Meaning of Empathy: Sotomayor Refused to Consider Appeal of Man Based on Technicality — Man Later Found Innocent Based on DNA

200px-Sonia_SotomayorCivil libertarians have been complaining that many liberals are ignoring that Judge Sonia Sotomayor has been viewed as hostile to core liberal values and has a fairly conservative voting record in many areas, including free speech, student rights, and criminal procedure. For a review of her cases, click here. Another case has come to light that shows little of the empathy cited by the White House. While Vice President Joe Biden has emphasized the Sotomayor “watches the back of police” in cases (which is supported in some of her more controversial rulings), she has shown little empathy for those challenging police or convictions. The case of Jeffrey Deskovic is being cited as one such case.

Sotomayor was one of the judges who dismissed Deskovic’s 2000 appeal to United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit with a cursory two-page decision. The panel based its decision on the fact that the filing was made four days late due to confusion between the lawyer and the clerk.

Deskovic was convicted at 16 of killing a high school classmate and filed a habeas corpus petition to challenge his conviction. He was later proven innocent by DNA evidence.

His lawyer insisted that he was misinformed about the due date by the clerk’s office and that his client should not suffer for the miscommunication. However, Sotomayor and another judge refused to consider the merits based on the technical filing problem.

He would spend six more years behind bars until finally proven innocent (and the real killer arrested).

The Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 requires that habeas corpus petitions must be submitted no more than a year after a conviction becomes final or, as the courts later determined, no more than a year from the act’s implementation. This meant that he had until April 24, 1997 to file his habeas but his papers were filed four days late. Sotomayor and Judge Rosemary S. Pooler ruled that, even if the lawyer was told by the clerk that he had the later due date, it was still a violation and barred the appeal.

There is an interesting disconnect in the position of many liberal organizations, which have abandoned prior views to support this nominee without a hint of concern. As noted earlier, such rulings would normally cause liberals considerable concern and prompt intense review if this were a Republican nominee. Instead, there is virtually no discussion of such rulings by most liberals despite objections from civil libertarians that the left will lose ground on the Court if Sotomayor votes as she did on the Second Circuit.

For the full story, click here.

172 thoughts on “Meaning of Empathy: Sotomayor Refused to Consider Appeal of Man Based on Technicality — Man Later Found Innocent Based on DNA

  1. Sounds like she likes the power to me! An extra six years behind bars because she didn’t like someone filing their paperwork late — even after the court was made aware of the communication problem between the defendant and the clerk. I hope she sleeps well at night.

    In the world of rendition, indefinite detainees, and torture, I am more than a little concerned about this law-and-order judge. The problem is, the law no longer wants to follow the rules, leaving the rest of us out there to be used and abused at the hands of a hypocritical judicial system that is losing credibility by the day.

    Where’s another Ginsburg when you need her/him?

  2. ANY JUDGE WHICH JUDGES A RULE OF LAW AS STRICTLY AS INTERPRETED IN A CASE SUCH AS THIS DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE CALLED JUDGE. I BET IF SOMEONE OVER CHARGED THESE SAME PEOPLE ON A FOOD BILL AND THEY DISCOVERED LATER THAT THEY WERE INFACT OVER CHARGED, THEY WOULD WANT THEIR MONEY BACK.

    Technicality? Come on, do the right thing.

  3. Thank you, Professor Turley, for presenting the important contrary ‘evidence’ and opinions to help ensure a fair-minded and open vetting process for the selection of the next Supreme Court justice.

  4. Hate to sound mean, but isn’t this a legally correct result? Certainly it’s unjust. If you let lawyers claim mis-communication whenever an appeal is filed late, what’s the point of having a rule or statute that includes a time limit for appeals?

    Could Deskovic have made an appeal asserting his lawyer was incompetent?

  5. This is the most disturbing thing that I’ve read about her. It causes me to re-think her nomination.

  6. This is a troubling issue. I am not familiar with the statute, but my first inquiry would be whether the statutory deadline was jurisdictional. If it was, then the court had no choice but to dismiss the appeal for lack of jurisdiction. If not, then the inquiry would be whether the attorney’s explanation was sufficient to excuse the failure to meet the deadline. It is much less complicated in a civil action because the client always has the available remedy of a malpractice claim against counsel.

  7. foo 1, June 11, 2009 at 9:04 am

    Hate to sound mean, but isn’t this a legally correct result? Certainly it’s unjust. If you let lawyers claim mis-communication whenever an appeal is filed late, what’s the point of having a rule or statute that includes a time limit for appeals?

    Could Deskovic have made an appeal asserting his lawyer was incompetent?
    *************************

    Maybe it was the “Legally Correct” result. Would you want your ass in prison for a crime you did not commit? If a clerk tells me a date is so and so, generally you can rely upon that word. But for the DNA he would still be MIS-Imprisoned. How would you feel if it was you, your child, your relative. Would you still agree that its a technicality?

    Life is full of technicalities, go to the bank for instance.

    Generally a client is stuck with the counsel’s decision, especially a procedural one such as this.

  8. Excuse the brain dead moment. There is no jurisdictional issue. The opinion was wrong because the court abused its discretion given the attorney’s explanation. The attorney was indeed negligent in relying on the clerk, but that is the type of excusable negligence that is routinely found sufficient to avoid dismissal.

  9. I really worry about this also. Another person’s life in prison for a four day mix-up? I remeber reading about this case and being appalled. I didn’t realize it was Sotomayor involved in it. What kind of person would let someone rot in prison on a technicality? This shows a bureaucratic approach to the law, not one based on a deep understanding of justice.

    foo,

    I appreciated your analysis of the affirmative action claim and your point above. In my experience, if a person is committed to justice they find, or at least they try to find, every pathway to justice. She didn’t even make the effort. Sometimes, there is some arcane, bizarre, rule that one can evoke on behalf of law as justice, (in this case, never imprison the innocent), as opposed to the lock step following of the letter of the law. I know that sucess may be slim but I’ve seen a lot of people try very hard to do this very thing.

    When Jonathan said she didn’t seem to have a deep relationship with the law I think this is one example of what he meant. We are in crisis with the rule of law in this nation. We deserve someone who does have a deep understanding that the law is there to serve justice, not simpleminded, crushing bureaucracies.

  10. I just read Mike A., it wasn’t even an issue of finding something arcane to let a man prove his innocence, it was a routine matter. That shows a callus disreagard for another human being’s life. She should not be confirmed.

  11. No confidence in usurper Obama’s hypocrite / traitors.

    Rachel Maddow – FYI – The document Obama presents as his ‘birth certificate’ is not acceptable as proof in Hawaii where he claims to have been born. “Hawaii Home Lands won’t take it, but Obama insists it certifies him to be Commander-in-Chief.” The evidence mounts that Obama is not even an American citizen.

    Rush Limbaugh: “What do Obama and God have in common? Neither has a birth certificate.”

    Obama – Where’s the Birth Certificate?

    http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?p=6287

  12. Mike S, Mike A, everyone

    I’ve been wondering alot about President Obama’s decisions on behalf of the people who elected him and expected a liberal, a democrat, and instead have someone who seem to be running to the right. What the GOP doesn’t get is that Sotomayor is their gal. She always was. There is little about her that is left-leaning and maybe they are doing us a favor by trying to stall her confirmation thinking that maybe she will simply tire of this and go away or that Obama will have to withdraw her nomination.
    I’m no legal authority. I like to watch this stuff on TV. I’ve been watching hearings and confirmations since Watergate. My only gifts come from curiosity and the ability to turn a nice phrase once in a while.

  13. Jill wrote: “We are in crisis with the rule of law in this nation. We deserve someone who does have a deep understanding that the law is there to serve justice, not simpleminded, crushing bureaucracies.”

    Well said. And I have to agree that she should not be confirmed.

  14. “I’ve been wondering alot about President Obama’s decisions on behalf of the people who elected him and expected a liberal, a democrat, and instead have someone who seem to be running to the right.”

    GWLSM,
    I worry about that too, but I never though that the President was nearly as left wing as I’d prefer. What we forget though is that even with a Democratic Congress, many elected Democrats are fairly centrist or Right Wing (hate these terms because they’re not truly descriptive, but needed to shorten the writing). Now elected President Obama has to govern and it isn’t easy with some of the so-called Democrats he has to deal with.

  15. Jill:

    I had to borrow some of your post:
    “When Jonathan said she didn’t seem to have a deep relationship with the law”or for that matter “EMPATHY”

  16. GWLSM, Mike Spindell et al.

    I voted for Mr. Obama because the policies of my Republican Party were thoroughly discredited, the U.S.A. needed new leadership, and I was willing to take a chance on a liberal Democrat to effect that change. However, Mr. Obama has not only disappointed people like me, he has forsaken a vast number of his most ardent supporters, especially the civil libertarians of the Democratic Party.

    Obama is a man who currently does not have the moral compass to be the leader we need in these tough and extremely divisive times when all political persuasions are perilously opposed and growling threatening insults at one another. He needs only to regroup and then rely on 3 time-honored guides to reverse his current meandering course and set the stage for his legacy as a good president:

    1) The U.S. Constitution

    2) The Bill of Rights et al

    3) The Rule of Law

    Most certainly, he has some very poor and unethical Democrats with which to deal, although history will judge him by how well he applied the aforementioned canons and not that over which he had no control.

