Poll: 58 Percent of Americans Want Underwear Bomber To Be Tortured

A new Rasmussen poll reveals that 58% of people polled would like to see Flight 253 bombing suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tortured for information. It is not just an indictment of our values but another byproduct of President Obama’s blocking of any independent investigation and prosecution of torture under the Bush Administration. By protecting Bush officials, Obama is reinforcing their argument that such measures are merely controversial and not crimes.

The poll asked individuals: “Should waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques be used to gain information from the suspected bomber?” The result was 58% yes, to only 30% who said no. I was asked the same question during this segment of The Situation Room.

What is astonishing is that this poll occurred virtually as people were leaving for churches and synagogues to celebrate the holidays. I guess that walking on water thing was just a prelude to waterboarding the Pharisees.

For the full story, click here.

160 thoughts on “Poll: 58 Percent of Americans Want Underwear Bomber To Be Tortured

  1. And your point is? Of course we want this filth tortured, both to extract the needed information from it and to punish it for endangering people in the course of its jihad.

  2. No, “we” don’t want this person tortured. 30% of Americans are against it. It is disgraceful that so many Americans are NOT so blinded by rage that they are willing to abandon all sense of moral decency. What happened to being a good and moral nation, a beacon of light to the world?

    Religious extremists see themselves as martyrs: torture only reinforces this for them. It’s not “punishment” in the long run–it reinforces their belief in the divine reward that is awaiting them.

    How does torture “punish” him, or people like him? Abandoning our principles and resorting to fear-induced madness is precisely the goal of terrorists. This guy didn’t even succeed in igniting his bomb but he still wounded our nation.

    Putting aside the moral repugnance of stooping to torture, this isn’t even one of those shady “the ends justify the means” arguments: torture is not an effective means of interrogation, and in fact was never intended to be effective by the people who designed these methods.

    So what do we get from torture?

    1) We disgrace ourselves and our nation
    2) Religious martyrs feel vindicated
    3) Terrorists succeed in their goals
    4) Unreliable, useless information


  3. jonolan: “and to punish…”

    That’s why we used to have an amendment that prohibited cruel and unusual punishment. What citizens as individuals want is often contrary what a civilized state should do to them and others.

  4. Of course not a single person said to torture him. 58% of the people said to waterboard him. Real slick to change the terminology and therefore the meaning of the poll.

  5. He obviously wanted to blow himself up. Take him out to the salt flats, put him in a 55 gal. drum with a stick of dynamite, a koran, and a pack of Oscar Meyer weiners. Back off so nobody else gets hurt and light the damn fuse. No press, no publicity, he’s dead, and 70% of us are happy.

  6. I think that some people might consider waterboarding (unlike surfboarding) torture. Its all in the established morals. Feel free to state that its not torture and that John Wayne Gacey and Jeffrey Dalhmer were just misunderstood. If you can’t see that it is torture anyway you go about it then maybe China is your kinda of place. They see nothing wrong with it.

    Hey, how about its the 1970’s and Nixon’s coming. Four dead in Ohio, how many more? This was probably acceptable to you as well?

  7. First, as Twain said, there are lie, damn lies and statistics.

    Secondly, if that is a good number (30/70 – which I doubt – maybe from poll taken from only FOX viewers it’s a good number, but that sample space has issues I guarantee)? Then the 70% that are happy about the idea of torturing this guy?

    You DESERVE to loose your Constitutional Rights. All of them. And you will.


    Because you are all too stupid to realize that by endorsing torture for ANYONE, you might as well be volunteering for it yourself.

    You are also too stupid to realize that once you give up one freedom, like the freedom not to subject to cruel and unusual punishment, that the other freedoms like freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom to associate with whom you please will all be following along into the toilet bowl of fascism presently and with your help. It’s called a slippery slope for a reason.

    Way to go, America!

    Continue to dazzle the world with your force-fed ignorance about your own laws!

    Here . . .


    Now learn to both READ and UNDERSTAND.

    Then maybe you’ll comprehend what Bush did and what Obama is willing to do to make themselves your Pharaoh. Because that’s what the fascists in both parties want: to be your absolute rulers. Well fuck them and anyone stupid enough to back them. And if you back torture for this guy? You ARE just that stupid and indeed promoting the fascist agenda.

    Enjoy your shortsightedness, ethical retardation and hypocrisy. It’s paving the road to this being a slave state.

    I’ll put on the popcorn.

  8. Buddha,

    Fat Green Man. De Bdaman Troll handler. Whats up? You still in Long country or smakin ribs? If smakin rib hit me up with a great recipe. Heck just call.

  9. AY,

    Still in the Twilight Zone. I’ll give you a call soon. Everything has gone sideways here and plans and decisions are being made. Family stuff. As far as ribs go, let me know if you want a beef rib or pork rib recipe. When I get back to the land of BBQ (and my cookbook), I’ll hook you up.

  10. Considering his origins, just put him outside, forget waterboarding. Freeze him with Mr. Freezee. This will help his burn to his wee wee. Oh wait cold can burn too.

    812 AM EST SAT JAN 2 2010


    In fact, most INDEPENDENT long range forecasters see no let up for the entire month of January from the 30 degree latitude for the Northern Hemi.

    Just remember, the more CO2 that is released in the atmosphere the hotter the earth will become.

  11. Just remember, the more CO2 that is released in the atmosphere the hotter the earth will become.

    My bad, I meant to say the more CO2 thats released in the atmosphere the more extreme cold weather events we will have making it colder.

    Oh forget it, just blame CO2 for everything.

  12. Stay on topic, troll.

    No one cares about your babbling about a subject you do not understand.

    But I guess since you’ve been shut down as a birther for making ridiculous arguments and your more blatantly bigoted and racist incarnations get mauled to death, I guess climate change is all you can talk about now, isn’t it?

    At least until the new marching orders come from your fascist masters.

    But the topic here IS torture. And some might consider your drivel as such.

  13. Torturing him with anything is ILLEGAL. Torture has been illegal since 1791.

    Amendment 8 – Cruel and Unusual Punishment

    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

  14. But the topic here IS torture. And some might consider your drivel as such.

    I know you do Mr. Sunspot, it’s like a bamboo shoot shoved under your finger nails, now ain’t it.

    you hate me posting here, you despise me posting here, but unless your willing to back Obama’s FCC czar there’s not a damn thing you can do about it and thats a fact Jack.

  15. What you fail to understand, badtroll, is that to be an effective propagandist one must speak with some kind of authority, even if it is false. The only subject you’ve proven mastery over is your own ignorance.

    You are not an effective propagandist.

    But then again, I suspect you are quite accustomed to personal failure. In every sense of the words.

  16. I don’t hate you posting here.

    I’ve said before we need a resident pet troll to point to as a bad example and cautionary tale.

    You aren’t important enough or dangerous enough to merit hatred.

    Once again, you are legend. But only in YOUR mind.

    You post drivel? It’ll get slapped down. Not just by me either (although your fixation is starting to sound rather Wayne like), but by the several others here who have handed you your head on plate around here. There are many here who have bested you, bdarube. It’s one of the reason you are no longer an effective propagandist.

    Your tower is built on a foundation of sand.

    But you keep coming back. Please do. Without darkness to contrast, we cannot lead others to the light.

  17. Yessum Boss Hog. you right boss, whatever you say boss cause you da boss, boss. I think you should be the president,

    oh but wait, we would have to look at your record, unless that is, you would be willing to tell it, tell it like it is.

  18. My record?

    Stay on topic, troll.

    If you want to compare records in this venue, I’ll be glad to let my record stand against yours any day.

    If you just like feeling small, marginalized and defeated. Which apparently you do. But if you want to play “mine is bigger than yours”? roflmao. Yeah, you have a reputation I’m really worried about as far as your credibility goes.

    The topic is TORTURE. And it’s illegality.

    But you keep trying to steer it to other topics. It’s funny.

  19. Have your handlers started asking for their money back or are they just getting mad because the free help is worth less than what they paid for it? Just curious. Because it must be torture knowing both your intended targets AND your employer think you are a joke.

    You could always go waterboard yourself in the alternative. Ask your buddy Dick. He’ll even help. Then he’ll shoot you in the face with a shotgun and make you apologize.

  20. My record?, yes your record.

    We’ve been down this road before with another well known poster here, I’ll let the record speak for itself.

    no what I mean Vern?

  21. Buddha,

    January 2, 2010 resolve. I will try and not be acerbate to Bdaman as much as it hurts. He is a troll as you know.

  22. AY,

    He seems to forget that “down that road” led to my victory. He’s just desperate and flailing at this point so he resorts to attacking me personally. Well that’s just funny considering he’s a demonstrated bigot, racist and self-confessed troll. Yeah, he’s no longer even good sport, just another bad example.

    Like those who endorse torture are bad examples of human beings.

  23. None of this changes the topic here is the illegal and unconstitutional torture of anyone by the Federal government.

    It’s not the weather.

    It’s not my record.

    It’s not bdawhackjobs delusions of grandeur.

    The topic iss the record of the Bush and Obama administrations actions in ILLEGALLY TORTURING PEOPLE.

    That’s the only valid topic for this thread. As soon as the amateur is done playing propagandist and trying to drive away from that, I’ll probably quit chewing on him. At least in this thread.

  24. “I’ve had patients (too many) tell me that they’re being harassed and followed in their communities. They tell me that the police (and other “public servants” are involved.) And I believe most of them. And I’m sick of it (as well as heartsick about it). The police response is that these folks are “crazy” and you must be “crazy”, as well, for believing it.

    The patients to whom I’m referring are vulnerable and may have provoked the wrong person. Some of them are also activists. If we don’t closely examine the abuses of the last administration and curb the powers of those who clearly don’t have the moral code to be given such authority, we have no one to blame but ourselves for what happens down the road. (And I’m not referring to many of the good people who post here, in addressing “blame.”)

    Colin Powell spoke of a “Terror-Industrial Complex” (and I’m seeing the clear signs of one):

    In Paul Krugman’s book, “The Great Unraveling (Losing Our Way in the New Century”, he wrote:

    “The real challenge now is not to stamp out terrorism; that’s an unattainable goal. The challenge is to find a way to cope with the threat of terrorism without losing the freedom and prosperity that make America the great nation it is.” September 10, 2002

    He (Krugman) quotes Kissinger in his intro: “Those who warn against danger are considered alarmists; those who counsel adaptation to circumstance are considered balanced and sane.” Krugman then concludes, “But so far the alarmists have been right, every time. What can we do?”

    Indeed. What can we do? I do know this: We’d better do something and we’d better do it quickly. We’re in a world of trouble here. And I’ll say it. Yep, I’m sounding one of the many alarms.

