We have previously discusses alarming moves in France to limit or deny speech through blasphemy prosecutions to hate speech to barring “antihistorical” speech. Now, in the wake of the recent killings by a Muslim extremist, the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy is proposing a new law that would jail repeat visitors to extremist web sites. It is a measure that strips away core free speech rights of citizens and gives the government a new ambiguous power to arrest people for the things that they read.
Sarkozy insists that such websites should be treated the same as child pornography and that “anyone who regularly consults Internet sites which promote terror or hatred or violence will be sentenced to prison.” Of course, child pornography contains an objective identifiable component to the child — picture of a minor engaged in sexual conduct. Sarkozy’s Internet law would leave it to the government to determine what sites are espousing “terrorist” viewpoints. Authoritarian governments have long defined critics as criminals and terrorists from China to Iran to North Korea.
Sarkozy expressed impatience with those who raise the niceties of free speech: “Don’t tell me it’s not possible. What is possible for pedophiles should be possible for trainee terrorists and their supporters, too.”
So, Sarkozy will identify those people “in training” to be terrorists.
It is a pattern that is all too familiar to Americans. After an individual or group commits a heinous act of terror, the government immediately uses the attack to limit freedoms of all citizens and to expand its own ill-defined powers. In this case, Sarkozy’s prospects for reelection increased with the massacre and he appears to be riding the backlash following the attacks.
It appears however that the last victim of these attack will be free speech in France.
Source: Yahoo
Well at least he isn’t sending drones out to kill people who he THINKS might be “terrorists” without due process…just arresting them.
Gezzzz must be bad when THIS kind of abuse looks good…Hahhahhaha
John has a point.
Oh, and of course they will be careful not to go beyond the parameters of that censorship.
Why not just ban those type websites and be done with it. Less administration.
France is liding away from free speech. Are we far behind?
Well at least he isn’t sending drones out to kill people who he THINKS might be “terrorists” without due process…just arresting them. -John
No, he has us to do it for him.
Measures like the one proposed by Sarkozy won’t be effective and may, in the end, make things worse.
“Authoritarian governments have long defined critics as criminals and terrorists from China to Iran to North Korea.” -Jonathan Turley
Let me correct that: “Authoritarian governments have long defined critics as criminals and terrorists from China to Iran to North Korea” to the United States. We’re not simply not as “open” about our means of oppression. But make no mistake, we have our own “methods”…
Reactionary…… But revolutions are reactionary as well….. Oh, wait a minute….. You’ve hired gonzo, Bebee, yoo and rove as part of your legal staff and election team… Right?
“We are, like, that far from a turnkey totalitarian state,” he says.
~~former NSA official and crypto-math William (Bill) Binney, as reported in Wired Magazine, April 2012, as he held his thumb and forefinger a short distance apart
March 21, 2012 | By Trevor Timm
NSA Chief Appears to Deny Ability to Warrantlessly Wiretap Despite Evidence
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/03/nsa-chief-denies-ability-warrantlessly-wiretap-despite-evidence
Feeling that “stellar wind”… but, hey, “it could never happen here”…
Merah apparently worked alongside his brother and perhaps with the knowledge of a friend, but Al-Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri probably knew nothing about his intentions. But ultimately, even if Merah “only” shared Al-Qaida’s views and was not an integral part of the organization, it is clear that extremist Islam is trying to lash out in order to prove it is still relevant in the wake of the Arab Spring.
Merah, who died following a shoot-out with French police yesterday, was a “classic candidate” for Al-Qaida membership. He was 23, of Algerian descent, and visited Pakistan and Afghanistan. In France, he joined the Knights of Pride, a radical Salafi group that France outlawed last January after it called for a non-recognition of the country’s secular, democratic regime. The French security forces had group members, including Merah, under surveillance, but he managed to give them the slip.
In many senses, the terrorist from Toulouse was a relatively small headache for Western intelligence. He was a known target, they had information about him, and he was under surveillance. The more meaningful threat in Europe and the United States is from dormant, unknown activists, who are believed to be present in every major European city. Some were born there, others immigrated from Muslim countries.