  17. http://open.salon.com/blog/brinna_nanda/2009/05/14/pomona_pd_raids_collective_gestapo-style_is_this_america

    There are some very troubling “trends” in this country of ours, as we know…

    I’m in agreement with “FF LEO” and I quote: He needs only to regroup and then rely on 3 time-honored guides to reverse his current meandering course and set the stage for his legacy as a good president:

    1) The U.S. Constitution

    2) The Bill of Rights et al

    3) The Rule of Law (end quote)

    Questions for anyone: There is a group known as the LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit), I believe. As I understand it, the organization receives public funding, but does not respond to FOIA requests related to some kind of exemption. Is this true? Other thoughts?

  18. What has President Obama done?

    I realize H.S.’s Napolitano is aware of the fascist threat we face, but Obama nominee Sotomayor might not be what this nation needs most of all today: The embodiment of the living lyric of the Constitution.

    Any backsliding through tortured reasoning, as shown at regular intervals by the Smelly Four, should not be embellished, even at lowest titer. Even at the threat level of a single wayward neuron. Haven’t we learned yet? The Constitution is not served diluted, but at full strength.

    Interrupting, possibly permanently, the complete return of the Founder’s lyric is not a risk worth taking.

    http://www.light-to-dark.com/gonzo_or_justice.html

  19. Mike S.,

    I just can’t see how to describe Obama as a left wing politician, fighting with those in his own party who are more centrist and right wing. His policies are, in the main, quite right wing. He’s pro-corporatist economically. We are actually missing about 8 trillion dollars that have secretly gone through the Fed to his hand picked corporate allies. Look at all the money GS has accumulated by his hand. This is not the economic policy of a left wing politician.

    As to civil liberties, again, he’s not at all left wing. This president is all for spying on our citizens, he’s cut off access to pictures of the crime of torture. His DOJ has invoked state secrets beyond the Bush administrations’ prior claims. Detainee rights are curtailed beyond Bush. These are not things that Democrats made him do. These are policy decisions he made and has actively supported.

    I also don’t see his policy of three active wars as left wing. If you have time please hear out this interview on Bill Moyers with Jeremy Scahill. Our tax money is going out hand over fist to mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan. (link below).

    These were all executive branch decisions. Congress shows little opposition to any of these proposals or anything else Obama puts before them. If we take the measure of Obama he just can’t be seen as left wing, fighting hard for humanitarian and civil rights against a hostile Congress. I know we won’t agree on this but, I just don’t see how to call Obama left wing.

    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html

  20. If her opinions are ignored completely by those on the left she will become our own Clarence Thomas. Perhaps our tokenism will be less ironic than that which seated Thomas, but I don’t want the Republican’s level of cynicism to be the yardstick we use to judge ourselves.

    For too many years I’ve been hearing a defense of watering boarding, “well, they cut off heads, all we do is slash water on their faces/pretend to drown them”. Using the lowest possible standard as one’s fail-safe is never a good idea.

  21. Jill,

    Very well said.

    Obama continues to articulate many of the right words. However, his actions on civil liberties, executive power, government transparency, faith based initiatives, foreign policy, and expansion of corporatist government seem more like a Bush III presidency.

    While I did not support either major party, I am very pleased to see many on the left maintain their support for principles over person as evidence mounts. Criticism of Sotomayor is another example of this. Had this been true under Bush with consistent criticism from the Goldwater right, the country and her core principles would be far better off today.

  22. puzzling,

    The right wing should have been out in front, excoriating Bush for the destruction of every value this nation holds dear. Instead they, for the most part, with brave exceptions, capitulated in the destruction of the rule of law, helping Bush “live the dream” that the Consitution is “just a piece of paper”. This cowardice was beyond reprehensible. We are paying dearly for this cowardice.

  23. Jill,

    You are absolutely right. So far, the left is proving to be far more principled than the right was under Bush.

    I would also argue that the actions by Republicans under Bush were worse than cowardice… in many cases much worse. I’m afraid we have only begun to pay the price for that, part of which is the level of executive power that Obama will hold if he goes off the rails entirely.

  24. Come on Sonia Sotomayor is eminantly qualified for the bench. She is an hispanic female with empathy. and will take decisions based on said empathy, I for one am looking forward to her confirmation.

    Hopefully the right wont be stupid enough to fall into this trap the left is setting. Get those rascally republicans to torpedo her nomination for them. then blame it on right wing racism. You guys are as transparent as saran wrap.

  25. Puzzling:

    Its to bad that Dems can’t seem to do under Obama what the Republicans did under Bush, is the standing behind what ever he did.All of a sudden some senators want to be individuals.

    Which I understand is their right,but it seems as if its a tug of war,regardless of the issue.

  26. Jill:

    neither the right or the left has any use for the constitution. both only want power over people.

    The Christian right and the far left want to enslave man, one for the hereafter one for the here and now.

    Both the right and the left want control and no one seems to be able to stop it. Get ready for the Jack Boots and Goose Stepping.

  27. This is certainly disturbing. I find it contemptible to strictly adhere to bureaucratic rules at the expense of true justice. I hope that is not a pattern of hers.

  28. More on Jeremy Scahill:

    Jeremy Scahill Goes Inside Blackwater, the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army

    http://blog.buzzflash.com/interviews/057

    Domestic surveillance operations are much worse than most people realize but, historically, we ignore the warning signs and then, when there’s a crisis, we react. (Are these ops COINTELPRO? Are they CIA, NSA, or DHS programs? Are private contractors like Blackwater/Xe involved? Are we seeing a resurgence of McCarthy-era Red Squads? Whatever’s going on, it isn’t something that is consistent with our values, the rule of law or the Constitution.

  29. mike appleton wrote

    “The attorney was indeed negligent in relying on the clerk, but that is the type of excusable negligence that is routinely found sufficient to avoid dismissal.”

    that begs the question is the court negligent in relying on the clerk?

  30. I.S.,
    (from above) “Hopefully the right wont be stupid enough to fall into this trap the left is setting. Get those rascally republicans to torpedo her nomination for them.”
    —————————————————————
    My understanding is that Republican Senators do not oppose Judge Sotomayor. In fact they have been asked to filibuster her nomination but the Senators have indicated they do not want to do so. Are you’re saying the left wing has somehow forced the right wing to ask for a filibuster so the right wing can be blamed for the failure of her confirmation, while at the same time Republican Senators say they will likely confirm her? If so, I’m confused.

    This is from the NYT on the rightwing request for a filiabuster.

    “So far, Senate Republicans have not voiced enthusiasm about trying to mount a filibuster. On CNN last week, for example, the top Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Jeff Sessions of Alabama, said, “I don’t sense a filibuster in the works.”

    “I would think that we need to all have a good hearing, take our time, and do it right,” he said. “And then the senators cast their vote up or down based on whether or not they think this is the kind of judge that should be on the court.”

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/conservatives-ask-republican-senators-to-filibuster-on-sotomayor/

  31. @IndenturedServant

    Thanks, but I did not intend it as satire. Although overall I support her nomination, this is actually disturbing.

  32. Jill:

    hopefully the right will just vote for her if they don’t and she is not confirmed I can here it now – “Republican Senators Racist for voting down empathetic Latina nomination”

  33. As long as we’re gettin trolled, here’s some important info:

    “The ACLU today launched a major new campaign to impose accountability for torture and related Bush-era crimes. The campaign — Accountability for Torture — is devoted principally to a restoration of the rule of law and the appointment by the DOJ of a Special Prosecutor. The website to coordinate these efforts is here, and that site is also now probably the single best resource for all documents and other information relating to torture and accountability efforts. The ACLU has clearly led the way in battling for disclosure of Bush-era war crimes secrets — so much of what we know is due to their litigation efforts and those of other civil liberties groups (rather than, say, the efforts of the “watchdog” media or the “oversight” Congress). But what has been missing up until now is a coordinated, centralized effort to galvanize public demands for accountability, and this project is intended to provide that.

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

    To launch the campaign, I hosted a podcast discussion on issues of accountability and transparency with international human rights lawyer Phillipe Sands (author of Torture Team) and ACLU litigator Amrit Singh (co-author of Administration of Torture), which can be heard here. It is roughly 25 minutes long. One of the critical themes that emerged was that, both in general and specifically for Bush crimes, a prerequisite to accountability is transparency and disclosure. Only once citizens know what their Government did will they be able to hold the wrongdoers accountable.”

  34. Oh oh:

    Business groups dare Obama to limit pay for unions bosses…

    ‘This Interview is Over': Barney Frank Walks Off Live CNBC Interview on Executive Pay…

    New GM Chairman declares: ‘I don’t know anything about cars’…

    Russia urges USA to drop missile shield to “help ties”…

    ADMINISTRATION: “PAY” CZAR WILL REIN IN PAY ACROSS PRIVATE SECTOR

    PREDICTION: $200 OIL…

    PREDICTION: Gasoline to $4.50 by December 2009…

  35. Time to Demand Obama’s Resignation

    Alan Caruba Bio

    By Alan Caruba Thursday, June 11, 2009
    “In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal…” (Article Two, U.S. Constitution)

    Since the President takes an oath to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States”, a President who acts contrary to the Constitution or is found guilty of breaking the law should be subject to removal.

    Constitutionally, removal can be secured by “impeachment for, conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.”

    Preserving and protecting the Constitution
    The question of preserving and protecting the Constitution would be hard to prove except in hindsight, but by then it would be too late for the nation, ruined by excessive, unjustified taxation and borrowing that threatens the collapse of the economy.

    I would argue that a President who appoints over twenty “czars” to supersede the powers of the secretaries of various federal departments; people who are apparently exempt from Congressional approval or oversight, and people who apparently do not feel the need to hold press conferences to explain what they are doing, is distinctly unconstitutional.