    I remember seeing a Sandra Day O’Connor interview about her web site (http://www.ourcourts.org/). At the time, she said that high schools were cutting back and eliminating “Civics” classes. I guess we’re seeing the results…

    Never, in my wildest dreams, would I have imagined what I’m now seeing in America.

  25. anon nurse,

    Excellent post. And you point to a key tactic of the fascists: dumbing down the populace.

    It’s easier to steal from and abuse the rights of those who have no idea what their rights are or that they are being stolen from. Our educational systems are partly to fault for the decline into fascism we are seeing.

  26. “A new Rasmussen poll reveals that 58% of people polled would like to see Flight 253 bombing suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tortured…”


    Just another example of the wisdom of the Founders in forming a republic rather than a democracy. One would hope that our leaders know better. Madison in Federalist 10, lays out the problem and postulates the solution:

    “Among the numerous advantages promised by a well constructed Union, none deserves to be more accurately developed than its tendency to break and control the violence of faction. The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice. He will not fail, therefore, to set a due value on any plan which, without violating the principles to which he is attached, provides a proper cure for it. The instability, injustice, and confusion introduced into the public councils have, in truth, been the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished, as they continue to be the favorite and fruitful topics from which the adversaries to liberty derive their most specious declamations.”

    “By a faction I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.”

    “The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we have them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many ocher points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passion, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each ocher than to co-operate for their common good.”

    “It is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. Nor, in many cases, can such an adjustment be made at all without taking into view indirect and remote considerations, which will rarely prevail over the immediate interest which one party may find in disregarding the rights of another or the good of the whole.”

    “When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of ocher citizens. To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed. Let me add chat it is the great desideratum by which alone this form of government can be rescued from the opprobrium under which it has so long labored and be recommended to the esteem and adoption of mankind.
    By what means is this object attainable? Evidence by one of two only. Either the existence of the same passion or interest in a majority at the same time must be prevented, or the majority, having such coexistent passion or interest, must be rendered, by their number and local situation, unable to concert and carry into effect schemes of oppression. If the impulse and the opportunity be suffered to coincide, we well know that neither moral nor religious motives can be relied on as an adequate control. They are not found to be such on the injustice and violence of individuals, and lose their efficacy in proportion to the number combined together, that is, in proportion as their efficacy becomes needful.
    From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert results from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

    “The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens and greater sphere of country over which the latter may be extended.
    The effect of the first difference is, on the one hand, to refine and enlarge the public views by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country and whose patriotism and love of justice will be lease likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial consideration. Under such a regulation it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the purpose. On the other hand, the effect may be inverted. Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests of the people.”

  27. so he resorts to attacking me personally

    You do it to me, far more than I do it to you, Mr. Sunspot

    As they say, turn about is fair play.

  28. To be clear, “psychological harassment” (torture) has come to America (and American citizens). It’s real and it’s inconsistent with our Constitution and the rule of law.

    This what happens on the slippery slope. We torture terrorists and then we slowly start working on “our own.” Too “liberal”? Out of step with the 58% who believe that torture is a good idea? A little different? Confrontational? Questions authority?

    We’re certainly moving towards a “slave state.” Let’s hope it isn’t too late.

  29. mespo’s post points to another distinction that is often overlooked. Where our systems are breaking is at the junction of democracy and republicanism. It is breaking because those who are supposed to be representing our interests as citizens are now looking out for 1) themselves and 2) their corporate donors – donors which should not be allowed to participate in electoral processes of government (as they are a fiction) any more than animals are allowed to participate. Had the Congress been doing their job? No one would have EVER been tortured nor would have habeas corpus been suspended. Of course, if they were doing their jobs, Cheney and the Board of Exxon would be in prison right now.

  30. Learn to distinguish attacking your credibility versus attacking you as a person. If I said you are a bigot racist troll it’s because you have demonstrated (AND ADMITTED) that is what you are. The defense against slander is truth. You have 1) called another poster a “Christ Killer”, 2) posted racist comments and 3) admitted you are a troll with no agenda but disruption.

    If I said you liked to kill kittens for fun? That’d be a personal attack.

    What I do is attack your credibility as a speaker, which given the circumstances, is perfectly appropriate. So please, try to paint yourself the victim.

    We’ll all laugh our asses off at that, Mr “Christ Killer”.

  31. I think this represents the purposeful attempts to brutalize our population with fear and propaganda. Joe G. pointed out all the relelvant consequences of torture, so why doesn’t this reality mean anything to 58% of our population? Why are so many people full of bloodthirsty cruelty?

    We now have a cowardly, cruel, cringing population who is easy to control. Too many of us will do anything, or put up with anything to “be safe”. This scares me about our nation, it scares me more than the cruelty I see in our “leaders”.

    If we had any real leaders in this nation, every person from the last administration would be facing trial for torture. Instead, many in our Congress, the DOJ, the intelligence services, the armed forces as well as Obama have either engaged in, looked the other way, or actively approved of torture. A real leader would have come out and stood by our Constitution, stood by the rule of law. A real leader would have taken on anyone who tried to tear apart what makes this nation great, even if it meant their own death or lack of a political future. Our ruling elite is full of cowards.

    The people of this nation had better stop following such cowards and starting thinking for ourselves. We are a bullied and manipulated people who calls ourselves free. If we are free we ought to act like we are. Freedom takes courage. You can’t abandon everything that our nation should be and call yourself a free and brave people. We are now so easily controlled, but we have a choice to pull back, stand up and reclaim the nation. That means a rejection of torture and a rejection of any person who reviles our Constitution and would hold us hostage to fear.

  32. Bdaman,

    The games are to begin in the Winterfest Games 2010 Games of Bdaman Bashing.

    If you like toast make sure its out of the toaster before it get too toasted on both sides.

  33. People want to torture these bastards that have no problem killing innocent people in order to have a virgin orgy.

    Only problem is once you set your wee wee on fire, it’s hard to use, or is it hardly any use.

  34. anon nurse We have always had harassment in this country. It is obvious you are not a member of minority group or you would not think this is something new. This is not the McCarthy era politically either.

  35. Anonymously Yours

    It’s not about me, it’s about torture, please stay on topic as Boss Hog has requested you do.

  36. posted racist comments

    Yea like your Black Face Mamie comment



  37. Sounds like you are finally on a topic you might know something about: being an amoral torturing endorsing pig with first hand (and I do mean hand) knowledge of malfunctioning penises.

    See? Now that was a personal attack. All except the part about being an amoral torturing endorsing pig.

    To be clear, bdafascist, that what you endorse is that because the enemy acts like an animal, that’s justification for you not only acting like one, but throwing the Constitution into the trash as well.

    Ever hear that thing about the baby and the bath water? Same thing.

    The reason the Fundies (of all stripes, just wait, the Christian loons are coming to this party too – look at the “Crusaders” at Blackwater/Xe) from Saudi Arabia want to destroy America is our freedoms. Those things guaranteed by the Constitution like Freedom of Religion which is an anathema to a theocratic state like Saudi Arabia and Freedom of Speech which is an anathema to any who would be absolute monarchs. So by all means, destroy the Constitution in your efforts to combat the bad guys. Just go ahead and DO THEIR JOB FOR THEM.

    That’d make you an accomplice in the destruction of America, bdadupe. Since you are advocating torture in contravention of the Constitution and Federal statute, that’s exactly what you are: an accomplice. So those “bastards . . . killing innocent people in order to have a virgin orgy” are using you to do their dirty work.

    You’re being pimped and you aren’t even smart enough to tell.

    And that’s not a personal attack. That’s just an observation based on fact. You are helping the bad guys recruit when you endorse torture. How does it feel to help the enemy? Rhetorical. We all know you love it.

  38. The Obama administration, by releasing Qais and Laith Qazali and more than 100 members of the Iranian-backed Asaib al Haq, may have violated an executive order put in place by President Ronald Reagan to prevent negotiations with hostage takers. Senators Jeff Sessions and Jon Kyl asked this question to the Obama administration in a letter sent to the president in July.



  39. Pattern on the way Obama deals with problems? First, White House aides downplays that something may have gone wrong on their part. While staying out of the spotlight, the president conveys his efforts to address the situation and his feelings about it through administration officials. After a few days, the White House concedes on the issue, and perhaps Obama even steps out to address it.


  40. JT: “A new Rasmussen poll reveals that 58% of people polled would like to see Flight 253 bombing suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tortured for information. It is not just an indictment of our values but another byproduct of President Obama’s blocking of any independent investigation and prosecution of torture under the Bush Administration. By protecting Bush officials, Obama is reinforcing their argument that such measures are merely controversial and not crimes.”

    That’s not entirely true. I believe that more than 58% of Americans are just a bunch of spoiled, coginizantly lazy cowards.

    And I believe I speak for all who grew up before ‘the bicycle helmet generation’ when I say I remember living in a country where an attempted terrorist attack on a plane didn’t grind the nation to a hault as its citizens cried for their president to assure them that everything would be all right.

    Jesus H. Tap Dancing Christ!

  41. To “Swarthmore mom”: I don’t think for a minute that it’s something new. What I am seeing, however, is a marked escalation of something that we need to try to roll back. And it has some new and different twists to it. (Isn’t any “good” harassment protocol/program refined over time?)

    If you could clarify your last statement, I might be able to offer a clear response.

    (And, I think it’s always best to challenge one’s assumptions, in reference to your conclusion about my non-minority status.)

  42. I wouldn’t have accused you of talking in blackface if you didn’t, bdaslow.

    Calling someone out on racist behavior does not make one racist.

    I’ve also used the word nigger here before, but always in context. Words themselves have no meaning without context. Watch:

    Pangalacticgargleblaster. It’s a nonsense word. Unless you have the context of having read Douglas Adams then you realize it’s a cocktail.

    When I use language like that N-word it is to illustrate racism as an evil, not perpetuate it with things like that fine display of Amos ‘n Andy speak you were giving the other day. Had you done that IRL to ANY black man I know, you’d have stern talking to at a minimum and gotten a beating at maximum, sport.

    And rightfully so.

    Again, it’s your own actions that do you in around here. I’ve made it abundantly clear (on multiple occasions) that I think race (or religion or sexual orientation) is one of the least interesting things about a person.

    You cannot say as much. And you cannot because your past actions belie your words declaring your innocence.

    You also cannot distract from the fact that by endorsing torture, you are helping the enemy achieve their goals just as much as if you were holding a gun or sending them cash.

    The subject here is TORTURE, troll.

