We have been discussing the disconnect between citizens who have repeatedly opposed continued rollbacks of civil liberties and the Democratic and Republican leadership pushing for such rollbacks, including the recent provision allowing indefinite detention of citizens under the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011 (NDAA). Now Montana citizens have decided to try another approach given the non-responsive attitude of our leaders — they are moving to remove their two Senators from office over their votes in favor of indefinite detention powers.
Montana is one of nine states with recall laws. The other states are Arizona, Colorado, Louisiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, and Wisconsin. Eighteen states have recall laws, but most do not apply to federal officers.
Montana Code 2-16-603, on the grounds of physical or mental lack of fitness, incompetence, violation of oath of office, official misconduct, or conviction of certain felony offenses.
Presumably, they are arguing that voting for an unconstitutional measure that allows for indefinite detention of citizens constitutes both a violation of the oath of office and incompetence. Usually official misconduct does not include policy differences, though voting for potentially authoritarian powers would not be viewed as good conduct in a free nation.
The move by the Montana votes shows something that I found in doing speeches around the country: there is no difference in red and blue states in citizens (1) fed up with our current two-party monopoly and dysfunctional politics and (2) opposed to the loss of civil liberties in this country. This should be the time when civil liberties groups are pushing aggressively, but many are divided in their willingness to oppose Obama — a problem that has existed since the early days of his Administration when he tacked hard to the right on national security laws. These politicians, including Obama, have long made the cynical calculation that civil libertarians have no where to go politically and that votes continue to be motivated by party allegiance and the appeal of personalities. These Montana voters are trying to show that they are wrong.
Source: Daily Kos
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Gene H
That last, totally irrelevant to what I said, post of his/hers just proves the point.
Not worth responding to.
DW,
Of course he’s a plant.
AMS,
Well argued, all the way!
I have been sitting here reading this thread and it seems to me that 1 zb 1 is either not reading any of the other posts properly or is a plant to wind you all up.
I should mention that I am posting from somewhere in Europe and am not American. However some 30 odd years ago I spent a lot of time in the US and fell in love with your country, as it was then. To me it seemed like a bastion of freedom compared with the neo fascism that, even then, was beginning to appear in the mainstream politics of many European states.
Just recently though I have been amazed by the speed by which your mainstream politicians have made every effort to catch up with even the worst excesses of the European politicos. I would even go so far as to say that yours have now exceeded them. There are not many places in Europe where the incarceration without recourse, torture, or even murder, of so called “enemies of the State” is openly condoned or tolerated, even now.
I agree with the posters who say that this is nothing to do with party politics. Neither right nor left. It should never be forgotten that the leaders of the Fascist & Nazi movements in Europe, pre WW2, all started out as dyed in the wool Marxists who then twisted that perverted philosophy into an even greater perversion. Because the world stood by and did nothing the leaders of both perversions were ultimately the direct cause of countless millions of needless deaths.
I find it very sad to see what is happening over there and I wish you well in your efforts to try to stop it before it too turns into a perversion of “democracy”.
DW: you are obviously clueless about American History and the events leading up to WW2, especially as it concerns the holocaust (not to mention what Japan was doing in their part of the world at the time). America was strongly isolationist – essentially the policy of Ron Paul and the libertarians today. Is was also generally indifferent to the holocaust. It did everything to avoid getting into the war. Only when the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor did it get involved. In fact when the US declared war on Japan after PH it did not declare war on Germany. Germany declared war on the US.
So happens that many of the steps FDR took to prepare for war and help Britain and China were strongly resisted by the Republicans and the “Libertarians” (some might even say they were illegal). Jews trying to escape Europe where even turned back from the US. Of course, during the war Japanese American citizens were put in interment camps. (not withstanding that an all Japanese unit of the Army serving in Europe is the most decorated unit of the war). And of course Negroes served in segregated units throughout the war, even though the Tuskegee Airmen were among the most successful flying unit of the war.
FYI: 10 million men and woman served in the military during the war. 2 million volunteered and 8 million were drafted.
Maybe you need to spend more time worrying about the euro then joining in with the rest of the clueless bunch over here.