    It will be argued that there have been various such “czars” in the past, mostly particularly “drug czars” whose purpose was to oversee and coordinate efforts to address the nation’s problems with illegal drugs, but the imposition of people to virtually replace members of the President’s cabinet is unprecedented. Cabinet officers must receive the approval of Congress, but these “czars” have not.

    Even the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, has been reduced to a mere figurehead as various personal envoys of the President have been authorized to act for him regarding sensitive diplomatic affairs, answerable presumably only to him.

    Running the government through an invisible network of people who are not answerable to the citizens of the nation
    What we have is a President who is running the government through an invisible network of people who are not answerable to the citizens of the nation, yet granted powers to determine the extent of the rights of those citizens including how much compensation they may receive.

    This is a President who has said during a C-Span interview that the government is out of money, but who is pressing forward for legislation to impose trillions in taxes on all energy use, who advocates the borrowing of tens of billions by the nation for a proposed healthcare “reform”, and who has already signed a so-called stimulus bill of nearly 9,000 items representing $700 billion that he deemed “imperfect.”

    The economy does not need a stimulus. It needs the government to get out of the way of the free market system to correct itself and for the nation’s famed entrepreneurial spirit to initiate new businesses and new jobs. We do not “rescue” people who took on too much debt.

    He has approved “bailouts” to private companies that should have been allowed to seek bankruptcy protection and he has demanded that the former head of General Motors be fired by its board of directors. He has launched an attack on the Constitutional sanctity of contracts, abrogating the rights of lenders. Banks which received TARP funds are desperate to return such funding to the U.S. Treasury rather than give up control over their affairs.

    We have all watched the President in action since January 20, 2009 and what we have seen and heard has been constant criticism of America that has been an affront to our great history and our defense of human rights. He has done this in one foreign nation after another.

    A speech in Cairo to the worldwide Muslim community President Obama distorted the facts of American history and conflated the deliberate murder of six million European Jews in the last century with the suffering inflicted on so-called Palestinians by their fellow Arabs; the result of repeated wars on Israel. No such comparison can be made and is by definition obscene.

    Oathkeepers, TEA Parties, Protestors
    Within months, “tea parties”, citizen protests, occurred from coast to coast and others are being planned for July Fourth. Not since the advent of the Civil War under threat of secession has a President faced such widespread opposition after taking office.

    In State after State, resolutions are being passed in opposition to his proposed legislation and policies. An organization of “Oath-Keepers”, members of the U.S. military, the reserves, the National Guard, peace officers, and veterans, has emerged to say they will not blindly “follow orders” issued by this President that are contrary to the oath to uphold the Constitution they have taken.

    This is a President whose Department of Homeland Security has defined as “extremist” anyone who criticizes or disagrees with his policies.

    Americans who are fearful of the havoc President Barack Obama has let loose on this nation need to flood Congress with the demand that he be removed from office for his failure to protect, preserve, and defend the Constitution. Indeed, to conclusively prove he was constitutionally qualified to run for the presidency.

    The White House has to hear from Americans calling on the President to resign.

    He and the Democrat-controlled Congress are proposing onerous taxation and reckless borrowing that will destroy the nation’s economy.

    Americans cannot afford to let this President hold power until the next election in 2012. They cannot hope that the midterm elections in 2010 will be sufficient to protect them against the damage he will do to them, to their children, and to their grandchildren before they are held.

  36. The LIAR-IN-CHIEF:

    On Tuesday, the White House released a photograph of President Obama nonchalantly leaning back in his chair with his feet on the desk, the soles of his shoes clearly visible–as he spoke on the telephone with Benyamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel. Israelis have interpreted the release of the photograph as an expression of contempt, intended for Arab consumption.

    I suspect that the Israelis are not being hypersensitive. Barack Obama has a history of belittling his adversaries in just such a fashion. In April 2008, he was caught on tape during a debate with Hillary Clinton, rubbing his hand across the right side of his face and extending his middle finger in an obscene gesture that many in the audience could see it but she could not, and when this provoked laughter on the part of his supporters he responded with a knowing smile.

    Later, after accepting his party’s nomination, he did precisely the same thing during a debate with John McCain; and, after Sarah Palin remarked at the Republican National Convention that the only difference between a pit bull and a soccer mom was lipstick, he observed at a rally that a pig with lipstick is still a pig. Again, many in the audience caught the dig and they, too, were rewarded with a knowing smile.

    Obama is, in fact, a master of the insulting gesture. There is no other construction that one can put on his conduct towards Gordon Brown when the British prime minister paid him a visit shortly after his inauguration. First, in an ostentatious manner, he returned to the British embassy a bust of Winston Churchill that had been loaned to his predecessor. Then, when Brown presented him with a pen made from timber used in a British ship once involved in putting down the slave trade, he gave him in return a stack of movies on DVD which could not be played on machines sold in Europe.

    Were Obama a yokel, one might be able to explain this away. But a yokel he is not, and there are State Department protocol officers who are highly sensitive to the proprieties. It is no accident that, at about the same time, the White House press secretary intimated in the presence of members of the British press that there was no special relationship between the United States and Great Britain. Obama’s gesture was a calculated insult–meant to be understood only by those to whom it was directed.

    If we are to comprehend what is going on, we must pay close attention not only to what Obama says but to what he conveys in other ways. His tone is nearly always moderate but what he hints at and what he intimates by way of body language often convey the opposite. Witness his warm embrace of Hugo Chavez. Behind the thin veneer of politeness, there is, I suspect, something ugly lurking. In the first of the autobiographies that he claims to have written, Barack Obama frequently speaks of himself as being in the grips of rage. We would do well to take him at his word. If we are to stop him from doing great damage to this country and to our friends and allies, we must take every opportunity that comes our way to unmask the man.

  37. I have to say, if this was a Republican judge we would not be having this conversation. I’d like to know what she should have based her decision on, if not the law? Ask me if I think its right? Of course, not, there are many problems with this legal system. But the real question is, was Sotomayor alone in her decision? And what would another [let’s assume ‘better’] judge have done?

  38. Legally Obama cannot nominate someone for the Supreme Court of Fools. He is Not the president.

    Obama by his real names: Usurper, Traitor, Wall Street Stooge, National Socialist, Fascist, Pathological Liar and above all, War Criminal – Mass Murderer.

  39. http://BuenaVistaMall.com 1, June 12, 2009 at 6:51 am

    Legally Obama cannot nominate someone for the Supreme Court of Fools. He is Not the president.

    Obama by his real names: Usurper, Traitor, Wall Street Stooge, National Socialist, Fascist, Pathological Liar and above all, War Criminal – Mass Murderer.
    ****************************

    I presume you think that George W Bush did nothing illegal either as he was not elected by the people nor decided on by a majority of the electoral collage? Makes sense to me.

  40. Both Bush and Obama are Traitors, War Criminals – Mass Murderers. They have violated many U.S. laws and should have been arrested long ago. Sotomayor, Supreme Fools, et al are complicit in treason and War Crimes in not calling for their arrests. The judicial system is thoroughly corrupted.

  41. Obama has no authority to nominate to the Supreme Court of Fools.

    Tuesday, 17 March 2009

    http://jaghunters.blogspot.com/2009/03/tuesday-17-march-2009-to-mr.html

    To Mr. Barack Obama

    Via: U.S Attorney Russell Dedrick, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Edward Schmutzer, Eastern District, Tennessee

    From: Walter Francis Fitzpatrick, III, United States Navy Retired

    Distribution: Wide

    SUBJECT: CRIMINAL ALLEGATIONS REGARDING THE COMMISSION OF TREASON

    I have observed and extensively recorded invidious attacks by military-political aristocrats against the Constitution for twenty years.

    Now you have broken in and entered the White House by force of contrivance, concealment, conceit, dissembling, and deceit. Posing as an impostor president and commander in chief you have stripped civilian command and control over the military establishment. Known military criminal actors—command racketeers—are now free in the exercise of military government intent upon destruction of America’s constitutional government.

    Free from constitutional restraint, and following your criminal example, military commanders deployed U.S. Army active duty combat troops into the small civilian community of Samson, Alabama last week in a demonstration of their newly received despotic, domestic police power.

    We come now to this reckoning. I accuse you and your military-political criminal assistants of TREASON. I name you and your military criminal associates as traitors. Your criminal ascension manifests a clear and present danger. You fundamentally changed our form of government. The Constitution no longer works.

    Confident holding your silent agreement and admission, I identify you as a foreign born domestic enemy.

    My sworn duty Mr. Obama is to stand against what you stand for. You are not my president. You are not my commander in chief.

    Obedient to the Constitution in submission of this criminal accusation I remain steadfast, and

    Born fighting,
    /s/ (notarized)
    Walter Francis Fitzpatrick, III
    United States Naval Academy, Class of 1975

  42. Ah, Walter Fitzpatrick (Ret.). Another “birther” friend of Orly Taitz, the California dentist/lawyer/nutjob. Mr. Fitzpatrick is well admired by the Holocaust Museum killer and other inhabitants of the planet Delusion. He has spent 20 years inventing and describing conspiracies. This is merely the latest. I trust that the Naval Academy has substantially improved its psychological screening program since Mr. Fitzpatrick’s admission.

  43. The document Obama presents as his ‘birth certificate’ is not acceptable as proof even in Hawaii where he claims to have been born. The evidence mounts that Obama is not an American citizen.

    Obama is a domestic enemy, traitor, mass murderer.

