now
I know in part; but then shall I know even
as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope,
charity, these three; but the greatest of these
is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:11-13
The Beatitudes are no slouches either!
Tyndall makes the cut for the courage exhibited in the smuggling of the Word to England and hence to the masses. Before Tyndall the Scriptures were for the elite only. Tyndall’s translation made the work accessible.
CCD, I was asking Mike Appleton to give me the part of the Constitution the Gideons were violating because I KNEW they were, not because I DOUBTED they were…moron.
EXCELLENT point Mike Spindell!!
Mespo—-I noticed you completely ignored my response back to you. Im assuming because I ripped you a new ass in mine. The Gideons DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT distribute Bibles because of it being wonderful PROSE. They distribute it so people can have Bibles and become Christians!
Give me ONE example in the entire history of the Gideons where they passed out Bibles for a LITERARY purpose. You wont find ONE. You also ignored my other question: Name ONE NON-religious purpose of the Gideons.
Larry:
“I noticed you completely ignored my response back to you. Im assuming because I ripped you a new ass in mine.”
*********************
I am always intrigued by what goes on in your a**, Larry, because it is always on such prominent display.
Larry:
They buy a lot of beer and have sex?
Brilliant response mespo. Bravo. How does it make sense to respond to a post of mine that calls you out on ignoring my questions by CONTINUING to ignore my questions???? Once again, clear evidence that you have ZERO answer for my questions and that I annihilated you with facts! Let me guess, you’ll respond to this post by CONTINUING to ignore my questions?? LOL.
Larry:
“Once again, clear evidence that you have ZERO answer for my questions and that I annihilated you with facts! ”
*********************
Self-declared victories are the basest and most fleeting kind. I’ll let the readers decide the outcome. If you really want to know the answer to your “question,” read Mike Appleton’s comments.
Larry:
Due post again with the test case results.
mespo:
Funny for the life of me I cannot perceive Mike Appleton as a dickhead or an
a**hole as Larry projects. Emotional intelligence is so underrated, and lacking it deludes ones self with grandeurs of annihilation.
CCD:
You can’t argue with the manifest truth.
“Self-declared victories are the basest and most fleeting kind. I’ll let the readers decide the outcome. If you really want to know the answer to your “question,” read Mike Appleton’s comments.”——I was CORRECT, as predicted. By telling me to refer to somone ELSE’S post, YOU did not answer my questions! Quite funny.
It’s always amusing to see someone blissfully unaware they are being screwed with.
Buddha:
I went back and read some posts in 2008 that featured Cro Magnum Man (he had what looked like a little devil as his avatar) because I wanted to see what Patty C was referring to in regards to me. I must say that I see some similarities between CMM and Larry. They have that rabid anger and they do multiple posts in a row and just cant drop something. (Now this just may be a normal human response to disagreement.)
His tirades seemed to escalate once he was called a couple of benign names. Anyway just some thoughts.
Larry:
Are you Cro Magnum Man? I have been accused of being CMM and would like to set the record straight.
By the way you sound like a trained ape maybe Bonzo of Bed Time for Bonzo, does Ronald Reagan have his hand up your a** controlling your thoughts?
Bron,
It’s possible. Look into Waynebro though before you make up your mind. He was another CCM incarnation that was considerably more rabid.
Hey, is Larry saying those things about me? I thought he was just referring to Mespo.
MikeA:
no one would ever talk smack about you. You are way to much of a gentleman (at least on this blog, having not seen you in court I am limited in my observations. Although reading some of your posts here I would not want to be an opposing counsel unprepared. The stiletto wit inserted intracranially would smart).
Bron, thank you, but you’re much too kind. As I mentioned in another post, there have been a number of courtroom moments when I would have killed for a teleprompter.
“Hey, is Larry saying those things about me? I thought he was just referring to Mespo.” M.A.
Whoops I jack up a single vehicle funeral procession?
Won’t be the last.
Larry:
You can still learn about yourself and the world we live in without verbally
stooping to the levels you display. The choice of what you create belongs to you.
Bron, I find it hilarious that when people cant address the actually substance of what I say, they have to resort to claiming Im someone else and ad hominem attacks. Quite amusing. Now, try something different—–actually address the CONTENT of what I say.
And by the way, any evidence Im “angry”??? Because I use all caps in some words? Im EMPHASIZING words. If I was yelling, every word of the post would be all caps.
I am not a religious person. I sometimes find it silly. However, I have no problem with the bibles being left. I believe this was high school or middle school. Young people should be left to make up their minds, and get diversity of opinion. That is what should make America great. Religious people also should be able to accept if their children are given opinions that are either atheistic or are religions opposite of their own. Many Americans, both left and right, show what hypocrites they are when they talk about freedom, as long its their freedom and no one elses.
Atheists lose lawsuit over Detroit’s downtown aid
Evening update
Associated Press • May 28, 2009 •
DETROIT – A federal appeals court says Detroit did not violate the Constitution when it partially reimbursed churches for renovations before the Super Bowl and other major sporting events.
Advertisement
After winning a bid to host the 2006 Super Bowl, the city in 2003 created a development program to reimburse up to half the costs of refurbishing downtown buildings and parking lots.
Three churches received 6 percent, or $737,000, of more than $11 million allocated for projects.
The group American Atheists sued, claiming the city could not include religious organizations in the program.
The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati ruled today that Detroit intended to bolster its downtown – not promote religion in general or any one faith in particular.
Thought it was applicable.