Angryman is right: we must all work together to defeat the attack on our liberties by the 1% who own our government and the two-headed party that makes it up. 1zb1 has been totally brainwashed (hope s/he overcomes it soon). and Blouise isn’t the only one – my answers, too, are yes, yes, yes.
Wish we had the ability to recall our pols here.
bk, you are so right, anyone who thinks fighting the folks with the gun pointed at their head and about to go off instead of jabbering about a delusion must be brainwashed. I urge you to vote for RP, Ricky boy, Mitt, Newt or whoever and see what that gets you. Must be great to live in on top of Mount Olympus suffering from hypoxia.
Oh, and I invite you to answer my questions:
What period in American History from the origin to the present most represents your ideal in principle and reality, and why?
Some people believe that they’re bringing the army to the States to handle the OWS movement just they get out of hand.
I’m voting for Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party
Hey! Hey! Wake up in there. Ok; so now you suspect that I am seeking power? or is it just Ron Paul.
If you are suggesting that my zeal for the rights of the people is hiding a lust for political power; I have two words for you and they ain’t ‘Let’s Dance”
If you are arguing with me and taking the position that Ron Paul is hiding a lust for power and tyrany under his supposed zeal for the Constitution and peoples rights; Then you’re preaching to the choir.
I have no idea where you came up with the idea that I am either a Republican; a Conservative; or a Ron Paul supporter.
If you had bothered to read anything I write you would know that I am much closer to a Socialist than a Republican.
You would know that every opinion I express is critical of the Republican Party. But I suspect you do know this and just like to piss me off.
The only thing i can figure is that you don’t like it that I am also critical of the Democrats (you know; the Golden heroes of the people)..
I wish i could agree but when the Democrats act just like the Republicans; how can I remain silent? Where is the differenciation between the parties?
Actions speak louder than words and the actions of both parties say Fascist.
BTW I am worried more about what will happen next year than 30 years from now. It’s just that instead of worrying about which Fascist will win the election; I worry about whether people like us will still be allowed to discuss these issues at all a year from now.
Listen; one final time.
If you live in a village and your enemy lives over the hill; you might fight with him about who owns the stream.
But when the Dragon arrives to burn both villages; you don’t keep fighhtiong your neighbor.
You join together to kill the god damned Dragon
After the dragon is dead; their will be plenty of time to fight over the stream.
If you keep fighting each other; the dragon will burn all of you and there will be no body left to give a tinkers damn who owns the stream.
Now; do you still dipute the logic of my reasoniong or are you really so truely stupid that you can’t see the value in an ancient and proven effective strategy of warfare?
Also I don’t know why you come here and single me out for your vitriol. Many of the others here agree with me on many points probably not all but many.
But you really don’t present like a person who has any idea what he’s talking about.
Republican; Ron Paul. What F–k–g idiot.
And I mean really; you think it matters who wins this election.
That in itself is a statement of self delusion and a narrow view.
Both of the Fascists running for pesident want to take tyour rights away.
Both want to take away your right to be consulted at all about anything. if you can’t see that or if seeing that; you still think you should spend ypour time deciding which Fascist you want to bend you over the table; well Ok.
I’m telling you that neither Fascist will work for me and neither does the system that suggested them for the job of Head Fascist.
Get it yet or are you still drinking formula?
Blouise,
Amen, but it has been awhile!
“Do you folks ever actually “listen” to yourselves? When was the last time you stepped outside your cloistered minds and lives? Have you marched, or demonstrated, or actually put your lives at risk for anything ” (1zb1)
Yes, yes, and yes.
Blouise, apparently you are the only one.
You know I finally get why “we can’t reach agreement with this guy”. AM seems to think he is on the side of “we” – the we with the all seeing eye who understands the world so well, and then there is “this guy” who is out there all alone and understands nothing (along with just about everyone else in the world). ah, the poor ignorant unwashed i must be compared to the brilliant, insightful, all knowing “analytically gifted” rest of you.
