Montana Voters Move To Recall Senators Over Votes Allowing Indefinite Detention of Citizens

We have been discussing the disconnect between citizens who have repeatedly opposed continued rollbacks of civil liberties and the Democratic and Republican leadership pushing for such rollbacks, including the recent provision allowing indefinite detention of citizens under the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011 (NDAA). Now Montana citizens have decided to try another approach given the non-responsive attitude of our leaders — they are moving to remove their two Senators from office over their votes in favor of indefinite detention powers.

Montana is one of nine states with recall laws. The other states are Arizona, Colorado, Louisiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, and Wisconsin. Eighteen states have recall laws, but most do not apply to federal officers.

Montana Code 2-16-603, on the grounds of physical or mental lack of fitness, incompetence, violation of oath of office, official misconduct, or conviction of certain felony offenses.

Presumably, they are arguing that voting for an unconstitutional measure that allows for indefinite detention of citizens constitutes both a violation of the oath of office and incompetence. Usually official misconduct does not include policy differences, though voting for potentially authoritarian powers would not be viewed as good conduct in a free nation.

The move by the Montana votes shows something that I found in doing speeches around the country: there is no difference in red and blue states in citizens (1) fed up with our current two-party monopoly and dysfunctional politics and (2) opposed to the loss of civil liberties in this country. This should be the time when civil liberties groups are pushing aggressively, but many are divided in their willingness to oppose Obama — a problem that has existed since the early days of his Administration when he tacked hard to the right on national security laws. These politicians, including Obama, have long made the cynical calculation that civil libertarians have no where to go politically and that votes continue to be motivated by party allegiance and the appeal of personalities. These Montana voters are trying to show that they are wrong.

Source: Daily Kos

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66 thoughts on “Montana Voters Move To Recall Senators Over Votes Allowing Indefinite Detention of Citizens

  1. For a state that voted what I recall to be the first female congresswoman, they again may be ahead of their time. I do agree with recall measures for all elected officials….if congress won’t do the right things for the country they represent then maybe the folks that put them in office can make a difference….

  2. I agree with JT that this issue is beginning to trouble more than libertarian and progressive components of the electorate.

    That said, if the US Constitution says that US senators shall be elected by the voters for a term of 6 years, how is a recall even possible?

  3. puzzling

    The Constitution also states the term of office for a President yet contains the mechanism for removal (impeachment) under certain circumstances. Senators are elected to represent the citizens of an individual state. It would seem logical that it be left to that state to establish and enforce the parameters for fitness of its representatives. But I’m not a lawyer and I realize logical doesn’t always equate to legal nor that legal is always logical, but it sure doesn’t seem to me to be an un-Constitutional action.

  4. I vote for indefinite detention for anyone who voted for indefinite detention, except that would mean I would have to indefinitely detained.

  5. I did a search for more info on the NDAA. I found a full throated defense of the bill written by Rep. Tim Griffin entitled “Don’t believe the rumors about the 2012 NDAA” claiming there is no provision in the bill allowing indefinite detention of US citizens.

    I had never heard of Rep Griffin, so I checked his bio. He’s a first term Republican from Arkansas serving on the Armed Forces, Judiciary and Foreign Affairs Committes and a 16 year veteran of the Army Reserves. He served on Karl Rove’s staff in 2005 and is a Tea Party favorite. Now I’m really frightened. Go Montana!!

  6. Thanks rcampbell…. Maybe some politicians kid will be detained and then we will see a change in interpretation…. Maybe even an act of congress….

  7. It seems to me that the one thing that you can depend on in this country is that if a politician says not to worry; you better start worrying.

    The parties do expect to be able to keep their grip on the nation.as you said ; because they have no other choice. But we do have a choice. I haven’t done the math but I know there are thre-hundred million people in this country and only a comparative handfull of politicians. If we stand up (even if we leave the kids home) there are what? two hundred million of us.

    I support Montansa and any other state that finds a way to end this plot to take our rights and freedoms.

    Both parties are guilty. Both are in league with the 1%. We just have to wait for the rest of America to see the light. To see that our interests lay not in fighting between the parties but in standing as one against our common enemy. The 1%. because they are in no way Americans. Americans would never do what they have done. these people are just Super-Wealthy and that has turned out to be a “Nation” all it’s own. A seperate power seeking World Dominion.

    Open your eyes America or be bludgeoned in you sleep.

  8. Here’s something they could add on to this complaint:

    Montana Sen. Jon Tester was one of just two Democrats to vote against considering President Barack Obama’s $447-billion jobs bill Tuesday. The vote to advance the legislation, 50-49, was well short of the 60 needed to overcome a filibuster in the Senate.

    http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/tester_votes_against_obamas_jobs_bill/24990/

    Even with his vote it still would not have passed but the perception is what counts,IMHO.

  9. “…there is no difference in red and blue states in citizens (1) fed up with our current two-party monopoly and dysfunctional politics and (2) opposed to the loss of civil liberties in this country.”

    The political spectrum in my own family is wide – far left and far right. don’t-know, and just-don’t-give-a-damn. We finally all agree: with the statement above. We all agree that Congress and the WH need a good clear out. Our discussion get lively again for what needs to happen after that.