  44. ravin, the court relies on the record. The record is created by the parties. The clerk files documents received from the court or from the attorneys in the case. Although clerks handle all sorts of administrative queries from lawyers and their staff, an attorney is charged with knowing the rules of procedure, docketing deadlines and meeting them. If an attorney is uncertain of a filing deadline, prudence dictates that he or she examine the court file to ascertain the date from which the appeal period runs. This is not theoretical mathematics. But screw ups happen. Sometimes they are excused and sometimes not. If a lawyer does screw up, it is incumbent upon him or her to file an appropriate motion candidly describing the mistake and legal authority for excusing it.

  45. Grand Juries Cite Obama for Ineligibility, Treason
    Hundreds of ‘presentments’ being handed to prosecutors

    Posted: May 21, 2009 12:00 am Eastern

    By Bob Unruh
    © 2009 WorldNetDaily

    Hundreds of “presentments” – or accusations assembled by citizen grand juries – are scheduled to be given to courts, sheriffs, prosecutors, judges and legislators across the United States by July 4 alleging that Barack Obama is ineligible to be president and his occupancy in the Oval Office constitutes treason.

    More at: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98697

  46. BVM, did it ever occur to you that Mr. Fitzpatrick’s obsessions may be related to his court martial conviction for theft 20 years ago? Or that he was forced to resign from the Navy as a result of that conviction? He is a bitter old man with nothing better to do than to rail against the injustice of it all. And to add to the defilement of this country, a black man is now Commander in Chief! My God, if that is not proof of treason somewhere, what is?

  47. “From: Walter Francis Fitzpatrick, III, United States Navy Retired”

    BVM,
    Your support of an anti-black, anti-Jewish bigot’s ravings could be taken as indicating your own prejudices. Is that the case?

  48. BVM, I note your quote from world.net, a less than reliable source of anything. But to the point, so-called “citizen grand juries” are to the judicial system what lynch mobs are to law enforcement, illegitimate groups of individuals who assume powers they don’t have in order to oppose laws they don’t like. You will recall that Mr. von Brunn spent a number of years in prison for attempting to make a “citizen’s arrest” of members of the Federal Reserve Board. Your patriotic heroes appear to be cut from the same cloth. Whether your hatred is directed at blacks, Jews, Catholics, chlorination of drinking water, mandatory licensing of hand guns or the proliferation of surf boards on the West Coast, there is a posse waiting to be enlisted. You might find a more sympathetic audience for your contrivances at sites which are less intellectually demanding. Try “whites-am-us.duh.”

  49. From me:
    “GWLSM,
    I worry about that too, but I never thought that the President was nearly as left wing as I’d prefer.”

    From Jill:
    “Mike S.,
    I just can’t see how to describe Obama as a left wing politician, fighting with those in his own party who are more centrist and right wing. His policies are, in the main, quite right wing.”

    Jill,
    My statement wasn’t that President Obama was left wing, but that my preferences are. I’ve never seen President Obama as anything but a centrist and in this his current policies are more or less as he advertised.

    This country has been pushed so far to the right in the last 40 years by WF Buckley, his minions and their capture of media control that the old left/right definitions don’t mean much. Everett M. Dirkson, the Republican Senate leader under Eisenhower, was considered a conservative then and would be considered a liberal today. Another way to see it is how the Right Wing followers truly believe the Nazi’s were socialists.

    This is the problem I’ve been alluding to in most of my posts on politics. Kucinich, who was easily the most “far left” of the Democratic candidates, would have only been a mainstream liberal in the 50’s. The problem we face on the Left is how to restore the balance. This will take time and effort. If a candidate with my point of view and probably yours had run that candidate would have been badly defeated, because despite hopeful signs the people aren’t there yet. My agenda has always been and remains moving the dialogue back to its former parameters. Perhaps yours is different in that you are less of an incrementalist then I am.

    Politically I have a good sense as to where you are coming from and in terms of the political spectrum you are no further out left than I am. Our differences relate to strategy and to my sense of how things need to be done to really create a humane world.

  50. shalva,
    Hi there. Nice to see our newest troll. Thank you for your attention and your comments. Every time you log on here you increase the number of this sites internet “hits,” which in turn increases its’ viability and popularity. Thank you sincerely for your effort in this matter. Please keep up your good work.

  51. BVM,

    I am unable to find a complete biography of LCDR Fitzpatrick. Please provide a link for me. On his own website, he only gives a very brief mention of his curriculum vitae.

    Do you know if he was ever in trouble with the law?

    Please provide a link for me since posting innumerable links here regarding the same old subjects seems to be that which you are best at providing.

  52. Mike S writes: BVM,
    Your support of an anti-black, anti-Jewish bigot’s ravings could be taken as indicating your own prejudices. Is that the case?

    Mike. I hate to be the one to issue the wake-up call. BVM, people like BVM have a point of view that cannot be penetrated by facts or common sense.

    Consider the “birthers” who are they and where did they come from? I think I figured it out early this morning watching West Wing re-runs. They are the Vince Foster people. Remember them? the anti-Clinton lunatics who were convinced that Foster was murdered by the Clintons? who then ussed death threats against Chelsea?
    The left has always pulled the lunatics out of the shadows like coffee cake crumbs left on your kitchen counter attracts cockroaches. feed them, don’t feed them.. it’s up to you.

  53. Mike A writes: BVM, I note your quote from world.net, a less than reliable source of anything. But to the point, so-called “citizen grand juries” are to the judicial system what lynch mobs are to law enforcement, illegitimate groups of individuals who assume powers they don’t have in order to oppose laws they don’t like. You will recall that Mr. von Brunn spent a number of years in prison for attempting to make a “citizen’s arrest” of members of the Federal Reserve Board. Your patriotic heroes appear to be cut from the same cloth. Whether your hatred is directed at blacks, Jews, Catholics, chlorination of drinking water, mandatory licensing of hand guns or the proliferation of surf boards on the West Coast, there is a posse waiting to be enlisted. You might find a more sympathetic audience for your contrivances at sites which are less intellectually demanding. Try “whites-am-us.duh.”

    me: let ’em knock themselves out with their paranoid calling for trials and lawsuits. let them go bankrupt doing so. they will win nothing and for their efforts become more frustrated. yeah, I know that contributes to their fear and hatred and paranoia but I can’t think of anything I like better than seeing and hearing these people out loud in the light of day where they can make fools of themselves and hopefully break a few federal hate crimes laws that put their asses in prison. beats meetings in dark basements surrounded by weapons and nazi memorabilia. on the other hand, doesn’t everyone need a little stable plastic C-4 for emergencies?

  54. “Mike. I hate to be the one to issue the wake-up call. BVM, people like BVM have a point of view that cannot be penetrated by facts or common sense.”

    GWLSM,
    I know that but when I’ve baited him in the past he sometimes goes away for a little while.

  55. mike s writes: GWLSM,
    I know that but when I’ve baited him in the past he sometimes goes away for a little while.

    me: you think? okay. I’ll give it a whirl.

  56. Mike S.,

    I agree that right and left sure ain’t what they used to be! When people were asked to check off the issues and solutions that were most important to them, they lined up with Kucinich, yet he is not allowed to be considered a viable candidate. That is frustrating.

  57. Whats-her-name is another one of these idiots who can’t figure out that you don’t put innocent people in jail! Just what we DO NOT need on the Court!

  58. I don’t have time to answer all these asinine suggestions and questions here which are trying to distract from the issue that Obama is a criminal and should not have been elected. Either a few people on this blog choose not to see it or don’t have the logic to get the truth.

    I don’t care if some of them are black, white, Jew, commie or pinkos – the mass murderers / War Criminals like Obama, Biden, Bush and Cheney, et al need to be arrested and stopped from killing and maiming.

  59. Obama’s ‘Certification of Live Birth’ (COLB) is not a birth certificate.

    His fraudulent Hawaiian COLB is not accepted as proof even in Hawaii where Obama claims to have been born.

    Obama has had all his records sealed. What is he hiding?One thing he can’t hide – the Obots (Obama Robots) are fools.

    Obama by his real names: Usurper, Traitor, Wall Street Stooge, National Socialist, Fascist, Pathological Liar and above all, War Criminal – Mass Murderer.

  60. Gore Vidal was dead right when he said that America is ruled by a single party, the Property Party which has two right wings called Republican and Democrat. This is the strategy by which the ruling elite maintains control while preserving an appearance of democracy. Clinton, Bush and Obama, are three right wing presidents one after the other pushing the US Supreme court further to the right.

    The GOP is cooperating with Obama by protesting against his choice of Sotomayor so that those who voted for the Democratcs don’t realize how right wing Sotomayor is.

  61. Sotomayor is a traitor to America. She should be calling for Obama’s arrest on innumerable charges.

    Obama is one of the biggest criminals of world history and most all the members of the judicial system and mainstream media are proving to be sell-out whores.

  62. Then we need the Pirate Party to oppose the Property Party. The Pirate party just won a few in the EU! Here’s their principles: My favorite: “We must pull the emergency brake on the runaway train towards a society we do not want. Terrorists may attack the open society, but only governments can abolish it. The Pirate Party wants to prevent that from happening.”

    Introduction to Politics and Principles

    The Pirate Party wants to fundamentally reform copyright law, get rid of the patent system, and ensure that citizens’ rights to privacy are respected. With this agenda, and only this, we are making a bid for representation in the European and Swedish parliaments.

    …The Pirate Party only has three issues on its agenda:
    Reform of copyright law

    The official aim of the copyright system has always been to find a balance in order to promote culture being created and spread. Today that balance has been completely lost, to a point where the copyright laws severely restrict the very thing they are supposed to promote. The Pirate Party wants to restore the balance in the copyright legislation.