Just think how brilliant he is to forecast 30 years into the future: “Ovens By Evening. It will make a great title for the Documentary about the Great American Holocaust. Should be out in thirty years or so.”
So of course if I make a choice between Republican, Democrat, Ron Paul (and whatever wacked out side of the Republican/tparty he is on) I must not “get it”.
Meanwhile Tsucany is going for Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party, and AM is claiming he’s a far lef liberal who voted for Obama but is now voting for Ron Paul (if you believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you). So much for the “analytically gifted” who could not even read the guy’s website to know exactly who he is, but is now telling us what the world will be 30 years from now. (And to think there is actually somebody who responds to him like all his marbles are in place).
Let me give you my take on what really separates the semi-sane from the completely off the wall. The “semi-sane” (that would be me and others) know and understand how screwed up the world is (if you really think the idea the President might lock somebody up for a while is the worst of it, you really don’t know jack), but deal with the reality of what it is rather then the delusion of what you think to fight the war. Whereas the insane give us dire warnings of holocausts 30 years from now, the semi-sane worry about what happens next year and how much worse the world/nation might be given the real choices we have.
In the real world, fighting a war tends to be a lot harder then talking about it (though in some cases here its pretty obvious just talking about is a big struggle for them).
The struggle for individual rights – its only been going on for about the last 10,000 years give or take about a 1,000,000 years.
“It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants. ” Federalist Papers.
Even if Ron Paul was a desirable person for President under the most idealized view of him (he is not by a long shot) any vote for him is a vote for the Republican/Tparty which, as bad as the world and any alternative is, would be the worst of the bad.
I think I finally get why we can’t reach agreement with this guy. If you think about it, it just a question of perspective.
He has looked around his country and judged that the biggest threat is the Republicans. Just the Republicans.
So he believes that what he should do is engage in verbal altercations with the GOP frontmen(Congress) about how wrong they are. He believes that supporting his favorite Democrat will actually bring the changes he seeks.
He fails to see the real Republicans and Democrats; the leaders scurrying around behind him while he screams for higher taxes for the rich; taking away his right to scream or complain or support or vote for anything. he fails to see that their is only one party in this country now. It’s called the NWO party and it has swallowed up it’s only competitor and they have become one party; with one purpose; the enslavement of the American people. All of the people.
He does provide an excellent example of the success of their Propaganda machine. He is buying into every distracting non-issue they throw out there. If we will all just follow his example; we can be in the ovens by evening.
Ovens By Evening. It will make a great title for the Documentary about the Great American Holocaust. Should be out in thirty years or so.
TMM,
It seems that identifying with any party makes me feel as though i am betraying the American people. Even those who don’t recognize it.
As far as working together: I don’t see another way for three reasons.
First; it’s a numbers game. We need everyone or it won’t work. These fascists won’t be impressed by anything than a massive movement of the people.
Second; it must be clear to them that not only the Liberals and OWS see the truth and demand the changes but the Conservatives as well because when they lose the Conservatives they lose their servants. They lose those who will ultimately benefit little from their plans but who are the majority of their supporters. So they must now that everyone is against them and they must be non-violently forced to relinquish control. Read Ghandi. Passive resistance is the only way.
Third; If we; the TP and OWS are not working together to change the system then we will be working against each other. We must put our differences on hold for the nonce and defeat this monster of many arms that threatens all Americans. It has no National Loyalty to any Nation. It has no conscience. It cares not for any living thing but itself. It believes with all it’s granite heart that only it deserves to live with dignity or at all in fact because it is the only one powerful enough to succeed in destroying or enslaving all others and ruling. This is no exageration. Just look at the acts of these Huge Banks and Military Industies and ask yourself if the leaders have a conscience or a thought for anyone else.
How to pay off the National debt or keep Soc Sec running is of no matter until the beast is dead and we the people can make decisions for ourselves.
1zb1, didn’t you read this sentence in the article? “These politicians, including Obama, have long made the cynical calculation that civil libertarians have no where to go politically and that votes continue to be motivated by party allegiance and the appeal of personalities.” You can’t just sit there and say “angryman speaks nonsense” because it’s personally offensive to your biased POV. That’s the wholE POINT here : we are supposed to be working together. All you’re doing is continuing a little pet debate on how you hate Republicans. So please step aside while the rest of us fight for your freedom to be pigheaded. And FYI I do NOt identify as Democrat OR Republican (OR Lib, for that matTER).