    Not you being characterized as evil. Because that is a characterization you built all on your own. If you find being categorized with the bad guys to be torturous? I submit that you quit working for them and to their interests and benefit as the solution.

  43. Bill Ayers is a member of society who has paid the price for his actions.

    McVeigh, however, was a terrorist. He was a Christian Fundie terrorist.

    I’m not sure you’re a Fundie, but you sure do help the terrorists as laid out above, bdasucker.

    Come on, tell us again how torturing is a good thing for the US.

    Or you can try to run away again by smearing someone not here to chew you up and spit you out.

  44. Bdaman

    The only thing I can give you any credit for is consistancy. You post an endless stream of ill-considered drivel without ever making a shred of sense. You must have a very high sense of self image, though, or you’d realize how weak your presentaion is and how much you’re embarassing yourself.

  45. I am a self proclaimed sufferer of bigotry. I don’t like bigots. So by definition I am guilty of Bigotry.

    bigotry – the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot

  46. Jodie Evans and her terrorist sympathizing group Code Pink have provoked a violent crisis in Egypt over an attempt to deliver ‘humanitarian aid’ to Hamas-run Gaza to mark the one-year anniversary of Israel’s response to repeated provocations by Hamas terrorists. Evans was joined in Cairo by Obama friend Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dorhn, both former terrorists with the Weather Underground.

    Members of the Gaza Freedom March are being forcibly detained in hotels around town (Lotus, Liala) as well as violently forced into pens in Tahir Square by Egyptian police and additional security forces. Reports of police brutality are flooding a delegate legal hotline faster than the legal support team can answer the calls. The reports span from women being kicked, beaten to the ground and dragged into pens, at least one confirmed account of broken ribs, and many left bloody.

    The press release went on to describe the activists’ purpose for being in Egypt.

    The marchers had planned to enter Gaza through Egypt’s Rafah Crossing on Dec. 27, then to join with an estimated 50,000 Palestinian residents to march to Erez Crossing into Israel to peacefully demand an end to the siege. However, the government of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak announced just days before the hundreds of delegates began arriving in Cairo that the march would not be allowed to go forward. It cited ongoing tensions at the border. When marchers demonstrated against the decision, the government cracked down, often using heavily armed riot police to encircle and intimidate the nonviolent marchers.

  47. Bdaman,

    I would gladly suffer in a debate with Bill Ayers than engage in any appearance of rationality with you.

    Read what you have posted. Does any of this make sense. I am not a Obama fan, never have never will be. Bill Ayers smart enough to take a stand about something that was paralyzing this country. He did something. Attention is what he wanted and Attention is what he got.

    Bush put us in war with the rest of the world to protect Oil Dollars and the American Banker. Now that Haliburton has moved to Saudi Araba what do we need to do about it? Oh yeah, they have a long term contract with the US DOD and CIA to provide support services. Do you have any ideal of who was CEO, President, and a Resident of Montana?

  48. I think he’s the brightest most wonderful person who has come across the starting line and I was introduced to him by a friend who was raising money for him. The friends name is Dr. Khalid al-Mansour, from Texas. He is the principal adviser to one of the worlds richest men. He told me about Obama.

    He wrote to me about him. And his introduction was “there is a young man that has applied to Harvard. I know that you have a few friends up there because you used to go up there to speak. Would you please write a letter in support of him?”

    Dr. Khalid al-Mansour is the principal adviser to one of the worlds richest men.

    I let you figure out who and where he resides.

    Everybody is a friend to Saudi Arabia, Obama got a .9999 percent pure gold necklace to prove it.

    Bow wow wow yippe yo yippe yea, nuttin but the Dog in meh

  49. If we have good reason to believe the underwear bomber has information that would save numerous lives, waterboard him.

    The U.S. Constitution provides protection for U.S. Citizens and visitors. It does not apply to hostile foreign occupants.

    “When I mention these rights of an alien, I must be understood of alien friends only, or such whose countries are in peace with ours; for alien-enemies have no rights, no privileges, unless by the king’s special favor, during the time of war.”

    (1765) Book I page 356

    Our “King” is the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Constitution grants no rights to “alien-enemies”.

  50. That’s all well and good until you realize that YOU TOO, AMERICAN CITIZEN can be declared an enemy combatant.

    Just because some douchebag at DHS wants to sleep with your wife. Never mind that you aren’t a terrorist. Someone in government has decided you are inconvenient to their plans so they’ll ship you off to be tortured. And don’t worry about the truth getting out at trial. You won’t get one. Or you’ll get a show trial.

    Don’t think that’s possible? Jose Padilla is an American citizen who was tortured. He was only charged after being held for 3 1/2 years – the detention itself a multiple Constitutional violation. Whether he did anything or not is now irrelevant as he’d walk . . . if Obama wasn’t still violating citizen’s rights in the name of protecting Cheney and his pack of fascist scum. You remember him. The guy who is business partners with the country that DID attack us, Saudi Arabia. The guy whose company stole a palette full of cash and then fled to Dubai to avoid prosecution. With Dick’s blessing and help in fleeing justice.

    It also shows your incredible ignorance of the Constitution. Parts of it do apply to EVERYONE. Only some of it is reserved for citizens. The right to be free from torture is one of those parts that apply to everyone, your ignorance notwithstanding. And it’s that type of ignorance that allows EVERYONE’S rights to be abused.

    And I’m sure glad you bought up that informant issue.

    Because it was one GIANT FAILURE at DHS and CIA and FBI that this butt head could get anywhere NEAR a plane without an agent on him – being groomed or not. He was being groomed BECAUSE HE ASSOCIATED WITH ACTUAL TERRORISTS. Duh. So the fact that he was being groomed is irrelevant other than it highlights how pathetic Napaletano was when she clownishly said “the system worked!” Pollyanna CYA bullshit it “worked”. What happened was a bomb DIDN’T WORK. We got LUCKY. Period. But the “system” didn’t have shit to do with it . . . other than “the system” let a known associate of terrorists on a plane – WITH A BOMB – when CHILDREN unlucky enough to have a name like actual terrorists are hassled by the no-fly list and grandmothers with walkers are subject to strip searches. What it showed is more incompetent morons in government, but it didn’t show the “system worked”.

    Any one else care to defend the failure that is the American Federal Government? Any more sage advice from the fascism crowd? Any more CYA horse crap from Napelatano’s office?

    Because no one paying attention is buying that for a minute.

  51. swarthmore mom,

    I feel your posts are often condescending towards people who have a different opinion than you do. When you wrote: “anon nurse We have always had harassment in this country. It is obvious you are not a member of minority group or you would not think this is something new. This is not the McCarthy era politically either.” I thought it was unnecessary to put in the part about being a member of minority group.

    While I agree with you that we have always had harassment in this country, I’m not certain why that would make harassment t occurring either in the past or the present, acceptable. As to minority groups, one big one under direct attack by our govt. is the Muslim population, of which you are not a member. It therefore might be easier for you to ignore what happens to the Muslim population, if we are to follow your argument’s logic in your post to anon nurse. I submit to you that you may truly be unaware of the level of govt. intrusion on all our lives, especially those who are minorities picked up by ICE and Muslims who loose their civil liberties in ways that those of us who are native born, non-Muslims seldom encounter. I might further add that if you joined a counter-recruitment group, and were really active in it, you might find this govt. to be quite intrusive, even as a native born, non-Muslim person. Those of us who have lived different experiences with this govt. are not in la-la land, we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of the govt. It is why we cannot excuse the loss of our civil liberties and refuse to stay silent.

  52. Well said, Buddha.

    And though they’ve been repeated too often, perhaps, two of my favorite quotes are as follows:

    “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell

    “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

    -An excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania sometimes misattributed to Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson. (source Wikipedia)

  53. Jill wrote: “…we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of the govt. It is why we cannot excuse the loss of our civil liberties and refuse to stay silent.”

    I agree and feel that it bears repeating…

  54. “we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of the govt.” – Jill

    Actually if this poll is correct, we are seeing the really ugly, bare face of ourselves.

  55. Huka
    1, January 2, 2010 at 1:40 pm
    “If we have good reason to believe the underwear bomber has information that would save numerous lives, waterboard him.

    The U.S. Constitution provides protection for U.S. Citizens and visitors. It does not apply to hostile foreign occupants.”

    The basic laws of humanity do that. Its called being a human being.

    And there are international laws against torture, if you actually need a law to tell you that it is wrong to torture people.

    Professor Turely noted that those responding to the polls were on their way to the Church’s and Synagogues. No one picked up on that, but I did. You see there are absolutes in this world. Moral absolutes that do not require laws to understand. And in noting the poll respondents championing of torturing a human being while simultaneously heading off to religious worship, he was drawing a stark and poignant contrast to the polarity of those principles, i.e. presuming to worship in churches which teach humanity while concurrently abandoning their own humanity.

    There are absolutes in this world. Things that for normal, sane people just have no question. If you entered an insane asylum and saw a patient sitting in a corner smearing feces on themselves, you’d not try to reason with them. You’d just sort of shake your head and walk away. Because you are aware that any individual needing to be told that smearing fecal matter on themselves is wrong, clearly isn’t capable of comprehending anything you have to say. If he needs to be told, then he cannot be told.

    And it is the same with those who can glibly call for the torture of another human being while simultaneously heading off to somewhere to display their piety. If you have to tell a grown adult that torturing another human is wrong, then you cannot tell that grown adult that torturing another human is wrong. You can never tell him as he cannot comprehend the message. He is lacking the tools to do so.

    All you can do is shake your head in shame, and walk away.

  56. Glenn Greenwald writes: “political leaders possess an inherent interest in maximizing fear levels, as that is what maximizes their power. For a variety of reasons, nobody aids this process more than our establishment media, motivated by their own interests in ratcheting up fear and Terrorism melodrama as high as possible. The result is a citizenry far more terrorized by our own institutions than foreign Terrorists could ever dream of achieving on their own. For that reason, a risk that is completely dwarfed by numerous others — the risk of death from Islamic Terrorism — dominates our discourse, paralyzes us with fear, leads us to destroy our economic security and eradicate countless lives in more and more foreign wars, and causes us to beg and plead and demand that our political leaders invade more of our privacy, seize more of our freedom, and radically alter the system of government we were supposed to have. The one thing we don’t do is ask whether we ourselves are doing anything to fuel this problem and whether we should stop doing it. As Adams said: fear “renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable.”

  57. Jill,

    There is no reason to attack anyone Personally on this site. I find you most offensive and yet I do not say anything. I know Swartzmoremom and she has had more life experiences that you will never know and or experience based upon what you have stated.