Alongside the events in Toulouse, Egypt reportedly arrested two suspects Wednesday in a plot to strike a Western ship entering the Suez Canal. The two, apparently Islamic extremists, wanted to hit both Western targets and the Egyptian economy. The extremists are displeased by Egypt’s transformation and the growing strength of political Islam there, namely among the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafi Al-Nour party. In Iraq, Sunni organizations continue to launch terror attacks, and in Syria, a Sunni group claimed responsibility for the car bombings in Damascus last weekend that left dozens dead.
Osama bin Laden may be dead, but his doctrine and ideas are alive and kicking. by Avi Issacharoff for Hareetz.com
“…the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy is proposing a new law that would jail repeat visitors to extremist web sites.” -Jonathan Turley
What about journalists or others who might be doing research? What about those who are merely intellectually curious?
“Look homeward, angel(s)”…
Well thank Pasta! This will solve the problems France has with terrorism.
Osama bin Laden may be dead, but his doctrine and ideas are alive and kicking. —–by Avi Issacharoff for Hareetz.com (article posted by Swarthmore mom)
So we should all continue to be very, very afraid. Any and all measures implemented by the government are necessary — the government will take care of us.
That we might be radicalizing others by our policies is just a detail that is better ignored.
anon nurse, I realized that posting something from the liberal Jewish newspaper, Hareetz, might cause some concern for some here but I read that and al-jazeera for news. Posting that was not meant to be an endorsement of Sarkozy’s proposal but quite the opposite. I was trying to show the shooter was already under surveillance and slipped through so why would additional measures be needed. If one has not been able to visit Europe recently and witness the segregation and poverty of the large Muslim population, one has no idea how potentially dangerous it is to everyone involved.
If I lived in France, I would vote for the democrat guy running against him–early and often. Is Zarkosy from Corsica, or is his family from there?
“I realized that posting something from the liberal Jewish newspaper, Hareetz, might cause some concern for some here but I read that and al-jazeera for news.” -Swarthmore mom
No “concern” on my part, Swarthmore mom
(I was only addressing the substance of the article that you posted. You didn’t add any commentary, so I didn’t draw any conclusion about your particular position/s.
SWm:
” If one has not been able to visit Europe recently and witness the segregation and poverty of the large Muslim population, one has no idea how potentially dangerous it is to everyone involved.”
We don’t have to leave the homeland.
“Documents on NYPD spying have been coming out on a regular basis for months now. Every time a new story has come out, Bloomberg and Kelly either have denied the police are engaged in such operations or they have tried to excuse the operations by saying that this is what must be done to prevent terrorism”
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/03/09/yet-another-ap-report-is-released-on-nypd-spying-on-muslims/
The French authorities have much to answer for to their citizens especially when one considers the amount of time that elapsed between the two shooting incidents and the fact that Merah had slipped through the cracks in their security plans.
Sarkozy is pulling a “Bush” as he seeks to find cover and in the seeking turns up the wattage on the very truth he is attempting to hide.
In the words of his famous countryman:
“Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.” (Napoleon Bonaparte)
The French will be as blind and dumb as we were at the time we allowed our law makers to approve the “reorganization” we call The Department of Homeland Security if they accept Sarkozy’s explanation and move forward under his proven incompetence.
That’s what we did with Bush and look where we are now. We rewarded incompetence with more power and even less accountability.
How terribly humorous that we can see it in the French but not in ourselves. But then, like the ever indulgent voting parent, we refuse to accept the fact that our incompetent children are monsters of our own creation.
Very good analysis, Blouise.
Even before these killings, France was a tinder-keg…
influence Nibiru….
Soon enough, we’ll all be considered viewed as potential terrorists by our ‘governments’ and speaking out against anything and everything they do will get us labeled as a Terrorist and subject us to whatever ill they wish to do.
The Founding Fathers would be considered terrorists by own government if they were alive today.
This is scary. I’d be afraid to go to our governments websites after this news.
“Soon enough, we’ll all be considered viewed as potential terrorists by our ‘governments’ and speaking out against anything and everything they do will get us labeled as a Terrorist and subject us to whatever ill they wish to do.” -JCTheBigTree
Yep. And it’s all well underway.
(The following isn’t a surprise, merely confirmation.