    All non-commercial copying and use should be completely free. File sharing and p2p networking should be encouraged rather than criminalized. Culture and knowledge are good things, that increase in value the more they are shared. The Internet could become the greatest public library ever created.

    The monopoly for the copyright holder to exploit an aesthetic work commercially should be limited to five years after publication. Today’s copyright terms are simply absurd. Nobody needs to make money seventy years after he is dead. No film studio or record company bases its investment decisions on the off-chance that the product would be of interest to anyone a hundred years in the future. The commercial life of cultural works is staggeringly short in today’s world. If you haven’t made your money back in the first one or two years, you never will. A five years copyright term for commercial use is more than enough. Non-commercial use should be free from day one.

    We also want a complete ban on DRM technologies, and on contract clauses that aim to restrict the consumers’ legal rights in this area. There is no point in restoring balance and reason to the legislation, if at the same time we continue to allow the big media companies to both write and enforce their own arbitrary laws.
    An abolished patent system

    Pharmaceutical patents kill people in third world countries every day. They hamper possibly life saving research by forcing scientists to lock up their findings pending patent application, instead of sharing them with the rest of the scientific community. The latest example of this is the bird flu virus, where not even the threat of a global pandemic can make research institutions forgo their chance to make a killing on patents.

    The Pirate Party has a constructive and reasoned proposal for an alternative to pharmaceutical patents. It would not only solve these problems, but also give more money to pharmaceutical research, while still cutting public spending on medicines in half. This is something we would like to discuss on a European level.

    Patents in other areas range from the morally repulsive (like patents on living organisms) through the seriously harmful (patents on software and business methods) to the merely pointless (patents in the mature manufacturing industries)…

    Respect for the right to privacy

    Following the 9/11 event in the US, Europe has allowed itself to be swept along in a panic reaction to try to end all evil by increasing the level of surveillance and control over the entire population. We Europeans should know better. It is not twenty years since the fall of the Berlin Wall, and there are plenty of other horrific examples of surveillance-gone-wrong in Europe’s modern history.

    The arguments for each step on the road to the surveillance state may sound ever so convincing. But we Europeans know from experience where that road leads, and it is not somewhere we want to go.

    We must pull the emergency brake on the runaway train towards a society we do not want. Terrorists may attack the open society, but only governments can abolish it. The Pirate Party wants to prevent that from happening.

    Come talk to us in the English part of our forums!

    Our full Declaration of Principles is available in PDF format and in OpenDocument format (version 3.2, 5 pages).

    Also see an alternative to pharmaceutical patents.
    ‹ Piratska Partija, Dekleracija Principa 3.2 uppПиратска Партия в Швеция Декларация на Принципите 3.0 ›

    Ämnesområden: International | english | International | principles

  63. To be more specific if Sotomayor, the Supreme Fools or (federal puppet judges) had any morals they would be arresting hundreds in our government of both the Democratic and Republican perversions.

    “America is both financially and morally bankrupt”. The United States of America is an outlaw government likened to Nazi Germany in it’s early stages. We see what happened to Nazi Germany. The world is not standing by. Their security is in jeopardy and they are preparing to charge and prosecute some of the U.S. Governmental Nazis. 155 countries see the U.S. Government as War Criminals.

  64. Bush, Cheney, Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reid, McCain, H. Clinton, Feinstein, Leahy, Hatch, Schumer, Rockefeller, Levin, Lieberman, Specter, Cornyn, Byrd, Dodd, hundreds more in Congress and other co-conspirators have violated the same law used to prosecute and convict the Nazis at the Nuremberg Trials.

  65. A start in the U.S. indictments:

    1. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace

    2. Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace

    3. War crimes

    4. Crimes against humanity

  66. BuenaVistaMall.com

    “I don’t have time to answer all these asinine suggestions and questions here which are trying to distract from the issue that Obama is a criminal and should not have been elected.”
    _________

    Therefore, all you are doing is spamming this blawg with your website and I do not understand why you are allowed to do so.

  67. Usurper Obama has nominated Sotomayer for the Supreme Fools. He cannot legally do that. He is an imposter.

    Why won’t Obama produce his long-form birth certificate? Why has Obama sealed his school and passport records? Reason leads me to believe he is not a U.S. Citizen and is ineligible to be president of the U.S. He from the beginning was ineligible in that his father was not a U.S. Citizen which caused Obama not to be a ‘Natural Born Citizen’.

    He should not have been on the ballot because he was a U.S. War Criminal years before the election.

    He is guilty of multiple counts of fraud in his pretense to be a U.S. Senator.

  68. BuenaVistaMall.com,

    I dislike and distrust many of Mr. Obama’s actions more than any other regular poster within this blawg. However, your incessant, repetitive postings on the same subjects do not add to the points against Obama; they just expose you as an ignorant ideologue who is not interested in facts or with supporting your protestations with factual materials or reasoned arguments.

  69. Author: http://BuenaVistaMall.com
    Comment:
    These legal simpletons don’t even know how to prove a birth certificate claim

    me: but you do,right? tell us. what are your qualifications?have you ever seen a birth certificate from a state other than your own. what would you do if someone spread a rumor that your birth certificate was phony? how would you go about authenticating it?

    one question: do you think that the Clintons murdered Vince Foster? That Elvis is alive?

  70. BVM, if you don’t attach any importance to opinions on this site, why in the world do you waste your time reading them? I can assure you that you are not providing an educational service to any of the rest of us. Isn’t this a bit of a lose-lose situation, or is your goal simply to vent your anger in as annoying a manner as possible?

  71. BVM, I just read the balance of your posts on this thread, and it appears that you are a few coconuts shy of a plantation. BTW, to be a natural born citizen of this country does not mean that either of your parents has to be. Your understanding of the law is as questionable as your hold on reality. Get a basic education. Then come back and talk to the adults.

  72. This is posted for all interested readers, because of all the stuff that has been posted here on the birth issue. This site had a thorough discussion of the natural born arguments for both McCain and Obama last year, and they can be found by means of the site’s search engine.

    The short answer to the question “Where’s the birth certificate?’ is that Obama has produced it, that it is on the web for all to view, that it is valid and legal and not forged, and that the birthers are too blind or willfully resistant to looking at it. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html. At factcheck.org, you can look at both sides of the certificate and see both sides of the raised seal.

    The Obama birth certificate flap is an urban legend, a fairy tale, a false story that has been exposed repeatedly by snopes.com and others: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

    The Hawaii Certification of Live Birth is a valid certificate that was signed by the responsible Hawaii state officials, based on their examination of official state records. If you think it was not valid, you have to assume a vast conspiracy by state officials who are risking their livelihoods and long jail terms for perjury. It is a valid legal birth certificate for all purposes in Hawaii and elsewhere.

    The Certification of Live Birth can also be viewed online at: http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg.

    QUOTE: Update Nov. 1: The Associated Press quoted Chiyome Fukino as saying that both she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

    Fukino also was quoted by several other news organizations. The Honolulu Advertiser quoted Fukino as saying the agency had been bombarded by requests, and that the registrar of statistics had even been called in at home in the middle of the night.

    Honolulu Advertiser, Nov. 1 2008: “This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.” . . . Will this be enough to quiet the doubters? “I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”

    Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”
    UNQUOTE, Source: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

    Both Hawaii newspapers published announcements of his birth on August 4, 1961:
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/obamabirth.php.To believe these birthers, you have to believe that Obama supporters climbed into a time machine and planted birth announcements in both papers back in 1961.

    The email that Obama attended college on a foreign student Fulbright was an April Fools joke:
    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_a_smoking_gun_been_found_to.html . It has taken in a lot of gullible folks.

    When the certificate was made public, the critics immediately charged that it was a forgery. These charges have all been discredited. Now they claim they want the long-form or vault copy without ever describing what they mean. It doesn’t matter how many documents Obama may release. They will all show birth in Hawaii in 1961. But charges of forgery will greet any and all further document releases. It will become an infinite regression. The birthers will just say the new records are forgeries. They will never admit the truth.

    It is impossible to prove a negative. Nothing will ever convince the irrational doubters. This is probably because they are not really concerned about the Constitution. They are just feeding the frenzy of hatred for Obama.

    So the COLB is an official record. It is the same type of official record that anyone else would file for proof of citizenship anywhere in the country. One especially specious argument is that Hawaii will issue and official COLB for individuals born outside Hawaii. I looked that up. Hawaii will issue such a certificate, but it will certify that the person was born elsewhere, not that the person was born in Hawaii.

    So those are the facts. As I have posted before, at this site the unsupported false allegations of the trolls are challenged promptly.

    Finally, Rush Limbaugh claimed that neither God nor Obama has a birth certificate. Well, Obama has one. Does Rush? Rush could only know about God’s birth certificate if he has spoken to God directly, lately.

  73. VT,

    I am sorry, you must have conjured up this information. Next somebody will probably say that if McCain had won that he could not be president because he was not born on American (US) soil. He was birthed by parents that were out of the country in Panama at the time. But he was not birthed here, so he must be a foreigner. By the way Foreigner had a pretty good band while they were together.

  74. Author: Patty C
    Comment:
    No one with credibility ever suggested the Clintons murdered Vince – ever.

    Shut up, GWLSM…

    me: shut up? are you being sarcastic or what? you know, I’ve stayed out of the personal hoo-ha going on here because I really thought that at the heart of discussion was a kernel of civility.
    my question about the Clintons and Vince Foster had to do with a certain element in the darker corners of the culture that seems to be shared by the same sort of people who believe Obama is not American and rant about the validity of his birth certificate. none of it was a personal insult or attack.