    You have a tendency to classify and label people based upon what they write. If I have that same right and I do, I think you are a fundamental sexist without the requisite knowledge to understand what a sexist is. I further think that you are a bigot and I base this upon you clandestine writings on this site.

    Rather than say I disagree and go about your business you make it a point to personally attack and then defend your position much like a 2 year old. You rationalize what you want and then damned be anyone else with a contrary opinion to what you state.

    I have seen you attack Mike Spindell this last week and did not say anything. You then lunged after Buddha and then back peddled and mousetrapped apologized without any real meaning. I have said this before to Patty C and I will reiterate this point to you. Attack me all you want I have had the worst things happen to me and I have survived, some of my own making and some at the hands of others.

    Lets start this new year out correct and bring peace and harmony rather than discord and anarchy. Someone brought up Bill Ayers today, do you think age has mellowed him or he has a new approach for the same issues?

    I personally know a priest that baptized my daughter at my home, while his roommate was serving time for Protesting Dow Chemical and the Military Based in East Michigan. Pick your battles and know which ones are really worth fighting.

    Do something to convince me and I presume the others that you are not really a Bigot and a Sexists in the same breath.

  58. Jill and Patty both attacked the GWU mom and she is gone. I read a blog to get different opinions. I know what Jill and bdaman are going to say. They both hate Obama and will not give him credit if he does do something right and they blame him for things that happen over which he has no control. I do not think they can get together and defeat him though. The muslims I know were very strong Obama supporters and as of yet are not displeased with him.

  59. From mespo’s post:

    “The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we have them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society.
    It is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm.” (Federalist 10)

    From Buddha:

    ” Where our systems are breaking is at the junction of democracy and republicanism. It is breaking because those who are supposed to be representing our interests as citizens are now looking out for 1) themselves and 2) their corporate donors – donors which should not be allowed to participate in electoral processes of government (as they are a fiction) any more than animals are allowed to participate. Had the Congress been doing their job? No one would have EVER been tortured nor would have habeas corpus been suspended. Of course, if they were doing their jobs, Cheney and the Board of Exxon would be in prison right now.”

    I reposted these writings because I believe, together, they educate responsibly.

    Shortly after the Underwear(a slick way of dehumanizing him) bomber was caught, I happened to see Pat Buchanan on TV loudly recommending that the government withhold the guys burn/pain medication in order to get information from him. I waited for someone on the program to protest Buchanan’s remarks and no one did, so I called MSNBC and protested … then I wrote an email. Then I wrote a note to my Senator and one to the White House. I did what I could to protest the suggestion that torture was “okay” because the individual was an “enemy”.

    I wrote to my Senator and the White House because I believe the Professor is correct … “By protecting Bush officials, Obama is reinforcing their argument that such measures are merely controversial and not crimes.” … and, in my own words, said so.

    Which is why mespo’s quote from the Federalist … “Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm.” and Buddha’s response, “Had the Congress been doing their job? No one would have EVER been tortured nor would have habeas corpus been suspended.” … responsibly educate us and point to the core of the problem which is “a lack of enlightened statesmen” at the helm of our government. It is our responsibility to correct that.

  60. I think Jill is passionate about certain subjects and that her passion is, sometimes, mis-interrupted. It doesn’t do to skim Jill’s posts … they are worth careful reading.

    Bdaman? No drunk driving, no drunk dialing, and certainly no drunk
    diatribing. (I don’t think diatribe can be used as a verb but it fits the alliteration.)

  61. Blouise,

    No one has claimed that Jill’s posts are not worth reading. Only asking her not to attack another that holds a view different than hers. She was blasted by a few folks this last week for calling them sexist bigots. She backed down, but never really recanted. she was wrong then as much as she is wrong now for blasting another on this site this very day.

    Most of the folks on here are like I, Anonymous. There are a few folks on here that I know personally and are extremely well educated and are well off in one way or another. Whether it be financial or life experiences. T tell someone she does not know how the Muslims feel is out of bounds. How does she know that I am not of Arabic descent or that someone else is not the same or married to a Muslim? To make bald faced dissertations about someone is wrong. In as much as she calls people sexist and bigots, she herself is guilty of the same. Stereotyping and Profiling.

    When Jill was getting beat up by someone last year I came to her defense. I will again, if she is personally attacked for her beliefs. That is where I take a stand. She can be as unreasonable as she wants and make statements I disagree with. She is entitled and can even do so with as much bigotry as she wishes. I do not care. But when the personal attacks start, I will disagree and say so.

    Thank you for your defense of Jill. You did so well.

  62. Blouise:

    You presciently quote the passage I think is at the crux of the issue. Madison postulates his own solution in Federalist 10 which I leave to the readers to review. As you know, I am both a Jefferson and Madison admirer, and I am fully prepared to follow their guidance.

    Jefferson fully understood the problem as well:

    “I sincerely wish we could see our government so secured as to depend less on the character of the person in whose hands it is trusted. Bad men will sometimes get in and with such an immense patronage may make great progress in corrupting the public mind and principles. This is a subject with which wisdom and patriotism should be occupied.”

    –Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801.

  63. Mespo,
    The subject of this post, “Poll: 58 Percent of Americans Want Underwear Bomber To Be Tortured” indicates that Jefferson’s thoughts, “Bad men will sometimes get in and with such an immense patronage may make great progress in corrupting the public mind and principles.”, are, once again, a present day reality.

    Often, over the last 40 years, I have despaired at the process by which we choose our national leaders. The candidates present themselves as “American Idols” and rather than looking at each individual through a magnifying glass, the public dons rose-colored glasses and talks about having a beer with him/her.

    My only consolation is to read history and realize that it is not just a present day phenomena but rather an attitude that has plagued us since our founding.

    I am a past president of the League of Women Voters and spent years educating voters and as such I know we are not a “dumb” people. In fact, I don’t think it is stupidity at all. I think that the majority of voters are too trusting and even too idealistic. They believe what a candidate says because they, themselves, are trust-worthy people who wouldn’t lie and can’t imagine someone purposely lying to them. Yes, I’ve heard over and over the phrase, “Oh they’re all crooks!” But the ones who say that believe all the politicians out there who they didn’t vote for are the crooks. The ones they voted for couldn’t be because … well … they voted for ’em.

    The schools and parents have to start doing a better job in teaching our children what the Founding Fathers had to say and why. The continued success of the Republic depends on it.

    Okay … I’ll get off my soapbox.

  64. There is no reason to attack anyone Personally on this site.

    Except for Bdaman

    Good one there Jimmy. The lesson there is, even though he was telling the truth, he was chastised, humiliated,scorned called all kinds of names only to be fired and never heard from again.
    I’m here for the long haul. Time is on my side, we got three more years of Obumbo and it’s getting colder by the day.

    To steal a line from another commenter here.

    Attack me all you want I have had the worst things happen to me and I have survived, some of my own making and some at the hands of others.

    Gandhi says, even if you are in a minority of one, the truth is still the truth.

    Global Warming is a hoax and terrorist be them from Ireland to Chechnya, Yemen to Saudi Arabia deserve the electric chair, oh wait, thats cruel and unusual punishment.

  65. Stealing and misrepresentation are your speciality. We expect as much from the King of Copy Pasters. We don’t expect you to have an original thought since all the ones you’ve expressed up to this date have been spoon fed to you by propagandists and special interests – interests that do not have your or anyone but their own selfish venal self interests at heart even if they are paying you, bdafool.

    1) The only hoax here is you. See, the word you were looking for is FRAUD, bdabadwriter. A hoax is perpetuated for the sake of the hoax and does not have a profit motive. A fraud, on the other hand, is a trick played for money – like invading Iraq. Contrast with a confidence game, which is a long term fraud – like invading Iraq. Word choice is not your strong suit. Technically speaking, you are likely a hoax being driven by a fraud. If you are being paid, which many here suspect, then that’d make you a fraud instead of a hoax. A hoax is by some measure better than being a fraud or a con man. English. You should get some. In more ways than one. (That’s a pool joke just in case it went over your head.)

    2) Capital punishment is not ipso facto cruel and unusual. Waterboarding IS torture and against the law. Holding prisoners indefinitely without charge or trial IS against the law.

    The way we conduct capital punishment is economically nonsensical. But you are an expert in nonsensical. I have no issue with killing an actual convicted terrorist. None at all . . . as long as a fair and impartial trier of fact hears the case and you agree to try and execute the treasonous traitors within our own government first.

    Killing bad guys isn’t the issue.

    It’s actually your bosses prime driver that is the issue: money.

    The economics of the situation dictate that it’s cheaper to simply warehouse prisoners – a bit of something I learned here from other posters. Imagine that, bdamissedopportunites. You might learn something here. Nah! Who am I kidding. Learning – as opposed to programming – does not seem to be your strong suit or you’d know there is a difference between torture and capital punishment. The “good” news is that the programming seems to have taken in your case. However, until there is a streamlined appeals process in place for death row inmates, I am going to be against capital punishment for anyone let alone terrorists. To be otherwise is to urge fiscal irresponsibility on government. Isn’t that something the Neocons schill for? Small government so they can steal the money for themselves? You bet it is. And warehousing should be their preferred outcome as Cheney owns a huge state in the private prison company formerly known as Wackenhut. See what happens when you follow the money?

    3) Again, you don’t like being considered an evil fascist troll worthy of only scorn and derision? Then change your ways or quit whining like a baby about being under perpetual attack by every other poster here (excluding the times you’ve assumed fake ID’s to agree with yourself – the propaganda tactic of false consensus, a tactic which has failed you miserably in the past). Since you’ve sided with the enemy in every respect both internal and external?

    Own your villainy.

    You think you b da man? Then act like a man and own your errors.

    Speaking of evil, I liked the way you clumsily slipped Yemen into the war rhetoric . . . just like your master’s instructed. Next, you’ll be mentioning Somalia or whatever other target your Neocon masters want to attack for their balance sheets next. It’s no accident the countries you mention all have oil. I will stipulate including Saudi Arabia, a country any American paying attention wants reduced to rubble and their rulers awaiting trial for attacking American citizens on 9/11, along with Chechnya – a country we have no quarrel with and we’d only invade if we were looking to start a nuclear war with the former Soviet states – was fairly subtle . . . by your propaganda standards anyway. Not by mine, of course, but then again I’m what is known as “an expert”. But enough about me, let’s talk more about your owning your own actions, including villainy.

    You complain and complain that you are perceived as one of the bad guys yet you do not see the truth of the group dynamic. If one person sees you as bad, that can be personal animosity (which as I’ve explained before, you aren’t worth the effort to actively hate). If just about everyone in a group sees you as a bad guy (as is the case with the group here)?