NYPD Infiltrated Liberal Political Groups, According To New Documents
Posted: 03/23/2012 8:41 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/nypd-infiltrated-liberal-political-groups_n_1374823.html?ref=new-york&icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D146021 )
Some people visit sites to learn about how to understand, report on, or combat terrorism. In the US, journalists, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and mental health professionals come to mind as groups who have a vested interest in trying to understand the sociopathic mind. So, it’s more than just a “free speech” issue.
SwM
My interp of your granting space ot Harettz assumes that silence implies implicit support of the views proposed. Do you see it so? I’m a beginner still.
To me it was obviously mediaspeak, and most clearly Israeli slanted before the signoff. Things like this:
“But ultimately, even if Merah “only” shared Al-Qaida’s views and was not an integral part of the organization, it is clear that extremist Islam is trying to lash out in order to prove it is still relevant in the wake of the Arab Spring.”
are clear in their origin. It was in toto a perfect example of slick packaging and spin. Little facts, but much message.
That is what we face daily in our media channels.
Thanks anyway for posting it. Don’t know you well, or anyone here, so no prejudice possible; just a reaction to the article with my blinders in place.
Islamist bashing makes me react, as you all may have noticed. But it is all only a reason to analyze, comparing one view with another, no more.
No principles here other than we are all humans, under our religious chains.
MabelMabel,
Am not hip in the area. Could this be a definition of a sociopath?
One who conceives of the world as composed of enemies.
Do revise or complete as needed.
Ernie,
Good point, yours
You can do health visits to NIH, just get youself a sickness first.
.
idealist, Retweets are not endorsements but I thought it was an interesting point of view that was stated responsibly. The situation cannot be explained by taking black or white positions. Achieving the right balance is difficult. From what I saw of Denmark, there is a largely segregated muslim population and virtually no jewish population. It is quite a bit different in France. What is it like in Sweden?
Idealist, I have 400 plus Jewish relatives through marriage. One celebrated her 101st birthday last week. We have a large family tree. Some live in Tel Aviv. Can’t understand why there is no sympathy on here for the mother that lost her children.
Woosty,
thanks for the post, telling in a way, I don’t think either the French guide or the American video commenter understood. Now if it had been a bunch of young muslims having an outdoor party with dancing to western pop, and showing western DVDs etc, I guess that would have delighted them both.
Please understand the Frenchman have Notre Dame, and the muslims the street to do their 5 times a day duty to god. Notre Dame was built with church and state support. Let the Saudis pay for a mosque, or send the muslims home. It is the harvest of French colonies, just as the blacks are.
And it is the same in England. Colonization bears bitter fruit.
The commentator compares their 600 year old barbarism (did he say that word—outrageous if so?) with the 21st century avaiability of info through commercial channels. I suppose the century old forced attendance of at least social reasons to Catholic churchs excaped his notice.
The massing together in an environment where you are not welcome seems a natural outlet in reaction to repression. The muslims definitely seek comfort in being together prostrate in the praise of Allah. Their solidarity in their prayers which I have seen at mosque in Stockhollm is heartwarming to see. The only exhortation I could hear was one to give more to poor people.
The first native Algerians in France were compared to and treated as merde. It has certainly not got better because NA will no longer support the masses there. They don’t want to come to France, but competing at the bottom of their homelands’ economic pyramid is not fun either.
The slinging of Sunni, Shia, and other divisive terms and as convenient terms which can be turned into pejoratives is a well-known tactic.
Reb” Yank! Dem Rep add your own to the list. Hun, chink.
After Vietnam, Americans flying from Japan (as I did) were offered other seating to get away from viewing Vietnamese families on their way to Los Angeles. They were re-uniting with family evacuated as supporters who left by landing boat or helicopter from Saigon. And yet there were those who despised them; just as our soldiers were despised.
Crazy world, and not getting better.
SwM,
I agree, it was a well-done disguised op-ed, imho. Just like the stuff we are fed and conditioned by here in the USA and perhaps Sweden—have tuned out of the news here and am following mostly Turley, It fascinates me. And satisfies my need for being outraged about ineguities.