  10. Can we have a pritned extract of the provisions of the new laws which permit the detentions? Can we have a list of all House Members and Senate Members who votes for this? It will help the discussion. In other words praise the lord and pass the ammunition.

  11. It seems a writ of habeas corpus has something of a tortured history in America. It was suspended during the Civil War both by Lincoln and the Confederates; during reconstruction; WW2; and during the 90’s through the presentn to one degree or another.

    Needless to say, the idea of locking people up for indefinite periods with no recourse is repugnant on its face in any situation but especially in a place that claims to be run by the rule of law and justice.

    But the issue becomes a bit more complex when the very system you hope to preserve is threatened by its very own laws and principles. Going against our basic laws and principles to preserve those same laws and principles is fraught with great danger and potential for abuse even if we can image times when it seems necessary (though I don’t know that it is ever really necessary).

    There is a tendency to think that only the bad guys get locked up and have the keys thrown away. Of course we know that all to often it is the innocent rather then the guilty who find their lives stolen away in this fashion.

    There is also a certain irony that many on the right seem to support the idea of putting the bad guys away as in Gitmo. They trust the government to do the right thing in picking who are the bad guys but they don’t seem to trust government to do anything else.

  12. I have two, long time, good friends who live in Flathead County (around Whitefish), Montana. They’ve been there well over forty years. Neither one is political and I don’t think I’ve ever had a political discussion with either one … until now.

    Baucus and Tester are gone as far as my friends are concerned. They have both signed up to work for the recall effort. It’s pretty amazing given their past complete lack of interest in anything that had to do with politicians.

  13. l’ve never been to this site before, was just doing some research and came across it. Seems most here are left wingers, and l wanted to say this to you all. l live here in Montana, have for most of my life. l am also a Tea Party member, gun owning, bible clinger. But you know what? This law is where the divisions that have been put upon us come to an end. This is not left or right, this is wrong or right. We are all on the same side here with this law. We can agree to disagree another day. Maybe if we’re lucky we’ll still have the right to do so…
    Peace my brothers and sisters…
    ~Montana madman~

  14. MM,
    You definitely should tell this to all of your friends and neigbors. This is exactly what i and others have been saying.

    We either stand together or we will fall because of our mule-headedness.

    Check out my blog. I wrote about this just Yesterday.

    http://angrymanspeaks.wordpress.com/

    It is wrong and it’s not the only thing that the Government has done that is wrong.

    I originally saw the Tea Party as a threat but over time I have come to see them as the only people besides the OWS who see the danger.

    This I believe is because in both cases the groups are outside the normal mainstrean Philosophy of the two parties.

    The Tea Party is farther right or supposedly so; than the Republicans and OWS is farhter left than the Democrats.

    This gives us both the unique opportunity to see the Two-Party system from the outside so to speak and what we are seeing; we don’t like so much.

    Anyway; read the article and feel free to get back to me if you want to discuss it further.

    Hey. I’m outa’ he-ah’.

  15. 1zb1,

    Ok. I’ll bite.

    Would you care to enlighten me so that I might not embarrass myself further by spouting Nonsense from my fingers and presumably my mouth?

    Or do you prefer to make unsupported accusations of my inability to make sense and just skulk off into the proverbial bush?

  16. Where to begin? “I originally saw the Tea Party as a threat but over time I have come to see them as the only people besides the OWS who see the danger.”

    The TParty and the Republican Party are one and the same. Until you show me one TP that votes for a Democrat, they are indistiguishable from each other. There is no sanity left in the Republican/Tparty. They are the party of HATE that has moved so far into the deep end that their only interest is destroying government and destroying the Union. IF THAT IS NOT A THREAT THEN WHAT IS?

    The aims, issues, and methods of the OWS has virtually nothing to do with the R/TP.

    What political system would you like: a three party, four, five, ten. You really think adding parties solves problems. What problem do you want to solve anyway? Which party represents closest to your ideals? Don’t see any difference? If you see the TP the same as OWS then probably not.

    Of all the issues facing us is this really the end all and be all that now drives your pollitical consciousness? Is your world that simple? You see no difference between people who are more concerned about the health of 2 cells in a womb then they do about healthcare for 30 million people? You see nothing odd about people on Medicare shouting to keep the Government out of healthcare? You think its alright to give tax cuts to the wealthiest people while sending young men and woman off to war? You think holding a tax cut for 160 million people ransom for a pipeline that has the potential to be a major envrionmental threat is normal?

    Wouldn’t it be nice if the world was all that simple? In the meantime give your self the opportunity to recognize the world isn’t. Time to wake up and smell the reality.