    Then you are the bad guy.

    Yeah, yeah, I know your internal dialog paints you as the hero of this story, but so did Hitler’s. And Pol Pot’s. And Stalin’s. Everyone except sociopaths or other mentally ill people think they are the heroes of their own tales. That’s human nature. It takes a tougher or more sociopathic man than you to be openly evil and embrace it. But you have a role model in your hero Dick “The Shotgun” Cheney.

    So own your villainy. Actually “be the man”. Take the red pill or take the blue pill. Either way, make a choice. Because you are only sitting on the fence in your own mind. Regular readers already know where you stand.

    This hole you are in regarding how you are perceived and treated based on the perceptions of yourself you create with your words? It is of your own making. No one called you a racist or a bigot or a Neocon until you started acting like one. You dug this hole. Just like the way out would be of your own making. But some people like living in the pit. I’m pretty sure you’re in that last category at this point. You’ve been pointed in the right direction enough times that your static behavior is likely by choice. Your choice. Or you are being paid. Paid troll or merely a dupe, either way, you’re still the designated bad guy. A designation you put upon yourself – with some gusto. The only way to change that is to correct the errors within yourself. Self-rehabilitation. Not a likely outcome. You like to wallow in your own ego. Changing one’s self first requires the self-knowledge that one is not perfect followed by the WORK required to make one’s self a better human. Something you are demonstrably unwilling to do.

    Now I know you are going to try to turn this back on me by accusing me of thinking I’m perfect – also a form of ego worship and ergo evil. Simply not true. I am not perfect. I’m wrong from time to time like any other human. What I am though is smarter and wiser than you, both of which were acquired at considerable cost – including a substantial cost to my previous perceptions of self. I didn’t get to be the nice(r) person I am to today without first being a total bastard. At one point, I had a choice. I chose enlightenment. That does not make me perfect. My choice was to do as little harm in the world as possible and work to make TODAY better – not some snake oil afterlife as promised by most religions. What difference does an afterlife make when all energy is conserved. We are all just energy slowed down to resemble what we call matter. It’s all the same thing. We are one with the universe whether we like or hate it or are ignorant of that fact. What we do to harm ourselves harms others as well. This includes being a venal narcissistic pig like your political heroes. It’s going to not just be the death of them eventually, but it could kill everyone. Every last human on Earth could die in the games our leaders are playing at the moment. All so they can feel the illusion that their power is real and that money is better than truth. Real power isn’t the ability to destroy or even possession of chattel. Any clown can destroy. Killing is easy. I can kill a man with two fingers. Creating? That’s a much harder task. It’s also the way civilization advances and the only thing that will move us from the cradle of Earth and into the stars. Some eggs must be broken to create, but your boys seem to want the whole chicken coop busted up.

    This is why I fight Neocons with words instead of fists (for now). That makes me on a path toward something better than the illusion of perfection – as much truth and wisdom as can be accumulated in one lifetime no matter how personally unpleasant. That’s not perfection. Perfection is impossible – the Incompleteness Theorems. I’m not a bodhisattva, merely a monk on the path. That’s merely doing my duty as a sentient being to help the universe understand itself. Teneo vestri. Know yourself. This is required before you can know the greater universe around you with any kind of clarity. This costly wisdom includes the lessons required to disarm you before you can counter and indeed generally rip through the lies you cloak yourself in. You have just seen a lesson in action. Did you learn anything? If so, was it the right thing? Given your track record, eh, I kinda doubt it. But there is always hope.

    4) Gandhi was wrong. Well, not wrong so much as incomplete. There is another true definition of one person holding forth an assertion that only the speaker thinks is true: insanity. Also an explanation of your ethically degenerate and sock puppet arguments as many of the mentally ill are easily suggestible and more susceptible to propaganda programming. That you perpetually act against your best interests as a citizen, absent a money motive, does not rule out you simply being mad as an explanation for your behavior either. If it’s any consolation? I don’t think you are crazy. Just ineffective, stupid and evil. Small “e”. A puppet of those smarter than you. It’s an important distinction.

  66. Jill,

    I maybe wrong but I think you owe Swartzmoremom an apology. I see you have commented on other threads today and have yet to address a potential word fight on this one, that you started. Please for the respect of the professor, this Blawg and The civility of this site, do so.

    If I am wrong, please state that I have no right to bring up the matter as you can be as offensive as you wish?

  67. Blouise:

    ” I think that the majority of voters are too trusting and even too idealistic. They believe what a candidate says because they, themselves, are trust-worthy people who wouldn’t lie and can’t imagine someone purposely lying to them.”

    I think that is a very true statement, except for people who vote strictly because of party affiliation.

  68. Bdaman:

    If you are for torture I think you are wrong, it really doesn’t do much good. If I had someone pulling my nails out, I would tell them whatever they wanted to know. And if they played Joan Baez, Bob Dylan or Peter Paul and Mary I would tell them the truth just so they would turn it off.

  69. BLouise:

    Stay on up there on that soapbox. Teaching critical thinking skills are where our education system is woefully inadequate. Too trusting means not enough thinking. Your efforts are laudable, but the true solution lies in electing people without the visage and flighty-headedess necessary for mass media. We need serious people in office because the job is serious. I am tired of this homage to the clown because he makes us laugh. I’ll take a boring old competent guy anytime.

  70. “Teaching critical thinking skills are where our education system is woefully inadequate.”


    I started to say something else and missed changing the verb. Make that “is where.”

  71. Mespo:

    “I am tired of this homage to the clown because he makes us laugh. I’ll take a boring old competent guy anytime.”

    But who would vote for him/her? And where are all the boring competent guys/gals? Most likely doing serious work in industry, the military or academia and having no interest in politics.

    So how do you attract serious people to the political process?

  72. Byron & Blouise–

    ”I think that the majority of voters are too trusting and even too idealistic. They believe what a candidate says because they, themselves, are trust-worthy people who wouldn’t lie and can’t imagine someone purposely lying to them.”

    I think that is a very true statement, except for people who vote strictly because of party affiliation.


    Sometimes we vote for the lesser of two evils.

    I fault the media for the way they cover and present political candidates. Some members of the media seem to have a preconceived idea of what a presidential candidate should look like/be like. I think the press and many Americans prefer style over substance. I couldn’t watch some of the presidential debates because I was dumbfounded by some of the idiotic questions that the candidates were asked. For example, Clinton was once asked why people seem to like Obama better than her. In addition, certain candidates were excluded from some of the presidential debates.

    There are too many talking heads on TV spouting the party line and not having substantial in-depth discussions about important matters. There’s too little investigative journalism and too much “opinioning.”

  73. Byron:

    “So how do you attract serious people to the political process?”

    First we start by teaching that democracy is not a spectator sport and everyone has the obligation to serve if they have the ability to do so. Second we teach that, contray to Gordon Gecko, greed is not good. Altruism is good,as is public spiritedness. This is especially true among the social elite.

    Here are the words from Ted Kennedy’s unrivaled eulogy for his brother Bobby adressing that point:

    ” Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. And I believe that in this generation those with the courage to enter the moral conflict will find themselves with companions in every corner of the globe.

    For the fortunate among us, there is the temptation to follow the easy and familiar paths of personal ambition and financial success so grandly spread before those who enjoy the privilege of education. But that is not the road history has marked out for us. Like it or not, we live in times of danger and uncertainty. But they are also more open to the creative energy of men than any other time in history. All of us will ultimately be judged, and as the years pass we will surely judge ourselves on the effort we have contributed to building a new world society and the extent to which our ideals and goals have shaped that event.”

    I think once you downplay the role of looks and personality, the competent will come forward. We are too much the land of hype caused by our consumer society. Substance is what counts in a crisis, and that may be just where we are headed. It took the Depression of the 30’s to drag us back from the foolishness of the 20’s. If a similar collision with reality is what it takes to put us back on track, let it come.

  74. Mespo:

    I’ll take rational self interest over greed and altruism.

    But good point about looks and personality needing to be down played. I might even have a chance in that event.

  75. Your mistake Byron is assuming that self interest is rational for all. Simply because you are rational does not mean everyone is rational. Ergo, you are relying upon an unreliable.

    However, promoting altruism and punishing greed can both be systemically managed. They don’t depend on an individuals flawed judgement or broken reasoning. That’s why we are supposed to be a country of laws, not men – to remove the caprice of insane monarchs. When the individual in charge is insane? You get guys like Nero, Caligula, King George II and Hitler. Monsters surrounded by other monsters.

    This was the vision of our Founding Fathers – a self correcting mechanism of state that is concerned with liberty and justice for all. Not just those who make the most campaign contributions. A system that worked for the common good, not the corporate good. This is now the Fascist States of America. Jefferson, Madison & friends would be dragging lobbyists and Congressmen out into the streets by the scruff of the neck if they came back to see what had been done to their creation.

    If you want to see someone competent penalized for their looks by the media look no further than the only one on the Hill I’d act to protect when revolution comes: Kucinich. He gets it. He got before the “war” too. He is an actual public servant. Most of the rest of them aren’t worth the gas it’d take to set them on fire. Which is ironic considering who they sold out to.

  76. Dennis Kucinich on The Bailout


    Dennis Kucinich tells the awful truth about the bailout
    by Ben Cohen (Daily Banter)

    “Congressman Dennis Kucinich, never a man to bend on principle, has not accepted the bill, and delivered a scathing assessment in the U.S House of Representatives. Painted as a buffoon by the media and rest of the political establishment, Kucinich is one of the only politicians left speaking truth to power.”


  77. “Jefferson, Madison & friends would be dragging lobbyists and Congressmen out into the streets by the scruff of the neck if they came back to see what had been done to their creation.”

    we should do it now, why wait?

  78. Elaine:

    Personally I nominate Henry Waxman. Tom Delay is gone or he would have been number one. After that take them alphabetically and vote them out. Hopefully 2010 will be a big year for the “I” column.

    Who do you like for “first” off the ship?

  79. Byron–

    Who do I like for first off the ship? Boy! That’s a hard one. There are so many to choose from. And every day, there’s another political figure I’d like to send to the hall of shame. It’s hard keeping track of them all. Dick Armey would have been in my top ten–along with DeLay. I’ll have to think about this one. Joe Lieberman is definitely in contention.

  80. AY I do not want an apology from Jill. I had become uppity in her mind and deserved a smackdown. Also Henry Waxman is an influential liberal who is very safe in his Beverly Hills district.I really do not know if it is a year for the I’s. I think they would need to get their campaigns together sometime soon. It is 2010.

  81. Byron–

    Michele Bachmann also makes my Top Ten List. I think the woman is NUTS!!!