    YOu don’t want to start this with me. not really.

  75. Patty,
    “And she, Jill, refuses to ‘get off it already’ still.”

    That would apply to you as well.

    I didn’t post on the nip and tuck topic, but here I’m going to say that I wouldn’t mind a change to a message board format so that I might be able to put Patty C on ignore.

    Your incessant nastiness is just uncalled for.

  76. No, it is called for and I will keep displaying it when warranted.

    Put me down for that “IGNORE” feature as well with regard to more than a few non-turlees. It didn’t used to be unpleasant here and we were fine, thank you.

    There are more than a few, now, I’d be delighted to ignore. Or rather, there are only a few left who’s posts I still continue to enjoy.

    I’ve watched this blawg turn to crap, more and more, and I know when it happened, why, and precisely who to blame.

    And it’s not JT.

  77. anon wrote:

    “Questions for anyone: There is a group known as the LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit), I believe. As I understand it, the organization receives public funding, but does not respond to FOIA requests related to some kind of exemption. Is this true? Other thoughts?” End Quote}
    ______________________

    The LEIU is not a *Federal* LE Agency so they are not subject to FOIA requests. I would assume that they *might* be subject to individual State Public Records Act requests, although I am not clear about that since I have not done any research.
    ______________________

    Quotes from:

    http://leiu-homepage.org/about/historyPurpose.php

    {Quote: Although the LEIU Constitution and Bylaws restrict the dissemination of information to non-member law enforcement agencies, it is the policy of the LEIU that every member shall assist any law enforcement agency making a valid request concerning organized crime/gangs/terrorism. This exchange of criminal intelligence information is completed only after establishing a “right to know” and a “need to know”. This policy provides for the security of the information and protects the privacy of individuals. End Quote}

  78. Patty writes: It didn’t used to be unpleasant here and we were fine, thank you.

    There are more than a few, now, I’d be delighted to ignore. Or rather, there are only a few left who’s posts I still continue to enjoy.

    I’ve watched this blawg turn to crap, more and more, and I know when it happened, why, and precisely who to blame.

    me: when you tell people to shut up and generally insult them for having ideas that differ from yours then you are contributing to the general unpleasantness.
    enjoy or not. blame or not. just make sure that you don’t behave in ways that you find objectionable in others lest you seem a fool. or not.

  79. me: when you tell people to shut up and generally insult them for having ideas that differ from yours then you are contributing to the general unpleasantness.
    enjoy or not. blame or not. just make sure that you don’t behave in ways that you

    That’s not what I do.

  80. me: when you tell people to shut up and generally insult them for having ideas that differ from yours then you are contributing to the general unpleasantness.
    enjoy or not. blame or not. just make sure that you don’t behave in ways that you

    That’s not what I do.

    And your stating it doesn’t make it so, either.

  81. Jill and all other interested,

    I believe that John Yoo is going to stand trial for being the author and interpreter of the torture memo. I saw a blurb in the Dallas Morning News.

  82. Found the link:

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gnOvtUV8wKxu1PA_F3rlTPRH3rhgD98Q08Q00

    Back to Google News
    Judge rules terrorist can sue over torture memos

    By DON THOMPSON –

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — A convicted terrorist can sue a former Bush administration lawyer for drafting the legal theories that led to his alleged torture, ruled a federal judge has ruled who said he was trying to balance a clash between war and the defense of personal freedoms.

    The order by U.S. District Judge Jeffrey White of San Francisco is the first time a government lawyer has been held potentially liable for the abuse of detainees.

    White refused to dismiss Jose Padilla’s lawsuit against former senior Justice Department official John Yoo on Friday. . . .

  83. Thanks A.Y.,

    From the film, Torturing Democracy, even with what is now known, it is clear that Yoo played a pivital role in the justification of torture and even specific acts if torture that the administration ordered.

    I hope we get a full examination of Yoo’s actions but I believe there is enough out now for Padilla to prove his contention. He was, from all accounts, subjected to torture that Yoo outlined/”justified” and I’m glad this lawsuit is proceeding.

  84. What is Obama hiding?

    He has paid about a million dollars (our money?) for teams of lawyers to seal and cover-up most all of his school and other records. What is he hiding?

    Obama: Where is the Birth Certificate?

  85. “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” by Abraham Lincoln.

    Obama: you aren’t fooling all the people all the time.

    Hawaii won’t accept Obama’s ‘birth certificate’ as proof. I don’t accept it either. Only a fool would. Obama is an illegal alien and criminal.

    Come into the U.S. circus of fraud and see Obama ‘The Liar’ as his web of lies starts to unravel and people see him for what he really is.

  86. Fact: Hawaii does accept Obama’s certificate as proof. It was issued by the State of Hawaii, attested to by two Hawaii State Officials, in accordance with Hawaii statae laws, and is valid everywhere.

    A lie can be repeated over and over again, but the claim that the certificate is invalid is still a lie.

    We have little tolerance for that kind of misinformation at the Turley site.

  87. “The qualifications for the Hawaiian Home Lands program require a certified copy of a standard birth certificate – also known as the “long-form certificate” filled out in the hospital and including details such as the name of the hospital and the attending physician.”

    ‘NOT’ a Certification of Live Birth (COLB) as presented by Obama.

    Examples of both;

    1. http://buenavistamall.com/COLB.jpg

    2. http://buenavistamall.com/HIbirthcertificate.jpg

    See the differences in the COLB and a real Hawaiian birth certificate?

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100451

  88. Sorry, BVM, that is a blatant evasion.

    You can use the search function to find JT’s postings on the Obama and McCain natural born citizen issue.

    Where is the evidence?

  89. “Hawaii does not accept Obama’s fraudulent ‘birth certificate’…”(BVM)
    ——————————————————————-

    BVM,

    Please show detailed evidence of this claim as Vince requested. Please do not change the subject but present your evidence. If you are certain that Hawaii does not accept Obama’s birth certificate then it should not be a problem for you to back up this claim with actual evidence. If you are unwilling to show evidence for this claim then I and others will assume you are not serious in making it.

  90. Here is an update about the case against Yoo from Glenn Greenwald.

    “I hope to write more about this with time permitting, but this decision (.pdf) by Bush 43-appointed federal Judge Jeffrey White from Friday — refusing to dismiss a lawsuit brought by Jose Padilla against John Yoo, which alleges that Yoo violated numerous constitutional rights of Padilla’s by virtue of his torture and other memos — is both extremely significant and very well-reasoned. Ironically, the Obama DOJ, in representing Yoo, raised many of Yoo’s defining legal theories in order to argue for dismissal of the lawsuit (see p. 22: the Executive is vested with war-related power and the judiciary has no role to play in such matters; judges should defer to the President; what was done to Padilla is too secret to allow judicial review, etc.). It was those Yooian theories that were resoundingly rejected by Judge White, who held that the brutal, inhumane treatment to which Padilla alleges he was subjected plainly constitutes serious violations of his Constitutional rights and that Yoo’s memos can be shown to be responsible for those violations.

    Judge White’s systematic rejection of the arguments once made by the Bush DOJ — and now made by the Obama DOJ — to prevent courts from adjudicating the legality of presidential actions was prefaced with this citation to the Federalist Papers:

    (6) As a reminder: as I wrote about on Thursday, the ACLU now has a superb new website and new project to bring about accountability for torture. There will be many new updates and developments from there shortly.”

  91. A ‘Certification of Live Birth’ (COLB), as presented by Obama, is not proof of birth in a real Hawaiian court or any real court.

    See the difference in a COLB and Hawaiian birth certificate;

    © 2009 WorldNetDaily
    WASHINGTON – The Hawaiian certification of live birth Barack Obama posted on his campaign website and distributed to select news organizations as proof he was a “natural born citizen” would not be accepted as a “birth certificate” even for some Hawaiian state government eligibility issues, WND has learned.

    The investigation follows a Honolulu Star Bulletin column Saturday, which quotes a state Department of Health spokeswoman as saying the state’s current certification of live birth is recognized “as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements.”

    The website of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands, however, states clearly the certification of live birth touted by the Obama campaign, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs and a host of other Obama defenders is not acceptable as a form of identification to qualify under this program.

    As WND has reported, certifications of live birth were widely issued to Hawaiians born in foreign countries in 1961, the year Obama was born.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100451

  92. We have little tolerance for misinformation at the Turley site. The fact is that Obama’s COLB is not proof of birth in Hawaii or anywhere. It is another Obama lie.
    The following is misinformation.

    ———————–
    Vince Treacy

    Fact: Hawaii does accept Obama’s certificate as proof. It was issued by the State of Hawaii, attested to by two Hawaii State Officials, in accordance with Hawaii statae laws, and is valid everywhere.

  93. So far you have avoided posting evidence by claimin you are unable to post it, although you posts come through just fine. You then repeat your dodge. I therefore conclude you have no evidence to support your claim.

    “Hawaii does not accept Obama’s fraudulent ‘birth certificate’…”(BVM)
    ——————————————————————-

    BVM,

    Please show detailed evidence of this claim as Vince requested. Please do not change the subject but present your evidence. If you are certain that Hawaii does not accept Obama’s birth certificate then it should not be a problem for you to back up this claim with actual evidence. If you are unwilling to show evidence for this claim then I and others will assume you are not serious in making it.

  94. As I go back through some of the posts of past I see Vince Treacy has been putting out quite a bit of misinformation about Obama. I wouldn’t believe much of anything Vince Treacy has to say about Obama. Many of you are lost in lies.