    Here, in case I missed something:

    WHAT OBAMA HAS ACCOMPLISHED:

    – Saved the country from Republican caused full blown depression. – Healthcare for 30 million people. – Rained in Insurance Companies – Financial Regulation of Banking Industry. – Killed Bin Laden. – Courage to go after them in Pakistan. (Republicans did not) – Got rid of Gadhafi in 6 months, 2 billion dollar cost, no American Lives. (Compare to Republicans 10 years in Iraq, trillion dollars, & thousands Americans lost) – Beat Republicans holding country hostage over debt crisis. – Ending Bush Tax Cuts for the Wealthy . – 3 Trillion in deficit Reduction (Super committee, Bringing Troops Home, End of Bush Tax Cuts for Wealthy) – Brought troops home from Iraq. – Stabilized situation in Afghan (Republicans had abandoned) – Ended Don’t Ask Don’t Tell (a vestige of Republican Bigotry) – Payroll Tax cut for middle class. – Extended unemployment benefits. – Got China to reduce currency manipulation. – Strengthened America’s Military Position in Asia to confront China. – Financial support to states and local governments for police & teachers. – Slowed illegal immigration and deported more criminal illegal immigrants then Bush/Republicans. – Protected Social Security and Medicare from Republicans. – Set back Iran’s nuclear program with software virus. – Opening up Miramar. – Fixing Republican Donut Hole Drug Plan. – Saving 100 Billion Dollars on healthcare plan. – Protecting Patients from coverage denial. – More health and job help for Veterans.- Saved American Automobile Industry that Republicans wanted to abandon.- Helped get $20 billion Aircraft Sale for Boeing. And more!

    WHAT REPUBLICAN’S HAVE ACCOMPLISHED: – Caused the worst economic crisis since Great Depression. – Lied our way into a trillion dollar war in Iraq (that has killed or wounded nearly 50,000 Americans) – Unfunded war in Iraq. – Unfunded Tax Cut for Millionaires. – Virtually abandoned Afghanistan. – Did not get Bin Laden. – Caused housing crisis. – Turned a 3 trillion dollar surplus into a 5 trillion dollar Deficit – Caused Banking Crisis – Made the whole world angry at us. – Sent millions of Jobs to China – Killed millions of Jobs in America – 911 – Held the nation hostage over the debt – No healthcare. – Increased the wealth gaps between rich and middle class. – Assault on personal liberties. – Ignored China’s growing power. – Did almost nothing to stop Iran nuclear efforts – Unfunded drug plan with donut hole – Gave Tax cuts to the wealthy even as we went to war. – Republican Appointed Supreme Court gave Corporations more rights then citizens. – Republican Appointed Supreme Court blocked campaign finance reform.

    WHAT TO EXPECT IF REPUBLICANS WIN THE ELECTION: (Based on past actions and statements by candidates)
    – More Tax Cuts for wealthy and big corporations;- Cuts to Social Security and Medicare and probable effort to eliminate;- Appointment of 2 new Supreme Court Justices like Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, Alito;- Overturning a Woman’s Right To choose;- Deregulation of Financial Industry;- Elimination of regulation that protects the environment, consumers, minorities, workers.- Elimination of worker’s rights to organize;- Ending healthcare for 30 million people; – Elimination of regulation of the Insurance industry;- Elimination of right to sue medical providers for mistakes;- Elimination of protection against insurance company denial of medical coverage;- Unfunded war against Iran;- Elimination of Child labor Laws;- Religious Takeover of government;- Higher taxes on middleclass and poor;- Cut in aid to Students and education;- Elimination of Department of Education;- Giving States the Right to discriminate;- Economic Trade War;- Destruction of National Parks;- Loss of Millions of Government worker Jobs thereby undermining effective government;- Attacks on Gay Rights and other minorities.- Increase in military spending on wasteful programs;- Keeping Troops in Iraq even though they don’t want us.

  17. Um……..MM if you are still around,
    You may recall I said we would all go down due to our Mule-headedness? Case in point.

    1zb1,
    While I appreciate your Liberal ferver I must tell you that you are still reasoning one level below the current operating level.
    The time has come to put aside the things that devide us. This battle is no longer definable in terms of political party.
    I would say that anyone who is still maintaining party loyalty is not seeing the big picture.
    The battle that we face today is not against the Republicans or the Tea party per se. It is against the 1% who hold the corporate money and power. It is against the Super wealthy who control both political parties and seek to impoverish and enslave all who are not of the 1%.
    Not every Republican is of the 1%. Comparitively few actually. Most are members of the 10% or the 20% but not the 1%. Well the 10 and 20 % are beginning to see that they are being threatened too.
    But go ahead and maintain the partisan politics as usual. The leaders of both parties are part of the 1% or are being well paid by them to push their agenda. To take away the rights of the people and ever increase the wealth of the 1%. To destroy the middle class and institute a Fascist state.

    But if you think working within the two party system will save us from destruction as a people; you hang in there.

    If you believe that your Democratic President is holding the Republicans at bay; you are deluding yourself. Both the Republican and Democratic Presidents and Congresses have been slowly eroding our Constitutional rights.

    Why?

    Because they are both; all; being paid by the same corporate giants.

    So the only way to stop these Fascists from taking our country from us (and consequently the only way we will ever be allowed to decide any of those issues you so valiently represent) is for the entire 99% to band together. Put aside our differences for the time being and get ourselves free of these parasites that are bleeding all of us dry and stealing our America.

    First save the house.Then after that; we can beat the hell out of each other over what color to paint the living room.