    Remember when she said she wanted residents of her state “armed and dangerous?”

    From Huffington Press, March 23, 2009
    Michele Bachmann: I Want People “Armed And Dangerous” Over Obama Tax Plan

    Controversial Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) said this weekend that she wants residents of her state “armed and dangerous” over President Barack Obama’s plan to reduce global warming “because we need to fight back.”



    Here’s a poem I wrote about Bachmann back in March.

    Michele Bachmann: Armed and Dangerous

    She’s wild-eyed and packin’ heat—
    One congressgal who’s not so sweet.
    She isn’t your typical Minnesotan.
    She’s militant…warlike—and totin’
    A derringer in her Gucci bag…
    A Smith and Wesson—40 mag,
    A semi-automatic Colt.
    She thinks it’s time for an armed revolt.
    She’s out inciting insurrection!
    (How DID this crank win re-election?????)

    She says she’s ready for a revolution!
    I say she’s ready for an institution—
    An asylum for the politically inane
    With padded cells. This gal’s insane.
    She’s crazy. She’s possessed. She’s mad!
    As a final thought I’d like to add:
    She needs a good psychiatrist—
    Or, better still, an exorcist!

  82. First to go?

    Sen. Mitch “I’m A Fascist Obstructionist Tool” McConnell (R) if we can staple him to Rep. Nancy “No Spine” Pelosi (D).

    But really, as long as we keep Kucinich? The rest of them can all go in the bin as earned by their performances over the last two years. Not a plug nickel’s worth of difference in the rest of the graft swilling pigs.

  83. Ms. EM’

    Very good, biting, and accurate M. Bachmann poem…although I am a strong proponent of the 2nd Amendment.

  84. Swarthmore mom,

    AY I do not want an apology from Jill. I had become uppity in her mind and deserved a smackdown. Also Henry Waxman is an influential liberal who is very safe in his Beverly Hills district.I really do not know if it is a year for the I’s. I think they would need to get their campaigns together sometime soon. It is 2010.


    I do not care what she says so long as she does not make it personal. If you will recall, we once had a contributing member on here that blew this Blawg to smithereens. I wished that it did not get out of hand this time and felt the need to defend you honor.

    Call it being a sexists or what have you, I call it being a friend. I am a lot of things and I am guilty of a lot of thoughts but what I do with those thoughts is what I am responsible for.

    I do not like Bigots or Sexists. Which I think she is and try’s and cover in her writings. But then again, people see what they want to in another’s writings.

    I do not care to read Steinbeck, Faulkner or Hemmingway. However the messages that they convey could never be the same for everyone as they write in abstracts to me. There is just one more thing to ponder each time I read something that they have written.

    However there are much more educated people than I. I can still learn to learn.

  85. Swartsmore mom,

    I was pondering the issue and I am offended that Jill has not offered you an apology. I see that she has been trying to ingratiate herself with others on this list today. For one that wants accountability for others they have no problem ignoring their own short comings. The word Hypocrite comes to mind.

  86. Hume is not only wrong, he’s a proven clown at this point.

    Buddhism is indeed not only compatible with recovery, it’s more likely to develop sustained recovery as there will be no reliance on a “higher power” other than Tiger’s own determination and acceptance of his flaws so that he may outgrow them. Self determination is always a better cure than fear or abdicating self-control to a “higher power” although that works just fine for some. I’m big on owning your mistakes and taking control of your life. Accepting what you cannot control does not require a higher power for all – just self awareness and control over the ONLY thing ANYONE has actual control over – themselves. Tiger must appeal to the buddha nature within to find peace. No divine intervention required and the end result is the same – except if he fails, he cannot blame God for abandoning him. It’ll be his own fault. Just like the situation he’s in now for not being able to keep his tiger cub in his pants. But Brit is moron if he thinks Jesus is requisite for sobriety. Pure theocratic horseshit that. Yeah, Brit! Jesus may be the only path to heaven in some people’s sick and distorted readings of the Bible, but I guarantee he’s not required to clean up. The desire to clean up is what is required to clean up. The paths to that end are many.

    Brit Hume. You were once a journalist, sock puppet. How much of Rupert’s money did it take for you to become a propaganda whore?

  87. AY,

    I’ve been thinking about your issue in re Jill vs. Smom.

    1) Yes. I know that when cornered Jill is either incapable or unwilling to make a proper apology. Her motions to me were facile at best, but I let it go as everyone here but her (and Mike S. pointed this out) knows I treat both sexes equally. That means both the good AND the bad. That means humor. That means criticism. That means warfare if merited. That means love and compassion if merited. My defense was complete. Her actual apology would have been gravy, but I’ll take what I got. It’s that turning the other cheek thing Jesus was so big on.

    3) I was not offended by her actions in half-heartedness. I accept some people cannot apologize well or at all. That is their failing as a human and no one else’s.

    4) While I too have defended Jill from personal attacks from that person who is no longer here, Jill’s personal attacks on me without an express apology do have a consequence. If she gets jumped on again by ad hominem attacks? From anyone?

    I won’t defend her again since she used that tactic on me and wouldn’t own it. She acted with dishonor. Plain and simple.

    I’ll not defend her again. Well, obviously I’d defend her if she was in actual physical danger, that’s humane and I do not dislike her. But in the war of words? She committed a technical foul against her own team on more than one occasion now and without adequate remediation. See Slartibartfast’s posts of remediation on the WTC thread for good examples of recovery from a misstep. He’s good. Am I mad at Jill? No. Disappointed, yes, but in no way upset.

    5) Swarthmore mom. I have to agree. She is owed an apology. That she does not require one says a lot about her character. If AY tells me you have vast life experience? He and I have talked on the phone quite a bit. Traded some hairy stories. His word on this issue is gold. But your response to this situation would have confirmed that even if I took AY’s word with a bit o’ salt. You turn you cheeks well and strike a good profile while doing so.

    6) If Smom is satisfied and I’m satisfied (Mike hasn’t weighed in yet)? Let it go unless Jill decides to go ad hominem again. She not a frequent offender. Might I suggest you just do as I will do. Next time she lights into someone or someone lights into her, just stand back and let the chips fall where they will. Jill is not respecting the dojo on argument technique. There is no shame in apology but there is shame in not owning your actions. There are consequences for being half-assed about it. Consequences like she can flounder on her own when the next Patty shows up and starts savagely beating her over the head (an apt description of what was happening too). Those were some serious fighting words and had they been in the same space, my bouncer instinct would have had me separate them physically.

    It’s time next time for some tough love. Jill wants to use the weapon? She needs to learn that misusing it has a price. Next time there is a “mishap”? We should just form a ring and let her and her opponent go at it. She’ll either a) learn to apologize properly, b) learn how to use the attack properly or c) learn not to use the attack if it’s beyond her skill or control.

  88. I wish to make a small point as it refers to the League of Women Voters. I might have led others to think that the League takes sides on candidates because while discussing candidates on this thread I mentioned my League experience. The League only supports/endorses issues after careful and in-depth study. The League never supports or opposes candidates. That is why we are able to offer neutral ground for “Candidates Night” in communities across the nation. The League of Women Voters encourages the informed and active participation of citizens in government.

    If I erred in a turn of phrase, I hope this corrects any misleading impressions I may have given.

  89. In a blog post about 58 percent of Americans saying they’d like to see this messed up kid tortured it looks like no ones even interested. Everyone is ranting about personal attacks and other random chatter rather than discussing this serious loss of common morality in our country.

    Could the greatest threat to our liberty and humanity ultimately prove to be our own apathy?

  90. ThirtyPercenter–

    I don’t think it’s apathy. I think we’re becoming a country that is losing its soul.

    Excerpts from the post at the Rasmussen site regarding the poll taken on December 30th of 1,000 Likely Voters:

    “Men and younger voters are more strongly supportive of the aggressive interrogation techniques than women and those who are older. Republicans and voters not affiliated with either major party favor their use more than Democrats.

    “Seventy-one percent (71%) of all voters think the attempt by the Nigerian Muslim to blow up the airliner as it landed in Detroit should be investigated by military authorities as a terrorist act. Only 22% say it should be handled by civilian authorities as a criminal act, as is currently the case.”

    “All these findings are explained in part by the belief of 43% that when it comes to national security the U.S. legal system worries too much about protecting individual rights. That’s up four points from November.”


    I wonder if this poll of 1,000 likely voters is truly indicative of what Americans think. I certainly hope it isn’t.

  91. Cheney is out advocating torure and the republican party is following him. Thinking that it is okay to torture has become commonplace after the Bush Cheney years. It is tragic. I think this poll is probably accurate.

  92. Buddha,

    I think if swartzmore mom is happy with the result, then I should be to. I don’t want to be accused of being a Pro Totalitarian. I certainly have enough to deal with.

    The problem with personal attacks and some folks, is when the attacks start you never know where they are going to end. I think its best if they get cut off quick and recognize them for what they are as subtle as they can be.

    Who knows they may be tied to the cycle of the moon. I certainly don’t.

  93. From Think Progress, 1/4/2010

    Politico fails to fact-check Rasmussen’s claim that he ‘has never been a campaign pollster or consultant.’
    By Alex Seitz-Wald

    Reporting on criticisms of right-leaning pollster Scott Rasmussen, Politico presented as fact his official bio as “an independent pollster” who “has never been a campaign pollster or consultant.” The article quotes Rasmussen’s critics, but fails to question his supposed independence:

    While Scott Rasmussen, the firm’s president, contends that he has no ax to grind — his bio notes that he has been “an independent pollster for more than a decade” and “has never been a campaign pollster or consultant for candidates seeking office” — his opponents on the left insist he is the hand that feeds conservative talkers a daily trove of negative numbers that provides grist for attacks on Obama and the Democratic Party.

    According to the non-partisan Center for Public Integrity, Rasmussen has been a paid consultant for the RNC and President Bush’s 2004 campaign. The RNC paid Rasmussen $95,500 between 2003 and 2004 for items listed as “survey,” “survey cost” and “voter data.” Bush’s campaign paid Rasmussen $45,500 for “survey research.”


  94. I think Rasmussen is a pretty accurate pollster. Nate Silver likes his work. He was the only pollster to get the Bush Kerry race in 2004 exactly right.

  95. Swarthmore mom

    From FiveThirtyEight
    Is Rasmussen Reports Biased?
    by Nate Silver (January 3, 2010)

    But there are other respects in which I’m much less sympathetic to Rasmussen’s case. In particular, this has to do with their choices of question wording and subject matter. The Politico question, for instance, points toward an August question in which Rasmussen asked “It’s always better to cut taxes than to increase government spending because taxpayers, not bureaucrats, are the best judges of how to spend their money.” That is not a question designed to elicit the most accurate reflection of public opinion.