    JT: Is Obama’s COLB proof of birth?

    The Hawaiian Government Dept. of Hawaiian Home Lands requires a certified copy of Certificate of Birth. They will not accept Obama’s Certification of Live Birth (COLB.

    JT is moderating my evidence. JT: why are you allowing these people to labor under all the Obama lies of misinformation?

  95. Which best characterizes this blawg:

    #1) VOTED THE #1 LEGAL THEORY AND LAW PROFESSOR BLOG OF THE TOP 100 LEGAL BLOGS BY THE ABA JOURNAL

    Or

    #2) “I’ve watched this blawg turn to crap, more and more” quoted from the post above by longtime “Turlee” Patty C

    We must all think about what we want from and *for* this blawg and the respect to which we demonstrate towards Professor Turley by our postings herein.

    Will the upcoming 2009, 3rd Annual ABA Journal Blawg 100 still find this blawg as the Best Blog in Legal Theory, as referenced in # 1 above; or in #2 (pun intended)?

  96. JT:

    Even though you are not posting some of my comments I don’t mean to be ungrateful for your freedom of site and torture of war crimes stand but I wish you would make this proof of birth opinion for these people. It would be so easy for you to show Obama as he really is.

    I do admire that you are bucking the system as much as you do and letting me do same. Thanks.

  97. I took some time to review all of bvm’s claims about Obama’s birth certificate on this thread:

    ‘The document Obama presents as his ‘birth certificate’ is not acceptable as proof in Hawaii where he claims to have been born. “Hawaii Home Lands won’t take it, but Obama insists it certifies him to be Commander-in-Chief.” The evidence mounts that Obama is not even an American citizen.”

    “The document Obama presents as his ‘birth certificate’ is not acceptable as proof even in Hawaii where he claims to have been born. The evidence mounts that Obama is not an American citizen. “

    “His fraudulent Hawaiian COLB is not accepted as proof even in Hawaii where Obama claims to have been born.”

    “JT: Does the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accept Obama’s COLB as proof of birth?”

    “The Hawaiian Government Dept. of Hawaiian Home Lands requires a certified copy of Certificate of Birth. They will not accept Obama’s Certification of Live Birth (COLB).”

    The common theme seems to be that an official, valid legal Hawaiian COLB is not acceptable by one specific department of the State’s government, the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands (DHHL) This point, however, is irrelevant to the question of Obama’s eligibility for the Presidency of the United States. A COLB form is not sufficient evidence for the DHHL because an applicant must also prove at least 50% native Hawaiian ancestry to qualify for a homestead in the land held in trust by the Department.

    Anyone here can search wiki for extensive information on the Hawaiian Homelands, established first in 1921 by the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act, and still in effect as amended. It set aside land in Hawaii in trust for homesteading by native Hawaiians, that is the kanakas or indigenous Polynesian people of Hawaii or their descendants. Wiki notes that the Act included a controversial definition of “Native Hawaiians” as persons with 50 % or more Hawaiian blood.

    QUOTE ON: Hawaiian Homes Commission Act

    The legal basis for the establishment of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands (DHHL) is the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act, 1920, as amended (HHCA). Passed by Congress and signed into law by President Warren Harding on July 9, 1921 (chapter 42, 42 Stat. 108), the HHCA provides for the rehabilitation of the native Hawaiian people through a government-sponsored homesteading program. Native Hawaiians are defined as individuals having at least 50 percent Hawaiian blood.

    Pursuant to provisions of the HHCA, the Department provides direct benefits to native Hawaiians in the form of 99-year homestead leases at an annual rental of $1. In 1990, the Legislature authorized the Department to extend leases for an aggregate term not to exceed 199 years (Act 305, Session Laws of Hawaii 1990; section 208, HHCA). Homestead leases are for residential, agricultural, or pastoral purposes. Aquacultural leases are also authorized, but none have been awarded to date. The intent of the homesteading program is to provide for economic self-sufficiency of native Hawaiians through the provision of land.

    Other benefits provided by the HHCA include financial assistance through direct loans or loan guarantees for home construction, replacement, or repair, and for the development of farms and ranches; technical assistance to farmers and ranchers; and the operation of water systems.

    UNQUOTE Source: http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/laws, official site of DHHL.

    The Department advises applicants how prove their genealogy in order to qualify: “At the end of this document there is a list of state agencies where you can go for help with your research. Other sources include the state libraries; the LDS Family History Centers, operated by the Mormon Church; hospitals; schools; religious organizations; and reputable genealogists.”

    Obama is clearly not a native Hawaiian, has never claimed to be one, would never qualify for a homestead, and would never have to apply for one. But those facts are not relevant to his qualifications to be President.

    So all that bvm can establish is that neither Obama nor anyone else born in Hawaii can qualify for home lands homesteads merely by presenting an Certification of Live Birth, even if that COLB is completely and totally valid and legal in all respects. Persons born in Hawaii cannot qualify unless they can also establish that they can further establish proof of at least 50% Hawaiian ancestry. At the same time, all persons born in Hawaii, one of the 50 United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States, and as citizens by birth are eligible to serve as President.

    I hope this clears up bvm’s confusion about the requirements of the Department of Hawaiian Home Lands and the reasons why the COLB alone is not sufficient for their purposes.

  98. BVM’s last post said “As I go back through some of the posts of past I see Vince Treacy has been putting out quite a bit of misinformation about Obama. I wouldn’t believe much of anything Vince Treacy has to say about Obama.”

    Perhaps any specific items of “misinformation” could be pointed out and identified so that I could check them out and respond to the accusation. Even Boyle over at Bio caught me out on a misquote of the 19th Amendment, and I was glad to thank him for the correction. Other than that, I will have to let my posts stand as written.

  99. By the way, a lot of people say that Obama should release whatever documents the birthers want so that the controversy will go away.

    But they are not going away, ever, according to a statement linked to bvm’s site:

    QUOTE ON:
    21. If President Obama’s birth certificate shows conclusively that he was born in Hawaii, would it end the eligibility controversy?

    Definitely not! President Obama has stated publicly that his father was not a U.S. citizen. According to the birthers’ understanding of history and law, if his father was not a U.S. citizen, President Obama cannot be a Constitutional natural born citizen, regardless of where he might have been born. UNQUOTE

    Source:
    http://people.mags.net/tonchen/birthers.htm#ref20

    So there you are. They are never going to let it go.

  100. If you read a selection of BVM’s posts, you will recognize that he never offers any proof for any of his assertions. He will simply keep repeating them because he has developed on obsession with Obama, or with the fact that Obama was elected, a fact which he is unable to accept psychologically. Sadly, we have seen plenty of examples of where that can lead.

  101. Mike A writes:

    If you read a selection of BVM’s posts, you will recognize that he never offers any proof for any of his assertions. He will simply keep repeating them because he has developed on obsession with Obama, or with the fact that Obama was elected, a fact which he is unable to accept psychologically. Sadly, we have seen plenty of examples of where that can lead.

    me: nothing like a good obsession to liven up the day and in this way BVM is being true to the core principles of being obsessed. latch on to one thing and never let go. facts will never get in the way and neither will discussion that seeks to broaden the topic. proof is unnecessary. the rant is distilled into paranoid thinking and anyone who seeks to alter this is guilty of being a participant in the cover-up.
    these birthers are not going anywhere and they will never change.
    the only interesting thing that makes BVM different is that s/he is calling on Prof Turley to provide evidence that s/he is right and that there is a vast conspiracy to defraud the American public.

  102. Hawaiian Home Lands is part of the Hawaiian Government and the Hawaiian Government will not accept Obama’s Certification of Live Birth (COLB).

    Obama can’t even get a drivers license in Hawaii with that fake COLB. To get a drivers licence in Hawaii a person has to have a certified birth certificate. They won’t accept a COLB.

    Prove it to yourself. Print a copy of Obama’s fraudulent COLB and take it and show it to the people at the drivers license office in your city. They won’t take that piece of trash. It is not a birth certificate.

    Are you still Obama’s and Treacy’s idiot?

  103. I know, I know facts don’t mean much to people like BVM, but I just can’t help it.

    From KITV in Honolulu, ABC and apparently a Hearst affiliate:

    http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html

    “There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.
    Fukino said she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said.

    Fukino said that no state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, ever instructed that Obama’s certificate be handled differently from any other.

  104. BVM

    “The Hawaiian certification of live birth Barack Obama posted on his campaign website and distributed to select news organizations as proof he was a “natural born citizen” would not be accepted as a “birth certificate” even for some Hawaiian state government eligibility issues, WND has learned.”
    ————-

    Birther Please. The fact that Hawaii has a screwed up bureaucracy doesn’t bear on the question. I’m in the same boat I think. I need a cert of live birth to renew my drivers license. I don’t have one so I have to send the state $15.00 to do the search and provide me a certified, computer generated copy.

    The MO. DMV says whatever doc I provide has to have a raised seal. The MO. dept dealing with birth cert. copies (different Bureau) hasn’t as yet replied to my email inquiries asking if a raised seal will be present on the copy they send. Knowing Missouri I’ve got a 50/50 chance (if I’m lucky) of not being totally screwed with this process. If I’m screwed on the BC I then have to apply for a passport ($100) and get an extension from the State just to drive and that assumes I can get a passport.

    That Hawaii has a bureaucracy that couldn’t find the Big Island with a map, flashlight and guide is dispositive of nothing but business as usual for bureaucracy. Anyone that has had to deal with State government in the last 6 years knows your argument is ridiculous.