    Note: I don’t support a three, four, or five party system. i don’t support any system that tolerates private donations to political campagns and administrations or lobbyists of any stripe.
    I support OWS and I have invited the Tea Party, Republicans, Socialists, Libertarians, and any other American who wants to save his country from this dire fate to join the OWS Movement in freeing America. I did not as you have so presumptuously claimed offer to compromise my Principles, Political Philosophy, Morals, or Standards of Personal Hygene in return. I offered no concessions and I demanded none.

    I merely suggested that all of the 99% might have a bit more Push than only say 60% of the 99% has. That maybe; just maybe we could get our proverbial shit together and stop acting like battling siblings. Actually no because battling siblings will always stop and join together to fend off an outside or even a common enemy.

    Nonsense? Yeah I know It’s all nonsense. And it’s all fun and games;…….until the Flying Monkies attack.

  18. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act

    It appears this act is a huge bill that is renewed yearly and has been for the past 48 years. The Professor is pointing out that provisions within the bill are unconstitutional and represent a threat to our security as a nation, rather than protecting it against Al-Qaeda which is what the bill is designed to stop. The bill says that those accused of colluding with Al Qaeda as well as those accused of being Al Qaeda operatives may be detained without trial indefinitely.

    If I may opine, Professor, that this provision within the bill is a direct answer to the solo Al Qaeda sympathizers that we have seen recently. The government is scared of these individuals, hence this bill. I am not saying it is right but I would love to hear better solutions to this problem. Or is this just a Guantanamo-ization of our nation? Obama has clearly dropped the ball here.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/us/politics/obama-wont-veto-military-authorization-bill.html

  19. So AMS, you decided to double down on the nonsense with more “Nonsense? Yeah I know It’s all nonsense. And it’s all fun and games;…….until the Flying Monkies attack.”

    Guess what “The battle that we face today” IS against the Republican/Tparty.

    The dam is breaking and you want play pattycake with can’t we all just get along with the folks who want to take us back to the dark ages because the world is a little bit more complicated and nasty then suites you. Are you so completely clueless of the history of 3rd parties in this country. Read my lips, can you say Ross Perot and Ralph Nader. BTW: if you came up for a reality check sometime you would find there actually are quite a few 3rd, 4th, 5th, and to the N parties.

    FYI: Not every 1%er is part of the evil empire.

    BTW: I am all for fixing up a rotten system, I would just rather start from the present circumnstances then trying to fix it after we are taken back to pre-Paleolithic period favored by the Republican/Tparty and apparently yourself.

    Get that we are in triage. The first rule of triage is to save the ones you. The first rule of treatment is to stop the bleeding. And if you could see past your nonsense you would see that the kind of “Washington Doesn’t Work” politically correct media nonsense that you have bought into is really part of a willfull effort to make it not work to prove that “government is the problem”. Don’t you get their stratagey is to make government not work and you have bought it lock stock and barrel.

  20. http://www.salon.com/2011/12/28/snapshots_of_washingtons_essence/singleton/

    Excerpt:

    Americans love to think that they are so very informed as a result of the robust, free press they enjoy, while those primitive, benighted Muslims are tragically manipulated and propagandized by their governments. Yet here we have an extraordinarily consequential “vast drone/killing operation,” and while those in the Muslim world are well aware of what it is and what it does and debate all of that openly and vigorously, Americans are largely kept in the dark about it. That’s because: (a) the U.S. Government shields it all in secrecy (hiding it from nobody except their own citizens); (b) the U.S. media generally avoid highlighting the innocent victims of American violence; and — most of all — (c) this is all now enshrined as bipartisan consensus, with the GOP consistently approving of any covert government aggression that kills foreigners, and Democrats remaining mute because it is their leader doing it.

    That’s why this Post article provides such a vivid snapshot of what Washington is and how it works.Americans love to think that they are so very informed as a result of the robust, free press they enjoy, while those primitive, benighted Muslims are tragically manipulated and propagandized by their governments. Yet here we have an extraordinarily consequential “vast drone/killing operation,” and while those in the Muslim world are well aware of what it is and what it does and debate all of that openly and vigorously, Americans are largely kept in the dark about it. That’s because: (a) the U.S. Government shields it all in secrecy (hiding it from nobody except their own citizens); (b) the U.S. media generally avoid highlighting the innocent victims of American violence; and — most of all — (c) this is all now enshrined as bipartisan consensus, with the GOP consistently approving of any covert government aggression that kills foreigners, and Democrats remaining mute because it is their leader doing it. That’s why this Post article provides such a vivid snapshot of what Washington is and how it works. (end excerpt)

  21. 1zb1, didn’t you read this sentence in the article? “These politicians, including Obama, have long made the cynical calculation that civil libertarians have no where to go politically and that votes continue to be motivated by party allegiance and the appeal of personalities.” You can’t just sit there and say “angryman speaks nonsense” because it’s personally offensive to your biased POV. That’s the wholE POINT here : we are supposed to be working together. All you’re doing is continuing a little pet debate on how you hate Republicans. So please step aside while the rest of us fight for your freedom to be pigheaded. And FYI I do NOt identify as Democrat OR Republican (OR Lib, for that matTER).

  22. TMM,

    It seems that identifying with any party makes me feel as though i am betraying the American people. Even those who don’t recognize it.

    As far as working together: I don’t see another way for three reasons.