MM, Its kind of scary to me that after reading all the mm here i’m actually beginning to understand what sara palin means by “intellectual elite”. Its always wonderful to hear its all about my “biased point of view” or “please step aside while the rest of us fight for your freedom to be pigheaded”, or “you are still reasoning one level below the current operating level”. (talk about snobbery coming from the clueless).
Do you folks ever actually “listen” to yourselves? When was the last time you stepped outside your cloistered minds and lives? Have you marched, or demonstrated, or actually put your lives at risk for anything or is it just this little game of talk talk talk wrapped in smuggness fit for a child who doesn’t know any better.
In the meantime out in the real world the barbarians are at the gates while you argue over whether the folks standing between you and being eaten alive should be in jail. As for not identifying yourself with any party, I guess its too complicated for you to distinguish between those barbarians on the outside and the folks standing between you and them.
As I’ve said elsewhere it seems like most of you might have a hard time deciding which side of the Civil War you were on. More likely you would do a lot of nothing except complain about both.
BTW: as far as know Obama is the only one in this conversation that has actually pounded the pavement to fight for peoples rights. I have a feeling most of the rest of you are what we call armchair generals. You talk a good game but except for a very few I suspect thats about all it is.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/house-races/201519-kucinich-files-for-run-against-kaptur The winner will face Joe the plumber.
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/28/snapshots_of_washingtons_essence/singleton/
Excerpt:
Americans love to think that they are so very informed as a result of the robust, free press they enjoy, while those primitive, benighted Muslims are tragically manipulated and propagandized by their governments. Yet here we have an extraordinarily consequential “vast drone/killing operation,” and while those in the Muslim world are well aware of what it is and what it does and debate all of that openly and vigorously, Americans are largely kept in the dark about it. That’s because: (a) the U.S. Government shields it all in secrecy (hiding it from nobody except their own citizens); (b) the U.S. media generally avoid highlighting the innocent victims of American violence; and — most of all — (c) this is all now enshrined as bipartisan consensus, with the GOP consistently approving of any covert government aggression that kills foreigners, and Democrats remaining mute because it is their leader doing it.
That’s why this Post article provides such a vivid snapshot of what Washington is and how it works.Americans love to think that they are so very informed as a result of the robust, free press they enjoy, while those primitive, benighted Muslims are tragically manipulated and propagandized by their governments. Yet here we have an extraordinarily consequential “vast drone/killing operation,” and while those in the Muslim world are well aware of what it is and what it does and debate all of that openly and vigorously, Americans are largely kept in the dark about it. That’s because: (a) the U.S. Government shields it all in secrecy (hiding it from nobody except their own citizens); (b) the U.S. media generally avoid highlighting the innocent victims of American violence; and — most of all — (c) this is all now enshrined as bipartisan consensus, with the GOP consistently approving of any covert government aggression that kills foreigners, and Democrats remaining mute because it is their leader doing it. That’s why this Post article provides such a vivid snapshot of what Washington is and how it works. (end excerpt)
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.715a7668fe9975340c7a6290b761a373.01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act
It appears this act is a huge bill that is renewed yearly and has been for the past 48 years. The Professor is pointing out that provisions within the bill are unconstitutional and represent a threat to our security as a nation, rather than protecting it against Al-Qaeda which is what the bill is designed to stop. The bill says that those accused of colluding with Al Qaeda as well as those accused of being Al Qaeda operatives may be detained without trial indefinitely.
If I may opine, Professor, that this provision within the bill is a direct answer to the solo Al Qaeda sympathizers that we have seen recently. The government is scared of these individuals, hence this bill. I am not saying it is right but I would love to hear better solutions to this problem. Or is this just a Guantanamo-ization of our nation? Obama has clearly dropped the ball here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/us/politics/obama-wont-veto-military-authorization-bill.html