With your background am looking forward to your views, really, no irony at all. I love jews, some of the world’s best people are jews. I could give you my 20th century list if you like of my favorites. From gay Leonard to the spiritual Alfred. From the biggest balls in Israel to the most corrupt ones in America.
Unfortunately there are too few in Stockholm. No kosher delis that I know of either. Guess could visit the synagogue as I did the mosque, and mingle afterwards.
Denmark evacuated their jews to Sweden from the Nazis. What happened then have no idea. They are very sensitive about retaining their Danishness.
In Stockholm there is no sweat about multi-kulti. 10 percent of the faces I meet on my favo walk are foreign origin residents. They are getting established in spite of cultural resistance.
The jewish familty Bonnier dominates the media world here. Have done a small new and fine modern art museum. Another rich jew has sponsored another since years back, one true vibrant culture center.
But i’m no expert on any of this.
Glad to hear of your large family tree, and the fact you are “family”.
Am sure many arabs, muslim jewish or catholic would enjoy swapping family histories with you—if only we could meet as humans.
Just as my Assyrist Orthodox christians would also with their 500 guest weddings which I’ve written about. A much younger collegue at work some years ago (lebanes) mentioned he would have over 700 guests at his wedding when he went home. Mistreated (certainly) by culturally blind Swedes he expressed disdain in his eyes for their poverty of social anchors in family. I wonder which world is best? You experience both.
As for the mother—-don’t know anything. Was this to do with the terrorist in France? I have to ration my news. I am still fighting my 75 year old obsession in shouldering the problems of the world, acting police, prosecutor, judge, and lawmaker to correct all ills. A not enviable position—am slowly getting it subdued.
If you must, tell me. I am in spite of my verbosity a good listener some say.
SwM,
You say through marriage, then assume you are non-jewish, or are you ignoring your own lineage? I ask solely to make a joke. It is said that to prevent non-jewish mothers inculcating their religions to their children was the main reason that marriage outside of judendom was once forbidden.
Worth a gentle chuckle, or was it gross? The ignorant have much to learn.
I’ve read only 3 books, one by two rabbis as a history, another by a israeli archeologist and a historian proclaiming it all is unfounded in fact, from Egypt and forward, and the third by Nathah Shachar who wrote about the jews of arab dominated Spain and of Toledo.
All fascinating and even worth re-reading.
PS If I strung all my crap together, could I get it published? Yeah, if I paid.
http://www.jewishriverside.com/library/article_cdo/aid/1808989
The mother and wife of the Rabbi and his two sons speaks. You can see pictures of the Rabbi, his two sons, and the little girl who were all shot in the head by this monster. If anyone needs an explanation to the Hebrew words she uses I will be happy to oblige. She clearly is a very strong woman whose deep seated faith in God is keeping her steady and sane in this very difficult time. I think that Issacharoff who is a very successful author is merely voicing his own opinion. I happen to disagree with him. Islamic fundamentalism is tied to terror whether the Arab Spring happened or not. This cretin went to Afghanistan to train with Al-Qaeda, and Sarkozy dropped the ball in a major way here. The first responsibility of any country is to protect its citizens from harm. He clearly is doing two things here:
1. Overcompensating for the clear lack of control he has over the Muslim population in France.Sarkozy is a braggart and a charlatan similar in my eyes to Newt Gingrich. Imagine an incompetent like Newt in control of a country where there are millions of angry Muslims running around.
2. What Blouise said. He is trying to cover his own ass and doing a bad job of it.
Commoner,
This agnostic thanks you for the link and your views.
The mother’s letter provides a beautiful view into Judendom, cloaked in sorrow now. Is that site dedicated to sorrow for departed persons?
I, solely as a human, share her sorrow. Her hopes for a better world through her religious observance is commendable.
However, religion is a divisive factor as we witness the deeds of islamic extremists, even in Stockholm, around the world.
So too, do some of us find the revenge exacted on the Palestinians through Operation Cast Lead, as being beyond the bounds of eye for an eye constraints. Or its embodiment in international law fo war, etc.
But in fairness, spending your night in a shelter because of rocket attacks from Gaza is an awful sight to contemplate.