    First; it’s a numbers game. We need everyone or it won’t work. These fascists won’t be impressed by anything than a massive movement of the people.

    Second; it must be clear to them that not only the Liberals and OWS see the truth and demand the changes but the Conservatives as well because when they lose the Conservatives they lose their servants. They lose those who will ultimately benefit little from their plans but who are the majority of their supporters. So they must now that everyone is against them and they must be non-violently forced to relinquish control. Read Ghandi. Passive resistance is the only way.

    Third; If we; the TP and OWS are not working together to change the system then we will be working against each other. We must put our differences on hold for the nonce and defeat this monster of many arms that threatens all Americans. It has no National Loyalty to any Nation. It has no conscience. It cares not for any living thing but itself. It believes with all it’s granite heart that only it deserves to live with dignity or at all in fact because it is the only one powerful enough to succeed in destroying or enslaving all others and ruling. This is no exageration. Just look at the acts of these Huge Banks and Military Industies and ask yourself if the leaders have a conscience or a thought for anyone else.

    How to pay off the National debt or keep Soc Sec running is of no matter until the beast is dead and we the people can make decisions for ourselves.

  23. MM, Its kind of scary to me that after reading all the mm here i’m actually beginning to understand what sara palin means by “intellectual elite”. Its always wonderful to hear its all about my “biased point of view” or “please step aside while the rest of us fight for your freedom to be pigheaded”, or “you are still reasoning one level below the current operating level”. (talk about snobbery coming from the clueless).

    Do you folks ever actually “listen” to yourselves? When was the last time you stepped outside your cloistered minds and lives? Have you marched, or demonstrated, or actually put your lives at risk for anything or is it just this little game of talk talk talk wrapped in smuggness fit for a child who doesn’t know any better.

    In the meantime out in the real world the barbarians are at the gates while you argue over whether the folks standing between you and being eaten alive should be in jail. As for not identifying yourself with any party, I guess its too complicated for you to distinguish between those barbarians on the outside and the folks standing between you and them.

    As I’ve said elsewhere it seems like most of you might have a hard time deciding which side of the Civil War you were on. More likely you would do a lot of nothing except complain about both.

    BTW: as far as know Obama is the only one in this conversation that has actually pounded the pavement to fight for peoples rights. I have a feeling most of the rest of you are what we call armchair generals. You talk a good game but except for a very few I suspect thats about all it is.

  24. I think I finally get why we can’t reach agreement with this guy. If you think about it, it just a question of perspective.

    He has looked around his country and judged that the biggest threat is the Republicans. Just the Republicans.
    So he believes that what he should do is engage in verbal altercations with the GOP frontmen(Congress) about how wrong they are. He believes that supporting his favorite Democrat will actually bring the changes he seeks.

    He fails to see the real Republicans and Democrats; the leaders scurrying around behind him while he screams for higher taxes for the rich; taking away his right to scream or complain or support or vote for anything. he fails to see that their is only one party in this country now. It’s called the NWO party and it has swallowed up it’s only competitor and they have become one party; with one purpose; the enslavement of the American people. All of the people.

    He does provide an excellent example of the success of their Propaganda machine. He is buying into every distracting non-issue they throw out there. If we will all just follow his example; we can be in the ovens by evening.

    Ovens By Evening. It will make a great title for the Documentary about the Great American Holocaust. Should be out in thirty years or so.

  25. “Do you folks ever actually “listen” to yourselves? When was the last time you stepped outside your cloistered minds and lives? Have you marched, or demonstrated, or actually put your lives at risk for anything ” (1zb1)

    Yes, yes, and yes.

  26. […] Bill of Rights 1789-2011  National Defense Authorization Act Montana Voters Move To Recall Senators Over Votes Allowing Indefinite Detention of Citizens Final Curtain: Obama Signs Indefinite Detention of Citizens INto Law as Final Act of […]

  27. Some people believe that they’re bringing the army to the States to handle the OWS movement just they get out of hand.

    I’m voting for Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party

  28. Blouise, apparently you are the only one.

    You know I finally get why “we can’t reach agreement with this guy”. AM seems to think he is on the side of “we” – the we with the all seeing eye who understands the world so well, and then there is “this guy” who is out there all alone and understands nothing (along with just about everyone else in the world). ah, the poor ignorant unwashed i must be compared to the brilliant, insightful, all knowing “analytically gifted” rest of you.

    Just think how brilliant he is to forecast 30 years into the future: “Ovens By Evening. It will make a great title for the Documentary about the Great American Holocaust. Should be out in thirty years or so.”

    So of course if I make a choice between Republican, Democrat, Ron Paul (and whatever wacked out side of the Republican/tparty he is on) I must not “get it”.

    Meanwhile Tsucany is going for Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party, and AM is claiming he’s a far lef liberal who voted for Obama but is now voting for Ron Paul (if you believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you). So much for the “analytically gifted” who could not even read the guy’s website to know exactly who he is, but is now telling us what the world will be 30 years from now. (And to think there is actually somebody who responds to him like all his marbles are in place).