    Likewise, Rasmussen recently produced a poll in which they purported to describe the Democratic health care plan to their respondents. Several other pollsters have found that support for the plan increases when it is actually described to respondents, but Rasmussen showed no such increase. However, the second sentence in their description reads:

    The plans before Congress would prohibit people from choosing insurance plans with lower premiums and higher deductibles.

    I don’t particularly know where this comes from; Rasmussen claims that its questions came from a ‘summary of the legislation provided by the New York Times’, but such a depiction of the health care policy appears nowhere in the New York Times article. But there it is in the Rasmussen survey, where it appears to be designed to build a relationship in the respondent’s mind between the Democratic plan and higher premiums.


  96. Buddha:

    “However, promoting altruism and punishing greed can both be systemically managed.”

    meditation on greed, altruism and rational self interest:

    say I inherited a 10,000 acre property filled with timber. The land is worth $3,000 an acre and the timber is worth $650/acre. The total value of the land and timber is $36.5 million.

    If I am greedy I sell the timber and the land and get $30 million because I want a fast sale.

    If I am altruistic I give the land and timber to the Sierra Club (or any charity).

    If I engage in rational self interest I determine how long it takes to grow trees to maturity, how much can I harvest for a sustainable income and what types of trees I can replant to maximize my profit on a yearly basis. I then open a saw mill and process my timber to sell to builders or furniture makers. I have also captured a bunch of carbon in my trees so I am a good steward of the earth as well.

    Greed and altruism don’t create jobs but rational self interest does.

    So you see there is a fourth, better way – Rational Self Interest.

  97. Byron,

    Alternately, you could (since you have no appreciable forestry experience), to a timber company and use the money to grow your engineering firm. Which would also be in your rational self interest.

    That’s a moot point though, because people aren’t reliably rational or self interested. We didn’t evolve that way. We evolved to be both altruistic and self interested.

  98. But Bob, Esq.

    That is why Timothy Leary had a plan to escape or an escape plan. I am not sure which but I know I did not so I did not go as far as I know.

  99. Gyges:

    In this scenario I have knowledge of forestry.

    But you are right, if I had that happen now I would probably grow my enigneering company. But I would tuck away a few hundred acres and stock it with elk, grouse, quail and turkey. Maybe put a big pond on it – 15-20 acres and stock it with those big accomadating trout you have in Colorado. The ones here in the east are too dam smart.

    One can dream.

  100. Byron,

    Greed does create jobs. Bad ones. Like the job “growth” in this country. It can be managed by regulation and taxation.

    Altruism can be promoted by tax breaks.

    Your assumption about rational self interest is still flawed.

    1) Rational. Not everyone is rational.

    2) Self Interest. Ego centric thinking. Me, me, me. You don’t have to be a genius to know that’s what got us the Fascist States of America.

    You are defaulting to your Rand habits. Rational Self Interest is none of those words. It’s a cloak to hide and justify greed. In addition your example is facile.

    You give an example based on personal inheritance and disposition there of.

    Pointless. That’s not what I’m talking about. Do what you like with your property, I’m talking about markets and the rules required to keep them from destroying society for a black balance sheet.

    What I am talking about is regulating the market to prevent abuses from any and all actors and promote the general welfare of society. That’s socialism.

    Systemic reform, not telling you what to do with your stuff but rather putting limits on how you can sell it. You can burn it if you want. But you can’t screw someone over with it. That’s called just and equitable.

    Let’s stick to your trees for a minute.

    Say your trees were needed for a specific reason that benefits the public and no other tree would do. They contain an enzyme needed to fight a pandemic. When you find this out, you quadruple the price. It’s in your rational self interest to do so. Even if people die. That’s called price gouging in peace time. In war time or emergency, it’s called profiteering. Yeah, it’s rational. It’s to your self interest. It’s also killing people. If you think your property right in that tree trumps the social value of saving a life? That’s simply soulless. Flat wrong too.

    And reason? Let me tell you something else about reason and logic. Ian Ketterling said, “Logic is a way to go wrong with absolute certainty.” Reason and logic do not always make right. Hitler had lots of reasons and Heydrich was very logical and the two of them killed six million people. Reason/Logic is a tool. It can used correctly or incorrectly. This has been demonstrated here in the many conversations we’ve had about basic logic. I’m sure you recall some of the arguments that are formally logical but totally incorrect but here’s a refresher.

    All telephones are beige.
    All UFO’s are beige.
    Therefore all telephones are UFO’s.

    Formally logical. Totally wrong. Reason is just another name for logic. But rationale and rational are two different words.

    To justify ego is using the tool incorrectly. The individual cannot survive without society. Individuals without society? That’s called barbarism.

    Socialism isn’t about redistribution of wealth. That’s a fiction perpetuated by the fascism crowd. That’s communism, not socialism. Socialism is about regulating markets key to the survival of the nation and humans as a species. Socialism is about maintaining the minimal requirements for society to function in times of crisis and times of wealth.

    Right now we have your “rational self-interest” playing out on the Hill. It’s in Sen. or Rep. X’s best interest to take the bribe and do what their masters say instead of doing their Constitutionally defined job in caring for all their constituents, not just their Money Sugar Daddy. TV time is pricey. But the result is an ever angering populace tired of being lied to and stolen from and being told to like it by clowns not smart enough to realize eventually it’s going to blow up in their cake eating faces. Viva la guillotine!

    Do you really want to say this is a success for rational self interest? If so, you’ve been re-integrated back into the Matrix, my friend. Someone slipped you the blue pills.

    Another example. If you think our system here has worked, I suggest you look at the FEMA response to Katrina . . . and shut the hell up. I was there. It was a travesty. A huge fucking joke subcontracted out to the highest graft bidder who provided toxic trailers and inadequate supplies and got paid for rebuilding structure poorly or not at all. Had FEMA been run the way Carter set it up? As a social safety net run by the government and deployed by the National Guard? It’d have worked like a charm. After Bush and Brownie were done with FEMA? It was a give away to mobsters and corporatist filth. It was so bad they even joked about it on The Sopranos. IT WAS A JOKE THAT MADE IT TO ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR SHOWS ON TV. ABOUT GANGSTERS.

    Yep. That’s rational self interest at work.

    The Rand way is simply ego worship, Byron. You want to think because you might do the right thing, everyone would. And that’s simply bullshit. We wouldn’t need laws at all if people operated like that. People like Cheney wouldn’t exist if that were correct. He’s reasonable all right and self interested to the bone. Also an evil treasonous traitor who has killed not just our soldiers but many many civilians all so he and Halliburton et al could profit. He deserves to have his head cut off and put on a pike in front of 1600 Penn. as a lesson to future sociopaths about what happens when they misbehave and betray the Constitution.

    Your rational self interest fails for two reasons. And they are ironically the same reasons communism was a failure and pure capitalism is also a failure. It not only ignores human nature on the whole (people don’t like being screwed with even if its in your rational self interest), it also manages to appeal to the very worst instincts of man – greed and ego worship. The law exists in part to protect us from unreasonable people. Your assumption fails on that alone. You assume reasonableness where there is often none. It also fails because no one self is more important than the whole. Individuals can exist because society creates the room needed to them to develop. Without society, it’s a survival free for all. And let’s see how many Van Gogh’s emerge from that mess. I’m going to go all Spock on you now. “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.” This is why LeMay was a war criminal for bombing Dresden and Truman wasn’t for using nukes to end WWII. One was death for the sake of punishment. The other was killing many so we didn’t have to kill many many more – and rest assured, had we physically invaded Japan? The death toll on both side would have made Hiroshima and Nagasaki a drop in the bucket. We’d have had to kill them all. At considerable cost to us too. Japanese terrain is mountainous and volcanic. One giant Guadalcanal.

    Sorry, your fourth way is another path to Hell trying to justify profits over people.

    It’s a way to go wrong with absolute certainty. Because society isn’t the individual. It’s all of us.

    Socio. In English it’s the Latin derived root of both society and socialism. It means “of society, pertaining to society”. It comes from the Latin socio, which is a verb meaning “unite, join, ally; share in”.

  101. First, let me say, thank you for such a long dedicated post, all to Muaw. How lucky am I.

    And this comment

    Stealing and misrepresentation are your specialty. We expect as much from the King of Copy Pasters.

    Got me in a sky box at Land Shark Stadium Sunday, Jennifer Lopez is hot. Thanks

    The operation is not about original thought, it’s to TRY and drive a message, propaganda as you say. This aint KFC where you can choose, crispy or original.

    Fraud, hoax, sham, who cares, same thing in my book. It’s a shell game and I’M SHOCKED as you say.

    Is releasing terrorist without a trial or charge against the law? Whatever it is, it’s not real smart. Oh, and your right about the warehousing. Exactly why they need to be moved to Illinois state prison, you know, the one thats empty that will provide lots of jobs and some more stimulus. Today we find out that not only did stimulus money go to non existent congressional districts, it went to non existent zip codes as well. See what happens when you follow the money.

    Again I’m not here to win a personality contest and B da man has more than just one meaning. Lots of kids look up to Bdaman. Bdaman has his own TV show, video games and get this, Comic books.

    Terrorist are a moving target. Yemen just happens to be the latest. PSSSST, in case you haven’t heard they closed a couple of embassies yesterday and releasing terrorist without a trial or charge is just as bad as holding them without. Terrorist are world wide they just operate under different names, Abu Syyaf, Chechen Rebels, FARC, Al Qaeda. Some even operate under their own names, Bill Ayers come to mind, oh wait, that was the Weather Underground.

    The group thing, again I’m not here to win a popularity contest. If it wasn’t for the modus operandi I would be posting in a different group where the views would be similar to mine. I could give you a few sites where you could post and you’ll see what I’m talking about. But you feel all to comfortable here cause you da boss, boss. Your not willing to go outside your comfort zone and I like being the bad guy, every movie has one Morpheus.

    I can kill a man with two fingers

    So can I. I first started my training at ATA before moving to Hop-Ki-Do. I can even do it with one, followed by a loud bang.

    Again thanks, and keep em coming, I’ll leave the light on for ya.

  102. Blah blah blah.

    1) Try is about right.

    2) You are simply noise. Sound and fury signifying less than nothing.

    That’s my point, troll. You are a fraud. Nice to see your NY resolution was to blast right in here and admit you are as perceived: an ignorant puppet of evil men. A barking dog with no teeth.

    You try. You fail. You repeat. Has it occurred to you your bosses mission plan for you was aped from the back of a shampoo bottle?