You write:
“I think that Issacharoff who is a very successful author is merely voicing his own opinion. I happen to disagree with him”
I need to understand this. Can you link me?
As for control of the muslims in France, I think we should be glad that the citizen/immigrant control is so loose that it does not breathe down their necks as it potentially can (and does?) here in USA. However Securité searchs just as our LEO’s do.
Lumping all muslims together with this terrorist extremist cretin
as an example, is the kind of thinking that leads us to this point. We vs Them. Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples? Sad, in which case. I should think that collective damnation is a poor solution to this or other problems.
I share some of your anger and the bad taste in your mouth at the idea of moderation, when your blood calls for revenge. I hope it will cool.
If it does not, then it bodes itl for us all.
I do not condone terrorism, nor suppression to the point of ethnic cleansing:
—-as Israel has done and does in Palestine.
—-as muslim extremists have done all over the world.
Israel controls America’s economy through our israeli/jewish population. The role of ecnnomic controllers, the one per cent , we discuss often here. Putting a jewish label on them does not make them innocent of selfish deeds, nor does it say they are guilty. It is but a fact, which follows the success of the jewish people in following their tribe’s model. Until the world changes its views on “tribe before nation, (and that includes many peoples) then we wiill always have these problems. Both jewish, muslim and hindus, etc..
I will assume you may be observing your sabbath, which may hinder answering me.
“Israel controls America’s economy through our israeli/jewish population.”
I see. So you believe that jews control the world. Nevermind that most jews that I know are the 99% rather than the 1%. Most Israelis that I know are in the moving business. They are not great economists. Arguing that jews are in control is a classic Anti-Semitic sentiment.
“Lumping all muslims together with this terrorist extremist cretin
as an example, is the kind of thinking that leads us to this point. We vs Them. Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples? Sad, in which case. I should think that collective damnation is a poor solution to this or other problems.”
At no time do I lump all Muslims in the terrorist class. I am friendly with Muslims, even some Palestinians. They are not bad people. My statement concerning Islamic fundamentalists is accurate. Those who use religion to kill others are terrorists, it’s that simple.
“Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples”
At no time do I mention revenge. As I stated above, I do not have anything against non-fundamentalist Muslims.
“I do not condone terrorism, nor suppression to the point of ethnic cleansing:
—-as Israel has done and does in Palestine.
—-as muslim extremists have done all over the world.”
Israel has a right to defend itself. It does not target Palestinian civilians, as many Palestinians do target innocent Israeli civilians. Israel is a democratic country that provides equal freedoms to its 1 million Israeli Muslim population as it does to its Israeli Jewish population. Israel does not even have the death penalty. Israel has signed peace treaties and is friendly with various predominantly Muslim countries such as Azerbaijan, Egypt and Jordan. They do not hate Muslims and are not interested in “ethnic cleansing”.
“as muslim extremists have done all over the world”
So….uh…you do agree with me that Islamic fundamentalists are bad.
Good post, commoner.
http://www.alternet.org/world/154677/toulouse_killings_illuminate_salafist-far_right_alliance_in_france The evidence is not that compelling. But, nevertheless, it is being discussed.
SwM
Which one? then to me or the first one on terrorists?
Nice to know where you stand.
idealist, It seems like your remarks about the top 1% crossed the line.
Commoner,
You resemble Tony C. (have you followed his debate with CMC and GeneH?
Tony C, as soon as he sees a trigger word, changes his glasses to a green color, which colors all else he reads as being opposition.
I agree upon reading my post again and yours that I read too much into your post or it would seem confusing it after getting started with the one previously which approved of the video showing disgusting muslims praying in the streets of Paris.
I stand by my comment as to Israel/AIPAC/american jews controlling our economy. I see it in my case as an expression of fact, particularly in the fashion I couched it. See what most see as declared in some documentaries, even friendly ones about jewish women who wish to be cantors in the synagogues which is forbidden apparently. My sources are many but meager. . Am and never have been anti-semitic.
Won’t even take the time to demonstrate so. Have covered it many times before, just recently to SwM in two posts. On being advised of her Jewishness by marriage (?) (still not clear on if she just ignored her own lineage in favor of discussing her husbands?).