    Let me give you my take on what really separates the semi-sane from the completely off the wall. The “semi-sane” (that would be me and others) know and understand how screwed up the world is (if you really think the idea the President might lock somebody up for a while is the worst of it, you really don’t know jack), but deal with the reality of what it is rather then the delusion of what you think to fight the war. Whereas the insane give us dire warnings of holocausts 30 years from now, the semi-sane worry about what happens next year and how much worse the world/nation might be given the real choices we have.

    In the real world, fighting a war tends to be a lot harder then talking about it (though in some cases here its pretty obvious just talking about is a big struggle for them).

    The struggle for individual rights – its only been going on for about the last 10,000 years give or take about a 1,000,000 years.

    “It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants. ” Federalist Papers.

    Even if Ron Paul was a desirable person for President under the most idealized view of him (he is not by a long shot) any vote for him is a vote for the Republican/Tparty which, as bad as the world and any alternative is, would be the worst of the bad.

  29. Angryman is right: we must all work together to defeat the attack on our liberties by the 1% who own our government and the two-headed party that makes it up. 1zb1 has been totally brainwashed (hope s/he overcomes it soon). and Blouise isn’t the only one – my answers, too, are yes, yes, yes.
    Wish we had the ability to recall our pols here.

  30. Hey! Hey! Wake up in there. Ok; so now you suspect that I am seeking power? or is it just Ron Paul.

    If you are suggesting that my zeal for the rights of the people is hiding a lust for political power; I have two words for you and they ain’t ‘Let’s Dance”

    If you are arguing with me and taking the position that Ron Paul is hiding a lust for power and tyrany under his supposed zeal for the Constitution and peoples rights; Then you’re preaching to the choir.

    I have no idea where you came up with the idea that I am either a Republican; a Conservative; or a Ron Paul supporter.

    If you had bothered to read anything I write you would know that I am much closer to a Socialist than a Republican.

    You would know that every opinion I express is critical of the Republican Party. But I suspect you do know this and just like to piss me off.

    The only thing i can figure is that you don’t like it that I am also critical of the Democrats (you know; the Golden heroes of the people)..

    I wish i could agree but when the Democrats act just like the Republicans; how can I remain silent? Where is the differenciation between the parties?

    Actions speak louder than words and the actions of both parties say Fascist.

    BTW I am worried more about what will happen next year than 30 years from now. It’s just that instead of worrying about which Fascist will win the election; I worry about whether people like us will still be allowed to discuss these issues at all a year from now.

    Listen; one final time.

    If you live in a village and your enemy lives over the hill; you might fight with him about who owns the stream.

    But when the Dragon arrives to burn both villages; you don’t keep fighhtiong your neighbor.

    You join together to kill the god damned Dragon

    After the dragon is dead; their will be plenty of time to fight over the stream.

    If you keep fighting each other; the dragon will burn all of you and there will be no body left to give a tinkers damn who owns the stream.

    Now; do you still dipute the logic of my reasoniong or are you really so truely stupid that you can’t see the value in an ancient and proven effective strategy of warfare?

    Also I don’t know why you come here and single me out for your vitriol. Many of the others here agree with me on many points probably not all but many.

    But you really don’t present like a person who has any idea what he’s talking about.

    Republican; Ron Paul. What F–k–g idiot.

    And I mean really; you think it matters who wins this election.

    That in itself is a statement of self delusion and a narrow view.

    Both of the Fascists running for pesident want to take tyour rights away.

    Both want to take away your right to be consulted at all about anything. if you can’t see that or if seeing that; you still think you should spend ypour time deciding which Fascist you want to bend you over the table; well Ok.

    I’m telling you that neither Fascist will work for me and neither does the system that suggested them for the job of Head Fascist.

    Get it yet or are you still drinking formula?

  31. bk, you are so right, anyone who thinks fighting the folks with the gun pointed at their head and about to go off instead of jabbering about a delusion must be brainwashed. I urge you to vote for RP, Ricky boy, Mitt, Newt or whoever and see what that gets you. Must be great to live in on top of Mount Olympus suffering from hypoxia.

    Oh, and I invite you to answer my questions:

    What period in American History from the origin to the present most represents your ideal in principle and reality, and why?

  32. I have been sitting here reading this thread and it seems to me that 1 zb 1 is either not reading any of the other posts properly or is a plant to wind you all up.

    I should mention that I am posting from somewhere in Europe and am not American. However some 30 odd years ago I spent a lot of time in the US and fell in love with your country, as it was then. To me it seemed like a bastion of freedom compared with the neo fascism that, even then, was beginning to appear in the mainstream politics of many European states.

    Just recently though I have been amazed by the speed by which your mainstream politicians have made every effort to catch up with even the worst excesses of the European politicos. I would even go so far as to say that yours have now exceeded them. There are not many places in Europe where the incarceration without recourse, torture, or even murder, of so called “enemies of the State” is openly condoned or tolerated, even now.

    I agree with the posters who say that this is nothing to do with party politics. Neither right nor left. It should never be forgotten that the leaders of the Fascist & Nazi movements in Europe, pre WW2, all started out as dyed in the wool Marxists who then twisted that perverted philosophy into an even greater perversion. Because the world stood by and did nothing the leaders of both perversions were ultimately the direct cause of countless millions of needless deaths.