    Glad to see you’re still a legend in your own mind though.

    Welcome back, consistent hobgoblin. Nice to see you can still make a long post that says absolutely noting of value. Except further illustrate why you are our pet troll here. The designated bad guy.

    Ask not for whom the calliope calls. It calls for thee.

    Dance, monkey, dance.

  103. Buddha,

    If per chance Bdaman is black as he claims, even the Al Jolson type. Telling him to dance is racist. Don’t you agree?

    Even though a Chimpanzee can learn to type. I am unsure if they have brain, hand cooridnation.

  104. AY,

    It was intended to be a racist remark. The subconscious racism will always surface in the heat of battle. When caught, the racist will always deny the intent.

  105. Duh,

    Do you dance? I do not think that Buddha is racist. Can you admit that we are all racist about something? How about seeing something outside of your norm? And not accepting it for what it is. Whether it be gays, Arabs, Islander, Bush, Obama. We all have our prejudices in some way, some fashion. I don’t care who you are, unless comatose.

  106. Buddha:

    personally, if my trees were going to save people, I would sell them for the market value prior to the pandemic. I think it would be bad form to take advantage of a situation like that.

    However if the tree enzyme was discovered before the pandemic was on the horizon and the market price had risen 4 or 5 times, I would sell them for market value.

    I would not raise the price. Although there is evidence to suggest that when high prices are charged in an emergency more goods and services are delivered to the disaster sights faster because of the higher prices that are charged.

    Goods and services that would have been used by the portion of the population not affected are redirected to the disaster area because of the opportunity to make more money. You can make the case that lives are saved because of the speed at which a market can respond.

    Theoretically, once the goods and services are diverted it will only be a short time before the prices come down because of an over supply. The first people in will make a good deal of money but the next wave will not make huge profits. And the last guy in will be giving the stuff away.

    Even Mother Teresa was not selfless, although she did what she did for an eternal reward. But is that any less selfless?

  107. Duh:

    Buddha is not racist in any form or fashion, he does call them as he sees them. He has no bones with any man because of skin color, but he will call anyone out if he thinks they are wrong.

  108. “When caught, the racist will always deny the intent.” Isn’t that cute. The psychotic, er, psychic troll thinks he’s laid a trap. It’s a box propped up with a stick and a carrot under it. Duh . . . where does that sting lead to? Please.

    More amateur night argument.

    You think it’s racist to use monkeys as analogy? No. It’s accurate. Monkeys and chimps are our closest relatives. It’s not a black thing. Being a monkey isn’t about skin color. It’s about human behavior. You could be plaid and still be a propaganda monkey dancing away for your corporate masters. Every one acts like a monkey sometime. EVERYONE. We are a poo flinging, misbehaving species. Unless you think me calling Bush Chimp Boy is racist (because he looks like a monkey being shown a card trick and has thrown feces on the Constitution). In which case, you’d just be, duh, stupid.

    Here is what a REAL racist would say when caught:

    “Fuck you, Nigger.”

    Yep. It’s that simple. When I was a bouncer down here? I stopped a dozen fights that were started with that very sentence. Were I a racist? That’s how I’d start.

    I should know. I’m in a state full of the color BLINDED morons and I grew up around them too. I have relatives incapable of speaking about blacks without using the word. If I wanted to call him a nigger I would. But I don’t. Because I’m not a racist. And if I were? I don’t pull punches on ANYTHING else. Why would I pull punches if I were racist? Hmm? See, I own what I am. If I were racist? I’d go all out, genius. Unlike bdadupe. Who won’t own his own evil.

    And while were on the topic of color – I no more believe bdaman is black than I believe Cheney is a patriot. The only thing that interests me about bdaman is that he’s 100% evil puppet. And he dances for his masters just like a trained monkey. His postings over time belie that he is black and I’m not the only one here who thinks he’s a white male, 35-45 years of age, educated – just not very well, Roman Catholic and on a payroll. The psychological professional here even agrees with most of that profile. His little spiel confirms that analysis.

    Isn’t that right, Wayne? Got your ass kicked and then come back with some wild story about what a good time you’re having . . .

    Pattern analysis isn’t your strong suit either.

    If you have a problem with organ grinders or trained monkeys being used to describe the relationship between a troll and his masters?

    That’s your problem bdaduh.

    Again, English isn’t your strong suit.

    Contrast with making entire posts in Amos and Andy speak and calling people Christ Killer. Which is both racist and bigoted. Which bdaman is. And a confessed troll. Accuracy is a bitch, ain’t it?

    And what does a confessed troll do when caught?

    Try to distract.

    With an argument that anyone who knows me knows is ridiculous. I’ve said and demonstrated on more than one occasion that I find race, gender and sexual orientation one of the least interesting AND least pertinent facts about a person. I judge people by the content of their character as my grandfather taught me. A lesson he learned in blood during WWII.

    And badtroll only has bad character. He even wallows in it.

    So he can still dance, monkey, dance.

    If that, duh, offends you? Too damn bad. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again.

    You need a better trap than that. I’ve seen every Bugs Bunny cartoon.

  109. BTW, I do an outstanding gorilla impersonation. Spent a lot of time at the zoo as a kid with my dad.

  110. Elaine M.
    1, January 4, 2010 at 8:17 am

    I wonder if this poll of 1,000 likely voters is truly indicative of what Americans think. I certainly hope it isn’t”

    Me too.

    Maybe we’ll get lucky and find out the poll was conducted at a trailer park in Alabama.

  111. ThirtyPercenter,

    I’ve seen the Alabama Trailer Park data.

    They withheld it citing sample space corruption. That and no one would believe 120% of Americans what the underwear bomber tortured. Except FAUXNews and their mathiness, of course.

    And really. Isn’t being known as The Underwear Bomber torture in its own right?

    What’s next? The Brassier Brawler? The Panty Pimpernel? The Thong Assassin?

    (Note to Self: Contact Vivid Productions in re possible porn title – Thong Assassin. Absurd but titillating. Hm. On second though, contact CNN in re possible Nancy Grace episode. Or both.)

  112. Buddah,

    And they only have one set of Human DNA for the entire state. They have been able to determine which is animal DNA once and for all. It was difficult as the sheep would not stand still too long.

  113. Byron,

    I think you’re missing the point. Communism fails because it doesn’t take into account that people are sometimes lazy, self interested, and power hungry; your own bias is to over look that people are not always rational or self interested. Either way the main failing is the ignoring of human nature.

    Look at it this way: evolution isn’t always about individuals survival. Just as often it’s about the survival of the group. That’s why sickle cell anemia is so common in Africa. A single copy of the gene helps to provide a limited sort of immunity to Malaria (to risk over-simplification). So it benefits the group as a whole if a certain percentage has a copy of the genes that (I think it’s around 30%). The same goes for what we’d call personality traits. That includes being greedy, being a gossip (it helps establish in a group who can be relied upon and who can’t), aggressiveness, self sacrifice, etc. It benefits the group (probably around the size of the small tribes that were common for the development of humanity) for a certain number to be rationally self interested and another percentage to be selfless and charitable, and some mix of the two to be gossips, etc. so that’s how we’re wired in general.

    Any philosophy that acts like that isn’t true is just as doomed to failure as one that thinks people don’t need to eat.

  114. I love it, I’m Wayne, I’m Duh, hey maybe I’m Jim Burns baby Burns.

    Maybe I am white, maybe I’m black, maybe, I’m mistizo, mulatto, half breed,wetback,beaner.

    I may be all those things, including Monkey but there’s one thing I am for sure.

    I am laughing my ass off.

    Sometimes things have to be destroyed in order to rebuild.

  115. I see on another thread, a commenter is trying to decipher another commenters disposition. Is it his health? He responds that physically he’s fine except for the stress.

    You should get that checked out. Stress can make the walls crack, which leads to the pipes breaking.

    Hello, it’s me
    I’ve thought about us for a long, long time
    Maybe I think too much but something’s wrong
    There’s something here that doesn’t last too long
    Maybe I shouldn’t think of you as mine

  116. We are going to find out just how open and transparent this administration is with the open letter of C-Span to the Whitehouse.

  117. You miss the point bdatroll.

    Your name is irrelevant.

    You all represent the same thing.

    The enemy within.

    The one’s who started a war for money.

    The one’s who pissed on the Constitution.

    The one’s who help the outside enemy recruit by advocating torture.

    A name? What’s in a name. A treasonous traitor by any other name is still you and the people you support.

    You’re the modern American Nazis.

  118. The head of C-SPAN has implored Congress to open up the last leg of health care reform negotiations to the public, as top Democrats lay plans to hash out the final product among themselves.

    C-SPAN CEO Brian Lamb wrote to leaders in the House and Senate Dec. 30 urging them to open “all important negotiations, including any conference committee meetings,” to televised coverage on his network.

    “The C-SPAN networks will commit the necessary resources to covering all of the sessions LIVE and in their entirety,” he wrote.

    Lamb urged Congress in his letter to fling open the doors in the final stretch of the negotiations.

    “President Obama, Senate and House leaders, many of your rank-and-file members, and the nation’s editorial pages have all talked about the value of transparent discussions on reforming the nation’s health care system,” he wrote. “Now that the process moves to the critical stage of reconciliation between the chambers, we respectfully request that you allow the public full access, through television, to legislation that will affect the lives of every single American.”

  119. Laugh all you want. I like it when the butt of a joke laughs at it, especially for the wrong reasons. My point is proven. You are the enemy within BY ANY NAME.

    Do you get it now, Mr. Torture Aids The Terrorists? What people call you is irrelevant if they see your true nature: evil.

    You know Mussolini was laughing right until they hung him from a lamp post. I suspect your boy Cheney will be doing the same thing.

  120. we respectfully request that you allow the public full access, through television, to legislation that will affect the lives of every single American.”

    This will be key to whatever decision this administration makes.
    Obumbo campaigned that this would be his approach to the healthcare debate. Will this be another broken promise and more proof of a shadow government or will it be the most transparent administration ever. I doubt the transparent thing, Obumbo won’t even show the original data, he wants to hide the decline.

    Maybe he should force Rasmussen to hire Professor Michael Mann to hide the decline in his approval numbers.

  121. No, I dun , could jew esplane it 2 me a-gain boss, pardon, jefe

    Por tu d jefe,jefe, tu inteindes, to habla espanol

  122. Elaine:

    “She says she’s ready for a revolution!
    I say she’s ready for an institution”

    sublimer words were never written :)

  123. […] Twin Towers sent us careening into an alternative dimension where up is down, right is left, and torture is the American Way — in short we landed in Bizarro World, where we have been trapped ever since. The post-9/11 […]

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