How does one approach a declared jew and show ones own position of non-bias. That is my question I pose to myself here. I don’t use status, religion, polical leanings as platforms or causes here.
I have done so successfully with many ME muslims, ME catholics, many ME orthodox, many ME assyriska christians. etc. No problems. Because am an american living in Sweden, which perhaps helps me with those contacts here daily.
But good old America is a different problem. So much have I learned after being away for 40+ years, more or less ignoring the scene there.
So I use caution. But react to what I (incorrectly I admit) felt was a post with anti-muslim slant.
Your line: “This cretin went to Afghanistan to train with Al-Qaeda, and Sarkozy dropped the ball in a major way here. The first responsibility of any country is to protect its citizens from harm.” raised my suspiscion. I questioned if it was outrage behind it, and if revenge lay in your heart. I did not say that either were true. Please note that.
You write:
“…It does not target Palestinian civilians, as many Palestinians do target innocent Israeli civilians. Israel is a democratic country that provides equal freedoms to its 1 million Israeli Muslim population as it does to its Israeli Jewish population…..”
Can’t agree with that, as many Israel resident jews will agree with me—-or rather say I support them as they are on the spot and are jewish.
Operation “Cast Lead” was targeted in large part against the civilian population in the scenes in the videos shown at the time. White phosphorus in cities is a war crime, unequivocably.
I still contend that my words here can be read as consoling and as expressing a question as to how you feel and are motivated—-without pre-judging you.
“We vs Them. Are you consoling yourself with planning revenge on the muslim peoples? Sad, in which case. I should think that collective damnation is a poor solution to this or other problems.
I SHARE some of your anger and the bad taste in your mouth at the idea of moderation, when your blood calls for revenge. I hope it will COOL
If it does not, then it bodes itl for us all.
I DO NOT CONDONE TERRORISM, nor suppression to the point of ethnic cleansing:
—-as Israel has done and does in Palestine.
—-AS MUSLIM EXTREMISTS have done all over the world.”
(my emphasis now)
Hope that helps you better understand my position.
I am opposed to all forms of violence. Even war.
Negotiate until we die. Better that than a single life lost to aggression.
Israel lost the PR war when the suicide attacks ended. Ironlically, that was due to your control measures. Which is part of the stroke-stricken Prime Minister’s baloney strategy, ie slice the Palestines thin, and we win in time. Or what say you. You should be better informed. I’m just a bystander, in a country where the jewish Bonnier family controls media, and has been donators of class.
SwM.
Then let me present the following:
I wrote to Commoner this which you question:
“Israel controls America’s economy through our israeli/jewish population. The role of ecnnomic controllers, the one per cent , we discuss often here. Putting a jewish label on them does not make them innocent of selfish deeds, nor does it say they are guilty. It is but a fact, which follows the success of the jewish people in following their tribe’s model. Until the world changes its views on “tribe before nation, (and that includes many peoples) then we wiill always have these problems. Both jewish, muslim and hindus, etc..”
I see how you thought I meant that the top one percent (or xx percent) were jews. I meant that jews are able to influence our economy to the point that our President and our top (R) candidates visit AIPAC declaring their loyalty to Israed WITHOUT RESERVE. They give Israel carte blance, a blank check already signed.
I see no reason for that except it is an expression of political (hardly in numbers, but do correct me) numbers or expression of economic power.
OT, how did a numbskull, smart but numbskull, like Bernanke get to be FED chief?. He said just like George and his predecessor at his office that an unregulated market was best, particularly for CDs.
So it is not anti-semitism when I see and repeat what I see as demonstrable and reasonable fact. It’s not friend or foe. It is facts I’m after.
And any facts you can provide in this sensitive subject are VERY welcome.
As for anti-semitism, where do you jews get off using that. Just realizing that you are not the only semites in the ME. And correctly we can’t call all arabs muslims either. They’re are other religions there within that “racial” designation.
The jews have kept to themselves over the centurieds and well that.
They provide us with a wellspring of talent in the past and today.
Not many match them.
I wish you would go look earlier for this post, read it entirely, and still tell me I intentionally stepped over a line and insulted the jews.
That post breathes tolerance and love of all mankind, and expresses my wish for a chance to approach jews, as it is for other ME origin people.