  105. More unsupported allegations from bvm, still without substance or evidence. At his site, just about everyone except him is a war criminal or mass murderer.

    The birther charges are stirring up a feeding frenzy on the fringes. James Von Brunn, the 88-year-old man who is charged with shooting and killing a security police officer inside the Holocaust Museum in Washington thought that Barack Obama was not a citizen of the United States and had no right to the presidency. Josh Marshall posted a copy of Von Bruun’s internet views on the TPM website:
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/06/james-w-von-brunn-obama-is-missing.php?page=1

    Von Bruun hated Jewish people, African-American people, and the President. He denied that the Holocaust took place, and denied that Hitler killed anyone.

    He also believed that birth certification was a forgery. But the responsible Hawaiian State officials have verified that it is authentic and correctly represents the state records.

    These continued false and irresponsible charges serve only to feed the frenzy of hatred and malice, and may have already led to violence.

  106. The lack of comprehension here is amazingly pitiful.
    Einstein was right in his infinite human stupidity assessment.

    As to birth certificate, only believe multiple courts in examining it with many independent forensic experts in documents.

    Obama is a conspirator in mass murder and maiming of countless men, women and children. If you support or cover him in the evil God’s recompense will be on you and your children.

  107. “Obama is a conspirator in mass murder and maiming of countless men, women and children. If you support or cover him in the evil God’s recompense will be on you and your children.”

    ****************
    I am quite interested in BVM’s theory. I had no idea that people like him were looking into the question of whether, by repeating stupidity thousands of times, you can ultimately make it rational. So far the experiments don’t look promising but who knows, I suspect BVN is a great fan of alchemy too. He seems to like hopeless endeavors. Why look, he’s even got a mummy’s curse if you don’t believe him–and it applies to your children.

    Theological note to BVN: God doesn’t punish children for the sins of the father. That takes self-righteous ideologues who delude themselves into thinking they know the will of the creator of the Universe. Funny how that self-delusion bleeds into the rest of their thinking,too.

  108. “Obama is a conspirator in mass murder and maiming of countless men, women and children. If you support or cover him in the evil God’s recompense will be on you and your children.” – bvm

    This is just another incoherent posting by bvm, who has hijacked a thread on a Supreme Court nominee with repeated hate-filled, unsupported charges and allegations. That kind of stuff does not go unchallenged at the Turley site. In the meantime, interested readers can see that yet another independent source, Politifact.com, examined and verified the Certification: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

    Lindylou posted a news article quoting Dr Fukino, and the official statement can be read here: http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

    People should look at the statement printed at the bottom of the Certification: “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding [HRS 338-13(b), 338-19]” These are the facts. The Certification is true copy, and it is valid legal evidence of birth. The charges by von Bruun and all of the other birthers that its was forged are false. On its face, it would be evidence of the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961 in any court proceeding. It correctly describes what is in the official state records. The fact that the Home Lands office requires more evidence is based on the need to show 50% Hawaiian ancestry.

    It is no wonder that all the court challenges thus far have been dismissed, or are pending dismissal. bvm cannot name even one of the “multiple courts” that have rejected it. The forensic “experts” on the web are laughable, and have been refuted over and over again.

    The hatred of the birthers is so deep seated that they have admitted that no proof of birth will ever satisfy them. Even if it were proven to their satisfaction that Obama was born in the United States, they have admitted that they would still challenge his right to serve.

  109. I repeat: Obama is a supreme War Criminal – Mass Murderer. Only a complicit fool would want him as president. He should be arrested immediately. If our judicial system were not corrupt he would be. It appears we will have to depend on other countries or our military to arrest the War Criminals.

  110. Still no facts or evidence from bvm.

    Just hatred.

    Von Bruun’s website was also filled with hatred.

  111. BVM:

    “A word to the wise … don’t argue with fools.”

    *************

    Hey, that’s what I say and the reason I don’t direct my comments to you–except this one of course.

  112. Mespo,

    I agree with you and that to is why I have not responded. Now if I could just hold my fingers back from responding to others that act in equally foolish ways.

  113. AY:

    Well, we’re all war criminals according to the indictment of our friend BVM, so why respond when we are so obviously guilty. I suggest we all go on speaking tours defending our actions and mitigating our culpability. It seems the fashionable thing to do.

  114. Mespo,

    What about the speaking engagement fees, nominally 350,00; perks,cars, drivers, cash, more cash, food, additional cash; transportation; Dusenburg Limo to keep, 5 bedroom suite and isolated out of the way, a segway with 3 or 4 wheels, to and from speaking engagements. . . .

    Can you think of anymore?

  115. Obama and his followers condone torture which is evil.

    They murder and maim children which is evil.

    Obama for years has funded the murder and maiming of thousands of men, women and children

    Obama and his supporters are evil – like Hitler and the Nazis.

  116. “Buena Vista Mall is for Peace among all.”

    Buena Vista Mall is a site that supports the works of the Anti-Christ. It is a tool of Satan. One of its tactics is to use disinformation about the President to hide its’ own agenda. It’s agenda, a perfect Anti-Christ deception of words, is to seem to work for peace in the world, while all it really works for is Satan’s Dominion and the creation of Hell on Earth. The constant posting here is a tactic borrowed from the Nazi’s, also Satan’s followers, Propaganda Chief Joseph Goebbels who created the idea of “The Big Lie.” This simple tactic was to continue to make lying statements so often that after awhile people came to believe them. This has been proven by the BVM poster’s inability to back up his/her Devilish claims with evidence.

  117. Buena Vista Mall is just deranged enough to refer to him/her/itself in the third person and mean it without any irony.

    That about says it all.

    Now if he/she/it starts giving parade waves or shows up in a fancy horse drawn coach, then I say we have a suspect.

  118. Vince Treacy,
    While there are many lawyers on this site whose intelligence I deeply admire, I have to complement you on some of the outstanding qualities you possess. You are dogged in presenting your case, backing it thoroughly with evidence and holding your temper in the face of frustrating intransigence. It is a pleasure to read you.

  119. Buena Vista Mall,

    Worshiper of the Anti-Christ, proven by his/her own words and deeds. Also a war criminal, who tries to cover his/her own guilt by attacking others.

  120. Thanks, Michael. Also, thanks to Mike Appleton. We seem to be part of the very small real-name caucus here at the post, and thus subject to name calling.

  121. I am nonviolent and mean no harm to Obama and his baby killers. But not everyone in the world is like I am. Violence begats violence. Obama and his followers need to stop the murders and maiming. They need to repent and turn away from the evil.

  122. I have also visited BVM’s site. It purports to be a music company. However, it does not publicize anything it has produced, does not have an address, does not list the names of any of the principals of the alleged business and does not identify the owners of the web site or of the corporation, if it is in fact incorporated. It also solicits donations, without explaining its authority to solicit or the manner in which solicited funds are utilized. In essence, it is an entity without a birth certificate, which means that it is illegitimate.

  123. When one accuses another of committing a crime (and you have alleged the commission of many crimes), the identity of the accuser is a material consideration. Indeed, under the common law, a false accusation that another had acted criminally is libel per se and actionable. Experience teaches us that people act from all sorts of motives, not all of them honorable. Thus, anonymous accusations of crime are particularly questionable, and when the source is an anonymous website that is also engaged in anonymously soliciting donations from the public, the word fraud comes readily to mind.

    Finally, I would add that you know who I am, and I do not need to “make cover” for anyone. But if you are going to continually question the bona fides of someone else, perhaps you should give some thought to establishing your own.

  124. BVM, I knew you would ignore the substance of my post. Now I am even more suspicious that your web site is simply a scheme to support yourself through “donations.”

  125. BVM, once you establish the legitimacy of your web site, I’ll be happy to share my views. I wish to know about its “birth certificate” before I continue any exchange.

  126. BVM,

    So. Do you still beat your wife?

    I propose you answer that question before anyone here answers yours about war crimes.

    It’s called a “frame” for a reason, nitwit.

  127. I wrote up thread that I wondered why BVM was allowed to post ‘its’ nonsense. Then I remembered a comment Professor Turley made on Maddow’s program; we want people like BVM to speak out so that they show up on the radar screen.

    Thanks to those regulars who have the patience to counter BVM’s nonsensicalness. I must admit that the regulars’ replies have furnished me information about which I would have otherwise not known. Ergo, I guess there is value associated outside of BVM’s posts, although his illogical protestations from his bigoted soapbox remind me of a “fencepost tortoise”.
    ______________________

    “You know he didn’t get up there by himself, he definitely doesn’t belong up there, he doesn’t know what to do while he is up there, and you just have to wonder what kind of idiot put him up there in the first place.”
    ______________________

    A neat graphic is located here of a fencepost tortoise along with the full tale:

    http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?t=38541

  128. LEO, as I said in my first post in this thread, “This is posted for all interested readers, because of all the stuff that has been posted here on the birth issue.” It was not posted for bvm.

  129. “JT: What is your opinion of the Obama birth certificate issue?”

    Vince/BVM

    ——————

    Shouldn’t that question have preceded your inconsiderate moments already expressed ?

  130. That website guy has only gotten more hysterical as the time passes. Vince, Mike A., FFLEO, Buddha, Mespo and AY have made mincemeat of her/him. I just bait because I can see I’ve gotten to him.

    This is really one of the few times he’s even responded to me and boy did he respond. I like Mike A’s take on the legitimacy of his solicitations of support. Unfortunately and necessarily we have added to his/her site hits by seeing what’s up there.
    Unfortunately, as Gertrude Stein once said in another context:
    “There is no there….there.”

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