    I find it very sad to see what is happening over there and I wish you well in your efforts to try to stop it before it too turns into a perversion of “democracy”.

  33. DW: you are obviously clueless about American History and the events leading up to WW2, especially as it concerns the holocaust (not to mention what Japan was doing in their part of the world at the time). America was strongly isolationist – essentially the policy of Ron Paul and the libertarians today. Is was also generally indifferent to the holocaust. It did everything to avoid getting into the war. Only when the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor did it get involved. In fact when the US declared war on Japan after PH it did not declare war on Germany. Germany declared war on the US.

    So happens that many of the steps FDR took to prepare for war and help Britain and China were strongly resisted by the Republicans and the “Libertarians” (some might even say they were illegal). Jews trying to escape Europe where even turned back from the US. Of course, during the war Japanese American citizens were put in interment camps. (not withstanding that an all Japanese unit of the Army serving in Europe is the most decorated unit of the war). And of course Negroes served in segregated units throughout the war, even though the Tuskegee Airmen were among the most successful flying unit of the war.

    FYI: 10 million men and woman served in the military during the war. 2 million volunteered and 8 million were drafted.

    Maybe you need to spend more time worrying about the euro then joining in with the rest of the clueless bunch over here.

  34. Gene H

    That last, totally irrelevant to what I said, post of his/hers just proves the point.

    Not worth responding to.

  35. All this BS It’s time for all Americans to fight for our country, OUR COUNTRY I say and it will happen, It’s in forward momentum and there is no stopping it. I don’t wish for this to happen, but unfortunately It will. So Stand together, Family, Friends, Neighbors and Stand Ready, Stand United, The United States of America we are.

    “I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.”

    -Abraham Lincoln

    That bill is wrong and everyone that signed it. It’s our time again.

    Charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    “The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly.”

    -Abraham Lincoln

    Words from a true American Leader

  36. 1zb1,

    you lack common sense and logic to figure out who is corrupt and what the problems are

    your opinions arent beneficial to the American citizens that believe in freedom and independence

    ams,

    you are spot on. keep up the good fight

  37. Jaden, your comment is meaningless but unlike AMS at least you kept it short.

    Ironic that SU quoted Lincoln who himself suspended habeus corpus.

    Let me try to summerize a sense of the nonsense that has been posted on this site:

    Many seem to claim they are far left liberals but are voting for the far right liberterian Ron Paul; many seem to think Obama is the devil (at least when it comes to civil liberties); most think if you don’t believe everybody is a nazi your an idiot or stupid or ‘don’t get it”; many seem to feel Ron Paul is bad on every issue but he supports your idea of civil liberty so he is preferable; no one can identify a period in American History when civil liberteries were better then they are now; some claim the tea party and the OWS are actually more or less the same; most seem to be clueless about what the constitution actually says (let alone what it means or why); no one actually has any real suggestion how to achieve any improvement other then to vote for Ron Paul or ban together (I think some people might call that a form of political party) even though all political parties are the same; some people even suggest I am a “plant”

    I could go on but the bottom line is you all have the freedom to say such nonsense. You even have the freedom to believe that nonsense. And guess what, you even have the freedom to delude yourself that what you are doing is standing up for other people’s freedom.

    But in the real world, know this: your kind of nonsense voted for Ralph Nader and we all know what that result was. Now you may think both parties are the same but there is a pretty good chance that if we had a different President we would have had a different supreme court which means maybe we would not have corporate money running our elections to quite the same degree right now; we might not have spent 10 years, a trillion dollars and thousands of dead and wounded soldiers and civilians in Iraq; we might not have had those tax cuts for the wealthy and the giant deficits that followed; and we might have had a very different way of dealing with 911.

    So you people who claim to be on the far left but think all parties are the same; all candidates are the same keep arguing that Ron Paul, the far right so called liberterian candidate is your choice. And come November you just go ahead and vote for him or stay home and that way you can keep telling yourself how the world sucks and only you get it.

    You keep living in that delusion just as as long as you like.

    And so their is absolutely no mistake about it, I am a “plant”. I was put here by my own stupidity to waste my time with a touch or reality for many of the rest of you. As I have said elsewhere here.

    “I am completely unapologetic for Obama (unlike some here). I will support him without reservation. Given reality I believe he has done an amazing job (and sometimes even brilliant such as dealing with the debt hostage crisis) and outfoxed the Repulbican/Tparty nut cases time and again. [and the reality of the world as it is instead of the one we would like]

    I believe we are in the midst of the second fighting of the Civil War. That’s my pet issue. We either have hope for the future with Obama and the Democrats (as imperfect as that may be) or we take a giant step onto the dark ages with the likes of Ron Paul and the Republican/Tparty whack jobs.

    So maybe my question for you and some of the others is not about your outrage with Obama over your pet issue to the exclusion of everything else, but where is your outrage with what Republicans have done and what they say they will do in the future, including Ron Paul?

    But really, don’t bother yourself answering that. It was meant rhetorically. Your simplified grasp of everything about reality and the constitution would make it rather meaningless.”

    If it is any plants here it is many of you who are actually claiming to be liberals when what you really represent is the far right.