Not from above, but as equals. See below for an excerpt at the beginning.
“….With your background am looking forward to your views, really, no irony at all. I love jews, some of the world’s best people are jews. I could give you my 20th century list if you like of my favorites. From gay Leonard to the spiritual Alfred. From the biggest balls in Israel to the most corrupt ones in America.
Unfortunately there are too few in Stockholm. No kosher delis that I know of either. Guess could visit the synagogue as I did the mosque, and mingle afterwards…..”
I went on to answer your questions on Denmark, jews in Sweden, etc.
Hope I have helped our relationship, and patched any ruptures caused by ill advised formulations.
idealist I did not accuse you of being an an anti-semite. I do not believe that you hate Jews. However, your stance concerning the jews and power, money etc. is an anti-semitic position. There are many who WOULD consider you a bigot and a stereo-typist for saying something like that or perhaps even a full-blown anti-semite. I do believe that your statement is idiotic and non-factual. As I stated before, most jews that I know are in the 99%, and I know many more jews than you do, from all walks of life. You bring America’s support for Israel and AIPAC as proof that jews control the world. AIPAC is largely a response to the remarkably strong Arab Lobby. By your logic, the Arabs may be considered to control the world. After all, they have a powerful lobbying group as well! You bring the white phosphorus incidents as proof that Israel targets civilians. Israel has never targeted civilians. The Human Rights Watch, headed by a jew by the way (you see, even they are controlled by the jews!), is a major critic of Israel and brought up the phosphorus issue. Israel was not firing white phosphorus shells at Palestinian civilians. They were firing phosphorus smoke screens to cover troop movements during the “Gaza War” in 08-09. The US provided these shells for that purpose. They actually worked quite nicely. At no time was it proven that Israel has targeted civilians. The Palestinian Hamas likes to fire rockets from crowded civilian areas even schools as seen in the video below. They hope to provoke a response and create an international incident. Note that Hamas IS targeting civilians. Hamas also likes to fire rockets in the early morning, so they can kill children heading to school. Israel provides services like water and electricity to the people who are chucking bombs at them.
As Groundskeeper Willie would say … “Cheese eating surrender monkeys” every one of em.
Commoner,
In other words, keep your opinions /stance to yourself or we will accuse you of forwarding an anti-semitic position which also is bigoted, non-factual and idiotic.
Where did you study that debate technique? Babylon? No, Jerusalem in ca 200 BCE, I think. Saw a good program on the Talmud’s development which gave that fact about the two first schools.
Oh well, arguing facts with you is perhaps meaningless when you reply with abuse. You are like our friend Tony C. who wants the others to run, and does not see that that makes him a bully. Which may be your mission too.. Is it?
Thanks for the point about the Arab lobby. Saw some figures that the Saudies alone employ up in the 100 in Washington, or so. And Egypt wants to keep our money coming in (as does the CIA). And as someone pointed out, the Gulf States are terrified of Iran and the Shias, and want the USA to protect them. Of course as long as the oil flows we will.
Your stance, would seem to be in reaction to abuse, either personal or tribal/religious. Do you know yourself? Why was fulfilling the “next year Jerusalem” so important that almost 2,000 years of diaspora meant no diminshing of that resolve?
Hope we can have a good exchange of ideas without rancor or mud-slinging.
Up to you—or have I stepped on your toes again?
Thoughtcrime.
A slew of new polls conducted on the French presidential election shows Socialist Party candidate Francois Hollande building a lead ahead there ahead of the first ballots are cast. France uses a two round system, which is an open contest in the first round (set for April 22nd), and if no candidate gets over 50 percent of the vote, the top two candidates move on to the second round (May 6th). Polls show that Hollande and current French President Nicolas Sarkozy are likely to move on to the second round, where Hollande has a large lead. From Bloomberg:
[Hollande and Sarkozy] addressed supporters in Paris yesterday with Hollande extending his advantage in a head-to-head race by two points to 56 percent against 44 percent, according to a TNS Sofres survey on April 13. The challenger took the lead in the 10-person first round set for April 22. A CSA poll on April 12 put the gap at 57-43, up from eight points two weeks ago.