  38. […] Jonathan Turley writes: We have been discussing the disconnect between citizens who have repeatedly opposed continued rollbacks of civil liberties and the Democratic and Republican leadership pushing for such rollbacks, including the recent provision allowing indefinite detention of citizens under the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011 (NDAA). Now Montana citizens have decided to try another approach given the non-responsive attitude of our leaders — they are moving to remove their two Senators from office over their votes in favor of indefinite detention powers. […]

  39. And the one on the left was on the right and the one on the right was in the middle and the one in the middle was on the left and the guy in the rear was played banjo for the OWS.
    For Gods sake……No for “OUR” sake wake up and smell the freaking coffee, they’re all crooked, now what other choice do we have? Do you really feel comfortable allowing someone else to make decisions that affect your life and the lives of those whom you care about? If so whom do you trust to say which chemicals you have to eat as the result of Uncle Sam appointing the Surgeon General who is the nephew of the CEO of DOW Chemical (or whoever, you get my point) What I’ve read here makes you all sound like a bunch of twits with a paper ass-holes farting fireballs.
    The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing…-Thomas Paine.
    In two years when the economy is better and you’re all working again and rolling in the proverbial dough, John Q Public will stand up and say “Hey! A little help over here, this congressman’s son hit my parked car while driving drunk and they’re trying to cover it up.” ….and you will once again (just like 10 years ago) say, “Gee that’s to bad but I can’t rock the boat, I work for the Dept of Public Works and I might lose my job if I get involved.”

  40. Liberal, Quaker (so, a pacifist, of course.), ex-Obama volunteer and voter here!

    The man I voted for in 2008 has assumed that he has the right to take away ALL of our Civil Rights. If you get assassinated on President’s orders, your rights being gone is the least of your problems.
    *When you “disappear” your rights are gone..and so, of course, are you.* Just. Gone.
    Here’s the thing, Congress didn’t DECLARE WAR on any country or group of people. The entire premise is flawed. Military action was all under the control of the President, or if the President is weak, control is taken by the Military Industrial Complex. No Congress approval of a Formal Declaration of War= Unconstitutional= Illegitimate war=illegitimate martial law. They have built on some very bad precedents and the results are untenable. It has to stop.
    Does the thought of some of Dr. Paul’s ideas appall me? Sure. I’m Liberal and a Quaker; you know that means that I want to make sure that everyone is taken care of.
    But, that is something both sides can discuss after we’ve regained control of our corrupt and runaway government.
    Ron Paul is who I am voting for this year, even if I have to write him in. Many people that I know are doing the same. This is a man with principles that has 30 years of history to prove it.
    If we are careening toward a cliff, a hard change in direction is needed. Details can be worked out later. But, I don’t consider Human Rights as a detail.
    It’s kinda the whole point of this Democracy-Republic experiment we’ve had going on here, for the last 200+ years. (Remember, Politics aren’t supposed to BE Big Business.)
    It boggles the mind that we, as a nation have sunk so low.

    They came for the Iraqis, but I wasn’t Iraqi, so I said nothing.(very little) Then, they came for the Americans that happened to be Muslim, but I said very little because I am not an American Muslim. Then they came after ANY Americans that protested and I started paying attention to what was going on.
    That’s not a Government for the People OR by the People, in my opinion.
    That has to change.

  41. […] Montana Voters Move To Recall Senators Over Votes Allowing Indefinite Detention of Citizens Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. Leave a Comment by Alabama Truth Radio and TV on January 10, 2012  •  Permalink Posted in Alabama Truth Blog Tagged alabama law, alabama truth radio, alternative mentality, altmind, atr news, bill of rights, constitution, internet killswitch, montana, recall elections, senate, sopa, useless laws […]

  42. […] Montana Voters Move To Recall Senators Over Votes Allowing Indefinite Detention of Citizens No Comments by ATRNews on January 10, 2012  •  Permalink Posted in Alabama Truth Blog Tagged alabama law, alabama truth radio, alternative mentality, altmind, atr news, bill of rights, constitution, internet killswitch, montana, recall elections, senate, sopa, useless laws […]

  43. Dear Montanians,and other Americans who can read, Get this,listen good, When the Chinese,and the Russians are rolling their armored vehicles down our highways,and freeways,and city streets,then!,yes only then! will these lackeys be converted, if they live, for before they come rolling in here,they will have softened us up some,with bombing, yea,real serious bombing,the Nuclear kind,then they’ll kill,everything and break things,thats what they do! mercy is not in their training! they are very hard, and very good at what they do, they are sharks circleling,they smell blood and they are coming,make no mistake,our leadership has thrown us under the bus for the sake of a nice hot tub and some promise that will not be delivered, remember Haman, Purim, and his ten sons. after they’re here for a while,they’ll take you and make you a slave,tear your families apart,send you overseas,cracking rocks into little rocks or whatever conquerers do to those they’ve conquered, it will be the children who save us,who bring this country back, they will have a zeal for the Lord,and do what must be done.
    I suggest you prepare to help them when that time comes, get ready, it will be like it was 250 years ago, no power,gas, just blood sweat and tears, plan accordingly. read up on the old ways of doing things, hurry up,cause their isn’t much time left with things the way they are. Good luck, God bless you, and keep you,and pray alot.

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